NationStates Jolt Archive

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

Well, technically you can't be Catholic and use contraceptives, either. I suppose it all depends where individual people make their own decisions on how far to swallow authoritarian diktat handed down from on high. Some might be happier following orders, some might have enough native wit to make up their own minds.

But if your truly firm in your beliefs then I dont see how anyone can support Kerry!

Hey, I'm a Republican, United Methodist and Bush supporter, but I don't believe attacking Kerry on the abortion question (in particular) is exactly fair. Kerry has stated he's personally against abortion, but feels the government has no business in that area. I tend to agree. Frankly, I don't like abortion and do believe having one amounts to a sin, but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to have a child if she doesn't want to raise it.

That decision, I think, is between the individual and God.

What is interesting from Kerry is his declaration that the separation of church and state precludes him from "inflicting" his religious views on citizens in his capacity as a government official. That's just a flat-out wrong interpretation of the doctrine (which, I realize, isn't well-defined to begin with). Separation of church and state precludes the government from settng up a state-sanctioned religion and forcing citizens to subscribe to it. It does not mean an individual can't be guided by religious beliefs when setting policy.

But if your truly firm in your beliefs then I dont see how anyone can support Kerry!

I suppose it depends what you believe. If you are big on the whole "take all your money and give it to the poor" stuff I personally don't see how you can vote for Bush.

There are people who call themselves "Catholic" who don't think that the Pope is the Pope: Mel Gibson, for one. Trying to rationalise religion is not going to get you anywhere, I'm afraid. Ask St Augustine of Hippo (there's probably a thread for this by now).

"but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to have a child if she doesn't want to raise it."

If she doesnt want to raise a kid then use protection or just dont dont have sex! Its not that hard! And if they cant do that then there is antother magiacal word. ADOPTION. Someone else will raise the kid! You dont have to kill it!

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

I'd already mentioned the abortion thing, but let's take a small look at the rest of those. I don't see any problem with being opposed to gay marriage, particularly when you consider laws are in place denying marriage in cases of bigamy and incest. In other words, if we find it violates the rights of a homosexual couple to allow them to get married, what about the rights of a couple of first cousins wanting to get married? Why shouldn't a man or woman have more than one spouse?

I have no problem with voluntary prayer, either, but I think it's more important to give my children a religious foundation at home. That includes such values as realizing it's God's place to judge, loving thy neighbor, mercy, charity and etc.

Bush can ask for God's blessing all he wants, as can any politician. If the voters don't like it, that's what the ballot box is for.

Oh and btw. I am Republican and United Methodist also. And a big time Bush supporter! Obviously :)

Hey, I'm a Republican, United Methodist and Bush supporter, but I don't believe attacking Kerry on the abortion question (in particular) is exactly fair. Kerry has stated he's personally against abortion, but feels the government has no business in that area. I tend to agree. Frankly, I don't like abortion and do believe having one amounts to a sin, but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to
have a child if she doesn't want to raise it.

I don't buy that "personally opposed but" routine. It's like saying, "I'm personally opposed to robbery but it's OK for my neighbor to rob the local bank".

What is interesting from Kerry is his declaration that the separation of church and state precludes him from "inflicting" his religious views on citizens in his capacity as a government official. That's just a flat-out wrong interpretation of the doctrine (which, I realize, isn't well-defined to begin with). Separation of church and state precludes the government from settng up a state-sanctioned religion and forcing citizens to subscribe to it. It does not mean an individual can't be guided by religious beliefs when setting policy.

Totally agree. If one's beliefs are not going to bear on one's public actions then how meaningful are they?

"but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to have a child if she doesn't want to raise it."

If she doesnt want to raise a kid then use protection or just dont dont have sex! Its not that hard! And if they cant do that then there is antother magiacal word. ADOPTION. Someone else will raise the kid! You dont have to kill it!

Again, where do we get the right to make that decision? I've already stated I'm against abortion on an individual level, so I agree with you, partway at least. However, we can't magically make people behave or do the right thing, no matter how many laws we pass.

I agree with you there creepsville but at least with Bush as president you know there will be alot less of abortions happening.

Oh and btw. I am Republican and United Methodist also. And a big time Bush supporter! Obviously :)

I'm not a big-time Bush supporter, but I like him a heck of a lot better than Kerry. Oh, and another thing -- I was raised Southern Baptist, but switched over to the Methodists after learning one thing. Methodists can bicker, argue and discuss things, but at the end of the day tend to agree to disagree. Never saw that in a Baptist church.

But if your truly firm in your beliefs then I dont see how anyone can support Kerry!

Separation of Church & State. Kerry may personally as a human be pro-life. However politically he may be pro-choice. That is how you can still support Kerry. It's not like voting for Bush is going to change a woman's right to choose. By your logic since Bush hasn't banned all forms of abortion since he's been in office then how can you vote for him either?

But if your truly firm in your beliefs then I dont see how anyone can support Kerry!

I don't see anywhere in catholic teaching that it says "use legal means to prevent non-catholics using contraception, having abortions or getting remarried after divorce". When did the Pope say "Gay marriage is not catholic, therefore catholics should do all they can to stop two clearly non-catholic women from doing something that as far as they are concerned is marriage. Not as far as we are concerned, because to catholics only catholic marriage is marriage."

I think catholics gave up the stuff about forcing other people to go along with catholic beliefs after the crusades, or maybe it was when the Pope apologised for imprisoning galileo.

Anyway, I think that you can be a catholic and not believe that you have to force people to do as you say, so you can be a catholic and pro-choice.

[QUOTE=Christus Victor]I don't buy that "personally opposed but" routine. It's like saying, "I'm personally opposed to robbery but it's OK for my neighbor to rob the local bank".

Well, let me a bit more clear -- both Kerry and I are wishy-washy on the abortion issue. I'll admit that, straight up. That's a complex one to wrestle with, after all. I think I've seen far too many "unwanted" kids fall through the cracks in my line of work. A kid that's raised in an atmosphere of resentment and hostility will often grow up to be no good for anything. Kids need to be in a loving home, and you're not going to get that in an environment in which the mother didn't want the child in the first place.

I agree, too, that adoption is an option.

But, agreeing with it and setting it as public policy are two different matters entirely.

I agree with you there creepsville but at least with Bush as president you know there will be alot less of abortions happening.

Not if he keeps on backing well-intentioned but doomed and demonstrably useless faith-based initiatives like the Silver Ring Thing, instead of well-resourced and coherent sex-education programmes.

I agree with you there creepsville but at least with Bush as president you know there will be alot less of abortions happening.

And a lot more executions.

alright, couple of things i should mention here. first of all, i'm not voting in this election. niether candidate strikes me as best suited to run our counrty. second in all those speaches that Bush mentioned God, thats his choice, but he also has claimed that he was told by God to go after Sadam and such. Third, i am christian, but i still believe that abortions are alright in cirtain circumstances.
anyways, theres my 2 cents. do with it what you will.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04
Your perception of what is Catholic is a little weird, don't you think? And since when is faith a matter in politics?

I don't see anywhere in catholic teaching that it says "use legal means to prevent non-catholics using contraception, having abortions or getting remarried after divorce". When did the Pope say "Gay marriage is not catholic, therefore catholics should do all they can to stop two clearly non-catholic women from doing something that as far as they are concerned is marriage. Not as far as we are concerned, because to catholics only catholic marriage is marriage."

I think catholics gave up the stuff about forcing other people to go along with catholic beliefs after the crusades, or maybe it was when the Pope apologised for imprisoning galileo.

Anyway, I think that you can be a catholic and not believe that you have to force people to do as you say, so you can be a catholic and pro-choice.

Well said. Catholic doctrine applies to catholics only; if you believe that following those holy laws will get you into heaven, then by all means, follow them. What I don't understand is why catholics want others to follow them as well. If you think we're going to burn in hell, then let us burn. Leave the rest of America alone.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong....Kerry has said he favors civil unions, not marraige.

Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong....Kerry said the gov't should stay out of it. I agree with him.

As much as I dislike Kerry (extremely) I do agree with him on a few things.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong....Kerry has said he favors civil unions, not marraige.

Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong....Kerry said the gov't should stay out of it. I agree with him.

As much as I dislike Kerry (extremely) I do agree with him on a few things.

*Drops dead in shock* :D

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!


Obviously you seem to think conservative fundamental Christianity is the only way to be religious. I'll forgive you this time. However, the world is full of varieties of religions and religious beliefs .... tens of thousands of them.

They won't all fit into your black and white world.

Once again, my Muslim faith is being attacked. To arms! To arms!

Anyway, is there any problem with slighy modifiers on my religous beliefs? I still believe in one God. I still believe Jesus is a prophet. I still believe Mohhammad is the final prophet.

Your saying that if I don't think Bush, a Christian, is the right choice as President because he supports banning things that Muslims would support banning...that I'm NOT a Muslim?

Well what's the alternative? Being an atheist? Much as I don't have a problem with atheists, HELL NO!

Mind butting out of what I believe in and believe your own sorry little misinterpertations of the world?

I forgot to grab who mentioned it, but I'm in complete agreement with the person who said that just because Catholics are opposed to abortions, etc, doesn't mean they have a right to force other non-catholics to do the same. I think that that was one of the main points of seperation of church and state; the government has no right to enforce or create laws for a nation of different beliefs, based on the religious doctrine of few. (Though yes, many people are catholic, it is not the dominant religion in the US).

The big tangle with the abortion issue with the government, in regards to making laws forbidding it, is making a stand on whether or not it can be considered the murder of a sentient, viable human being. And then you get into the mess of what trimester it is, how old the fetus is, how developed, etc. Of course, I know there are many of you who argue that conception is the start of life, but that's really neither here nor there, depending on your beliefs. Until the government can finalize a decision on when life begins, I think (and agree with Kerry), that lies with the woman in question and her beliefs.

