NationStates Jolt Archive

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the situation in Israel, and I keep seeing inaccurate information on this.

I have a friend over from Jerusalem, and she would be happy to answer your questions, if she can.

Ask away!

I will go completely off topic. Do you like psycedelic trance?

Wow, for all the stuff I see on this on these forums everyday that's wrong, it appears that not many people are interested in knowing the truth.

Very strange.

And, um, psychadelic trance has never really been my thing, no...

What's your stance on the Israel/Palestine issue?

She says that most Israelis want peace with the Palestinians, but that there is nobody to negotiate with, and so they don't know what to do. They are trying to pull out from Gaza so that the Palestinians can rule themselves, and that the problem is really the terrorist groups in the West Bank that blow themselves up.

I have a question for an Israeli--How do you respond to people (especially in America) parading Palestinian terrorists around as heroes for the liberation of Palestine. Please also explain why you feel that curfews must be inforced, and also Israeli counter-strikes to terrorist attacks.

She thinks that calling Palestinian homicide bombers 'heroes' is disgusting. Also, she thinks that Israel is entitled to retaliate, but too much as it only causes more problems.
Curfews are there to try and stop the terrorists from moving around at night and therefore stop them from launching attacks.

How does she feel about army service? Does it scare her? What are her thoughts on the refuseniks, both on the left (refusing to serve in the territories) and the right (refusing to dismantle settlements).

What does she think about the settlements, too? And the settlers, particularly the more radical ones in Kiryat Arba/Hebron?

... What political party does she support? ;)

How does she feel about the Wall of Apartheid, which also happens to be going around many of the area's fresh-water sources as well?

Dammit you beat me to it.

EDIT: I'll start it and if you tell me to close it then I will.

She says that army service scares the shit out of her, but her sisters did it, and you have to, for the good of the country. Also, you meet new people and it's supposed to be a good experience, except that she doesn't want to get hurt or die. On the other hand, she's likely to get hurt or die in a bombing, so what's the point? The refuseniks are cowardly. They think that by not fighting they are protecting their country? If she is willing to do it (and she's a very peaceful person) then they all should.

As for the fence, she says that it is needed. It's not the best thing around, but the only thing that seems to keep them safer than before.

What is her opinion on the fact that Isreal get´s louds of money from the US to fight against the palestanies?

Who came first? Palestanies or the Isrealis?

Why do the all of the Arab world dislike the Isreal?

Why is Isreal considered in Europe? They are e.g. in Eurovision but geographical they are in the middle east.

What did most Israelis think of the war in Afganistan? The Iraq War? The War on Terror (and ruthless dictators :D) in general?

Why is Isreal considered in Europe? They are e.g. in Eurovision but geographical they are in the middle east.
It is not considered part of Europe. But the Arabs don´t play with them.
So, the "evil" Europeans have invited Israel to participate on this contests.
Israel is after all part of "the west". And it is in that position inevitably in conflict with the rest of the Middle East.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the situation in Israel, and I keep seeing inaccurate information on this.

I have a friend over from Jerusalem, and she would be happy to answer your questions, if she can.

Ask away!

What's it like no longer having a knob?

What do you see as the future of Israel. Especially in respect to mulilateral organisations.
Or to be cynical: Arab league or EU? Or none of the above? But then: what else?

bump

I reckon neither. Israel has an unique place in the middle east, and ergo probably won't go either way. It's more likely, to be honest, to adopt the dollar than join the arab league! As soon as the Palestinians have a viable and legal state which does not harbour terrorists, then things can move forward and Israel will be more supported and less maligned for doing what it has to to survive.

Why do Israelis bitch and moan about terrorism when they instigate it with illegal settlements and occupation?

I reckon neither. Israel has an unique place in the middle east, and ergo probably won't go either way. It's more likely, to be honest, to adopt the dollar than join the arab league! As soon as the Palestinians have a viable and legal state which does not harbour terrorists, then things can move forward and Israel will be more supported and less maligned for doing what it has to to survive.
And how likely is that?
I´m asking because of some comments by Silvan Shalom a while ago about the possibilty of an Israeli EU membership in the long-run.
Currently the EU is more or less disintegrating into a free-trade pact. By allowing Turkey in - which certainly needs ten or twenty years - it would open the gate to the Middle East.
Since that is the case it would be in some way a logical step to go for that in the long-run.

