NationStates Jolt Archive

Reflections on Government

1) Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress.
But I repeat myself.
............Mark Twain

2) I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity
is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself
up by the handle.
........Winston Churchill

3) A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul.
.............George Bernard Shaw

4) A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow
man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.
............G. Gordon Liddy

5) Democracy must be something more than two wolves
and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
.............James Bovard, Civil Libertarian (1994)

6) Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from
poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries.
.......Douglas Casey, Classmate of Bill Clinton at Georgetown University

7) Giving money and power to government is like giving
whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
................P.J O'Rourke, Civil Libertarian

8) Government is the great fiction, through which everybody
endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
..........Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)

9) Government's view of the economy could be summed up
in a few short phrases:
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
.........Ronald Reagan (1986)

10) I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and
report the facts.
..............Will Rogers

11) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until
you see what it costs when it's free.
.........P.J. O'Rourke

12) In general, the art of government consists in taking as
much money as possible from one party of the citizens
to give to the other.
........Voltaire (1764)

13) Just because you do not take an interest in politics
doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
.........Pericles (430 B.C.)

14) No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the
legislature is in session.
....Mark Twain (1866)

15) Talk is cheap ... except when Congress does it.
.....Unknown

16) The government is like a baby's alimentary canal,
with a happy appetite at one end and no responsibility
at the other.
........Ronald Reagan

17) The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing
of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is
the equal sharing of misery.
......Winston Churchill

18) The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist
is that the taxidermist leaves the skin.
.....Mark Twain

19) The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of
folly is to fill the world with fools.
.......Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

20) There is no distinctly native American criminal class...
save Congress.
.....Mark Twain

21) What this country needs are more unemployed politicians.
.......Edward Langley, Artist (1928 - 1995)

22) A government big enough to give you everything you
want, is strong enough to take everything you have.
........Thomas Jefferson

11) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until
you see what it costs when it's free.
.........P.J. O'Rourke

Britain spends less per capita on healthcare than Americans. By far. :)

Britain spends less per capita on healthcare than Americans. By far. :)

Yes....and the quality of the care shows too. Plus there is not a horde of lawyers like John Edwards out there waiting to sue at the drop of a hat either.

Yes....and the quality of the care shows too. Plus there is not a horde of lawyers like John Edwards out there waiting to sue at the drop of a hat either.

The NHS is a perfectly adequate service. Most of its problems can be attributed to the stranglehold of beaurocracy dumped on it by the Conservatives. Labour is cutting waiting times, and improving the quality of healthcare.
The US health system is far from perfect.

The NHS is a perfectly adequate service. Most of its problems can be attributed to the stranglehold of beaurocracy dumped on it by the Conservatives. Labour is cutting waiting times, and improving the quality of healthcare.
The US health system is far from perfect.

Especially if you're poor

The NHS is a perfectly adequate service. Most of its problems can be attributed to the stranglehold of beaurocracy dumped on it by the Conservatives. Labour is cutting waiting times, and improving the quality of healthcare.
The US health system is far from perfect.

You are right, the US system is FAR from perfect.....but when I lived in the UK and visited a friend in the hospital there was freaking mold growing in the grout between the tiles on the walls. The equipment was ancient and had quite a bit of rust on it. Maybe things have changed since then. Socialized medicine is very inefficient. Governments do not good managers make.

*sigh* You can find mold growing on the grout in US hospitals too. While there are horror stories about managed health care systems in other countries, everyone from those countries that I've ever spoken to seems to vastly prefer their system to ours. If you're extremely wealthy, the health care in this country is fantastic. If you're not, it sucks. And it sucks exponentially worse the poorer you are.

*sigh* You can find mold growing on the grout in US hospitals too. While there are horror stories about managed health care systems in other countries, everyone from those countries that I've ever spoken to seems to vastly prefer their system to ours. If you're extremely wealthy, the health care in this country is fantastic. If you're not, it sucks. And it sucks exponentially worse the poorer you are.

