NationStates Jolt Archive

I do.

I believe that A Jesus existed...not as a God.

I beleave!
Hehehe.
Just kidding.
Nice typo.

I most certanly do, given I am a Christian.

He works at the cafeteria at my office.

Nice guy, English could use a bit of work. Makes a mean egg salad.

Not in the slightest.Nor do I believe in the Christian God or Satan.

Jesus cuts my lawn. And is God.

Not really, no. But I'm a cynical bastard.

Which one? Salazar, or Aguilar? Personally, I think they're both dicks, but I really can't deny their existence.

I believe in Jeebus. :p

Seriously though I do believe in Jesus.

He may have existed, but I do not consider him to be anywhere near a god at all.

He existed.

Cheesus?

Cheesus?
Hey! That reminds me: We didn't get the cheese curds we ordered tonight! Those filthy bastards!

I just love contributing something to the discussion...

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.

"Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sif! Of course they would!

I mean, I don't think Jesus was a fraud, I think he was a good man who let his followers get a bit out of hand as opposed to a god, but honestly, how naive is it to assume a tradition is right just because it's so old?

It's like saying "I keep a cheese sandwhcih above our door. My family has been doing it for twenty generations. I don't know why, but there must be a good reason, otherwise we wouldn't keep doing it, would we?"

Nope :-) (well as a person i think he existed, but not as a god :-) )

Also to RomeW - do you beleive in the Hindu Pantheon? Mohummad (sp) as the final prophet of god? If not why not, if so how do you reconcile these disparete believes?

Not as a God.

You bet I've studied many religions in depth and the Jesus movement is the only one I keep coming back to. I keep trying to disprove it but I can't. Even the Virgin birth has explantions in science. Only God could take science, religion and history and work through those mediums to create a perfect human which demonstrated the maximum potential of a human being. Different humans have achieved the some of the "miracles" of Jesus such as healing and prophecy but no human has ever existed or will ever exist again that is without sin and demonstrates ALL the wisdom and powers the human body perfected can achieve. I have no other choice than to believe that Jesus really is the Chosen Messiah and because of this I follow His teachings.

I do believe Jesus existed, but as a religious teacher (with two normal human parents), not as a god or the son of god. I also don't believe in any of the tales surrounding his conception, birth, the miracles he supposedly performed, or the resurrection.

is there some kind of point here that i'm missing?

"Jesus" is the latin version of the greek "jesse" which was a fairly common name 2000 years ago around Judea.

it's STILL a pretty common name en el mundo hispanohablante. tho granted, for different reasons.

the question of whether some guy named jesus actually existed is totally irrelevant to the religious and political history which has proceeded from the assumption of his existence. MANY Jesuses existed, and that's not what you're asking. unless your plan is to gloat about how saved and christian you are (in itself a rather unchristian behavior) then what's the fuckin' point?

I most certainly do, but it is not just a matter of whether or not you believe in Jesus, hell........Lucifer believes in Jesus!

He might have existed, but he got lucky to get his cult to take off like it did..

Not even a little.

I heard a nice random fact once:

7% of Jews, at the time of Christ, were named Jesus.

I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, who came down to Earth from Heaven to save of from our sins. I believe he died on the cross and on the third day was ressurected.
I'd like somebody who believes Jesus was only a man to answer (civily and politly) me this.
If Jesus was not God and he went are around telling people to trust their very souls in him, how could he be a good moral man? Anyone who did that and knew that he was not God would be eviler then Hitler.

Jesus certainly had no interest in earthly power(and certainly could have had it). The New Testament states this many, many times. He was on another mission. He didn't encourage violence in His name or forced conversions. He came with a simple message that religion and the path to Heaven was no longer about the Law but about Faith.

I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, who came down to Earth from Heaven to save of from our sins. I believe he died on the cross and on the third day was ressurected.
I'd like somebody who believes Jesus was only a man to answer (civily and politly) me this.
If Jesus was not God and he went are around telling people to trust their very souls in him, how could he be a good moral man? Anyone who did that and knew that he was not God would be eviler then Hitler.

Please don't be offended by the following, its not a jibe at religion.

That just it, we don't really know anything about him, not even if he really existed.
All we know is what comes from the Bible, and that by its very nature (a religious book ), is unreliable, as it was originally written by religious men to spread the word and convert people to the new religion. It is very hard in religious books to tell the facts from the religious "embellishments". There are'nt any other sources of information on Jesus at all.
We have no way of knowing how much about Jesus in the bible is fact, and how much is fiction.
A bit of a comparision, is hollywood movie stars. They have one image that we see, thats projected to the public, and we believe that image. What they are really like in private, that we never see, is usually very different. Not a perfect comparision, but the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment.

Eh, he probebly bummed around at some time or another. Not divine though.

pronounced Jee-zus or Hey-zeus?

I've met quite a few of the latter, nice hispanic chaps.

the first sort I've never found as down-to-earth.

I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, who came down to Earth from Heaven to save of from our sins. I believe he died on the cross and on the third day was ressurected.
I'd like somebody who believes Jesus was only a man to answer (civily and politly) me this.
If Jesus was not God and he went are around telling people to trust their very souls in him, how could he be a good moral man? Anyone who did that and knew that he was not God would be eviler then Hitler.


Let me ask you this:

How do you know he didnt say those things, and his followers wrote texts that fabricated and re-wrote much of what he supposedly said?

There's a guy down the street named Jesus Sanchez, so I guess I do believe in Jesus, 'though not as a diety.

No, but myths are fun.

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.


oooohh, love that point.

I BELIEVE

If jesus was smart, it would be perfectly feasible for him to give people the idea that he was the messiah (which a lot of other people at the time were doing, incidentally) in order to get them to actually listen to the admittedly sensible and good things he had to say.

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.

What? you believe in Jesus because 1 billion other people do? I'm assuming that you weren't around in the 60s, because then you would have been a communist and believed in Chairman mao, right?

There's a guy down the street named Jesus Sanchez, so I guess I do believe in Jesus, 'though not as a diety.

typos abound in this super thread. I believe in Jesus as a diety. His flesh and blood have so few calories, but they fill ya right up.

What? you believe in Jesus because 1 billion other people do? I'm assuming that you weren't around in the 60s, because then you would have been a communist and believed in Chairman mao, right?

Mao lasted 2000 years?!?!?

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.

A billion people can't be wrong? Dolt! Of course they could! Plenty, maybe even most of the people in the Middle Ages believed the Earth was flat. [Besides, by your numbers argument, 4 billion OTHER people DON'T believe Jesus was the son of God, so surely they win?]

Jesus [Latin] = Iesu [Greek] = YSHU [Hebrew] = Joshua. So yes, probably a good proportion of 1st century Jews were called Joshua/Jesus. However, this particular one seems to have made quite an impression, so it would be probably incautious by historical standards to write off his actual existence. However, since we only have one source for his life and actions, which are not written as a historical record but as a demonstration of how THEY BELIEVED he had fulfilled ancient prophecies and so was the Messiah/Christos/Annointed One, it would also be incautious to take too much on trust. After all, presumably the majority of Jews DIDN'T believe he was the Messiah, since they carried on being orthodox Jews [back to RomeW and his numbers game again...]

Mao lasted 2000 years?!?!?

sure he did.

Meh.

I belive that Buddah, Jesus, and Mohommed were prophets of God; None are God, however, in my opinion.

Jesus is as real as Santa.

Jesus is as real as Santa.
And don't you forget it, or it'll be coal for your christmas present.

A billion people can't be wrong? Dolt! Of course they could! Plenty, maybe even most of the people in the Middle Ages believed the Earth was flat. [Besides, by your numbers argument, 4 billion OTHER people DON'T believe Jesus was the son of God, so surely they win?]



I have never seen any evidence that in the middle ages, people thought the world was flat. It is obvious that the world is a sphere, and the Latin for the world is "orbis terrarum", or "sphere of lands/earth".

Still, I used to be a christian, but now you've pointed out that I've been outnumbered all along, I've converted to all the other religions put together.

No.

Buddha has more adherents worldwide then Jesus or Muhammad. That doesn't mean I believe in Buddha. Ficticious gods are banned in my Nationstate and I wiould have it they be banned in my true nation as well. Alas, I fear those who are objective about such things are a rare minority in this country.

I don't beleave I might believe though
Interesting thought. The word believe has the word lie in the middle.

I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God! In my belief system, he really does exist. Of course, I don't really care very much about him. I'm too busy building a relationship with various other hallucinations and those Celtic deities who like to hang around. If he ever wants a chat, thats fine by me. But he'd have to do it on my terms.

I believe!

Turn or Burn!

Someone died for our sins, man that sure makes me think, I would be going to hell or get a bit to hot in the fire furnaces of hell if it weren't for that guy. If wants to talk, he talks, if I do my own thing afterwards, I keep an eye for the whale which might come and swallow me up!!!

Absolutly existed

There is more historical data on this person then there is on Julius Caesar.

...

"Cato didn't exist! There were plenty of people named Cato who wanted to destroy Carthage back in the Roman Republic!"

I don't beleave I might believe though
Interesting thought. The word believe has the word lie in the middle.

And that would be relevant how? :) :(

There is more historical data on this person then there is on Julius Caesar.

...

"Cato didn't exist! There were plenty of people named Cato who wanted to destroy Carthage back in the Roman Republic!"

Rome is my thing, so I guess I ought to field this.

There is probably more historical material about Julius Caesar than any person in the Ancient world, several books of it written by the man himself. There are letters, speeches, memoirs, plays, poems, stone tablets which we can still examine carved at the time, coins, reports in other countries (Egypt, Greece), treasury records, and several histories written using priveliged access to state records within years of the man's death. He also had an acknowledged heir who took care to preserve his adopted father's memory.

Now all of these people (Caesar himself especially) had personal axes to grind. But the fact that we have so much, from so many differing viewpoints, all talking about the same events, means we can piece together much of his life with some confidence (not all - there is still doubt as to whether he was born in 102BC or 100BC, for instance). The bias of the sources tends to cancel out.

There are four accounts of Jesus, and some letters.
Three of the four accounts are believed to come from a single source. That makes two accounts, which differ considerably in detail and emphasis. There are a dozen letters written by someone who had never met him.
All of these come from one small group of people - the early Christian Church, who had a vested interest in presenting Jesus in a particular light. There are NO records from Roman sources, or Jewish official sources, which might corroborate or shed light on matters. There are NO primary historical artifacts like coins, inscribed tablets etc, just books that have been copied and recopied down the centuries, through different languages, possibly accruing all manner of later stories and mistranslations as they go.

Bad example.

Cato the Elder is a better example. But on the other hand, we do at least know Rome went to war with Carthage. We know nothing about Jesus except what his devotees chose to tell us.

