NationStates Jolt Archive


Debates are a waste of time

Allanea
30-09-2004, 16:45
Why Bother Watching the Infomercials?
-- Watching the televised Presidential Debates is a
waste of time

by Jim Babka

It wasn't always this way, but in recent years the
highlights of the Presidential campaigns are the
infomercials.

And there's a big infomercial starting tonight - the
so-called Presidential Debates.

These aren't really "debates" in the tradition of
Lincoln-Douglas - or even Kennedy-Nixon. They're 90
minute television commercials for the presidential
campaigns - stage-managed, joint-appearances by the
front-running candidates.

The other major infomercials are the conventions.
Sure, some civically-minded folks complain that
network TV coverage-time has plummeted. But that's
because the conventions have lost their drama - and
their ratings.

* The last time Republicans had any suspense at
their convention was 1976 - Reagan v. Ford.
* The last time Democrats had any suspense at
their convention was 1980 - Kennedy v. Carter.

Major party conventions are now heavily scripted,
well-rehearsed, infomercials designed, not to choose
a nominee, but to promote the party's propaganda for
the Fall campaign.

Personally, I'd rather watch "Everybody Loves Raymond."

The nationally-televised Debates are no different.
They too are well-scripted. The two major candidates
choose the questioners, topics, and terms, including
detailed instructions about set design, where their
guy stands, etc.

This year Vernon Jordan represented Kerry. James
Baker represented Bush.

The two major party campaigns (not the media, not the
Debate Commission) emerge with a Memorandum of
Understanding, telling the Debate Commission just how
to put on their debates. This year's Memorandum
includes the following (standard) verbiage...

The parties agree that they will not (1) issue
any challenges for additional debates, (2) appear
at any other debates or adversarial forum with
any other presidential or vice presidential
candidate, or (3) accept any network air time
offers that involve a debate format or otherwise
involve the simultaneous appearance of more than
one candidate.

In other words, keep anything dramatic and
unpredictable, like minor party candidates, off the
stage.

If the Debates continue as they're presently
constituted, then I predict there will come a day
when one of the network presidents gets wise and
decides to do a highlight show, instead of cover the
whole thing live.

That network president will be pilloried by the
press. But he or she will get an edge in the ratings.

And the other networks will do likewise four years
later.

Why? Because the audience size is plummeting.
OpenDebates.org reports that viewership has declined
by 26.2 million Americans since 1992.

What was special about 1992? A third candidate (Ross
Perot) was on stage.

And those declining ratings are easy to explain.

Most Americans don't vote. More and more Americans
are figuring out that there's little substantial
difference between the major party candidates.

And to make matters worse, what the candidates say in
these debates doesn't matter, because betraying their
base once in office is hailed as "growing" in the
press.

* Conservatives voted for "no new taxes" but
George Bush the Elder signed a tax increase
anyway.
* Union members supported Clinton. They got
NAFTA.
* Bush opposed "nation-building" in the 2000
Debates, but nation-building is the largest
initiative of his presidency.

When there are only two candidates on stage, you can
bet that the viewpoints will narrow. The real debate
over issues will disappear, and in its place the
candidate's confidence, likeability, quick wit, and
other inconsequential matters will be spun and
analyzed for days following - that is unless there's
a big screw-up ("there is no Soviet domination of
Eastern Europe and there never will be under a Ford
administration") or a real zinger ("you're no John
Kennedy").

What won't be addressed?

DownsizeDC.org points out that several positions held
by a large plurality, if not an outright majority of
Americans will be excluded from the debates,
including...

1) Reducing the size of the federal government -
Downsizing DC.
2) Ending the occupation of Iraq promptly.
3) Repealing the Patriot Act.
4) Ending federal persecution of Medical Marijuana
patients.
5) Ending corporate welfare.

Perhaps you think there's a difference between these
candidates. The truth is they agree on far more than
they disagree.

Bush and Kerry agree that we need more government
involvement in health care, education, the
environment, and a stronger War on Terror.

And their biggest area of agreement is that they
don't want you to hear from the other four
candidates who've leapt the considerable ballot
access hurdles placed in the way of minor party
candidates.

This election - this "debate" - is about
personalities and who gets all the jobs the winning
party can deliver.

It's easy to understand why the outcome matters to
career Democrats and Republicans. But why should it
matter to you? Why should you watch these
infomercials if the issues you care about are not
being discussed?

Since a majority of Americans believe the federal
government is way too big, why should they bother
tuning in at all?
Kaziganthis
30-09-2004, 21:01
Why Personally, I'd rather watch "Everybody Loves Raymond."

Now That's saying something.

But, yes, I want an all out argument between these guys. The bigger third parties should, of course, debate with them. The parties should also debate with each other party one-on-one. Either to help people choose between two parties or to see how well their candidate defends himself.

But of course all that means diddly considering the poor state of politics in America.
Laskin Yahoos
01-10-2004, 08:09
I only watch the debates to strengthen my resolve to vote for Ralph Nader.
Gymoor
01-10-2004, 08:59
I think we're going to hear a lot of Bush supporters around here saying (in a whiney, Chimpy McFlightsuit*, being asked a tough question, kind of voice,) "Debates don't matter!"






* Chimpy McFlightsuit = Bush
Lunatic Goofballs
01-10-2004, 09:12
I didn't watch it. Why?

Because My good buddy, William "Bud" Shakespeare described it perfectly several hundred years ago; "A tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

Neither of them said anything we haven't heard (and dismissed as crap) time and time again.
HyperionCentauri
01-10-2004, 09:16
lol damn right debates are an advertising campain.. if you like their views you join them.. or join the argument as on this board.

i don't watch the ones you discribe i'm not american.. infact i don't watch anything!
The Imperial Navy
01-10-2004, 09:20
Bush-Useless.

