NationStates Jolt Archive

Palestine…The Truth

Imagine that it is 1066 when William the Conqueror was victorious at the Battle of Hastings. And you are the workforce of England. The farmers who fought at the battle of Hastings risked death to save your nation but without success. However, England became a free nation after the tyranny of the Normans.

Now imagine 1066 with a difference. It is 1967. The Normans aren’t the army you’re fighting. Imagine you were fighting an army far superior to the Norman army. An army so large it is 1 million men strong so well equipped with weapons which are able to kill hundreds of innocent men by pressing a single red button. An army so powerful that an English army of 2 million men; would not be able to strike one blow against this one army. Imagine that this army crushed the English army at 1967 but did not let a single English soldier flee, unnecessarily killing the fleeing English soldiers who would be terrified for their lives. Imagine that this one army held occupation of England to the current day. 37 years of occupation, from 1967 to 2004 and still counting. Imagine this army has stolen a majority of England. Let’s say all of it except a strip of land and London which is shared by the people of this army and with the strip of land being miles away, isolated from London.

What if these people who have occupied us for 37 years have put us through a whole 37 years of pain, agony and oppression? What if our army only consists of children aged 7 – 18; equipped with only two weapons; their fists and the stones on the ground. Simply terrorizing the life of the English people.

Well…that would never happen would it? As we live in a civilized world where all the armies of this world would immediately fight for the rights of the people England. Am I right? NO

This IS happening in the world. It is the war between Israel and Palestine. Palestine has been occupied under force by the Israeli’s for 37 years. 37 years of oppression and hardship.

What would you think when trying to fight this army for your nation you stumble across these statistics? HAND OUT STATS; proof that this nation you are fighting against is gaining £3,117,271,323.81 per year off the country who is meant to be fighting a war against terrorism. The so-called ‘liberation army’ who say they will fight till the very end of terrorism, is consciously paying for it to happen! This army is basically paying for the oppression and occupation of the Palestinians. Are they the liberators or are they the oppressors? Does this sound like a liberation army to you?

Or does it seem to sound like its unreal as when we turn on the TV or read the newspapers we see headlines like:

“Palestinian Gunman kills Israeli motorist”

If you look at the statistics I have handed out, my statistics contradict the thoughts that the author of this article tries to implant into our heads. For example, the regular recurrences of headlines like these attempts to embed ideas into our mind to believe that the Palestinians are the ones oppressing the Israeli’s. Not once in that article does it broaden the focus and compare the killings, the U.S assistance, the injuries or the child mortality rate between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Only then do you see the whole truth. And TV isn’t any better at portraying the truth. When a Palestinian blows up an Israeli bus, he is called a terrorist, but when an Israeli soldier aims and shoots at the eyes and heads of Palestinian children, he is a soldier defending himself. When six, seven, or even eight Palestinians are killed each day, the story is usually hidden at the end of the newspaper or does not even make the evening news. But when an Israeli dies, it is on every single major television network and all over the newspapers.


If in 1066 an English person were to fight against occupation would that person be considered a terrorist? Or would he be considered brave and if he succeeded in fighting off the Normans would he be considered heroic and the liberator of the land?

In Palestine many Palestinians fight against the Israelis for the same reason. Are they considered terrorists? Or are they also considered by the general public to be brave, heroic.

Thank You

Of course, ask an Israeli (I have an Israeli friend) and they'll give you a hardluck sob story about how they MUST keep these Palestineans in check, so they don't die - at the cost of the freedom and liberation of these people! These people are considered terrorists because they are fighting for freedom and livlihood.

Victors, not losers write history.

It's the way it's always been.

About your little example with the norman conquest and the english trying to fight them off, IF on the other hand, the English were still under foreign control to this day, then you know? They WOULD be called terrorists.

Face it, the two words mean the same thing, just one is the victor's way of putting it, the other is the loser's. Why bicker over a choice of words?

Neither side, however, is justified in the murder of innocents, so I would contend that both Israel and Palestine are in the wrong and something must be done to either forcibly separate them or allow them to live in relative peace.

yes i agree with your story-

yet there is a problem.. america and britain actually volentarily decided to tear palistine to pices at the end of WW2 to make the world's first nation set up soley for religiouse perpouses. Palistine was a subject of the british empire btw. The jews at the end of WW2 did not ask for their own nation as jewdeism is just a religion.. you're a jew from frence.. you're french not israeli.. so the jews did not ask for their own nation because they already had their nation!. America and Britain were to blame for carving up israel and creating all these problems by creating this country in the middle of a totally muslim palestinian territory. the fanatical jews that moved there were no invading army but protected by greater powers (the US and UK).

it is said that the state was created for rascist perposes like getting rid of many jews in their countries and others.

anyway i totally blame the US and UK

the story should be altered to say "the normans withdrew and settled a mix of foreign people on the english land, these people still today have total support from atleast one half of the norman invasion force"

**

ps. the english had won an astounding victory against a viking invasion force the day before the normans ivaded and exaustion was a problem against the normans even when 2/3 of the time the english were beating the normans..

Both sides have got some 'splainin' to do.

NOT AGAIN!!!
*bangs head repeatedly against keyboard*
People, this topic has been discussed more times than BushVKerry and is getting really old really fast. No one will change anyones mind no matter what is said, so why bother? There are currently I think four topics dealing with the same topic! Find something new to debate or raise a new point about the conflict.

Heres an idea- two wrongs dont make a right.
Throwing stones at men with guns doesnt drive them away, it gets you shot,
and it doesnt make you a hero it makes you a silly little bastard that gets shot for throwing rocks at soldiers.
Guns vs. Rocks
Guns win everytime.
Blowing up a bus full of people, wether those people are israelis, or any other nationality or ethnic group doesnt make the person blowing the bus up a hero, it makes them a murdering bastard.

Heres an idea- two wrongs dont make a right.
Throwing stones at men with guns doesnt drive them away, it gets you shot,
and it doesnt make you a hero it makes you a silly little bastard that gets shot for throwing rocks at soldiers.
Guns vs. Rocks
Guns win everytime.
Blowing up a bus full of people, wether those people are israelis, or any other nationality or ethnic group doesnt make the person blowing the bus up a hero, it makes them a murdering bastard.
Well said!

yes bombers are muderers.. but are the army not also professional murderers?

Oh god, *every*message board gets this one at least once or twice a week.
:headbang:

I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. The Isralies may not be perfect, or even nice, but the Palastinians also don't make things any better by suicide bomings, rock throwing, and all the other stupid stuff.
The Israelis are fairly clear. If you throw rocks, and shoot at us, we shoot back. When 3 gunmen hide in a crowd and fire, the isralis shoot back, so everyone needs to take responisbility for the casualties. If a suicide bomber blows up a bus, the israelis retaliate. It's a simple cause and effect.

I seriously believe that if one side or the other would just *stop*, things might get better. I personally vote for the palastinians, because as a general rule, Israeli agression is reactive, as opposed to palastinian *Proactive* violence, but whatever. One side has to just stop. It's unfortunate, hwoever, because palastine is being driven by religious fantacism, and Isreal is driven by an Under Siege mentality.

And as to all the folks that like to stand there and say "It's all Isreal! Isreal is evil and bad and violent and took away palastine's land and is opressing them!" Hey. Why don't you find out you lost a brother, or a son, or a daughter, when some guy ran into a pizza joint and blew himself up. Then come talk about how the poor palastinians are being opressed by the eeeeeeevieeel isrealis.

yes bombers are muderers.. but are the army not also professional murderers?
Slight difference. The terrorists target civilians. We target militants and 9/10 we hit them.

