NationStates Jolt Archive

Post and vote if you support
or dont support an embargo
on Cuba, and any othe views
you may have.

In the past, Cuba's made some really dumb mistakes. Still, I fail to see how national squalor is the solution. Let 'em trade. At best, the country will start getting on its feet again and maybe even hate us a bit less. At the worst, we'll deal with fewer immigrants.

The problem with Cuba its not the cuban people
is the cuban government, is the cuban dictatorship.

Cuba's got one of the most Iron-fisted dictatorships I know of...it ranks up there with North Korea, and the old Iraq.

Though the embargo truely cuts deep into the people of Cuba, the intention was to show censure for past events prepetrated by the government, ie Castro.

As the people have not risen up and removed the ancient, and unkillable dictator they helped put into power, I see no reason that the united states should help turn their tiny island nation into a powerhouse of turism and tropical exports.

They used to have the best beaches, resorts, and cigars, and the peple choose to throw it all away. The ones that didn't, fled to here, and have been geting shot down by MIG-29's held together by baleing wire and chewing gum ever since.

Let 'em rot in the squalor of their making and chosing.

The Cuban people's lot is really not that different from before Castro. Before their revolution, they were basically ruled by US corporations and a few got wealthy while the rest lived in squalor. Not much as changed, indicating that the embargo hasn't really had much effect.

The original reason for the embargo was to destabilize its government by hurting its economy... the fact that it has completely failed should be blindingly obvious to everyone.

How many US Presidents has Fidel Castro lasted through again? Nine?

Thats like saying that Saddam out lasted 4 presidents... uhm that doesnt mean he should still be there. And if makes his job harder...

Lets say destablization was the true agenda, and the overt excuse was censure.

Oh, and let me guess, there were never any missile sites constructed, like there were never any WMD in Iraq?

Embargos rarely work. It just punishes the people. Adds support to the oppressing government's cause as it gives them an enemy to focus on rather than domestic strife. Its not like they are much of a threat militarily. I just don't see what is gained by it.

No dictatorship fewer immigrants,
more trade - the dictatorship stays in power, more control.

Oh why did you have to use the word Iraq? :(

Dictatorships are a vicious cycle. Once in power, the only real solution is to forcably remove them. This usually just set the Remover up as the next dictator, or an occupier.

Everything else overt that is done just allows the dictator to strengthen his stranglehold on a populace. Catch-22

Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq Iraq IrAq iRaQ IRaQ IraQ IrAq IRAq IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ...
funny word actually...

Iraq Iraq Iraq

But Castro already is very much in control, trade is not going to affect that too much. The benefits to their people far outweigh the drawbacks. Like most things it is an image thing. Can't appear weak on something like communism no matter how stale it seems.


Last I checked one of the US's heaviest trading allies is China

I think comparing castro to hussein is more than a little unfair. Castro has done a lot of good things for the Cuban people. They have one of the best health systems in the world (longer life expectancy than the US) and a great education system. Economically they would be just as well off as any other banana/sugar republic if it wasnt for the embargo. The anti Cuba stance of the US establishment is purely a hangover from the days when the US propped up Batista and serves no good purpose for Cubans or Americans. No dictatorship fewer immigrants,
more trade - the dictatorship stays in power, more control.
dont you think more economic prosperity/stability would reduce the number of immigrants?

If I were a cuban citizen and I am a native cuban,
now american citizen, If I disagred with the government
I would be watched over by neighboorhood commitees
for the defense of the revoluntion.

1. I would not be allowed a home computer
2. I would be paid in pesos the national currency
and made to buy certain goods only in dollars or euros
a currency I do not earn, sent to me by my cuban american
or european relatives.
3.I would not be allowed to stay in my nations hotels
with Pesos, dollars or euros.
4. My cuban and european relatives would be allowed to stay
in my nations hotels with dollars or euros.
5. I could not own a small family business, let me clarify that statement
the government allows a family business under so much regulation
and opens them and closes them at will.

Dictatorships are a vicious cycle. Once in power, the only real solution is to forcably remove them. This usually just set the Remover up as the next dictator, or an occupier.

