NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, I saw that "Ask a Jew" thread (*smirk*) and thought "Why not do the same?"

A lot of people are clueless as to the practices and beliefs of Germans. I don't claim to be a master of the subject (I am not Christian, I need a calendar to remember when all the Holidays are, and I know only a tiny percentage of the history and teachings) but I am better informed than the majority of Earths populace.

So, if you have any questions about Germany and Germans feel free to ask them here. I will answer to the best of my knowledge, but please do not expect exact and perfect explanations. What I don't know I will attempt to look up for you, and if I can't find it I will tell you so. I'll try not to make up to much stuff, but I make no promises

Who's first?

Is it true that the Germans have a strong work ethnic, or is it a pro-German stereotype?

How do you feel about Austria?

How much of the Wall of Berlin still exists?

Do you believe that the holocaust was really the biggest mugging in history?

What I suppose i'm asking is this:

Do you think Hitler's motivation was to steal the gold coins from under the yamukas of all the jews he murdered?

Could this have been how he funded his war effort?

I think that that makes him twice as bad as before... a genocidal murderer and a petty thief.

Is it true that the Germans have a strong work ethnic, or is it a pro-German stereotype?
It is true. Although with unemployment being at around 11% (officially) this ethnic is being hindered from being celebrated. We are lacking jobs and the government fails to make new ones, thus we're on an endless spiral of increasing unemployment. Those who do work are good workers, however we suffer from the same "corporitization" some other western nations suffer from.

Managers/CEOs/politicians get much too much for their lack of doing things right, thus somewhat annoying the middle/working class of our society.

How do you feel about Austria?
Austria is a "brothernation". Although feelings towards Austria may vary from German to German, it is generally believed that due to sharing the same language (although with different accents), both nations share the same culture and feel like relatives towards each other.

How much of the Wall of Berlin still exists?
Not much is left of the wall. As far as I know, only a few short pieces are left in Berlin to serve as memorial. During the time when Germany was divided, it was used to keep people out (Westerners out of East Germany and East Germans out of the West). Today the wall needs a fence to keep people away from it who want to peck pieces out of it to keep as souvenirs ;)

However the wall itself did not just exist in Berlin itself. The dividing line, which was not enforced in the form of a wall all the time, spanned through a significant part of Germany, cutting 5 states off of the normally 16 states.

Do you believe that the holocaust was really the biggest mugging in history?

What I suppose i'm asking is this:

Do you think Hitler's motivation was to steal the gold coins from under the yamukas of all the jews he murdered?

Could this have been how he funded his war effort?

I think that that makes him twice as bad as before... a genocidal murderer and a petty thief.
No. It is debatable how the holocaust happened. It is a widely known saying that the victor writes history, so the history we are being taught may have happened like this or not. While I do not deny that the Holocaust happened, it is questionable how exactly it happened due to the loss of a lot of documents and very little genuine documentation from the time due to the "de-nazification" of Germany after WW2 and the destruction of a lot of cities, resulting in the loss of many documents.

Besides this, I doubt that Hitler would have had to steal the gold coins of jews. Germany was not *that* poor ;)

How much of the Wall of Berlin still exists?
no idea. ive never been to berlin. from what ive seen on tv there are only small parts left, just enough to remember the history.

How do you feel about Austria?
they are brothers, one of us. they just feel like creating their own country from time to time. sometimes the southeners are a bit strange.
but im sure every austrian and german will stand together when things get hard.

Why don't you FECK OFF, we don't need another one of these threads

Do you believe that the holocaust was really the biggest mugging in history? no. stalin for example killed far more people in his gulags during the same time.

Do you think Hitler's motivation was to steal the gold coins from under the yamukas of all the jews he murdered? no. where have you got this strange idea from?

Could this have been how he funded his war effort? crap. no.

I have a few questions:

1) What do you think of Anschluss? [Austro-German political unification]. I don't mean the historical 1938 Anschluss, just the idea in general. I'd go so far as to say the Austrian national identity is no further removed from the German 'norm' as, say, a Bavarian.

While in Austria in February, I spoke to my ski instructor about the idea of Anschluss and he was very much in favour of it. He also condemned the EU, and declared Austria was a false nation... extremist or general Austrian opinion?

2) What do you think of Konigsberg [Kaliningrad] and Russia's shoddy treatment of it? Do you consider it essentially 'German' land, as it has been German populated since the 700's even though it was cleared of Germans in early 1945?

3) What do you think about the practice of the German government not having the national anthem sung in full at events where it would be in other countries? 'Deutschland Uber Alles' describes Germany as being from the 'Maas to Memel', and from 'Etsch to Belt', which I suppose is almost stating sovereignity over parts of Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Lithuania and Konigsberg, and I think this is why it is not sung.

To compare, the national anthem of the UK (being England, Wales, Scotland and Ulster) describes killing rebellious Scots, and the national anthem of France is very militaristic:

To arms, citizens!
Form up your battalions
Let us march, Let us march!
That their impure blood
Should water our fields

It seems like a case of German 'over-apologising' all over again. I suppose a lot of people would be dead against Germany ever becoming bold and proud again, but I'm very much in favour of it - its not like they're going to invade anyone again.

What is german chocolate like?

I have a few questions:

1) What do you think of Anschluss? [Austro-German political unification]. I don't mean the historical 1938 Anschluss, just the idea in general. I'd go so far as to say the Austrian national identity is no further removed from the German 'norm' as, say, a Bavarian.

While in Austria in February, I spoke to my ski instructor about the idea of Anschluss and he was very much in favour of it. He also condemned the EU, and declared Austria was a false nation... extremist or general Austrian opinion?

As an Austrian I can say that this is an extremist opinion. Although Austria is a very small country most of her citizens are proud of their country. But this attitude has developed only after WW II.

Between the two World Wars the idea of a united german Reich had many supporters. Austrians were used to live in the huge Austro-Hungarian empire that was reduced to current Austria after WW I. That was a shock and many didn't believe Austria could make a living on her own and longed for the Anschluss. That made it very easy for Hitler to annex Austria in 1938.

Today many citizens are so used to Austria being a souvereign state that they do not realized that we have given a part of our souvereignity over to the EU and have to find compromizes with 24 other countries and do lobbying in Brussels.

The Bavarian and Austrian identity are very similar and both different from e.g. Saxony. But Bavaria has been part of Germany for 80+ years whereas Austria has been a souvereign state for that period.

Today the wall needs a fence to keep people away from it who want to peck pieces out of it to keep as souvenirs ;)
I've got a piece, a splinter realy, of the wall. Cutt it out of the wall back in 1989 myself.

Do you think Hitler's motivation was to steal the gold coins from under the yamukas of all the jews he murdered?
I think he took their possesions before that.

Could this have been how he funded his war effort?

Naah. He funded the war effort with loans. So he sooner or later had to start a war, or declare bankcrupzy. And the Jews were not THAT rich.

Austria is a "brothernation". Although feelings towards Austria may vary from German to German, it is generally believed that due to sharing the same language (although with different accents), both nations share the same culture and feel like relatives towards each other.
Austria was originally colonised by Bavarian settlers from the year 700 on. And again after pushing the Magyars out of the Donau area in 955. Back then it was part of the Ostmark.

What do you think of Anschluss? [Austro-German political unification]. I don't mean the historical 1938 Anschluss, just the idea in general. I'd go so far as to say the Austrian national identity is no further removed from the German 'norm' as, say, a Bavarian.

While in Austria in February, I spoke to my ski instructor about the idea of Anschluss and he was very much in favour of it. He also condemned the EU, and declared Austria was a false nation... extremist or general Austrian opinion? well, germany is a federation of several little "countrys". 16 to be exact. when they first came together no one really considered themself "german", but bavarian, prussian, slesvigan aso.
this has changed and the federation like character of this country isnt up to date if you ask me. (why form little countrys inside a big one when no one feels like hes a citizen of the small?)
austria is one of these small countrys and as much a part of germany as any other small country here is. they just thought its a nice idea to create their own country. thats up to them, bavaria thinks about this too from time to time. i would like it if austria comes back to germany. it would give everyone greater influence in the world.
if its a general austrian opinion to reunite with germany i cant say, im no austrian. but im very much in favor of this idea, if they want to. if not its ok too.

2) What do you think of Königsberg [Kaliningrad] and Russia's shoddy treatment of it? Do you consider it essentially 'German' land, as it has been German populated since the 700's even though it was cleared of Germans in early 1945? this is a very hard question. if you think of history, there is little doubt that its german land, as well as the land that now belongs to poland.
but the german population there was either chased away or murdered. the basic character, culture and language there that once was german is now polish or russian, together with the people who live there. i think it would be wrong to claim these lands back. we could as well claim the moskau! its just as foreign as Königsberg is today.
its a very sad and brutal chapter of (mostly) polish history that theyve yet to step up to. guesses are that they moved or murdered around 12 mil people.

3) What do you think about the practice of the German government not having the national anthem sung in full at events where it would be in other countries? 'Deutschland Uber Alles' describes Germany as being from the 'Maas to Memel', and from 'Etsch to Belt', which I suppose is almost stating sovereignity over parts of Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Lithuania and Konigsberg, and I think this is why it is not sung. its a case of political correctness, and over-apologizing yes. but i think it would be a little too rude to include this part again. i can very good imagine the media echo in uk and usa when we would include it again. "germany is at it again!""hitler is risen from his grave""when will they attack?" :rolleyes: we can live without it, it isnt like we sell the Brandenburg Gate while not singing it...

It seems like a case of German 'over-apologising' all over again. I suppose a lot of people would be dead against Germany ever becoming bold and proud again, but I'm very much in favour of it - its not like they're going to invade anyone again.
its very common for our politicans, and the older generation in general, to over-apologize. heck you even notice that in england, so this says a lot! you know what i think? that in the minds of the older people, hitler isnt dead. they keep him alive through their hatred, and thats why they think they still have to apologize in every way for him.
and some people, almost only americans, shout nazi at every opportunity and that strenghens this old farts in their believe to feel guilty for something they havent done. when this persons die i *really* hope we can leave ww2 in the history books and finally move on.
just a little story: some days ago i had a discussion on another forum about the german seat in the security council. a group of americans said theyre against it cause germanys crimes in the past were so great that shouldnt be allowed into anything until at last 100 years have passed. i said the ones that took part in this crimes are dead, and those that arent can you count on one hand and meet them in argentinia. they replyed that it doesnt matter.

and yes, why should germany start any war? there is no reason for it.

Wie fühlen sie?

Have you ever burned your pubes while dancing around a fire?

Wie fühlen sie?
Generaly speaking, by touch.

no. stalin for example killed far more people in his gulags during the same time.


But Stalin did not try to extinguish a whole ethnical group and had no Auschwitz, Dachau or Belsen-Bergen, which served only one purpose: Killing people by industrial means. So just go away to the moon, in exemple, there you might find some hidden Nazi-bases where you can surely have a great time. :)

Wohnen Sie in Deutschland?

Do you think that Germany should be forgiven for its crimes and that we should forget about that dark time period?

Do you think that Germany should be forgiven for its crimes and that we should forget about that dark time period?

Forgiven yes, forget never.

Do you think that Germany should be forgiven for its crimes and that we should forget about that dark time period?
Yes. In the same manner as the American crimes.

What is german chocolate like?
you obviously did not see it...

Wie Gehts?

What is taught about WW2 in schools? Is it something emphasised on, or is it discussed only marginally? Does it explore all viewpoints? Is their a rememberance day for the dead?

Danke.

I have two questions!

1)Why does everyone keep mentioning the war?

2)Venn ist das nurrrnstuck git und slottermeyer?




Nb. properly answering the latter question may result in widespread death.

I intend on moving to Germany, where precisely would you recommend is the best place or places to live in Germany?

:P

what does someone have to do to get a good service and good experience, with VFM of Oktoberfest ???

what does someone have to do to get a good service and good experience, with VFM of Oktoberfest ???
speak German, be a German :)
Or if you aren't German, look cute and pretend you're i.e. Swedish. Worked for me (well, haven't really experienced Oktoberfest, but been in the country few times)

speak German, be a German :)
Or if you aren't German, look cute and pretend you're i.e. Swedish. Worked for me (well, haven't really experienced Oktoberfest, but been in the country few times)
so you think if you admit your finnish(no not +ed :D ) you will be treated worse than a swedish guy?

what does someone have to do to get a good service and good experience, with VFM of Oktoberfest ???
Have alot of money so you can hire a beerhall just for yourself. And pay for the good experience by the hour.:p

would somone please tell me what german chocolate is like.

would somone please tell me what german chocolate is like.
It tastes like chocolate.

Can you provide a recipe to help me reproduce the optimal taste of sauer kraut?

It tastes like chocolate.

is it any better than british chocolate?

also what is typical German Quisine?

2) What do you think of Konigsberg [Kaliningrad] and Russia's shoddy treatment of it? Do you consider it essentially 'German' land, as it has been German populated since the 700's even though it was cleared of Germans in early 1945?

In fact the North of former Eastern Prussia (now the district of Kaliningrad) is not populated by Germans any more but by Russians. So it is historically german territory, but now russian and there is neither need nor legitimation to change it.

3) What do you think about the practice of the German government not having the national anthem sung in full at events where it would be in other countries? 'Deutschland Uber Alles' describes Germany as being from the 'Maas to Memel', and from 'Etsch to Belt', which I suppose is almost stating sovereignity over parts of Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Lithuania and Konigsberg, and I think this is why it is not sung.