I seriously believe that if one side or the other would just *stop*, things might get better. I personally vote for the palastinians, because as a general rule, Israeli agression is reactive, as opposed to palastinian *Proactive* violence, but whatever. One side has to just stop..
Already happened! Israel said that they wouldn't attack until the palestinians came and negotiated. Eventually they had to change plan when that failed catastrophically.

the truth of the matter is that the palestinians could have had a decent life for a while now, simply by being nice about it and not killing people. True, they would not have had all the luxuries that the Israelis get by having a 1st world nation, nor would they have all the land that they so relentlessly demand and claim as theirs, but they would have had a life with no guns and no bombs and freedom to raise their kids without fear - just like in Jordan, which is less than an hour's drive from the west bank, and less than 3 from Gaza.

but instead they chose to have their little "war of liberation", for independence they had already, choosing to risk losing all for the sake of "freeing" all those Israeli villages and settlements.

Now, war is more or less like this: there are two sides, and the one with the less guns suffers. The more the war progresses, the more the side with the less arms suffers. When he is on the ground, in pain, he screams "uncle", and the war ends. If he doesn't scream "uncle", the pressure is tightened, and he sufferes a little more. If the losing side of a war does not surrender, thinking that he will outfight the stronger opponent by sheer resolution, it's his own fault that he's making his own citizens suffer.

Now, as for the supposed gains of the Israelis, Gaza and the west bank cannot live without the Israelis. The Israelis are the markets for goods, are the fields on which bread is grown, are the factories, the bosses, the electricity and water and just about everything else. Without those gains, Gaza would not only suffer - it would strangle.

This is not because of Isreli malice. It is because first of all gaza, the west bank, and Israel at large are small, so everything has to be mixed, and secondly because the palestinians chose to, for the sake of their little war, sacrifice whatever abilities for self-sustenance they had, so that they could cry "the Israelis are hurting us and we are so weak" in the face of the world.

If a factory gets used as a firing position by two idiots, it's only the fault of the idiots that they were shooting at a tank and it chose to shoot back.

yes i agree with your story-

yet there is a problem.. america and britain actually volentarily decided to tear palistine to pices at the end of WW2 to make the world's first nation set up soley for religiouse perpouses. Palistine was a subject of the british empire btw. The jews at the end of WW2 did not ask for their own nation as jewdeism is just a religion.. you're a jew from frence.. you're french not israeli.. so the jews did not ask for their own nation because they already had their nation!. America and Britain were to blame for carving up israel and creating all these problems by creating this country in the middle of a totally muslim palestinian territory. the fanatical jews that moved there were no invading army but protected by greater powers (the US and UK).

it is said that the state was created for rascist perposes like getting rid of many jews in their countries and others.

anyway i totally blame the US and UK

the story should be altered to say "the normans withdrew and settled a mix of foreign people on the english land, these people still today have total support from atleast one half of the norman invasion force"Almost everything in your statement is just false. And you apparently don't know the difference between WW1 and WW2, do you?

yes bombers are muderers.. but are the army not also professional murderers?
Ah indeed, Governments train people to kill other people.
Perhaps I am in some way mistaken, but I am fairly sure that there is a fairly big difference between say, a soldier- who coming under a barrage of rocks, fires off a few rounds and takes down a rioter or three - as compared to a man who decides to blow up a bus full of people who were...... catching a bus.
I acknowledge that the Israeli army are hardly choirboys, but I havent heard of Israeli soldiers randomly killing people for no reason other than they just happen to be palestinian. The palestinian terrorists who blow up cafes//buses etc certainly seem to be murdering people for no other reason than the people happened to be Israeli.

the truth of the matter is that the palestinians could have had a decent life for a while now, simply by being nice about it and not killing people. True, they would not have had all the luxuries that the Israelis get by having a 1st world nation, nor would they have all the land that they so relentlessly demand and claim as theirs, but they would have had a life with no guns and no bombs and freedom to raise their kids without fear - just like in Jordan, which is less than an hour's drive from the west bank, and less than 3 from Gaza.

but instead they chose to have their little "war of liberation", for independence they had already, choosing to risk losing all for the sake of "freeing" all those Israeli villages and settlements.

Now, war is more or less like this: there are two sides, and the one with the less guns suffers. The more the war progresses, the more the side with the less arms suffers. When he is on the ground, in pain, he screams "uncle", and the war ends. If he doesn't scream "uncle", the pressure is tightened, and he sufferes a little more. If the losing side of a war does not surrender, thinking that he will outfight the stronger opponent by sheer resolution, it's his own fault that he's making his own citizens suffer.

Now, as for the supposed gains of the Israelis, Gaza and the west bank cannot live without the Israelis. The Israelis are the markets for goods, are the fields on which bread is grown, are the factories, the bosses, the electricity and water and just about everything else. Without those gains, Gaza would not only suffer - it would strangle.

This is not because of Isreli malice. It is because first of all gaza, the west bank, and Israel at large are small, so everything has to be mixed, and secondly because the palestinians chose to, for the sake of their little war, sacrifice whatever abilities for self-sustenance they had, so that they could cry "the Israelis are hurting us and we are so weak" in the face of the world.

If a factory gets used as a firing position by two idiots, it's only the fault of the idiots that they were shooting at a tank and it chose to shoot back.
Where are all you people when you're needed on the other debates? Honestly, some people have no consideration:)

yes i agree with your story-

yet there is a problem.. america and britain actually volentarily decided to tear palistine to pices at the end of WW2 to make the world's first nation set up soley for religiouse perpouses. Palistine was a subject of the british empire btw. The jews at the end of WW2 did not ask for their own nation as jewdeism is just a religion.. you're a jew from frence.. you're french not israeli.. so the jews did not ask for their own nation because they already had their nation!. America and Britain were to blame for carving up israel and creating all these problems by creating this country in the middle of a totally muslim palestinian territory. the fanatical jews that moved there were no invading army but protected by greater powers (the US and UK).

it is said that the state was created for rascist perposes like getting rid of many jews in their countries and others.

anyway i totally blame the US and UK

the story should be altered to say "the normans withdrew and settled a mix of foreign people on the english land, these people still today have total support from atleast one half of the norman invasion force"

**

ps. the english had won an astounding victory against a viking invasion force the day before the normans ivaded and exaustion was a problem against the normans even when 2/3 of the time the english were beating the normans..
One can tell that you have an astounding knowledge base for this information.
Is it Al-Jazeera, the palestinian-run news agency?

anyway i totally blame the US and UK



Actually, the problem predates WWII and the stage was set after WWI.
Wilson (read America) tried to prevent european expansion into the middle east and attempted to get full Autonomy for nations along arabic-speaking/non arabic-speaking lines. Britain and France would have none of this, as they wanted to divide the defeated Ottoman Empire amongst themselves. Unfortunately, Wilson was too inept at foreign policy and negotiating to force the issue.

Between the Wars, things pretty much blew up in the British and French faces, with Ibn Saud gaining the upper hand against Hussein (the english puppet) and French forces coming under attack from arab nationalists. Wahhabism started to be a real problem as early as 1921. meanwhile, Kemal had organized Turkish resistance and was challenging european and russian armistice demands. It all went swiftly downhill from there.

I agree somewhat with your statement, however I divide blame heavily on British and French shoulders primarily, with America gaining a much smaller share for backing their WWII allies after they'd already made quite a mess of it. America has since gained a larger share by becoming Israel's primary benefactor, but failing to do so would probably have only meant the massacre of Israelis at the hands of their arab neighbors. Perhaps Jerusalem should have stayed an international city, at least.

I'm not condoning or excusing the US here, but by the time America really got involved, it was already a very difficult situation.