Everything else overt that is done just allows the dictator to strengthen his stranglehold on a populace. Catch-22You are right about the perils of intervention but there is actually quite a simple solution to the problem you describe, its called "constructive dialogue". I point to the example of Libya if you want a case to refer to.

Don't think I ever mentioned Communism as a source of the problem... did I? It really is a problem with dictatorships that our current societal bent just can't stomach.

China is our largest trade gap. We don't have a huge problem with them trade wise, only with them militarily. Ca't blame us or anyone for that matter really, eventually that many people will wnat more room, and NO ONE has ever made that many bullets cummulatively. Everyone will lose when China decides they want the territory.

But, Cuba's embargos should not be lifted until Castro dies, or the people chuck him out. And as he's been in power since dirt was invented, we may have to wait his decaying clone butt out.

If I were a cuban citizen and I am a native cuban,
now american citizen, If I disagred with the government
I would be watched over by neighboorhood commitees
for the defense of the revoluntion.

1. I would not be allowed a home computer
2. I would be paid in pesos the national currency
and made to buy certain goods only in dollars or euros
a currency I do not earn, sent to me by my cuban american
or european relatives.
3.I would not be allowed to stay in my nations hotels
with Pesos, dollars or euros.
4. My cuban and european relatives would be allowed to stay
in my nations hotels with dollars or euros.
5. I could not own a small family business, let me clarify that statement
the government allows a family business under so much regulation
and opens them and closes them at will.Those facts are all quite unfortunate and Cuba no doubt has problems. Having had strict economic sanctions for about 40 years now, dont you think it might be time to look for an alternative means of applying pressure to the Cuban government?

is to get rid of the dictatorship that controls the nation
through neiboorhood commitees for the defense of
the revolution that report you to the police if you
disagree with any government policy,
more dollars and euros and that government stays in power.
Please understand how much longer do we have to plead
with the world to treat the dictador like a dictador.

Don't think I ever mentioned Communism as a source of the problem... did I? It really is a problem with dictatorships that our current societal bent just can't stomach.

China is our largest trade gap. We don't have a huge problem with them trade wise, only with them militarily. Ca't blame us or anyone for that matter really, eventually that many people will wnat more room, and NO ONE has ever made that many bullets cummulatively. Everyone will lose when China decides they want the territory.

But, Cuba's embargos should not be lifted until Castro dies, or the people chuck him out. And as he's been in power since dirt was invented, we may have to wait his decaying clone butt out.
I never mentioned communism either. What is your 'societal bent' and what makes Cuba a special case when compared to other dictatorships (Myanmar, Libya, China, Pakistan..... I can name more if you want)

Its funny how some dictatorships are intolerable and some are okay.

is to get rid of the dictatorship that controls the nation
through neiboorhood commitees for the defense of
the revolution that report you to the police if you
disagree with any government policy,
more dollars and euros and that government stays in power.
Please understand how much longer do we have to plead
with the world to treat the dictador like a dictador.
Having sworn your allegience to the American Republic (and i think they take that kind of thing very seriously) I assume you are talking about the dictatorship of Dubya. Great news, the election is not far off.

I guess in my mind I break it down like this

Is the current embargo effective? not really

Is it causing more suffering than good. yes

Its funny how some dictatorships are intolerable and some are okay.
Apparently it makes sense if your society is bent.

ugh.. first Iraq, now someone has invoked the unholy name of W :)

It really has nothing to do with whether the embargo is "working" or not. Nations should choose to do business with whomever they want, and if a nation does not share our values in any way, wh should shut them out. And BTW, Libyan dialogue came during the embargo, and the embargo was nto lifted until Libya made concrete steps to behave like civilized members of the world community. :sniper:

It really has nothing to do with whether the embargo is "working" or not. Nations should choose to do business with whomever they want, and if a nation does not share our values in any way, wh should shut them out.But if any other country tried to do this to America you would invade them right? I'm thinking of Grenada and Guatemala off the top of my head as examples of this.


