NationStates Jolt Archive

In another thread a concerned member of our community expressed the desire for a moment of silence for a fallen friend.
A bit of comfort from his internet comrades.

I offered my honest feelings on the matter with my best wishes and prayers.

I was insulted for this(not by the thread originator.).
I would have responded in that thread were it not for the fact I see no reason to clutter what is supposed to be a respectful "place".

This is the situation as it was presented to me:
Someone comitted suicide.

This is my opinion on the matter:
I do not subscribe to selfish Western ideal that another person some how owes me a say in how their life is lead.
Even the ones I love, as much as I might feel I know what is best.

Many cultures veiw suicide as perfectly reasonble form of death, natural as it were.

I said that I would not offer silence for his friend as I respected his right to self determination.

I saw many people speak of his family.
They have my prayers.
However, if our thoughts are to be with deceased, then we should be happy.
Even if you do not believe in an after life it can not be argued that now he does nto suffer what ever it was he was suffering from in this life.

For those who would wish him back to life to suffer what he believed to be unbearable are in a word-selfish.

He realized he needed rest, solace, salvation, a reprieve.

My opinion is not wrong.
It is not cruel.
It is not unitelligent.
It is simply diffierent from the common Western ideals shared by many on these boards.

I find it a pity that the one person who thought to argue with me was only intelligent enough to respond with "fuck you" a display of thier psychological depth.

However I will not apologize for my earnest opinion on such a serious matter.
As my opinion is no more or less valid then the simple close minded bafoon who believes his veiw of the way people should think is the only correct way to be.
Thank you.

My views on suicide are very similar to yours. I'm glad that someone else has a similar view.

The problem is that suicide is often a result of temporary depression or mental problems, rather than a reasoned choice to stop continuing with life because the pain was too unbearable. Is it really a rational choice to end your own life just because of the breakup of a relationship? Suicide can be the result of a temporary pain that does not remove the potential for much greater happiness later.

That said, I personally think suicide should be allowed if the person is able to show that they are capable of making a rational decision and are of sound mental health.

The problem is that suicide is often a result of temporary depression or mental problems, rather than a reasoned choice to stop continuing with life because the pain was too unbearable. Is it really a rational choice to end your own life just because of the breakup of a relationship? Suicide can be the result of a temporary pain that does not remove the potential for much greater happiness later.

That said, I personally think suicide should be allowed if the person is able to show that they are capable of making a rational decision and are of sound mental health.
Who is to define what is rational?
A Western trained psychoanalyst?
A clergymen?
Second how would you enforce this?

your opinion is immature and ill informed

for a young person to kill themselves is an unmitigated tragedy

what seems unbearable today is just a memory of a bad day tomorrow.

or its a chemical imbalance that might be treated if only the person had told someone of the bad thoughts going through his head.

who could celebrate an action that utterly devastates so many people?

his family, his friends, even kids who barely knew him in school are affected. they all grieve. they all know that his decision was a bad one based on temporary problems.

some of these people will never "get over" the feelings of betrayal, loss, guilt, anger that he has caused them. it will be a burden to them for the rest of their lives.

as i said in that thread, if the person knew the unbearable pain he was causing others, if he COULD understand it. he would never do it. not to anyone he loved.

we dont live in another culture. we live in THIS one. we dont celebrate an unnecessary loss of life. we mourn a person who has made a mistake that can never be fixed. we mourn that he could not reach out to those who loved him and could have helped him work through his pain.

and we sorrow for those who will suffer the pain of this loss for years to come.

Well, the problem is that the standard is so subjective as to meaningless in practical terms. I suppose it was more a statement of my own personal belief than any suggestion for a system to enforced. I would say as a general rule suicide should not be a hastily made decision, perhaps if a person wishes to end their life they should have to spend a weak considering it and consulting with friends and family before making a final decision.