Socialized medicine results in long lines for non life threatening treatments. My ex wife is 1/2 English and her mothers family lives in the UK. Her aunt needed hip surgery....and it took 7 years for her to get the treatment she needed. Had she been here in the US she would have gotten it taken care of within a week. 7 years is a long time to be in pain unnecessarily I think, but thats just me. So to say that the treatment was free is a misnomer as it cost her 7 years of pain.

Socialized medicine results in long lines for non life threatening treatments. My ex wife is 1/2 English and her mothers family lives in the UK. Her aunt needed hip surgery....and it took 7 years for her to get the treatment she needed. Had she been here in the US she would have gotten it taken care of within a week. 7 years is a long time to be in pain unnecessarily I think, but thats just me. So to say that the treatment was free is a misnomer as it cost her 7 years of pain.

Again, I preempted your argument. Yes, there are horror stories. There are worse horror stories about treatment in the US. Remember, more people lack health insurance in this country than did 4 years ago. And a higher percentage of people lack health insurance as well. That means no coverage at all...not just long lines. While a 7 year wait is obviously unacceptable, I sincerely doubt that the majority of people have that happen to them. Using one example to prove a generalization is a logical fallacy.

Socialized medicine results in long lines for non life threatening treatments.

And capitalised medicine [Medicine?] results in a huge swathe of your population having no medical care.

Limited capacity gets rationed one way or another. You can ration by price, or you can ration by medical necessity. Personally I think our system is fairer.

so why do you need to socialize medicine at the federal level? Why can't you just let states decide whether they want to socialize it for themselves rather than impose it on the entire nation?

so why do you need to socialize medicine at the federal level? Why can't you just let states decide whether they want to socialize it for themselves rather than impose it on the entire nation?

Exactly!! The same with education. We spend more on education at the Federal level than we do anything else. Get rid of the Dept. of Education and other useless departments and bring some sanity to the government.

We spend more on education at the Federal level than we do anything else.

no. you are thinking of defense, health and human services, social security, and debt service. you want to deal with useless federal expenditures, cut defense spending by 50-75%. you'd still be spending more than anyone else in the world. and then you pay off the debt.

Exactly!! The same with education. We spend more on education at the Federal level than we do anything else. Get rid of the Dept. of Education and other useless departments and bring some sanity to the government.

Wow. Just wow. I guess living in a fantasy world where you make up facts about spending makes it much easier to support Bush. I gotta ask...where did your "more on education" figures come from? Please share.

Wow. Just wow. I guess living in a fantasy world where you make up facts about spending makes it much easier to support Bush. I gotta ask...where did your "more on education" figures come from? Please share.

Education Spending..... 373 BILLION

Total expenditures made by school districts came to nearly $382 billion in the 1999–2000 school year.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/education/archive/doe_education_spending.shtml

Defense Spending....355.1 BILLION

http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/defense_spending.shtml

Same time period....same budget. Hi!!

Education Spending..... 373 BILLION

Total expenditures made by school districts came to nearly $382 billion in the 1999–2000 school year.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/education/archive/doe_education_spending.shtml

Defense Spending....355.1 BILLION

http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/defense_spending.shtml

Same time period....same budget. Hi!!
Actually, it looks like they aren't the same time period, unless I missed something.
Defense spending was for 2003 and education spending was 1999-2000. I don't know all that much about government budgets so I might be off base.

Education Spending..... 373 BILLION

Total expenditures made by school districts came to nearly $382 billion in the 1999–2000 school year.

http://www.policyalmanac.org/education/archive/doe_education_spending.shtml

Defense Spending....355.1 BILLION

http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/defense_spending.shtml

Same time period....same budget. Hi!!

A quote from the first link you posted:

"By far, the greatest part of education revenues came from nonfederal sources (state, intermediate, and local governments), which together provided about $346 billion, or 92.7 percent of all revenues. The federal government contribution to education revenues made up the remaining $27 billion."

Hi! Still enjoying life in that fantasy land?

I expect a public retraction and apology for trying to mislead us based on massively inadequate research on your part.