Personally, I think religion has no place in dictating what everyone must do, especially we unbelievers. Adoption is all well and good and humanitarian in some cases where abortion would be extremely dangerous to the mother's health, but speaking from personal experience, I would much rather spend a couple hundred bucks to abort something that I didn't want, than spend much more on carrying the child to term, going through the painful process of childbirth, then post-birth depression, so on and so forth. It is so not worth the emotional, physical, and financial pain that it would cause me to add yet another mouth to feed in an already overpopulated world.

I have to wonder why being anti-abortion is enough to qualify Bush as a good candidate. Surely a voter needs to consider more than that.

Besides, religion tells people how to behave, not how to force others to behave.

Catholics are opposed to abortions? Says who? The official position of the Vatican is not necessarily the position of all Catholics.

"Says who"? I'm talking about the Catholic doctrine, not all people who are catholic. I give you more credit than that :)

But isn't the official position of the Vatican supposed to be held as "word of God" by all catholics? Tradtionally speaking, I mean. (No reply is really needed, I'm sort of being facecious).

You can't be a Christian and agree with any government whatsoever. All govt rests on violence to enforce its laws and raise its taxes (police with guns, jail sentences etc). Since Jesus was against violence it follows that Christianity is, if taken consistently, a form of Anarchism.

*Drops dead in shock* :D

Yeah....I thought you might like that...but I actually do agree with him on a few things, but those i disagree with him on far outweigh those.

There are some wonderful threads out there involving Catholicism, Canon Law, Church Policy etc.

Unfortunately, I don't have the links to them handy. All I can give is my personal opinions. I feel that abortion is wrong, not necessarily because the Church say so, but because I feel that starting and ending a complex living creature (even if you don't want to call it a Human, it is still a living multicellular organism with a different DNA code than the mother) out of coincidence is wrong. However, in cases such as rape, incest, danger to the mother, etc. it may be permissible to sacrifice an innocent life.

In my opinion, whichever candidate (hopefully President Bush) is elected needs to take down Roe v. Wade, and replace it with a more moderate law that the American people will be able to agree on. (It would be too much to ask for an outlawing of abortion.)

As for marriage between homosexuals, I don't think it right for the government to deny two people essential rights. The family structure in the U.S. and abroad is crumbling, and if two people are willing to obey their marriage vows and raise children, then let them.

A real in-depth study is needed to find out more about homosexuality, and what its causes are. Only then can anything else be decided.

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!
Who the fuck gives you the right to rate people on how well they believe or not? You think you're some kind of judge for everybody?

I'm as conservative, Christian, and republican as they come. But don't tell me that I can't vote for whoever I want because I'm a Christian. This country is all about freedom of choice.

I'm sick and tired of people telling me how I should think and act because I'm a Christian. Just because I don't agree with your politics and I don't believe what you do doesn't mean I should, or that I'm on a lower level of Christianity because of it. Don't force your beliefs on me, even if it's just with some stupid post in a forum.

You can't be a Christian and agree with any government whatsoever. All govt rests on violence to enforce its laws and raise its taxes (police with guns, jail sentences etc). Since Jesus was against violence it follows that Christianity is, if taken consistently, a form of Anarchism.

Sorry, couldn't let that one go by. Jesus being against violence is like Donald Trump being against money. That's a statement just loaded with ignorance. Jesus personally threw the moneylenders out of the temple, very violently I might add, and when he sent out his disciples the first time into the towns, he specifically told them to buy a sword and keep it on them at all times. Non-violent? Yeah, right. And Christianity is not anarchism, Christianity is the foundation of our system of government.

jW

Who the fuck gives you the right to rate people on how well they believe or not? You think you're some kind of judge for everybody?

I'm as conservative, Christian, and republican as they come. But don't tell me that I can't vote for whoever I want because I'm a Christian. This country is all about freedom of choice.

I'm sick and tired of people telling me how I should think and act because I'm a Christian. Just because I don't agree with your politics and I don't believe what you do doesn't mean I should, or that I'm on a lower level of Christianity because of it. Don't force your beliefs on me, even if it's just with some stupid post in a forum.

i'm farily liberal, christian, and incredibly democratic. but this is one thing we can definitely agree on. preach on. :)

Sorry, couldn't let that one go by. Jesus being against violence is like Donald Trump being against money. That's a statement just loaded with ignorance. Jesus personally threw the moneylenders out of the temple, very violently I might add, and when he sent out his disciples the first time into the towns, he specifically told them to buy a sword and keep it on them at all times. Non-violent? Yeah, right. And Christianity is not anarchism, Christianity is the foundation of our system of government.

jW
I don't care, I'm not a Christian. But the whole essence of Christianity is non-violence. That's why he allowed himself to be crucified, that's why he said "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword", that's why he preached love and forgiveness, that's why the early Christians allowed themselves to be martyred. The vast majority of the gospels are about non-violence. If there are a few contradictory passages that only goes to show what rubbish it is.

OK so catholicism is your game. That is fine, but maybe you should judge your religion before you start judging someone else; in other words, cast not the first stone. The catholic ineffible head of the church-the Pope- speaks for god right. Well then, does that mean that when slavery was legal god did not have a problem with it? The Pope kept silent-THANK YOU HOLY MOTHER CHURCH. Awesome...first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.
Oh and for Emerica Bush in office will not lead to less abortions. What it will lead to is many more women dying due to abortions because they had to use a coat hanger in a back alley. Thanks for your Christian compassion assholes.

OK, here is my flameworthy two bits.

The Pope has said that you must take all the candidate's views into account when deciding who to vote for. Abortion cannot be your only criteria. He has attacked Bush, personally for some of his other actions/decisions. There is the Catholic arguement.

Here is the second bit: No one who runs for national office will fit all 10 Commandments. Bush is pro death penalty and Kerry has personally killed people (in Nam). Bush is agsint gun control, Kerry for it. You can't get into the "you aren't religious if you vote for X" arguement. You just have to let your own morals and diety(s) guide your actions. Choose the best candidate on ALL the issues, don't pick one or two. Whoever is elected will have a lot of influence over more than just the religious based decisions. Being President is a nightmare, if you really think about it. Every day, your beliefs are questioned and tested. Every day, you mush take a hard look at your morals and wonder how much they will have to bend.

Footnote: I was raised in a very religious (Baptist) home, married a Catholic, am rasing two Catholic children. I'm voting on the issues, not religion. That is why I think the Founding Fathers seperated Church and State. It keeps our leaders sane.

OK, Fire away! :mp5: :sniper:

I'm not and have never been very impressed with Bush; however, you hit the nail on the head with this one. At least Bush is pro-family value oriented, and as a Christian, Bush may unfortunately be the only logical choice for this one, unless enough people could maybe write in a candidate, like Clint Eastwood, as President. Now THERE is a man who could really get Iraq et terroist to make his day!

I find it kinda worrying to think that a lot of ppl in USA are going to base their vote solely on the state of the candidate's religious fevour, and not on more relevant and pertinent issues like the war in Iraq, the hunt for Osama, terrorism, jobs, the economy, oil, the deficit...
Do none of these things matter to you ppl? All you're concerned with is whether he supports gay marriage or not? Is that going to really have a noticeable effect on your life and/or lifestyle?

Who the fuck gives you the right to rate people on how well they believe or not? You think you're some kind of judge for everybody?

I'm as conservative, Christian, and republican as they come. But don't tell me that I can't vote for whoever I want because I'm a Christian. This country is all about freedom of choice.

I'm sick and tired of people telling me how I should think and act because I'm a Christian. Just because I don't agree with your politics and I don't believe what you do doesn't mean I should, or that I'm on a lower level of Christianity because of it. Don't force your beliefs on me, even if it's just with some stupid post in a forum.

Well said.

Since I have a few prejudices about Christian Conservative Repbulicans, it means something that I said that.....

I find it kinda worrying to think that a lot of ppl in USA are going to base their vote solely on the state of the candidate's religious fevour, and not on more relevant and pertinent issues like the war in Iraq, the hunt for Osama, terrorism, jobs, the economy, oil, the deficit...
Do none of these things matter to you ppl? All you're concerned with is whether he supports gay marriage or not? Is that going to really have a noticeable effect on your life and/or lifestyle?

There are a bunch of them and they get annoying but there are many of us that believe Religion is your own business and tend to follow the seperation of chruch and state principle. So we are not a theocracy yet.....

"but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to have a child if she doesn't want to raise it."

If she doesnt want to raise a kid then use protection or just dont dont have sex! Its not that hard! And if they cant do that then there is antother magiacal word. ADOPTION. Someone else will raise the kid! You dont have to kill it!

What about cases in which the woman is raped?

i couldn't disagree more. i support john kerry, not completely, but he gets my vote. and i am christian, and i am very loyal to my faith.
you see, you can't just a candidate on only four issues. there are many, many more than those. how about the war in iraq? no christian can say that they support the slaughter of innocent citizens. just as no christian could have supported september 11th, but iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. i support banning land mines, bush does not and kerry does. i do not support immediate building of a new missile defense system, but does and kerry wans to wait. i'd rather use diplomacy, aka the UN, to handle the war in iraq, as would kerry. i also support the increase of a welfare system, which is essentially a role described continuously throughout the bible: take from the rich and give to the poor. kerry supports this, bush does not.
it is true that i do not favor abortion or gay marriage. but i live in massachusetts and state legislation chose to allow gay marriage. they chose it despite the fact that we have a republican governor. as of now, marriage is a STATE decision, and my state has chosen to allow gay marriage. if a person is to think that by re-electing george bush, that is going to be eliminated, they are wrong. the bill would have to pass through congress first, and it won't. i am pro-life but, again, a pro-life act would have an extremely difficult time moving through the democratic congress.
so before you trash kerry, look at what else he favors. just because you elect a president doesn't mean that things will go your way. bush has proved that he can't stop pro-choice acts and gay marriage. bush has also proved that he can't handle the war in iraq, that he didn't know what he was getting the american citizens into, and that he is willing to risk our soldiers' lives for his cause, not this country's.