Ashmoria, you are the one with the immature opinion.
Mainly because you seek to impose your very feelings on another.
I do not mourn death.
I am 29 years old and have seen plenty of it.
Death is not some catastropy, and it is your selfishness that demands of those you love to suffer because you would not be without there company.
Ill informed is simply a stupid remark, you dont even try to accept another cultural idea beyound your own.
I live in Amercia (I dont know where you live) in America we have as many cultures as there people in this nation.
People are pigeon held into someone elses ideal.
How ignorant of , no not ignorant.
Arrogant of you to presume to know the RIGHT way for everyone.
Calling it ignorance would an insult to the uninformed.
I opened this thread with out insult save for a small slight against he that insulted me-and I did not even name him.
You come and instead of attempt an adult discourse you throw little words from a little mind around like scattered toys of a careless child.
If you have genuine opinion I would be happy to hear it and discuss it and mine.
If you prefer to hurl insults then by all means we can do that as well.
One is constructive and one is not, it is completely up to you.

Well, the problem is that the standard is so subjective as to meaningless in practical terms. I suppose it was more a statement of my own personal belief than any suggestion for a system to enforced. I would say as a general rule suicide should not be a hastily made decision, perhaps if a person wishes to end their life they should have to spend a weak considering it and consulting with friends and family before making a final decision.
I think that is a brillant statement.
It would give someone with depression an opportunity to see that he might harm people by ending his life, or that he is simply wanted.

It would also give a family a chance prepare for the impending death if that is the choice.

The presumption here is that suicide is self-determination.

Am I wrong in saying that suicide is brought on by something usually outside of your control?

In my case, a girlfirend broke up with me, this was after moving from my hometown of ten years, seeing my church burn down (I'm now an atheist), watching friends grieve for those who died in the twin towers, and watching (not literally) another friend lose her virginity while drunk to a guy she met that night. All within a year. All of those situations were beyond my control.

If they are beyond my control and they bring about depression and I go kill myself, am I really using my self-determination or am I letting others decide what my mood is going to be and how I am going to decide my fate?

It seems to me that suicide is simply giving up your self-determination and letting others determine how you are going to feel based upon their actions.

Ashmoria, you are the one with the immature opinion.
Mainly because you seek to impose your very feelings on another.
I do not mourn death.
I am 29 years old and have seen plenty of it.
Death is not some catastropy, and it is your selfishness that demands of those you love to suffer because you would not be without there company.
Ill informed is simply a stupid remark, you dont even try to accept another cultural idea beyound your own.
I live in Amercia (I dont know where you live) in America we have as many cultures as there people in this nation.
People are pigeon held into someone elses ideal.
How ignorant of , no not ignorant.
Arrogant of you to presume to know the RIGHT way for everyone.
Calling it ignorance would an insult to the uninformed.
I opened this thread with out insult save for a small slight against he that insulted me-and I did not even name him.
You come and instead of attempt an adult discourse you throw little words from a little mind around like scattered toys of a careless child.
If you have genuine opinion I would be happy to hear it and discuss it and mine.
If you prefer to hurl insults then by all means we can do that as well.
One is constructive and one is not, it is completely up to you.

that IS my constructive opinion

there is nothing to celebrate about a kid succumbing to a mental illness.

what kind of culture do you come from where that is considered a good thing?

This is an interesting argument.

First off, just because someone disagrees with your opinion on anything doesn't make them immature, ill informed or any other nasty little word you can throw out.

My personal opinion on suicide is its a cowardly act to avoid dealing with problems that could be solved or dealt with. Most kids who attempt suicide are looking for attention or are just holding everything in to a point where they are no longer thinking straight. Either way, its a act of lashing out at life. Lets face it, it isn't normally a thing people really really think about before they do it because, if you think to long you'll never have the guts to do it. Also I think it is a bit of a selfish act. Putting your loved ones through that type of pain willingly is about as selfish as it gets.

I've lost a friend this way once and to my surprise the first reaction when I was told that he took his own life was not depression. It was anger. Depression set in shortly after but, for a short time I was so angry at him I wished I could have brought him back just to give him the tongue lashing of his life and maybe smack him a couple times. There is no reason to put people through this. Especially people (Parents, Siblings, close friends, significant others) who would do everything in their power to save your life if they could. When you commit suicide the only person your thinking about is yourself unless your an extremely cold person. Because anyone with a minimal amount of feelings would think about what it would do to the people who love them and realize thats its just not worth it.

Why is everybody arguing about this? This person did what they felt was best - perhaps you don't agree with that, but I don't see how you can disagree with Temujinn's desire to remember and honor their friend. That's low. I will now observe a moment of silence for this person, who obviously had friends who cared about them very much. Perhaps I didn't know them, and perhaps I don't agree with the decision they made, but it's the least I can do.