Yes....and the quality of the care shows too. Plus there is not a horde of lawyers like John Edwards out there waiting to sue at the drop of a hat either.Find a case--any fucking case--that Edwards tried that was frivolous and the victim didn't deserve the damages. Just try. Because if the Republican attack machine couldn't do it, then you can't either, and I'll bet money on that.

And while you're at it, look up the record of your caniddate for the Florida Senate, Mel Martinez and see if you can do the same with him.

A quote from the first link you posted:

"By far, the greatest part of education revenues came from nonfederal sources (state, intermediate, and local governments), which together provided about $346 billion, or 92.7 percent of all revenues. The federal government contribution to education revenues made up the remaining $27 billion."

The fact remains, we spend more on education than we do defense. Regardless of where the money comes from, it all comes from the tax payers.

The fact remains, we spend more on education than we do defense. Regardless of where the money comes from, it all comes from the tax payers.

Wow. You get flat out busted about your claim that the federal government should dissolve the department of education because it spends more on education that we do on defense, and you can't even admit that you were 100% wrong in that claim. Instead, you try to again shift the focus of the debate onto something that you think you're correct about. However, you're not even correct about that. Once you factor in intelligence and homeland security budgets, federal defense spending is STILL higher than education spending, even including all the non-federal revenue that goes into education.

You know, before this, I could still respect your opinion and just agree that we disagree, but you've crossed the line into outright propaganda, and that, I refuse to tolerate.

Government is, at best, a necessary evil.

no. you are thinking of defense, health and human services, social security, and debt service. you want to deal with useless federal expenditures, cut defense spending by 50-75%. you'd still be spending more than anyone else in the world. and then you pay off the debt.

http://www.GrowthDebt.com/

Find a case--any fucking case--that Edwards tried that was frivolous and the victim didn't deserve the damages. Just try. Because if the Republican attack machine couldn't do it, then you can't either, and I'll bet money on that.

And while you're at it, look up the record of your caniddate for the Florida Senate, Mel Martinez and see if you can do the same with him.

"My" candidate? My party does not have anyone running for Senate from my state.

Wow. You get flat out busted about your claim that the federal government should dissolve the department of education because it spends more on education that we do on defense, and you can't even admit that you were 100% wrong in that claim. Instead, you try to again shift the focus of the debate onto something that you think you're correct about. However, you're not even correct about that. Once you factor in intelligence and homeland security budgets, federal defense spending is STILL higher than education spending, even including all the non-federal revenue that goes into education.

You know, before this, I could still respect your opinion and just agree that we disagree, but you've crossed the line into outright propaganda, and that, I refuse to tolerate.

Homeland Security does not fall under the Dept. of Defense.

Homeland Security does not fall under the Dept. of Defense.

You're right. That's why it's not included in the DoD budgetary appropriations. But homeland security is just as relevant to "defense spending" as intelligence funding and money to military contractors. Still waiting for you to admit that your original claim was false...

"My" candidate? My party does not have anyone running for Senate from my state.
Claim all you want about being a libertarian--you're supporting the Republican candidate for President, and that links you with the party overall. I'm talking about Mel Martinez.

Homeland Security does not fall under the Dept. of Defense.

nor do local school boards fall under the dept. of education

Find a case--any fucking case--that Edwards tried that was frivolous and the victim didn't deserve the damages. Just try. Because if the Republican attack machine couldn't do it, then you can't either, and I'll bet money on that.

And while you're at it, look up the record of your caniddate for the Florida Senate, Mel Martinez and see if you can do the same with him.
Ok, don't let this get personal. Because it isn't.

As for cases.. how about the 20+ cerebral palsy cases? Even when confronted with evidence he used junk science, he didn't refute it. He used his skill at arguing to sway juries despite the evidence. This has had unfortunate results in the medical world. Medical malpractice insurance rates have risen to the point where doctors are relocating causing a shortage of certain specialities.

All this to line Edwards pockets.

Still waiting for you admitting you were incorrect. At least have the guts to stand up and say you were wrong. Or are you taking your cue from the current administration, Biff?

Claim all you want about being a libertarian--you're supporting the Republican candidate for President, and that links you with the party overall. I'm talking about Mel Martinez.

I don't know anything about Mel Martinez. I doubt I will vote for him anyway. I am supporting Bush over Kerry...but that is more a vote AGAINST Kerry. I wish there was a "none of the above" choice.

nor do local school boards fall under the dept. of education

Actually they do...they have to answer to state boards who answer to the Federal Dept. By eliminating the Dept. of Education we could get rid of the vast number of federal employees and cut down on the budget.

Still waiting for you admitting you were incorrect. At least have the guts to stand up and say you were wrong. Or are you taking your cue from the current administration, Biff?

I was not wrong...the US does spend more on education than we do defense. Defense is what, 5% of the GNP? Hardly the largest expense. The Soviet Union at it's height was spending 20% of their GNP on defense.

I was not wrong...the US does spend more on education than we do defense. Defense is what, 5% of the GNP? Hardly the largest expense. The Soviet Union at it's height was spending 20% of their GNP on defense.

How do you like your crow?

Exactly!! The same with education. We spend more on education at the Federal level than we do anything else.

(note the phrase "Federal level")

Followed by a quote from your own source:

"By far, the greatest part of education revenues came from nonfederal sources (state, intermediate, and local governments), which together provided about $346 billion, or 92.7 percent of all revenues. The federal government contribution to education revenues made up the remaining $27 billion."

$27 billion is NOT greater than $350+ billion, is it?

Now, admit you were wrong in your original claim, or tacitly confess to being a propaganda-spewing spin doctor for your own political agenda.

How do you like your crow?



(note the phrase "Federal level")

Followed by a quote from your own source:

"By far, the greatest part of education revenues came from nonfederal sources (state, intermediate, and local governments), which together provided about $346 billion, or 92.7 percent of all revenues. The federal government contribution to education revenues made up the remaining $27 billion."

$27 billion is NOT greater than $350+ billion, is it?

Now, admit you were wrong in your original claim, or tacitly confess to being a propaganda-spewing spin doctor for your own political agenda.


Wow...I guess I was wrong when I put the word "federal" in there...however, I am right that we do spend (waste) more money on education than we do on defense.

Yes....and the quality of the care shows too. Plus there is not a horde of lawyers like John Edwards out there waiting to sue at the drop of a hat either.

Damn that greedy bastard Edwards for suing that company on behalf of that girl!

She should have known better that the machine used on her had a bad history that the company was hiding!

It was her fault it sucked out her intestines(if I remember right).

:rolleyes:

Wow...I guess I was wrong when I put the word "federal" in there...however, I am right that we do spend (waste) more money on education than we do on defense.

only if you include non-dept of education money. at which point, in order to be consistent, you have to include all defense spending. which means the dept of defense, homeland security, intelligence, federal law enforcement, some parts of federal and state depts of transportation, some parts of local and state law enforcement, state guard forces, state homeland security, etc.

who wants to take bets on which comes out bigger then?

Ok, don't let this get personal. Because it isn't.

As for cases.. how about the 20+ cerebral palsy cases? Even when confronted with evidence he used junk science, he didn't refute it. He used his skill at arguing to sway juries despite the evidence. This has had unfortunate results in the medical world. Medical malpractice insurance rates have risen to the point where doctors are relocating causing a shortage of certain specialities.

All this to line Edwards pockets.


Then maybe the solution is to stop allowing insurence to line thier pockets by punishing good doctors for the actions of the bad doctors?

only if you include non-dept of education money. at which point, in order to be consistent, you have to include all defense spending. which means the dept of defense, homeland security, intelligence, federal law enforcement, some parts of federal and state depts of transportation, some parts of local and state law enforcement, state guard forces, state homeland security, etc.

who wants to take bets on which comes out bigger then?

Homeland Security falls under a different Dept. If you put the DoD and our education budgets side by side....we spend more on education than defense. Defense is always the first thing people want to cut because that F-15 costs $30,000,000 and THAT will buy a lot of textbooks!! Yet, when looked at, we can cut just as much if not more from education and get along just fine. But what politician wants to be known as the guy who caused our kids to miss out on something. Funny though...education has declined quite a bit over the past 40 years yet the military is far more efficient and advanced. What could we learn from this?

Wow...I guess I was wrong when I put the word "federal" in there...however, I am right that we do spend (waste) more money on education than we do on defense.

Thank you for admitting your original error.

As for the rest of the statement, "waste" is a highly subjective phrase. Additionally, you say "education" (and include ALL sources of funding) and "defense" (but don't include sources like homeland security, intelligence funding, counterterrorism, state militias and state guard units, etc). That all brings the budget up over what is spent on education, even at all levels of the government.

Homeland Security falls under a different Dept. If you put the DoD and our education budgets side by side....we spend more on education than defense. Defense is always the first thing people want to cut because that F-15 costs $30,000,000 and THAT will buy a lot of textbooks!! Yet, when looked at, we can cut just as much if not more from education and get along just fine. But what politician wants to be known as the guy who caused our kids to miss out on something. Funny though...education has declined quite a bit over the past 40 years yet the military is far more efficient and advanced. What could we learn from this?

Spending more: answered above.

Lots of politicians (including this one) cut funding for our children. And our military is more advanced now? I thought Clinton had singlehandedly reduced us to sabers and horses.

Thank you for admitting your original error.

As for the rest of the statement, "waste" is a highly subjective phrase. Additionally, you say "education" (and include ALL sources of funding) and "defense" (but don't include sources like homeland security, intelligence funding, counterterrorism, state militias and state guard units, etc). That all brings the budget up over what is spent on education, even at all levels of the government.

Only DoD is figured into the "defense" budget. National Guard units are paid for in part by the states, they report to the governor unless activated. Their budgets also fall partly under the DoD so "some" money comes from the DoD. Homeland security is a seperate agancy and they have their own budget. Same with the FBI, CIA, TSA, etc.

I stand by my assertion regardless of how you want to spin it. We DO spend more for education than we do for defense.

Spending more: answered above.

Lots of politicians (including this one) cut funding for our children. And our military is more advanced now? I thought Clinton had singlehandedly reduced us to sabers and horses.

I must not have been clear. The "quality" of education has declined despite the vast amounts spent on it. A high school diploma from the 60's is worth a BA today. Go figure....

Only DoD is figured into the "defense" budget. National Guard units are paid for in part by the states, they report to the governor unless activated. Their budgets also fall partly under the DoD so "some" money comes from the DoD. Homeland security is a seperate agancy and they have their own budget. Same with the FBI, CIA, TSA, etc.

I stand by my assertion regardless of how you want to spin it. We DO spend more for education than we do for defense.

Dude, you include funding from non-governmental agencies in "education", but don't include state spending on national guard units? And don't include intelligence sources? How convenient for your argument. I suppose the CIA and NSA don't give their reports to the military either. Does your "education" budget include sources for college education? Cause that is EASILY analagous to CIA/FBI/NSA/Homeland Security budgets.

Dude, you include funding from non-governmental agencies in "education", but don't include state spending on national guard units? And don't include intelligence sources? How convenient for your argument. I suppose the CIA and NSA don't give their reports to the military either. Does your "education" budget include sources for college education? Cause that is EASILY analagous to CIA/FBI/NSA/Homeland Security budgets.

Education spending in the US is greater than defense spending....you want to add college costs and support then it would be double or triple what is spent on defense.

Education spending in the US is greater than defense spending....you want to add college costs and support then it would be double or triple what is spent on defense.

Even if I conceded ALL of your arguments (which I don't, because none of your figures include state funding for "defense", even by your own definition), you'd still have at most a 20-some billion differential in 2001. Bush has no impact on state spending on education, so he can hardly be credited with states spending on education. Additionally, think about it this way...if the federal government spends more on defense than any other single thing, it's more concerned with defending itself than it is concerned with WHAT IT IS DEFENDING. That seems to be me to be a case of misplaced priorities, particularly when you keep conceding my arguments about military graft and waste among contractors.

Additionally, you wanna post some figures that back you up (and the sources? I bet I can read them for 10 seconds and find the stuff you never read or intentionally left out)?