To compare, the national anthem of the UK (being England, Wales, Scotland and Ulster) describes killing rebellious Scots, and the national anthem of France is very militaristic:

It seems like a case of German 'over-apologising' all over again. I suppose a lot of people would be dead against Germany ever becoming bold and proud again, but I'm very much in favour of it - its not like they're going to invade anyone again.

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles is not the german national anthem. The anthem is only the third verse of the "Lied der Deutschen" (Song of the Germans):

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland,
Danach lasst uns alle streben
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand.
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand.
Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland.

or in English

Unity and justice and liberty
For the german fatherland:
Let us all strive after this
Fraternally with heart and hand.
Unity and justice and liberty
Are the pledge of fortune.
Flourish in the glamour of this fortune,
Flourish, german fatherland.

When in 1841 the Lied der Deutschen with its first verse Deutschland, Deutschland über alles was written, it was an appeal for the unification of the about 40 independent states in Germany (the Austrian Empire, the kingdoms of Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Wurttemberg and Hannover, the grand duchies of Oldenburg, Baden, Hessen, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Saxony-Weimar, several duchies and principalties and the four independent cities of Frankfurt, Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck. Maas, Memel, Etsch and Belt were landmarks for the frontiers of the German Confederation. The Maas river in the west still marks the german-dutch frontier. The Belt is the strait between the german Fehmarn and the danish Lolland. The Memel river marked the frontier between Eastern Prussia (now the russian district of Kaliningrad) and Russia / (now Lithuania). And the Etch (Adige) was the southernmost german river in Southern Tyrol.

This text wasn't any more actual (but rather popular as republican anthem) when in 1922 it became the national anthem of the German republic as Germany and Austria had definitely separated in 1866/71. It was abused by the Nazi regime to legitimate the annexion of Austria and Western Poland. That's why in 1952 chancellor Adenauer and president Heuss decided that only the third verse of the Lied der Deutschen shall be the anthem of the (provisional) Federal Republic of (Western) Germany. In 1990 chancellor Kohl and president von Weizsäcker confirmed this third verse as national anthem of the reunified Germany.

So you have to differentiate between the Lied der Deutschen in whole which may be sung, but not in official occasions and its third verse which is the national anthem.

so you think if you admit your finnish(no not +ed :D ) you will be treated worse than a swedish guy?
Well well. If I admit I'm Finnish the talk often turns into WW2 and you don't want that to happen when you're trying to have fun. But you said a Swedish guy and as I'm female I think the answer is no. I would be treated better even if I would admit I'm Finnish(ed) :)

is it any better than british chocolate?
Honestly. I wouldn't know. I'm not even sure theres something like German chocolate. As most chocolate and chocolate bars in Germany seem to be connected one way or the other to Nestle. The evil Swiss chocolate manufacturer.

also what is typical German Quisine?
Typical German? Eeeh..that depends on where you are. A speciality from Hamburg for exampel would be labskaus. The word comes from the English lobs-cou(r)se. Labskaus is a traditionell sailors dish.
500 gram potatoes. Mash them.
Ca. 300 g (Anyone know how to translate: Pökelfleisch) Corned Beef or other canned beef.
One big onion.
Ca. 100 g red patches from the glass.
Ca. 100 g bacon (don't be cheap when you add this). ;)
Salz und Pfeffer darf natürlich nicht fehlen.
A couple of fried eggs for on top.
A rollmops, for everyone. if you like fish that is.
Spiced cucumbers

Mash the potatoes
Cutt the bacon and onions and vapor them till they are a bit glassy and then add the corned beef. Let it lightly frie. Not to much.
Cutt the red patches and mix them with the mashed potatoes and the rest.
Add some spices if you like.
Frie some eggs. Serve the whole thing with the eggs and the rollmops and pickles. And don't forget a beer!!!!
http://img49.exs.cx/img49/7158/0244.jpg
I know it looks kinda scary. ;) But it tastes great.

http://img49.exs.cx/img49/7158/0244.jpg

I'm sorry about this, but that looks like it was vomited onto a plate and had some crap thrown on top of it.

But i would eat it if i was offered some-it's rude to turn down food.

I'm sorry about this, but that looks like it was vomited onto a plate and had some crap thrown on top of it.
:D Thats what most people say when they see labskaus the first time. :D
But let me just say this. King Fahd of Saudi Arabia has this stuff flown in for him from Hamburg.

Ich habe Sauerkraut in meine Lederhosen!
Du hast ein Gügelschreiber in dein Arschloch!

Why we always learn THE most important phrases in other languages?

Du hast ein Gügelschreiber in dein Arschloch!
Whats a Gügelschreiber?

All the ask the dutch questions are fun, and all the ask a brit questions are just a bunch of brits talking to themselves.


People are asking the germans serious historical and geopolitical stuff. Why is this?

Ich kenne einfachen Deutschen, den Sie denken?

All the ask the dutch questions are fun, and all the ask a brit questions are just a bunch of brits talking to themselves.


People are asking the germans serious historical and geopolitical stuff. Why is this?
Because we're such intelligent and interesting people. Not so superficial like the others. :D

No. It is debatable how the holocaust happened. It is a widely known saying that the victor writes history, so the history we are being taught may have happened like this or not. While I do not deny that the Holocaust happened, it is questionable how exactly it happened due to the loss of a lot of documents and very little genuine documentation from the time due to the "de-nazification" of Germany after WW2 and the destruction of a lot of cities, resulting in the loss of many documents.

Besides this, I doubt that Hitler would have had to steal the gold coins of jews. Germany was not *that* poor ;)

You stupid little person! Stop trying to pretent you know anything about Germany! I don't care if you live there or not. You are only showing a complete ignorance of recent German history. Get back to school!

You stupid little person! Stop trying to pretent you know anything about Germany! I don't care if you live there or not. You are only showing a complete ignorance of recent German history. Get back to school!

I thought he was carefully putting some interesting points. You sound a bit rabid.

Because we're such intelligent and interesting people. Not so superficial like the others. :D


If you read Maupassant (19th Century French dude) he has a stereotype of germans that is really cute - the german as overweight, soft, thoughtful, peaceful philosopher. Not so efficient or humourless.

Whats a Gügelschreiber?
I don't know how to write it :D a pen, like BIC

You stupid little person! Stop trying to pretent you know anything about Germany! I don't care if you live there or not. You are only showing a complete ignorance of recent German history. Get back to school!
Then why don't you pretend you know anything bout Germany and enlighten us?

You stupid little person! Stop trying to pretent you know anything about Germany! I don't care if you live there or not. You are only showing a complete ignorance of recent German history. Get back to school!
Why are you so angry? I think all the things he wrote are actually true. What's your point? He's not denying the holocaust or anything like that.

If you read Maupassant (19th Century French dude) he has a stereotype of germans that is really cute - the german as overweight, soft, thoughtful, peaceful philosopher. Not so efficient or humourless.
Well, Germany is also called the land of poets and thinkers. But seing how Germany's school system has declined in recent years that may be a thing of the past.

I have a question - did the Nazi program against disabled people work? I mean that as far as I understand it, the nazis tried to prevent the disabled and mentally ill from breeding. Did it work? Are there now fewer mentally ill and disabled people in Germany than in other european countries?

During WWII would you have supported Germany, the USA/UK, or the USSR?

Now i have been to germany ( bopard, a small village along the rhine ) and how many of you really wear a lederhosen (BE HONEST) and it better be alot

Okay, before I ask my question, I'm just going to say I am British, but I am a German at heart. I am particularly interested in German football, and was wondering what the general view of my favourite team Arminia Bielefeld is over there.

How much of the Wall of Berlin still exists?
Nothing - at least not where it used to stand. You have to go to a museum. Though I have a pice of it at home.
Parts of the wall are now all around the world. Recently I saw one segment of the wall in Cape Town at BMW.

Nothing - at least not where it used to stand. You have to go to a museum. Though I have a pice of it at home.
Parts of the wall are now all around the world. Recently I saw one segment of the wall in Cape Town at BMW.
You live in Berlin? Oh the jealousy... :( love the city

Do Germans still have an obsession with towels and sunbeds?

How do you feel about Austria?
Good. There only was a problem when they exported Hitler to us.

You live in Berlin?
No, but I´ve been there several times since 1989 (when the wall still stood, when in fell and many times afterwards - so I know the changes which are great).

Do you believe that the holocaust was really the biggest mugging in history?

What I suppose i'm asking is this:

Do you think Hitler's motivation was to steal the gold coins from under the yamukas of all the jews he murdered?

Could this have been how he funded his war effort?

I think that that makes him twice as bad as before... a genocidal murderer and a petty thief.
Actually he received a ton of funding from George W Bush's grand dad who had funneled the money through banks to support the Nazi war cause. I will find a link cause I know I'll be berated for saying this....

Does Kreutzburg (sp) still exist? One hell of a place in Berlin..ahh the good old days.

What do Germans think of Rainer Werner Fassbinder's films?

I have a few questions:
1) What do you think of Anschluss? [Austro-German political unification]. I don't mean the historical 1938 Anschluss, just the idea in general. I'd go so far as to say the Austrian national identity is no further removed from the German 'norm' as, say, a Bavarian.
While in Austria in February, I spoke to my ski instructor about the idea of Anschluss and he was very much in favour of it. He also condemned the EU, and declared Austria was a false nation... extremist or general Austrian opinion?.
It is a minority opinion. Though the nationalists in Austria are actually very often german nationalists.
The idea of a common state failed actually in 1848/49 when the national assembly favoured the small German solution. Prussia (north-east Germany) and Austria can´t be unified in my view. Though south Germany and Austria are more close.
I don´t favour it: last time we let an Austrian ruling the country it ended in desaster.


2) What do you think of Konigsberg [Kaliningrad] and Russia's shoddy treatment of it? Do you consider it essentially 'German' land, as it has been German populated since the 700's even though it was cleared of Germans in early 1945?.
Most of the territories actually became part of Poland.
Those territories belong to the national and cultural heritage but not to the German state. Their removal could be seen as a kind of reparation towards those countries.
It is not German land any more. By the way: the time of the so-called Eastern colonisation was from the 11 th to the 15 th century. But 600-900 years many of those territories belonged to german states.


3) What do you think about the practice of the German government not having the national anthem sung in full at events where it would be in other countries? 'Deutschland Uber Alles' describes Germany as being from the 'Maas to Memel', and from 'Etsch to Belt', which I suppose is almost stating sovereignity over parts of Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Poland, Lithuania and Konigsberg, and I think this is why it is not sung.
To compare, the national anthem of the UK (being England, Wales, Scotland and Ulster) describes killing rebellious Scots, and the national anthem of France is very militaristic:?.
I think this practise is right. After all: is it common to sing all phrases of the American or British national anthem?
The third phrase is and should be considered the official anthem only.



It seems like a case of German 'over-apologising' all over again. I suppose a lot of people would be dead against Germany ever becoming bold and proud again, but I'm very much in favour of it - its not like they're going to invade anyone again.
Then you have to work harder to destroy the EU. Than we have to do that. But given the situation in Europe that would most likely be negative for all since it would mean the collapse of the EU which serves all through a common market. As a result a British-Polish alliance would rival with a Franco-German alliance.

Does Kreutzburg (sp) still exist? One hell of a place in Berlin..ahh the good old days.
Yes, if you mean Kreuzberg. It's still a district in Berlin, but it may have been melded together with some of the others recently.

Does Kreutzburg (sp) still exist? One hell of a place in Berlin..ahh the good old days.
You mean Kreuzberg. Yes, it does. Today Berlin-Kreuzberg is the biggest Turkish settlement outside Turkey.

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American :) )

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American :) )
Berlin with München (Munich) as a close second

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American :) )
I´ve to say Frankfurt. Well, I´m from Frankfurt.
But aside that I would say Berlin.

Is it true that the Germans have a strong work ethnic, or is it a pro-German stereotype?
It used to be that way in the past. There was actually a decline of that - unfortunately.
Originaly that was by the way an assumption that was made about the Prussians. Well, and the Prussians (originally from the north-east) united the country in 1871 under their hegemony.
In 1945 the history of Prussia ended.
Though that assumption remained - especially when the "Wirtschaftswunder (economic miracle) happened in West Germany in the 1950s and 1960s. Due to that the country became the third biggest economy of the world - which it still is by the way.

I think English spellings are always sensible. Wannabe sophisticates are a bunch of tools. That said, I've never been to Germany but Berlin sounds like the best city in Germany. The only German place I've been to is Zurich which was pretty nice.

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American :) )

But you don't say Deutschland, do you? Stick with Cologne - everyone (Germans included) knows where you mean, and you don't have to wrestle with umlauts (soon to be an Olympic sport).

But you don't say Deutschland, do you? Stick with Cologne - everyone (Germans included) knows where you mean, and you don't have to wrestle with umlauts (soon to be an Olympic sport).
Why not: many languages have taken over English words: Why not the other way around once.
There is more than Kindergarten, Blitzkrieg, Gesundheit, Schadenfreude and Angst.

What is the general German sentiment, or rather their views, on America and/or "The West"? I'm talking about a broad, popular viewpoint among the German public.

Is it true that the Germans have a strong work ethnic, or is it a pro-German stereotype?
You can see it either way: I see it as neutral. A strong work ethics can be used for good or evil.
Though it is rather seen as positive: as one of the prussian virtues which became German virtues.

I heard this story from my history teacher in high school about the Germans being a law abiding and orderly people. He was in Germany and there was a riot after a soccer game where the hooligans were running around setting cars on fire and making general chaos. The mob was running towards a public garden where they saw a sign that said "No treading on grass". The hooligans immediately and in an orderly fashioned lined up to run on the sidewalks so as to not disobey that sign.