And don't you forget it, or it'll be coal for your christmas present.
hey man, i know how the game is played...BOW DOWN BEFORE OUR LOVING GOD OR HE WILL CAST YOU INTO A LAKE OF MOLTEN SULFER TO BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY!!! HE'S SO LOVING THAT HE LETS HIS OWN CHILDREN BE TORTURED TO DEATH!!! CAN'T YOU FEEL THE LOVE?!!!

God is as upfront with the contract as Santa: be good or you get the shaft.

i always figured that the horrible death of Jesus was God's best threat; think about it, if that's what He will do to His OWN kid, then just imagine what He will do to YOURS.

Well I guess I didn't really know what I was typing down then. I thought there was a lot less material on Caesar. At least I know which is the Elder now for sure.

But about the books in the New Testament. Earlier versions have been found and the texts have changed very little.

hey man, i know how the game is played...BOW DOWN BEFORE OUR LOVING GOD OR HE WILL CAST YOU INTO A LAKE OF MOLTEN SULFER TO BURN FOR ALL ETERNITY!!! HE'S SO LOVING THAT HE LETS HIS OWN CHILDREN BE TORTURED TO DEATH!!! CAN'T YOU FEEL THE LOVE?!!!

God is as upfront with the contract as Santa: be good or you get the shaft.

i always figured that the horrible death of Jesus was God's best threat; think about it, if that's what He will do to His OWN kid, then just imagine what He will do to YOURS.

Believe in God or he will send you to hell.

Which is the same as

DUDE: Believe in this gun, or I'll shoot you with it.
ME: but there is no gun, how are you going to shoot me?
DUDE: Hey man you better believe in this gun, it's pointing right at your head.
ME: Dude, I can't see the damn gun. Can you shoot something else with it so I can tell it's there?
DUDE: Look man, are you testing me or something? It's a Desert Eagle, half-inch calibre or something. Here's the manual, you can read all about its awesome killing power, so be scared ok?
ME: seriously, i can't see the gun, how am I going to be scared? I mean I'm scared of you, waving your fingers about and saying bang bang and all that, it's pretty dam scary, not to mention weird, but I really don't see how you're gonna kill me with a non-existent gun.
DUDE:, oh wow now you're asking for it, look my mom told me about this gun see...

etc etc etc

Well I guess I didn't really know what I was typing down then. I thought there was a lot less material on Caesar. At least I know which is the Elder now for sure.

But about the books in the New Testament. Earlier versions have been found and the texts have changed very little.
---
God didn't make Abraham sacrifice Isac.

Cato the Elder is the 'delenda est Carthago' guy. Cato the Younger was his great nephew and one of Julius Caesar's rivals, who, ironically, ended up dying in Carthage.

The New Testament - I don't know what the oldest version is. My guess is no more than 200AD. There is still a gap. We can guess from what they mention and what they don't that they were probably written between 60-120AD. That leaves a gap. Not a big one, but big enough for conspiracy theories to grow [after all, Kennedy was only killed 40 years ago...]
The problem is it is all from one point of view. It's as if our only source for Hitler was some writing by Rudolf Hess from inside Spandau Prison [sorry to draw such a provocative comparison, I'm not really meaning to suggest any connection except level of historical reliability]. We might have a very different view of Hitler than the one we now do. And Hess might not have told the whole truth. He might have glossed over things that cast him, or his old boss, in a bad light.
Jesus is much the same. We don't know if he actually advocated violent overthrow of the Roman puppet state in Judea, for example, because our only documentation comes from people who believed a particular interpretation of his actions, and who were under considerable pressure to soften any anti-Roman bias in the gospels.

Cato the Elder is the 'delenda est Carthago' guy. Cato the Younger was his great nephew and one of Julius Caesar's rivals, who, ironically, ended up dying in Carthage.

The New Testament - I don't know what the oldest version is. My guess is no more than 200AD. There is still a gap. We can guess from what they mention and what they don't that they were probably written between 60-120AD. That leaves a gap. Not a big one, but big enough for conspiracy theories to grow [after all, Kennedy was only killed 40 years ago...]
The problem is it is all from one point of view. It's as if our only source for Hitler was some writing by Rudolf Hess from inside Spandau Prison [sorry to draw such a provocative comparison, I'm not really meaning to suggest any connection except level of historical reliability]. We might have a very different view of Hitler than the one we now do. And Hess might not have told the whole truth. He might have glossed over things that cast him, or his old boss, in a bad light.
Jesus is much the same. We don't know if he actually advocated violent overthrow of the Roman puppet state in Judea, for example, because our only documentation comes from people who believed a particular interpretation of his actions, and who were under considerable pressure to soften any anti-Roman bias in the gospels.

There are actually quite a lot of contemporary accounts of jesus that aren't in the NT. Apart from Josephus' which you carefully don't rule out, there are the many apocryphal gospels. These are only as contemporary as the NT gospels, ie they range from quite contemporary to not that contemporary at all. And they do paint some very different pictures of Jesus. The only stories I can remember are that when he was a boy, he was making birds out of dust and they flew away, but Joseph told him off so he smote him good, and another that was like the withered fig tree story except it was a guy who wouldn't give him any figs so he withered the guy.

I do, and I'm thankful that he die on the cross for us all. I love God he is the ruler, the king of the universe. :)

Yes I believe Jesus existed. And I also believe religion has screwed up most of his ideas for their own purpose and power.

No ha ha ha ha i believe in the panda

^------- Great first post

There are actually quite a lot of contemporary accounts of jesus that aren't in the NT. Apart from Josephus' which you carefully don't rule out, there are the many apocryphal gospels. These are only as contemporary as the NT gospels, ie they range from quite contemporary to not that contemporary at all. And they do paint some very different pictures of Jesus. The only stories I can remember are that when he was a boy, he was making birds out of dust and they flew away, but Joseph told him off so he smote him good, and another that was like the withered fig tree story except it was a guy who wouldn't give him any figs so he withered the guy.

The apocrypha are quite amusing. You get a miracle-working brat who curses other kids who tease him. I'm not sure about how seriously to take them, but in any event they also tend to come from the early Christian church and so don't help the case.

Josephus IS an interesting example, and I confess I had forgotten all about him. He's also one of our few sources for Pontius Pilate, and reveals him as a rather nastier authoritarian butcher than the conscience-ridden chap in the Gospels. Jospehus was writing in the 70s AD, so is closer than most sources. Pliny's letters also mention Christians in his own province, and of course the first recorded mention of Christians is during Nero's persecution following the great fire of Rome.

Trouble with Josephus is he seems to have been substantially amended during later copying by Christian monastic scribes so that he appears to authenticate the Bible story. There is an Arabic copy where Josephus mentions Jesus only in passing as a wise man who was crucified, and who, "it is reported by the Jews", was supposed to have risen on the third day - so possibly Josephus did indeed know of the stories. He was after all, like St Paul, a well-off, well-travelled Romanised Jew himself. Unfortunately, all he confirms is that these miraculous stories (the only 'details' he passes on were claims of the Resurrection) were doing the rounds in the Jewish community in the late 1st century AD. Still, it is confirmation of a sort, I suppose.

I have class in about five minutes so please excuse my spelling and what have you.

The existence of Christ is very bothersome to me. Wait hear me out don’t flip. Should he have existed as the bible says then he will be passing his redemption over many many supposed Christians. I really hope that he didn’t exist because we’ve fought so many wars in his name killed so many people and that was the one thing that he never wanted. Do you realize that his disciples were ready to fight the roman guards for him? They disarmed at his behest, he was the man who coined the phrase “turn the other cheek.” Now before you try to justify yourselves and what not what ever we have done to us is not anywhere near as painful as crucifixion which he decided was better than being violent.

Now on my own personal scale hmm, I am willing to accept Christ as the son of god. But he can be the son of god over there and I will be the son of god over here. As far as I’m concerned nothing deserves my worship because there is nothing above me. Now this does bring ego to mid but the way I see it is we must be greater than what we think, with the prevalence of metaphor in the old testament does anyone ever wonder that maybe ‘made in his image’ refers to something a little more important than the way we look?

As it stands I will accept Christ as a nice guy and I’d love to talk to him one on one, but until he can take the time out to do that he’s just some guy.

I lay about as much credence to Jesus being the son of God as I do to the Emperor Gaius (Caligula) declaring himself Neos Helios, and appointing his horse as High Priest of his cult. Just a megalomaniacal con man, Christianity the most successful of the mystery cults, that's about it. Think of David Koresh 2000 years earlier without the FBI and ATF hounding him, in an age and area of easily persuadable and very impressionable people. Sad to see the amount of death through the ages resulting from misled followers of primitive explanations of being. Strong is the need to belong to a set of beliefs and the social group around it. Can't believe people are still killing each other over whose set of absurd beliefs are more legitimate than the other. I feel sorry as hell for Galileo, Copernicus and the like.

Show me empirical evidence for Jesus' existence (the Bible is NOT evidence, much like the Iliad is NOT existence for Sirens) and I'll become a believer. If not, then I'll just accept Dionysus as my bitch since he's cooler. By the way, he also is known to have died on a cross at least 200 years before Christians depicted Christ on the cross. Dionysus was identified with the lamb, and called King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, Savior, Redeemer, Sin bearer, Anointed One, the Alpha and Omega.

HERE (http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_dionysus.html)

I lay about as much credence to Jesus being the son of God as I do to the Emperor Gaius (Caligula) declaring himself Neos Helios, and appointing his horse as High Priest of his cult. Just a self-glorified con man, Christianity the most successful of the mystery cults, that's about it. Sad to see the amount of death through the ages resulting from misled followers of primitive explanations of being. Strong is the need to belong to a set of beliefs and the social group around it. Can't believe people are still killing each other over whose set of absurd beliefs are more legitimate than the other, in mass numbers at that.

I'm willing to believe both men made the claim to divinity. Of course it mattered much more to a Jew like Jesus than it did to a Roman like Caligula; in the Jewish tradition the separation between human and divine is a sharp divide. In the Greco-Roman tradition it is more of a continuum, and powerful men could cross from one side to the other. After all, both Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Caligula's great uncle Augustus had all been made gods after their death (voting for divinity... now THAT'S democracy lol). The scandalous thing about Caligula's declaration was that he was willing to entertain the concept while he was still alive. But we know that Alexandria tried to make Claudius a God while he was still alive, so the temptation must have been there. Caligula's trouble was that he gave in to it (or at least, Suetonius tells us he did, which is a different thing altogether, since at the time of writing you had to defame Caligula's memory - it was just official policy). Caligula is one of those who has suffered from the victors writing history. I wonder if he even made his horse a Consul. Maybe he just threatened to, to show the senate how powerless and futile they had become. You know - one of those conversations that goes: "my horse could do a better job than you people! In fact... why don't I make him Consul."