"but don't believe it's my business -- or anyone else's -- to force a woman to have a child if she doesn't want to raise it."

If she doesnt want to raise a kid then use protection or just dont dont have sex! Its not that hard! And if they cant do that then there is antother magiacal word. ADOPTION. Someone else will raise the kid! You dont have to kill it!


Protection doesnt always work, and abstinance is a good idea, but some people think they can manage a family, and want to start one, but bad things can happen overshort periods of time. And as for adoption, do you have any, any idea what a traumatic effect this can have on the parent and, if he/she finds out, the child? Its really not as simple as giving a child to some nice people. YOu give it to an underfunded orphanage, then chldren are paraded like on a catwalk once a month to prospective parents, and that, i can tell you, is not fun one bit. Also, i distinguish between a child and a foetus.

"first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU."

That is funny! You obviously know nothing about the Christian faith. Jesus too was agaisnt homosexuality. As stated in the Bible. Marriage is a union of man and woman! NOT man and man or woman and woman! Get the facts straight asshole! And as also stated in the Bible, any unholy union (man and man or woman and woman) is flith in the eyes of the Lord and shall be condemned! And second, who the hell mentioned anything about african americans? NO ONE in this thread! So dont try starting some new shit just to turn it around! So if you are gay or support gay marriage then "JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!!"

"What about cases in which the woman is raped?"

Did you not pay attention to what I posted? ADOPTION! No need to kill the baby! If you dont want it then put it up for adoption, or simply control your damn hormones or use protection. ITS NOT HARD!

"first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU."

That is funny! You obviously know nothing about the Christian faith. Jesus too was agaisnt homosexuality. As stated in the Bible. Marriage is a union of man and woman! NOT man and man or woman and woman! Get the facts straight asshole! And as also stated in the Bible, any unholy union (man and man or woman and woman) is flith in the eyes of the Lord and shall be condemned! And second, who the hell mentioned anything about african americans? NO ONE in this thread! So dont try starting some new shit just to turn it around! So if you are gay or support gay marriage then "JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!!"

Jesus never mentions homosexuality ever ever ever. It also states in the bible that it is ok to own slaves and that it is wicked to cut your hair.

Awesome...first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU.

Wow! Overlook the religious arguments against slavery, did you? How about Martin Luther King relying on his faith to justify equality for African-Americans? When did Christians say homosexuals aren't people? Oh, that's right. They said they ought not get married. Big difference. I suppose folks who engage in incest and bigamy aren't people, either, under that criteria.

BULL SHIT HE NEVER MENTIONS HOMESEXUALITY! Why dont you read the Bible! Its stated plenty of times! So dont fucking tell me he never mentioned it! According to the Bible and the Christian faith being gay and having gay marriage is WRONG! If you dont believe me then walk down to your nearest Christian church and ask around, they'll tell you the same thing!

A real in-depth study is needed to find out more about homosexuality, and what its causes are. Only then can anything else be decided.

:eek:

So we can do what? Find a cure?

"What about cases in which the woman is raped?"

Did you not pay attention to what I posted? ADOPTION! No need to kill the baby! If you dont want it then put it up for adoption, or simply control your damn hormones or use protection. ITS NOT HARD!

Oh, sure. It's easy to wander around for 9 months with the seed of the man who raped you swelling inside, before going through hours of labour and then giving away the child and never seeing it again. A mere bagatelle.

BULL SHIT HE NEVER MENTIONS HOMESEXUALITY! Why dont you read the Bible! Its stated plenty of times! So dont fucking tell me he never mentioned it! According to the Bible and the Christian faith being gay and having gay marriage is WRONG! If you dont believe me then walk down to your nearest Christian church and ask around, they'll tell you the same thing!

Please give me the references in the bible, ie book, chapter and verse, where Jesus mentions homosexuality. I've read the Gospels several times and I can't find anywhere where Jesus mentions homosexuality.

BULL SHIT HE NEVER MENTIONS HOMESEXUALITY! Why dont you read the Bible! Its stated plenty of times! So dont fucking tell me he never mentioned it! According to the Bible and the Christian faith being gay and having gay marriage is WRONG! If you dont believe me then walk down to your nearest Christian church and ask around, they'll tell you the same thing!

Jesus never mentions homosexuality. Other parts of the Bible do. Then again, other parts of the Bible mention not wearing clothes of mixed fibres, prohibit the eating of shellfish, and state that an unborn child is not equivalent to a human being, amongst others.

Oh, sure. It's easy to wander around for 9 months with the seed of the man who raped you swelling inside, before going through hours of labour and then giving away the child and never seeing it again. A mere bagatelle.

Even if it isn't easy, it's nevertheless possible.

... parts of the Bible ... state that an unborn child is not equivalent to a human being, amongst others.

Reference please?

Even if it isn't easy, it's nevertheless possible.

It may be possible -- but it's not your decision, or mine, to make.

The bulk of references to homosexuality in the Bible can be attributed to the Old Testament and the "books" (yeah, I know they were originally letters) written by Paul.

Are you claiming the fact Jesus was never quoted as railing against homosexuality trumps the refereneces in the Bible which do condemn the practice?

Reference please?

Exodus 21: 22-25:
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

So: if a man causes a woman to miscarry, but doesn't harm the mother, then he is punished according to the wishes of the woman's husband, and is fined. But if the woman suffers ill effects afterwards, up to and including death, then the perpetrator will suffer the same fate as her. It's quite clear from this that the laws as described in Exodus do not give the life of an unborn child the same status as the life of the mother.

"What about cases in which the woman is raped?"

Did you not pay attention to what I posted? ADOPTION! No need to kill the baby! If you dont want it then put it up for adoption, or simply control your damn hormones or use protection. ITS NOT HARD!
Sorry, could you run that past me again? "control your damn hormones or use protection" for a woman who is raped?
So it's her fault is it? Her damn hormones cause her to be raped? How? Why not just come out and say she deserved it dressing like a slut?
Protection? Oh sure...she should ask the rapist to put on a condom before he rapes her. :rolleyes:
(Actually if "ITS NOT HARD!" there wouldn't be the problem of unwanted pregnancy! :) )
Anyway, I was under the impression that the Church was against the use of contraceptives.

All of these are taken from the New International Version (NIV)

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13

Romans 1: 24-27

1 Corinthians 6:9

1 Timothy 1: 9-10

I would also like to point out that someone said that most references against homosexuality is in the old testament. WRONG! I found only two in the old testament and three in the new. So they are everywhere in the Bilbe! Not just in the old testament.

BULL SHIT HE NEVER MENTIONS HOMESEXUALITY! Why dont you read the Bible! Its stated plenty of times! So dont fucking tell me he never mentioned it! According to the Bible and the Christian faith being gay and having gay marriage is WRONG! If you dont believe me then walk down to your nearest Christian church and ask around, they'll tell you the same thing!

Have you ever even read your new testament?




Nah, didn't think so.

All of these are taken from the New International Version (NIV)

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13

Romans 1: 24-27

1 Corinthians 6:9

1 Timothy 1: 9-10

I would also like to point out that someone said that most references against homosexuality is in the old testament. WRONG! I found only two in the old testament and three in the new. So they are everywhere in the Bilbe! Not just in the old testament.

None of those are attributable to Jesus Christ.

And for the record, 1 Timothy 1: 9-10 does not mention homosexuality at all. At least not in my version.

Go back to my last post on page 4. Read the references ( 3 of which are from the new testament) then try saying that again! You cant!

Go back to my last post on page 4. Read the references ( 3 of which are from the new testament) then try saying that again! You cant!

We don't all have our settings on the same number of posts per page. Tell us which posts you are referring to, by number. And who is this comment directed towards?

1 Timothy 1: 9-10 mentions perverts. Being gay is perverted. Thus the passage applies.

Are you claiming the fact Jesus was never quoted as railing against homosexuality trumps the refereneces in the Bible which do condemn the practice?

As a matter of fact, I'd go even farther: Jesus barely ever mentions sexuality as a whole at all. He just didn't seem to care much about what we did in the bedroom. The only passage I can recall where sexuality is mentionned, is when the priests at the temple want Jesus to condemn Mary Magdalene for adultery. Which is when he said "let he who has never sinned cast the first stone".

Jesus didn't care what happened in our sex lives. What he cared about was that we should love each other, not hurt our neighbours.

I guess that's the difference between a (true) Christian, in the sense of "follower of Christ", and a Catholic, who is a follower of the Catholic Church.

1 Timothy 1: 9-10 mentions perverts. Being gay is perverted. Thus the passage applies.

That gays are pervert is an assumption of yours. Unless you find a quote of Jesus saying "Gays are perverts" literally, I'll be disagreeing with you.

1 Timothy 1: 9-10 mentions perverts. Being gay is perverted. Thus the passage applies.

No, it does not. It does not mention homosexuality, so it does not apply. Pervert could refer to anything. Pedophilia, bestiality, etc. etc. It can not be attributed solely to homosexuality.

Ok, I did not know people had diff setting as to number of posts on the page. So here again are the references in the Bible against homosexuality. All these verses are NIV (New International Version)

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13

Romans 1: 24-27

1 Corinthians 6:9

1 Timothy 1: 9-10

And in the Christian faith, being gay is being perverted! Thats how 1 Timothy applies!

