NationStates Jolt Archive

"meat is still murder, dairy is still rape" keeps ringing in my head. i just wanna know if goats and cows make more milk then they need. cuz, i mean sure it'd be rape if we take away their calves and steal their milk, but is that what happens? a few mothers are allowed to feed their calves and kids and the rest get their babies taken away to be slaughtered and for the rest of the year until their milk runs dry they get milked by horrible greedy hands. (efficiency is the key!) the animals are reduced to nothing but machines that supply the world's dairy companies. sure there are farmers that treat their animals with kindness but it doesn't change their destinies - they still come to the same ends. so do animals deserve to be used like this just because they don't possess the kind of sentience that we do? fuck - no. so what am i, a vegan now? but i never feel guilty when i'm eating meat or drinking milk. so maybe i have to settle for being a hypocrite.

"meat is still murder, dairy is still rape" keeps ringing in my head. i just wanna know if goats and cows make more milk then they need. cuz, i mean sure it'd be rape if we take away their calves and steal their milk, but is that what happens? a few mothers are allowed to feed their calves and kids and the rest get their babies taken away to be slaughtered and for the rest of the year until their milk runs dry they get milked by horrible greedy hands. (efficiency is the key!) the animals are reduced to nothing but machines that supply the world's dairy companies. sure there are farmers that treat their animals with kindness but it doesn't change their destinies - they still come to the same ends. so do animals deserve to be used like this just because they don't possess the kind of sentience that we do? fuck - no. so what am i, a vegan now? but i never feel guilty when i'm eating meat or drinking milk. so maybe i have to settle for being a hypocrite.

I'm a vegetarian and very lax vegan, so this post interests me. But... what exactly is your point or question? I'm having trouble understanding your starting post in its entirety.

"meat is still murder, dairy is still rape" keeps ringing in my head. i just wanna know if goats and cows make more milk then they need. cuz, i mean sure it'd be rape if we take away their calves and steal their milk, but is that what happens? a few mothers are allowed to feed their calves and kids and the rest get their babies taken away to be slaughtered and for the rest of the year until their milk runs dry they get milked by horrible greedy hands. (efficiency is the key!) the animals are reduced to nothing but machines that supply the world's dairy companies. sure there are farmers that treat their animals with kindness but it doesn't change their destinies - they still come to the same ends. so do animals deserve to be used like this just because they don't possess the kind of sentience that we do? fuck - no. so what am i, a vegan now? but i never feel guilty when i'm eating meat or drinking milk. so maybe i have to settle for being a hypocrite.
First things first... paragraphs, they really are your friend.

If you dont feel guilty for eating meat or drinking milk then you should eat meat and drink milk. However if you really do feel that the treatment of dairy cows or livestock in general perhaps you could direct your energy to promoting a more humane treatment of them.

While I generally think PETA is off it's rocker, they just might do some good with that video they released concerning the turkey farm a while back.

Damn hypocrits!!!

Okay, I am hungry. Pass over the steak and eggs. Can I have a glass of milk with that?

sorry it all came out in a jumble... what i really want to know i guess is some information! how is it really? cuz i was letting my imagination run away with me there. do we treat animals with the sort of banal inconsideration that irks me so?

Geh. "Meat is murder"...hardly. It's one of the few food sources these days that nature really intended. If meat is murder, every predatory animal (and plant) is a murderer. It's just a rediculous assertation.

As for "dairy is rape"...I fail to see that. With the (sometimes) genetically engineered, hormone-treated, selectively-bred cattle used these days, they do produce far more than they would ever need. In any case, it seems a pretty big jump from "theft of milk" to "rape," in terms of terminology. More an emotionally-based slogan conjured by the peta folks.

And, for the kicker, this is all being written by...a vegetarian! Yep, haven't eaten meat of any kind in months, no red meat in years. I still hate the peta folks. I'm what a friend of mine referred to as "the first reasonable vegetarian [she'd] ever met." Veg for two reasons: my own health (my body processes meat poorly), and the damaging effects of current factory farming procedures on the environment, and to a lesser degree, the livestock (just because they're to be slaughtered doesn't mean needless cruelty is acceptable).

There are plenty of reasons to oppose dairying on environmental grounds but the cows themselves get a pretty luxurious lifestyle. If you want to launch a rant about animal welfare, which BTW i am very concerned about myself, concentrate on battery chickens and meat animals, not dairy herds.

(oh yeah, cheese is good)

sorry it all came out in a jumble... what i really want to know i guess is some information! how is it really? cuz i was letting my imagination run away with me there. do we treat animals with the sort of banal inconsideration that irks me so?

Well, I'll try to pass on some facts that I'm aware of.

-Meat is highly inefficient in terms of land usage and general effort. We grow grain and corn to feed cows and eat the cows. I *think* the statistic is that the wheat and corn is five times as efficient. Which means a meat eater consumes five times as much "energy" than a vegetarian. That's taking into account land usage, time, man power, and anything else I'm forgeting.