Why do Israelis bitch and moan about terrorism when they instigate it with illegal settlements and occupation?

Settlements justify terrorism... how? Don't get me wrong, I despise the settlements. But to claim that their mere existence justifies killing people- no. Don't buy it.

Settlements justify terrorism... how? Don't get me wrong, I despise the settlements. But to claim that their mere existence justifies killing people- no. Don't buy it.

I never said they justify terrorism. They don't. No cause, no matter how just, justifies terrorism.
But Hamas and people like them don't think that way.

I never said they justify terrorism. They don't. No cause, no matter how just, justifies terrorism.
But Hamas and people like them don't think that way.

Sorry, but I call bullshit. You didn't make that distinction in your post.

Why do Israelis bitch and moan about terrorism when they instigate it with illegal settlements and occupation?

So you're saying that that post was written from the perspective of Palestinian terrorists, or what?

She thinks that calling Palestinian homicide bombers 'heroes' is disgusting. Also, she thinks that Israel is entitled to retaliate, but too much as it only causes more problems.
Curfews are there to try and stop the terrorists from moving around at night and therefore stop them from launching attacks.

Does the curfew also apply to Israelis, or just Palestinians?

I believe that Israel has every right to retaliate against terrorists, but not in a manner that causes unnessecary collateral damage

what can be considered "neccecary collatarle damage" when retaliating against terrorists? is leveling a house used as a firing position moral, given that the people in it are unwilling parties to the shooting?

what can be considered "neccecary collatarle damage" when retaliating against terrorists? is leveling a house used as a firing position moral, given that the people in it are unwilling parties to the shooting?

But what's the alternative? Build a wall between the house and the firing positions tall enough to block any fire? Post troops outside the house? Threaten the family if they "let" terrorists use their house again? Or just shrug your shoulders and tell those being fired on, "Suck it up"?

I don't see any easy answers here.

If somebody comes and invades your home claiming that it was in fact "his" home thousands of year ago, what would you do ? I believe Israel is an artificially founded country supported by the US. US vetoed more than 120 United Nations bills against Israel. That is, no country is right in the world, but only the US and Israel are !! And that is the case for more than 120 times !! Bah !! Israel is a terrorist country occupying palestinians' lands by using her US-supported military power. I do not like those uncivilized palestenians either, but I can see that their lands are taken from their hands by an invader who is always hiding behind the shadow of that holocaust thing !! I don't like Israel, and do not find them sincere about peace.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about the situation in Israel, and I keep seeing inaccurate information on this.

I have a friend over from Jerusalem, and she would be happy to answer your questions, if she can.

Ask away!

And I live in Ashdod, so I can help. :)

Sorry, but I call bullshit. You didn't make that distinction in your post.

You do seem to be the expert on bullshit.

So you're saying that that post was written from the perspective of Palestinian terrorists, or what?

If Israel evacuates all settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, they will get peace. Terrorism will not completely disappear, but once a viable Palestinian state is established, Israel can work with the Palestinian government to fight the terrorists. Arafat will hopefully have died by this time.

If somebody comes and invades your home claiming that it was in fact "his" home thousands of year ago, what would you do ? I believe Israel is an artificially founded country supported by the US. US vetoed more than 120 United Nations bills against Israel. That is, no country is right in the world, but only the US and Israel are !! And that is the case for more than 120 times !! Bah !! Israel is a terrorist country occupying palestinians' lands by using her US-supported military power. I do not like those uncivilized palestenians either, but I can see that their lands are taken from their hands by an invader who is always hiding behind the shadow of that holocaust thing !! I don't like Israel, and do not find them sincere about peace.

Exactly. In no way does this justify terrorism on the Palestinians behalf. Though face it, they are desperate and oppressed. Israel ought to take a lot of responsiblity for her actions and stop blaming everything on the Palestinians. It's sickening and hypocritical.