What is the general German sentiment, or rather their views, on America and/or "The West"? I'm talking about a broad, popular viewpoint among the German public.
After World War II Germany (West) became part of "the West". Germanys long way into the west is a book written by a german historian about the development of the Federal Republic of Germany (founded in 1949).
The government pushed in that direction due to the threat by the Soviet Union. The Berlin blocade (1948) and the Soviet repression of a rebellion against communists rule in East Germany (a massive rebellion which demanded first social things and later free elections and the reunification) on June 17, 1953 (which was celebrated as day of German unity in West Germany till the reunification, since then October 3, 1990 has taken that place) pushed public opinion for an alliance with "the west" (meaning France, Britain and the US). The US was seen the most positive out of the three. France used to be the arch-enemy. The US had rejected that. And in 1948 it saved Berlin from the Soviet blocade.
So, there was a very strong pro-american sentiment in West Germany. Especially JFK was very popular.
The weakened a bit at the end of the 1960s (1968s). The students protested against American Vietnam policy but also against the establishment and the older people. Sometimes it was even common to denounce or older people as Nazi.
None the less of that protest I think the general perception of a majority remained rather positive, though became more and more critical. The American support for the reunification was welcomed.
After 9/11 there was a lot of sympathy towards the United States.
Most people considered the relationship as very good given the cooperation in Afghanistan. That changed with the Iraq dispute dramatically.
Today the opinion is very negative towards the US government. An overwhelming majority hopes for a change in the US policy.
The view of France has improved over the decades though. Whether that is right or wrong I leave open, put that is the general mood.

Well well. If I admit I'm Finnish the talk often turns into WW2 and you don't want that to happen when you're trying to have fun. now this is interesting! i guess no one apologies to you, for finnland beeing an ally and such, so what do they usually say?
But you said a Swedish guy and as I'm female I think the answer is no. my best apologies to you milady but how should i know your female?
;)

But you don't say Deutschland, do you? Stick with Cologne - everyone (Germans included) knows where you mean, and you don't have to wrestle with umlauts (soon to be an Olympic sport).
In an "Ask A German" thread where questions are about Germany, it is permissible to ask questions in German - if you know what you are talking ;)

Do NOT try to speak German if you are not at least 90% fluent in it - everything else sounds funny.

Using German names for German cities is allowed. We "suffer" from americanisms in our language as is, and I am proud of my German language and refuse to see it watered down with English :)

Can you provide a recipe to help me reproduce the optimal taste of sauer kraut?
Sorry, production of sauerkraut is a national secret :p
Here's another traditionally German meal though:
http://www.marions-kochbuch.com/recipe/0283.htm

Here's a recipe for German sauerkraut. Though I cannot tell whether or not it is correct. I prefer eating pizza :)

http://www.razzledazzlerecipes.com/quantity/german-sauerkraut.htm

Wie Gehts?

What is taught about WW2 in schools? Is it something emphasised on, or is it discussed only marginally? Does it explore all viewpoints? Is their a rememberance day for the dead?

Danke.
WW2 as significant part of our history is being tought in history classes quite intensively. In a period of 1 month or 2 pupils are taught the circumstances which led to WW2, how Hitler came to power, how the jews and other minorities suffered, how Germany attacked several nations, how the Wehrmacht was defeated, how the allies split Germany in 4 zones etc.

The entire politicial spectrum of the pre-WW2, WW2 and post-WW2 era is being taught usually... though this depends on the school system I think. I was in High School (Gymnasium) and learned much about it.

There are several rememberance days for the dead of WW2 and everything else around WW2.

do you know mettbrötchen? http://www.thomas-langens.de/rezepte/img/mettbroetchen1.jpg

its a speciality from the rhineland. very tasty.

WW2 as significant part of our history is being tought in history classes quite intensively. In a period of 1 month or 2 pupils are taught the circumstances which led to WW2, how Hitler came to power, how the jews and other minorities suffered, how Germany attacked several nations, how the Wehrmacht was defeated, how the allies split Germany in 4 zones etc.

The entire politicial spectrum of the pre-WW2, WW2 and post-WW2 era is being taught usually... though this depends on the school system I think. I was in High School (Gymnasium) and learned much about it.
like i told you before its not always like this. sometimes its holocaust-only for several months.

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American )
Hamburg.

I heard this story from my history teacher in high school about the Germans being a law abiding and orderly people. He was in Germany and there was a riot after a soccer game where the hooligans were running around setting cars on fire and making general chaos. The mob was running towards a public garden where they saw a sign that said "No treading on grass". The hooligans immediately and in an orderly fashioned lined up to run on the sidewalks so as to not disobey that sign.
:D LMAO :D

Do you think that Germany should be forgiven for its crimes and that we should forget about that dark time period?
I think crimes a done by individuals, not by a collective.
Therefore they can never be a collective guilt.
Otherwise you could end up with statements like: Should the whites be forgiven for slavery.
I wonder why the same question isn´t asked for Japan for that matter in respect towards its policy especially towards Korea or China from 1910-1945?
Or whether Russia should be forgiven its imperialistic policy from its early times till the end of the Soviet Union - with the darkest period under Stalin, which caused several million deaths especially among non-Russian citizens (like the Chechens for example - but also towards many others).
Or whether the Hutu should be forgiven their massacres on the Tutsi (which caused the death of 1,5 million people within a few months in 1994). Or whether the Turks should be forgiven the genocide on the Armenians during World War I which caused the death of 2 million Armenians.
Does that make the events during World War II less worse? Certainly not.
But I wonder why other genocides almost get no attention though compared to that one!

So: What is so interesting about us? We are just a small country at the centre of Europe. We are not that interesting. So, get over it.

Generaly speaking, by touch.

Well, I didn't mean it in that sense, soo... Wie gehts?

Well, I didn't mean it in that sense, soo... Wie gehts?
:p I knew that.

Well, if I were to ask you how do you feel about a subject, could I use:

Wie fühlst du (oder fühlen sie) am THEME HIER?

Wissen sie jede Volk mit der Nachname "Kuklinski", "Hoschett" oder "Hoschette"?

Well, if I were to ask you how do you feel about a subject, could I use:

Wie fühlst du (oder fühlen sie) am THEME HIER?
Eeh..no. It would have to be:
Was finden/halten sie von diesem thema?
Or it would cause massconfusion when everyone tries to figure out how to fondle an issue. :D

Eeh..no. It would have to be:
Was finden/halten sie von diesem thema?
Or it would cause massconfusion when everyone tries to figure out how to fondle an issue. :D
You have to work yourself on the issue: capitalised - not capitalised. As you know we do the first much more often than it is common in English or other languages.

You have yourself work on the issue: capitalised - not capitalised. As you now we though the first much more often than in English or other languages.
Eeeeh...was?

Eeh..no. It would have to be:
Was finden/halten sie von diesem thema?
It is: Was halten Sie von diesem Thema?
finden doesn´t make sense and you missed the capitalisation of the substantives.

It is: Was halten Sie von diesem Thema?
finden doesn´t make sense and you missed the capitalisation of the substantives.
Was finden Sie von diesem oder jenem ist meines Wissens nach richtig.

Wenn man schon was findet, dann nur "an" oder "am". Nicht von oder vom ;)

Was finden Sie von diesem oder jenem ist meines Wissens nach richtig.
Das glaube ich nicht. Ich wollte aber hauptsächlich auf die fehlende Großschreibung hinweisen!

Das glaube ich nicht. Ich wollte aber hauptsächlich auf die fehlende Großschreibung hinweisen!
Kann man weglassen nach der rechtsschreibereform. Hat man mir wenigstens gesagt.

Kann man weglassen nach der rechtsschreibereform. Hat man mir wenigstens gesagt.
Genau das stimmt gerade nicht. Nach der Rechtschreibreform wird sogar mehr Groß geschrieben als vorher: z.B. Angst und Bange (anstelle von angst und bange) oder im Allgemeinen (anstelle von: im allgemeinen).
Vollkommen konfus sind allerdings die Regeln zur Getrennt- und Zusammenschreibung. So muss (anstelle von muß) man ab sofort sitzen bleiben schreiben (für sitzenbleiben (in der Schule)). Oder auch allein stehend (für alleinstehend) - aber das soll jetzt optional sein.
Oder: die Eisen verarabeitende Industrie (anstelle: die eisenverarbeitende Industrie).
Da haben einige Sprachwissenschafter gemeinsam mit den Bürokraten von der KMK (Kultusministerkonferenz) ganze Arbeit geleistet.
Das wieder irgend wann ins Lot zu bringen wird Jahrzehnte dauern.
Das kommt davon, wenn sich die Politik in alles einmischt und regeln will. Hat man ja auch in der DDR gesehen wohin das führt. Der Staat muß sich endlich mehr zurückziehen - und Freiraum lassen für den Markt und die Selbstentfaltung des Einzelnen. Ansonsten kommt Deutschland nicht mehr auf die Beine. Es gab da in letzter Zeit einige Schritte in die richtige Richtung. Aber es muß mehr getan werden: Deregulierung - Weg mit dem Ladenschluß, Steuerreform, Reform der Sozialsystem (Kopfpauschale - aber selbst eine Bürgerversicherung wäre trotz all ihrer Fehler (wenn sie einigermaßen ökonomisch konzipiert wäre) - besser als das gegenwärtige System.
Es ist doch das gegenwärtige System und die bisherige Politik der letzten drei Jahrzehnte die stufenweise zur Krise geführt haben.
Es ist geradezu grotesk die Reformen - die gegen diese Entwicklung eingeleitet werden - zu bekämpfen.
Und die meisten der Reformen sind doch noch nicht mal in Kraft. Allein Hartz IV hat eine Umsetzungsphase von 2,5 Jahren, die am 1. Januar 2005 beginnt. Sofortige Wirkung zu erwarten - oder gar bevor sie in Kraft tritt ist doch völlig verfehlt. Es bleibt hier noch viel zu tun. Nicht weniger Reformen sind nötig, sondern mehr - ansonsten kollabiert das Sozialsystem im Zuge der demographischen Entwicklung.
Desto länger man das jetzt aufschiebt, desto schwerer und härter wird der Reformprozeß in der Zukunft. Ich sehe die Union hier im Prinzip auf den richtigen Weg.
Die SPD ist zu zögerlich und zu gespalten um wirklich das Land grundlegend reformieren zu können. Daher halte ich einen Wechsel 2006 wirklich für erforderlich.

Genau das stimmt gerade nicht. Nach der Rechtschreibreform wird sogar mehr Groß geschrieben als vorher: z.B. Angst und Bange (anstelle von angst und bange) oder im Allgemeinen (anstelle von: im allgemeinen).
Vollkommen konfus sind allerdings die Regeln zur Getrennt- und Zusammenschreibung. So muss (anstelle von muß) man ab sofort sitzen bleiben schreiben (für sitzenbleiben (in der Schule)). Oder auch allein stehend (für alleinstehend) - aber das soll jetzt optional sein.
Oder: die Eisen verarabeitende Industrie (anstelle: die eisenverarbeitende Industrie).
Da haben einige Sprachwissenschafter gemeinsam mit den Bürokraten von der KMK (Kultusministerkonferenz) ganze Arbeit geleistet.
Das wieder irgend wann ins Lot zu bringen wird Jahrzehnte dauern.
Das kommt davon, wenn sich die Politik in alles einmischt und regeln will. Hat man ja auch in der DDR gesehen wohin das führt. Der Staat muß sich endlich mehr zurückziehen - und Freiraum lassen für den Markt und die Selbstentfaltung des Einzelnen. Ansonsten kommt Deutschland nicht mehr auf die Beine. Es gab da in letzter Zeit einige Schritte in die richtige Richtung. Aber es muß mehr getan werden: Deregulierung - Weg mit dem Ladenschluß, Steuerreform, Reform der Sozialsystem (Kopfpauschale - aber selbst eine Bürgerversicherung wäre trotz all ihrer Fehler (wenn sie einigermaßen ökonomisch konzipiert wäre) - besser als das gegenwärtige System.
Es ist doch das gegenwärtige System und die bisherige Politik der letzten drei Jahrzehnte die stufenweise zur Krise geführt haben.
Es ist geradezu grotesk die Reformen - die gegen diese Entwicklung eingeleitet werden - zu bekämpfen.
Und die meisten der Reformen sind doch noch nicht mal in Kraft. Allein Hartz IV hat eine Umsetzungsphase von 2,5 Jahren, die am 1. Januar 2005 beginnt. Sofortige Wirkung zu erwarten - oder gar bevor sie in Kraft tritt ist doch völlig verfehlt. Es bleibt hier noch viel zu tun. Nicht weniger Reformen sind nötig, sondern mehr - ansonsten kollabiert das Sozialsystem im Zuge der demographischen Entwicklung.
Desto länger man das jetzt aufschiebt, desto schwerer und härter wird der Reformprozeß in der Zukunft. Ich sehe die Union hier im Prinzip auf den richtigen Weg.
Die SPD ist zu zögerlich und zu gespalten um wirklich das Land grundlegend reformieren zu können. Daher halte ich einen Wechsel 2006 wirklich für erforderlich.
Na.. jetzt sind wir von der (zugegebenermassen unnötigen) Rechtschreibreform zu Politpropaganda gekommen. Hörns doch mal auf mit dem politischen Zeugs. Dazu war der Thread nicht gedacht.

zugegebenermassen .