-The guy who posted recently said that every preditor is a murderer if meat is murder. Sure, I'll give him that. Nature is a dangerous place. As an idealist, I say that human beings are capable of taking better care of animals than they do themselves. Many people say this is pointless, and they're perfectly free to think so. I acknowledge that it's an unusual conclusion to come to.

-At least in America, we slaughter a cow when it's about 14 months old, and they're trying to cut it down to 11 months. Dairy cows live longer. Hence, it isn't quite as bad to drink milk as it is to eat red meat.

-If you live in Wisconsin or some other "farming" state, your meat may actually have lived a decent life. 84% of cow meat comes from a feed lot - the bane of animal rights groups. The other 16% of cows actually get to graze for the majority of their lives. And because the cow is eating grass instead of corn, it takes longer to grow, so they live for more than 14 months.

I'll post some more later. Flames/questions first.

I live in New Zealand, home of the worlds largest dairy company.

Guess what, %94 of our downstream watersystems are contaminated and unsafe to drink fromdue to the presence of effluent from high intensity dairy farming. Pretty much all of our meat animals are grass fed though not grain fed so its not all bad.

I live in New Zealand, home of the worlds largest dairy company.

Guess what, %94 of our downstream watersystems are contaminated and unsafe to drink fromdue to the presence of effluent from high intensity dairy farming. Pretty much all of our meat animals are grass fed though not grain fed so its not all bad.

Grass and not grain? So they aren't raised in an actual feedlot, right? If I'm mistaken, how can they dedicate so much land to cow grazing?

Ill tell you what I know firsthand. If I was an alien watching the world, I would think that cows are worshipped in Japan, loved in most countries and HATED in India.

Thats ironic cause cows are sacred in India, and a food source most everywhere else.

Here is reality.

Hindus dont eat beef, so cows in India are basically left to fend for themselves. Nobody bothers to feed them properly, and most every cow you see there will have it ribs sticking out. No to mention when they are routinely tied up to a tree or lamppost to the extent that there necks become deformed. Its a little differant in the villages(the cows are sometimes taken to graze)(though more often its goats cause they are a meat animal), but in the cities it is just pathetic the way cows a treated.

We ought to outsource PETA to third world countries. They might even have a point if they were there.

Kobe beef in japan is highly prized. the cows are massaged and fed all sorts of good stuff including beer.

Cows elsewhere are well fed and taken care of.

Geh. "Meat is murder"...hardly. It's one of the few food sources these days that nature really intended.


Nature don't intend shit. It just is.


As for "dairy is rape"...I fail to see that. With the (sometimes) genetically engineered, hormone-treated, selectively-bred cattle used these days, they do produce far more than they would ever need. In any case, it seems a pretty big jump from "theft of milk" to "rape," in terms of terminology.

You are aware that cattle do not produce milk except for during the period after they have calved? Thus most dairy cows are artificially inseminated in order to produce calves, and then milk. I believe the artificial insemination is what is being refered to as 'rape' here, not the actual milking of the cow.

You are aware that cattle do not produce milk except for during the period after they have calved? Thus most dairy cows are artificially inseminated in order to produce calves, and then milk. I believe the artificial insemination is what is being refered to as 'rape' here, not the actual milking of the cow.

You may be taking the quote a bit literally, too. I think the quote is meant to say "eating meat is really really bad, and dairy's bad but not as bad as meat". Dairy is taking advantage of an animal's body, so it can be related to rape regardless of the fact that it has very little to do with actual reproduction.

Then again, maybe I'm looking too much into it - your post does have a point. :D

Steak is tasty.

Milk is a requirement in good cooking, and chocolate milk happens to rule.
I, as a more evolved life form with opposable digits, am free to prey upon those weaker and tastier life forms.

C'est la vie.

Hakkuna matata.

whatever.

Grass and not grain? So they aren't raised in an actual feedlot, right? If I'm mistaken, how can they dedicate so much land to cow grazing?
well we dont have that many people to live on the land so its reasonably easy to find. Pasture is also quite rich with good soil and plenty of rain so we can get quite a few cows onto each unit of land. As for the effluent problem, thats mostly a side effect of dairying not meat production which is quite limited.

Dairy is taking advantage of an animal's body, so it can be related to rape regardless of the fact that it has very little to do with actual reproduction.

No, you missed the point: the dairy industry is explicitly tied to reproduction - if a cow only produces milk for a period after she has calved long enough to wean the young. Thus there is a constant cycle of artificial insemination and reproduction in order to sustain milk production.

Then again, maybe I'm looking too much into it - your post does have a point. :D

What does the fact that one of the pieces of apparatus used during artificial insemination of animals is sometimes referred to as the 'rape rack' by those that use it suggest to you?

well we dont have that many people to live on the land so its reasonably easy to find. Pasture is also quite rich with good soil and plenty of rain so we can get quite a few cows onto each unit of land. As for the effluent problem, thats mostly a side effect of dairying not meat production which is quite limited.

