NationStates Jolt Archive

This thread was inspired by an existing thread, but I didn't want to derail yet another topic, as I have the unfortunate habit of doing. :X So here we go. The situation below is hypothetical, however I ask that you humour me and try to place yourself in the shoes of the protagonist, really stop and think, and imagine how they would feel. It is not a perfect analogy, nor is it meant to be. Focus on the message, not the medium.

You've met the most wonderful person. You have known them for only a short time, and yet you are sure you want to be with them forever. You love them without reserve, they make you happier than you have ever been, they complete you.

One day as you meet over lunch, they say that there is something they need to tell you. You sit attentively, wondering what it might be about. And when you find out, you are numbed; incapable of voicing a single word, incapable of thinking at all.

They want to break up.

Everything inside you screams in pain. You can't imagine a life without them anymore. They go on to say they aren't happy. They have been unhappy for a while now. They thought it would get better, they tried to work it out, but it is only getting worse. It isn't anything against you, but things just aren't working. You manage to stammer something along the lines of "But... we could work it out!", but they just shake their head and look down at their coffee.

As they search for the words to explain their feelings, a million thoughts shoot through your mind. Why does this have to happen? How can they do this to you? How can you continue on without them? You had such a bright future ahead of you. Marriage, maybe children. Years and years together.

They're destroying that future. They could be happy with you, if they were just willing to stick it out. Things could get better in time. But they're cowards. They don't understand. They want to give up, just throw that future away. They only see the temporary misery. They can't see the forest for the trees.

Now pause this imaginary scenario, and let's step back a bit. Ask yourself these questions before you continue, and really give them thought:

a) Is it fair for them to break up with you? Don't they owe you to try to work things out?

b) Are they being selfish, only thinking of their own happiness? What about your happiness?

c) Aren't they too consumed by their temporary problems to clearly analyze if they should be allowed to break up with you?

d) Is it moral to demand they stay with you, knowing it would make you happy, but them miserable? Would it be fair to force them to try to work things out until you were satisfied there was no chance it could work?

Now let's cut back in to the mind and shoes of our protagonist, as I continue this tale of fiction.

Your head is spinning, your hands are shaking. Your stomach is turned in knots. You don't want to think about this, you want to wake up and pretend it isn't happening. But you can't. Because this is happening, and you have to deal with it. But how?

You take a deep breath. They've made their decision, without ever consulting you. They are not happy anymore, and they are tired of trying to make it work. You want to be with them, you love them. You aren't ready to give up, but it doesn't make a difference, because for them the matter is closed.

It isn't fair. It isn't right. Why should you be made to suffer like this?

And then you remember a saying you once heard. "If you love something, set it free. [...] We do not possess anything in this world, least of all other people." You realize what must be done. This person is not an object. You cannot keep them in a cage, watch them wither, all for your own benefit, all because you are not ready to let go.

So you dumbly nod your head. You don't say anything, you can't. You simply get up and walk away. It hurts beyond belief. And you know it hurts them to leave you too. But you also know that to love someone is to want what makes them happy, not to want what makes you happy.

Now consider that in suicide, we often view the person leaving our lives as selfish. We say they haven't tried hard enough. If they just gave it more time, they could be happy. They're cowards. It isn't fair to us for them to leave like this. What about our pain, our suffering?

In doing so we reduce them from a person to a caged object. We don't think about what they want, we judge them by our standards, and blame them for not coming to the same conclusions as we do. We get angry for the pain they cause us.

Now put yourself in the shoes of the protagonist of the above story. You have just been told they want to leave you. Would you demand they stay? How would you defend your position?

After all, they don't know that things won't get better in time. Maybe they would be happier than they've ever been if they just stuck with it. It's the cowards route to give up like that. By demanding they stay with you, you're not thinking of yourself, you are doing what is best for them. And it's obvious you know better than they do what they should do, they just don't understand the situation, thinking of the temporary problems and pain.

Right?

Now put yourself in the position of the person breaking up. Would it seem fair now if the person demanded you stay with them, even though you did not wish to?

This isn't meant to change your mind. It is meant to make you think of things from a different perspective. Just food for thought.

Suicide is a touchy subject, although you seemed to do a good job of tackling an all too real situation in which it is considered.

I agree that suicide is a very touchy subject. It is also a pervasive subject in our modern day affecting many people. It can be said that despair is not a moment, but it is a way of life. The one in despair and in that struggle is not simply placed into it in one moment or the next, but it is a culmination of varying circumstances. With that being said, i have one simple statement to make concerning suicide, why use your freedom to take away your freedom?