Das ist ein langes Wort, aber ich habe ein comic und dorin begrust ein man ein ander mit:

"Hello, Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber" (auf die Eisenbahn). Aber ich weiss das er auch etwas ist mit Donaudampfshiffahrerkaleunt usw. :)

Das ist ein langes Wort, aber ich habe ein comic und dorin begrust ein man ein ander mit:

"Hello, Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber" (auf die Eisenbahn). Aber ich weiss das er auch etwas ist mit Donaudampfshiffahrerkaleunt usw. :)
Das heißt: Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapitänkajütenputzer.

Das ist ein langes Wort, aber ich habe ein comic und dorin begrust ein man ein ander mit:

"Hello, Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber" (auf die Eisenbahn). Aber ich weiss das er auch etwas ist mit Donaudampfshiffahrerkaleunt usw. :)
Someone who is Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber (probably doesnt exist) would be someone who is an advanced rank (Ober-) on rail staff switching switches back and forth at a rail junction:)

Someone who is Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber (probably doesnt exist) would be someone who is an advanced rank (Ober-) on rail staff switching switches back and forth at a rail junction:)

I know what it means, have asked it at a German friend before.Existed in the past or not,it is a nice word.

What about the long words starting with (Uber)Donaudampfshiffahrt...usw, I know you must find one.

Ich bitte dich, gebt uns eine :)

Das heißt: Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapitänkajütenputzer.


Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapitänkajütenputzermützenabzeichen

Donaudampfschifffahrtsgesellschaftkapitänkajütenputzermützenabzeichen
Grosshartig :D aber when er tot ist wurde das kostlich sein auf sein Grabstein.

As an Austrian I can say that this is an extremist opinion. Although Austria is a very small country most of her citizens are proud of their country. But this attitude has developed only after WW II.

Between the two World Wars the idea of a united german Reich had many supporters. Austrians were used to live in the huge Austro-Hungarian empire that was reduced to current Austria after WW I. That was a shock and many didn't believe Austria could make a living on her own and longed for the Anschluss. That made it very easy for Hitler to annex Austria in 1938.

Today many citizens are so used to Austria being a souvereign state that they do not realized that we have given a part of our souvereignity over to the EU and have to find compromizes with 24 other countries and do lobbying in Brussels.

The Bavarian and Austrian identity are very similar and both different from e.g. Saxony. But Bavaria has been part of Germany for 80+ years whereas Austria has been a souvereign state for that period.

Thanks for that! Good reply, I thought my ski-instructor was a little bit on the extreme by declaring Austria a 'false-state'...

Austria was originally colonised by Bavarian settlers from the year 700 on. And again after pushing the Magyars out of the Donau area in 955. Back then it was part of the Ostmark.

That'll explain the similarities between the Bavarians and the Austrians... Did you know after WW1 France wanted Austria and Bavaria to unite with the Habsburgs as King (as a French vassal... I'm not sure how that would have worked with France being a Republic and all). They also wanted the Rhineland and North West to be independant but under what name I don't know. It would leave 'Greater Prussia' as purely an Eastern power, leaving them to scrap with Russia for decades without involving France in another war. Interesting 'eh?

well, germany is a federation of several little "countrys". 16 to be exact. when they first came together no one really considered themself "german", but bavarian, prussian, slesvigan aso.
this has changed and the federation like character of this country isnt up to date if you ask me. (why form little countrys inside a big one when no one feels like hes a citizen of the small?)
austria is one of these small countrys and as much a part of germany as any other small country here is. they just thought its a nice idea to create their own country. thats up to them, bavaria thinks about this too from time to time. i would like it if austria comes back to germany. it would give everyone greater influence in the world.
if its a general austrian opinion to reunite with germany i cant say, im no austrian. but im very much in favor of this idea, if they want to. if not its ok too.

The Federation seems a little out-dated now there doesn't seem to be as much separating the states as their once was. It was the 'liberal-capitalist West', the 'aristocratic-conservative East' and the Catholic South dividing the country before it united in the first place, but with the advent of (lasting) democracy this isn't really a divisive factor. If I was a German, I'd want to abolish the state system and devolve a lot of the powers down to the local councils, and the more important stuff could be taken over by the national government. But with more and more power heading to Brussels, there doesn't really seem to be much point.

this is a very hard question. if you think of history, there is little doubt that its german land, as well as the land that now belongs to poland.
but the german population there was either chased away or murdered. the basic character, culture and language there that once was german is now polish or russian, together with the people who live there. i think it would be wrong to claim these lands back. we could as well claim the moskau! its just as foreign as Königsberg is today.
its a very sad and brutal chapter of (mostly) polish history that theyve yet to step up to. guesses are that they moved or murdered around 12 mil people.

Was it the Poles? I always thought it was the Red Army. I've always thought well of the Poles, as a nation they have suffered more than most over the centuries with the partitioning, WW1 being fought on their soil, WW2 and the Holocaust, and it doesn't sound like a 'Polish' thing to do that to 12 million people. They've always appeared to be... honourable. If your right, my opinion of them will undoubtadly change.

its a case of political correctness, and over-apologizing yes. but i think it would be a little too rude to include this part again. i can very good imagine the media echo in uk and usa when we would include it again. "germany is at it again!""hitler is risen from his grave""when will they attack?" we can live without it, it isnt like we sell the Brandenburg Gate while not singing it...

Yeah, you're right I suppose. Its just a catchy tune. :D

its very common for our politicans, and the older generation in general, to over-apologize. heck you even notice that in england, so this says a lot! you know what i think? that in the minds of the older people, hitler isnt dead. they keep him alive through their hatred, and thats why they think they still have to apologize in every way for him.
and some people, almost only americans, shout nazi at every opportunity and that strenghens this old farts in their believe to feel guilty for something they havent done. when this persons die i *really* hope we can leave ww2 in the history books and finally move on.

"All Germans are Nazis!!!!1111shiftoneone"... that what you mean? It really sucks don't it? I have German cousins and when they came over to England to visit me they got called Nazis by some local kids and they were pretty upset by it.

and yes, why should germany start any war? there is no reason for it.

Even if Germany wanted to, it couldn't. Wars are no longer won by 10 million nineteen year olds with fixed bayonets. France has nukes.

In fact the North of former Eastern Prussia (now the district of Kaliningrad) is not populated by Germans any more but by Russians. So it is historically german territory, but now russian and there is neither need nor legitimation to change it.

If anything, it should have been split between Poland and Lithuania in the first place rather than populated by Russians.

When in 1841 the Lied der Deutschen with its first verse Deutschland, Deutschland über alles was written, it was an appeal for the unification of the about 40 independent states in Germany (the Austrian Empire, the kingdoms of Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Wurttemberg and Hannover, the grand duchies of Oldenburg, Baden, Hessen, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Saxony-Weimar, several duchies and principalties and the four independent cities of Frankfurt, Hamburg, Bremen and Lübeck. Maas, Memel, Etsch and Belt were landmarks for the frontiers of the German Confederation. The Maas river in the west still marks the german-dutch frontier. The Belt is the strait between the german Fehmarn and the danish Lolland. The Memel river marked the frontier between Eastern Prussia (now the russian district of Kaliningrad) and Russia / (now Lithuania). And the Etch (Adige) was the southernmost german river in Southern Tyrol.

This text wasn't any more actual (but rather popular as republican anthem) when in 1922 it became the national anthem of the German republic as Germany and Austria had definitely separated in 1866/71. It was abused by the Nazi regime to legitimate the annexion of Austria and Western Poland. That's why in 1952 chancellor Adenauer and president Heuss decided that only the third verse of the Lied der Deutschen shall be the anthem of the (provisional) Federal Republic of (Western) Germany. In 1990 chancellor Kohl and president von Weizsäcker confirmed this third verse as national anthem of the reunified Germany.

So you have to differentiate between the Lied der Deutschen in whole which may be sung, but not in official occasions and its third verse which is the national anthem.

I was going to call it 'Die Deutschlandlied', but more people would understand it as Deutschland Uber Alles. Even the full thing, besides the specific land references is far less militaristic or nationalist than the national anthems of a lot of other countries. Is it the first or second verse that specifies the frontiers? The one that doesn't could still be sung.

is it any better than british chocolate?


BETTER THAN CADBURY'S???? NEVER

Too much has happend in Earth's History, Hitler and his cruel gang where responsible for the 15 million dead jews. But that doesn't mean that all germans are bad. Hitler was a very evil person so where his close buddies, he should never been allowed to take control of germany that easy. Im not pionting direct to the allies (france, england, russia) but lets face it, its mostly the foult of the ones that later in 1945 proclaimed victory. After the first world war germany had allot of loans they still had to pay. The country was known bankrupt. To make things worst the allies from WW1 (france englan, russie the bigegst ones :) ) wanted to get allot of money from germany that already was totally bankrupt. Those allied wanted to let germany pay for all the damage and suffering they brought upon them.

1 dumb thing! France wanted to make sure they would be able to get allot of money from the germans. So that germany itself would know that they had lost the war. because of the rising debts the germans felt bad.. they didn't feel like germans. They thought that they had lost control of their nation. So there comes our monster.. Hitler.. first totally unknown but because of his prison time and his book becomming very popular. het told the germans that soon they would be able to be germans again and that they would be the most powerful nation in the world. He pointed towards the jews, they were the only real wealthy community in germany. and just like in the rennecainse (dunno how you spell it in english, im dutch) when the frence whiped out all aristrocrats they whiped out all jews. Hitler was a charismatic man with bad bad evil ideals. He lost the war. JEEJ!

But more bad things happend peeps.. in 1963 100 million chinees peeps died in 2 months time.. we learn about napoleon we learn about hitler. But we never even mensioned this terrible masacre. they died because of lack of food. But it could have been prevented by the communist government. Their leader later died.. and was honoured. He wanted to F*ck one virgin of 14/15 years old everyday. Its not the government its not nation.. its because the nation is in pain.. because of whatever.. just like in the USA now.. im not saying that there is gonne be a hitler there, but there's a good chance it will happen like i say so now. Lets pray not :D

Niels Erik

Was it the Poles? I always thought it was the Red Army. I've always thought well of the Poles, as a nation they have suffered more than most over the centuries with the partitioning, WW1 being fought on their soil, WW2 and the Holocaust, and it doesn't sound like a 'Polish' thing to do that to 12 million people. They've always appeared to be... honourable. If your right, my opinion of them will undoubtadly change.
yes the Red Army did a lot, most well known are probably the mass rapes of berlin.
the poles suffered a lot under the war, and that explains their reaction to some degree. i know a lot about this from my grandma. shes dead now but the storys she told were really terrible. they were afraid of the red army, but more of the polish mobs that seem to come out of nowhere and slaughter everyone. or the story about the tanks that mowed down all these people and then drived over all these wounded and injured... said she survived cause she pretended she was dead and was just lucky no tank rolled over her.
i dont make this up (sp?) out of nothing, really. it did happen.

"All Germans are Nazis!!!!1111shiftoneone"... that what you mean? It really sucks don't it? I have German cousins and when they came over to England to visit me they got called Nazis by some local kids and they were pretty upset by it. happened to me too in Nederlands once.

France has nukes. you overestimate nukes a bit. no country could use nukes, the answer would be too devastating. the wide spread effect of the nuke would also hit all neighbor countrys, and the radiation the whole world. no, no country would be so stupid to use a nuke.

If anything, it should have been split between Poland and Lithuania in the first place rather than populated by Russians.

Well, there isn't any polish or lithuanian population in the Kaliningrad district either. So it shall remain russian. Putin may also sell it to Poland, Lithuania or maybe the US, if he wants. But Germany has lost this territory, and - other than in Elsass-Lothringen, Northern Schleswig and even some areas in Silesia or Pomerania there is no german population left.

I was going to call it 'Die Deutschlandlied', but more people would understand it as Deutschland Uber Alles. Even the full thing, besides the specific land references is far less militaristic or nationalist than the national anthems of a lot of other countries. Is it the first or second verse that specifies the frontiers? The one that doesn't could still be sung.

The frontiers are in the first verse of the Deutschlandlied (in fact, it's not die, but das Deutschlandlied). The text is

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
Brüderlich zusammenhält.
Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt.
Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt.


The difficulty is to translate über, which is in general above, but here it's used in the sense of first of all. Even most Germans misunderstand this meaning by ignorance of the historical context.

Germany, Germany first of all,
First of all in the world,
As long as to its protection
It is fraternally united,
From the Maas to the Memel,
From the Etsch to the Belt.
Germany, Germany, first of all,
First of all in the world.


(The translation is certainly not perfect, but sufficient to understand, I hope.)

The second verse is more poetic than military.

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang,
Sollen in der Welt erhalten
Ihren alten schönen Klang,
Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
Unser ganzes Leben lang,
Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang.


German women, german loyalty,
German wine and german chant,
Shall in the world maintain,
Their old, fair repute,
To inspire us to precious action,
During all our lives,
German women, german loyalty,
German wine and german chant.


It was feared that edle Tat could be misunderstood as bellicose action. And indeed german loyalty hadn't a good reputation after WW II either. As the third verse was extremly descriptive for the situation of the divided Germany, Adenauer and Heuss decided to take only this verse as national anthem.

