NationStates Jolt Archive

since these kinds of threads are apparantly unbanned, i figured: "what the hey? why not start one?"

so yeah, any questions?

Does God exist?

:)

Sorry, I couldn't resist!

lol.

i wasn't actually expecting that, oddly enough, but to take the nature of this thread seriously: i don't know, no one really knows until they die, and when they do, they're not exactly able to communicate with us, now are they?

wait wait lemme guess...
You are not sure, so you cant say.
Nice thread.
EDIT: the "Nice Thread" above was not sarcasm. I am irrated with these "ask a" threads as if some neophyte of one particular thing was going to enlighten someone over the internet. Ask an Agnostic is...in a word....funny.

You don't believe in seances, then?

since these kinds of threads are apparantly unbanned, i figured: "what the hey? why not start one?"

so yeah, any questions?
hey Miss Agnostic! i'm an obnoxious and ill-informed General forum poster, and i want to tell you that you have to be either an atheist or a religious person (specifically, Christian) because those are the only two religious/philosophical orientations we have! if you don't actively believe in my concept of God then you must be atheist, but if you believe there is any possibility at all that some form of God might exist then you are clearly religious and we won't let you in the Atheist Club!

thanks, have a nice day!

There's an Athiests/Agnostics club here, we have a few Christians and Muslims as members. It's pretty cool, especially for a university stuffed full of uber-religious students. (Gag.)

You don't believe in seances, then?

give me some scientific evidence that they work.

i'm on too tight a budget to test it out myself currently, plus i don't know where i'd find a psychic for that.

there is some evidence for reincarnation, but i don't think much research has been done into it... and at any rate, supposedly when a person is reincarnated, they forget the inbetween state most.

give me some scientific evidence that they work. Can't, 'fraid such evidence doesn't exist. ;)

hey Miss Agnostic! i'm an obnoxious and ill-informed General forum poster, and i want to tell you that you have to be either an atheist or a religious person (specifically, Christian) because those are the only two religious/philosophical orientations we have! if you don't actively believe in my concept of God then you must be atheist, but if you believe there is any possibility at all that some form of God might exist then you are clearly religious and we won't let you in the Atheist Club!

thanks, have a nice day!

that's ok, i can be a club of one...

There's an Athiests/Agnostics club here, we have a few Christians and Muslims as members. It's pretty cool, especially for a university stuffed full of uber-religious students. (Gag.)

i was actually considering starting one up here, i think it would be fun and maybe we could start a petition against all the christian pamphlet forcers (they force pamphlets into people's hands, sometimes even copies of the new testament) it's quite annoying.

There's an Athiests/Agnostics club here, we have a few Christians and Muslims as members. It's pretty cool, especially for a university stuffed full of uber-religious students. (Gag.)

Where, and how do I join?

that's ok, i can be a club of one...

*Bottle stands, forlorn, outside of Club Dakini, peering hopefully in the window*

hello? hellooooo? can i come in, too? i brought chips!

*Bottle stands, forlorn, outside of Club Dakini, peering hopefully in the window*

hello? hellooooo? can i come in, too? i brought chips!

sure, why not. i have cookies if you want some.

Why are you so indecisive? Isn't everything either black-or-white? ;)

i was actually considering starting one up here, i think it would be fun and maybe we could start a petition against all the christian pamphlet forcers (they force pamphlets into people's hands, sometimes even copies of the new testament) it's quite annoying.You should do it! The club here participates mainly in service activities - campus service and community service. We also just hang out, watch movies, and chat about religions. Our goal is to off-set the major and disproportionate Christian presence on campus.

Last year, the first year of the club, we built a shack on the lawn to raise awareness about homelessness in the city, and money for Habitat for Humanity. Some Christain frat guys came in and tore it down, screaming obsenties at the guy who was there and accusing all non-Christains of having a hatred for God and his people. The campus newspaper covered it and we got wide recognition of our club, through people comdemning the frat guys actions. It was actually pretty cool (well, not for the guy actually in the shack).

Anyway, I'm not sure I have a point with this, except to point out yet another problem with Christian frats, and encourage you to spread the good word, so to speak. ;)

hey Miss Agnostic! i'm an obnoxious and ill-informed General forum poster, and i want to tell you that you have to be either an atheist or a religious person (specifically, Christian) because those are the only two religious/philosophical orientations we have! if you don't actively believe in my concept of God then you must be atheist, but if you believe there is any possibility at all that some form of God might exist then you are clearly religious and we won't let you in the Atheist Club!

thanks, have a nice day!