Why is everybody arguing about this? This person did what they felt was best - perhaps you don't agree with that, but I don't see how you can disagree with Temujinn's desire to remember and honor their friend. That's low. I will now observe a moment of silence for this person, who obviously had friends who cared about them very much. Perhaps I didn't know them, and perhaps I don't agree with the decision they made, but it's the least I can do.
oh if it were temujinn's friend i would never take him to task in his time of grief

the discussion was moved over here out of respect for the feelings of the person whose friend it was.

In another thread a concerned member of our community expressed the desire for a moment of silence for a fallen friend.
A bit of comfort from his internet comrades.

I offered my honest feelings on the matter with my best wishes and prayers.

I was insulted for this(not by the thread originator.).
I would have responded in that thread were it not for the fact I see no reason to clutter what is supposed to be a respectful "place".

This is the situation as it was presented to me:
Someone comitted suicide.

This is my opinion on the matter:
I do not subscribe to selfish Western ideal that another person some how owes me a say in how their life is lead.
Even the ones I love, as much as I might feel I know what is best.

Many cultures veiw suicide as perfectly reasonble form of death, natural as it were.

I said that I would not offer silence for his friend as I respected his right to self determination.

I saw many people speak of his family.
They have my prayers.
However, if our thoughts are to be with deceased, then we should be happy.
Even if you do not believe in an after life it can not be argued that now he does nto suffer what ever it was he was suffering from in this life.

For those who would wish him back to life to suffer what he believed to be unbearable are in a word-selfish.

He realized he needed rest, solace, salvation, a reprieve.

My opinion is not wrong.
It is not cruel.
It is not unitelligent.
It is simply diffierent from the common Western ideals shared by many on these boards.

I find it a pity that the one person who thought to argue with me was only intelligent enough to respond with "fuck you" a display of thier psychological depth.

However I will not apologize for my earnest opinion on such a serious matter.
As my opinion is no more or less valid then the simple close minded bafoon who believes his veiw of the way people should think is the only correct way to be.
Thank you.

Temujinn,while what you expressed is an opinion,there is a thing called being diplomatic and tactful.While I am not one for beaating around the bush and prefer totally straight talk,there is a time for being diplomatic and tactful while still being forthright.While you expressed your opinion,fair enough,I think it would have been better to restrain yourself from expressing your opinion regarding the death of that fellow's friend.Alternately,you could have just expressed condolences and left it at that.

Well,that it the beauty of hindsight and my view on the issue.

bump

your opinion is immature and ill informed

No it isn't.

for a young person to kill themselves is an unmitigated tragedy

Not always. We did NOT choose to be born. We have every right to choose when to die.

what seems unbearable today is just a memory of a bad day tomorrow.

Not for everyone. Depression is more painful than you think. You are the unrealistic optimist here.

or its a chemical imbalance that might be treated if only the person had told someone of the bad thoughts going through his head.

That is not a panacea. You make it sound so easy to convince someone not to commit suicide. You are trivialising the issue.

who could celebrate an action that utterly devastates so many people?

It's not about celebrating it, it's about respecting them, their right to make that decision, and that decision.

his family, his friends, even kids who barely knew him in school are affected. they all grieve. they all know that his decision was a bad one based on temporary problems.

No they don't. How can they possibly know the full picture? If they combine their knowledge, they are likely to realise that life was too hard for the person in question.

some of these people will never "get over" the feelings of betrayal, loss, guilt, anger that he has caused them. it will be a burden to them for the rest of their lives.

It shouldn't be a burden for that long. And why should they feel guilty unless they contributed to the suicide?

as i said in that thread, if the person knew the unbearable pain he was causing others, if he COULD understand it. he would never do it. not to anyone he loved.

Good for him. What about those whose individual suffering is greater than that of everyone else who would suffer if they commited suicide?

we dont live in another culture. we live in THIS one. we dont celebrate an unnecessary loss of life. we mourn a person who has made a mistake that can never be fixed. we mourn that he could not reach out to those who loved him and could have helped him work through his pain.

and we sorrow for those who will suffer the pain of this loss for years to come.

Zzzzzzzz....such an archaic viewpoint.

Suicide, to me, is a subject that hits extremely close to home.