And BTW, Libyan dialogue came during the embargo, and the embargo was nto lifted until Libya made concrete steps to behave like civilized members of the world community.
This is true and I think Cuba is an excellent member of the international community. Go find an aids hospital in sub saharan africa and check out the nationality of the doctors. You will find that the majority are Cubans. This is because Cuba does not rely on private charity to send doctors overseas on humanitarian missions. I am also assuming that this 'world community' is the same one that GWB ignored completely and acted against the wishes of when he invaded Iraq. (check it out Jyrkiland - i got both into the one sentence).

Why don't we just hit for the cycle and throw in Florida and Vietnam. :)

I specifically commented on other dictatorships, naming North Korea, and old Iraq. If you'd like, I can continue listing all night the rest of the catalogue of countries. Most of the world is run by dictatorships. Lets get it straight though, China is not a Dictatorship. It is an oppressive regime, much like the USSR right before it collapsed in the late 80's.

The ex-cuban, recently american is trying to point out that opening up trade with an dictatorship government doesn't roust the government. And the money doesn't trickle down, ask the palestinians where the 17 Million in international aid goes? Private bank accounts in London for Arafats wife and children...

And, the problem I have with the majority of this debate is that the majority of Cubans remaining in cuba today chose the leader they have, and decided later it might not have been the best idea. Now they won't do anything about it. Myanmar and Pakistan, not the same, warlord takes power and won't let go.

Potatoes...PoTAToes:)

Myland, I agree with you to a point. Its one thing to disagree with policies and not deal with them(skirting hipocracies that are rife with countries practicing this) but you are doing more damage to their people than their government.

If you want Cuba to go from being a communist country to a capitalist one, then drop the embargo. Simple as that.

Problem is, the movers and shakers in the Cuban exile community don't just want Castro gone--they want a return to the days when Batista ruled the roost, when they were the landowners and the powerbrokers, a return to the power of the United Fruit Company, and if you ask me, that's very little improvement over Castro.

Cuba would be better off with a democratic government, but neither Castro nor the exile community have any real interest in that. Why the US still gives a rat's ass about what happened 40 years ago on that island is beyond me, but we do. That said, we ought to drop the embargo completely. We give China most favored nation trade status, for christ's sake, and they're far worse with human rights than Castro.

Thats like saying that Saddam out lasted 4 presidents... uhm that doesnt mean he should still be there. And if makes his job harder...

Lets say destablization was the true agenda, and the overt excuse was censure.

Oh, and let me guess, there were never any missile sites constructed, like there were never any WMD in Iraq?

1. The difference between Hussein (I refer to politicians by their last names) and Castro is that Hussein was our buddy until he embarrassed us by invading Kuwait.

2. The embargo doesn't make Castro's job harder. It in fact makes it easier. Why? Because he can simply blame his country's problems on the US and divert attention to the US embargo.

3. Yes, destabilization was the true agenda. And if you can't see that then you're blind beyond words. We wanted Cuba to go back to being run by United Fruit

4. We put the embargo in place before the Soviets built missiles there. I don't know why you think I would deny something the Soviets admitted. Castro was a Soviet puppet until the Soviet Union dissolved.

5. There were WMD in Iraq at one point, but apparently they gone by the time we invaded... otherwise... where are they? [looks around sarcastically]

6. This is about Cuba, not Iraq. If you want to bring Iraq into it, what about China? They oppress their people, and have WMD. Why aren't we invading them? What about North Korea? They oppress their people, and also have WMD, where's the invasion? What about Pakistan? They're a brutal military dictatorship with nukes? The list could go on and on. But this is about Cuba

The fact is, the embargo really helps no one and hurts the cubans. It may perhaps even strengthen Castro. He'll be in power until he dies anyway, embargo or no embargo.

Cuba's got one of the most Iron-fisted dictatorships I know of...it ranks up there with North Korea, and the old Iraq.

Though the embargo truely cuts deep into the people of Cuba, the intention was to show censure for past events prepetrated by the government, ie Castro.

As the people have not risen up and removed the ancient, and unkillable dictator they helped put into power, I see no reason that the united states should help turn their tiny island nation into a powerhouse of turism and tropical exports.

They used to have the best beaches, resorts, and cigars, and the peple choose to throw it all away. The ones that didn't, fled to here, and have been geting shot down by MIG-29's held together by baleing wire and chewing gum ever since.