I see...

I, as a more evolved life form with opposable digits, am free to prey upon those weaker and tastier life forms.


Klang! - "differently evolved", not "more evolved".

Animals are here to feed and/or entertain us(humans).

Read your damn bibles people!

No, you missed the point: the dairy industry is explicitly tied to reproduction - if a cow only produces milk for a period after she has calved long enough to wean the young. Thus there is a constant cycle of artificial insemination and reproduction in order to sustain milk production.

No no, I understand that just fine. I just thought that perhaps the quote had another possible origin, that's all.


What does the fact that one of the pieces of apparatus used during artificial insemination of animals is sometimes referred to as the 'rape rack' by those that use it suggest to you?

Play nice. I said you had a point - that means I agree with you.

Klang! - "differently evolved", not "more evolved".


No, Im quite sure humans (mostly) are more evolved.
Bigger brains, wich we use more of (most of us)...
Opposable digits.....good for turning doorknobs and such.

Meh. I like beef. I like milk. I really enjoy cheese, (especially on a pepperoni pizza). Does that make me a murderer? To some, yes.

But all vegetarians and vegans, remember this: the farming of wheat and soy kills millions of rodents, small mammals, reptiles and snakes every year. Some by pesticide usage, (unless you eat 'natural' foods), but most from the actual machinery used to harvest grain. Does this stop you from eating such foods? Perhaps, but that limits you to certain vegetables and thats it. Doesn't sound like you'd be living a very healthy lifestyle to me.


There is a way to ensure that absolutely no animals are harmed or killled in the process of growing and producing your food, and that is to do it yourself. But most vegans and vegetarians live in urban centres, (have you ever met a vegan farmer? I haven't), making it quite difficult at best.

So, in closing, anybody who doesn't eat meat or dairy products because they have issues with the way animals are being treated, then they are a hypocrite.

/rant

No no, I understand that just fine. I just thought that perhaps the quote had another possible origin, that's all. Play nice. I said you had a point - that means I agree with you.

Nah, I'm not trying to be nasty here - after all we are dealing with questions beyond our ken - exactly what the original poster meant in his dislocated manner. No offense intended.

Its not rape if you just touch the boobies!

(jk, not a pervert!)

So, in closing, anybody who doesn't eat meat or dairy products because they have issues with the way animals are being treated, then they are a hypocrite.

Nah: vegetarians/vegans seek to minimse the harm caused by their diet - thus there is no hypocrisy.

No, Im quite sure humans (mostly) are more evolved.
Bigger brains, wich we use more of (most of us)...
Opposable digits.....good for turning doorknobs and such.

The only way a species can be more evolved than another is if has a longer history of evolution than another: this basically means that all those currently existing species are more evolved than all those species which existed in the past. Co-existant species are differently, but equally evolved.

Nah: vegetarians/vegans seek to minimse the harm caused by their diet - thus there is no hypocrisy.


So then they have to eat more fruits and vegetables wich are picked by third world laborers (usually children) and paid next to nothing, and thats just fine then right?

Meh. I like beef. I like milk. I really enjoy cheese, (especially on a pepperoni pizza). Does that make me a murderer? To some, yes.

But all vegetarians and vegans, remember this: the farming of wheat and soy kills millions of rodents, small mammals, reptiles and snakes every year. Some by pesticide usage, (unless you eat 'natural' foods), but most from the actual machinery used to harvest grain. Does this stop you from eating such foods? Perhaps, but that limits you to certain vegetables and thats it. Doesn't sound like you'd be living a very healthy lifestyle to me.


There is a way to ensure that absolutely no animals are harmed or killled in the process of growing and producing your food, and that is to do it yourself. But most vegans and vegetarians live in urban centres, (have you ever met a vegan farmer? I haven't), making it quite difficult at best.

So, in closing, anybody who doesn't eat meat or dairy products because they have issues with the way animals are being treated, then they are a hypocrite.

/rant

Incorrect. By not eating meat, you are reducing the problem. By not eating or drinking dairy, you reduce the problem further. It's not ME killing the rodents and snakes. I NEED to eat something. It would be great if I could photosnythesize (gaa!! Pardon spelling) and eat dirt all day. Then nothing would die for me. But I need to eat something. By eating wheat and soy instead of cow, I reduce the problem. The fact that snakes and rodents die in fields does not make me a hipocrite. That arguement is just a cop-out. Eat meat if you want. Fine. But don't call vegetarians hipocrites. Most make their lives tougher for the benifit of other living things.

By your logic, then my veal chop is abortion.

And I didn't even eat it on toast. (I.E. Pizza)

So then they have to eat more fruits and vegetables wich are picked by third world laborers (usually children) and paid next to nothing, and thats just fine then right?

Speaking personally, as a European vegan I do not believe that I consume any more fruit or vegetable matter produced in the third world than an omnivore in the same country as me would.