Technically, there are three references in the Old Testament:
Genesis 19: 5-8,
Leviticus 18: 22, and:
Leviticus 20: 13

I already asked this in another thread, but no-one answered, so I'll ask again:
Leviticus tells us that a man who lieth with a man, as he does with a woman is an abomination.
So if he restricts himself to various sexual acts with a man that he wouldn't (or couldn't) do with a woman, what's the prob? He's not lieth with the man as with the woman now is he? Vaginal intercourse is vastly different to anal intercourse. What if said hypothetical man was to do a standing circle jerk with several of his buddies - definitely something you can't do with a mixed crowd. That should be ok then, surely.
What of a same-sex relationship where there is no sex taking place? is that ok? No lieth-ing there!
Also nothing there about dykes, so I guess they're ok in the eyes of the Lord then. Certainly ok in my eyes, especially the ones you find on the 'net in 'those sites'.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04



Jesus would not like Bush. Jesus says to promote peace, Bush promotes war. Jesus accpeted those who were excluded, Bush excludes them. Jesus says you need to have child like innocence, while Bush is leaving the innocent behind. No, a true christian person would NEVER vote for someone who contradicts Christ so. Jesus never said that woman shouldn't be able to make choice in their lives and even defended one caugh in adultery (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) and he NEVER mentions that God says being gay is wrong. Paul does but it's not Paulianity, now is it?

Ok, I did not know people had diff setting as to number of posts on the page. So here again are the references in the Bible against homosexuality. All these verses are NIV (New International Version)

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13

Romans 1: 24-27

1 Corinthians 6:9

1 Timothy 1: 9-10

And, again, I say that none of those statements are attributed to Jesus. So your assertion that Jesus was against homosexuality has no foundation.

Jesus himself never said being gay was wrong, some of his followers did but not him.

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13

Romans 1: 24-27

1 Corinthians 6:9

1 Timothy 1: 9-10


You were asked where JESUS denounces homosexuality or puts constraints on what defines marriage. None of the above quotes were Jesus.

Quote Jesus or shut yer yap.

God supposedly hates sin, but loves the sinner, right? Okie dokie.

Jesus said "that which you do to the least of my brothers is that which you do to me".

Since you don't denounce homosexuality, but rather denounce homosexuals, you are, therefore, denouncing Jesus. Nicely done. Satan is proud of you.

Its the Bible for christs sake! The word of GOD! Jesus is the son of God! How can he be for it? He cant! God is against homosexuality and Jesus being the son of God and being the only living being to not sin must be against it too!

And in the Christian faith, being gay is being perverted! Thats how 1 Timothy applies!

That's your assumption, that 1 Timothy was referring to homosexuality. There is alot more than homosexuality that is considered perverted in the Christian faith. It isn't valid in our discussion because it does not mention homosexuality specifically. I accept the others but not 1 Timothy.

Its the Bible for christs sake! The word of GOD! Jesus is the son of God! How can he be for it? He cant! God is against homosexuality and Jesus being the son of God and being the only living being to not sin must be against it too!


Ummmm ... I never sin. I'm not against it. You are wrong.

Its the Bible for christs sake! The word of GOD! Jesus is the son of God! How can he be for it? He cant! God is against homosexuality and Jesus being the son of God and being the only living being to not sin must be against it too!

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

Its the Bible for christs sake! The word of GOD! Jesus is the son of God! How can he be for it? He cant! God is against homosexuality and Jesus being the son of God and being the only living being to not sin must be against it too!

So you've taken to speaking for Jesus now? Isn't that blasphemy?

Face it, it's your assumption that Jesus was against homosexuality. With no concrete proof he was against it, you cannot say for certain his stance on homosexuality.

"Ummmm ... I never sin. I'm not against it. You are wrong. "

BS! Everyone sins! Know it or not and like it or not! EVERYONE DOES! Jesus was the only living person to never sin. He was the ultimate sacrafice when he died on the cross.

"Ummmm ... I never sin. I'm not against it. You are wrong. "

BS! Everyone sins! Know it or not and like it or not! EVERYONE DOES! Jesus was the only living person to never sin. He was the ultimate sacrafice when he died on the cross.

According to Catholic dogma, he is correct.

Thank you Sdaeriji.

BS! Everyone sins! Know it or not and like it or not! EVERYONE DOES! Jesus was the only living person to never sin. He was the ultimate sacrafice when he died on the cross.

Depends on your definition, doesn't it?

There are only three sins in my religion:

1] Wasting a gift.
2] Hatred.
3] Being deliberately destructive.

I never sin.

But if your truly firm in your beliefs then I dont see how anyone can support Kerry!

Oo-er. My truly firm what?

Fix your grammar before you start spouting your narrow-minded shit, you little jerk.

What the hell kind of religion do you believe in? Thats a bunch of crap!

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait………………………….

He’s a Catholic?

*Hides behind grassy knoll*
:sniper:

According to Catholic dogma, he is correct.


Ah ... well ... not being a Catholic, those rules don't apply to me.

Oo-er. My truly firm what?

Fix your grammar before you start spouting your narrow-minded shit, you little jerk.


Look again asshole! there is nothing wrong with it. Your the one that screwed up! I never said my truly firm. It says "If your truly firm in your beliefs..."

Meaning if you truly trust and stand up for your beliefs. Try again "you little jerk"

"Ummmm ... I never sin. I'm not against it. You are wrong. "

BS! Everyone sins! Know it or not and like it or not! EVERYONE DOES! Jesus was the only living person to never sin. He was the ultimate sacrafice when he died on the cross.

Prove it.

Prove that I sin, or have sinned.

Ah ... well ... not being a Catholic, those rules don't apply to me.

Yeah, but I'm assuming he is, so according to his beliefs, he is correct.

He's still wrong about everything else, however.

What the hell kind of religion do you believe in? Thats a bunch of crap!


The religion of my fathers. I am a Smokedancer, a Pagan, a Native American. Our way was around before yours and will be long after yours is a dust filled memory.

Perhaps you'd like me to break one of your very own commandments and dishonor my father by converting to your hateful, murderous way?

(late joiner in the discussion)

1 - It's not only acceptable, but imperritive that a political leader seperate their political views from their religious views (re. abortion)

2 - How can ANYONE vote for bush... especially a religious voter... after all the stupidity in Iraq. Needlessly killing thousands of people without cause.

Look again asshole! there is nothing wrong with it. Your the one that screwed up! I never said my truly firm. It says "If your truly firm in your beliefs..."

Meaning if you truly trust and stand up for your beliefs. Try again "you little jerk"

He was critiquing your grammar. When you said "if your truly firm" you should have said "if you're truly firm". The latter is what you were trying to say, "you are". The former implies possessive, as in "Your truly firm buttocks". Get it?

He's just one of those people who has nothing to add to an argument, so they instead criticize people's grammar and spelling.

And I'd recommend against flaming people.

Now I know that many of you Christians want the world to end really soon so you don't really care about the environment and going on a crusade against the "towel heads" appeals to your sense of faith but why is the economy so irrelevent to your understanding of this election. You do realize that Bush's policies primarilly benefit the wealthiest members of society, and not you. Besides the presidents ties to major corporations are distubing in the way that he supports their interests rather then the American peoples.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

Obviously you can be both retarded and catholic.
Kerry has never voiced his opinion on gay marriage or prayer in school. And yes, attacking Bush on using God to much (if he ever did, which I don't recall but considering you've already mis-quoted 2 of 3, I would highly doubt) is the right thing to do. Hiding behind God is exactly what Hitler did. Hiding your views behind a blanket of religion preys on people's faith and disguises the truth. So yes, it's wrong.

I don't see any "execuse", as you so put it, for any intelligent person to vote for Bush. Plus, it wouldn't be an excuse, it would be a reason.

Personally, a religious zealot, like Bush, shouldn't be promoting the bombing of guilty people at the expense of the innocent. Nor should they condone torture of individuals not accused of a crime. Hello! Jesus anyone?

Tell you what, you religious wacko. WWJD? Would he go on a bombing rampage of the middle east? Would he hold individuals against their will and torture them for information based solely on speculation? Would he criticize another invidual's history; while at the same time having snorted coke and hit heavy booz in his own life and DIDN'T SOBER UP TIL HE WAS 40!!!???

I'm glad you're a catholic retard. Just makes me all that more certain that Catholicism is a bunch of hogwash.

The religion of my fathers. I am a Smokedancer, a Pagan, a Native American. Our way was around before yours and will be long after yours is a dust filled memory.

Perhaps you'd like me to break one of your very own commandments and dishonor my father by converting to your hateful, murderous way?

Mega Burn.

And in the Christian faith, being gay is being perverted! Thats how 1 Timothy applies!
The usual wording of Timothy 1:10 is:
"The unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,"
Sodomites is sometimes used instead.

Well in the original (or as near original as it can be) text of Timothy 1:9-10, it uses the words "pornoi, arsenokoitai, andrapodistai" in that order when describing the act. These are the same words used in Paul's letter to the Corinthians 6:9. Scholarly study of these words has generally agreed the following:
Pornoi: means 'male prostitutes (i.e. rent boys)', NOT homosexuals per se.
Arsenokoitai: is a word apparently made up by Paul to describe a promiscuous male ('Arsen' means 'male', 'Koites' means 'licentious sexual activities'). This could in fact describe any slutty man, regardless if they're pussy-fiend or arse-bandit.
Andrapodistai means kidnapper or slave dealer.
So together we don't have the term homosexual. Instead we have: "Rent boys, those who use them and the slave dealers who procure them"
This excerpt from the Bible is more likely to be outlawing the practise of kidnapping young boys to use for sexual gratification by paying men than homosexuality between two consenting males.
In other words Timothy 1:10 does not say anything about homosexuality.