I've been there. I've attempted it. Almost everyone I know has at some point.

Let me tell you a story.

Two people met, just over a year ago. They were both in horrible shape, emotionally. One was actively suicidal, the other was still trying to hide it.
After several months, one of them cracked. He came within inches of suicide. He felt that what he was feeling at the time was so unbearable that the only way to escape was to kill himself so that he would never feel again.
The other person saw this happening and in the process of trying to help him, she realized just how precious life is. Gradually, suicide became an impossibility for her. And with her care and guidance, the other person got through the lowest point in their life.
Now they are planning on getting engaged. Life goes on.

I know a couple of people who are bent on suicide. They can't see that it'll eventually get better. At the moment they cannot comprehend that life goes on, it's not the end of the world, and killing themselves will only take away any chance they have of eventually recovering.

There is nothing good about someone committing suicide because of a temporary depression. :(

Ive personally dealt with depression since puberty.
Its Long Term Major Clinical Depression.

There comes a point in a person with depression, where life becomes surreal.
You dont have the desire to do the things you used to like to do, and the sheer reallity of how awful you feel can be the most daunting thing of all.

Ive been on nearly every anti-depressant on the market, and its probably a thing I'll have to deal with most of my life.

But not once did I ever attempt suicide.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Ive sinced stopped taking any medications at all, and have never looked back, nor, have been doing so well, mentallly, in a long time.

Suicide is finally letting depression beat you.
Its petty, wasteful, and far more damaging to your loved ones.
They suffer forever with your memories, and the questions you leave behind.

The ultimate truth when it comes to Depression is this:

You have to decide how your going to feel.

Are you gonna make an "Ask the Squatch" thread any time soon?

Are you gonna make an "Ask the Squatch" thread any time soon?

Not right away, I view all these "ask a..." threads mere imitations, although perhaps that is the truest form of flattery.

Im gonna give it a bit, and then I will most definately.

Not right away, I view all these "ask a..." threads mere imitations, although perhaps that is the truest form of flattery.

Im gonna give it a bit, and then I will most definately.

Thankyou, sire.

...I do not mourn death.
...Death is not some catastropy, and it is your selfishness that demands of those you love to suffer because you would not be without there company.


You're welcome to not mourn death. I don't think that sharing your opinion with people who are clearly mourning death, in the thread in which they are mourning, is a very sensitive action.

In clear terms - a thread exists in which people are asked to mourn for a suicide. If you don't wish to mourn, it would be sensitive not to contribute, rather than to make a philosophical point about what is, to some people, a real tragedy.

Nobody is mourning for the dead person, they are mourning their own sadness that s/he is dead. Nobody is forcing the dead person to live, they are nevertheless sad that s/he is dead. And not only are people sad because they lose the company of the suicide. They are sad because of the loss of what could have been a fine life. If I mourn a suicide who I did not know, this person whose death is discussed, how am I selfish? I never knew the guy, I won't miss them. But it is sad when a life is lost.


Incidentally, very few people are so determined to commit suicide that they keep trying over and over. This indicates to me that the desire for suicide is often a fleeting thing, brought on by temporary depression often chemical in nature. As you don't know the circumstances of this particular death, it would be sensitive to keep your opinions, to which you are fully entitled, and which are certainly not outrageous, and which would be mainstream in many parts of the world, quiet.

That is not a panacea. You make it sound so easy to convince someone not to commit suicide. You are trivialising the issue.



It is often as easy as talking to them, and often as easy as preventing death once the attempt has been made.


It's not about celebrating it, it's about respecting them, their right to make that decision, and that decision.


I don't see a conflict between respecting someone's choices and being sad about them.


No they don't. How can they possibly know the full picture? If they combine their knowledge, they are likely to realise that life was too hard for the person in question.

That says:
a) they don't know the full picture
b) they can't know the full picture
c) if they get together, they will know the full picture
d) the full picture is likely to be different from what they think but the same as what I think

c contradicts b

d is obvious - of course life was too difficult in most suicides, that's why they suicide. However, the reasons that life is too difficult are generally surmountable with help, and even if they aren't, we can still be sad about it.



It shouldn't be a burden for that long. And why should they feel guilty unless they contributed to the suicide?