Well, there isn't any polish or lithuanian population in the Kaliningrad district either. So it shall remain russian. Putin may also sell it to Poland, Lithuania or maybe the US, if he wants. But Germany has lost this territory, and - other than in Elsass-Lothringen, Northern Schleswig and even some areas in Silesia or Pomerania there is no german population left..
There still is a portion of people of German decent left in Russia and in Central Asia (Kazakstan). Though since the 1990s everybody who can somehow claim any german decent in his ancestory tries to use that in order to migrate to Germany. There was the idea to either found a new Volga Republic (as it happened within the Soviet Union in the early 1920s - before it got dissolved by Stalin and after the war its population was sent to Siberia or Central Asia) or to settle the people to the Kaliningrad arrea. That was of course blocked by Russia.
Up until last year the Federal Republic was even banned to open a consulate over there. But due to the improved relations that changed.
Russia won´t sell Kaliningrad. It is going to use it in order to put pressure on the EU for economic concessions for Russia. If Russia takes over Belarus once - which is entirely possible, Belarus doesn´t have much of a seperate national identity, even its president - the dictator Lukaschenka - wants a kind of union with Russia, the Kaliningrad arrea would only be seperated by Lithuania and Poland from the rest of Russia.
This is really a problem and could develop into a very serious one if the development within Russia turns to be negative.
Things would habe been easier if the territory would have been entirely given to Poland (as Churchill suggested) and that not as much territory would habe been taken away from Germany.
That failed due to the Soviet stubborness, which wanted to go for more annections - even beyond the Hitler-Stalin pact line.
BTW: population of the Kaliningrad era before World War II: 2 million - almost entirely German. Today: 500,000 (mainly Russians).
That is a downfall. Kaliningrad is one of the poorest region in western Russia. Without it getting a special status by the EU it is going to be a problem field. On the other hand Russia can use it for its own benefit - as it is using the "minority problem" of Russians in the baltic state to put pressure on them and the EU.
And since the main oil and gas supplier of Europe is Russia (that is even more the case for those nations) we are in a way as dependent on Russia as they are on us.

Too much has happend in Earth's History, Hitler and his cruel gang where responsible for the 15 million dead jews.
:eek: Wow. Them dead Jews bread like rabbits. From 6 to 15 million.

now this is interesting! i guess no one apologies to you, for finnland beeing an ally and such, so what do they usually say?
my best apologies to you milady but how should i know your female?
;)
I think I heard the best comments from an elderly couple who were travelling in northern Finland. They asked why all the buildings were so new. Why wasn't there anything old left there.
Well...We had some German visitors here earlier. They kind of burnt 1/4 of our country when they left... :D The silence after that
Usually the conversation turns to Mannerheim and how we dealt with the wartime leaders afterwards. Germans know about our situation much better than any other nation in Europe.

And of course you could not know my gender, but why you assumed I'm male? I did say looking cute...it usually works better with girls :D

I have a question I'd like an educated German to answer.
During WW2, in regards to the Nazi's "Final Solution"...

Did the average German citizen know what was happening in the camps, or did they not care/ too afraid of retribution to ask?

I think I heard the best comments from an elderly couple who were travelling in northern Finland. They asked why all the buildings were so new. Why wasn't there anything old left there.
Well...We had some German visitors here earlier. They kind of burnt 1/4 of our country when they left... :D The silence after that
really? i cant imagine that to be true. there werent big parts of the german army fighting in finnland and as far as i know, they left peacefully when finnland switched sides. are you sure that it werent the soviets that burned everything? it sounds more like a thing they would do.

Usually the conversation turns to Mannerheim and how we dealt with the wartime leaders afterwards. Germans know about our situation much better than any other nation in Europe. yeah probably cause finnland is one of the few countrys in europe who know what it means to fight against the soviets...

And of course you could not know my gender, but why you assumed I'm male? I did say looking cute...it usually works better with girls :D
uh... your into girls?!? :confused:
i just guessed your male, cause almost everyone here is.

I have a question I'd like an educated German to answer.
During WW2, in regards to the Nazi's "Final Solution"...

Did the average German citizen know what was happening in the camps, or did they not care/ too afraid of retribution to ask?
first, the camps were of cause off-limits to citizens.

second, they probably didnt care very much, and had other things in mind with the daily bombings and such. (remember the holocaust started 41)

third, there were rumors about it going around about it, but no one thought it to be true. (serious, who would thought that something like this would really happen?) official the jews were moved into russia to do, whatever jews in russia do. and btw. this was the first plan anyway before it was changed to the final solution.

really? i cant imagine that to be true. there werent big parts of the german army fighting in finnland and as far as i know, they left peacefully when finnland switched sides. are you sure that it werent the soviets that burned everything? it sounds more like a thing they would do.

Oh yes I'm sure. Our countries were fighting against each other when Germans left Finland. Germans were still fighting against Russia in the north (also in Norway) when Finland and Russia had already stopped. Germans were loosing everywhere and for some reason (I've heard it but can't remember it) we burned a hospital full of German soldiers and obviously that wasn't a nice thing to do. Before that we did leant trains etc for you to get back to Germany. I don't what caused the conflict. And then Germans burned Lappland on their way to Germany. I believe we just wanted you out there as fast as possible.
I'm not very good with the history of WW2 and I'm ashamed of it. I think it should be basic knowledge.

lol this thread is getting silly.. he's an average german (i think lol) he can't answer all of these questions in detail and know everything about germany!

just as i can't speak for the whole of switzerland!

Alright I did some searching. Yes we fight Germans because it was insisted by Russian when we made peace with them. To get Germans out of the country as fast as possible. Germans left the southern Finland in time but most of them were located in Lappland where the fighting started in 1.10.1944. and by 27.4.1945 all Germans had left the country. They went to north (Norway) mining and burning all the way through.

lol this thread is getting silly.. he's an average german (i think lol) he can't answer all of these questions in detail and know everything about germany!

just as i can't speak for the whole of switzerland!
who says im average? im better looking and more intelligent than most! ;) :D

sure i dont know every detail, but my ww2 knowledge is quite good, and one can always try. :)
its just the matter of perspective. everyone sees the same things and thinks something different, so instead of thinking its fact, better think about it as a opinion. and i dont claim that my opinions are true, only that they are *my* opinions, and they are true for *me*. you have to decide for yourself what of it you take as truth.
"Meinungen sind wie Arschlöcher, jeder hat eins uns sie stinken alle genauso."

Alright I did some searching. Yes we fight Germans because it was insisted by Russian when we made peace with them. To get Germans out of the country as fast as possible. Germans left the southern Finland in time but most of them were located in Lappland where the fighting started in 1.10.1944. and by 27.4.1945 all Germans had left the country. They went to north (Norway) mining and burning all the way through.
ok then ive got to believe it.
i admire finnland a bit for its clever decision to make peace with the soviets before they get their foot on finnish soil. germany should have made the same before the soviets had the chance to do what they did...

So, if you have any questions about Germany and Germans feel free to ask them here.
If you play return to castle wolfenstien in germany whats the penalty if u are caught

If you play return to castle wolfenstien in germany whats the penalty if u are caught
nothing :D
its just not allowed to be sold. what you play is up to you, as long as your over 18. if your under 18 the police will tell it to your parents.

nothing :D
its just not allowed to be sold. what you play is up to you, as long as your over 18. if your under 18 the police will tell it to your parents.
Yeah.. damn thought police and censorship *shakes fist*

ok then ive got to believe it.
i admire finnland a bit for its clever decision to make peace with the soviets before they get their foot on finnish soil. germany should have made the same before the soviets had the chance to do what they did...
I think Finland handled the whole war quite well. Of course we lost huge parts of our country and some still want them back and we had to pay warcompensations to Russia (same amount as every eastern country which were invaded by Germans). But we managed to remain independent and that was quite an achievement. And we didn't have Russian troops in our country after the war as did all other eastern European countries.

I think Finland handled the whole war quite well. Of course we lost huge parts of our country and some still want them back and we had to pay warcompensations to Russia hm. when the soviet union broke down in 91, werent it a great chance to get this land back? they desperatly need money, and they still do. dont you think finnland could just buy this land back?
(same amount as every eastern country which were invaded by Germans). ahem it was more "retreated" by germans :D
But we managed to remain independent and that was quite an achievement. And we didn't have Russian troops in our country after the war as did all other eastern European countries.
yes and thats more than any other country managed that the soviets conquered. finnland even got good relations to the west during the cold war. its really impressive.

hm. when the soviet union broke down in 91, werent it a great chance to get this land back? they desperatly need money, and they still do. dont you think finnland could just buy this land back?

Maybe. But most of Finns really don't want those areas back anymore. Karelia and Petsamo (the largest areas) are very poor even in Russian's standarts. What would we do with empty forests. Sell extreme outdoor ventures to Germans? And I don't think they would really want to sell Karelia back, as it happens to be very close to St.Petersburg. Also they would loose the control (and constant money source) over an important water route from lake Finland to the Gulf of Finland.
Also Russian has still some very interesting leaders in duuma (?) like Vladimir Chirinovski (or perhaps Zhiri...) who want to invade Finland and all the Baltic countries... They keep us on our toes. :)

eh..lake district Finland (Saimaa)...not a lake called Finland... :D

I think English spellings are always sensible. Wannabe sophisticates are a bunch of tools. That said, I've never been to Germany but Berlin sounds like the best city in Germany. The only German place I've been to is Zurich which was pretty nice.

eeh.. Zürich is Swiss....

yes and thats more than any other country managed that the soviets conquered. finnland even got good relations to the west during the cold war. its really impressive.
But still. We own our independency to you. If Sovjet Union wouldn't had been so busy around Stalingrad we would have lost (a lot more).

So, if you have any questions about Germany and Germans feel free to ask them here.



How do you say "NO!! NO!!! Don't make me run!!! I am full of chocolate!!!" in German? :D

Maybe. But most of Finns really don't want those areas back anymore. Karelia and Petsamo (the largest areas) are very poor even in Russian's standarts. What would we do with empty forests. Sell extreme outdoor ventures to Germans? And I don't think they would really want to sell Karelia back, as it happens to be very close to St.Petersburg. Also they would loose the control (and constant money source) over an important water route from lake Finland to the Gulf of Finland. it was just an idea.
Also Russian has still some very interesting leaders in duuma (?) like Vladimir Chirinovski (or perhaps Zhiri...) who want to invade Finland and all the Baltic countries... They keep us on our toes. :)
von Clausewitz (i think it was him) once said "Peace is the time when you prepare yourself for the war to come". there is something to it. i think there will always be wars, its just human nature and the russians... well, they hardly change too. so its even more important to remain strong, you never know what the future may bring.

Das ist ein langes Wort, aber ich habe ein comic und dorin begrust ein man ein ander mit:

"Hello, Obereisenbahnknotenpunktwechselhinundherschieber" (auf die Eisenbahn). Aber ich weiss das er auch etwas ist mit Donaudampfshiffahrerkaleunt usw. :)

Donaudampfschiffahrtkapitänskjütentürschloßschraubendübelbohrungslochrandverzierungsfabrikationsanla genvorarbeitersicherheitsbekleidungsvorschrift... und so weiter und so fort...

eeh.. Zürich is Swiss....
Uh, I know. That is why I said I've never been to Germany. There is no single definitive Swiss culture... Switzerland is a conglomerate of several distinct ethnicities. Culturally Zurich is German. It's a pretty darn good approximation of what to expect in south Germany.

Uh, I know. That is why I said I've never been to Germany. There is no single definitive Swiss culture... Switzerland is a conglomerate of several distinct ethnicities. Culturally Zurich is German. It's a pretty darn good approximation of what to expect in south Germany.

whoops, sorry. Apparently I should pay more attention to the posts I answer..

Uh, I know. That is why I said I've never been to Germany. There is no single definitive Swiss culture... Switzerland is a conglomerate of several distinct ethnicities. Culturally Zurich is German. It's a pretty darn good approximation of what to expect in south Germany.
Switzerland split apart almost 800 years ago though (Wilhelm Tell). The three Kantons Uri, Schwyz and Unterwalden (Urkantone) who seeked independence.
Even the language is quite different: Swiss German.
Though it is considered the same language and since 1903 Switzerland, Austria and Germany have agreed on common language rules - which however leaves room for differences, especially in the field of vocabulary.
The Swiss have a very distinguish national identity - more than the Austrians for example.
Culturally there is something like the German-speaking world - like there is the anglo-saxon world (which is much bigger of course). But Switzerland is clearly different. Austria and Germany have more in common with each other than the two have with Switzerland.

How popular/notorious are the computer games "Escape from castle wolfenstein" and its sequel "return to castle wolfenstein" in Germany? are they banned? Do you regard it as dredging up the past? Do you feel that the games reflect negatively on the German people? Have you/would you play them?

I don´t know them. So I can´t answer that.

Why the hell is David Hasslehoff so popular over there. In the US he is considered a no talent assclown.

Why the hell is David Hasslehoff so popular over there. In the US he is considered a no talent assclown.
Because he speaks with his car (Knigh rider). And we love cars.

Because he speaks with his car (Knigh rider). And we love cars.
:D and he sings so lovely

:D and he sings so lovely
Oh NOOOOOOOOO.
It don´t like him. But I used to like the car he was driving in the series.

you overestimate nukes a bit. no country could use nukes, the answer would be too devastating. the wide spread effect of the nuke would also hit all neighbor countrys, and the radiation the whole world. no, no country would be so stupid to use a nuke.

uh, about 50 nukes were tested in the pacific by the french alone I think.

A single nuke renders a large area uninhabitable for a long time, depending on the size of the nuke, and the half life of the material (I think. Realy not sure about this. I dropped physics just before the atomic unit).
Anyway, a single nuke will not cause a nuclear winter. We dont use nukes in war because someone might retaliate with nukes, and that will kill even more people, and more and more nukes will be fired, and THAT will cause a nuclear winter.

If the USSR went to war with the US and tried to invade, the US would be forced to use nukes because the USSR had a much larger army. The reason why they didnt invade is because they didnt want a nuclear war either.

uh, about 50 nukes were tested in the pacific by the french alone I think.