(Edit: I'll learn to quote properly someday)

Originally Posted by EuropeanUnion

yet there is a problem.. america and britain actually volentarily decided to tear palistine to pices at the end of WW2 to make the world's first nation set up soley for religiouse perpouses. Palistine was a subject of the british empire btw. The jews at the end of WW2 did not ask for their own nation as jewdeism is just a religion.. you're a jew from frence.. you're french not israeli.. so the jews did not ask for their own nation because they already had their nation!. America and Britain were to blame for carving up israel and creating all these problems by creating this country in the middle of a totally muslim palestinian territory. the fanatical jews that moved there were no invading army but protected by greater powers (the US and UK).

Your information is completely without basis, and in direct contradiction with historical documentations.

Since I have just spent two years living in Bahrain, I can only address what I witnessed first hand regarding the intafada.

At the anniversary of the intafada, huge billboards depicting dead Palestinian children and dead young men and women are put up prominantly in the country. It was disturbing to my children to say the least. When there is a huge incident involving Israel (bus bombings primarily), great cheers go up even when children are killed. The reasoning they give is "He/she would have grown up to be a Zionist." It's insane! When Israel killed Yasmin (?) (the cleric), there were HUGE demonstrations against the US. As an American living right near the embassy, my car was surrounded by angry young men with pipes, sticks and anything else they could find. They were screaming at me (and the dozens of other motorists on the highway who were stopped by the mob).

Bahrain is a moderate Islamic country, yet even there, the hate is fueled and continues to be supported by the government. The situation between Israel and Palestine will NEVER be solved. No amount of debate by us or any other outside party will ever make a bit of difference.

Sad, but true.

Sheikh Ahmad Yassin was the name you were looking for I believe!

Bahrain is a moderate Islamic country, yet even there, the hate is fueled and continues to be supported by the government. The situation between Israel and Palestine will NEVER be solved. No amount of debate by us or any other outside party will ever make a bit of difference.

Sad, but true.

Many govt in the middle east NEED the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to continue. As long as it continues, those govts can distract their people from the crappy job they are doing managing their nations.

Many govt in the middle east NEED the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to continue. As long as it continues, those govts can distract their people from the crappy job they are doing managing their nations.

unfortunately true, but having no baring on this debate.

if you don't remember me, i'm the one who started off this debate and i have three points to make:

1. The israeli's nor the palestinians are correct by killing each other. they could just share the land have a country called palesrael (or wotever they want to call it) and the two main religions of the lands can live in peace. However this isn't going to happen with israel occupying palestine. the palestinians ONLY way of getting their voice heard is by doing something that will get them on the paper however they do occasionally go to extremes but NOT AS OFTEN AS THE ISRAELI's. and we dont know about it because the bias media refuse to have it as a headline story or even a story at all!!!

2. Israel is not buying these weapons, bullets, bombs from it's income. IT IS KILLING INNOCENT PALESTINIANS ON CHARITY MONEY. It is recieving £3,117,271,323.81 off the so called fighters against oppresion are concously paying for it to happen. the USA have more nuke warheads, bombs and WoMD than all the "terrorist" countries in the world. THE USA IS THE ONLY SUPERPOWER IN THE WORLD.

3. Before you post, please read the previous ones because many times i have seen people bring up issues (against the palestinians) which have already been contradicted.

thanks again

by the way the attachment is a few facts which is an eye opener

1. The israeli's nor the palestinians are correct by killing each other. they could just share the land have a country called palesrael (or wotever they want to call it) and the two main religions of the lands can live in peace. However this isn't going to happen with israel occupying palestine. the palestinians ONLY way of getting their voice heard is by doing something that will get them on the paper however they do occasionally go to extremes but NOT AS OFTEN AS THE ISRAELI's. and we dont know about it because the bias media refuse to have it as a headline story or even a story at all!!!

Any sources to back up those false claims? When was the last time you watched the BBC? They never show the Israeli victims, only the retaliation.
compare these two articles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3633158.stm
and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3614614.stm

Did you notice how there was a conspicious lack of pictures of injured Israelis? No such problem in the retaliation pictures. And how about qouting Israel saying that they would kill Hamas leaders wherever they found them? Makes us sound like the terrorists.

p.s The palestinians are the ones getting 3Bn a year from Syria and Iran. We also give them cash. Where is it now? Lets just say that Arafat could do well in the fortune 500 lists.

They aren't called terrorists by the rest of the world because they're fighting for their freedom, they're called terrorists because they specifically target civilians instead of the "occupying" army, and because they hide among civilians not wearing their colours openly. If they didn't hide among the Palestinian civilian population, and attacked Israeli military forces instead of Israeli busses, then they wouldn't be called terrorists by the world (Israel probably still would, but that's neither here nor there).

oh my god , Israel is defending itself
israel has been attacked by multiple arab states on 2 seperate occsasions , not counting the terrorists of the world. Why can`t people leave the jew`s alone ?

Originally Posted by The Supernova
1. The israeli's nor the palestinians are correct by killing each other. they could just share the land have a country called palesrael (or wotever they want to call it) and the two main religions of the lands can live in peace. However this isn't going to happen with israel occupying palestine. the palestinians ONLY way of getting their voice heard is by doing something that will get them on the paper however they do occasionally go to extremes but NOT AS OFTEN AS THE ISRAELI's. and we dont know about it because the bias media refuse to have it as a headline story or even a story at all!!!


ok , when israel and palestine were originally formed they were the same size , then 7 arab nations sent troops tanks and airplanes to destroy israel , but israel won , silly arabs , and then they retook the land the arabs had taken and carried on going to stop there being easy staging points for further arab attacks , then later in the history it was attacked by syria and egypt AGAIN , and as israel is a small nation it`s army is based around an attacking or counter attacking force , so it needs larger borders , basically it takes the land of countries that attacked it so it`s enermies bombers couln`t reach it`s own cities. Read the history not the socialist booklet you whinging fool. :headbang:

would yopu like to find some proof for your case?????

would yopu like to find some proof for your case?????
Suddenly interested in proof are we? It didn't bother you in the last post you made!

Personally I would like to see the US. put Yasser Arafat on trial for crimes against humanity. Arafat has the blood of millions of people on his hands and will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. If the US honestly wants to carry a war on terror, then the first person I would go after is Arafat, not Hussein, after all, Arafat has killed even more than Hussein did. Problem is people see him as a freedom fighter.

Many govt in the middle east NEED the Israeli/Palestinian conflict to continue. As long as it continues, those govts can distract their people from the crappy job they are doing managing their nations.
I don't even want to think about that for a second

Personally I would like to see the US. put Yasser Arafat on trial for crimes against humanity. Arafat has the blood of millions of people on his hands and will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. If the US honestly wants to carry a war on terror, then the first person I would go after is Arafat, not Hussein, after all, Arafat has killed even more than Hussein did. Problem is people see him as a freedom fighter.
The US have enough problems right now. WE should put him on trial for crimes against humanity. You know he got a nobel peace prize for the Oslo agreement? He then proceeded to break every rule that was laid down!

Supernova. The analogy you make is completely bogus.

As has been said before; the six day war was a defensive one against several hostile states who wished 'To drive the Jews into the sea'.

That is why the occupied territories are occupied.

The majority 'liberal' view is that Israel is an oppressor. The underlying subtext is 'Typical Greedy Jews. You give them an inch and they take a mile. See, you just can't trust them.'

I personally feel that even the majority of non Jewish aknowledgment of the holocaust is a dutiful, teeth gritted one. I have heard people say 'yes, but that was at least fifty years ago... how long are you people going to use it to justify what you are doing.'

The holocaust was not an isolated incident. It was the culmination of hundreds of years of persecution, at the hands of Christian dominated AND Muslim countries. Yes, the Jews lived in relative peace in the Muslim countries for a long time without persecution but NEVER as equals.

I have heard people say 'what the Israelis are doing to the palestinians is as bad as what the Nazis did to the Jews'. Really?