Let 'em rot in the squalor of their making and chosing.
But the squalor isn't of their own making and choosing is it? It's the making and choosing of the US because they don't agree with the government policies. So what right does the US have to do this? As far I'm aware, Cuba hasn't been a world-threat (other than in Olympic boxing) for the last 30 years.
Has it not occurred to you that perhaps if the blockade is lifted and the populaces lives get easier, they might decide they don't want/need Castro? It makes as much sense as the blockade.

Why attack me? Read my posts, I keep saying the Chinese Gov't is bad folks. The North Koreans are bad folks. The Pakistanis are bad folks.

The embargoes were in place before the bay of pigs. Yup. So?

I did agree that the true purpose was destablization. Hidden behind a thin veil of censure. Can't read? Not my fault.

Was this topic about Cuba? My bad I must have used my analogies incorrectly when quoting about oppresive regimes. Or perhaps it was when I mentioned the embargo that I lost sight?

Correct in that Hussein was our buddy. So was Pineapple Face. So was Pinochet until it went sour. So were most of the nasty dictator who stood against communism through the 50's and 60's, 70's and 80's. We stood againt one in Cuba, and not against all the baddies of the world. Look, I don't make the policy bub, I just gave my opinion about the embargo.

I think the embargo as it currently stands is a good thing. I Wouldn't want the previous capitalist monoply back in power, because it wouldn't take into account 50 years of history. I wouldn't just give land back to people who owned it before anyone alive can remember. It sets bad precident.

I think that citizens of the United States should call themselves American, because we took the name first. They shouldn't be Cuban-American, African-American, or Asian-American. Just American.

And I'm sorry you won't get you wish of seeing Cuba run by United Fruit. Because I never made myself part of that "we", but you obviously did.

free its political prisoners and let them
participate in elections, allow the people
economic freedoms before having good
relations with other nations.

just like all european nations
have to meet a certain standard
of democratic rights to belong
to the european union and
be able to trade openly with them.

I'm in two minds:

a) the embargo is a good thing. It allows Castro to say to his people "Look at those American bastards - they can't get over history and they're bitter because they haven't beaten us, so they are punishing you, the people." It's allowing him to hold the country together by saying "we may be the little guys, but we aren't the BAD guys". It gets cuba sympathy from other, non-communism-hysteric countries.

but

b) it makes the people suffer. It makes America look like shit to the world (can you say 'schoolyard bully'? Not an impression you should take pride in giving), and that impression is often unfairly cast onto the people, even though the blame lies with the government. It causes more people to flee cuba, which weakens it, and gives more ammunition to the Commie-phobes ("look! even the people are fleeing!").

So I don't know what to think really. I guess I *could* look at as 'I win either way'. But it feels more like I lose either way.

Le sigh.

Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms were fanatical supporters of the embargo. Surely that's good enough argument for scrapping it.

I think thats actually three points. one pro communist, one anti american, and one anti communist.

And Strom was around forever, and is dead now. You can't on a dead guy, he can't lift a finger to defend himself.

Cuba's got one of the most Iron-fisted dictatorships I know of...it ranks up there with North Korea, and the old Iraq.

They used to have the best beaches, resorts, and cigars, and the peple choose to throw it all away. The ones that didn't, fled to here, and have been geting shot down by MIG-29's held together by baleing wire and chewing gum ever since.

Let 'em rot in the squalor of their making and chosing.
I agree that Castro is too authoritarian, but it's a huge exaggeration to put him with Saddam Hussein and Kim-Jong-Il.

They still do have those things, no doubt. But maybe they thought that equality was more important than holiday resorts? It didn't work out like that thanks to the US embargo and the US terrorist campaign. Your "MIG-29's" comment is wrong. Cuba never attacked America in response to the CIA-directed terrorist campaign against Cuba. This terrorist campaign started in May 1959, long beofre the 1962 Missile threat.

Why let them rot in the squalor that the US decided to hand to them?

It really has nothing to do with whether the embargo is "working" or not. Nations should choose to do business with whomever they want, and if a nation does not share our values in any way, wh should shut them out. And BTW, Libyan dialogue came during the embargo, and the embargo was nto lifted until Libya made concrete steps to behave like civilized members of the world community. :sniper:
No, according to the free trade idea that US leaders claim to support, governments don't decide who to trade with, individuals and companies do. What right has the US government to deprive its companies of the Cuban market?

Whatever about Libya, the embargo against Cuba hasn't worked. By that I mean it has failed in its goal to cause regime change in Cuba. It has failed to coerce Cuba to "share America's values."

And what is it with you people and :sniper: in your posts?

OK, please excuse my ignorance.

What international laws has/have Cuba broken in relation to the United States which necessitate or justify an embargo?

Cuba's got one of the most Iron-fisted dictatorships I know of...it ranks up there with North Korea, and the old Iraq.
except the reason cuba's attempt at a communist dictatorship doesnt work is they DONT HAVE MONEY, and guess why they dont: us.

Though the embargo truely cuts deep into the people of Cuba, the intention was to show
rofl, you think an embargo hurts castro? think again, castro couldnt care less, he has like 3 sets of clothrs and smokes cuban cigars, he doesnt need shit

As the people have not risen up and removed the ancient, and unkillable dictator they helped put into power, I see no reason that the united states should help turn their tiny island nation into a powerhouse of turism and tropical exports.
basically: because we cant kill him, and he is no threat to us, its perfectly ok to keep squeezing the people of cuba



Let 'em rot in the squalor of their making and chosing.
bullshit, the only squalor their is US perpetuated

free its political prisoners and let them
participate in elections, allow the people
economic freedoms before having good
relations with other nations.

just like all european nations
have to meet a certain standard
of democratic rights to belong
to the european union and
be able to trade openly with them.
1) cuba isnt the eurpean union, or wanting to be in any union
2) how can there be economic freedom with no ability to have a well greased economy?
3) democracy isnt all its cracked up to be, its good yes, but there are alot of idiots in power, and power hungry maniacs. the only reason WE havnt turned into mush is because of the constitution, you want me to start listing corrupt democratic governments?

OK, please excuse my ignorance.

What international laws has/have Cuba broken in relation to the United States which necessitate or justify an embargo?
it made them mad 40 years ago and has posed no threat to them. thats why. why do you think we are trading with china and starting to with the vietnamese? because they are dangerous and china is big

it made them mad 40 years ago and has posed no threat to them. thats why. why do you think we are trading with china and starting to with the vietnamese? because they are dangerous and china is big

See, I thought that might be the case, but then I doubted myself.

Your "MIG-29's" comment is wrong. Cuba never attacked America in response to the CIA-directed terrorist campaign against Cuba.

Wow, nothing like left feild, kinda lonely out there? I was referring to the MIG shootdown of the BTR planes. Happened about 96 or something like that.

The population did choose the squalor they live in. They choose to rise up againt the regime they had, and outlaw personal possesions, put a dictator into power of their chosing, and leave him there. I put all dictators in the same category. Just flat out wrong.

And perhaps, the embargo is due to the expropriation of US properties when the Cuban people revolt and threw-out the prior government.

Wow, nothing like left feild, kinda lonely out there? I was referring to the MIG shootdown of the BTR planes. Happened about 96 or something like that.

The population did choose the squalor they live in. They choose to rise up againt the regime they had, and outlaw personal possesions, put a dictator into power of their chosing, and leave him there. I put all dictators in the same category. Just flat out wrong.

And perhaps, the embargo is due to the expropriation of US properties when the Cuban people revolt and threw-out the prior government.
walk into the light, no, dont turn around, keep going into the light, yes i know this is a subway tunnel just keep going

The poll indicates a no-win situation;

1) Continue the embargo; Castro's grip on power is secured by both a scapegoat for the nations problems in the US and a defined agreement from the US never to invade Cuba (Cuban Missile Crisis)

2) End the embargo; the economy of Cuba will boom as it recieves American investment. The government will then have greater means to maintain control of the country and resistance to Castro will decrease as the lives of ordinary Cubans improves overall.

The European Union pratices constructive engament
by trading with them and as it has gotten somewhat tired
of seing no change, it has cut off some minor aid, and
called on the cuban government to release political prisoners
hold democratic elections and give the people economic freedoms
while continueing to trade, with no positive results.

The Clinton administration practised constructive engament
callled calibrated steps, with no success.

The reason the embargo has not worked is
it is not international like the one against South Africa,
in Cuba s case cuba s main trade is with the Eu, Canada,
Mexico, if these nations would joing an embargo the government
would not survive from withing.

The Clinton administration practised constructive engament callled calibrated steps, with no success.You know, I used to believe that until I started reading Cuba Confidential by Ann Louise Bardach. Clinton gave the exile community everything they wanted as far as the embargo was concerned, tightened travel and remission restrictions, and established the hideously unfair "wet-foot, dry-foot" policy in exchange for the exile community's support. He got it in 1996, but lost it for Gore in 2000 over the Elian Gonzales freakshow. Clinton was a better friend to the exiles than any other recent President, and more's the shame for it.

1. About 100,000 Cuban Americans ( mostly the same)
travel to Cuba each year to visit their relatives
and that has not changed cuban government polycy
on how it treats its own people.

2. Over 1,000,000 Foreing tourists visit Cuba each year
where tourist apartheid is practised, and that has not
changed cuban government polycy
on how it treats its own people.

3. I agree if the USA government allows Cuban Americans
to visit Cuba, it should allow American tourists, its not fair,
but allowing american tourists will give the cuban government
hundreds of millions of dollars or Billion + and Euros from
europeans and it wont change cuban government polycy
on how it treats its own people

4. Dollars and Euros are what the cuban government needs most.

Left or Right, will not change on thier own
unless presured by economic embargos
like Libya on security issues for lack of a better word right now.

In Cubas case, the government may not
change its polycys anyway
but I dont think the government
can survive from withing
wiout the help of the dollar and euros.

They need american credits, dollars and euros.

I never mentioned communism either. What is your 'societal bent' and what makes Cuba a special case when compared to other dictatorships (Myanmar, Libya, China, Pakistan..... I can name more if you want)

China not a dictorship. Its a one party state. There is a difference.

Have their faults to, If no Cuban American had sent
a single dollar after 1994 when it was made legal

The so-called dollar stores that sell in dollars and euros
a currency the cuban people do not earn, at least
the so-called dollars stores would be called peso stores
and the cuban government would pay the people in pesos
and charge the people in pesos their national currency.

except the reason cuba's attempt at a communist dictatorship doesnt work is they DONT HAVE MONEY, and guess why they dont: us.

rofl, you think an embargo hurts castro? think again, castro couldnt care less, he has like 3 sets of clothrs and smokes cuban cigars, he doesnt need shit

basically: because we cant kill him, and he is no threat to us, its perfectly ok to keep squeezing the people of cuba

bullshit, the only squalor their is US perpetuated
I pretty much agree with you on all of these points except for the fact that Uncle Fidel has actually given up cigars nowadays. Doctors orders ro soemthing.

China not a dictorship. Its a one party state. There is a difference.
I am not sure that distinction is important or real in any way whatsoever. One party states are exactly the same as dictatorships. Stalin was a dictator but the soviet union was a one party state. I would also say Mao was a dictator in exactly the same formal party system that exists in China today. For that matter, the Communist Party of Cuba (780,000 members as of 1997) officially governs Cuba through the central committee and the Politburo.

I pretty much agree with you on all of these points except for the fact that Uncle Fidel has actually given up cigars nowadays. Doctors orders ro soemthing.


I am not sure that distinction is important or real in any way whatsoever. One party states are exactly the same as dictatorships. Stalin was a dictator but the soviet union was a one party state. I would also say Mao was a dictator in exactly the same formal party system that exists in China today. For that matter, the Communist Party of Cuba (780,000 members as of 1997) officially governs Cuba through the central committee and the Politburo.

The difference in China's case (after mao) is that if the president of China decided to go to declare all out war againist the United States, he would be removed from power from with in the party. Plus they change leaders every so often, There has been 3 presidents since mao. Where as in Cuba or Iraq( before saddams fall) and Stalins russia, the same person stays in power and if he decides to go to war then the country goes to war.