LOL

Where, and how do I join?
At the University of Oklahoma, but if you're interested in something locally, I'd check out the secular students organization - they're all over the country.

http://www.secularstudents.org/

Obviously you're agnostic now, but were you always so, or did you start out as religious/atheist?

there is some evidence for reincarnation,

Personally, I'm not familiar with any evidence supporting reincarnation. I am, however, familiar with evidence demonstrating that past-life regression (and, in fact, regression in general) is fake. So, what kind of evidence supporting reincarnation are you talking about?

maybe we could start a petition against all the christian pamphlet forcers (they force pamphlets into people's hands, sometimes even copies of the new testament) it's quite annoying.

I'm not sure how someone can force a pamphlet into your hand... at least, not without committing simple (that is, unarmed) assault. Even if the person places the pamphlet directly in the palm of your hand, you can always just drop it. Of course, if you're not holding something else, you could always cross your arms or put your hands into your pockets or something... I guess my point is, how far do they go to "force" pamphlets into people's hands?

Last year, the first year of the club, we built a shack on the lawn to raise awareness about homelessness in the city, and money for Habitat for Humanity. Some Christain frat guys came in and tore it down, screaming obsenties at the guy who was there and accusing all non-Christains of having a hatred for God and his people.

That wasn't a very Christian thing to do...

Obviously you're agnostic now, but were you always so, or did you start out as religious/atheist?

well, i was born into christianity. i can't remember what protestant church i was baptized at, but my dad alter determined that the sect was still too close to catholicism (he was raised a catholic) so we left that church and started to attend a presbyterian church.

when i got around the age of 14 or so, i started to read into the "occult" but then stopped when people in church were on about how evil it was. though i always had questions and when i'd ask and ask and ask, eventually it would get to a point where it was "because that's how god made things" and that was the end of that. i started to feel isolated as my sunday school classmates seemed to have no problem accepting what they were told and i grew tired of holding up the class asking questions all the time, so i stopped doing that.

eventually, around 16, i stopped attending church and read the bible on my own. the more i read it, the more it felt like it didn't fit me. i then deceided christianity wasn't right for me.

i read up on a variety of religions (and i'm still doing so, just at a slower pace due to school) and thus far haven't found one that suits me (though i am quite interested in buddhism) and lately, i've come to the conclusion that i don't think i'll ever know one way or the other whether there's something greater out there, as by religious definitions, god is something that cannot be empirically tested, and if it can't be empirically tested, then how can its existence be confirmed or denied?

so i figure it's best to just live my life, try to be happy and make those around me happy as well, because as far as i know, we get one life, if that's all we get, then it might as well be as pleasant as possible for everyone, and if there's more to it, then hey, if god's (or the gods) mature about it, then i don't think s/eh/it/them would really care what i believed in life.

That wasn't a very Christian thing to do...Most of the campus agreed. I'm just saying that we managed to bring some of this intolerance and cruelty into public awareness.

Personally, I'm not familiar with any evidence supporting reincarnation. I am, however, familiar with evidence demonstrating that past-life regression (and, in fact, regression in general) is fake. So, what kind of evidence supporting reincarnation are you talking about?

well, there have been a number of instances where a child has been born into a family where say, aunt myrtle has died recently. and this kid, upon meeting say, uncle joe, myrtle's brother, will recognize him without introduction.
there's also tibetian system of finding their lamas, who will recognize persons in the previous lama's life by name, without introduction, and pick out posessions that belonged to the predacessor and claim them to be theirs.
though it's not scientifically tested, so it's a little iffy.

I'm not sure how someone can force a pamphlet into your hand... at least, not without committing simple (that is, unarmed) assault. Even if the person places the pamphlet directly in the palm of your hand, you can always just drop it. Of course, if you're not holding something else, you could always cross your arms or put your hands into your pockets or something... I guess my point is, how far do they go to "force" pamphlets into people's hands?

i'm a bit of a hand talker, so if i'm walking through the student centre talking to someone, i tend to have my hands out of my pockets, not clenched in fists, perfect opportunity for someone to just shove somethign in there.

also, being canadian, i think i'm just too damn polite to tell someone to fuck off and shove the pamphelt where the sun doesn't shine.

awws... my thread died already.

*wipes away a tear*

I have a question. You accept neither that there is a God, nor that there is not one, but does this go for any God at all, or are there some gods that are satisfactorily logically contradictory for you to discard them?