I have heard people compare Israel to an apartheid state like South Africa. Really? The buses palestinian suicide bombers kill innocent women and children on are freely used by Jews, Christians, and Muslims and noone has precedence over who gets a seat. The cafe in Haifa that was blown up was co-owned by Jews AND Arabs.

The Jews have long been and continue to be the scape goat for the worlds evil.

Slight difference. The terrorists target civilians. We target militants and 9/10 we hit them.

We dont hit them, we KILL them. All soldiers are murderers, pawns in a bigger game. It doesnt matter if a soldier kills another soldier or a civilian, or if a bomber blows up a bus; they are all murdering bastards.

We dont hit them, we KILL them. All soldiers are murderers, pawns in a bigger game. It doesnt matter if a soldier kills another soldier or a civilian, or if a bomber blows up a bus; they are all murdering bastards.
The civilians were on their way to visit friends and were no threat. If a soldier kills someone who throws rocks or fires on him then the soldier is fully entitled to fight back. By your logic someone who switches off their sons life support, are they murderers?

Slight difference. The terrorists target civilians. We target militants and 9/10 we hit them.

Define "militant". Do you mean the Palestinian man trying to protect his family?

I acknowledge that the Israeli army are hardly choirboys, but I havent heard of Israeli soldiers randomly killing people for no reason other than they just happen to be palestinian.

No, the Settlers do that. They abduct Palestinians and beat them to death, for no other reason than that they were Palestinian.

Define "militant". Do you mean the Palestinian man trying to protect his family?
No I mean the suicidal guy who gets his family killed by throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers! Face it, they don't care about "protecting their family" they're interested in dying with honor, meaning to take Jews with you.

No, the Settlers do that. They abduct Palestinians and beat them to death, for no other reason than that they were Palestinian.
No-one will believe you if you don't post a source.

Personally I would like to see the US. put Yasser Arafat on trial for crimes against humanity. Arafat has the blood of millions of people on his hands and will never sign any kind of peace treaty with Israel. If the US honestly wants to carry a war on terror, then the first person I would go after is Arafat, not Hussein, after all, Arafat has killed even more than Hussein did. Problem is people see him as a freedom fighter.

While I don't like Arafat either, why the hell should the US put him on trial? He hasn't done shit to anyone but Israel, and, arguably, Lebanon.
And please back up that "he killed more people than Saddam" statement.

No-one will believe you if you don't post a source.

http://www.zmag.org/Bulletins/psetevac.htm

No I mean the suicidal guy who gets his family killed by throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers! Face it, they don't care about "protecting their family" they're interested in dying with honor, meaning to take Jews with you.

So, it's wrong to resist armed soldiers? If I have a gun, and I walk into my neighbor's yard claiming it was mine, and he threw a rock at me, I should kill him? That makes perfect sense.

Wow. I can't believe what I am hearing here. OK, When Israel was first founded by the UN it was immediatly attacked by every country that surrounded it. This happened withing 24 hours of the country being founded. It did not have an established government much less a military, yet it still managed to win the war. The Arab states surrounding Israel tried repeatedly to destroy Israel through force of arms and every time they failed. Why do the Palestinians live in refugee camps? becuase the other arab states won't take them in order to use them as an effective weapon against the Israilis. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the other arab states. Why does Arafat not do anything to stop the violence? simple. If the violence was to stop and Palestine became free then he would no longer be able to sponge up all that foreign aid to fill up his own bank accounts. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the plight of the Palestinians, but I do not blame the Israilis. I beleve that the Palestinian authority are the ones to blame for the deaths. They encourage the violence knowing that the Israilis will counter and fuel further hatred. When Arafat was offered 90% of what he demanded at Camp David, he literally walked away from the negotiating table because that wasn't enough for him apparently. The Palestinians want every jew out of Palestein, where as Arabs in Israel can become citizens. Please refute what I have to say and tell me how the jews are to blame for all the worlds evils. And don't even get me started on the "all soldiers are murdering bastards and just as bad as terrorists" remarks.

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

Wow. I can't believe what I am hearing here. OK, When Israel was first founded by the UN it was immediatly attacked by every country that surrounded it. This happened withing 24 hours of the country being founded. It did not have an established government much less a military, yet it still managed to win the war. The Arab states surrounding Israel tried repeatedly to destroy Israel through force of arms and every time they failed. Why do the Palestinians live in refugee camps? becuase the other arab states won't take them in order to use them as an effective weapon against the Israilis. The Palestinians are being used as pawns by the other arab states. Why does Arafat not do anything to stop the violence? simple. If the violence was to stop and Palestine became free then he would no longer be able to sponge up all that foreign aid to fill up his own bank accounts. Don't get me wrong, I feel for the plight of the Palestinians, but I do not blame the Israilis. I beleve that the Palestinian authority are the ones to blame for the deaths. They encourage the violence knowing that the Israilis will counter and fuel further hatred. When Arafat was offered 90% of what he demanded at Camp David, he literally walked away from the negotiating table because that wasn't enough for him apparently. The Palestinians want every jew out of Palestein, where as Arabs in Israel can become citizens. Please refute what I have to say and tell me how the jews are to blame for all the worlds evils. And don't even get me started on the "all soldiers are murdering bastards and just as bad as terrorists" remarks.

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

I fail to see how the fact that Israel was attacked has anything to do with anything...
How does that justify genocide?

I fail to see how the fact that Israel was attacked has anything to do with anything...
How does that justify genocide?

genocide??? you are applying this term to the Israeli/palestinian conflict? A few thousand palestinians and maybe a third of that number of Israelis have died in the last few years. This is genocide?

Look to Africa and maybe Bosnia/hertzgovia for proper modern definitions of this term.

genocide??? you are applying this term to the Israeli/palestinian conflict? A few thousand palestinians and maybe a third of that number of Israelis have died in the last few years. This is genocide?

Look to Africa and maybe Bosnia/hertzgovia for proper modern definitions of this term.

Ah...Like that guy that strangled his wife. He's not a murderer. "Why not?" you ask... Because Hitler killed ALOT of people.
Now there's a proper murderer!

Ah...Like that guy that strangled his wife. He's not a murderer. "Why not?" you ask... Because Hitler killed ALOT of people.
Now there's a proper murderer!

You are on drugs rights?

First you talk of Israelis committing genocide, then you talk of a guy strangling his wife, then hitler.

I wish I was taking the mushrooms you are indulging in.

You are on drugs rights?

First you talk of Israelis committing genocide, then you talk of a guy strangling his wife, then hitler.

I wish I was taking the mushrooms you are indulging in.

Mushrooms won't help you understand a metaphor.

People, if I am to believe any BS that you say please at least post a source, preferably impartial so NO Al-Jazeera!
To the people who claim that Israel is not a democracy. A democracy is where the people have the right to choose their leader and the freedom to protest and free speech etc... Israel holds elections every 4 years, protests are common and, as long as you don't hurt anyone else you're allowed to say whatever you want. Also, ALL the palestinian settlements in Israel have the vote.
You people are starting to confuse me. You claim that Israel should back out of Gaza and yet they should vote in Israel? Please explain that to me! If Gaza became Palestine then Israel would not fund them anymore as they would be a seperate nation like any other. Problem is, they destroyed their own economy in their somewhat pathetic attempt to look poor and oppressed. Whatever happens Israel come out of it bad.
Shall I explain why Israel arren't the terrorists? Because we try to reach a peace treaty, but every time we do Hamas ruin it. They are the terrorists.

Mushrooms won't help you understand a metaphor.
Evidently they aren't helping you form coherent sentences either.