So then they have to eat more fruits and vegetables wich are picked by third world laborers (usually children) and paid next to nothing, and thats just fine then right?

Of course not. Why are you assuming that one righted wrong creates and justifies another wrong? Child labor is bad. The US raping other country's economies is bad. The fact that someone eats fruit doesn't mean they don't care about these problems as well.

The only way a species can be more evolved than another is if has a longer history of evolution than another: this basically means that all those currently existing species are more evolved than all those species which existed in the past. Co-existant species are differently, but equally evolved.


If you want to get technical, fine.

Humans aere more evolved than cows.

Why?

Becuase since mankind has been able to utilize animal husbandry, we have controlled the evolution of cows.

Ask a Black Angus cow how far down the evolutionary mile its run.

If cows were left to evolve on thier own, they would be leaner, and more hardy, and no where near as stupid as they are today.

Nah, I'm not trying to be nasty here - after all we are dealing with questions beyond our ken - exactly what the original poster meant in his dislocated manner. No offense intended.

Dat's ok. Sorry, it looked like you were looking for a fight.

Of course not. Why are you assuming that one righted wrong creates and justifies another wrong? Child labor is bad. The US raping other country's economies is bad. The fact that someone eats fruit doesn't mean they don't care about these problems as well.


No, one wrong doesnt make a right, but you see, crying "Meat is murder" is just as hypocrtical, when you eat veggies and fruit that comes from a place that doers these things.

No, one wrong doesnt make a right, but you see, crying "Meat is murder" is just as hypocrtical, when you eat veggies and fruit that comes from a place that doers these things.

Hmm.. Ok. How 'bout this?

Meat isn't wrong, but refusing to eat meat is better? Would you say that vegetarianism is totally pointless?

If you want to get technical, fine.

Humans aere more evolved than cows.

Why?

Becuase since mankind has been able to utilize animal husbandry, we have controlled the evolution of cows.



Are you now arguing that selective breeding by humans of cattle means that cattle are moire highly evolved? That seems to be what the last quoted line suggests. Or is it that the evolution of cattle stopped 10,000 years ago?

Somehow I don't really think that the 10,000 years for which cattle have been domesticated, and thus their breeding controlled to some extent by human beings, counts as anything significant in evolution - they remain the same species as prior to domestication, the difference is merely at the level of breed.

10 millennia ain't a drop in the ocean to evolution.

Hmm.. Ok. How 'bout this?

Meat isn't wrong, but refusing to eat meat is better? Would you say that vegetarianism is totally pointless?


Pointless?

No.

Its merely a lifestyle choice.
I have freinds who are vegetarians.
They are all married to meat eaters.
To them its not a matter of "better" or even health, they just dont like the thought of eating animals.

I do.

Although, I refuse to eat veal, and fate grois.

Thats just wrong.

Are you now arguing that selective breeding by humans of cattle means that cattle are moire highly evolved? That seems to be what the last quoted line suggests. Or is it that the evolution of cattle stopped 10,000 years ago?

Somehow I don't really think that the 10,000 years for which cattle have been domesticated, and thus their breeding controlled to some extent by human beings, counts as anything significant in evolution - they remain the same species as prior to domestication, the difference is merely at the level of breed.

10 millennia ain't a drop in the ocean to evolution.


It is my contention that the evolution of cattle has not been allowed to run its own course.
Therefore, the evolution of the beef, and dairy cow, has been altered, and even halted for a very long time.

Pointless?

No.

Its merely a lifestyle choice.
I have freinds who are vegetarians.
They are all married to meat eaters.
To them its not a matter of "better" or even health, they just dont like the thought of eating animals.

I do.

Although, I refuse to eat veal, and fate grois.

Thats just wrong.

Ah, veal. The greatest evil of the food world. And I'll agree with the lifestyle comment. I just get a bit touchy when people say that vegetarianism is pointless because snakes and rodents die in the wild because of farmers.

Grass and not grain? So they aren't raised in an actual feedlot, right? If I'm mistaken, how can they dedicate so much land to cow grazing?

There are feedlots here. Agriculture is New Zealand's biggest industry, and our population is only four million, so there's plenty of space for grazing.

Milk isn't rape. It's just a bit of titty fondling...

Milk isn't rape. It's just a bit of titty fondling...

lol. You know the cow likes it! :fluffle: :D

lol. You know the cow likes it! :fluffle: :D

Well, it can get a bit kinky. Sometimes a cow seems to think that a golden... er, green shower is fun...

Nah: vegetarians/vegans seek to minimse the harm caused by their diet - thus there is no hypocrisy.

Note I didn't outright say all vegans/vegetarians were hypocrites. The point I was trying to make is that, most likely, being a vegan or vegetarian will not better the life of any single animal. Unless you personally buy a cow, or pig, or chicken, feed and care for it, and let it die naturally, you will not reduce the number of animals killed for human consumption.

Lawnmowerville, I don't want to know about your sordid escapades... ;)
Dalamia, even then you won't change the number of animals killed for human consumption; more are bred for the table then anyone could let die "naturally" every year.

Humans are biologically designed to consume meat; run your tongue across your teeth- feel the little sharp ones next to your incisors (the four central front teeth)? they're the canines, specially designed for ripping and tearing meat, and so are the next two in line, the premolars. All the moral sensibilities in the world will not change that.

And as for the cows, we feed them, and they feed us; quid pro quo. Yes, the way we do it could be improved, but that doesn't make the whole idea of dairy "wrong".

Now, if you don't want that steak sandwich, pass it here. And gimme the cheese.

If you ever care to visit a dairy farm, you will see the cows begin to line up, awaiting milking. They appear to not only accept but await it. They have been bred over time to produce far more milk than their calves could consume, and over a greater period of time.

Eating meat? Just look at your teeth. The front ones are canines. Guess what they are for.

Famous vegetarians? Adolf Hitler for one.

Note I didn't outright say all vegans/vegetarians were hypocrites. The point I was trying to make is that, most likely, being a vegan or vegetarian will not better the life of any single animal. Unless you personally buy a cow, or pig, or chicken, feed and care for it, and let it die naturally, you will not reduce the number of animals killed for human consumption.

It would seem that you're missing the point. Ignoring dairy for a moment...
Meat is supply and demand. There's a hell of a lot of demand, so the supply goes up. If one does not eat meat, the demand for meat goes down. Less animals are slaughtered as a result. It's an insanely small amount, but it's there nonetheless. The fact that a single cow won't benifit from this doesn't really change anything. It's like saying that someone pro-life has to adopt as many children as he/she can afford. To them, pro-life is an improvement (please, no posts on abortion!). They shouldn't have to completely solve the world's over-population problem to have their opinion be considered worthwhile.

Along the same reasoning, vegetarians and vegans shouldn't have to completely forsake their lives and become independent farmers in the name of helping the enviornment. Refusing to eat meat, to them, is an improvement. Eating meat isn't wrong by any means, but vegetarians and vegans shouldn't be looked down upon simply because they use electricity and don't have cows for pets.

I have zero respect for vegans (and their "life style" choices) on the grounds that it is impossible to be a vegan anywhere that is not a first world nation. Vegetarians are a different matter... depending on the reason they are vegetarian i respect their choice. The only reasons i really respect tho are
1) dont like the taste
2) medical (allergies, difficulty digesting etc)
3) religious

and recently a quote from my friend who just went vegetarian
4) it reminds me too much of disection in Human Anatomy classes.

Interesting aside;
It seems to us (in class) that most people who do disection inhuman anatomy end up, at the end of the class, either vegetarian or really really hungry for steak, needless to say i felt like having a steak :-)

Eh. None of this will matter when our ecosystem collapses from the sheer weight of supporting billions of meat-eating mass-consumer whores. Enjoy the meat while it lasts because your descendents will know only famine and scarcity.

I have zero respect for vegans (and their "life style" choices) on the grounds that it is impossible to be a vegan anywhere that is not a first world nation. Vegetarians are a different matter... depending on the reason they are vegetarian i respect their choice. The only reasons i really respect tho are
1) dont like the taste
2) medical (allergies, difficulty digesting etc)
3) religious

and recently a quote from my friend who just went vegetarian
4) it reminds me too much of disection in Human Anatomy classes.

Interesting aside;
It seems to us (in class) that most people who do disection inhuman anatomy end up, at the end of the class, either vegetarian or really really hungry for steak, needless to say i felt like having a steak :-)

I realize that's it nearly impossible to be veg or vegan in less fortunate nations. But why does that make vegans in first-world nations worthless? It seems like that makes Capitalism equally worthless because the entire world will never be capitalistic. Or that religion is pointless because athiests exist and will forever exist.

Eh. None of this will matter when our ecosystem collapses from the sheer weight of supporting billions of meat-eating mass-consumer whores. Enjoy the meat while it lasts because your descendents will know only famine and scarcity.

play nice. I know plenty of vegan whores! :D

.....Well, I'll try to pass on some facts that I'm aware of.

-Meat is highly inefficient in terms of land usage and general effort. We grow grain and corn to feed cows and eat the cows. I *think* the statistic is that the wheat and corn is five times as efficient. Which means a meat eater consumes five times as much "energy" than a vegetarian. That's taking into account land usage, time, man power, and anything else I'm forgeting.
.........

I have to disagree with one point here: cows are NOT fed 'grain and corn'. Not a grade of corn that is edible by human standards. You could not take the grain fed to cows and feed it to humans - it's of a very low quality. Cows can digest it because they are herbivours, and furthermore, because they have a digestive system set up to deal with that sort of food.

And we couldn't necessarily even turn the land used to grow that low grade grain over to producing grain edible by human standards - not all land is equally fertile. Some areas of land cannot sustain anything but things like grass... but guess what, the farmers who get stuck with that land can still make a living, because they can graze animals on that land.

I think that's the main thing that annoys me about vegans/vegetarians (the one's that push their agenda - I have NO problem at all with anyone who keeps it a personal belief) - they don't think about the people involved. I've come across people who say, without a hint of irony "I don't care if hundred of farmers lose their financial security, their homes, their lifestyle; I don't care if they starve to death or have to leave the country to work in the city. If that's what it takes to stop animals getting killed for meat, so be it". Basically "Fuck human, the economy, balanced diets... someone's eating a hamburger and I'll be damned if I'll let them enjoy it".

But again, people who do it for health reasons I respect, people who do it because they believe it's the best choice for them, I respect. People who sneer at me because OMG I eat mortadella? Well, they can go to hell for all I care, because it's not my fault they can't draw the line between 'personal beliefs' and 'universal morals'.

Anyway, /rant, and also http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html, because I love maddox, and he's ever so much more eloquent than me. And also http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#PETA, which is his response to a response to the above article. And woo, he has sources for his facts, so go read.

(he's also only attacking the vegetarians/vegans who push their agenda. So all you people who DON'T make a fuss when your friends order meat, you can calm down, because you actually garner respect.)

Eh. None of this will matter when our ecosystem collapses from the sheer weight of supporting billions of meat-eating mass-consumer whores. Enjoy the meat while it lasts because your descendents will know only famine and scarcity.
Don't talk through youre arse it isn't becoming.
Europe could be pretty much self sufficient (i.e produce enough to survive, rather than all items currently consumed) with no collapse.

well i find that most vegans are very pro environment and this is one of the reason that they dont eat mean/meat products... BUT to be a vegan requires a fully industrialised production base to support them and their choice (or get rid of a hell of a lot of people, nobody in a pre industrial society was ever vegan (most were vegetarian i agree))

I have zero respect for vegans (and their "life style" choices) on the grounds that it is impossible to be a vegan anywhere that is not a first world nation.

As I'm sure you're aware, the Jain religion of India has a long established tradition of non-injury which is expressed through vegetarianism and veganism which dates back over 2300 years.

I'm also sure that you're aware that it takes less resources of land to support someone on a vegan diet than on a vegetarian diet, which itself takes less resources than on an omnivorous diet. In nations other than in the first world the tendency is not to eat more meat and animal products, but less - obviously certain cultures buck this trend, but as a principle it holds true.

Vegetables, grains, pulses and fruit are all available in countries which are not part of the first world. They will generally be cheaper than meat, given that less land and water will have been used in their production - why would it be impossible for someone to live as a vegan outside the first world?

I have to disagree with one point here: cows are NOT fed 'grain and corn'. Not a grade of corn that is edible by human standards. You could not take the grain fed to cows and feed it to humans - it's of a very low quality. Cows can digest it because they are herbivours, and furthermore, because they have a digestive system set up to deal with that sort of food.

And we couldn't necessarily even turn the land used to grow that low grade grain over to producing grain edible by human standards - not all land is equally fertile. Some areas of land cannot sustain anything but things like grass... but guess what, the farmers who get stuck with that land can still make a living, because they can graze animals on that land.

I think that's the main thing that annoys me about vegans/vegetarians (the one's that push their agenda - I have NO problem at all with anyone who keeps it a personal belief) - they don't think about the people involved. I've come across people who say, without a hint of irony "I don't care if hundred of farmers lose their financial security, their homes, their lifestyle; I don't care if they starve to death or have to leave the country to work in the city. If that's what it takes to stop animals getting killed for meat, so be it". Basically "Fuck human, the economy, balanced diets... someone's eating a hamburger and I'll be damned if I'll let them enjoy it".

But again, people who do it for health reasons I respect, people who do it because they believe it's the best choice for them, I respect. People who sneer at me because OMG I eat mortadella? Well, they can go to hell for all I care, because it's not my fault they can't draw the line between 'personal beliefs' and 'universal morals'.

Anyway, /rant, and also http://maddox.xmission.com/grill.html, because I love maddox, and he's ever so much more eloquent than me. And also http://maddox.xmission.com/hatemail.cgi#PETA, which is his response to a response to the above article. And woo, he has sources for his facts, so go read.

(he's also only attacking the vegetarians/vegans who push their agenda. So all you people who DON'T make a fuss when your friends order meat, you can calm down, because you actually garner respect.)

OK. I'll give you all of that. I'm a lax vegan and Catholic, and I have never agreed with conversion or pushing your beliefs on others. People who sneer at cheese eaters should be slapped in the face with a side of beef. To be honest, though, I do think it's disappointing that your view applies to all vegans. Most don't worry about the job market because they realize that vegetarians will be the minority for several generations or more.

As an aside, I know for a fact that cows in feed lots eat corn. Maybe it's not edible for humans, but it's still a major drain on our available farmland.

In a modern industrial country it is a challenge for a vegan, as they will use public transport, the manufacture of which may have cuased the harm, explotation or death of animals. They will use and infrastructure where the vegan philosiphy has not been considerd. So in India living a 'basic' life it may be possible to be truly vegan, in the west, I'm not so sure.

SAVE THE PLANTS!!!!

Save a plant today, eat more chicken, beef and pork.


i am well aware that it takes alot of plants to raise just one cow chicken or pig but ure stupid so die and hail me ; Adolf Stalin II leader of NCJ!!
:rolleyes:

In a modern industrial country it is a challenge for a vegan, as they will use public transport, the manufacture of which may have cuased the harm, explotation or death of animals. They will use and infrastructure where the vegan philosiphy has not been considerd. So in India living a 'basic' life it may be possible to be truly vegan, in the west, I'm not so sure.

I've heard that arguement many many times. My problem with it is that it mistakes improvement with perfection. Vegans chose to make their lives tougher in the name of improving animal life. It's a small change, but at least it's the step in what they think is the right direction.

Your above statement could apply to anyone:

Christians aren't true Christians because they own material goods and don't live as beggars and vagabonds converting Jews and pagans.

Pro-life people aren't true pro-life people because people still die of causes other than old age.

The list goes on. I hope my point is clear enough. Vegans are people and threfore imperfect. It sounds like you're disclaiming a good deed because the problem remains in other forms. The world will always suck. That doesn't mean you can improve things in your own way. Vegans have chosen their way. I feel it's unfair to discredit their work simply because animals die all the time.

As I'm sure you're aware, the Jain religion of India has a long established tradition of non-injury which is expressed through vegetarianism and veganism which dates back over 2300 years.

I'm also sure that you're aware that it takes less resources of land to support someone on a vegan diet than on a vegetarian diet, which itself takes less resources than on an omnivorous diet. In nations other than in the first world the tendency is not to eat more meat and animal products, but less - obviously certain cultures buck this trend, but as a principle it holds true.

Vegetables, grains, pulses and fruit are all available in countries which are not part of the first world. They will generally be cheaper than meat, given that less land and water will have been used in their production - why would it be impossible for someone to live as a vegan outside the first world?

well according to this site: http://www.ops.org/scrtec/india/jainism.html they are vegetarians (not vegans), but i dont know how accurate it is...

You say it takes less resources to be on a vegan diet than on a vege than on an omnivore... i disagree with the first part of that, on the grounds that every vegan i know (IRL) takes diet supplement pills, the second half is probably but i dont think it is much more effecient (this second bit is just my baseless opinion at the moment) Most such cultures eat meat whenever they can - they just cant afford it often (time and money issues).

The final part: because of the diet supplements

OK. I'll give you all of that. I'm a lax vegan and Catholic, and I have never agreed with conversion or pushing your beliefs on others. People who sneer at cheese eaters should be slapped in the face with a side of beef. To be honest, though, I do think it's disappointing that your view applies to all vegans. Most don't worry about the job market because they realize that vegetarians will be the minority for several generations or more.

As an aside, I know for a fact that cows in feed lots eat corn. Maybe it's not edible for humans, but it's still a major drain on our available farmland.

Oh, it doesn't at all. I must have left a generalisation in there by mistake - I know for certain that there are vegans and vegetarians who are informed, have considered their diet properly and are doing it for well-thought out reasons. And I know there are many who wouldn't hastly make a throw-away comment about animals lives being more important than the well-fare of humans.

My post was meant to be aimed only at those that annoy me (namely the converters). It's basically my view on most things of this nature (along with politics and religion) - as long as I'm not sneered at because I don't share your moral code, I have no problem with your views or tastes (even if I disagree and get into debates, it's not something personal).

And I wasn't aware cows were fed corn - I'd only ever read about grain. I'd imagine the corn would still be poor quality, because farming is a business, and economically it would make more sense to feed the animals the lower grade plants (because they are better able to digest it and make use of the resources). But I still disagree that that constitutes a 'major drain on available farmland'. Chances are that farmland isn't fertile enough to grow anything of a quiality high enough for human consumption, so farmers use it to support their feed animals which they *can* sell. Remember, farming is a business - it's unlikely farmers would allow land to 'go to waste', since it's their livelyhood.

Wow, another long post. Hope I cleared up the 'my views on vegans' thing at least :p

Oh, it doesn't at all. I must have left a generalisation in there by mistake - I know for certain that there are vegans and vegetarians who are informed, have considered their diet properly and are doing it for well-thought out reasons. And I know there are many who wouldn't hastly make a throw-away comment about animals lives being more important than the well-fare of humans.

My post was meant to be aimed only at those that annoy me (namely the converters). It's basically my view on most things of this nature (along with politics and religion) - as long as I'm not sneered at because I don't share your moral code, I have no problem with your views or tastes (even if I disagree and get into debates, it's not something personal).

And I wasn't aware cows were fed corn - I'd only ever read about grain. I'd imagine the corn would still be poor quality, because farming is a business, and economically it would make more sense to feed the animals the lower grade plants (because they are better able to digest it and make use of the resources). Wow, another long post. Hope I cleared up the 'my views on vegans' thing at least :p


Cool. We may now consider the inquiry formally closed with a happy ending, and you get a hug. :fluffle: And you're probably right about the corn thing. Apparently, red meat gets a lot of its flavor from what an animal eats. Americans like corn-fed cows, I guess. The sad thing is that a cow's system is made for grass. So they get sick a lot. That could also be due to the fact that the corn is most likey very cheap.

Just a thought: If the grain/corn/whatever that cattle eat was suitable for sale and human consumption, there would be no cattle ranchers whatsoever. The money they would make selling the corn/grain/whatever would be much more than the money made by selling the cattle eating the grain/corn/whatever.

Farmers aren't stupid, in fact they are some of the most economical and environmentally-friendly people I know.

Just a thought: If the grain/corn/whatever that cattle eat was suitable for sale and human consumption, there would be no cattle ranchers whatsoever. The money they would make selling the corn/grain/whatever would be much more than the money made by selling the cattle eating the grain/corn/whatever.

Farmers aren't stupid, in fact they are some of the most economical and environmentally-friendly people I know.

That's true, farmers do rock. I don't know advanced economics very well, but coorporate policy may be having an impact. Agricultural coorportations have put a lot of small-time farmers and ranchers out of business. I'm not disagreeing with you, but it may be possible that farmers do not have much say in where their food goes.

Totally on the By the Wayness: I actually don't overly care if someone lives a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, its a matter of personal choice. I'm just tired of being called a murderer because I eat meat. Animals will die in the process of getting food from a farm to our mouths almost every time.

Totally on the By the Wayness: I actually don't overly care if someone lives a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, its a matter of personal choice. I'm just tired of being called a murderer because I eat meat. Animals will die in the process of getting food from a farm to our mouths almost every time.

The last sentance confuses me. But that doesn't matter.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm equally tired of being called a hipocrite because I don't eat meat. The problem, as always, originates with dumb people, and you're not a murderer.

Just a thought: If the grain/corn/whatever that cattle eat was suitable for sale and human consumption, there would be no cattle ranchers whatsoever. The money they would make selling the corn/grain/whatever would be much more than the money made by selling the cattle eating the grain/corn/whatever.

Not neccessarily: people (in general) like the taste of meat, and thus are prepared to pay a premium for it.

"meat is still murder, dairy is still rape" keeps ringing in my head. i just wanna know if goats and cows make more milk then they need. cuz, i mean sure it'd be rape if we take away their calves and steal their milk, but is that what happens? a few mothers are allowed to feed their calves and kids and the rest get their babies taken away to be slaughtered and for the rest of the year until their milk runs dry they get milked by horrible greedy hands. (efficiency is the key!) the animals are reduced to nothing but machines that supply the world's dairy companies. sure there are farmers that treat their animals with kindness but it doesn't change their destinies - they still come to the same ends. so do animals deserve to be used like this just because they don't possess the kind of sentience that we do? fuck - no. so what am i, a vegan now? but i never feel guilty when i'm eating meat or drinking milk. so maybe i have to settle for being a hypocrite.

Yes... and no.
First of all, yes animals and plants are machines that produce food for us. In order to do so we have bred them through many centuries so they no longer resembles anything in nature. A modern cow would not be able to survive for long in a hostile environment and cereal grasses have seeds that weigh too much to be spread effectively.
And, no. It is not rape or murder. This phenomenon is also called "antropomorphism" and is actually quite understandable. It short it means that we use human emotions and/or terms to describe something that isn't human. We do so in a futile attempt to understand everything that surrounds us. Grass cannot be "happy", a dove cannot be "confused" and a cow cannot be "raped". We have another subset of words to describe these events.
Naturally I do not wish to dictate what exactly you should or should not call it, but remember you have absolutely no idea how and what a cow feels. A cow being slaughtered may have a similar emotion as you get when you eat vanilla.
As a consumer I attempt to purchase products where the subject has been treated with at least a minimum of decency, but I do so solely for my own purpose. I bear no illusions that the turnip or cow is somehow grateful to me. It is dead before it is born anyhow.

Who ever's taking 'meat is murder and dairy is rape' so seriously need to plant their tongue in their cheek when they listen to Propagandhi.

Additionally if everyone stopped eating meat we'd still need to kill all the farm animals because we couldn't afford to keep them.

i mean sure it'd be rape if we take away their calves and steal their milk

Nope. Dairy'd be rape if, and only if, you had to engage in forcable sex with said animals. While there may be a few dairy farmers who do so, the vast majority do not. (Meat is murder is trickier)