Suicide is a very touchie and pervasive subject in our modern day. It can be said that despair is not a moment, but it is a way of life. The one in despair and in that struggle is not simply placed into in one moment, but it is a culmination of varying circumstances. With that being said, i have one simple statement to make concerning suicide, why use your freedom to take away your freedom?

I'm not sure I understand the last part (use freedom to take away freedom). Depending on how you view death, it may or may not in fact be the end. With things like the afterlife, reincarnation, higher levels of consciousness, and the like, death isn't always viewed as being the end of existence.

Even if it is though, or even if it isn't we must realize that death is inevitable. We all must die eventually. Suicide simply allows a person to choose on what terms that comes about.

Truly that is an excellent way to consider things. I can see only one major difference between your analogy and life, when people break up, there is still the ability to go back to the relationship, but with suicide, once you've 'broken up' you can never have it back.

if a person were to have a true choice of living for the next 50 years of their natural lives in utter pain and torment or ending it quickly, then yes, their choice to end it is a reasonable one.

i am a proponent of assisted suicide of the kind that is now legal in oregon.

but for most suicides its the equivalent of divorcing your husband because he forgot your birthday. if he is otherwise a good husband, youll get over it.

in real life, suicide is not an ethical decision, its a decision made out of despair. a response to a mental problem. a sick attempt at getting attention that went too far. its not a response to an unlivable life.

if you look at people who have what you might consider an unlivable life, they dont commit suicide. people with long term debilitating illnesses. people who live in war zones. people who are living in famine areas.

mental illness is not noble. the unnecessary pain caused by suicide should not be taken lightly. theory is nice but reality is different. in real life suicide is a tragic choice.

if a person were to have a true choice of living for the next 50 years of their natural lives in utter pain and torment or ending it quickly, then yes, their choice to end it is a reasonable one.

i am a proponent of assisted suicide of the kind that is now legal in oregon.

but for most suicides its the equivalent of divorcing your husband because he forgot your birthday. if he is otherwise a good husband, youll get over it.

in real life, suicide is not an ethical decision, its a decision made out of despair. a response to a mental problem. a sick attempt at getting attention that went too far. its not a response to an unlivable life.

if you look at people who have what you might consider an unlivable life, they dont commit suicide. people with long term debilitating illnesses. people who live in war zones. people who are living in famine areas.

mental illness is not noble. the unnecessary pain caused by suicide should not be taken lightly. theory is nice but reality is different. in real life suicide is a tragic choice.

If I may say so, I find it ironic that you claim to know the motivations of those who committed suicide. After all, they're dead. You can only judge the motivations of those who live - and if they're alive, one can't really compare them to those willing to die, now can we?

If I may say so, I find it ironic that you claim to know the motivations of those who committed suicide. After all, they're dead. You can only judge the motivations of those who live - and if they're alive, one can't really compare them to those willing to die, now can we?



What about for those in constant, excrusciating pain?

What about for those in constant, excrusciating pain?

Pardon my asking, but what of them? Some people have ethical problems with euthanasia or suicide. These can come from religion, social standards, or just their own beliefs. That is their right.

The topic was never meant to suggest suicide should be mandatory for all who suffer. Just that the option should be granted to each human being to make the choice themselves.

If I may say so, I find it ironic that you claim to know the motivations of those who committed suicide. After all, they're dead. You can only judge the motivations of those who live - and if they're alive, one can't really compare them to those willing to die, now can we?
if you can show me research that shows that a large number of serious suicide attempts who were unwillingly brought back from the brink were sorry to have lived or that they had non temporary reasons for their attempt, i will concede the point to you

if you can show me research that shows that a large number of serious suicide attempts who were unwillingly brought back from the brink were sorry to have lived or that they had non temporary reasons for their attempt, i will concede the point to you

What worth would such research have? Those who find life unbearable will ensure that they die. Those who do not, will live. Those who live will always say suicide would be a mistake, because they want to live. And those who die will never speak to us again.

The problem with what you ask if that you want to know how the living feel, when it is really only if the dead hold regret that matters.

Pardon my asking, but what of them? Some people have ethical problems with euthanasia or suicide. These can come from religion, social standards, or just their own beliefs. That is their right.

The topic was never meant to suggest suicide should be mandatory for all who suffer. Just that the option should be granted to each human being to make the choice themselves.




Sorry, I misread your post earlier. I thought you were against any suicide.

Sorry, I misread your post earlier. I thought you were against any suicide.

No worries. ^_^ The internet can be confusing enough as is, and I tend to muddle what I say. o.o;

No worries. ^_^ The internet can be confusing enough as is, and I tend to muddle what I say. o.o;




Your from Canada?