If somebody comes and invades your home claiming that it was in fact "his" home thousands of year ago, what would you do ?

Flawed comparison, since the Palestinians lived on the land but it was not THEIR state- in fact very few of them owned any of the land they lived on.

I believe Israel is an artificially founded country supported by the US. US vetoed more than 120 United Nations bills against Israel. That is, no country is right in the world, but only the US and Israel are !! And that is the case for more than 120 times !!

The US sees many UN bills as being overly prejudiced against Israel. I'm inclined to agree, although I disagree with many Israeli policies.

Bah !! Israel is a terrorist country

What constitutes a "terrorist country"?

occupying palestinians' lands

Their home, yes. Their land, no. The land belonged to the Ottomans, then the British, then the UN divided it, creating what WOULD have been the first Palestinian state. Then the Arab armies attacked Israel, with Israel defending its original boundaries, as well as gaining territory, with the Jordanians getting the West Bank, which they have relinquished their claim on after 1967.

There is still no Palestinian state. One day I hope to see one.

I do not like those uncivilized palestenians either, but I can see that their lands are taken from their hands by an invader

The Arab armies attacked first, sorry.

who is always hiding behind the shadow of that holocaust thing !!

Examples?

I don't like Israel, and do not find them sincere about peace.

How is that relevant to this thread?

"The US sees many UN bills as being overly prejudiced against Israel."

AND ONLY US CAN SEE IT AMONG MORE THAN 130 COUNTRIES !! THE KING IS NAKED, MAN !!

"Flawed comparison, since the Palestinians lived on the land but it was not THEIR state- in fact very few of them owned any of the land they lived on"

AT LEAST THEY ALL "LİVED" THERE, WHERE WERE THE JEWS ? AH, THEY WERE SOMEWHERE IN EUROPE AND US, I'M SORRY !! THEY RETURNED THEIR HOMES AFTER SOME THOUSANDS YEAR.

"What constitutes a "terrorist country"?"

IF THE REST OF THE WORLD (EXCEPT THE HOLY EMPIRE OF THE US) OPPOSES YOU, IF YOU KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE AND CHILDREN UNDER NAME OF "PEACE OPERATION" YOU ARE A TERRORIST COUNTRY. IF EVEN CHILDREN FIND THE COURAGE TO DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY WITH STONES VERSUS YOUR US-SUPPLIED HIGH-TECH MILITARY VEHICLES, YOU ARE A TERRORIST COUNTRY..

Israel is a seed of hatret in middle east..which dangereously began to spread to US.

Let's remember for the sake of history that in 1928 Great Britain took control of Palestine from the Ottoman Turkish Empire after World War I. They preceeded to split Palestine across the Jordan river. The eastern part was named Trans-Jordan and King Hussein was established as the monarch. Trans-Jordan recieved its independance right away. The western part, which continued to be called Palestine stayed in control of Britain. There was almost constant violence and negotiations seemed to failing. In 1948 Britain gave their headache over to the UN. The UN split Western Palestine, creating Jewish and Arab states. As a beautiful "welcome to the neighborhood" present, the Arab League held an emergency meeting in Cairo, Egypt, and voted to reject the creation of Israel, and thus attacked it. Egypt took over Gaza and Jordan (the Trans part was dropped later) annexed the West Bank. With Israel having had secured the middle area it left the Palestinians wondering what happened to their country the UN had promised them, the majority had been already taken by other Arab countries.

By the way, I definitetly do not like palestinians and any other arab countries. Because I do not trust their politics. But Israel is no better than them. All are good matches for eachother !!

Middleeast was safe and secure for several hundred years. I know that in most of the holy places in Jerusalem, still those rules set by ottoman turks are being applied. Because both parties (jews and arabs) agreed on those rules. So why a land of freedom (freedom in terms of religious practices, education, culture, trade and tax exemptions) became a mess after British Invasion ? ...by the way...ottomans lost those lands to british in 1918 not in 1928. In 1928, there was no ottoman empire

"The US sees many UN bills as being overly prejudiced against Israel."