A single nuke renders a large area uninhabitable for a long time, depending on the size of the nuke, and the half life of the material (I think. Realy not sure about this. I dropped physics just before the atomic unit).
Anyway, a single nuke will not cause a nuclear winter. We dont use nukes in war because someone might retaliate with nukes, and that will kill even more people, and more and more nukes will be fired, and THAT will cause a nuclear winter.

If the USSR went to war with the US and tried to invade, the US would be forced to use nukes because the USSR had a much larger army. The reason why they didnt invade is because they didnt want a nuclear war either.
I agree with you assessment. And I would go so far to say that the nuclear threat of both super powers prevented World War III (at least an hot World War III). Otherwise I think we would have seen one - like in 1962 for example, where the world was very close to it, or probably even earlier.

I think this practise is right. After all: is it common to sing all phrases of the American or British national anthem?
The third phrase is and should be considered the official anthem only.

The Australian (thats AustRALian, - down under, with Kangaroos and such) national anthem has a mystery third verse few people know that is never used, except when showing off ones trivia.

uh, about 50 nukes were tested in the pacific by the french alone I think.

A single nuke renders a large area uninhabitable for a long time, depending on the size of the nuke, and the half life of the material (I think. Realy not sure about this. I dropped physics just before the atomic unit).
Anyway, a single nuke will not cause a nuclear winter. We dont use nukes in war because someone might retaliate with nukes, and that will kill even more people, and more and more nukes will be fired, and THAT will cause a nuclear winter.

If the USSR went to war with the US and tried to invade, the US would be forced to use nukes because the USSR had a much larger army. The reason why they didnt invade is because they didnt want a nuclear war either.
Just wanted to add a nice little story...During the cold war (sorry can't remember the year, quite late anyway) all equipments in a Sovjet submarine showed that US had launched a nuclear bomb. The captain of the submarine decided that it just cannot be right. That US would never attack them. And he didn't launch his weapons eventough his leaders insisted it. After that he was sacked and given a small compensation. He lives in poverty in Russian and has been awarded few years ago when this accident came to common knowledge.
All the "very close" nuclear incidents are listed somewhere, can't remember the URL.

Just wanted to add a nice little story...During the cold war (sorry can't remember the year, quite late anyway) all equipments in a Sovjet submarine showed that US had launched a nuclear bomb. The captain of the submarine decided that it just cannot be right. That US would never attack them. And he didn't launch his weapons eventough his leaders insisted it. After that he was sacked and given a small compensation. He lives in poverty in Russian and has been awarded few years ago when this accident came to common knowledge.
All the "very close" nuclear incidents are listed somewhere, can't remember the URL.
this is not the one with the whole list but covers the story I wrote
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0506/p07s01-woeu.html

The Australian (thats AustRALian, - down under, with Kangaroos and such) national anthem has a mystery third verse few people know that is never used, except when showing off ones trivia.
Interesting. We don´t use the first verse in the Federal Repbulic (since 1949). There was one exception: when the last POWs returned from the Soviet Union in 1955. They were used to that one.
But except for that only the third verse is used.

The GDR (East Germany) had its own anthem:
"Rebuild from ruins and looking forward to the future. Let us serve you to goodness, Germany, united fatherland."
The East German regime actually banned the text of its own anthem in 1977 because it claimed that there are now not only two states but two nations. Well, didn´t work though. Nations are stronger than ideologies.
The development in North Korea (people trying to flee the country to South Korea) has comparisons to the development in 1989. Though China is trying to prevent it by sending North Koreans back and the North Korean regime is very dangerous. I hope the Korean reunification takes place in a peacefull process one day.

Oh NOOOOOOOOO.
It don´t like him. But I used to like the car he was driving in the series.

It was just a Trans Am! And of all people to have sing on the Berlin Wall during that important moment in history! Other than that, I love the German people. I go to an Octoberfest party tomorrow. I know, it's not a real Octoberfest but we Americans try.

The Australian (thats AustRALian, - down under, with Kangaroos and such) national anthem has a mystery third verse few people know that is never used, except when showing off ones trivia.
Well, what is this third verse all about?
I get interested.

Finally found it. Has nothing to do with this thread, sorry....just very interesting reading to everyone.
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/kinuclearweapons/anwindex.html

I go to an Octoberfest party tomorrow. I know, it's not a real Octoberfest but we Americans try.
I´ve never been to the Oktoberfest. I´m not Bavarian - and it is originally a bavarian tradition.

Well, what is this third verse all about?
I get interested.
Our national anthem is written by a German...with all 11 verses. :(

Our national anthem is written by a German...with all 11 verses. :(
WOOOOOPS!!!! not written, composed!

hmmm Oktoberfest....beer....gotta go and by few beers!

Well, what is this third verse all about?
I get interested.


Whoa! Even I got it wrong. There is only one verse normally sung, the first one, and most Australians know of a second verse, but dont know the lyrics, but research has shown that there are actually 5 verses!

http://www.miltonss.eq.edu.au/advance_australia.htm
http://www.genesis.net.au/~anthems/aaf.html

Our national anthem .. hasl 11 verses. :(
11 verses? Is there anybody who knows all of them?
There are many Germans who don´t even know the third verse - our official anthem. Many don´t know the first one - which is better anyway - and hardly anybody knows the second one though - which has a pretty stupid text in my view anyway.
But eleven verses. Whoa. Is it in the guiness book of records? Or is there a country with more verses of its national anthem?

Whoa! Even I got it wrong. There is only one verse normally sung, the first one, and most Australians know of a second verse, but dont know the lyrics, but research has shown that there are actually 5 verses!
Interesting: I can see why three were left out. After all: there is to much reference to Britain. After all: Australia is an independent country now. Though I know that there were disputes about its self-definition - like the dispute about queen or president.
So, there are obviously political reasons to leave the others out. We do the same in respect to the first verse since it claims borders which where in the 19 th century part of the german-speaking world (Germany only was unified in 1871). Since the national anthem was written at that time - 19 th century - became national anthem in 1922 during the first republic - it is of course referred to the realities of that time. Today it is just inapropiate.

I´ve actually heard that the US had a very anti-british verse in its first version of its anthem. Though that was reversed later.

I´ve never been to the Oktoberfest. I´m not Bavarian - and it is originally a bavarian tradition.

I didn't know that. You learn something everyday. Thank you. Do you have any questions for an American of Italian-Irish-German decent living in New Jersey?

I didn't know that. You learn something everyday. Thank you. Do you have any questions for an American of Italian-Irish-German decent living in New Jersey?
I may add something: Germany is a federal state - Federal Republic of Germany which consists of 16 states. It has a federalists tradition - except for the periods 1933-45 and 1952-1990 in East Germany.
Since I know that the US is also a federalists state and that the states in the US have state slogans I would like to know the one of New Jersey and for what the state is known for.

Interesting: I can see why three were left out. After all: there is to much reference to Britain. After all: Australia is an independent country now. Though I know that there were disputes about its self-definition - like the dispute about queen or president.
So, there are obviously political reasons to leave the others out.

Shou'd foreign foe e'er sight our coast,
Or dare a foot to land,
We'll rouse to arms like sires of yore
To guard our native strand;
Brittannia then shall surely know,
Beyond wide ocean's roll,
Her sons in fair Australia's land
Still keep a British soul.

I just did an assignment on multiculturalism in Australia. Before and just after WW2, Australia regaurded itself as British, even though it became independant and federated in 1901. Ironically, in WW2 in our fight against Japan, Australia had to recall its troops from the middle east assisting the British, and the British were occupied with Germany and could not fly to our aid, aiding the cultural distancing that happened in the years after WW2, because Australia suddenly didnt think so highly of mighty Britain any more. Err, the Ironic thing is that we had to ask America for help, and we even put our entire armed forces in command of an American General because our prime minister at the time, John Curtin, was a pacifist (and socialist), but of course, this wasnt a war we would negotiate out of.

BTW, can I just say that I am proud of my mothers father who fought the Japanese in Timor and New Guinnea (sp?).

Isn't it amazing how we've gone from Germany to national anthems, our ancestry, nuclear war and Australia.

BTW, my four grandparents were born in Melbourne (Australia - UK descent), Berlin (Germany - left 1918), Vienna (Austria - they got out of there quicksmart after Chrystal Night), and Poland (unknown city, but left way before WW2 simply because Poland was a hole).

Gah! I can't edit posts here.

I´ve actually heard that the US had a very anti-british verse in its first version of its anthem. Though that was reversed later.

Well, thye did just beat the British in a civil war.

I cant remember what I wanted to edit now. Its 1:30 am. *groan*

Uh, I know Australia's 7 states and territories and their respective capital cities have their own slogans. The only one I can remember is my city, Perth's (the most isolated capital city on Earth btw. 3500kms away from any where else...except for Adelaide, but thats universally regaurded as a hole). Perth's slogan is "Floreat" which is Latin for "flourish". Others are listed in the back of the Macquarie Australian Dictionary. Unfortunately I have been unable to find anything on the net about this.

I just did an assignment on multiculturalism in Australia. Before and just after WW2, Australia regaurded itself as British, even though it became independant and federated in 1901. Ironically, in WW2 in our fight against Japan, Australia had to recall its troops from the middle east assisting the British, and the British were occupied with Germany and could not fly to our aid, aiding the cultural distancing that happened in the years after WW2, because Australia suddenly didnt think so highly of mighty Britain any more. Err, the Ironic thing is that we had to ask America for help, and we even put our entire armed forces in command of an American General because our prime minister at the time, John Curtin, was a pacifist (and socialist), but of course, this wasnt a war we would negotiate out of.).
This development explains of course why the three pro-British verses disappeared - probably over the time, though there was probably also a political decision what should be considered the official anthem. In Germany that was in 1952 and again - reaffirming it - in 1991 after the reunification.

BTW, can I just say that I am proud of my mothers father who fought the Japanese in Timor and New Guinnea (sp?).
Isn't it amazing how we've gone from Germany to national anthems, our ancestry, nuclear war and Australia.
BTW, my four grandparents were born in Melbourne (Australia - UK descent), Berlin (Germany - left 1918), Vienna (Austria - they got out of there quicksmart after Chrystal Night), and Poland (unknown city, but left way before WW2 simply because Poland was a hole).
Well, the world is connected. My mother was actually born in Prague after World War II: my grandmother was out of a mixed family (czech/german) and her husband was of polish-jewish decent. That was the reason why they weren´t forced to leave the country - in contrasts to the other 2 million czech-germans - although my grandmother was of course legally a german citizen from 1939-1945 - and that was the criteria for the ethnic cleansing.
Well, they decided to leave the country in 1955, though, which was pretty difficult since the borders were already closed at that time. So, they needed to get "illegaly" West German passports in order to leave the country for "the west".

11 verses? Is there anybody who knows all of them?
There are many Germans who don´t even know the third verse - our official anthem. Many don´t know the first one - which is better anyway - and hardly anybody knows the second one though - which has a pretty stupid text in my view anyway.
But eleven verses. Whoa. Is it in the guiness book of records? Or is there a country with more verses of its national anthem?
I double checked, 11 verses...But we only sing the first and 11th.
here are the ones we sing in English
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/hymnieng.html#suomi

I double checked, 11 verses...But we only sing the first and 11th.
here are the ones we sing in English
http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/hymnieng.html#suomi
The second verse starts like
Our land is poor and will remain...

I may add something: Germany is a federal state - Federal Republic of Germany which consists of 16 states. It has a federalists tradition - except for the periods 1933-45 and 1952-1990 in East Germany.
Since I know that the US is also a federalists state and that the states in the US have state slogans I would like to know the one of New Jersey and for what the state is known for.

New Jersey's nickname is the Garden State. The State motto is "Liberty and Prosperity." We have a population of approximately 8.5 million people but are only the 47th largest state geographically. On December 18, 1787 New Jersey ratified the United States Constitution, making it the third State to do so. Several major battles of the Revolution took place in New Jersey in the early years of the War. One particular battle, the Battle of Trenton is cited as a pivotal battle in the war. Washington's troops, demoralized, hungry and freezing, were at the point of disbanding. Washington knew he needed a victory after a string of major defeats. On Christmas morning 1776, Washington crossed the Delaware River from Pennsyvania into New Jersey and attacked the Hessian (Prussians, I believe) garrison at Trenton. The Hessians were taken by suprise. In the insuing battle, the Hessian Commander, Colonel (or Oberst) Rahl, was mortally wounded. His grave site is still in Trenton. New Jersey, despite the jokes people make about it, is a beautiful State, full of history and culture. Between the great Cities of New York and Philadelphia, it is a great place to live.

How popular/notorious are the computer games "Escape from castle wolfenstein" and its sequel "return to castle wolfenstein" in Germany? sorry no idea. but i think the doom games are more popular.
are they banned?
yes. you cant buy them.
Do you regard it as dredging up the past? you mean digging up the past?
yes, its always the evil germans. why dont you use someone else as villains, australians, kiwis or whatever?
Do you feel that the games reflect negatively on the German people? it is not the germany of today, and with the exception of some extremly stupid amis everyone knows that, so i think you can ignore the negative reflect. Have you/would you play them? no, never.
even through i dont consider myself a nazi, it would feel wrong.
and a personal law of me it to never play a ww2 game (btw isnt wolfenstein to a large part fantasy?) where there isnt the possiblity to play the other side/a campaign for every side. fair is fair.

Why the hell is David Hasslehoff so popular over there. In the US he is considered a no talent assclown.
he is popular here? :eek:
thats emberassing :headbang:

He used to be popular. No more.