Jesus is as real as Santa.

:o you mean santa's not real??

Define "believe in."

I'm curious..

If the pope went on TV tomorrow along with leader from other christian groups and admitted that, "yes we made jesus up. When we wrote the bible we thought it would help with the marketing (or whatever)" would it make a difference?
In other words are you guys christians because he's the son of god and can't be wrong? or because you agree with the texts and think they give a good message?

Show me empirical evidence for Jesus' existence (the Bible is NOT evidence, much like the Iliad is NOT existence for Sirens) and I'll become a believer. If not, then I'll just accept Dionysus as my bitch since he's cooler. By the way, he also is known to have died on a cross at least 200 years before Christians depicted Christ on the cross. Dionysus was identified with the lamb, and called King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, Savior, Redeemer, Sin bearer, Anointed One, the Alpha and Omega.

HERE (http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_dionysus.html)
Dude... Bachus

I don’t know what ‘beleave” is. I don’t “believe” in Jesus if you mean the supernatural being. I do believe in Godzilla though !
On a side note, there seems to be great statistical evidence that Christianity destroys or prevents the ability to spell correctly. Or maybe the belief in the supernatural and the lack of spelling ability are somehow related. Hmmmmm.

No, I do not believe that Jesus was the son of god/part of the holy trinity/whatever other holy label you want to give him.

Couple of points here.

We do know for sure that there was a Jesus around that time who was claiming to be a prophet or mesiah or something like that. Of course we also know that there were others around the same time claiming the same thing.

The Buddha is not a god. Anyone who believes he is is not a true Buddhist. Part of his teachings was that he was a human just like everyone else, he was simply awake.

We do know for sure that there was a Jesus around that time who was claiming to be a prophet or mesiah or something like that. Of course we also know that there were others around the same time claiming the same thing.

I must have missed this most important news item ever in the newspaper. Was it under the Comics section?

I must have missed this most important news item ever in the newspaper. Was it under the Comics section?

Look in the history books. I'm not saying that there are records of his miracles or his death and resurrection or any of that devine stuff. All I'm saying is that he existed and made claims of being a prophet. This of course, not being much of anything as that was something a lot of other people were also doing at the time.

I'm curious..

If the pope went on TV tomorrow along with leader from other christian groups and admitted that, "yes we made jesus up. When we wrote the bible we thought it would help with the marketing (or whatever)" would it make a difference?
In other words are you guys christians because he's the son of god and can't be wrong? or because you agree with the texts and think they give a good message?

Who's a Christian? Not here...

Who's a Christian? Not here...

Oops! Puppet post! This is me, too.

Oops! Puppet post! This is me, too.
go stand in the corner with the "Dunce" hat on

Who's a Christian? Not here...

Heathen!

Heathen!
Let's stone him to death!

Show me empirical evidence for Jesus' existence (the Bible is NOT evidence, much like the Iliad is NOT existence for Sirens) and I'll become a believer. If not, then I'll just accept Dionysus as my bitch since he's cooler. By the way, he also is known to have died on a cross at least 200 years before Christians depicted Christ on the cross. Dionysus was identified with the lamb, and called King of Kings, Only Begotten Son, Savior, Redeemer, Sin bearer, Anointed One, the Alpha and Omega.

HERE (http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_dionysus.html)

bollocks.
This image was made two weeks ago. with paintshop. etc.

go stand in the corner with the "Dunce" hat on

^
:(

^
:(
Must...stop...laughing....... I can't

WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

bollocks.
This image was made two weeks ago. with paintshop. etc.

Not sure if you're joking or are serious.

Look in the history books. I'm not saying that there are records of his miracles or his death and resurrection or any of that devine stuff. All I'm saying is that he existed and made claims of being a prophet. This of course, not being much of anything as that was something a lot of other people were also doing at the time.

Do you have any references to these books?

0800-JesusChrist

Jesus existed but not in the form that Christians believe. Christians dont want to hear the facts and when they do, they turn even more backward and ignorant. Jesus is one of hundreds of men that have claimed to be a god. The sad part is that many Christians know and continue to shovel to crap that Jesus was the son of God. If God sent his only begotten son to earth, he'd know about the previous guys and at least try to make his story different from the previous ones. Jesus's story is identical to over 15 men who lived up to 1500 years BEFORE Jesus. Sounds like a shyster to me, I mean he was always in the company of hookers and was constantly turning Water into Wine. So I guess Christians must think Ben Affleck is God's son as well.

Do you have any references to these books?

It's called the Bible, the same book that describe's God's will that humans eat feces, drink urine, stone their children and women keep their damn mouth shut. There are no records other than the Bible of such miracles.

bollocks.
This image was made two weeks ago. with paintshop. etc.

Is it me, or does that cross look like an anchor?

I thought it was Odin who got put on a tree to achieve mystical transcendence. I don't remember Bacchus doing it. Quoting 'The Bacchae' is misleading - it's only a play, and Greek gods going in human form is a commonplace anyway. We don't know what Bacchus worship actually involved AFAIK. The only Bacchus-Christian connection I can think of is that both cults were banned by the Empire.

Is it me, or does that cross look like an anchor?

I thought it was Odin who got put on a tree to achieve mystical transcendence. I don't remember Bacchus doing it. Quoting 'The Bacchae' is misleading - it's only a play, and Greek gods going in human form is a commonplace anyway. We don't know what Bacchus worship actually involved AFAIK. The only Bacchus-Christian connection I can think of is that both cults were banned by the Empire.
AFAIK?

AFAIK?

As Far As I Know

Yes. I wholeheartedly believe in Jesus.

As Far As I Know
Thanks

It involded drinking alcoholic beverages

Yes. I believe in Jesus. He's my home-boy.

It involded drinking alcoholic beverages

You think so? And him being the god of wine, too...

Well, yes, but I meant apart from that. Trouble was, it was a mystery cult, which were like the Freemasons of the ancient world. So no-one really knows what went on. Christianity used to be like that, too, which was why people used to believe the worst about it (rumours of cannibalism and so on - presumably they had heard a garbled report about the 'this is my body' part of the mass).

I do.


Nopers. There is no god. there is no devil. the is no heaven. there is no hell. Everything you do right, you are responsible for yourself. Anything you do wrong is your fault alone. Get used to it.

the Grokdoc

Yes.

It involded drinking alcoholic beverages
More accurately termed "drunken orgies".

Believe in God or he will send you to hell.

Which is the same as

DUDE: Believe in this gun, or I'll shoot you with it.
ME: but there is no gun, how are you going to shoot me?
DUDE: Hey man you better believe in this gun, it's pointing right at your head.
ME: Dude, I can't see the damn gun. Can you shoot something else with it so I can tell it's there?
DUDE: Look man, are you testing me or something? It's a Desert Eagle, half-inch calibre or something. Here's the manual, you can read all about its awesome killing power, so be scared ok?
ME: seriously, i can't see the gun, how am I going to be scared? I mean I'm scared of you, waving your fingers about and saying bang bang and all that, it's pretty dam scary, not to mention weird, but I really don't see how you're gonna kill me with a non-existent gun.
DUDE:, oh wow now you're asking for it, look my mom told me about this gun see...

etc etc etc
i'd say it's closer to:

DUDE: believe in this gun, or i will shoot you.
ME: there's no gun there.
DUDE: there is so. you best believe, or i'm gonna pop a cap.
ME: still not seeing the gun.
DUDE: HERETIC NON-BELIEVER!!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!!

*DUDE and his 100 friends jump ME, tie ME up, and burn ME at the stake. later, at the post-buring party...

DUDE: see? i told her there was a gun. she's dead, isn't she? POW!

i'd say it's closer to:

DUDE: believe in this gun, or i will shoot you.
ME: there's no gun there.
DUDE: there is so. you best believe, or i'm gonna pop a cap.
ME: still not seeing the gun.
DUDE: HERETIC NON-BELIEVER!!!! BURN THE WITCH!!!!

*DUDE and his 100 friends jump ME, tie ME up, and burn ME at the stake. later, at the post-buring party...

DUDE: see? i told her there was a gun. she's dead, isn't she? POW!
Most current religion would do nothing of the sort (burning at the stake). You know that.

Most religion would do nothing of the sort. You know that.
joke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jk) n.
1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
Informal.
4. Something not to be taken seriously; a triviality

Most current religion would do nothing of the sort (burning at the stake). You know that.
They don't admit they do...

joke ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jk) n.
1. Something said or done to evoke laughter or amusement, especially an amusing story with a punch line.
2. A mischievous trick; a prank.
3. An amusing or ludicrous incident or situation.
Informal.
4. Something not to be taken seriously; a trivialityIt is occasionally difficult to distinguish 'jokes' from 'serious positions' on a subject in this forum.

Jesus Jones?

It is occasionally difficult to distinguish 'jokes' from 'serious positions' on a subject in this forum.
everything is a joke unless it contains "WTF are you guys saying? I can't believe you think that way"

I have a good friend named Jesus Faudoa who is this cool punker kid and he bought me cigarettes on my birthday. Jesus truly is my homeboy

It is occasionally difficult to distinguish 'jokes' from 'serious positions' on a subject in this forum.
okay. you work on that.

I'm a faithful Catholic, because it pisses off the Leftists that run the US college industry. I also think that for every Marxist one causes to meet a bad end, God forgive one sin.

I'm a faithful Catholic, because it pisses off the Leftists that run the US college industry.
here we go, yet another example of what is clearly a joke post. it's not that hard to recognize them, see?

Most current religion would do nothing of the sort (burning at the stake). You know that.

With a history of slavery, genocide and institutionalised rape, I'd say Christianity is on uncommonly shaky ground there, though...

Also, much as you like to wish it were so, humans just don't seem to be as civilised as you seem to believe.... go back a hundred years and men in robes were burning blacks on crosses... or go back a few weeks and men with guns were dragging headless bodies through city streets...

here we go, yet another example of what is clearly a joke post. it's not that hard to recognize them, see?I don't know about that. People have quite a few radical/hateful opinions here.

I don't know about that. People have quite a few radical/hateful opinions here.
there's your problem:

see, that post was a joke, even if the poster didn't intend it to be one ;). whether or not somebody's opinions are a joke isn't contingent on how they personally view their own opinions.

With a history of slavery, genocide and institutionalised rape, I'd say Christianity is on uncommonly shaky ground there, though...

Also, much as you like to wish it were so, humans just don't seem to be as civilised as you seem to believe.... go back a hundred years and men in robes were burning blacks on crosses... or go back a few weeks and men with guns were dragging headless bodies through city streets...Note that I said 'current', and most of the atrocities that were committed before were by people not really practicing the faith they professed.

no and for feks sake get an origional thread

YES..HE EXISTS....WE ARE HOLDING THE SWINE HOSTAGE TIL HE TURNS OUR GREAT SEA INTO WINE.....HA HA... :sniper:

Note that I said 'current', and most of the atrocities that were committed before were by people not really practicing the faith they professed.