Well sorry my grammer isnt preppy perfect. And who flamed first? People started swearing and calling me names first. I just shot back! Well I have to be going now anyways. Off to work.

Well sorry my grammer isnt preppy perfect. And who flamed first? People started swearing and calling me names first. I just shot back! Well I have to be going now anyways. Off to work.

It doesn't matter that he started. Don't reciprocate, or you'll get warned, banned, deleted.

So: if a man causes a woman to miscarry, but doesn't harm the mother, then he is punished according to the wishes of the woman's husband, and is fined. But if the woman suffers ill effects afterwards, up to and including death, then the perpetrator will suffer the same fate as her. It's quite clear from this that the laws as described in Exodus do not give the life of an unborn child the same status as the life of the mother.


Thanks, I never saw this before.

Mega Burn.

Takes a short bow.

I also forgot to mention that our way has survived regardless of the deliberate attempt at destruction ... guess their God may not be as strong as they'd like to believe? *shrug*

I would encourage you all to check out :
http://www.400monkeys.com/God/index.html

not sure if someone said this yet (I don't feel like reading three pages), but Kerry only supports civil unions. he does not support gay marriages, so in no way is he messing with any religious institution.

also, just because something is a sin (or at least you think it is) does not mean the government has to outlaw it- it's a personal decision and you can't force your religion on people. if the government outlawed taking the lord's name in vain I'd be serving a life sentence.

We all need to keep in mind that Kerry isn't a traditional Catholic. He is a member of a "Catholic" sect called the Paulists. They don't follow many of the teachings of the Church or the Pope. The Roman Catholic Church doesn't acknowledge this sect of "Catholicism." Paulists identify as and call themselves part of the Church but they don't follow Catholic teachings. By the way, I'm not some crazy Bush follower but I am an orthodox Catholic(in other words, I attempt to follow the teachings of the Roman Church and the Pope) and I'm very familiar with this group. I just wanted to clear up the confusion.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04
if ONLY Kerry were the non-religious choice. i would be leaping up an down with joy if there were ANY non-religious candidate, but Kerry is an observant Catholic. he's also a hypocrite about many points of his faith, i suppose, but since when is that unusual in a religious person?

Well sorry my grammer isnt preppy perfect. And who flamed first? People started swearing and calling me names first. I just shot back! Well I have to be going now anyways. Off to work.

Where do you work? Are you a professor in Religious History for the Mentally Retarded?

Why does religion even matter? Not everyone is your religion, and multiple religions are allowed, so why should any of the politicians cater to just your religion? Not only are you showing ignorance by insulting other people's religion as well, you are just assuming that all of us are bible-thumpers too.

And I can be religious and still vote for Kerry, according to you, since only Catholics matter anyway.

not to mention that Bush isn't exactly a faithful Christian himself...just check out how he would attack a more Christian candidate:

http://www.dailykos.com/images/user/3/jesusbush.jpg

I am an Atheist and a democrat, and I don't care about all this nonesense having to do with Christianty and voting. Seperation of church and state. People came to this country to get away from people that tried to rule their lives according to religion.
I think Bush is a completly moron and he has no business running this country. If he wins I will be incredibly dissapointed in the U.S.

Why does religion even matter? Not everyone is your religion, and multiple religions are allowed, so why should any of the politicians cater to just your religion? Not only are you showing ignorance by insulting other people's religion as well, you are just assuming that all of us are bible-thumpers too.

And I can be religious and still vote for Kerry, according to you, since only Catholics matter anyway.
lol, good point: for a strongly religious Jew, the fact that Bush is a vocal Christian isn't much of a point in his favor. of course, the thread founder is yet another example of someone who thinks "religious" means "believing in Jesus."

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

This is easy... he can BE Catholic for himself and STILL decide that isn't what's best for everyone else in the country. He is aware enough of his surroundings to know that not everyone is Catholic or believes the same way a Catholic believes.

What's more, I am a little more than offended at the title of your thread. "For anyone who is religious..." It's sad that you think Catholicism and Christianity are the only options out there that qualify as religions. I think I understand how you've managed to be blinded by the blizzard of spin from the Bush/Cheney campaign.

Republicans for Voldemort!

"first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU."

That is funny! You obviously know nothing about the Christian faith. Jesus too was agaisnt homosexuality. As stated in the Bible. Marriage is a union of man and woman! NOT man and man or woman and woman! Get the facts straight asshole! And as also stated in the Bible, any unholy union (man and man or woman and woman) is flith in the eyes of the Lord and shall be condemned! And second, who the hell mentioned anything about african americans? NO ONE in this thread! So dont try starting some new shit just to turn it around! So if you are gay or support gay marriage then "JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!!"

Marriage is the union of a man and a woman.... except where it is the union of a dead person and several million people.

Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready".

but Kerry is an observant Catholic. he's also a hypocrite about many points of his faith, i suppose, but since when is that unusual in a religious person?

Did you read my post a few minutes ago? His sect is not acknowledged by the Pope or the Church so I wouldn't exactly say he's really a hypocrite religiously speaking.

I am an Atheist and a democrat, and I don't care about all this nonesense having to do with Christianty and voting. Seperation of church and state. People came to this country to get away from people that tried to rule their lives according to religion.
I think Bush is a completly moron and he has no business running this country. If he wins I will be incredibly dissapointed in the U.S.

And I'll really start considering moving to Canada (or Switzerland). Anyone know someone in Canada or Switzerland who're willing to take me and my hubby in while I look for a teaching job?

I'm considering moving to Europe as well because I think America's entire political system is corrupt on both sides. I really hate our government. :mad:

Did you read my post a few minutes ago? His sect is not acknowledged by the Pope or the Church so I wouldn't exactly say he's really a hypocrite religiously speaking.
no, i mean that he is a hypocrite for claiming to be Catholic and then not observing the tennets of the Catholic faith. people seem to think they can pick and choose what bits of a religion they feel like following, and then declare that they are dutiful members of that religion...that's pure bunk, in my opinion. if i want to be a PhD i have to take ALL the required courses and obtain ALL the qualifications; i can't just pick the things i like about PhD studies and ignore the bits i don't like. if you want to call yourself a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jew, a Muslim, or whatever the hell religion then that's your business, but if you don't follow ALL the rules of that religion then you are a liar every time you claim to be an adherant of that faith.

I'm considering moving to Europe as well because I think America's entire political system is corrupt on both sides. I really hate our government. :mad:

I shall join you in this migration! Someone phone England....the Mayflower is coming home!!

(oh, and England is cool, because more than 70% oppose Tony Blair, and he will be removed in May of next year)

no, i mean that he is a hypocrite for claiming to be Catholic and then not observing the tennets of the Catholic faith. people seem to think they can pick and choose what bits of a religion they feel like following, and then declare that they are dutiful members of that religion...that's pure bunk, in my opinion. if i want to be a PhD i have to take ALL the required courses and obtain ALL the qualifications; i can't just pick the things i like about PhD studies and ignore the bits i don't like. if you want to call yourself a Catholic, a Baptist, a Jew, a Muslim, or whatever the hell religion then that's your business, but if you don't follow ALL the rules of that religion then you are a liar every time you claim to be an adherant of that faith.

Oh! I see! Yes, I understand your point now... Sorry for the confusion.:)

All of these are taken from the New International Version (NIV)

Well, let's read them...


5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

So the reason to not have sex with men was because they were under the protection of Lot's roof. It doesn't say that men having sex with men is of itself a bad thing. And then Lot says - here have my daughters instead. So does the bible condemn homosexuality but condone giving your daughters to a mob who wanna get jiggy? If so I'm going right round to your pastor's house to see if he has any daughters.



'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable



If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Well those two are pretty unequivocal, but then Leviticus also says:

4:14 When they become aware of the sin they committed, the assembly must bring a young bull as a sin offering and present it before the Tent of Meeting.

4:27 If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty. 28 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect.

11:7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

11:12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you.

19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

So if you've never sacrificed a bull or a female goat, and if you've eaten any pork product or any shellfish in your life, and if you've ever cut the hair at the sides of your head or ever had a shave, you can't tell me that you follow the teachings in Leviticus.





27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

There's a call to judgement isn't there? I mean Paul is telling us to condemn these perverts isn't he? Well no.

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

That's YOU Emerica, when you pass judgement you are condemning yourself.



9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


OK Gays don't go to heaven, but I hope you're catholic because in the next chapter it says

10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

So you better not get divorced or you're as bad as a queer.



9We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine


Well no mention of homosexuality there.


I would also like to point out that someone said that most references against homosexuality is in the old testament. WRONG! I found only two in the old testament and three in the new. So they are everywhere in the Bilbe! Not just in the old testament.

Yes, but as I said, Jesus never ever mentions homsexuality. Not ever.

And Timothy says (1 Timothy 2:8) I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing. So stop disputing, and don't get so angry.

I went to Google...here is the first article that came up on Kerry and the Paulist Center.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/376zabkx.asp

I am Catholic and pro-choice. People should always have the right to choose what happens to their own bodies and lives.
Just as people should be able to choose their leaders, through voting.
For you to say that voting for Kerry would be voting against their beliefs actually means that they would be voting against your beliefs. I prefer my belief system to yours.

It is a complex world where issues aren't always black and white. People can have faith, but believe in the power of God-given choice.

I guess one could compare the man who is catholic and pro-choice, to the man who claims he is relegious, yet send Americans to their death in the name of democracy.

Should one be able to end a life sooner, or later?
Personally I would like to take the coat hanger away from Bush.

Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13


Regarding Genesis 19:5-8: This passage doesn't condemn sex between men and men. It condemns sex between men and angels, which, as already mentioned in Genesis, leads to 'evil'... Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters OF men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were OF old, men OF renown".