[QUOTE=Sanctaphrax]ALL the palestinian settlements in Israel have the vote.
QUOTE]

Maybe, but the 5 million or more Palestinians living outside of Israel - the ones forcibly removed by the Jews and their descendants, do not have the vote, and are not allowed back to vote in the country they were born in or their parents or grandparents were born in.

The remaining Palestinians in Israel are allowed the vote because the 800,000 - 1.2 million (depending upon your sources) of them who are there aren't enough to make a difference. And the Palestinians who live in Israel are like the Hispanics in America - they do all the menial work, the low-paid work, the jobs the Jews don't want to do, won't dirty their hands with.

Some democracy.
Actually the workers are mostly from Thailand. You realise that 1.2 Million is over a sixth of the population. Living out of Israel, where exactly? Even if you find a source for those claims then it won't stop the fact that we're much more tolerant than Jordan because all the palestinians who tried to get into there got shot.

Yes, of course, there are no Palestinians working or living in Israel, they're all from Thailand.

Are you serious?
I din't say ALL I said a majority. People don't trust workers from the territories anymore for obvious reasons.

Evidently they aren't helping you form coherent sentences either.

It's not difficult to understand. I was simply pointing out that there is always someone worse out there. Pointing at Bosnia and Rwanda does not excuse Israel. Get it?

It's not difficult to understand. I was simply pointing out that there is always someone worse out there. Pointing at Bosnia and Rwanda does not excuse Israel. Get it?
i think the point being made was what is happening in Israel is not genocide. The attempt to 'push the jews into the sea' however might come close.
Bad as things are genocide does not fit.

The problem here of course is that this topic was started by someone who thinks he knows everything about the conflict, but of course does not, adn then it is sabotaged by people qho quite frankly are indulging in some kind of mind-altering substance.

When did it become acceptable to call the Jews racists when they try and defend their people? Israel has sat down at the negotiating table a thousand times with the PA, and each time finds itself rebuffed. The Saudi Arabian prince Bandar said that Arafat was a 'criminal' for not taking 97% of the West Bank at Camp David. The problem here is that the Palestinians don't have a viable leadership angling for peace and becasue of the miderable state they are in, due the lack of funding and support from their Arab brother nations, they are brainwashed by terrorist groups like Hamas and Fatah and Hezbollah to put their CHILDREN in the front line against a well-equipped army.

I can assure you that it is not acceptable to condemn Israeli soldiers from doing their jobs - they try to hit terrorists; the terrorists try to hit children and young people in clubs, restaurants, weddings and school buses.

Try some empathy, and don't blame those who are the REAL victims.

Sympathy duly extended to the victims of cowards and terrorist planting and using bombs in public places and killing indiscriminately. The problem you will have if peace is to be achieved is that some of these animals and scum may be free in the interests of peace. As has been the case with the bombers that murdered women and children in Northern Ireland and great Britian.

The Normans (France) did not fight the English. They were not 'English' then. The Normans fought the Saxons (originally from Saxony in Germany).

The Normans (France) did not fight the English. They were not 'English' then. The Normans fought the Saxons (originally from Saxony in Germany).
And where did this come from?

I cannot answer to all the posters in this thread – simply because it would be too long a reply and my words would be surely lost in the rabble. However, I will try my best to post some of my opinions.

Supernova,

Several attempts have been made to share the area in question – which originally included not only the whole of Israel, Gaza and the west bank, but also Jordan (in fact, I'd bet you can find the historical documentation proving that Jordan is an artificial construct originated after the desire to divide the land between the Arabs and the Jews, after WWI – in light of both the Balfur and the Husain declarations). The earliest of such agreements made between the Arabs and the would-be Israelis is the Vaitzman-Phisal (SP?! Im certain that phisal is not a correct spelling of the name), but others have been made since, including some of the latter ones – the Oslo accords, the Clinton proposal, the Saudi papers, the Tennet plan, and others.

In all the agreements above, it was agreeable that the Israeli nation would not occupy the extent of the land that it does currently. Moreover, in all of them, it was explicitly stated that the Palestinians would have a sovereign nation in the areas under their control.

You argue that all of those agreements failed, because Israel is occupying "Palestine". Now, you can mean by that any number of things – from Gaza and the West bank, through the whole of current Israel, including those areas, to this and Jordan too. This is a general statement that is equally applicable to Nablus, Jerusalem and Tel-Aviv.

Nonetheless, the point is clear – because of the military control of the Israeli army in the areas occupied by the Palestinians, peace is impossible. I disagree. The military control is a result of the condition of war between the two nations – just as the fear experienced by many of the Israelis. I could just as easily argue, and in fact I do, that peace is not possible so long as busses in Israel are not safe from being blown up by terrorists.

Now, the military is quite obviously doing some not nice things to people. Routine checks, military operations inside cities, house being toppled, and the likes. But these are done in order to protect the common Israeli citizen (and no, I am not saying that all of those are justified, and I am not saying that the military plays nice usually). So long as terrorists are out there, the military must act.

Will the bombings stop if the military completely withdraw from the areas which are inhabited by non-Israeli Palestinians? Unfortunately, the leading organizations out there openly declare that they demand a greater withdrawal than it is possible: From the centrists, demanding only a withdrawal from the Israeli capitol, to the extremists, who want the Jews to "go home to Europe".

A complete Palestinian secession of the violence, for a prolonged period of time (see tenet plan) is the only way possible for true peace to exist. The Israeli military, seeing such secession will begin to lax its hold on the population and will eventually transfer the areas to full autonomy pending final peace agreements (that, despite the actions of some military extremists who will try to eliminate terrorists – preferring to see the pause as a tactical withdrawal). That or total destruction of one of the belligerent forces, that is.

I am quite certain that peaceful civil protest in the west bank would receive front-line news. Only, the last time I heard of peaceful protests on CNN, the pictures included were of stone and fire-bomb throwing. Moreover, there is nothing like a bit of non-shooting to get the less dangerous forms of protest across.

It is quite obvious that the media is biased. However, I feel that you believe it is so only because the views presented in the media are not the same as the ones you are holding. Obviously, you believe that your opinions are "fair and balanced" – just like anyone else – but if the media does not cater to your tastes, do not brand it immediately as crap.

And besides, since when is killing a person a reasonable thing to do when you're trying to get a point across the media? Are you saying that it is ok for some random Israeli to get blown to bits so that the picture of some equally dismembered, with the accompanying banner of some group, will be shown on the 9-ocklock news?

As for the so-called charity money, I am certain that the great U-S-of-A has its own motives for handing out that money, which are neither charitable nor anything but self-serving. This is not to say that I oppose those motives or the money given, but I am sure that it is there because it's good for Americans to do that giving.

i think the point being made was what is happening in Israel is not genocide. The attempt to 'push the jews into the sea' however might come close.
Bad as things are genocide does not fit.
The only reason genocide doesn't fit is because the terrorists are hopelessly inept. Ditto for our bordering countries. Can you imagine Luxembourg being invaded by Holland, Germany etc... and living to talk about it? While the Hamas are sticking to their ridiculous tactics, it'll take a long time to kill all the Jews at the rate they're going. Like I said, they're hopelessly inept. That said, every life is a life and the militants shouldn't be able to get away with it.Neither should the media.

The Normans (France) did not fight the English. They were not 'English' then. The Normans fought the Saxons (originally from Saxony in Germany).
Hrm, the Normans probably didn't identify themselves as 'French', but as Normans. They were, afterall, only a few generations descendant from their Viking ancestors. And as for the 'Saxons' not being 'English'. The Angles called where they lived "Engla-lond", and probably identified themselves as being something closer to English than being related to the people in Saxony, which they hadn't been near (if they ever were) for about 400 years.