AND ONLY US CAN SEE IT AMONG MORE THAN 130 COUNTRIES !! THE KING IS NAKED, MAN !!

I'm willing to admit the US is biased in favor of Israel. Are you saying that none of the UN nations are biased AGAINST it? Who here is seeing invisible clothes?

AT LEAST THEY ALL "LİVED" THERE, WHERE WERE THE JEWS ? AH, THEY WERE SOMEWHERE IN EUROPE AND US, I'M SORRY !! THEY RETURNED THEIR HOMES AFTER SOME THOUSANDS YEAR.

First, there were Jews who lived in the area, although they were far from constituting a majority. Regardless, this is irrelevant to my point, which regarded land OWNERSHIP. Try again.

IF THE REST OF THE WORLD (EXCEPT THE HOLY EMPIRE OF THE US) OPPOSES YOU, IF YOU KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE AND CHILDREN UNDER NAME OF "PEACE OPERATION" YOU ARE A TERRORIST COUNTRY. IF EVEN CHILDREN FIND THE COURAGE TO DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY WITH STONES VERSUS YOUR US-SUPPLIED HIGH-TECH MILITARY VEHICLES, YOU ARE A TERRORIST COUNTRY..

No other country kills children? Palestinians don't kill children? What about the Sderot attack last week where a rocket blew two Israeli toddlers to pieces? I find it fascinating that you argue the fact that Palestinian children are trying to kill Israelis, soldiers and civilians alike, is proof of "courage" and not an indoctrination of hatred.

Israel is a seed of hatret in middle east..which dangereously began to spread to US.

Right. Israel is the only country with "hatred" in the Middle East. How foolish for me to not recognize Palestine, Iraq, Iran, and Saudi Arabia for being the "loveshacks" which they so clearly are... :rolleyes:

By the way, I definitetly do not like palestinians and any other arab countries. Because I do not trust their politics. But Israel is no better than them. All are good matches for eachother !!

And yet you single out Israel. Making you a hypocrite, as well as full of shit. Sorry.

I know that in most of the holy places in Jerusalem, still those rules set by ottoman turks are being applied. Because both parties (jews and arabs) agreed on those rules.

When Jordan had control of Jerusalem, it used the Western Wall as a garbage dump and barred Jews from the area. I doubt anyone "agreed" to that.

Do jews keep a golden coin under their yamakas to pay yahweh when they die?

Do jews keep a golden coin under their yamakas to pay yahweh when they die?

No, you're thinking of Greek mythology. Charon the boat-dude who takes people across the river Styx.

Jews are buried in plain shrouds and in unadorned wooden caskets. No personal belongings are interrred with them.

unadorned wooden caskets.

Jews are buried in shrouds, with no caskets at all. There is no gold coins or such things about.

Jews are buried in shrouds, with no caskets at all. There is no gold coins or such things about.

Regarding coffins- it looks like it varies.

http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm

The body must not be cremated. It must be buried in the earth. Coffins are not required, but if they are used, they must have holes drilled in them so the body comes in contact with the earth.

http://judaism.about.com/library/3_lifecycles/shiva/blshiva1.htm

The deceased is dressed in a shroud. All human beings are considered equal, and therefore, are all dressed in the same manner. Poor and rich alike are dressed in a simple and white garment without pockets. He is then wrapped in a prayer shawl with one of the fringes cut to symbolize the mourning period and loss. The casket, too, is simple and made completely of wood (in Israel no caskets are used at all; the body is put into the ground in the prayer shawl). The concept is that wood decomposes at the same rate as the body.


http://www.myjewishlearning.com/lifecycle/Death/Burial_Mourning/Casket.htm

Judaism is also concerned that the body return to the earth as soon as possible. "For you are dust, and unto dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:19). This value is reflected in the preference within Jewish law for a simple casket (aron) constructed of wood. Wood naturally decomposes while a metal casket would prevent the body from "returning" to the earth. Although metal nails and handles may theoretically be used, traditional caskets use wooden pegs, the interior is unlined, and some have four holes in the bottom that allow the body to come into contact with the earth.