Why "should" they feel guilty? Because they are people. It is rare for people to feel only what it is logical for people to feel. Did you ever watch star trek? Did you never wonder why Spock kept saying "that is illogical, captain"?



Good for him. What about those whose individual suffering is greater than that of everyone else who would suffer if they commited suicide?

Do you think that people's suffering can be weighed like that? I don't.


Zzzzzzzz....such an archaic viewpoint.
Breathing is a lot older, and still very popular

your opinion is immature and ill informed

for a young person to kill themselves is an unmitigated tragedy

what seems unbearable today is just a memory of a bad day tomorrow.

or its a chemical imbalance that might be treated if only the person had told someone of the bad thoughts going through his head.

who could celebrate an action that utterly devastates so many people?

his family, his friends, even kids who barely knew him in school are affected. they all grieve. they all know that his decision was a bad one based on temporary problems.

I'd like to point out that this is a commonly used hyperbole... not ALL suicides are a reaction to short-term problems. You CANNOT say (with any shred of certainty), that anyone's life will improve for certain. There are people who deal with crippling depression their entire lives. While some do not choose suicide, some do, and you are grossly trivialising this - just because those who DON'T commit suicide report their lives get better, doesn't mean that those that do would have similar fortune.

some of these people will never "get over" the feelings of betrayal, loss, guilt, anger that he has caused them. it will be a burden to them for the rest of their lives.

Often, it's ditto with the depression. Sometimes people NEVER "get over it", and suffer their entire lives, feeling isolated, as well as ALL the emotions you have listed on the part of the family. I'm sure many feel that their family *doesn't* love them, and that NO ONE does... that's part ofthe reason they are able to go through with it (I speak from some level of experience here - my deepest lows leave me utterly convinced that no one could possibly care if I were dead, and I'm in fact usually convinced that people in my life would be BETTER OFF without me around).

It's not selfishness, it's people who can't handle their emotions, and start to believe things that make the pain easier to rationalise ("people treat me like shit all the time, hence I must deserve to be treated like shit", "they act like they don't love me, I mustn't deserve love" etc).

While the family has a burden, I think you should seriously reconsider treating depression so lightly. It's not easy to live with, and it's not easy to understand if you aren't affected by it.

as i said in that thread, if the person knew the unbearable pain he was causing others, if he COULD understand it. he would never do it. not to anyone he loved.

He probably wouldn't believe it, like I said. The few people I know who have serious bouts of suicidal depression all say similar things - when they feel down, they don't think anyone would care if they were dead, and often think they would be sparing their family and friends the hassle of dealing with them and their depression.

and we sorrow for those who will suffer the pain of this loss for years to come.

I agree with this (I hope you don't think I was trying to directly attack what you were saying... I used quotes because it gave me a frame to refer to). Suicide is never a pleasant thing, it's always regrettable... but maybe if so many people didn't treat depression as some sort of minor infliction, maybe those that ARE depressed would find it easier to reach out for help.

It is often as easy as talking to them, and often as easy as preventing death once the attempt has been made.

And it is NEVER achieved by condemning them.

I don't see a conflict between respecting someone's choices and being sad about them.

Neither do I.

That says:
a) they don't know the full picture
b) they can't know the full picture
c) if they get together, they will know the full picture
d) the full picture is likely to be different from what they think but the same as what I think

c contradicts b

d is obvious - of course life was too difficult in most suicides, that's why they suicide. However, the reasons that life is too difficult are generally surmountable with help, and even if they aren't, we can still be sad about it.

No, what I was saying is that the full picture could be a result of all of their opinions and knowledge, and that none of them can know the whole picture by themselves.

Why "should" they feel guilty? Because they are people. It is rare for people to feel only what it is logical for people to feel. Did you ever watch star trek? Did you never wonder why Spock kept saying "that is illogical, captain"?

It may not necessarily be illogical. If it is based on our experiences with that person, then even impulsive actions can be viewed as logical.

Do you think that people's suffering can be weighed like that? I don't.

Why not? The rights of minorities not to be enslaved outweighs the right and inconvenience of the majority who might wish to enslave them, does it not?


Breathing is a lot older, and still very popular

But breathing is not used as a reason for political/ideological/moral viewpoints.

Listen, I'll state my opinion again, slowly this time.

I have been depressed. Near suicidial at times. I was a bit lucky, I guess, because every time I was I simply was unable to do it. Call it a lack of energy.