Regarding Leviticus 18:22. I have seen this translated by a Jew from the original Hebrew. I quote: "...But I will say that Va Y'ikra 18:22 has been continuously mistranslated, when one looks at it - it basically says "Do not lie in the bed of a menstruating woman because the bed is unclean." ..."

Catholicism was an equal concern to voters during the J.F. Kennedy campaign. The voters were concerned that he would allow his religious convictions to sway him on public policy. It frightens me that we've swung that far in the opposite direction. There's a reason Church and State were purposefully separated when the Constitution was written.

BULL SHIT HE NEVER MENTIONS HOMESEXUALITY! Why dont you read the Bible! Its stated plenty of times! So dont fucking tell me he never mentioned it! According to the Bible and the Christian faith being gay and having gay marriage is WRONG! If you dont believe me then walk down to your nearest Christian church and ask around, they'll tell you the same thing!

OMG, this is funny. Are you for real? Or are you doing a parody?! Reminds me of the (cough) bible thumping "Christians" that were living across the street. After watching two of the children a few times randomly screaming obscenities at passing cars, the oldest child climbing on the roof and removing her shirt, and having the mother undress in front of one of the young (8 or 9 years old) boys from the neighborhood, my husband and I told our kids to steer clear of them. The mother then cornered my young son on his bicycle telling him to be friends with her children (all of which are 2 to 7 years older than him in the first place). She refused to let him go when he said he needed to get home.

Later, my husband decided to go over and discuss the situation. The dad comes out and the first words spoken are "Are you a christian?!" My husband was taken aback by the question so the guy repeated it in just under a yell. My husband replied he didn't see the relevance. The guy replied "You're not! So get your ass off my fucking porch!"

We laughed a good 4 hours over these righteous christian folk. We've had many more laughs since, including the revolving door of "dad replacements" over the years. I could go on and on but I'll go to the point.

I'm a believer in God, and a believer in Jesus Christ. I was born and raised Catholic, but I choose to avoid organized religion. My granddad used to say that church was where people went to feel all holy and good because it was easier to go to a church once a week than actually be a good person.

Christ would NEVER slap the anything out of anyone. He would turn the other cheek. He would not condone violence or war. He spent his life embracing the very people modern Christains use his name to villify. I'd even go as far as to say if Christ came back today, he would probably end up lynched by a modern Christian. If you have a savings acct, stocks bonds, any money besides what you need to live and support your family day to day, you are not a true Christian. Not as long as one person is hungry or homeless while you have too much. Neither Bush nor Kerry are truely Christian, if for no other reason they both have too much money. But even if modern Christianity had not been bastardized into a hate cult it would not change one important thing.

Seperation of church and state. Mixing God and policy is never a good idea. It leads to things like people flying airplanes into buildings. Just because we as a mostly judeo-christian society cannot comprehend that particular brand of religious-political extremism means nothing. There are millions of muslims in the world who cannot comprehend such either!

Regarding Genesis 19:5-8: This passage doesn't condemn sex between men and men. It condemns sex between men and angels, which, as already mentioned in Genesis, leads to 'evil'... Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters OF men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were OF old, men OF renown".


Why, that is true. The men that came to Lot's house are

"The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening" (Genesis 19:1). I can see now why Lot gives his daughters to the crowd instead. He isn't worried about homosexuality or fornication, but he has to protect the angels.



Regarding Leviticus 18:22. I have seen this translated by a Jew from the original Hebrew. I quote: "...But I will say that Va Y'ikra 18:22 has been continuously mistranslated, when one looks at it - it basically says "Do not lie in the bed of a menstruating woman because the bed is unclean." ..."

That's a bit of a stretch though

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

I've taken a very strong look at my faith and am quite confident in my decision to support Kerry. As a Catholic voter, I even feel morally justified in my decision.

Let's take a look at your little lines:

Gay Marriage: Neither candidate endorses marriage. Bush does go a bit further to restrict the civil rights of a human being than Kerry does. Bush scores no morality points in this stance. In fact, if one looked close enough, they would remember that Bush's stance on gay marriage in 2000 was that it was an issue for states to decide. His stance changed completely when it became an issue for this election. So he flipflopped. One must wonder what he truly believes, if anything at all, on this issue.

Abortion: Bush opposes while Kerry is pro-choice. Kerry is not out there saying that everyone should have an abortion. He is saying that it is an issue that has already been decided by the government. While Bush's stance scores morality points, he loses out considerably on the grounds that he actually supported Robin Lowman (his girlfriend) to get an abortion of his child. So if he's taking a moral position on this issue, then one must question why it was an ok choice for him but not for anyone else. Score one for Kerry.

Voluntary Prayer: Your statement is quite incorrect. Bush does not support voluntary prayer. He supports mandatory prayer. You may check that yourself from the Texas Republican Party Platform, the same platform Bush was elected from.

As a Christian, I do not believe that my religious views should be forced upon anyone else. Voluntary prayer is a noble idea in theory, but in reality its quite another story.

In this type of situation, many Christians seem to be united on the issue, until it comes down to what type of prayer. Its ok to say a voluntary prayer to God, but what about when people want to say a voluntary prayer to Allah or Yahweh? Then, many Christians who support voluntary prayer become quite hostile to the idea. Or, for that matter, what happens when the voluntary prayer is a Christian prayer but not one that a particular Christian branch recites? How would a Baptist feel if the voluntary prayer is the Hail Mary?

Too often, what ends up happening is that the voluntary prayer ends up being something specific for the dominant religion of the area. If you want prayer, send your child to private school. I do, and my son is in private school because of it.

Asking for God's blessing: Bush uses God in every way, shape, and form. That is not what a decent Christian does. One does not invoke the name of God to browbeat others, as Bush has done, especially with the Iraq invasion. We are not in a holy war. It should not be characterized as one by Bush. Were Bush merely asking God for a blessing, I would have no problem with it. Kerry has not bashed Bush for asking for blessings and to say he has is a deceptive practice.

Now, let's address some issues you've not covered:

1. Bush endorses Bob Jones University. Catholic voters should be constantly reminded of this fact. BUSH ENDORSES BOB JONES UNIVERSITY!! Every time I meet a Catholic voter in favor of Bush, I remind them of this fact. On several occasions, this act alone is enough to sway that Catholic voter to drop their support of Bush and endorse Kerry. Bob Jones University is a hatefilled campus that calls Catholicism a cult, when its being nice. Catholics should be made aware what Bush truly thinks about them.

2. Bush signed off on more executions as governor than anyone else. As a Christian, I understand that it is God's place and not our own to cast down ultimate judgement upon humanity. God created life and we should not bestow His will and judgement upon ourselves. In short, it is not our place to play God with life and death. His rampant support of the death penalty is a severe detriment to his supposed morality.

3. Bush refuses to admit his wrongdoings. A truly moral Christian admits their wrongdoings and asks God for forgiveness. They do not whitewash their misdeeds. Lying about the reasons for war in Iraq and then saying that doesn't matter is a serious morality flaw. Lying about the linkages between Iraq and terrorism is a greater moral flaw.

4. Jesus teaches that the meek are blessed. Those who are in need are those we must help. Those who are poor shall inherit the riches of the earth. Yet under Bush, programs designed to help the poor and downtrodden have suffered royally. He has done nothing to help the people who are in need and our country has suffered as a result. The amount of children living in poverty has grown at a disturbing pace since Bush took office. The income disparity of our country has also grown at a horrid pace. To cast a blind eye to those in need is not the act of a moral Christian.

5. Bush opposes raising the minimum wage. In fact, he favors abolishing the minimum wage altogether. Those who earn a minimum wage already live in poverty. They have difficulties with raising and supporting a family. Bush has done nothing to aid them. Those who are in need find their cries for help falling on deaf ears with Bush at the helm. That is not the act of a moral Christian.


Bush gets a free ride from several churches ONLY because of his stance on abortion and gay marriage. And as I've already stated, he says one thing but has practiced another regarding abortion. Don't sit there and preach about how someone can't be a Christian and endorse Kerry. Bush has had 4 years as president to show what he would do as a moral Christian. Our country has suffered as a result.

Bush throws the name of God into everything he does. So does his administration. It gets tiring to hear the comparisons but it is justified in this case. Bush and his administration's act of saying that God is guiding their hand in everything they do is akin to the fascists of the Nazi party of the 1930's. It is truly frightening the similarities between them on the usage of God as the rationale for everything they do.

Bottom line, Bush talks up a good story for Christians to hear. He says the things that please Christians. But it is your actions that judge you when you face God. Your actions determine your morality, not your words. And in Bush's case, his actions fall short.

"But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great." ~~Luke 6:49

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

Not true, but let's see if you can back this up. And I'm gonna state now, I'm not a Kerry supporter. I like to see myself as beyond the party lines. I only like the respectable politicians, unfortunately there are little to none on both sides. I'd prolly vote Nader anyway, mainly because Bush will win my state anyway. If he's not there, I'll be torn between two of the worst choices for president I've ever seen.

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

That's not necessarily true. You can be religious and not like Bush. And just because you're religious doesn't mean you want the government to step in and regulate peoples lives and not allow them to have an abortion or get married. Hell, what about the death penalty? It's murder, which is a sin btw, but your golden-boy Bush supports it. This is to prove that there is extreme overlap between politics and religion. No one candidate is perfectly aligned with religious beliefs. They all have an agenda. And Bush, like most Republicans, uses religion in their agenda to gain power in the government.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Ok Kerry doesn't favor. Edwards doesn't favor. Get it right. I've heard and read COUNTLESS times that Kerry favors Civil UNIONS not gay marriage. He doesn't want gay marriage, he wants to keep the word to mean a union between a man and a woman. But like most people, he would vote against the constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage because it goes against everything the Constitution and Bill of Rights stands for.