-cut-
so we gonna tell each others family history now?
sure why not, who is next?

yes, its always the evil germans. why dont you use someone else as villains, australians, kiwis or whatever?

irc-quotes:
<_kr4m3r> so many fucking criminals, its bullshit
<foniks`> heh, if we sent all the criminals to some empty continent and just left them there to die
<foniks`> and showed up like 50yrs later like, "sup?"
<foniks`> whatd u think they'd say?
<FoSZoR[bg]> something along the lines of, "G`Day mate"

yes, its always the evil germans. why dont you use someone else as villains, australians, kiwis or whatever?


Well, the Australians and New Zealanders have never had a go at world domination. We do fight for America all too often though.
Aussies are known for their compassion, love of freedom, lazyness etc.
My grandfather who fought the Japanese in WW2 aided the East Timorese who helped him against the Japanese to fight for independance a few years ago.

We are the good guys...well, when we aren't assisting Americans.

"A thousand years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased."

- Hans Frank, Governor General of Poland, before he was hanged at Nuremberg.

No permanent seat on the UN security council for you.

Throughout the world, on any given day, a man,
woman or child is likely to be displaced,
tortured, killed or "disappeared", at the hands
of governments or armed political groups. More
often than not, the United States shares the blame.

-Amnesty International, 1996

Makes me wonder why the US have a place in the UNSC then. Hypocrisy? You bet! Other than this, I do not at all feel guilty for what our ancestors did between 1940 and 1945. It is no more cruel than what the US did to the indians, what the Australians did to the aboriginals, what the Japanese did to the Chinese, what the Turks did to the Greek, what the Russians did to themselves and neighbor nations, what the US did during the times of slavery. Guilt is a personal thing, not a collective guilt of an entire nation with a history spanning more than 1000 years.

But Stalin did not try to extinguish a whole ethnical group and had no Auschwitz, Dachau or Belsen-Bergen, which served only one purpose: Killing people by industrial means. So just go away to the moon, in exemple, there you might find some hidden Nazi-bases where you can surely have a great time. :)

Actually, the Soviets systematically killed both jews and gypsies...

Well, the Australians and New Zealanders have never had a go at world domination. We do fight for America all too often though.
Aussies are known for their compassion, love of freedom, lazyness etc.
My grandfather who fought the Japanese in WW2 aided the East Timorese who helped him against the Japanese to fight for independance a few years ago.
We are the good guys...well, when we aren't assisting Americans.
The Americans were mostly the good guys as well - except against the indians and the Southerners against the Afro-Americans.
It is not possible to divide the world purely into good and evil.
Surely: Japan and Germany went for regional domination, Germany in Europe and Japan in the pacific region. And they were more cruel by doing for such a strategy than others (like for example Napoleon from 1802-1815) who wanted to dominate all of Europe as well - and was pretty succesfull before he was defeated.
There were many nations who wanted to go for regional domination: from the Romans, to the Arabs, to the Francs (tribe in the 7 th, 8 th and 9 th century which ruled over France, Germany and others parts of Central Europe - fell apart in 843), Russians and others.
Russia (and the Soviet Union) also tried to go for global domination.
France, Britain and Spain also tried to go for global domination.
Well, and in our times others could try to do it as well. I´m concerned about the domestic developments in Russia (neo-nationalism) and China (influence on North Korea ? Taiwan-question).

Countries like the United States or Australia and others wouldn´t exist without European imperialism. On the other hand they seeked independence from it. The question is for what? Today European countries don´t have the power to do much mischief. There are others who could however do so.
The believe in once own superiority and the step towards an imperialistic policy to rule over others is a thin line many countries have crossed - not only Japan and Germany, but both did it admittedly with much more cruelty and linked with racialists ideologies.
But today both are different countries and stable democracies. We are not in the year 1945 but in the year 2004. I think it is sad that some people don´t realize that. I don´t feel guilty for things I haven´t done. Guilt is individual not collective. There is a responsibility to prevent evil things to be repeated: therefore I supported the Kosovo war. But this is a responsibility for all nations of the world. The Federal Republic of Germany is contributing to this effort within the UN, Nato and the EU in a multilateral framework. And Japan does that as well.

"A thousand years will pass and the guilt of Germany will not be erased."
Not thousand - it will need two thousand years. Like with the jews who were blamed - rightly or wrongly for that time - for killing Jesus.
I don´t see this is just do. Going for collective guilt is always injust because it causes hatred and prejudice - and that is the basis for all ideologies of hate.
I hope that the world develops beyond that - but it doesn´t seem to be the case. Since that is the case everybody must be ready to defend itself.
For a small country in Europe - like Germany - that means to have alliances. There are since the 1950s two main alliances - one with the US, the other with France.
If one would fall apart it needs to resort to the others - and that is what is happening currently. Whether that is a smart thing - both by Germany and the US - is another question.
But "Old Europe" and the US are more and more falling apart.

Everyone who's been to or lives in Germany - what's your favorite city? Mine is Köln.
(On a side note, it took me about 5 minutes to figure out what the number was to type the "ö"...I could have just said "Cologne," but I don't want to sound like an ignorant American :) )
Bamberg, followed by Regensberg, then Munich, Nurenberg, and a beautiful spot on a rock that I'm sure to misspell, Bertchesgaden.

Beir, did somebody mention beer? Annually rated between #2-4 in the world by a notorious beer drinkers guide, and another beer connoisseur magazine. (sp)Kreuzberg Monestery, lies close to the Fulda region, where beer has been brewed for hundreds of years.

The Americans were mostly the good guys as well - except against the indians and the Southerners against the Afro-Americans.
It is not possible to divide the world purely into good and evil.

Often they pretend to be righteous, but Americas motives and actions and even purpose in war are often most evil. They are happy to tolerate or set up a dictator in a nation, causing much suffering for the people (Afghanistani Taliban, Iran etc) as long as it suits their needs.


Surely: Japan and Germany went for regional domination, Germany in Europe and Japan in the pacific region. And they were more cruel by doing for such a strategy than others (like for example Napoleon from 1802-1815) who wanted to dominate all of Europe as well - and was pretty succesfull before he was defeated.
There were many nations who wanted to go for regional domination: from the Romans, to the Arabs, to the Francs (tribe in the 7 th, 8 th and 9 th century which ruled over France, Germany and others parts of Central Europe - fell apart in 843), Russians and others.
Russia (and the Soviet Union) also tried to go for global domination.
France, Britain and Spain also tried to go for global domination.
Well, and in our times others could try to do it as well. I´m concerned about the domestic developments in Russia (neo-nationalism) and China (influence on North Korea ? Taiwan-question).


Actually, you are right. Nazi Germany didn't want to go to war with Britiain. It just wanted France to be under its control, and have the land East of Germany for the Leibstraum (sp?), or 'living space'. Britian could not allow it and so Germany went to war with it.
Japans motives were definately for domination of the Pacific. They even got so far as printing off Japanese money for Australia. "Empire of Japan Australian Pounds" I think, or something like it. Google has failed me.

Oh, and I'm descended from the Francs. I'm a direct male descendant of the false massiah Jacob/Joseph Frank. He had his own cult a few centuries ago before it was absorbed by the Roman Catholic Church after his death. Bastards. Yay for me. :p

Countries like the United States or Australia and others wouldn´t exist without European imperialism. On the other hand they seeked independence from it. The question is for what? Today European countries don´t have the power to do much mischief. There are others who could however do so.

Why would we want some schmos on the other side of the planet making descisions for us, especially if we strongly disagree with them on issues. How would they know whats right for us?

Oh, and Australia was practically handed its freedom. Not a single fight over it, though for the first 50 years it essentially followed England whereever it could. Alomost looking up to it like a bigger brother, trying to impress it all the time.

The believe in once own superiority and the step towards an imperialistic policy to rule over others is a thin line many countries have crossed - not only Japan and Germany, but both did it admittedly with much more cruelty and linked with racialists ideologies.

Multiculturalism my friend. Australia was built on it after WW2.

But today both are different countries and stable democracies. We are not in the year 1945 but in the year 2004. I think it is sad that some people don´t realize that. I don´t feel guilty for things I haven´t done. Guilt is individual not collective. There is a responsibility to prevent evil things to be repeated: therefore I supported the Kosovo war. But this is a responsibility for all nations of the world. The Federal Republic of Germany is contributing to this effort within the UN, Nato and the EU in a multilateral framework. And Japan does that as well.

I agree totally, and think there should be more focus on improving this less close to home. The west only fuels the suffering in many third world coutries, or could do a lot to help it. But no, NATO arrives in force in Kosovo, but where is such a force in troubled places in Africa?

Anyway, I totally agree about collective guilt.
Shoot. gtg.

Often they pretend to be righteous, but Americas motives and actions and even purpose in war are often most evil. They are happy to tolerate or set up a dictator in a nation, causing much suffering for the people (Afghanistani Taliban, Iran etc) as long as it suits their needs. .
However over all the US has a good record. Better than the one of other nations.

Actually, you are right. Nazi Germany didn't want to go to war with Britiain. It just wanted France to be under its control, and have the land East of Germany for the Leibstraum (sp?), or 'living space'. Britian could not allow it and so Germany went to war with it. .
Lebensraum (living space). And the intentions were directed eastward: Lebensraum im Osten (living space in the east). First this was "tried" to do with Western (French, British) backing - like with the destruction of Czechoslovakia in 1938 - Munich treaty). Hitler pretended to be a counter-balance to the Soviets. In 1934 he even signed a non-agression pact with Poland.
But with the alliance with Italy (1936) and the success in Spain (1936-39) he felt in the position to realize the "big plan". And since Britain and France didn´t want to go for it he went for a temporary agreement with the Soviets first (1939: Non-agression pact: a "secret clause" included the division of Eastern Europe between the USSR and Germany). With this backing World War II began with the invasion of Poland. The Soviets took the Baltic states, East Finland, East Poland and East Romania.
And since Britain and France had given security garantees for Poland they declared war on Germany which resulted first in the german invasion of Denmark, Norway, the Netherlans, Belgium and Luxemburg (to prevent an allied landing there) and later the invasion of France.

Japans motives were definately for domination of the Pacific. They even got so far as printing off Japanese money for Australia. "Empire of Japan Australian Pounds" I think, or something like it. Google has failed me..
Germanies motiviations where simular: domination of Europe. Japan wanted to dominate and control the pacific region - also for living space. Japan had already in 1910 conquered Korea. And in the 1920s it was involved in Siberia - however withdraw from it later. Of course: this is a very important region even today. Although the Kuril dispute still prevents Japanese investment in the Russian energy sector. Well - that leaves more for European (German) and American interests in the region.
There was of course a difference between Japan and German imperialism in the early 20 th century and other imperialistic powers: and that was the extreme racialism which was involved in that process. But the "imperialistic" aspect is not such an unique thing as it is often presented.

Why would we want some schmos on the other side of the planet making descisions for us, especially if we strongly disagree with them on issues. How would they know whats right for us?..
I believe in the right of self-determination. That´s why it is logical that most former colonies seeked independence or got independence. And this is also an aspect which need to be taken into acount when interventions are taken. I´ve heard - but you shurely know more about it than I since you are from the pacific region - that the East-Timor question was solved with independence and that the main mission can be ended soon.
That is a difference to the Kosovo mission (which is led by the US, Britain, France, Italy and Germany).
The status of Kosovo is still open (part of Serbia or independent state). I think this issue need to be tackled and I think that the people of Kosovo should decide it (which would mean independence since 90% are Albanians, who don´t want back under the rule of Belgrad).
Certainly minority rights need to be inshured. But I don´t think that a stabilisation in the long-term is possible by keeping this status open and keeping Kosovo an UN-Nato protectorate. The Kosovo-Albanians - who firstly welcomed Nato very much - become more and more impatience about the open status question.


Oh, and Australia was practically handed its freedom. Not a single fight over it, though for the first 50 years it essentially followed England whereever it could. Alomost looking up to it like a bigger brother, trying to impress it all the time.
Britain was really smart in its policy of decolonialisation. It did much on its own - or pressured by rather peaceful protests (like in India). It was smart enough to organize the process of the end of the Empire by founding the Commonwealth and it didn´t try to keep the colonies by the use of force - which would not have been a sucessful strategy anyway.
France tried that and lost in South East Asia in 1954 and faced a guerilla war in Algeria - up until the point de Gaulle was smart enough to end this.

Multiculturalism my friend. Australia was built on it after WW2..
I´ve a problem with this concept. And that is that it doesn´t work in many respects. For example: there are cultures that allow polygamy? Should we allow it? There are cultures where the legal status of woman is lower than of man: Should we allow it.
A country can only have one legal system. And that may not be liked by all cultures.
Those are though and difficult questions where to draw a line. We can´t pretend that the world is that easy. It unfortunately is complicated.

I agree totally, and think there should be more focus on improving this less close to home. The west only fuels the suffering in many third world coutries, or could do a lot to help it. But no, NATO arrives in force in Kosovo, but where is such a force in troubled places in Africa?
Well: I think the more developed countries of Africa have also a responsibility for their continent. I´m very much in favour of regionalism. Regional organisations such as NAFTA, Asean, the African Union or the EU and others can play a role here.
Especially in Africa the AU has to play a bigger role in conflict prevention. The west should support that. For example in Liberia the AU took over after the US left.
I happen to agree both with President Bush and Senator Kerry that the west should support the AU in solving the Darfur crisis.
We can´t and shouldn´t intervene everywhere in the world directly. Especially if there are ways to improve the situation by organisations on the continent we should rather support those and their efforts.
After all: the "west" may be blamed for non-intervention but it can also be blamed for interventionism. Especially if it is not successful, as for example the Somalia mission (1993) was - the first mission UN mission btw where Germany participated with troops. When I remember right the US was actually the first who arrived there and the first who left it. Somalia is still pretty much in chaos today as it was before 1993.
That was certainly one reason why no intervention was done in Ruanda and Burundi in 1994. A shame really since about 1,5 million Tutsi were killed by Hutus within a few months after it was stopped finally.
The situation in the entire region is still very difficult in the entire region - which also includes the Kongo.
I think the former colonial power - in that case Belgium and France - have a special responsibilty.