I consider a couple of weeks ago to be fairly current.

Also... that is YOUR opinion of their actions.

Many members of the Klan felt they were doing GOOD WORK, because of the colour of the skin of their 'victims', after all, twice in Genesis there are examples of people being condemned 'to' coloured skin because of sins.
(Ham and Cain).

Similarly, the Crusaders thought that the idea that 'all the world shall bend knees' to Christ, and 'every tongue profess' was PLENTY of justification to convert the 'heathen' by the sword.

Finally, the whole point of Islamic 'Jihads' is that they believe they are fighting evil... a 'jihad' is a 'holy' war.

:headbang: how can war be holy? let's all become hippies! :fluffle:

:headbang: how can war be holy? let's all become hippies! :fluffle:
I'd rather not stink all the time

I consider a couple of weeks ago to be fairly current.

Also... that is YOUR opinion of their actions.

Many members of the Klan felt they were doing GOOD WORK, because of the colour of the skin of their 'victims', after all, twice in Genesis there are examples of people being condemned 'to' coloured skin because of sins.
(Ham and Cain).

Similarly, the Crusaders thought that the idea that 'all the world shall bend knees' to Christ, and 'every tongue profess' was PLENTY of justification to convert the 'heathen' by the sword.

Finally, the whole point of Islamic 'Jihads' is that they believe they are fighting evil... a 'jihad' is a 'holy' war.Merely because someone believed they were doing 'good' does not mean they were following their religion (which includes its doctrine).

A jihad is supposed to be used for the sole purpose of reconquering lands that were invaded by someone else. Not as an excuse to go to war against a land that was never theirs.

to the original thread.... I don't believe in Jesus, or god. I find it good enough to believe in myself... :rolleyes:

"Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud."

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sif! Of course they would!

I mean, I don't think Jesus was a fraud, I think he was a good man who let his followers get a bit out of hand as opposed to a god, but honestly, how naive is it to assume a tradition is right just because it's so old?

It's like saying "I keep a cheese sandwhcih above our door. My family has been doing it for twenty generations. I don't know why, but there must be a good reason, otherwise we wouldn't keep doing it, would we?"

Well, from a purely historical perspective, my main stance is that a man named Jesus existed and He was special. Doesn't necessarily mean that, historically anyway, Jesus was the Son of God- it just means that there was something about the man that inspired a whole religion, and a very wide-reaching one at that. It was this notion that I was trying to grasp at. My own personal belief is that He is the Son of God, but that's me from my own religious perspective- on a purely historical level, I have reason to believe that there once was a special man named Jesus who inspired a whole religion- from this perspective, maybe He is the Son of God, maybe he isn't, that much history cannot verify.

As for the tradition aspect: I would think that somewhere in those 2,000 plus years of Christianity that someone would call the Church on it if Jesus was a fake (as in, the physical person Himself never existed). Call the general populace stupid if you want, but there's only so long you can fool people.

Oh, and for the record:

I do believe a man named "Buddha" existed, as well as the Prophet Mohammed; and I do believe that there probably were "special people" who eventually became the Hindu gods (not in real life- tradition eventually grew them into gods and gave them strange traits). This is if only for the sole reason that I don't believe a thousand-year plus religion with millions of followers would last if people found out that what they were worshipping was created by some wacko on the side of the street.

No. There's not a shred of credible evidence for any deity, let alone one that incarnated 2000 years ago. And look at all the misery it's all caused.

Merely because someone believed they were doing 'good' does not mean they were following their religion (which includes its doctrine).

A jihad is supposed to be used for the sole purpose of reconquering lands that were invaded by someone else. Not as an excuse to go to war against a land that was never theirs.

What is the doctrine of christianity that ISN'T included in the Bible, then?

Surely, if you follow the bible, and that leads you to kill people for the colour of their skin... since you are following the inerrant word of god, god WANTS you to kill people?

The 'jihad' reference I was talking about (beheaded bodies dragged behind cars ref.) is in Iraq, which, they would argue IS land invaded by someone else.

In that context, since America, England and France (these being the main protagonists) are the powers behind the enforced relocation of Palestinians, and the creation of an artificial 'Isreali' state - it could be argued that the Middle East (generally) has the right to 'jihads' agaisnt them.

No. There's not a shred of credible evidence for any deity, let alone one that incarnated 2000 years ago. And look at all the misery it's all caused.

I didn't say it was credible evidence for a deity. I said it was credible evidence for a physical person to have existed- future peoples just deified them.

I didn't say it was credible evidence for a deity. I said it was credible evidence for a physical person to have existed- future peoples just deified them.

Sorry, I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to the original question right up at the top - only I lost the quote and CBA to put it back in.

um........ yes and no. I think there was somebody or something, but i dont think tht they were a god or anything

Sorry, I wasn't replying to you, I was replying to the original question right up at the top - only I lost the quote and CBA to put it back in.

My apologies then.

I beleft the Church as soon as I could. :)

to the original thread.... I don't believe in Jesus, or god. I find it good enough to believe in myself... :rolleyes:

Good on ya - I haven't even gotten that far yet...

Dunc

Yes I believe He is alive.

Oh, and RomeW's assertion there is just the 'A million Frenchmen can't be wrong' fallacy.

FWIW.

I do.


Sure I do. It's his followers I can't stand.....

Oh, and RomeW's assertion there is just the 'A million Frenchmen can't be wrong' fallacy.

FWIW.

Do you really believe that 1 billion people can be fooled for over 2000 years? I don't think so. I'd give it maybe a couple hundred years at most, because if there really was no Jesus and if there really was, at the very least, something about Him that would not inspire a religion I do think we'd know about it by now, and most certainly there wouldn't 1 billion followers if the reality is that Christianity is a sham (I doubt any religion would survive for long if people found out it was a hoax, and certainly one billion people- a fifth of the world- would not be following it if it was).

Do you really believe that 1 billion people can be fooled for over 2000 years? I don't think so. I'd give it maybe a couple hundred years at most, because if there really was no Jesus and if there really was, at the very least, something about Him that would not inspire a religion I do think we'd know about it by now, and most certainly there wouldn't 1 billion followers if the reality is that Christianity is a sham (I doubt any religion would survive for long if people found out it was a hoax, and certainly one billion people- a fifth of the world- would not be following it if it was).
i totally disagree; i think if you can deceive a couple of million people for a year (and i know for a fact that you can), the the next year it will be even easier to deceive 2 million. the fact that ONLY 1 billion people have been taken in by Christianity is evidence for what a poor job they've made of it; i mean, if GOD is on your side, then that's a pretty lousy showing, quite frankly. i think McDonalds has managed to deceive about that number in the last decade alone.

For the record, I should probably note that I'm not a fundamentalist Christian and I disagree with the Church on a lot of issues, like abortion. I'm just of the belief that Jesus Christ was real in at least some capacity.

i totally disagree; i think if you can deceive a couple of million people for a year (and i know for a fact that you can), the the next year it will be even easier to deceive 2 million. the fact that ONLY 1 billion people have been taken in by Christianity is evidence for what a poor job they've made of it; i mean, if GOD is on your side, then that's a pretty lousy showing, quite frankly. i think McDonalds has managed to deceive about that number in the last decade alone.

Yeah, but for 2,000 years? I think in that time you'd get at least a couple of people who will sit down and think "oh wait a minute. Something's not adding up here" and proceed to spread that message just as quickly as the fraudulent message. If Christianity was formed 200 years ago maybe there would be some debate but 2,000 years is an awfully long time for a sham to continue. Either the Church is exceptionally gifted at deceiving even the most critical of thinkers or, at the very least Jesus physically existed.

EDIT- As for McDonald's: there's already a large amount of people who see through them and see the food for what it really is: junk food. You don't really see a lot of that about Christianity.

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.



theres more people in the world that DONT believe in jesus than do. more that believe in a wide array of other gods. a billion muslims can't be wrong either if there was no mohammed. so why not follow them? your point is moot.

yes, i do.

and its spelled 'belive', no offense.

yes, i do.

and its spelled 'belive', no offense.


No, actually its "believe". And I don't.

For the record, I should probably note that I'm not a fundamentalist Christian and I disagree with the Church on a lot of issues, like abortion. I'm just of the belief that Jesus Christ was real in at least some capacity.

Yeah, but for 2,000 years? I think in that time you'd get at least a couple of people who will sit down and think "oh wait a minute. Something's not adding up here" and proceed to spread that message just as quickly as the fraudulent message. If Christianity was formed 200 years ago maybe there would be some debate but 2,000 years is an awfully long time for a sham to continue. Either the Church is exceptionally gifted at deceiving even the most critical of thinkers or, at the very least Jesus physically existed.

um, a whole lot of people have sat down and concluded the myth of Jesus is bunk, and they HAVE spread their message very effectively. as soon as Christianity stopped being the only source of education in the western world, Jesus was on his way out; in America, Christianity is the fastest declining religious orientation, and secularism is the fastest growing.

the Church had a very easy time fooling people, because certain polical manuevers granted them status and wealth beyond that of any other single organization in the western world. for centuries, the ONLY source of education was the Church, and it's pretty damn easy to fool people when they can't learn anything other than what you teach them.

also, remember: far more people think Jesus was a myth than think he existed, if you want to go by raw numbers. out of the entire population of the world across all of history, the overwhelming majority do not and have not believed in the Christian god-myth. can all those billions of people be wrong? :)


EDIT- As for McDonald's: there's already a large amount of people who see through them and see the food for what it really is: junk food. You don't really see a lot of that about Christianity.
are you serious?! more people see through Christianity than see through McDonalds, particularly in America. stats show that a person who is raised Christian is more likely to grow up to reject that faith than a person who is raised eating McDonalds is likely to grow up and stop eating McDonalds.

there is no doubt that Jesus existed, however is you looki at all the scientific facts, the bible and Jesus Christ and all the tales from it are almost complete lies. The fact is Jesus existed but he may have had an illness that made him beleive he was god. Just like Charles Manson, only a lot less violent. In the long run Jesus was nothing more than a guy who everyone beleived he was god.

I do belive Jesus Christ was the one and only Son of God; my Lord and Savior, as I am a sinner He died to save.

jesus did exist. he was a nice guy, a little on the crazy side tho. i don't think it was right to kill him cause he was crazy. nowadays if someone says they are the son of god or that god spoke to them we would just pass them off as crazy tho. so he could be but it is doubtfull seing that it is scientificaly imposible for a virgin to give birth, so first off someone is lying, and it was probably to cover up an affair.

