NationStates Jolt Archive

Gahh, must do debate in history class, and since this is a uber-political esque forum then I think you all might be interested.

Debate Topic:
Foreign suspects of terrorism are not protected by the Bill of Rights and thus, are subject to any variety of methods of interrogation including the use of torture.

I have the con side, but i have to research both sides. So everyone go ahead and debate this thing and if you can give me places to support your arguements all the merrier. GO!

I would like to believe that we do not offer human beings their rights because the law orders us to, but because we have a basic respect for all people. Regardless of their nationality, they are human beings, just like us; there is no reason to deny them the same humane treatment you would give to your own, or want them to receive in the hands of your enemy.

So, to me, a con is that we are degrading human life through torture, and acting hypocritically by promoting human rights for our own, but not for others.

Gahh, must do debate in history class, and since this is a uber-political esque forum then I think you all might be interested.

Debate Topic:
Foreign suspects of terrorism are not protected by the Bill of Rights and thus, are subject to any variety of methods of interrogation including the use of torture.

I have the con side, but i have to research both sides. So everyone go ahead and debate this thing and if you can give me places to support your arguements all the merrier. GO!
Actually, I don't see anything restricting the Bill of Rights to just citizens, it does say "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

No person. I assume that foreigners are people?

Would you like that to happen to you say, if you went to Saudi Arabia?
"Guys, take him away and bring the whip with you!"
...

To ask the classic question, is it not moral to torture a terrorist to learn where the bomb that will kill many people is? Torture is wrong, but to allow people to die is also wrong, so which is worse?

Torture is never justified.

To ask the classic question, is it not moral to torture a terrorist to learn where the bomb that will kill many people is? Torture is wrong, but to allow people to die is also wrong, so which is worse?

The guy's only suspected. Justice isn't all that flawless

personally, i don't see how willfully inflicting excessive amounts of pain on to sentient beings could possibly be ethically justified. but ethical questions aside, there are three practical concerns that make torture worthless and a generally bad idea.

first off, under torture people will say anything that they think their torturers want to hear. anything to make the pain stop. which means that testimony obtained through torture is much more likely to be false than true. and so while you might be able to get a person to talk much more quickly, you will also have to spend more time sifting through false information and following up confessions that go nowhere. and, of course, you will wind up torturing others that have been implicated until they too name even more names that they think you want to hear. you wind up wasting time and chasing imaginary plots that exist only because you suspected they did. and each new 'plot' you uncover can only convince you that there are even more plots out there, and that even more people must be questioned.

and then there is the fact that in the face of this kind of behavior you actually are giving a lot of people a rather good reason to take up arms against you. they never know when they may be taken to be tortured because somebody else said their name while having their bones slowly broken - and innocence is no protection. keeping your head down won't save you, so you might as well start shooting back.

third, once a major state starts torturing people for information, torture gains an air of legitimacy. then you are pretty much assuring that anyone from your side taken captive will face torture too. and there is nothing you can say or do about it. nothing that anyone would take serious anyway.

all people held by the united states on us territory are protected under the laws and the constitution of the united states.

this was one reason why they took the afghan "terrorists" to cuba. in the odd assumption that a us base is not us territory

not only that but all "civilized" countries are bound by the geneva conventions which do not allow the use of torture. to lower our standards puts our people at increased risk of being treated the same way.

Actually, I don't see anything restricting the Bill of Rights to just citizens, it does say "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

No person. I assume that foreigners are people?

I don't see where the fifth amendment prohibits torture to obtain information - although any such evidence so gathered would be inadmissable at trial. Nor can I think of a specific clause of the constitution that prohibits the torture of enemy combatants to gather intelligence. Social Security however is probably unconstitutional.

The reason why we don't currently torture people - treaty considerations aside - is that doing so would violate just about every criminal code in this country and, despite what the popular media would have you believe, being in government service does not grant blanket license to break the law. (Unless your name is William Jefferson Clinton, which is why he lives in Chappaqua and Martha Stewart now lives in jail.) Therefore, anyone who did torture people on the behalf of government would be themselves subject to criminal sanctions.

Torturing people also probably violates ius cogenstenants of international law, which would subject the torturers to prosecution overseas.

Could the US torture people secretly? It has, and will probably do so again.

A couple issues.

Regardless of the Bill of Rights, the Geneva convention prohibits the use of turture to procur information from POW's. That having been said, not everyone taken in Afghanistan qualifies as a POW. To be a POW, one must be identified with a uniformed, organized military. This is also how the Nazis got around the Geneva convention, in that partisans and the like were not technically uniformed or part of a states organized military. Those, all the Hajis locked up in X-Ray are not POW's but enemy combatants, a much vaguer definition with a lot less protections.

Is it perfectly legal? I have no idea. Its a huge gray area. Should torture be employed? Absolutely, but intelligently. Strap a guy to a rack and ask him where the WMD's are he's likely to say anything to make it stop, not necessarily the truth or anything useful.

Is it perfectly legal? I have no idea. Its a huge gray area. Should torture be employed? Absolutely, but intelligently. Strap a guy to a rack and ask him where the WMD's are he's likely to say anything to make it stop, not necessarily the truth or anything useful.

How do you inteligently torture people?

I don't see much of a debate. It's wrong: it's a human rights issue and would be very ineffective for gathering information.