Sure am. Was born in Quebec [dodges rotten fruit] and reside in Newfoundland. Scary combination. ^_^'

I'm Alberta born but live in dumpy old Saskatchewan.

I've never been to Saskatchewan, though I visited my aunt in Toronto once. Nice place. ^_^ I'd like to visit it again sometime, along with at least a brief exploration of most of western Canada. But such requires a fairly decent amount of cash and free time, so phooey.

--Edit--

Come to think of it, I don't get how Toronto comes into anything. :\

I've never been to Saskatchewan, though I visited my aunt in Toronto once. Nice place. ^_^ I'd like to visit it again sometime, along with at least a brief exploration of most of western Canada. But such requires a fairly decent amount of cash and free time, so phooey.

--Edit--

Come to think of it, I don't get how Toronto comes into anything. :\


Meh, you don't need a lot money in Sask, everythings dirt cheap cuz everyones poor, not everyone but you get the point. You must visit BC if you go out west, Kelowna and Vancouver are the best.

I understand what you mean. ^_^;

I want to see the West Edmonton Mall. ^__^ My roommate was there once, and they've told me some cool stories. I definitely want to see B.C. at least once, both because of its generally cool geographic nature, and because I've met quite a few people from there online.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind travelling abroad. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

What worth would such research have? Those who find life unbearable will ensure that they die. Those who do not, will live. Those who live will always say suicide would be a mistake, because they want to live. And those who die will never speak to us again.

The problem with what you ask if that you want to know how the living feel, when it is really only if the dead hold regret that matters.
no
some people really wanted to kill themselves but were stopped from doing so. if it were something other than a temporary problem or a mental illness (although some mental illnesses cant be treated and leave a person in permanent dispair) then a large portion of these people would still want to kill themselves.

i dont think you can find a study that would suggest that there are large numbers of people killing themselves for ethical reasons. if you can find a study that says im wrong, i will be extremely surprised but ill take a look at it and be willing to concede my error.

for example, a big reason for killing yourself is because your best friend just did. in a month, this will not be a reason to kill yourself and devastate your family.

im not talking about people in chronic pain or irredeemable suffering. they are in a different position. and they seldom kill themselves on the spur of the moment leaving nothing but pain and bewilderment behind them.

im talking about teenagers reading posts glorifying the worst mistake they can make. its not noble. its not to be celebrated. it causes unimaginable pain to everyone around you. who would devastate their parents for wont of going to see a professinal therapist? why give up before you even get started?

I understand what you mean. ^_^;

I want to see the West Edmonton Mall. ^__^ My roommate was there once, and they've told me some cool stories. I definitely want to see B.C. at least once, both because of its generally cool geographic nature, and because I've met quite a few people from there online.

For that matter, I wouldn't mind travelling abroad. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.



The hospital I was born in is a 10 minute drive from West Edmonton Mall but I only lived in Edmonton for a year, so I never got to appreciate it much.

no
some people really wanted to kill themselves but were stopped from doing so. if it were something other than a temporary problem or a mental illness (although some mental illnesses cant be treated and leave a person in permanent dispair) then a large portion of these people would still want to kill themselves.

i dont think you can find a study that would suggest that there are large numbers of people killing themselves for ethical reasons. if you can find a study that says im wrong, i will be extremely surprised but ill take a look at it and be willing to concede my error.

for example, a big reason for killing yourself is because your best friend just did. in a month, this will not be a reason to kill yourself and devastate your family.

im not talking about people in chronic pain or irredeemable suffering. they are in a different position. and they seldom kill themselves on the spur of the moment leaving nothing but pain and bewilderment behind them.

im talking about teenagers reading posts glorifying the worst mistake they can make. its not noble. its not to be celebrated. it causes unimaginable pain to everyone around you. who would devastate their parents for wont of going to see a professinal therapist? why give up before you even get started?

First of all, I worded my original phrase badly. One cannot tell if they would regret dying until they are dead. When you bring someone back from the brink, they haven't experienced death, or what comes beyond it. Asking a living person if they regret trying to die is a moot point. If they say yes, they obviously never wanted to die to begin with.

Now with that said, you are still making the same general conclusions shown in the example story:

- I know their pain better than they do.
- They don't really understand.
- They'll make others suffer. They should live until we're ready to let them go.

You're welcome to believe that of course. I'm just sorry my story didn't carry my point more accurately.

The hospital I was born in is a 10 minute drive from West Edmonton Mall but I only lived in Edmonton for a year, so I never got to appreciate it much.

That's a shame, but I suppose those are the breaks. :\ What is it you dislike about Saskatchewan, mildly confusing spelling aside, if you don't mind my asking?