The type of wood used in the casket is not important. In some areas, a "plain pine box" is used; in others, a redwood casket is common. The wood may be polished or natural. Sometimes, a wooden Magen David (Star of David) is attached to the top of the coffin.

The choice of coffin is often a task that causes emotional reaction among the bereaved. Most large funeral homes have a "casket room," a display area filled with the variety of available coffins. For many, walking into this room brings the bereaved into stark confrontation with the reality of death facing them. For some, it can be a terribly disconcerting experience. For others, it brings a sense of peace and relief. Whatever the reaction, it is a task that must be done.

Rabbinic authorities recommend the selection of the simplest of caskets, both to reflect the value of democracy in death and to avoid unnecessary expense. The range in cost of caskets is extraordinary--it ranges from several hundred to thousands of dollars. It is preferable to donate monies to tzedakah [charity] rather than to spend it on lavish caskets.

You can't take sides with Isreal and Palestine... they both have corrut governments... it's sad that so many people should die at the hands of dictators.

Do jews keep a golden coin under their yamakas to pay yahweh when they die?

Is this a joke?

On that note, no matter how much gold they keep under their caps...no baptizim, no salvation. No faith in YHWH and Yahsha, no salvation.

Is this a joke?

On that note, no matter how much gold they keep under their caps...no baptizim, no salvation. No faith in YHWH and Yahsha, no salvation.
Religious nutjobs, you can't beat 'em can you?

Religious nutjobs, you can't beat 'em can you?

How so?

Oh I made a mistake too.

People who know of YHWHs word must be baptized and have faith - if not then they turn their back on him, and when they die he will turn his back on them.

People who have never gotten a chance to hear the word of YHWH may still be saved when they are judged.

You just can't accept that there are other world views to yours can you? Not everyone believes what you do. Your branch of religious fanatiscism is starting to resemble Tenete Traditiones.

You just can't accept that there are other world views to yours can you? Not everyone believes what you do. Your branch of religious fanatiscism is starting to resemble Tenete Traditiones.

The fact is, my faith tells me what I have just said. While I don't go out to call other religions false, the fact is...they are. Sorry but its true. True some people might have different views to me, but they worship idols and while it may offend some people it isn't my goal. I am just stating my faith which is the only true faith. I am sorry to those who are offended but I am told to not side with the non believers and if that means pointing out their corrupt and idol worship then I guess it is my mission to point it out.

P.S. this is my last post for the...er morning. I am (insert every word that can mean "Tired")

Okay, so it can easily be said there it is very hard to decide who is the "good guy" in the situation (when looking at the ruling parties of both sides), but here's something I thought might be a viable solution or at least a step in the right direction:

The Palestinians in the territories and surrounding nations are in a very bad space no matter what side you are on. They are living in very decrepit enviornments, surrounded by either foreign military or by zeloutous terrorists (the major cause of unnatural death in the territories is inter-Palestinian violence by many terrorist groups) and the countries around Israel are willing to fund terrorism to get the refugees out of their contries before the demographics are permanently thrown off (for example, Palestinians outnumber native Jordanians in Jordan.)

Whatever you want to call it (Israeli territory or occupied lands) Israel has many people within its sphere of influance, Palestinian and Isreali. However, just like the US in Iraq, even if you call it an occupation, Israel has a responsability to all the PEOPLE (not just citizens) living within its power.

One reason many Palestinians may be so ready to die and unwilling to negotiate is because they have very little to live for. In the territories there are few jobs, very little infastructure, poor living conditions, and an education system reeking of indoctrinated hatred.

What if Israel would seek to raise the standard of living in the territories to the same standard of living they have in Isreal proper? Bring in better sanitation and living conditions, a real (non-political) education system for the children, and some real industry to make jobs? Then at least the Pelestinian leadership mught stabalize and negotiations might be more feasible.

Whatever you want to call it (Israeli territory or occupied lands) Israel has many people within its sphere of influance, Palestinian and Isreali. However, just like the US in Iraq, even if you call it an occupation, Israel has a responsability to all the PEOPLE (not just citizens) living within its power.