As for Israel. Hopefully if they finish the Security fence, they can shove all the Palestinians on their side, and lock them out. No Palestinians in Israel = no suicide bombers. And with time, the Palestinians will hopefully forget about their desire to drive the Israelis into the sea (just like the Britons gave up on their desire to drive the invaders out of Britain). Unfortunately, I think this is probably a pipe-dream because as I understand it, there's a bit of economic interdependence between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

As for Israel. Hopefully if they finish the Security fence, they can shove all the Palestinians on their side, and lock them out. No Palestinians in Israel = no suicide bombers. And with time, the Palestinians will hopefully forget about their desire to drive the Israelis into the sea (just like the Britons gave up on their desire to drive the invaders out of Britain). Unfortunately, I think this is probably a pipe-dream because as I understand it, there's a bit of economic interdependence between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
No need for that! Besides, they'd have trouble driving us into the sea if they were with their backs to the sea!

OK, how about some basic facts about the issue:

who invaded who?

The Arabs invaded Israel, you can go ahead and say that the pro-western UN created Israel out of sympathy for what happened to them unnder Hitler in WWII, thats true, however, Palestine was under British control at the time and the Palestinians got their own independent state at the same time that the jews got Israel. Israel was invaded by all of its Arab neighbors, and in a DEFENSIVE war gained territory to secure its own survival.

In fact at one point the Israelis had control of all of the Sanai after beating the snot out of the Egyptions, what did they do with it? they gave it back in exchange for peace.

Who discriminates against who?

While Palestinians living in Israel can have full citizenship and voting rights, however if Palesestien ever becomes autonomous, they want all of the jews off of their land. They will not be allowed to live there at all, thats fair right?

Oh yea, and I almost forgot, the PLO Charter still calls for the complete destruction of Israel despite Arafats promise of changing that.

I do not hold the Palestinians as a whole responsible, I do not even hold the suicide bombers responsible, they are just little gullible children. I hold Hammas and Arafat responsible for filling the heads of these kids with lies about how glorious it is to die killing jews for allah and how if they do it they will go to heaven and have 71 virgins waiting for them.

To me that sounds kind of like a bribe, but what the hell do I know? I'm just a dirty kike, I killed jesus and my people are responsible for everything that goes wrong with the world. I really wish you people would pull your heads out of your asses and take a look at the facts instead of the propoganda lies that the Palestinian Authority feeds the world.

I feel sorry for the Palestinian people, they need to rise up against a leadership that forces them into poverty to further themselves and hides terrorits in the homes of civilians in the hopes that innocents will get killed in the crossfire to further the hatred of the jews.

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

The only reason genocide doesn't fit is because the terrorists are hopelessly inept. Ditto for our bordering countries. Can you imagine Luxembourg being invaded by Holland, Germany etc... and living to talk about it? While the Hamas are sticking to their ridiculous tactics, it'll take a long time to kill all the Jews at the rate they're going. Like I said, they're hopelessly inept. That said, every life is a life and the militants shouldn't be able to get away with it.Neither should the media.

They should stick to better tactics, such as gunning down children and firing missiles...

Ok, first off the Israelis fire missiles at Known terrorist leaders, they don't blow up random people in night clubs and on busses. Secondly the Palestinian children get shot when they are drug into a warzone to act as body shields. It is unfortunate that they get shot but the Israelis are not to blame.

My view is this: Both sides have to take responisbility for the wrongs that they have done, but the Palestinains have a lot more to answer for than the Israelis.

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

Ok, first off the Israelis fire missiles at Known terrorist leaders, they don't blow up random people in night clubs and on busses. Secondly the Palestinian children get shot when they are drug into a warzone to act as body shields. It is unfortunate that they get shot but the Israelis are not to blame.

My view is this: Both sides have to take responisbility for the wrongs that they have done, but the Palestinains have a lot more to answer for than the Israelis.

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

"warzone"?
They live in it...

None of you know what your talking about. No one who posts on this thread has had a clear experience of what it's like to live on both sides, get both sides of the story.

No one is the blame, "blame" is just a silly concept that is completely overused.

Simply put, simply taken.

Actually, I have a pretty good picture of both sides of the issue, seeing as how I have family living in Israel, and I have dated a Palestinian girl and happen to have a number of Arabic friends from the region.

But you are right, neither side is entirely at fault. The message I have been trying to get across that everyone is ignoring is that the Palestinian Authority and the leadership of Hamas are killing off their own people in order to further their personal agendas and line their pockets. The palestinian bombers and rock throwers are not the ones to blame but those who brainwash them into believing that that is the best thing that they can do with their lives.

I know that it is unlikely that anyone is actually gonna change their mind because of what I say, but those of you on both sides of the issue, pro palestine and pro israel need to look at the wrongs that BOTH sides have commited. More Palestinians have died, that is true, but the Israelis do not purposely target civilians like the terrorists do, but they definatly should be more sensative to the amount of colateral damage they cause.

Cpl Monasrtyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer SUpport Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

Just to remind you all, the "bad people", no matter which side they are on, don't represent the groups themselves.

Israelis and Palestinians are fine people. (Some anti-semite will come along and tell me I'm wrong)

There are just those among them that make each side appear bad. No matter who kills how many for what reason, those people don't represent the group as a whole.

That's all. My opinions on this matter is overall disgust with the situation and individuals responsible, not the groups themselves. Members of both groups are equally responsible in my eyes, attacking and counterattacking and prematurely attacking and defending and counterdefending (is that a word?), in a constant, fluid motion... the fluid of blood. (Oh I'm so poetic).

Anyways, I've said it before and I'll say it again: We semites are stubborn.

There's nothing to discuss. Israel needs to get back to it's 1967 borders. End of story.

Too bad the US and NATO couldn't bomb Israel to force them to end the occupation.

I find the Israeli occupation as unacceptable as Hitler's annexation of Poland or Saddam Hussein's annexation of Kuwait.

Israel is a rogue state that needs to be taught a lesson. The Hamas strategic bombings are a good start.

There's nothing to discuss. Israel needs to get back to it's 1967 borders. End of story.

Too bad the US and NATO couldn't bomb Israel to force them to end the occupation.

I find the Israeli occupation as unacceptable as Hitler's annexation of Poland or Saddam Hussein's annexation of Kuwait.

Israel is a rogue state that needs to be taught a lesson. The Hamas strategic bombings are a good start.

Pardon my ignorance, but exactly what is "strategic" about blowing up children? And why does that escape your "unacceptable" list?

They should stick to better tactics, such as gunning down children and firing missiles...
Yeah, gunning down children, that would make them heroes in the eyes of the world. :rolleyes:
If they target soldiers then its somewhat more acceptable than killing civilians.

To echo your responce, Mumblelo,

There's nothing to discuss. the Hamass needs to be dissassembled. End of story.

Too bad the US and NATO couldn't bomb it to extinction.

I find the existance of the hamass as unacceptable as that of the nazi party or the KKK.

the hamass is a rouge organisation that needs to be taught a lesson. The systematic killing of it's leaders is a good start.

</sarcasm>

There's nothing to discuss. Israel needs to get back to it's 1967 borders. End of story.

Too bad the US and NATO couldn't bomb Israel to force them to end the occupation.

I find the Israeli occupation as unacceptable as Hitler's annexation of Poland or Saddam Hussein's annexation of Kuwait.

Israel is a rogue state that needs to be taught a lesson. The Hamas strategic bombings are a good start.
Yes and the uUS should go back to the borders of 1830.

Yes and the uUS should go back to the borders of 1830.
Leave him alone, its quite obvious that some people wouldn't know the truth behind Israel and Palestine if it came up and introduced itself.

Yes and the uUS should go back to the borders of 1830.

The past is past. If people are going to start living peacefully, they have to start now, not last week and not after they've avenged the wrongs of last week, or 1967, or whatever. The state of Israel and certain of its citizens have behaved absolutely terribly towards the Palestinians, and many Palestinians have objected to Israel from the beginning and tried to bomb Israeli citizens away.