I have a question. You accept neither that there is a God, nor that there is not one, but does this go for any God at all, or are there some gods that are satisfactorily logically contradictory for you to discard them?

not that i'm aware of.

as far as i know, there's just as much of a likelihood of having the greek pantheon as the norse or hindhu, or even a single god...

though i somehow doubt there would be a god as how many evangelists and catholics present it. though the god itself contradicts itself between the old and new testaments... but then it could be that this god just kept choosing poor messengers.

personally i think that all religions suck! start your own do what you want to. whats the point of of following some lame rules about chastity, and all that bs, when you can just repent your sins before you die. and i don't see why the church has to use scare tactics to get people to join their religion the only thing that is positive the church uses to brainwash... oops! i mean convert people is heaven. cant they think of anything else. they are all hypocrites too. doesn't the bible say you are supposed to love everyone no matter what but it seems most christians/catholics or whatever they call themselves judge you by how "christian" you are. and if you aren't christian enough they won't talk to you. well i got something to say to them.... "YOUR GOD IS A MYTH AND CHRIST IS DEAD! SO GET A LIFE AND STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYONE ELSE'S."

Those who don't believe in God because of the lack of empirical evidence are missing the entire point. You don't believe in God because of so-called "evidence": you believe in God because of faith.

This is why agnosticism is a crock of crap. I respect atheists, in a way: but not those who are incapable of making a true decision.

EDIT: Except him. ^^^

*mindless rant*

"YOUR GOD IS A MYTH AND CHRIST IS DEAD! SO GET A LIFE AND STOP TRYING TO CONTROL EVERYONE ELSE'S."

Oh, the irony! The irony!

no, what if I believe that if there is a God or gods, humans dont have the capability of fully realizing this because of the limits on our brains.

Humans cant comprehend God (taking for granted that there is a God) just because they are humans and have human restrictions.

[By the way, I support this 'ask a' thread! Fight the Power!]

Those who don't believe in God because of the lack of empirical evidence are missing the entire point. You don't believe in God because of so-called "evidence": you believe in God because of faith.

This is why agnosticism is a crock of crap. I respect atheists, in a way: but not those who are incapable of making a true decision.

EDIT: Except him. ^^^

Actually, I don't believe in god cuz I'm just not capable of a leap of faith like that. Of course I respect religions; I just don't like the scare-tactics some people employ.

I do not believe in God because I believe that, given no knowledge of God, but unlimited ability to logically deduce whether he existed or not, one would conclude that he did not.

Those who don't believe in God because of the lack of empirical evidence are missing the entire point. You don't believe in God because of so-called "evidence": you believe in God because of faith.

well, i don't have faith. i don't have faith that there isn't a (or many) god(s) either.

This is why agnosticism is a crock of crap. I respect atheists, in a way: but not those who are incapable of making a true decision.

why do i have to make a decision on this subject?

how does it directly affect my life?

so why not examine all the evidence with an open mind before i make a decision?

no, what if I believe that if there is a God or gods, humans dont have the capability of fully realizing this because of the limits on our brains.

Humans cant comprehend God (taking for granted that there is a God) just because they are humans and have human restrictions.

i agree with this as well. :)

[By the way, I support this 'ask a' thread! Fight the Power!]

why thank you!

have a cookie. *offers cookie* :)

i agree with this as well. :)



why thank you!

have a cookie. *offers cookie* :)
thanks!

also, i absolutly respect everyone from Catholics to Buddhists to Muslims to Athiests on their beliefs, because they might (unlikely, but w/e) right... so who knows?

Will you marry me?

yeah, well, i respect people of faith (or lack thereof) so long as they don't go about trying to force others to fit their mould.

Those who don't believe in God because of the lack of empirical evidence are missing the entire point. You don't believe in God because of so-called "evidence": you believe in God because of faith.

This is why agnosticism is a crock of crap. I respect atheists, in a way: but not those who are incapable of making a true decision.
But life can have its ups and downs for some people, and along the way, faith can get tested, sometimes quite severely. Certain people's faith can be destroyed, restored and then destroyed again - true agnostics I find, are people who are so so sick with experience they can't be bothered to think about it anymore...

Will you marry me?

who are you asking?

Well you offered cookies... That usually does it for me

hey Miss Agnostic! i'm an obnoxious and ill-informed General forum poster, and i want to tell you that you have to be either an atheist or a religious person (specifically, Christian) because those are the only two religious/philosophical orientations we have! if you don't actively believe in my concept of God then you must be atheist, but if you believe there is any possibility at all that some form of God might exist then you are clearly religious and we won't let you in the Atheist Club!

thanks, have a nice day!

You miss the whole intirepoint of agnosticism so if you dont know what your talking about dont say anything. Agnostic people and atheist people are just as religious as Christians or Luthrens it just different from them. Agnostic people know there is nothing to prove gods existence on either side so they choose not to blindly belive in something that is possibly wrong.

thanks, have a nice day!

Hmm... semi-seriousness here. Sorry to break up your party.

First off, I respect people for who they are. Idiots come in all shapes and forms and I have even spoken to agnostics who try to force others to believe that nothing can be believed (though they are a rare breed, thankfully).