[/quote]Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors[/quote]

Another half truth. He doesn't want to regulate abortion, because he doesn't believe the government has any right to tell a woman what she can and can't do. Not only that but he believes that it is wrong. Which is respectable, I have a few issues in which I'm split on the main two being abortion and the death penalty.

Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses

Prayer is still allowed in school somewhat. Just not ORGANISED prayer in PUBLIC schools. Which is a good thing. Public schools mean there would be many students which different religions attending classes together. With this you can not have organized prayer in these classes without the childrens civil rights being violated, or at the very least being bent if not broken.

Now private schools that have a religious base to them can have all the organsied prayer they want, because they can control which students attend. Now let's say you're Buddhist and you send you're child to a public school, but you didn't know that school has organized public prayer in which all the students and faculty say a Christian prayer everyday. You'd be pretty pissed right?

Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

If Bush was really doing the moral or just thing in his polices he wouldn't need to ask for God's blessing.

Ok sorry that was a cheap shot, but I meant it in a comedic way. So sue me. But there is no right or wrong to this. It's a none issue. Kerry shouldn't critize it, and everything Bush does. He comes off as just the Anti-Bush candidate because of it. They seem to be using the old Al Gore playbook from 2000, which really sucks because it does nothing to fire up the American people's hearts, minds, and souls to get out of the house and into the booth.

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Well I'm proud to say I've totally torn apart this post that was littered with half-truths, unfortunately like a lot of political commentaries are. It is the way of politics. All the parties care about is power, with very little thought to society and the people.

Bush/Cheney '04

No thank you. I'm not a Kerry supporter. But there's no way in hell I'm voting for Bush.

This may be of interest:

US Constitution
Article IV (Full Faith and Credit)

Section 2. The citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.

and of course:
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

And:
Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

It may of been mentioned, but I am too lazy to check... but supposidly up to 80% of Catholics support Abortion to some degree.

and I should point out that as we are a Secular nation, the invocation of God by Bush is counter to the fundemental basis of this nation.

Why, that is true. The men that came to Lot's house are

"The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening" (Genesis 19:1). I can see now why Lot gives his daughters to the crowd instead. He isn't worried about homosexuality or fornication, but he has to protect the angels.


Possibly more imortantly, the 'giants' that walked the earth.. the evil that the flood is intended to destroy, are the offspring of angels with humans... so it might be a REALLY bad idea to let the men get their hands on the angels.


That's a bit of a stretch though

I don't see it as a stretch, have you ever seen it in the Hebrew?

"Shakab Zakar Mishkab 'ishshah Tow'ebah", which, and I am going to do very loose translation here, since it is hard to approximate colloquialisms that are three millenia old: "[To lie down] + [Man] + [Lying down (as in 'for sexual contact')] + [Woman] + [A disgusting thing]"... which would give us, basically "It is a disgusting thing for a man to lie down with a woman for sexual contact".

Now, I suspect the Jewish person I was communicating with understood some deeper significance to ('ishshah) than I do, and that is where the menstruation concept comes in... but - it obviously has no connotation (in Hebrew) to homosexuality.

Extra Thought: In fact, if we take the 'disgusting thing' interpretation of Tow'ebah to mean "ritually unclean", this does join perfectly with other biblical commentary about menstruation.

I don't see it as a stretch, have you ever seen it in the Hebrew?

"Shakab Zakar Mishkab 'ishshah Tow'ebah", which, and I am going to do very loose translation here, since it is hard to approximate colloquialisms that are three millenia old: "[To lie down] + [Man] + [Lying down (as in 'for sexual contact')] + [Woman] + [A disgusting thing]"... which would give us, basically "It is a disgusting thing for a man to lie down with a woman for sexual contact".

Now, I suspect the Jewish person I was communicating with understood some deeper significance to ('ishshah) than I do, and that is where the menstruation concept comes in... but - it obviously has no connotation (in Hebrew) to homosexuality.

i don't know hebrew from my butt, well i can recognise israeli writing but i have no idea what it means. so it isn't really obvious to me that it isn't about homosexuality. but I'm happy to take your word for it.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04
BUSH: Has a Christian stance on abortion and gay marriage
KERRY: everything else

btw, prayer in school is a very unchristian thing to do unless it is done silently where no one can see you

Also, one should ask for God's blessing on THE WORLD, not just our country. That's selfish. I say GOD BLESS IRAQ.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

you must not be catholic

2. Bush signed off on more executions as governor than anyone else. As a Christian, I understand that it is God's place and not our own to cast down ultimate judgement upon humanity. God created life and we should not bestow His will and judgement upon ourselves. In short, it is not our place to play God with life and death. His rampant support of the death penalty is a severe detriment to his supposed morality.


Doesn't he also have the record for the most executions of retarded criminals as well?

:cool: "You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

Got another Bumper sticker for you Emerica

You can't be Catholic and Stupid.....oh wait.....yes you can! Nevermind!
:cool:

:cool:

Got another Bumper sticker for you Emerica

You can't be Catholic and Stupid.....oh wait.....yes you can! Nevermind!
:cool:

Heh what do you know, someone can stereotype and be a asshole at the same time.

:p This is great, and one hell of a funny read, taken here:

http://www.craigslist.org/best/5465291.html

Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to
people who call in to her radio show. Recently she said that
homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22,
and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The
following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which
was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have
learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with
as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other
specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord -- Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for
her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness -- Lev. 15:19-24. The problem is, how do
I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill
him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination -- Lev. 11:10-- it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality.
I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.
19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone them? -- Lev.24:10-16.
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do
with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you
can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

-----------------------------------------------

So shall we really accept that homosexuality is such a bad thing? Perhaps someone just needs plugged in the pooper a little bit to really understand the whole homosexual thing (And I'm excluding female homosexuals as you seem to be doing from your posts above; as the bible mentions 2 men can't lie together or pack each other's shit for them; but nowhere do you mention women. So is gay marriage allowed for women?) :eek:

Heh what do you know, someone can stereotype and be a asshole at the same time.

Hickdumb.....appropriate nickname:

Definition of Stereotype: (http://www.dictionary.com)

1 A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
2 One that is regarded as embodying or conforming to a set image or type.
3 Printing. A metal printing plate cast from a matrix molded from a raised printing surface, such as type.

tr.v. ster·e·o·typed, ster·e·o·typ·ing, ster·e·o·types
1 To make a stereotype of.
2 To characterize by a stereotype: “Elderly Americans are the neglected sector of the fashion industry, stereotyped by blue hair and polyester pantsuits” (American Demographics).
3 To give a fixed, unvarying form to.
4 To print from a stereotype.
----------------------
How did I stereotype Hickdumb? I was claiming Emerica was both a Catholic and stupid, therefore a possible exception that all Catholics know everything. Did I say all Catholics were dumb and stupid? No. I agree on being an asshole though. But at least I'm a smart asshole :p

My apologies if this was said before, I didn't read all 10 pages.

What is interesting from Kerry is his declaration that the separation of church and state precludes him from "inflicting" his religious views on citizens in his capacity as a government official. That's just a flat-out wrong interpretation of the doctrine (which, I realize, isn't well-defined to begin with). Separation of church and state precludes the government from settng up a state-sanctioned religion and forcing citizens to subscribe to it. It does not mean an individual can't be guided by religious beliefs when setting policy.

How is setting policy based on religious beliefs and setting up a state church different?

Here's an example to clarify:
Suppose the government became controlled by Jews. Since it's okay for them to be guided by their religious beliefs when making laws, they might decide to outlaw something they believe is wrong: eating non-kosher food. Maybe they go a little farther, and say that it's wrong to not go to Temple on Saturdays and make skipping Temple illegal. Remember, these Jews are just being "guided by religious beliefs when setting policy," which is, according to you, different than "setting up a state-sanctioned religion and forcing citizens to subscribe to it."

I think it's clear that laws motivated by religious beliefs violate the separation of church and state.

"You cant be Catholic and Stupid" this is a generalized statement, you did not say he specifically was stupid, you said "Catholics" that is stereotyping, thats a generalization and categorizing a group. As perhaps i judged your ethnic based on my judgements of you. In other words, i called you a asshole, i singled you out, but if i said you cant be this ethnic group and a asshole oh wait yes you can. Thats stereotyping.

"You cant be Catholic and Stupid" this is a generalized statement, you did not say he specifically was stupid, you said "Catholics" that is stereotyping, thats a generalization and categorizing a group. As perhaps i judged your ethnic based on my judgements of you. In other words, i called you a asshole, i singled you out, but if i said you cant be this ethnic group and a asshole oh wait yes you can. Thats stereotyping.

Let's get linguistic:

"You can't be Catholic and stupid... oh wait... yes you can! Nevermind!"

The statement doesn't suggest that all Catholics are stupid. It infers that there ARE stupid Catholics in the world. Claiming this is a stereotype asserting that all Catholics are stupid is just as dammaging as saying "all Catholics are smart." It's simply not true. You weren't meant to take offense. It's a simple matter of linguistics.

Having said that, the statement wasn't tactful and resorted to the same kind of tactics I have disagreed with in the past: Blatant namecalling and HTMLing your posts into superior importance.

"first you guys say that African American's are not really people...now it is homosexuals...JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU."

That is funny! You obviously know nothing about the Christian faith. Jesus too was agaisnt homosexuality. As stated in the Bible. Marriage is a union of man and woman! NOT man and man or woman and woman! Get the facts straight asshole! And as also stated in the Bible, any unholy union (man and man or woman and woman) is flith in the eyes of the Lord and shall be condemned! And second, who the hell mentioned anything about african americans? NO ONE in this thread! So dont try starting some new shit just to turn it around! So if you are gay or support gay marriage then "JESUS WOULD SLAP THE SHIT OUT OF YOU!!!"