That's a shame, but I suppose those are the breaks. :\ What is it you dislike about Saskatchewan, mildly confusing spelling aside, if you don't mind my asking?




I lived in Calgary for 11 years and then in 2001 had to leave everything behind to go to Saskatchewan. I made some new friends, although my best friend moved form Saskatchewan to Niagra Falls and then I changed schools again last year. Plus, there are no opportunities in this province, all my friends want to leave and so do I. It's really quite sad but theres not much worth staying for.

I can empathize... an increasing number of people are leaving this province to find work, or just a better life. It has reached the point that quite a few smaller towns have simply closed because there just weren't enough people left to sustain them. Mostly the residents move to larger cities, but I can only imagine it must be difficult to watch your birthplace literally cease to exist before your eyes.

You have any idea where you plan to move to, if anywhere else? I've often thought about moving back to Quebec. A lot of my family is there.

I can empathize... an increasing number of people are leaving this province to find work, or just a better life. It has reached the point that quite a few smaller towns have simply closed because there just weren't enough people left to sustain them. Mostly the residents move to larger cities, but I can only imagine it must be difficult to watch your birthplace literally cease to exist before your eyes.

You have any idea where you plan to move to, if anywhere else? I've often thought about moving back to Quebec. A lot of my family is there.




It's either Alberta or Ontario for me, although likely Alberta in the end because I know so many people there. Funny thing is, Newfoundland is the only province I haven't been to in Canada.

It's a beautiful province. The air is clean, there is quite a bit of nature even in the cities, and the people are really nice; if somewhat eccentric. Before my father passed away, he was quite ill, and unable to drive at all.

The owner of the local corner store used to drive out to my house, pick up my father, take him to the store, help him find the groceries he needed, bag them, bring them out to the car, drive my father home, and then help him bring the groceries in.

He didn't charge him so much as one cent.

The local pharmacist used to fill out all my father's medical forms and send them away for him, again at no cost. He also regularly offered to drive my father anywhere he needed to go, despite the small fortune in gasoline it must have cost him.

People here are scary nice. Mind you, there are the asses, but those exist in any place. Le sigh... much as I like it here, I really do want to travel. [kicks empty wallet and stupid job]

It's a beautiful province. The air is clean, there is quite a bit of nature even in the cities, and the people are really nice; if somewhat eccentric. Before my father passed away, he was quite ill, and unable to drive at all.

The owner of the local corner store used to drive out to my house, pick up my father, take him to the store, help him find the groceries he needed, bag them, bring them out to the car, drive my father home, and then help him bring the groceries in.

He didn't charge him so much as one cent.

The local pharmacist used to fill out all my father's medical forms and send them away for him, again at no cost. He also regularly offered to drive my father anywhere he needed to go, despite the small fortune in gasoline it must have cost him.

People here are scary nice. Mind you, there are the asses, but those exist in any place. Le sigh... much as I like it here, I really do want to travel. [kicks empty wallet and stupid job]



I only travel because I'm only 16 and still living with my parents. I only have about $2 000 of my own money, although I plan to get a job soon.

Ah, fair enough. It's not a bad idea to get at least a part time job early. Aside from giving you extra spending cash, you can save it towards things like getting your own apartment, or a car, or college tuition... and so forth. I wish I had planned ahead. o.o;;

Speaking of college, any idea what you plan to study? Still a bit early to be thinking about it now I suppose. :\

Ah, fair enough. It's not a bad idea to get at least a part time job early. Aside from giving you extra spending cash, you can save it towards things like getting your own apartment, or a car, or college tuition... and so forth. I wish I had planned ahead. o.o;;

Speaking of college, any idea what you plan to study? Still a bit early to be thinking about it now I suppose. :\



Nah, at my school 95% of Grade 12s go into some sort of Post Secondary Education, so I've been thinking about that for a couple of years now. I actually want to become a journalist but my parents desperatly want me to be a lawyer.

Ooh... I've actually heard lawyers have the lowest job satisfaction of all occupations. I don't know if it's true or not though. Then again, lawyers earn a pretty penny, so perhaps it is some condolence.

Far be it for me to tell you what to do, but it might not hurt to consider studying both. Journalism is certainly a respectable career choice, but I'm not sure how easy it is to break in to, nor how well the entry point wage is. Having a law degree would give you something to fall back on, worst case scenario.

Just a thought though. Ah well, 2:15AM now. I'm afraid I have to be heading off before I fall asleep at my desk. It was nice talking to you though, and a refreshing change from staring at my computer screen blankly. -_^ Take care.