The difference, however, is that the US is in "control" (more or less) of Iraq, whereas Israel isn't policing places like Gaza, but rather keeping the gates locked, and letting whatever happens inside happens (unless, of course, it happens in proximity to a settlement).

Once you control a country, you can work on rebuilding it. When there's another government, which is both hostile to you and to which you are hostile, it's hard to help improve their standard of living, particularly since that would one of two things.

1- You going into the area personally. I can't really see any Israelis volunteering to build anything for the Palestinians in Gaza, for instance, and not merely because of bitterness, but also the very real possibility they might get killed. There's also the fact that such aid might simply be denied by the population- what are the odds a Palestinian group wouldn't blow up whatever the "Imperialist Israelis" build there? They'd probably even condemn Israel for doing it, seeing it as patronizing- indeed, in some ways, it is. They want their own state, and Israel, what, gives their village a school? Improved plumbing? Wow, thanks.

2- You giving money to the government. Knowing the extent of the PA's corruption, as well as the fact that a significant chunk of its money has gone to finance violence against Israel, there's no way in hell any Israeli govt would presently consent to giving the PA more money.

There's also the issue that while Israel is certainly responsible for its fair share of the Palestinians' misery, that a large amount of blame falls on the Palestinian leaders themselves. I can imagine a lot of Israelis being pretty angry and/or reluctant about giving more money and/or human effort into rebuilding Palestinian society when they've been trying to kill them for the past 4 years- combine this with the fact that they still haven't stopped. Why, they might ask, should THEIR MONEY go to people who want them dead, and whose misery has a great deal to do with their OWN leaders?

One reason many Palestinians may be so ready to die and unwilling to negotiate is because they have very little to live for. In the territories there are few jobs, very little infastructure, poor living conditions, and an education system reeking of indoctrinated hatred.

And how exactly is Israel supposed to, for instance, fix the Palestinian education system while the Intifada's going on? My understanding is that most of the schools have been closed, in some cases, for years, due to both Palestinian pressure and the reality of the IDF installing massive curfews.

Is it supposed to re-write the Palestinians' own textbooks? Do you think they'd really be accepted, what with all the "Zionist bias" inherent in them? Should they give the PA more money for textbooks, so they can go to Arafat's bank account (or finance more attacks)?

That would be like suggesting the US give Saddam Hussein money to get food for the Iraqis. No President would have agreed to that without massive controls over knowing where the money was going.

What if Israel would seek to raise the standard of living in the territories to the same standard of living they have in Isreal proper? Bring in better sanitation and living conditions, a real (non-political) education system for the children, and some real industry to make jobs? Then at least the Pelestinian leadership mught stabalize and negotiations might be more feasible.

It's a basic chicken-and-egg problem. Until there's a moderate (and at least potentially powerful) leadership in place, it seems impossible for Israel to make practical improvements in the standard of living. The only alternative to "the waiting game" is for Israel to re-occupy the territories, kick the PA out, and then try to improve conditions. And somehow I doubt they'd be well-received.

The fact is, my faith tells me what I have just said. While I don't go out to call other religions false, the fact is...they are.

So you're a hypocrite and a liar. Well, nothing new there.

while it may offend some people it isn't my goal. I am just stating my faith which is the only true faith.

So exactly what IS your goal? Are you trying to get converts?

I am sorry to those who are offended but I am told to not side with the non believers and if that means pointing out their corrupt and idol worship then I guess it is my mission to point it out.

Sounds more like it would be your "mission" to stay away from places where non-believers congregate. Feel free to skedaddle.

As of right now, you haven't done more besides offend and annoy. If you have loftier intentions, you might want to rethink your game plan. Assuming, of course, that you're not merely a Jew-baiting troll.

How so?

Oh I made a mistake too.

People who know of YHWHs word must be baptized and have faith - if not then they turn their back on him, and when they die he will turn his back on them.

People who have never gotten a chance to hear the word of YHWH may still be saved when they are judged.

Go live in iran if you want to be a religous fundementalist.

Taliban barbarian.

Hi, I support Israel and I think it's disgusting that people can justify suicide bombings. It is sick and a crime against humanity. I pray to god that terrorism will end as soon as possible. There are just too many victims.