Kerry-Senseless.

Politics-a complete waste of my time that could be better spent reading obituaries in the newspaper or arguing with traffic cops.
Orange state
01-10-2004, 09:23
I will be and am now a firm beliver that all parties should have equal funding, as part of the government budget. A small amount I add. It would mean paying for democracy, but its better than paying for power isnt it? ANd all the parties would have a look in.
Lunatic Goofballs
01-10-2004, 09:32
Do you know what would be a lot more interesting, entertaining and informative?

If the two of them fought on stage. A no rules brawl. And the winner fu*ked the loser right there on stage.

It would probably make my decision who to vote for much easier than a candy-coated debate would. :)
The Imperial Navy
01-10-2004, 09:40
i say we put them in a boxing ring-the truly strongest one would be president.

then we'd watch as kerry who has actually fought before, kick the shit out of Mr. AWOL Monkey nuts.

But with luck, terrorists would bomb the match and kill both the bastards.
Psylos
01-10-2004, 10:05
Yeah, what's the point?
It's not like either of them were going to switch side or reach a conclusion of any kind. They're just repeating again and again what their party stands for. Changing something is out of question because they are just paid to do what they are doing : entertaining us with useless politics. They're just clowns, but I'd say those two are not very entertaining.
Lunatic Goofballs
01-10-2004, 10:14
Yeah, what's the point?
It's not like either of them were going to switch side or reach a conclusion of any kind. They're just repeating again and again what their party stands for. Changing something is out of question because they are just paid to do what they are doing : entertaining us with useless politics. They're just clowns, but I'd say those two are not very entertaining.

I agree. Awful clowns. I feel qualified to judge. They suck as clowns.
Cannot think of a name
01-10-2004, 10:39
Yeah, what's the point?
It's not like either of them were going to switch side or reach a conclusion of any kind. They're just repeating again and again what their party stands for. Changing something is out of question because they are just paid to do what they are doing : entertaining us with useless politics. They're just clowns, but I'd say those two are not very entertaining.
To be fair, the idea was never to change thier minds, but ours.
Cannot think of a name
01-10-2004, 10:45
I will be and am now a firm beliver that all parties should have equal funding, as part of the government budget. A small amount I add. It would mean paying for democracy, but its better than paying for power isnt it? ANd all the parties would have a look in.
I'd be all for that. I don't know why we don't......oh yeah, the evil....

as far as the debates just being infomercials or such, well-okay, but the rest of it actually is commercial and the response is so spun out of control and muddled. At least here you get to see them post up thier 'adds' (to give the caveat of the assumption) right next to each other in their own words. All the cynicism that you can apply to what they say is only ampliphied outside of the debates, it doesn't go away.

So rally for debates with teeth, it's a noble cause. I think the British practice of making the Prime Minister answer questions every week is great. A leader should be able to defend his position, he should have to. But we use what we have. By not watching as much as you can (including the debates) you left with what someone else tells you was going on, and that carries all the problems listed through a prism.
Psylos
01-10-2004, 10:57
To be fair, the idea was never to change thier minds, but ours.
Indeed, but to call it a debate is ridiculous.
Indianajones
01-10-2004, 11:09
I agree that the debates are usually pointless and last night was a perfect example. Neither candidate said anything new and only brought up the main points from their campaign stops.

As far as substance I don't really see where either candidate "won" the debate. Same old, same old. However, when it came to presentation and image, I think Kerry gave a better appearance. So, if either guy had any type of edge, I would have to say it went slightly Kerry's way. (FYI - I'm a Bush supporter, but try to call 'em as I see 'em.)
BastardSword
01-10-2004, 12:34
I agree that the debates are usually pointless and last night was a perfect example. Neither candidate said anything new and only brought up the main points from their campaign stops.

As far as substance I don't really see where either candidate "won" the debate. Same old, same old. However, when it came to presentation and image, I think Kerry gave a better appearance. So, if either guy had any type of edge, I would have to say it went slightly Kerry's way. (FYI - I'm a Bush supporter, but try to call 'em as I see 'em.)
What do you mean neither said anything new?
Kerry explained many things he had not explained before.

Bush almost explained something important but he squirmed his way out.
Kerry asked, " How can we make nukes at same time we saying others can't."
That contrafiction Bush has not answered.

But yes in presenation and instyle and one who teaches debates or knows about public speaking would be angry at Bush.

Bush wouldn't stand up straight, He made faces, and kept saying, "Uh...um..." and using up time by saying nothing.

I thought Bush was a so-called great debater?
The Imperial Navy
01-10-2004, 12:50
I thought Bush was a so-called great debater?

I think he's more like a Mass-Debater. :)
Indianajones
01-10-2004, 13:36
[QUOTE=BastardSword]What do you mean neither said anything new?
QUOTE]

I have been following the campaigns pretty closely this year so I already heard most of what was said. The nukes comment may have been something new (although I have heard that argument thrown out before by others), but I hardly find it worth 90 minutes of viewing for the occasional new soundbite.

I expect a much better showing from GW at the next debate - Town Hall-style. It's a better forum for him to convey the "everyman" image that helped him in 2000. I expect Kerry to be a little stiff in the next one, losing some of the momentum he gained yesterday. That will put more emphasis on the final debate: a home run in that will give Kerry the White House, anything less and I think GW will be getting another term. Just my opinion though.