Actually he received a ton of funding from George W Bush's grand dad who had funneled the money through banks to support the Nazi war cause. I will find a link cause I know I'll be berated for saying this....

Couldn't find a link. Hope this will suffice:

Many of the great houses of American industry and finance had very dirty hands when it came to dealing with the Nazis. General Motors, IBM, Standard Oil and many others have had their sorted dealings with the enemies of the United States aired in public forums. However, one criminal has had little exposure – Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to two occupants of the Whitehouse.

The story of Prescott Bush and his association with the Nazis begins just before the end of World War I with the dealings of the German industrialist family of Thyssen. As German hopes for victory sank into the mud filled trenches of the western front, August Thyssen, known as the “Rockefeller of the Rhur” opened the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam, placing his son Fritz at its head. The bank, being in neutral Holland, was an excellent place to hide his vast wealth as the Imperial Germany disintegrated. Meanwhile, his other son, Heinrich, married into Hungarian nobility and changed his name to Barron Thyssen Bornemisza de Kaszon.

After the war, Avrell Harriman, son of the rail baron E. H. Harriman, and his partner George Herbert Walker, was busy setting up their own international banking network. In 1922, Harriman met with Fritz Thyssen and agreed to set up banking interests for him in the states. By 1924, the Union Banking Corporation was born.

Meanwhile, back in Germany, the crippling effects of the war and the harsh conditions inflicted on the German economy due to the Versailles Treaty were causing widespread unrest. One of the players in this unrest was, of course, Adolph Hitler. Fritz Thyssen became an ardent follower of Hitler, embarrassing the ideas of the Nazis, especially his anti-union, anti-labor views. He provided Hitler with his first infusion of cash. Several German industrialists followed Thyssen’s lead and also donated to the Nazis. After the failed “Beer Hall Putsch” in 1923, many gave up on Hitler, but not Thyssen.

The late 1920’s saw a boom in the German economy. August Thyssen died, leaving his son Fritz in control of their vast holdings. Thyssen merged his steel operations with Flick who owned many coal and steel interests throughout Germany and Poland, forming United Steel Works (USW). Walker and Harriman meanwhile sold $50,000,000 in German bonds to bankroll the Thyssen/Flick Empire.

It was at this time that the young Prescott Bush entered the picture. Walker hired his new son-in-law to run the American side USW. Prescott was a hard worker and helped everyone involved make a great deal of money.

Then 1929 came. World financial markets crumbled to dust. However, the plutocrats –, Thyssen, Harriman and Flick maintained their empires. With the ever-deepening desperation setting into the mindset of the German public, Hitler’s maniacal rants became more popular. Thyssen joined the Nazis and bankrolled their rise to power. By 1932, despite loosing 35 seats in parliament in the national election, the Nazis were able to broker a power sharing deal. By 1934 Hitler was the dictator of Germany.

Hitler wanted to see the rebirth of Germany. He began a massive campaign to build the autobahn and rebuild his military. All of this needed steel, steel which Thyssen and Flick controlled. Profits for the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart and the Union Banking Corporation soared. Prescott Bush became managing director of Union Banking Corporation and personally ran the German end of the business.

However, all was not rosy for the gang. The Polish government was growing weary of Flick’s operations in Poland and threatening to take over the businesses claiming fraudulent bookkeeping, securities fraud, tax evasion and excessive borrowing. The conflict with the Polish government ended when Hitler invaded, destroying that nation and, starting World War II in Europe.

Thyssen and Flick’s Polish steel interests were centered at Oswiecim in the heart of a vast coal and steel-producing region. After Hitler’s takeover, he decided to place a forced labor camp in the area in order to exploit the resource rich state. That camp became Auschwitz.

Thyssen and Flick, fearing a repeat of the collapse of Germany after WWI, bailed out, selling their Polish interests to Union Banking Corporation and fleeing Germany. As it turned out, Fritz and his brother Heinrich had made similar slights of hand between these banks and a third bank – The August Thyssen Bank of Berlin – many times, perpetrating a series of tax and securities frauds. Whenever there was a threat to the Thyssen Empire, the brothers would collude to hide their assets. In this case, Harriman became the controlling interest and Bush managed the former Polish enterprises, all of which were supplied labor from the camps at Auschwitz.

On December 13, 1941, six days after the attack at Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt signed the “Trading With the Enemy Act”. This act banned business dealings the enemies of the United States. Prescott Bush ignored this and continued to do business with the Nazis.

Prescott’s dreams of riches began to crumble in the summer of 1942. The New York Tribune had discovered and written on the Bush-Thyssen connection. The Tribune hung the moniker of “Hitler’s Angel” on Bush. On October 20, 1942, after investigation by the US government, Vesting Order 248 was executed. The order stated…

Under the authority of the Trading with the enemy Act, as amended, and pursuant to law, the undersigned, after investigation, finding:

(a) That the property described as follows:

All of the capital stock of Union Banking Corporation, a New York corporation, New York, New York, …[identifying E. Roland Harriman, Cornelius Lievense, Harold D. Pennington, Ray Morris, Prescott S. Bush, H.J. Kouwenhoven and Johann G. Groeninger as shareholders] …

… all of which shares are held the benefit of Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart, N.V., Rotterdam, The Netherlands, which bank is owned or controlled by members of the Thyssen family, nationals of German and/or Hungary …

(b) That the property described as follows …is an interest in the aforesaid business enterprise held by nationals of an enemy country or countries, and also is property within the United States owned or controlled by nationals of a designated enemy country… deemed it necessary in the national interest, hereby vests such property in the Alien Property Custodian, to be held, used, administered, liquidated, sold or otherwise dealt with in the interest of and for the benefit of the United States….

With that, Prescott Bush lost his power in the Union Banking Corporation. Bush resigned as managing director in 1943, but still retained his stock interests. For the remainder of the war, he engaged in fund raising activities and became the founder of the United Services Organizations (USO).

But the story, and the audacity, of Prescott Bush do not end here. For that, we must return to Fritz Thyssen.

After Holland was overrun in 1940, Hitler’s auditors investigated the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart. Hitler was after Fritz Thyssen’s fortune, which had been transferred to the Netherlands after he fled Germany in 1939. Transfer of funds outside the Reich was illegal. However, no evidence was found in Rotterdam and Hitler imprisoned his one-time benefactor for the duration of the war. Unknown to Hitler, Thyssen had transferred his family’s assets to his brother Heinrich in Hungary.

As the war ground on and German hopes faded, Thyssen planned to transfer his empire back to “neutral” Rotterdam as in German and the Soviet bloc would not be recoverable. The only hitch in the plan was that the August Thyssen Bank of Berlin was destroyed in the war and the vault with all the Thyssen family papers were buried under a mountain of rubble. But the enterprising Thyssen brothers got Dutch authorities to dig up the vault and bring it back to The Netherlands.

Despite being held and interrogated by the Allies, Fritz Thyssen never told the authorities where his fortune was hidden and ultimately he was released from prison. He died in Argentina in 1951. Upon his death, the Alien Property Custodian released the assets of the Union Banking Corporation. The principles cashed out and the UBC was no more.

Prescott Bush received $750,000 for his share of Union Banking Corporation, a princely sum in 1951, but nothing compared to the millions the Thyssen family got back. Prescott used some of this Nazi cash to bankroll his son George Herbert Walker Bush’s first business enterprise and to support his successful bid for Senate in 1952. The Thyssen’s rebuilt their empire, and today, the Thyssen Group (TBG) is the largest industrial conglomerate in Germany.

D. A. Friedrichs

Many of the great houses of American industry and finance had very dirty hands when it came to dealing with the Nazis. General Motors, IBM, Standard Oil and many others have had their sorted dealings with the enemies of the United States aired in public forums. However, one criminal has had little exposure – Prescott Bush, father and grandfather to two occupants of the Whitehouse.

I knew Bush was evil, but I didn't know he had his foot in the Nazi camp.

That was very interesting though. Thanks for that.
I'm sure if most Jews etc in America knew that, they would vote against Bush at this next election.
I'm sure anyone like me who has lost relatives, including very close ones in concentration camps, or have relatives who have lived to tell of the horrors within them would protest any man getting into senate on Nazi money.

Lebensraum (living space). And the intentions were directed eastward: Lebensraum im Osten (living space in the east). First this was "tried" to do with Western (French, British) backing - like with the destruction of Czechoslovakia in 1938 - Munich treaty). Hitler pretended to be a counter-balance to the Soviets. In 1934 he even signed a non-agression pact with Poland.

Supposedly, as the German Army went East in to the USSR, Stalin didn't retreat his finely sparsed troops, refusing to believe Hitler would invade. They lost a fair chunk of their army that way,

I believe in the right of self-determination. That´s why it is logical that most former colonies seeked independence or got independence. And this is also an aspect which need to be taken into acount when interventions are taken. I´ve heard - but you shurely know more about it than I since you are from the pacific region - that the East-Timor question was solved with independence and that the main mission can be ended soon.
That is a difference to the Kosovo mission (which is led by the US, Britain, France, Italy and Germany).
The status of Kosovo is still open (part of Serbia or independent state). I think this issue need to be tackled and I think that the people of Kosovo should decide it (which would mean independence since 90% are Albanians, who don´t want back under the rule of Belgrad).
Certainly minority rights need to be inshured. But I don´t think that a stabilisation in the long-term is possible by keeping this status open and keeping Kosovo an UN-Nato protectorate. The Kosovo-Albanians - who firstly welcomed Nato very much - become more and more impatience about the open status question.

Britain was really smart in its policy of decolonialisation. It did much on its own - or pressured by rather peaceful protests (like in India). It was smart enough to organize the process of the end of the Empire by founding the Commonwealth and it didn´t try to keep the colonies by the use of force - which would not have been a sucessful strategy anyway.
France tried that and lost in South East Asia in 1954 and faced a guerilla war in Algeria - up until the point de Gaulle was smart enough to end this.

Actually, after WW2, Holland tried to reclaim what was once its 'Dutch East Indies' (I think), and they even threatened (or try?) military action. Australia backed their fight for independance, and Indonesia became an independant country.
Ironically, Australia nearly went to war with them over East Timor's independance.


I´ve a problem with this concept. And that is that it doesn´t work in many respects. For example: there are cultures that allow polygamy? Should we allow it? There are cultures where the legal status of woman is lower than of man: Should we allow it.
A country can only have one legal system. And that may not be liked by all cultures.
Those are though and difficult questions where to draw a line. We can´t pretend that the world is that easy. It unfortunately is complicated.

Actually, there is a very simple way of sorting this out.
If something you do breaks Australian law, you will be tried under Australlian law. It doesn't matter if god told you to do it, it was in the name of god, it was as part of a ritual, it is tradition etc etc. You will be investigated, tried and punished via normal law.

There is only one exception to this, and that is of Aboriginal law, and this is because they are the native inhabitants of this land.
An aboriginie may be given a lighter sentence etc if they are tried and punished by their native courts and law. This often comes in the form of a spear through the thigh. This sometimes happens with rape and murder cases believe.
Personally, I think this is fair.


Well: I think the more developed countries of Africa have also a responsibility for their continent. I´m very much in favour of regionalism. Regional organisations such as NAFTA, Asean, the African Union or the EU and others can play a role here.
Especially in Africa the AU has to play a bigger role in conflict prevention. The west should support that. For example in Liberia the AU took over after the US left.
I happen to agree both with President Bush and Senator Kerry that the west should support the AU in solving the Darfur crisis.
We can´t and shouldn´t intervene everywhere in the world directly. Especially if there are ways to improve the situation by organisations on the continent we should rather support those and their efforts.
After all: the "west" may be blamed for non-intervention but it can also be blamed for interventionism. Especially if it is not successful, as for example the Somalia mission (1993) was - the first mission UN mission btw where Germany participated with troops. When I remember right the US was actually the first who arrived there and the first who left it. Somalia is still pretty much in chaos today as it was before 1993.
That was certainly one reason why no intervention was done in Ruanda and Burundi in 1994. A shame really since about 1,5 million Tutsi were killed by Hutus within a few months after it was stopped finally.
The situation in the entire region is still very difficult in the entire region - which also includes the Kongo.
I think the former colonial power - in that case Belgium and France - have a special responsibilty.

I think the west should arrive in force, defeat the trouble makers (those we beleive are trouble makers), replace corrupt governments, and all will be better in Africa.
This sounds very harsh, but that is exactly what the US has done in the middle east.

There is one African country, I can't remeber which, where the people live in poverty, starving, though the nation exports oil to the US. In the past year their economy rose (?) 60%, but the people saw none of that because the presidential family got nearly all of it. Heck, they even live in luxury in the US!
I think the US should freeze their assets, arrest them, and the UN should put them on trial. For what exactly I am not sure, but what they are doing is wrong, people are suffering, and the UN should be the world body for stopping things like this.

The military conflicts in Africa I think should be sorted out by a massive invasion force. It would be ridiculously expensive, many people would die, but millions are frigging dieing!
Well, thats what would happen in a world where ther is no price on a man's life.


Don't mind me, I'm venting because I'm stressed about my final year 12 exams starting tomorow.