That being said, a few days/weeks later I was happy again, I enjoyed life, and from what I hear, most people are the same way. Depression tends to be temporary, and if I would have killed myself, I would have missed out on some great times. People who are depressed need help. Suicide should be stigmatized, but depression shouldn't. It's the wrong choice.

oh if it were temujinn's friend i would never take him to task in his time of grief

the discussion was moved over here out of respect for the feelings of the person whose friend it was.
I didnt think you would ;) .
You responses I found rude, but not mean.

First Depression does not equal suicide and suicide is not always a product of depression.
Second, my first wife killed herself at age twenty five.
She was survived by my two Daughters.
I am un impressed by attempted suicide, and unsympathetic to it as well.
At 14 I watched my friend Joe jump under a train.
At 16 A friend of mine shot himslef in the face in the hallway of his highschool between classes.
At 17 a friend of mine sat down in his fathers chair with his fathers gun and did himself in.
At 19 one of my best friends in the world attempted to kill himself(not attempted attention, attempted suicide) he ate several dozens valums and shot up anti-freeze(ohhh lucky him though he didnt die) He of course didnt remember who I was( I knew him for about 5 years) He couldnt really read that well anymore or dress himself(did I mention before this he had been a genius, not kind of a genius, a documented mathmatical prodigy with a photographic memory that rivaled Hollywoods versions of the gift).
I will not go into the people I know who were murdered, or the murders I have watched personally.
The people who raised me are dead, my father is dieing.
I have an excellent grasp of death.
Death is not depression.
Death can be surrender, but cant it also be rest?
Isnt it also peace, final absolute peace.
Permanent peace.
I offered my best wishes for the family of that fallen boy, that they would find peace in his peace.
That is love, that is grace.
Love is in finding happiness in the happiness of your loved one.
Even if that happiness is not with you.
Doing justice to your friend by not allowing his or her death to become the albatrose around your neck.
Western ideology places the name "Depression" on many feelings that it is not.
It cannot be argued that everyday they discover that their medicines are doing more harm then good, that new therapies replace the old because the old are found to be ineffective.
Shame, can kill a person.
Pride.
Since we can all agree that suicide is an act the is deliberate in preformance that is know will lead to ones own death-correct?
I will post a story later.

I saw many people speak of his family.
They have my prayers.
However, if our thoughts are to be with deceased, then we should be happy.
Even if you do not believe in an after life it can not be argued that now he does nto suffer what ever it was he was suffering from in this life.

Unless you're a Catholic, who now believes he is suffering eternal torment in their illusiory Hell.

My views are a bit different. I find suicide a sign of weakness. They couldn't bear the pain or handle something in life so they quit. Usually it isn't a well informed decision, it is a momentary cry for help that often fails. It's also a waste of life, they were given a life, they should use it to it's potential.

Unless you're a Catholic, who now believes he is suffering eternal torment in their illusiory Hell.

My views are a bit different. I find suicide a sign of weakness. They couldn't bear the pain or handle something in life so they quit. Usually it isn't a well informed decision, it is a momentary cry for help that often fails. It's also a waste of life, they were given a life, they should use it to it's potential.
Suicide is deliberately bringing about your own death.
That statement covers the "Catholic" deliemma you speak of.
Second, I find that more often then not the person who claims to see the "weakness" of others is actually imprinting his own short comings upon another.
I am amused that you would presume to understand the working of anothers mind.
I have cousin who suffers from a degenrative bone disease- When my aunt and uncle took him to see a doctor as a teenager the doctor explained that if he ever complained of pain it was very likly pain completely beyound their understanding.
His disease caused him relentless pain constantly- to which he had become numb.
His personal threshold for pain was far in excess of the norm.
He explained to the Father who had been belittling my cousin for complaing about leg pain, that in all probability if he was under the same pain as his son he would loose conciousness in a matter of moments.
One man can rarely judge another man's suffering.
As I seriously doubt you to be a mental health professional(or any other type of professional for that matter) your presumption of weakness sounds very much like the product of a weak mind it self.

To everyone else I apologize, this really isnt a debatable topic-all opinion.
I simply wanted to state that my particular opinion was not as alien as a small few were trying to make it out to be.
Thanks for your input.
Sorry if I offended anyone.