Regardless of Jesus's stance on homosexuality, I'm fairly sure Jesus would slap the shit out of you, sir.

It would really be cool if people could make their points without resorting to ad hominem, huge fonts, and curse words. Thanks.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Kerry doesn't favor Gay Marriage.

Let's get linguistic:

"You can't be Catholic and stupid... oh wait... yes you can! Nevermind!"

The statement doesn't suggest that all Catholics are stupid. It infers that there ARE stupid Catholics in the world. ... It's a simple matter of linguistics.


If we're going to get linguistic, it doesn't infer anything. *You* infer that it *implies* that there are stupid catholics.

It would really be cool if people could make their points without resorting to ad hominem, huge fonts, and curse words. Thanks.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator


Curse words are really not ok? I personally love curse words, in conversational usage. Not for cursing people with though.

Doesn't he also have the record for the most executions of retarded criminals as well?
All criminals are retarded.

Curse words are really not ok? I personally love curse words, in conversational usage. Not for cursing people with though.
If you're not cursing somebody, than it's not a curse word.

If we're going to get linguistic, it doesn't infer anything. *You* infer that it *implies* that there are stupid catholics.

Ooops... dyslexic at computer. My apologies. *reddens* How humiliating. Can I go back and edit the post please? *pouts* Pretty please?

Originally Posted by Fascist Emerica
Genesis 19: 5-8

Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13Regarding Genesis 19:5-8: This passage doesn't condemn sex between men and men. It condemns sex between men and angels, which, as already mentioned in Genesis, leads to 'evil'... Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters OF men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were OF old, men OF renown".
Interesting! I never connected those before.

Regarding Leviticus 18:22. I have seen this translated by a Jew from the original Hebrew. I quote: "...But I will say that Va Y'ikra 18:22 has been continuously mistranslated, when one looks at it - it basically says "Do not lie in the bed of a menstruating woman because the bed is unclean." ..."
According to my Bible, The Message, 18:19 covers menstruating women.
"Don't have sex with a close relative. I am GOD.
"Don't violate your father by having sex with your mother. She is your mother. Don't have sex with her.
"Don't have sex with your father's wife. That violates your father.
"Don't have sex with your sister, whether she's your father's daughter or your mother's, whether she was born in the same house or elsewhere.
"Don't have sex with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter. That would violate your own body.
"Don't have sex with the daughter of your father's wife born to your father. She is your sister.
"Don't have sex with your father's sister; she is your aunt, closely related to your father.
"Don't have sex with your mother's sister; she is your aunt, closely related to your mother.
"Don't violate your father's brother, your uncle, by having sex with his wife. She is your aunt.
"Don't have sex with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; don't have sex with her.
"Don't have sex with your brother's wife; that would violate your brother.
"Don't have sex with both a woman and her daughter. And don't have sex with her granddaughters either. They are her close relatives. That is wicked.
"Don't marry your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sex with her while your wife is living.
(19)"Don't have sex with a woman during the time of her menstrual period when she is unclean.
"Don't have sex with your neighbor's wife and violate yourself by her.
"Don't give any of your children to be burned in sacrifice to the god Molech--an act of sheer blasphemy of your God. I am GOD.
"Don't have sex with a man as one does with a woman. That is abhorrent.
"Don't have sex with an animal and violate yourself by it.
"A woman must not have sex with an animal. That is perverse.
"...Keep to what I tell you; don't engage in any of the abhorrent acts that were practiced before you came. Don't pollute yourselves with them. I am GOD, your God."
I love the way God signs his letters.

I think it's cool how God tells you not to have sex with them and then explains WHO they are (sister, mother, aunt, uncle). Don't have sex with your father's sister... she is your aunt. How sweet to help with that knowledge. What a benevolent God.

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

What an idiotic statement. I believe the correct one would be "You can't be a good Catholic and be pro-abortion."

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage?

Maybe he is smart enough to realize that all of the people he has been chosen to represent are not Catholic? Besides, he doesn't support gay marriage anyways.

For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith!

If you can't question your faith and accept the fact that you just *might* be wrong, it is not faith at all.

Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

There is no black and white. And you don't act very Christian by condemning others for having views that don't agree with yours.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong. Kerry favors states deciding whether or not to have civil unions. Bush used to favor states deciding, but then flip-flopped when a state decided to allow it.

Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors

Wrong. Bush opposes abortion and the choice to have one. Kerry favors the rights of people to make their own relgious decisions. I doubt he "favors abortion."

Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses

There already is voluntary prayer in school - it just can't be administrator led.

Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

Again, Kerry recognizes that he represents more than just you.

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

I have quite obviously taken a much stronger look at my faith than you have. Perhaps you should heed your own words.

Destruction of American Ideals'04

"You cant be Catholic and pro-choice"

That is probably the best bumper sticker I have ever seen! How can Kerry get away saying he is a Catholic but supports abortion and gay marriage? For all of us who are religious (especially Catholics and Christians) our obvious choice is Bush! I dont see any execuse for a religious person to vote for Kerry. If you do then your voting against your own beliefs and are not true in your faith! Personally I am a Christian, but I have liked Bush from the start! For us religious voters the canidates stances on there issues are black and white.

Gay Marriage - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Abortion - Bush oposses, Kerry favors
Bringing back voluntary prayer in school - Bush favors, Kerry oposses
Asking for God's blessing on America - Bush often in his speeches asks for God's blessing and askes for God to bless the people too. Kerry has attacked Bush for mentioning God so much!

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04

It's people like you who are preventing people like a dear friend of mine, who actually cares about his faith, as well as his political position, from being able to feel comfortable in what should be his Church.

He has said to me, on repeated occaisons, that if the Church ever decides to deny pro-choice people communion, that he will have to leave and renounce Catholicism, and won't be able to raise children in the Church in good conscience.

Every time I see him I remark that I think it's so sad there's no version of "Reform Catholicism"- particularly in America where there are a sizeable portion of Catholic liberals (as well as liberal Catholics).

I predict that there will be a split in the American Catholic Church soon. I can't wait.

Edit: For the record, Orthodox Judaism opposes abortion (except in cases where the mother is endangered, with varrying positions on rape and incest), but for the exact opposite reason most conservative Christian denominations do- Orthodox Judaism says the fetus isn't a person, but the mother is forbidden to engage in "unecessary surgery", as it constitutes mutilation of HER body.

So if your a religious voter and you support Kerry...I suggest you take a strong look at your faith. Because obviously you dont believe in it much!

Bush/Cheney '04


Wow...it's people like you who make me wonder why anybody accepts Christ.

All criminals are retarded.

Including George W. "only US President with a criminal record" Bush?

Including George W. "only US President with a criminal record" Bush?
How about only president with a spouse who should have a criminal record? She ran over someone while running red light, drinking, and speeding of course. He was a track star. Her parents paid off the guy so wouldn't pursue it in court.

christians dont make any sense in the first place. try reading the bible it contradicts its self hundreds of times. As for Bush supporters he is going to be the first president since Hoover to have a net job lose while in office. bush is against gay marriage because he is a bible humping red neck. I am against marriage in the first place. i believe that the government has no place in the church and vice versa. Bush and Kerry also have similar views on abortion. they both believe that it is only ok if the mother is in danger or is a victim of rape or incest. Kerry is pro labor and Bush isnt and u cant go against the proletariat. I also hate it when Bush and Kerry say god bless america, why not god bless the world? To all those who are bible humping christians and support bush and think that Bush has the ideals that god wants a person to have i say this. Prove that god exists and that he/she/it shares your ignorant and hateful views!

Curse words are really not ok? I personally love curse words, in conversational usage. Not for cursing people with though.
They're OK if they aren't directed at someone in particular. My post was just a request to calm down, really.

bible humping christians

Ouch, paper cuts. =)

Originally Posted by Fascist Emerica - And if they cant do that then there is antother magiacal word. ADOPTION. Someone else will raise the kid! You dont have to kill it!

There are so many kids living in residential estates and foster homes these days because there aren't as many people who will adopt these children as there are people who put them up for adoption in the first place.

Many of these children suffer emotional distress when they are adults and are unable to have long-lasting relationships or sometimes show difficulty expressing their emotions. Maybe abortion is wrong, but what kind of life would these children have anyway.

the fact religious leaders are preahcing support for bush sickens me, once they start preaching at the pulpit, their religious exemptions from government control should be revoked. the church should be about church: spreading gods word, praying, readign the bible, not playing "PICK THIS CANDIDATE OR GO TO HELL"

True, but Kerry's economics favors more welfare for the people: a central message in religion. Anyway, I supported Bush, but if I didn't hate Kerry so much I probably would have voted Constitutional Party.

True, but Kerry's economics favors more welfare for the people: a central message in religion. Anyway, I supported Bush, but if I didn't hate Kerry so much I probably would have voted Constitutional Party.

Yes, because that's what the US needs to be, a theocracy!

Idiot. Don't vote, please. You're bringing down the US with your stupidity.

Is it a very Christian thing to support capital punishment? To support thousands of civillians being killed in war? If you add up all the aborted children for a decade, I bet it wouldn't even come close to how many people have been killed under Bush's orders.

I don't see anywhere in catholic teaching that it says "use legal means to prevent non-catholics using contraception, having abortions or getting remarried after divorce". When did the Pope say "Gay marriage is not catholic, therefore catholics should do all they can to stop two clearly non-catholic women from doing something that as far as they are concerned is marriage. Not as far as we are concerned, because to catholics only catholic marriage is marriage."

No, but I think that Catholic doctrine says that if you watch a sin happen and let it happen it is as if you comitted the sin yourself. I'm not actually a Catholic, so could someone clear this up?

Unless someone already has, in which case I feel really stupid.