Israelis shouldn't forget that Israel was founded on the terrorism of Menachem Begin and Palestinians shouldn't forget that Israel is the home of many Israelis now, and they should stop killing each other. And without all the you stop first no you stop you started it bollocks. Call me a hippy if you like, but there is no other way.

ISRAEL REPRESENT!!!! ;)

Palestine :mp5:

ISRAEL REPRESENT!!!! ;)

Palestine :mp5:
Very deep and meaningful statement there... congratulations [sarcasm/]

No one will believe you if you do not post a source]http://www.zmag.org/Bulletins/psetevac.htm
Thats not a source dude- it refers to an "unidentified jewish assailant" who emerged from a "green sedan" that doesnt prove the gunman was a jew,
in addition the link you posted (that i have quoted here) refers to
" For example, in one incident in 1996, a settler that had killed a Palestinian was fined one agorat, which is the equivalent of 28 cents of one US Dollar. " Yet the site fails to name a)the settler who was fined or b)the palestianian who had been killed- in other words the information in your "source" cannot be verified-
Many people hold propaganda in contempt; your source is propaganda. No one that actually wasted 60 seconds clicking on the link you provided is gonna be convinced.
Anti-semitism is always an ugly sight- its even more disturbing when its wrapped up in a cloak of falsely righteous indignation.

OK, as far as all this talk about the media bias in favor of Israel, thats a bunch of bull. The media loves to beat up on Israel and show the poor downtrodden Palestinians as innocent victims. I seem to recall a few years back a front page picture in one of the big papers, I don't remember which one and I have more important things to do than track it down, but anyways the picture was of an Israeli soldier dragging a baddly beaten man and holding up a billy club. The caption stated that the soldier was beating a Palestinian who had been peacfully protesting. As it turned out, that "Palestinian" was a Jew from Boston and the soldier was pulling him to saftey after he had been beaten by Palestinian thugs. The reason he was beaten: He was a jew.

Well when the truth came out the paper issued an apppology and a correction, but while the initial story had been page one, the correction was burried deep inside the paper where many people would never even see it.

So, onto who's side is the media biased?

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

OK, as far as all this talk about the media bias in favor of Israel, thats a bunch of bull. The media loves to beat up on Israel and show the poor downtrodden Palestinians as innocent victims. I seem to recall a few years back a front page picture in one of the big papers, I don't remember which one and I have more important things to do than track it down, but anyways the picture was of an Israeli soldier dragging a baddly beaten man and holding up a billy club. The caption stated that the soldier was beating a Palestinian who had been peacfully protesting. As it turned out, that "Palestinian" was a Jew from Boston and the soldier was pulling him to saftey after he had been beaten by Palestinian thugs. The reason he was beaten: He was a jew.

Well when the truth came out the paper issued an apppology and a correction, but while the initial story had been page one, the correction was burried deep inside the paper where many people would never even see it.

So, onto who's side is the media biased?

Cpl Monastyrsky, Ilya USMC
4th Force Service Support Group
6th Engineer Support Battalion
Headquarters & Service Company

My friend worked as a volunteer physician in Palestine... He never mentioned that all the children he treated for teargas or shot by rubber bullets (and occasionally real bullets) had been attacked by Palestinian thugs.

Why do we always say that the Mideast conflict suddenly erupted in 1967? We're just throwing out 1948 and anything before like it didn't happen. The real fact of the matter is that this is a situation of someone's home repeatedly being colonized over a period of years. The Occupied Territories (Gaza and the West Bank) aren't even connected, and they are further split up by military checkpoints and "Jewish only" roads. This is basically the exact same thing as the South African bantustans the apartheid regime used to throw the black population into. The resource-poor Bantustans were many times promised or "given" independence, the same as the non-contingous territory of "Palestine." It's really shameful when someone thrown out of their home (i.e. a Palestinian in 1948) is not allowed to come back, but somehow ninety converts from Peru can get free citizenship because they're the right religion (really happened, two years ago). If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

The real problem, it seems to me, is that the way this thing could be stopped is if Israel gave all of the Palestinians equal rights, the exact same as what was done in South Africa. Let's face it, if Palestinians get equal chances to succeed and build lives for their families in a modern, high-tech economy, Hamas and Islamic Jihad recruitment rates would fall down the toilet. That is exactly what happened when South Africa ended apartheid in the early 1990s-violence halted. The common Israeli objection is "then they'll be a Palestinian majority." Oh, no, equality! Run! Replace "Palestinian" in the last sentence with "black" and you'll basically get what South African leaders were talking about 20 years ago. True democracy means equal rights for all, not just those of a preferred religion or ethnicity.

And I'm also sick of all this 'if you criticize Israel, you're anti-Semitic' stuff. I have a few friends who are Jewish and don't have anything against anyone due to their religion or ethnicity. My problem is with racists who think colonizing others and denying them the right to come back home is okay. A one-state solution with equality for all is the best and most just solution.


Links:
"The One State Solution" by Ahmad Samih Khalidi. The Guardian. Monday, Sept. 29, 2003. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C1051542%2C00.html)

"How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers" The Guardian. Wendsday, Aug. 7, 2002. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0%2C10551%2C770315%2C00.html)
contrast with Playgrounds for Palestine founder Susan Abulhawa's story in "The Wrong Kind of Human" (http://www.mediamonitors.net/susan4.html).

The resource-poor Bantustans were many times promised or "given" independence, the same as the non-contingous territory of "Palestine."

Except that doesn't jive at all with what the Americans, Israelis, and even some Palestinians who were at the Camp David, Taba, and Clinton Proposal negotiatons say happened, or what was offered.

It's really shameful when someone thrown out of their home (i.e. a Palestinian in 1948) is not allowed to come back, but somehow ninety converts from Peru can get free citizenship because they're the right religion (really happened, two years ago). If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

You could call it discriminatory, but it's not racist- Jews aren't a race, and Israel has a lot more ethnic, cultural, and "racial" diversity than Palestine. It also has a minority of Israeli Arabs, who, one could argue have more rights than Palestinians have ever had under any other government, including the Palestinian Authority, which controlled much of the territories during the 90s.

Furthermore, is this policy any more discriminatory than the millions of Jews who were KICKED OUT of Arab countries- their property confiscated- after 1948 and 1967? Do you think they're welcome back in Egypt or Saudi Arabia (where, BTW, non-Muslims have NO citizenship rights)?

The real problem, it seems to me, is that the way this thing could be stopped is if Israel gave all of the Palestinians equal rights, the exact same as what was done in South Africa. Let's face it, if Palestinians get equal chances to succeed and build lives for their families in a modern, high-tech economy, Hamas and Islamic Jihad recruitment rates would fall down the toilet.

I highly doubt it. Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and their followers, believe in a territorial maximalist ideology founded on the destruction of Israel. I fail to see how a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza would appease them.

My problem is with racists who think colonizing others and denying them the right to come back home is okay. A one-state solution with equality for all is the best and most just solution.

And completely unrealistic. What exactly do you think would happen to the Jewish minority in this new binational state, when you throw millions of Jews together with millions of radicalized Palestinians raised to hate and want to kill Jews?

Asking a powerful group to voluntarily create conditions where they will not only be weak, but also oppressed, is nothing short of absurd and naive. It will never happen.