Secondly I have often been accused (not that it's a bad thing) of being agnostic because one of my core values is a belief in knowledge and uncertainty. Due to this belief I am constantly reorganizing my beliefs as core principles of importance are somewhat conclusively shown to be false or unlikely. An example would be when I was very young I ran across evidence that the Bible was very unlikely to be wholly true because of recopying and translating. Then my entire faith system was rebuilt from the ground up.

Is it actually a trait of agnostics to completely change their beliefs (not necessarily religious) "at the drop of a hat?" Or am I completely alone in this world?

who are you asking?

You.

You miss the whole intirepoint of agnosticism so if you dont know what your talking about dont say anything.

bottle wrote what is called a joke.

Agnostic people and atheist people are just as religious as Christians or Luthrens it just different from them. Agnostic people know there is nothing to prove gods existence on either side so they choose not to blindly belive in something that is possibly wrong.

how are agnostics thus as religious as theists? that doesn't even make sense.

I do not believe in God because I believe that, given no knowledge of God, but unlimited ability to logically deduce whether he existed or not, one would conclude that he did not.
Based on what evidence? Or do you just accept this on faith?

Is it actually a trait of agnostics to completely change their beliefs (not necessarily religious) "at the drop of a hat?" Or am I completely alone in this world?

i've changed my beliefs a couple times...

when i get really interested in something, i go through a period of time where i'm continually exploring it and i try on the philosophy or religion a bit... for instance when i was exploring wicca, i tried a couple spells and contemplated naming puture children after celtic gods and goddesses... my screnname is the result of my interest in buddhism (dakini is angel in sanskrit, one of the other names i use from time to time vajaradakini is sort of the female incarnation of the bodhsavita(sp?)) my reading of neitzsche introduced me to the concept of moral realtvism, all kinds of little things add up and at different points in time, i'm more influenced by one than the other.

i don't think i've had a complete and sudden rework of everything i believe in though.

I do not believe in God because I believe that, given no knowledge of God, but unlimited ability to logically deduce whether he existed or not, one would conclude that he did not.
Yes, that is bizarre logic, Clonetopia, you do need to formulate a better assertion than that. Your conclusion doesnt necessarily follow from your premiss...

Complete re-workings become more and more rare as more knowledge is added to the mix, but I think that in the past 4 years or so I've probably completely changed everything a couple times. Oh well, I got the answer I expected.

Those who don't believe in God because of the lack of empirical evidence are missing the entire point. You don't believe in God because of so-called "evidence": you believe in God because of faith.

This is why agnosticism is a crock of crap. I respect atheists, in a way: but not those who are incapable of making a true decision.

and that's where you are totally wrong about agnosticism.

an agnostic has far more respect for any potential diety than any believer possibly could. an agnostic isn't undecided, but rather has decided that it is wrong to make what is essentially a random choice of which of many possible Gods to believe in, especially since there is no evidence for ANY of them in the first place. an agnostic is too honest to use "faith" to pick whichever god he or she thinks sounds nicest. an agnostic realizes that pure emotion and our personal desires are not good criterion for conclusions about the Creator of the universe.

i am agnostic, and i am anything but undecided. i have very strongly and definitively decided that i do not have enough information to know if a) there is a God, b) which of the many human dieties (if any) that God resembles, or c) how i should go about expressing worship of God, assuming that i should worship at all, and since i have no information to work with it would be irresponsible and dishonest of me to just pick whatever feels good and claim that it's the truth. it would be a diservice to myself to reduce my world-view to nothing more than what i personally find comforting.

if you think that the lack of evidence shouldn't have any bearing on what a person believes, then i am sure you recognize that belief in the Tooth Fairy is just as theologically valid as your belief in God. if i believe that my dog is telling me to kill, then my belief is just as important as your belief that God tells you not to sin...we both have the same amount of evidence for our positions, after all, and according to you our faith is all that matters. an adult human who believes in the literal existence of Santa Claus should not be regarded as insane or troubled, based on your estimation, and their belief in Santa should be respected far more than the beliefs that Santa is most likely a fictional character.

all that "faith" means is that you have decided you like a particular fable, and so you are going to believe in it because it makes you feel better. that has no bearing on whether or not you are believing in anything praiseworthy. being decisively delusional is not a virtue.

put it this way: if you believe God created you, and that God made you exactly as you should be, then God gave you your mind. God gave you, alone of all known life, the ability to reason, to ask, to test, and to demand more from yourself than instinctive, emotional responses. God gave you the ability to be stronger than your fears.

Yes, that is bizarre logic, Clonetopia, you do need to formulate a better assertion than that. Your conclusion doesnt necessarily follow from your premiss...

My post, though mentioning logic, was not intended as a logical deduction in itself. It was also badly written, for which I apologize. You may disregard it, for the aforementioned reasons.

Pity, I was genuinely interested in what you had to say...