I don't beleave in anything. I do believe that Jesus is the son of God.

I believe in Jesus but does Jesus believe in me?

If he does he merely has to tell me so and I will give him my eternal favor.

beleave in christ jesus








ha!

To believe in Jesus you need to have faith. Unfortunately their is no physical evidence besides the writing from Christ's time. I believe in Jesus partly because of the bible but mostly from my own experience.

EDIT: I believe in Jesus but not the modern day Christian Churches. I have my own beliefs of him.

I do.
... and your point is?

I do. But I believe he was a hypocritical, violent, greedy, anti-life person, not the benevolent demi-God he is so often portrayed as.

um, a whole lot of people have sat down and concluded the myth of Jesus is bunk, and they HAVE spread their message very effectively. as soon as Christianity stopped being the only source of education in the western world, Jesus was on his way out; in America, Christianity is the fastest declining religious orientation, and secularism is the fastest growing.

the Church had a very easy time fooling people, because certain polical manuevers granted them status and wealth beyond that of any other single organization in the western world. for centuries, the ONLY source of education was the Church, and it's pretty damn easy to fool people when they can't learn anything other than what you teach them.

also, remember: far more people think Jesus was a myth than think he existed, if you want to go by raw numbers. out of the entire population of the world across all of history, the overwhelming majority do not and have not believed in the Christian god-myth. can all those billions of people be wrong? :)


are you serious?! more people see through Christianity than see through McDonalds, particularly in America. stats show that a person who is raised Christian is more likely to grow up to reject that faith than a person who is raised eating McDonalds is likely to grow up and stop eating McDonalds.

I know there have been many people who have sat down and debunked the whole "Jesus is the Son of God" thing- that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that a historical man named Jesus existed- maybe He was the Son of God or maybe not. My point is that historically Jesus existed, in much the same way as Pompey the Great or Imhotep did, a view that is rarely debated. Much of the debate- from what I've seen- is "was Jesus the Son of God or not?", not "was there ever a person named Jesus?" Besides, not everyone who thinks Jesus existed historically is crazy- some are rational; and, again, I'll say that I still don't believe such a strong tradition would continue for over 2000 years and have a billion people following it if there wasn't at least a shred of truth to it (being the existence of Jesus). Maybe only now are people able to actually question it, but I still think if Jesus never existed then it would be known by now.

I believe in spelling. :D

And the answer is No.

I believe that Jesus is a real person,(there are many secular histories that describe him and his work) I believe that the Bible is without error, because there are no contradictions within the text and no contradictions with the real world. (All apparent contradictions can be worked out without being academically dishonest) I believe Jesus is the Christ, The Messiah and that He will return in the flesh. I also believe that Jesus is our link between us and God, and that Jesus is God in human flesh (100% God and 100% human, not 50-50) I believe that he came to earth and died for the sins of the world, past, present and future. I believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. And lastly I believe that He is alive and has risen from the dead

more people see through Christianity than see through McDonalds, particularly in America. stats show that a person who is raised Christian is more likely to grow up to reject that faith than a person who is raised eating McDonalds is likely to grow up and stop eating McDonalds.
People don't become Christians by growing up in the church or even by going to church. Christianity is about having a personal relationship through Jesus Christ. Through Jesus we have forgiveness for our sins

i met a guy named jesus on a bus.

his name was pronounced hey-zeus though.

he seemed like a nice enough person, but then how much can you get about a person's character in a 5 min conversation that arises because your friend on the bus was making a comment on the name jesus (being pronounced the spanish way) was jesus... and then having a guy names jesus turn around and say "hey, my name is jesus" and such.

you've really got to wonder what the odds of that are though.

Eoncore UltimateEnd! To all of those critics I have a few points I'd like you to take note of:

1) Jesus could have avoided his crucifiction but he made no effort to defend himself or deny his claim as Messiah. I doubt he would die for some fairy tale he made up.

2) His desciples also died for spreading God's word, all except John were hunted down. They knew this since they saw it happen to Jesus and Jesus even warned them that the world would reject them since God's true children don't belong in this termoilous world ruled by the wicked. So I don't think they would die just for the sake of lying.

3) The word spread like wildfire depite Romans and many Jews persecuting the Gentiles (Christians). 2,000 years later all around the world MILLIONS know His word.

4) His grave is empty. Was the body stolen? I doubt it since the tomb was guarded by Roman guards to prevent such things, also the Gentiles were too concerned about saving their own lives to do something as stupid and dangerous as steal Jesus's body.

5) Were all of those witnesses to his miracles having delusions? How could so many people be having the same delusions AND believe in them so strongly that they put their lives in risk?

6) Unignorable prophecy fulfillment of Old Testiment predictions about the Messiah:

would be disfigured by suffering (52:14; 53:2-3)
was struck, spat on and mocked (Mark 15:17-19)

would come from humble beginnings (53:2)
grew up in Nazareth, a city with a very (53:2) poor reputation; and not where the Messiah was expected to come from (Luke 2:39-40)

would be rejected by many (53:1,3)
while on the cross, was mocked, blasphemed and reviled, even by those who were crucified with him (Matthew 27:39-44)

would bear our sins and suffer in our place (53:4-6,11)
"…himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24)

would heal many (53:4-5)
healed many (Matthew 8:16-17)

voluntarily took our punishment upon himself (53:6-7)
said, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (John 10:11)

remained silent during his suffering (53:7)
did not defend himself to Herod, Pontius Pilate or the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:62-64; 27:11-14; Luke 23:9)

would die (53:8,12)
died on a cross (Mark 15:37; John 19:33-34)

would be buried with a rich man (53:9)
was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man (Matthew 27:57-60)

would not remain dead, but see his seed
Rose from the dead three days after the crucifixion and still lives today
prolong his days andbe exalted (53:10-11)

and millions of people see themselves as his spiritual seed
(Matthew 28:1-10)

7) Or the equally important prophecies made by him and His desciples about the end times that are coming true now. www.countdown.org

8) The Bible is composed of 66 books written by over 40 authors over a period of time of about 1,500 years in various languages and at various geographical locations. How can it all form together as it does AND be so mainstream thousands of years later in countries overseas? SOMETHING is special here.

Interesting point of view IronJustice, but not all your claims can be supported with valid evidence. Not that anyone here (including me) has any valid evidence of their claims...

...I try, but I find the concept of God and Jesus too irrational for me to grasp, without having dubious interpretations beforehand...

1) Jesus could have avoided his crucifiction but he made no effort to defend himself or deny his claim as Messiah. I doubt he would die for some fairy tale he made up.

if indeed there was a jesus of nazareth, it's more likely that he was crucified because of the rukus he caused in the temple, with the turning over the tables and all that?
the romans weren't big on that kind of thing.

2) His desciples also died for spreading God's word, all except John were hunted down. They knew this since they saw it happen to Jesus and Jesus even warned them that the world would reject them since God's true children don't belong in this termoilous world ruled by the wicked. So I don't think they would die just for the sake of lying.

there were lots of prophets for other saviours who were also all killed. the saviours were killed too. there was actually a faily popular one who was competing with jesus in the eyes of the population at the time. i can't remember his name though.

3) The word spread like wildfire depite Romans and many Jews persecuting the Gentiles (Christians). 2,000 years later all around the world MILLIONS know His word.

mostly because the romans adopted the religion as their official religion and spread it along...
not to mention missionaries who feel they must convert the heathens.
and islam has many adherents too, it's actually catching up. does that make it more right?

4) His grave is empty. Was the body stolen? I doubt it since the tomb was guarded by Roman guards to prevent such things, also the Gentiles were too concerned about saving their own lives to do something as stupid and dangerous as steal Jesus's body.

have they actually found the specific grave?

5) Were all of those witnesses to his miracles having delusions? How could so many people be having the same delusions AND believe in them so strongly that they put their lives in risk?

were all the people who witnessed the feats of heracles delusional?

6) Unignorable prophecy fulfillment of Old Testiment predictions about the Messiah:

would be disfigured by suffering (52:14; 53:2-3)
was struck, spat on and mocked (Mark 15:17-19)

would come from humble beginnings (53:2)
grew up in Nazareth, a city with a very (53:2) poor reputation; and not where the Messiah was expected to come from (Luke 2:39-40)

would be rejected by many (53:1,3)
while on the cross, was mocked, blasphemed and reviled, even by those who were crucified with him (Matthew 27:39-44)

would bear our sins and suffer in our place (53:4-6,11)
"…himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24)

would heal many (53:4-5)
healed many (Matthew 8:16-17)

voluntarily took our punishment upon himself (53:6-7)
said, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (John 10:11)

remained silent during his suffering (53:7)
did not defend himself to Herod, Pontius Pilate or the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:62-64; 27:11-14; Luke 23:9)

would die (53:8,12)
died on a cross (Mark 15:37; John 19:33-34)

would be buried with a rich man (53:9)
was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man (Matthew 27:57-60)

would not remain dead, but see his seed
Rose from the dead three days after the crucifixion and still lives today
prolong his days andbe exalted (53:10-11)

and millions of people see themselves as his spiritual seed
(Matthew 28:1-10)

and is there independant corroberation of these prophesies coming true?
i mean, is there a source outside the bible that confirms most of these things.

7) Or the equally important prophecies made by him and His desciples about the end times that are coming true now. www.countdown.org

the bible has a 50% rate for correct prophesies... i wouldn't count on it. the early christians thought the end was near too. that's why they torched the library at alexandria, to rid the world of pagan literature... sucks how much progress was lost there.

8) The Bible is composed of 66 books written by over 40 authors over a period of time of about 1,500 years in various languages and at various geographical locations. How can it all form together as it does AND be so mainstream thousands of years later in countries overseas? SOMETHING is special here.

forced conversions?
and the earliest copies of the old testament date to 100 bce. slightly earlier than that, there is some sign of a monotheistic religion in the biblical lands. before then, there's evidence of the worship of bal and that's it.

you can believe in me, i'm real.

Eoncore UltimateEnd! To all of those critics I have a few points I'd like you to take note of:

1) Jesus could have avoided his crucifiction but he made no effort to defend himself or deny his claim as Messiah. I doubt he would die for some fairy tale he made up.

2) His desciples also died for spreading God's word, all except John were hunted down. They knew this since they saw it happen to Jesus and Jesus even warned them that the world would reject them since God's true children don't belong in this termoilous world ruled by the wicked. So I don't think they would die just for the sake of lying.

3) The word spread like wildfire depite Romans and many Jews persecuting the Gentiles (Christians). 2,000 years later all around the world MILLIONS know His word.

4) His grave is empty. Was the body stolen? I doubt it since the tomb was guarded by Roman guards to prevent such things, also the Gentiles were too concerned about saving their own lives to do something as stupid and dangerous as steal Jesus's body.

5) Were all of those witnesses to his miracles having delusions? How could so many people be having the same delusions AND believe in them so strongly that they put their lives in risk?

6) Unignorable prophecy fulfillment of Old Testiment predictions about the Messiah:

would be disfigured by suffering (52:14; 53:2-3)
was struck, spat on and mocked (Mark 15:17-19)

would come from humble beginnings (53:2)
grew up in Nazareth, a city with a very (53:2) poor reputation; and not where the Messiah was expected to come from (Luke 2:39-40)

would be rejected by many (53:1,3)
while on the cross, was mocked, blasphemed and reviled, even by those who were crucified with him (Matthew 27:39-44)

would bear our sins and suffer in our place (53:4-6,11)
"…himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." (1 Peter 2:24)

would heal many (53:4-5)
healed many (Matthew 8:16-17)

voluntarily took our punishment upon himself (53:6-7)
said, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep" (John 10:11)

remained silent during his suffering (53:7)
did not defend himself to Herod, Pontius Pilate or the Sanhedrin (Matthew 26:62-64; 27:11-14; Luke 23:9)

would die (53:8,12)
died on a cross (Mark 15:37; John 19:33-34)

would be buried with a rich man (53:9)
was buried in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, a rich man (Matthew 27:57-60)

would not remain dead, but see his seed
Rose from the dead three days after the crucifixion and still lives today
prolong his days andbe exalted (53:10-11)

and millions of people see themselves as his spiritual seed
(Matthew 28:1-10)

7) Or the equally important prophecies made by him and His desciples about the end times that are coming true now. www.countdown.org

8) The Bible is composed of 66 books written by over 40 authors over a period of time of about 1,500 years in various languages and at various geographical locations. How can it all form together as it does AND be so mainstream thousands of years later in countries overseas? SOMETHING is special here.

You're nuts. The Bible is a fraud and so is Jesus. You are someone I don't mind taking their faith away from because you are a whackjob. Go look up Osiris/Horus and see if you see any similarities between him and Jesus. And then realize that Osiris lived 1500 years before Jesus.
Who Did this?
Born in Manger on December 25th
Three gift bearing Kings were guided to his birth by a star
Mother was a virgin impregnated by God
Cast the thieves out of the temple at age 13 when he was a child teacher
Had 12 Disciples
Raised a man from the dead named coincidentally Lazarus(this guy was raised from the dead by at least 14 different "God" Men, Lazarus got around).
Turned Water to Wine
Walked on Water
Healed the sick and blind by touch
Hung out with hookers and drank wine all the time
Held last supper where he revealed that one of his disciples would betray him
Was crucified between 2 thieves
Died on Friday and rose from death 3 days later around March 25th
Will return to earth to rule for 1000 years

--------------
Now, Who was that? Can you guess? Sorry, I didn't give you enough information. It could be one of hundreds of men that claimed to be god or the son of god and they all did it BEFORE JESUS WAS EVER BORN! The Jesus story is a scam pulled off by hundreds of crooked shysters before him. Jesus was no different from Jimmy "Pee On Me Teenage Hooker" Swaggart or Jerry "I have sex with young boys" Fallwell. It's a load of hooey. Get over your hate religion and treat other humans with respect and kindness so we can all have fun. Christianity is the worst thing to ever happen to the world. More people have died from Christianity than cancer.

For the record, I should probably note that I'm not a fundamentalist Christian and I disagree with the Church on a lot of issues, like abortion. I'm just of the belief that Jesus Christ was real in at least some capacity.



Yeah, but for 2,000 years? I think in that time you'd get at least a couple of people who will sit down and think "oh wait a minute. Something's not adding up here" and proceed to spread that message just as quickly as the fraudulent message. If Christianity was formed 200 years ago maybe there would be some debate but 2,000 years is an awfully long time for a sham to continue. Either the Church is exceptionally gifted at deceiving even the most critical of thinkers or, at the very least Jesus physically existed.

EDIT- As for McDonald's: there's already a large amount of people who see through them and see the food for what it really is: junk food. You don't really see a lot of that about Christianity.

Lots of people HAVE sat down and said "oh wait a minute". We call some of them Mormons, some Moslems, some Sikhs, some Atheists....

I was a christian until I sat down and said "oh wait a minute", and I believe that's not an uncommon path into Atheism...

Your mistake is in not realising that a people who have 'faith' have no use for reason... so no amount of other people going "oh wait a minute" is going to make them see the light once they've filled their mind with faith.

I believe that Jesus is a real person,(there are many secular histories that describe him and his work) I believe that the Bible is without error, because there are no contradictions within the text and no contradictions with the real world. (All apparent contradictions can be worked out without being academically dishonest) I believe Jesus is the Christ, The Messiah and that He will return in the flesh. I also believe that Jesus is our link between us and God, and that Jesus is God in human flesh (100% God and 100% human, not 50-50) I believe that he came to earth and died for the sins of the world, past, present and future. I believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. And lastly I believe that He is alive and has risen from the dead

There are not many secular histories that describe him and his work.

So, you opened on a lie. Good work.

As far as I know, there is only one secular 'history' that details his life, being a record that supposedly exists of his 'criminal record', filed by the Romans.

I'm happy that you believe all that stuff. I, personally, don't believe any of it.

I did, once. But, then I realised that the bible isn't inerrant, that it contradicts itself, and that you would have to DELIBERATELY gloss-over those errors in order to STILL believe... and I just can't MAKE myself believe.

People don't become Christians by growing up in the church or even by going to church. Christianity is about having a personal relationship through Jesus Christ. Through Jesus we have forgiveness for our sins

Actually, they do. All Christians are 'formed' by exposure.

That exposure usually takes the form of the (sanctioned form of child-abuse that we call.....) spiritual-teaching of the child, by parents. Sometimes, it occurs through churches, sometimes through a book or film, or a song, maybe.

But nobody comes to 'jesus' on their own. (Obviously).

do i belive in jesus?

well why wouldn't i? if i'm good.. (like i am now.. i think) i'll go to heaven and be happy! lol

but if it turns out religion is all rubbish, what have i got to lose? i've gained nothing and lost nothing

so why not? hehe

I did, once. But, then I realised that the bible isn't inerrant, that it contradicts itself, and that you would have to DELIBERATELY gloss-over those errors in order to STILL believe... and I just can't MAKE myself believe.

That's fine, that's why we have freedom to decide these things but, whilst you criticize Christians (and other religious people's) just remember that you are behaving like one of them who you (seem to anyway, dislike so much.

do i belive in jesus?

well why wouldn't i? if i'm good.. (like i am now.. i think) i'll go to heaven and be happy! lol

but if it turns out religion is all rubbish, what have i got to lose? i've gained nothing and lost nothing

so why not? hehe

Based on a false premise, unfortunately.

What if the Moslems are right, and by being a christian, you are condemned to hell? By being an Atheist, you'd just be ignorant... by being Christian, you are worshipping an idol.

Another false premise: Christianity doesn't even begin to imply that you get to heaven by being 'good'.

Last false premise: That you lose nothing? If you spend your life telling someone else's story, singing someone else's song, following someone else's plans, doing someone else's things, only thinking someone else's ideas....

You'll have wasted your entire life, living someone else's life.

I am Sir Djubett Abilea Vit of highest order of the nation of Ekky Ekky Ekky Woopang, and I am Public Relations Officer for the Council of the Knights who say Ekky Ekky Ekky Woopang! And I have been asked to come before you today, to ask that you all donate, as a tribute to our most glorious creator, Ni, a Shrubberry. Not just any Shrubbery however, but one that looks nice, and has a nice path, with lots of little bluebells.

In the name of Ni!

Sir Djubett Abilea Vit
Public Relations Officer for the Council of the Knights who say Ekky Ekky Ekky Woopang, and High Moose of the Temple of Ni!

That's fine, that's why we have freedom to decide these things but, whilst you criticize Christians (and other religious people's) just remember that you are behaving like one of them who you (seem to anyway, dislike so much.

I don't dislike christians. I dislike the enforcement of religion... like the conditioning of children, or the inability of certain politicians to seperate church from state. The same goes for other religions that try to exert control, and for other political models, philosophies and cultures.

Also, how was I behaving like 'them'?

Based on a false premise, unfortunately.

What if the Moslems are right, and by being a christian, you are condemned to hell? By being an Atheist, you'd just be ignorant... by being Christian, you are worshipping an idol.

Another false premise: Christianity doesn't even begin to imply that you get to heaven by being 'good'.

Last false premise: That you lose nothing? If you spend your life telling someone else's story, singing someone else's song, following someone else's plans, doing someone else's things, only thinking someone else's ideas....

You'll have wasted your entire life, living someone else's life.

holy man, please, my idol i socialism and my belief is science. Your's is jesus and god. leave it at that dont take what the non believer infadel says as a direct threat lol

Who's jebus? ;)

holy man, please, my idol i socialism and my belief is science. Your's is jesus and god. leave it at that dont take what the non believer infadel says as a direct threat lol

And I think I speak for all here, when I say, "huh"?

I believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, who came down to Earth from Heaven to save of from our sins. I believe he died on the cross and on the third day was ressurected.
I'd like somebody who believes Jesus was only a man to answer (civily and politly) me this.
If Jesus was not God and he went are around telling people to trust their very souls in him, how could he be a good moral man? Anyone who did that and knew that he was not God would be eviler then Hitler.
Well, there's the possibility that he THOUGHT he was the son of God, and thus thought he had the right to go round telling ppl to trust their souls with him.
Go visit a Mental Hospital. I'm sure you'll find plenty of patients that genuinely and fervently believe that you need to follow them if you want to be saved.
Doesn't make them divine though, does it?
Which always raises the humourous possibility that maybe one of them IS the son of God. Let's face it, if Jesus appeared today, he would be locked up as a fruitcake. 'I possessed those pigs with evil spirits! Herd them into the sea!", "Give me a dead man! I'll make him live!", "I can make water into wine! Give me a couple of buckets!" etc etc. (I can turn Wine into urine, but I suppose that's not much of a miracle is it. Still if anyone doesn't believe me, feel free to send me a bottle and I'll prove it to you).
Back to the post:
A religious answer to your post could be that he wasn't the son of God, but was Satan. You have to admit it's a pretty evil thing to get 1/5 of the World's population to believe you when you were lying. So you might be off to Hell.
Reminds me of that old Rowan Actkinson routine where he's the devil, welcoming the damned to Hell:
"Any Christians here? I'm sorry but the Jews were right."

holy man, please, my idol i socialism and my belief is science. Your's is jesus and god. leave it at that dont take what the non believer infadel says as a direct threat lol
Do us a favour and make Grammar and Spelling two of your Apostles. Please.

No!

If you believe in jeBas but would like combat :sniper: him join our region!

You guys are criticizing me for my claims when I backed up what I said, I don't see you guys citing any sources but simply claiming that Jesus didn't exist or isn't the Messiah.
There are sevral historical references to Jesus other than the Bible, 2 or 3 of them. One of them was written by Mary's great uncle about his own life but talks about Jesus in detail in a few chapters that covers the time he took Jesus on a trip with him.

To the guy who said I was nutts for believing that: God is not restricted to the rules that He created for this world! Jesus was God in the form of a man, why do you think it's so obscure that He could change the laws of physics?
It's not a matter of me being nutts but a matter of you being judgmental and unimformed. I'm not going to explain how God works just to argue with you, if you want to e-mail you I have written a paper about it and I'd gladly send it to you.

Anyone who wants me to e-mail them a copy of my paper about scientific evidences that support the Bible let me know, KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

You guys are criticizing me for my claims when I backed up what I said, I don't see you guys citing any sources but simply claiming that Jesus didn't exist or isn't the Messiah.
There are sevral historical references to Jesus other than the Bible, 2 or 3 of them. One of them was written by Mary's great uncle about his own life but talks about Jesus in detail in a few chapters that covers the time he took Jesus on a trip with him.

To the guy who said I was nutts for believing that: God is not restricted to the rules that He created for this world! Jesus was God in the form of a man, why do you think it's so obscure that He could change the laws of physics?
It's not a matter of me being nutts but a matter of you being judgmental and unimformed. I'm not going to explain how God works just to argue with you, if you want to e-mail you I have written a paper about it and I'd gladly send it to you.

Anyone who wants me to e-mail them a copy of my paper about scientific evidences that support the Bible let me know, KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

Most people believe that someone called 'Jesus' may well have existed. They don't necessarily equate that to this 'Jesus' being some supernatural entity... and why should they, since no evidence exists?

(Well, one book... nothing independent).

As I said above, I can't think of a serious secular document that discusses Jesus (at the time he is supposed to have lived... many secualr documents may be written NOW, but that isn't evidence, is it?)

A book written by Mary's Uncle? Prove it! Prove that that is who wrote it. Prove that it is genuine, and not just another 'pseudepigraphical' text.

Which text is this, you claim?

You are 'not going to explain to us how god works'? So, you know, do you?

Jesus? Nah, I don't believe in him. I mean, honestly dude, he's a bowler in a movie, why would you believe in that?

Other things:

(Softly adds the "I don't need any rational evidence because I can just say its God" people to his list of people to be ignored)

(Points in the general direction of the refuse Jesus for 2000 years, and doubly points to the not so unpopular remark of "Jesus didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies...any of them", posts)

Do I believe Jesus existed and attempted to teach his morals? Yeah, but by those measures I also believe in Buddha and Mohammed.

Do I believe he was the son of God, or a prophet, or in any other way above human?

No.

You guys are criticizing me for my claims when I backed up what I said, I don't see you guys citing any sources but simply claiming that Jesus didn't exist or isn't the Messiah.
There are sevral historical references to Jesus other than the Bible, 2 or 3 of them. One of them was written by Mary's great uncle about his own life but talks about Jesus in detail in a few chapters that covers the time he took Jesus on a trip with him.

To the guy who said I was nutts for believing that: God is not restricted to the rules that He created for this world! Jesus was God in the form of a man, why do you think it's so obscure that He could change the laws of physics?
It's not a matter of me being nutts but a matter of you being judgmental and unimformed. I'm not going to explain how God works just to argue with you, if you want to e-mail you I have written a paper about it and I'd gladly send it to you.

Anyone who wants me to e-mail them a copy of my paper about scientific evidences that support the Bible let me know, KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

There are NO other references of the existence of Jesus Christ EXCEPT in the bible. Jesus is a fraud. Please post your other references, I know you can't because they dont exist.

There are NO other references of the existence of Jesus Christ EXCEPT in the bible. Jesus is a fraud. Please post your other references, I know you can't because they dont exist.

So what are your opinions of The Dead Sea Scrolls? You're correct - they don't actually talk about Jesus. However, they do prove without a doubt that many portions of the Bible have existed since the time of Christ and are not in fact made up.

A simple site:
http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html

So are you anti-religous or just anti-Christian? If you're the former, do you claim these works to be false as well?

As I have stated, Jesus is my mexican gardener. He enjoys lemonade on hot summer days, runs the fastest mile I've ever seen and makes a brilliant cheese, cracker and dip snack.

As I have stated, Jesus is my mexican gardener. He enjoys lemonade on hot summer days, runs the fastest mile I've ever seen and makes a brilliant cheese, cracker and dip snack.

So, does Jesus believe in Jesus?

So, does Jesus believe in Jesus?

He does! Jesus, the Olympic Russian Gymnist from 1996, great on the rings! I think he came in the top 8!

He does! Jesus, the Olympic Russian Gymnist from 1996, great on the rings! I think he came in the top 8!

Ah, but now the real twister: Does Jesus believe in Jesus (you know, the other way around)?

I do.

beleave or belaurel?

You guys are criticizing me for my claims when I backed up what I said, I don't see you guys citing any sources but simply claiming that Jesus didn't exist or isn't the Messiah.
There are sevral historical references to Jesus other than the Bible, 2 or 3 of them. One of them was written by Mary's great uncle about his own life but talks about Jesus in detail in a few chapters that covers the time he took Jesus on a trip with him.

To the guy who said I was nutts for believing that: God is not restricted to the rules that He created for this world! Jesus was God in the form of a man, why do you think it's so obscure that He could change the laws of physics?
It's not a matter of me being nutts but a matter of you being judgmental and unimformed. I'm not going to explain how God works just to argue with you, if you want to e-mail you I have written a paper about it and I'd gladly send it to you.

Anyone who wants me to e-mail them a copy of my paper about scientific evidences that support the Bible let me know, KC_Rajin@hotmail.com

Hey, I just thought of something: just for a change why don't you read good old "Behold the Man" by Michael Moorcock. His explanation of the Jesus phenomenon is AT LEAST as plausible as yours.

Ah, but now the real twister: Does Jesus believe in Jesus (you know, the other way around)?
No unfortunately, Olympic Jesus tends not to beleive I have a Mexican gardener who enjoys lemonade and makes great cheese, dip and chip snacks. Olympic Jesus tends to believe that I fabricated Jesus to make Jesus seem someone as important as say, Jesus. Jesus! I personally beleive in Jesus...have fun with that. Time for Simpsons.

So what are your opinions of The Dead Sea Scrolls? You're correct - they don't actually talk about Jesus. However, they do prove without a doubt that many portions of the Bible have existed since the time of Christ and are not in fact made up.

A simple site:
http://www.crystalinks.com/dss.html

So are you anti-religous or just anti-Christian? If you're the former, do you claim these works to be false as well?

The Dead Sea Scrolls, in my opinion, are as reliable a text as the bible. That is, they were written by an obviously religious group of people, chiefly describing religious issues. Thus, it is hard to assume that they are completely non-partisan.

All the Dead Sea scrolls do is reinforce the fact that certain stories were being told 2000 years ago. They do not in any way increase the veracity of those claims, since they are cannected to those very claims. They are not objective observers.

The point I'm trying to make is... if the gospels were 'made-up' (as I obviously believe they were), then another group of people in the same 'area', with access to the same oral traditions, are not UNLIKELY to write the same stories (Especially since both Gospels and Dead Sea scrolls were written AFTER the supposed life of Jesus... so both 'groups' writing texts may have started as the same group).

You know those weird guys you sometimes get outside convenience stores, screaming about the apocalypse and the need for people to save themselves? Yeah. Now, imagine what would happen if one of those guys was taken seriously. Two thousand years of global religious culture later, would anyone seriously accept our view that their Saviour was just some drunk we ignored (and walked past as he eventually died in a puddle of piss)?

It's a two-sided coin, guys. Most of Jesus's (assuming there was such a guy in the first place) contemporaries probably thought he was a nut. Many of us revere some guy from centuries ago, and yet cross the road to avoid someone who might just enjoy the same status an equivalent time in the future. It's funny to think how some things never change.

As Marlene Dietrich said at the end of Touch of Evil, "What difference does it make what anyone believes?"

Not in that sense. :)

Yes, if nothing else for the sole fact that a religion of 1 billion adherents wouldn't last over 2000 years if Jesus was a fraud.Since when does the number of adherents say anything about the quality of a religion's set-up? And there is a difference between accepting Jesus as a historical person and beliving in Jesus as a theological phenomenon. And there is a difference between believing in what Jesus may have done actually and what Paul and others have made out of it to create theological and clerical structures. It's a pretty wide field, and since Jesus and his contemporaries failed to write down anything themselves no meaningful interpretation could ever be made out of what others have allegedly heared about him. We know virtually nothing about Jesus. ;) Maybe Yahweh saw his mistake and sent Mohammed the next time: a prophet who could write...

He works at the cafeteria at my office.

Nice guy, English could use a bit of work. Makes a mean egg salad.


i to believe in Jesus, One of his many body doubles drives a bus around my school "which happens to be a Christian school" coincidence? i think not.

I do however believe in spell check..........LMAO

yes i do and his name is ken jennings

No.

Buddha has more adherents worldwide then Jesus or Muhammad. That doesn't mean I believe in Buddha. Ficticious gods are banned in my Nationstate and I wiould have it they be banned in my true nation as well. Alas, I fear those who are objective about such things are a rare minority in this country.

How do you figure? There are more Catholics than Buddhists.
Check this http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.htm

Banning "ficticious gods" is redundant.

And it appears you know little of Buddhism, which denies the existance of gods. (Buddha wasn't a god.)

Superman=2nd coming of Jesus :D

Look at the facts.
1. Both brought back from dead
2. Both insanely powerful (You're telling me with the power of God Jesus NEVER flew, had super strength, x-ray vision, heat vision, or ice breath?)
3. Superman's weakness=Kryptonite
Jesus' weakness=being nailed to a cross
(maybe a little difference between 1rst and 2nd coming)
4. Superman defeated entropy itself (fulfillment of final battle between good and evil with second coming?)

This horribly blasphemous post brought to you by a Christian with a sense of humor. So please no flaming. All in the name of fun. :D

i still stick with my origonal thought Ken Jennings is god. i mean come on no one is that smart without help from some being good or evil. just think about it :D

Don't know if anyone has ponted this out, but the question at hand is if we beleave (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beleave) in Jesus, NOT if we believe.

Seeing as the historical Jesus has left us, it would be safe to say I both believe in the existiance of a historical Jesus and have ben beleft by said historical Jesus.

Whether said historical Jesus was what has been claimed has yet to be shown, but really has no bearing on his beleavement.
:p

no. i neither beleave nor believe ;)

How do you figure? There are more Catholics than Buddhists.
Check this http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.htm

Banning "ficticious gods" is redundant.

And it appears you know little of Buddhism, which denies the existance of gods. (Buddha wasn't a god.)

The problem is, especially in America, the statistics are biased.

Example, in the US, the statistical question might ask if you believe in 'god'. A 'yes' response makes you a christian (or Catholic, largely depending on Geography) - for the purpose of survey.

Also - looked at your link, and they don't even have Jedi on the list...

I do.

Ditto

For the record, there are Roman records of a man that fills the description of Jesus Christ. He most assuredly did exist, the question is whether or not he was divine.

I hope this little fact helps clear up questions about anyone's beleafs.

For the record, there are Roman records of a man that fills the description of Jesus Christ. He most assuredly did exist, the question is whether or not he was divine.

I hope this little fact helps clear up questions about anyone's beleafs.

As a matter of interest, I have cited these records, but am incapable of finding a link, so I consider them to be 'weak' evidence to my argument.... do you have a source?

As a matter of interest, I have cited these records, but am incapable of finding a link, so I consider them to be 'weak' evidence to my argument.... do you have a source?

Uh...not right now. My Roman professor talked about a book one class that included the references. I can ask him the title Friday when I have his class next.

Uh...not right now. My Roman professor talked about a book one class that included the references. I can ask him the title Friday when I have his class next.

It is of interest to me... I read about it a fair while back (we are talking decades)... about how there is evidence of Criminal Records for someone matching the right description...

It seems to me this is likely the only SECULAR evidence that anyone even close to Jesus' description existed... but I am at a loss to produce any evidence.

I'm a Discordian; I believe in everything.

Jesus cuts my lawn. And is God.

Yeh.
Jesus is my gardener...
And he's certainly a sex god, if that counts.
:D

Actually, I do believe that Jesus was real. I don't believe all of the accounts of him though.

I go to Dogma.... Jesus was a Man with a good idea.... i get off Dogma.. he isnt THE son of the Christain God.. im wiccan.. so.. yes i may not need to say much more.. but.. as far as the human being goes.. i think Jesus was a simple man.. a carpenter.. i also think that as far as everything else goes.. he was a magician... truely .. i foyu think about it if he wasnt a known magician.. then he should have been killed before the crucifix as Wizardry was and is illegal according to the bible that all taught from.. so turning water to wine and walking on water all all forms of wizardry are they not.. so.. shouldnt Jesus have been condemed long ago as no one knew him as the son of God during these days? but im skeptic on alot as well.. i say now do not flame for my sayings as i did at one time believe in Jesus and the church and all that.. but now.. no i dont.. i believe Jesus was a man with a good idea who followed what he himself believed in and he had others who followed what he believed in. there is no way he was perfect.. no man is.. if you want proof of thaat.. look at Ghandi... he didnt believe in violence.. but when he went home he beat his wife and abused his children... so.. how can somenone tell me that Jesus was perfect and real and the son of God when you dont have his whole story down?

I know Jesus, he was in my astronomy class. But he did drop out to go sell his drugs.

He works at the cafeteria at my office.

Nice guy, English could use a bit of work. Makes a mean egg salad.

Yes. They make an excellent proletariat, those Christians do:

Kind hearted, hard working, simple, non-judgemental, and sturdy... like pack animals.
We can't all be Alphas.

But the rich ones. Ohhh. The worst. Absolutely the worst. Twisted and sadistic and anything but "Christian" the rich ones are. And for no good reason do they delude themselves either. It's a sad thing. Always doing the opposite of the teachings of Jesus, and simply getting in the way of the evolutionary processes of the sciences and humanities.
Please leave the reading to the Alphas; your soma is getting cold.

no. i neither beleave nor believe ;)

I beleaving this thread soon with some words of advice:
Christian mythology is the dullest and most unoriginal of all mythologies, save perhaps Roman. True, it accrues it's myths from a variety of religions and cults, but this 'diverse' shmorgesborg of fairy tales makes it all the more asinine and unappealing, at least to my tastes.

Despite my liberal, anti-bush, pro-choice, ways, yes, yes i do.

He existed. I just don't believe everything thats written in the bible.

Yes, with all my heart

I should try to be more like him... have a tendency to be an ass sometimes (although i'm usually kidding).

Yes I do.

I believe that A Jesus existed...not as a God.

I'm sure Jesus probably existed.

However, whether he was a prophet or son of god or litterally performed miracles, or whether I believe in a god is a different issue.

i believe you should get some spelling lessons

As a history major I can tell you that it is demonstratable (if not provable) that Jesus most likely existed and lead a small offshoot of Judaism as well as a rebellion against the Romans. Wether or not he was the son of God and savior of mankind is up to you to decide.

Give me firm proof that can show with out any reasonable doubt that there could even be a god or higher being and I would probably dismiss you anyway because it could not be near as much proof that already exist against the fact. Come on most beliefs from the past of Christianity have been disproved such as the earth is not the center of the solar system, god didn’t not create man or any thing else every thing evolved from a simpler form, and this is one of my favorite, the end of the world is suppose to be Jesus coming down and judging the wicked although there is proof that our sun is going to turn into a red giant and engulf the inner planets and many more ergo I do not believe in any form of god.

Give me firm proof that can show with out any reasonable doubt that there could even be a god or higher being and I would probably dismiss you anyway because it could not be near as much proof that already exist against the fact. Come on most beliefs from the past of Christianity have been disproved such as the earth is not the center of the solar system, god didn’t not create man or any thing else every thing evolved from a simpler form, and this is one of my favorite, the end of the world is suppose to be Jesus coming down and judging the wicked although there is proof that our sun is going to turn into a red giant and engulf the inner planets and many more ergo I do not believe in any form of god.

I'm with you on that. I can't comprehend a being that could have created all of this. I mean I can't even comprehend a begining of time.... Or a end for that matter. People say that it started with the big bang, or God creating it but what was before that? You can't say nothing, or darkness, because what was before that? and before that?
The universe and all time and space is ever expanding outward and ever inward. I don't even think that people 2000 years ago had any idea of all of this, and we are talking about the son of a god who held all of that in the palm of his hand. Where did he come from?
Once again in my mind you can't say he, she, or it was there from the begining because I don't think that there could have been a starting point.

There is no room in my world view for any dieties.

Now, I find it quite reasonable to believe that there was a religious leader called Jesus or Joshua or something like that, that said some of the things the Bible claims he did.

However, there has been thousands of prophets and they all contradict each other... I see no reason to listen more to this particular one than any other crackpot on the street.

I agree with what many other people have said. I think that Jesus existed, but as a human being, not a God. I think he was a remarkable human being, but a human being nonetheless. He taught us lessons that i think we can all stand to try and live our lives by, whether we believe in him or not. Things such as love, compassion, tolerance, forgiveness, understanding, and selflessness.

is there some kind of point here that i'm missing?

"Jesus" is the latin version of the greek "jesse" which was a fairly common name 2000 years ago around Judea.

it's STILL a pretty common name en el mundo hispanohablante. tho granted, for different reasons.

the question of whether some guy named jesus actually existed is totally irrelevant to the religious and political history which has proceeded from the assumption of his existence. MANY Jesuses existed, and that's not what you're asking. unless your plan is to gloat about how saved and christian you are (in itself a rather unchristian behavior) then what's the fuckin' point?


Would the plural of "Jesus" be "Jesi"? Just curious...

Not in the slightest, but I do believe in the English language.

Dont know if this has been posted yet, but Jesus may have been a man. Some say the truth lies under Oak Island (I forget where the island is located). Anyone know about Oak Island? Go research it, youll be amazed.

and when i say "man," I mean "not some god-type character or whatever." just a regular guy with a wife and kids.

I think there is a god, but at the same time i think it is way too dangerous to let a belief govern your ability for free thought and self independence

No.

Buddha has more adherents worldwide then Jesus or Muhammad. That doesn't mean I believe in Buddha. Ficticious gods are banned in my Nationstate and I wiould have it they be banned in my true nation as well. Alas, I fear those who are objective about such things are a rare minority in this country.

Incorrect, at least according to a web site i just searched for and checked.

these are their numbers:

----------
Christianity: 2 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million

Buddhism: 360 million
----------

these numbers are from 2002... don't think Buddhism has gained over 1.64 billion converts in the last two years.

the web page is http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Have you noticed that most of the crappy spelling on this forum is largely being done by the God-botherers. Makes you wonder if there is some sort of link between blind belief and poor education?

Hmmm.. no.

There are very many highly educated religious folks. Like me.

Although... I do not go to church as often as I did as a child.

Jesus was a great man, maybe one of the greatest to walk on Earth... but not the son of God.

Jesus was a great man, maybe one of the greatest to walk on Earth... but not the son of God.

Well, we'll find out.

"Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

That's what a popular Protestant hymn proclaims (taken from Scripture).

I beleive that jesus did exist, and that he was a good man with even better ideas, but the whole son of god thing is a bit much to tell you the truth.

yes i do, jesus is the son of God and gave His life for his people. i'm found my meaning to life in my faith and in my God. no my faith doesn't completly govern my free thoughts or actions. I am my own person and i am a sinner who Christ has taken in His arms like the father he is and has forgiven. my thoughts and life before Jesus was diffrent from my life after i became a Christian. Now i know that i am never alone and no matter what happens in my life i do not fear. plus the fact that i know where i'm going after i die...
~the holy ducks
:)

"Believe in Jesus"? I can't deny his existence. That is, he existED. He is dead and buried since long, and I believe he will stay that way. He was certainly not God's son, since God does not and have never existed. I would like to see you prove otherwise.

I'm sure that there was a Jesus. As a matter of fact, the Jesus you're referring to was a great Talmudic scholar and written about in the Gemara. I don't, however, believe that he was either the son of God or that he "died for your sins."

At the time that Jesus (or Yushkah, his Hebrew name) was born, Israel was under Roman occupation. Aside from not allowing the Jews to practice Judaism, there were other rules they had. One of them was that before a girl could marry (and of course, they were virgins), they'd have to spend the night with a Roman officer.

I'm sorry to be the one to point this out to you, but it seems only too logical that Mary (Hebrew--Miriam) was raped by a Roman officer and made up her story to cover her embarressment. I say this because there are things in Jesus's life that make it seem that he was a "ben Zonah"--bastard. Jesus wasn't allowed into the Temple and he never married. Just my opinion...

Additionally, Christianity seemed like just a sect of Judaism at the time. Upset that people would think Christianity was Judaism, the Sanhedrin (religious leaders in those days) asked the apostles to make some changes. You're lucky for that, or you'd have to eat only Kosher and observe the Sabbath like Jews do...

He did exist - Roman historical records have proven it. He was cruxified.