Why do we always say that the Mideast conflict suddenly erupted in 1967? We're just throwing out 1948 and anything before like it didn't happen. The real fact of the matter is that this is a situation of someone's home repeatedly being colonized over a period of years. The Occupied Territories (Gaza and the West Bank) aren't even connected, and they are further split up by military checkpoints and "Jewish only" roads. This is basically the exact same thing as the South African bantustans the apartheid regime used to throw the black population into. The resource-poor Bantustans were many times promised or "given" independence, the same as the non-contingous territory of "Palestine." It's really shameful when someone thrown out of their home (i.e. a Palestinian in 1948) is not allowed to come back, but somehow ninety converts from Peru can get free citizenship because they're the right religion (really happened, two years ago). If that isn't racist, I don't know what is.

The real problem, it seems to me, is that the way this thing could be stopped is if Israel gave all of the Palestinians equal rights, the exact same as what was done in South Africa. Let's face it, if Palestinians get equal chances to succeed and build lives for their families in a modern, high-tech economy, Hamas and Islamic Jihad recruitment rates would fall down the toilet. That is exactly what happened when South Africa ended apartheid in the early 1990s-violence halted. The common Israeli objection is "then they'll be a Palestinian majority." Oh, no, equality! Run! Replace "Palestinian" in the last sentence with "black" and you'll basically get what South African leaders were talking about 20 years ago. True democracy means equal rights for all, not just those of a preferred religion or ethnicity.

And I'm also sick of all this 'if you criticize Israel, you're anti-Semitic' stuff. I have a few friends who are Jewish and don't have anything against anyone due to their religion or ethnicity. My problem is with racists who think colonizing others and denying them the right to come back home is okay. A one-state solution with equality for all is the best and most just solution.


Links:
"The One State Solution" by Ahmad Samih Khalidi. The Guardian. Monday, Sept. 29, 2003. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%2C3604%2C1051542%2C00.html)

"How 90 Peruvians became the latest Jewish settlers" The Guardian. Wendsday, Aug. 7, 2002. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0%2C10551%2C770315%2C00.html)
contrast with Playgrounds for Palestine founder Susan Abulhawa's story in "The Wrong Kind of Human" (http://www.mediamonitors.net/susan4.html).


:)
You're absolutely right.

http://www.nicedoggie.net/archives/002714.html#002714

Just a few questions to make you think:

1. Are you aware that the Disputed Territories never belonged to the “Palestinians” and only came into Israeli possession as a result of the 1967 six day war in which Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon all massed forces at Israel’s border in order to “push the Jews into the sea”. The Arabs lost and Israel took control of the land. Do you agree that if the Koranimals don’t want to lose territory to Israel, then they shouldn’t start wars? Do you agree that there is justice that Israel, who as far back as 1948 has always sought peace with her far larger neighbors, should live in prosperity - making the desert bloom - while the residents of 19 adjacent Arab countries who are blessed with far more land as well as oil wealth live in their own feces?

2. Did you know that the “Palestinians” could have had their own country as far back as 1948 had they accepted the UN sponsored partition plan which gave Israel AND the Palestinians a countries of their own on land which Jews had lived on for thousands of years before Mohammed ever had a wet dream about virgins? The Arabs rejected the UN offer and went to war with the infant Israeli nation. The Arabs lost and have been whining about it ever since. Do you agree this is like a murderer who kills his parents and asks for special treatment since he is now an orphan?

3. Can you tell us ANY Arab country which offers Jews the right to be citizens, vote, own property, businesses, be a part of the government or have ANY of the rights which Israeli Arabs enjoy? Any Arab country which gives those rights to Christians? How about to other Arabs? Wouldn’t you just LOVE to be a citizen of Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, or Syria?

4. Since as many Jews (approximately 850,000) were kicked out of Arab countries as were Arabs who left present day Israel (despite being literally begged to stay), why should Arabs be permitted to return to Israel if Jews aren’t allowed to set foot in Arab countries? Can you explain why Arabs can worship freely in Israel but Jews would certainly be hung from street lamps after having their intestines devoured by an Arab mob if they so much as entered an Arab country?

5. Israel resettled and absorbed all of the Jews from Arab countries who wished to become Israelis. Why haven’t any Arab countries offered to resettle Arabs who were displaced from Israel, leaving them to rot for 60 years in squalid refugee camps? And why are those refugee camps still there? Could it be that the billions of dollars that the UNWRA has sent there goes to terrorist groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, El Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or Hezbollah? How did Yassir Arafat achieve his $300 million in wealth? Why aren’t these funds distributed for humanitarian use?

6. Did you know that the Arabs in the disputed territories (conquered by Israel in the 1967 war which was started by Arabs) and who are not Israelis already have two countries right now? And that they are called Egypt and Jordan?

7. If your complaint is about the security fence which Israel is finally building in the Disputed Territories, are you aware that it is built solely to keep the “brave” Arab terrorists out so that they can no longer self detonate on busses, in dining halls or pizzerias and kill Jewish grandmothers and schoolchildren? Why are the Arabs so brave when they target unarmed civilians but even when they outnumber their opponents they get their sandy asses kicked all the way to Mecca when they are faced with Jewish soldiers? Why do Arab soldiers make the French look like super heroes?

8. Please explain why you are so concerned about Arabs, who possess 99% of the land in this region and are in control of the world’s greatest natural resource, which literally flows out of the ground? Can’t their brother muslims offer some of the surplus land and nature’s riches to the “Palestinians”? Or is it true that Arabs are willing to die right down to the last “Palestinian”?

9. Why do you not exhibit the same level of concern for say, people in Saudi Arabia who are beheaded, subject to amputation, stoning, honor killing etc.? What about women who are denied any semblance of basic civil rights, including the right not to be treated as property for the entertainment and abuse of her father, brothers, or husbands? What about the Muslims in Sudan and Egypt who are still enslaved, or the women there whose genitalia are barbarically cut off? How about the oppression of Shiites by Sunnis, the gassing of the Kurds by Iraq, or the massacre of “Palestinians” by Jordan (Black September)? Why doesn’t this concern you?

10. Did you ever stop to wonder how much better off everyone in the region would be if Arabs stopped trying to kill Jews and destroy Israel? What would happen if the Israelis gave up their weapons and disarmed? Would they live to see the next day? But what would happen if the Arabs completely disarmed? You know the answer: They would all be AT PEACE! And if there is no war to rile them up, the Arabs would be forced to look at their own repressive, pre-medieval societies. Why would they want to do that when there are Jews to kill?

11. Have you heard “People who define themselves primarily by what they hate, rather than who they love, are doomed to failure and misery”? Can you see the parallels to the Arabs, who are blessed with land and oil, but still gladly train their children to kill themselves in order to kill Jews? Have you heard Golda Meir’s words to the effect of “There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate ours”? Why do the Arabs hate so much?

Hey, I support Israel as much as anyone who knows what they are talking about, but I still think it's completely wrong to call Muslims "Koranimals". In fact, although I'm not Muslim, I take offence on their behalf.

if israel is going to give all the decendands of the 1948 refugees full rights as israeli citizenship, than the jewish people will revert back to what it tried to solve by creating israel - it's situation as an oppressed minority everywhere it lived.

would the arabs, if given the power, give the current Israelis the ability to live in peace?

Would they not come to the places where they had small villages, and evict the citires of generations living there as "fair compensation"? would they not allow the mobs to loot and pillage, as they did to the men who took the wrong turn and ended up in ra'allah at the start of this intefadda? would they not decide to hold the Jews responsible for their own undoing over the years, and put them in serfdom?

Your whole story is pathetically inaccurate. You see, if the English were the aggressors in your story, it would be more accurate. If they, Germany, Spain, and all the Netherlands attacked France, but France won and took land from all these nations as punishment, and made them pay restitution for war costs, would you see France as being too cruel? I don't even like France, but my story is more accurate. So yes, if a French army was still occupying parts of England today because of a war in which England and several other nations were the aggressors, and France kept parts of England after the war, I would completely approve. And if you want to mention the English, then I need only say two words: Northern Ireland!
:headbang: