NationStates Jolt Archive

::::In response to a deleted thread about Atheists being bigoted::::

Quite frankly, I'm dissappointed in ALL groups who display hateful racism, and reproachful of those who tacitly allow racism within their groups. However...Religion isn't a race.

Still, I'm very much dissappointed in those who disregard the feelings of others just because they don't share their beliefs. "I'm an athiest because there is no god" is perhaps a little callous people? You believe that is true yes? But why state that there is no god? You've said that by stating you were an Athiest right? Its reduntant, and rude to those who have a deep and abiding belief in god.

Its called respect people. Yes, its irratating to constantly hear about "Clthulu saves" when you know darn well he's an elder god and doesn't give a dang about humanity...But let them worship their deity without irratating them with snide comments about tentacle monsters.

"I'm a ____. I believe deeply and profoundly in ___ and I am reasonably sure of my faith. I refuse to allow my faith in ____ to interfere with or unduly discomfort people of other faiths."

Try it sometime. Please? It'll free up the board for more interesting topics about Fast Boats and Dan, who'd Rather be doing something else.

Its called respect people. Yes, its irratating to constantly hear about "Clthulu saves" when you know darn well he's an elder god and doesn't give a dang about humanity...But let them worship their deity without irratating them with snide comments about tentacle monsters.

"I'm a ____. I believe deeply and profoundly in ___ and I am reasonably sure of my faith. I refuse to allow my faith in ____ to interfere with or unduly discomfort people of other faiths."

Try it sometime. Please? It'll free up the board for more interesting topics about Fast Boats and Dan, who'd Rather be doing something else.

see, and that's the problem; i hold my beliefs, i express them clearly and respectfully, and (having done that) i don't give a flying fark if they make anybody uncomfortable. in fact, i think a lot of people need to be made to feel uncomfortable about their beliefs, because those beliefs are logically inconsistent, hypocritical, dangerous, or just flat out disproven. i will respect their right to hold those beliefs, but i won't respect the beliefs or the fact that they have chosen to believe in them.

if my ammusement at religious superstitions bothers somebody then that's their problem...i think they are funny, just like i think a person wearing a armadillo costume and singing "On Top Of Spaghetti" while hula-hooping is funny. if they are bothered by the fact that i find them funny then they can explain to me why wearing an armadillo costume and singing and hula-hooping is required by their imaginary friend in the sky, and i will listen with all due patience, but i am not going to pretend like their logic makes sense if it doesn't. if they can come up with logically consistent and reasonable supports for their behavior then more power to them, and i will respect them for that, but if they expect me to respect them just because they have an opinion then they have another thing coming.

EDIT: of course, i'm not an atheist, so perhaps i shouldn't speak up. i wouldn't want people to think i am an example they can use against atheists in general.

oh, and does anybody know why that original thread was locked? it was a good discussion topic, making the distinction between racism and "religionism" and openning up the issue of what criterion you may use to judge others. was there naughty behavior going on that i didn't catch?

::::In response to a deleted thread about Atheists being bigoted::::

Quite frankly, I'm dissappointed in ALL groups who display hateful racism, and reproachful of those who tacitly allow racism within their groups. However...Religion isn't a race.

Hate to be an ass, but you're mistaking bigotry with racism.

Noun: bigotry
The intolerance and prejudice of a bigot

Noun: bigot
A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

Bigotry has nothing to do with race. Just wanted to point that out.

Does anyone feel like defining tolerance? My Concise Oxford Dictionary has "endure, permit, forbear to judge harshly or rigorously" for tolerate.
My question is, does tolerance require that you agree with everybody? Does it require that you do not challenge anybody's beliefs?
It seems like, sometimes, some people are saying, "When I challenge your deeply-held beliefs, I'm promoting tolerance, because you're wrong, but when you challenge my beliefs, you're a bigot".

Does anyone feel like defining tolerance? My Concise Oxford Dictionary has "endure, permit, forbear to judge harshly or rigorously" for tolerate.
My question is, does tolerance require that you agree with everybody? Does it require that you do not challenge anybody's beliefs?
It seems like, sometimes, some people are saying, "When I challenge your deeply-held beliefs, I'm promoting tolerance, because you're wrong, but when you challenge my beliefs, you're a bigot".

To me, tolerance consists of several key elements. To be tolerant of a belief or idea, a person must be allowed to hold that belief without harassment, violence, persecution, or the threat of any of the aforementioned.

Tolerance does not require acceptance (in my opinion), nor does it suggest you should not be allowed to challenge a belief or idea. However, I do believe tolerance means they are not under any obligation to defend their beliefs if they do not wish to.

That's just a rough draft, but you get the idea.

To me, tolerance consists of several key elements. To be tolerant of a belief or idea, a person must be allowed to hold that belief without harassment, violence, persecution, or the threat of any of the aforementioned.

Tolerance does not require acceptance (in my opinion), nor does it suggest you should not be allowed to challenge a belief or idea. However, I do believe tolerance means they are not under any obligation to defend their beliefs if they do not wish to.

That's just a rough draft, but you get the idea.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, Sydenia. Would you agree with me that there are some beliefs and ideas that should not be tolerated (extreme examples like "Children enjoy sexual touching" come to mind)? Assuming you agree with me on this general point, how does a society decide which beliefs/ideas are to be tolerated, and which are, rightly, NOT to be tolerated?

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, Sydenia. Would you agree with me that there are some beliefs and ideas that should not be tolerated (extreme examples like "Children enjoy sexual touching" come to mind)? Assuming you agree with me on this general point, how does a society decide which beliefs/ideas are to be tolerated, and which are, rightly, NOT to be tolerated?
hope you don't mind my putting my nose in to answer this...

i think every single BELIEF should be tolerated, including racist beliefs, NAMBLA beliefs, and the belief that women should be barefoot in the kitchen. however, many ACTIONS should be prohibited, such as dicrimination in the work place or in government, any sexual contact with a child, or attempts to force females into servitude.

people can believe whatever they want, and they can talk about it as much as they please, but they are NOT free to act in any way they want; the rights and safety of other humans trumps their beliefs in many cases.

::::In response to a deleted thread about Atheists being bigoted::::

Quite frankly, I'm dissappointed in ALL groups who display hateful racism, and reproachful of those who tacitly allow racism within their groups. However...Religion isn't a race.

Still, I'm very much dissappointed in those who disregard the feelings of others just because they don't share their beliefs. "I'm an athiest because there is no god" is perhaps a little callous people? You believe that is true yes? But why state that there is no god? You've said that by stating you were an Athiest right? Its reduntant, and rude to those who have a deep and abiding belief in god.

Its called respect people. Yes, its irratating to constantly hear about "Clthulu saves" when you know darn well he's an elder god and doesn't give a dang about humanity...But let them worship their deity without irratating them with snide comments about tentacle monsters.

"I'm a ____. I believe deeply and profoundly in ___ and I am reasonably sure of my faith. I refuse to allow my faith in ____ to interfere with or unduly discomfort people of other faiths."

Try it sometime. Please? It'll free up the board for more interesting topics about Fast Boats and Dan, who'd Rather be doing something else.
I respectfully dissent. Religion is not a matter of personal opinion. People are killing and dying for religion, which is both unacceptable. Even referring to a god in the treatment of co-humans is inacceptable (e.g. Bush does that all the time). And one must question were the roots for such behavior are in the respective religion.
And then there is the problem that most people do not even know what really the beliefs are of their own religion. And I guess Christians are worst in this.

I just find it cool that Atheists are almost exclusively anti-Christian while pretty much ignoring the other 20,000 religions on the planet.

I practice Caddo spirituality and have never felt the sting of the Atheist agenda.

"I'm a ____. I believe deeply and profoundly in ___ and I am reasonably sure of my faith. I refuse to allow my faith in ____ to interfere with or unduly discomfort people of other faiths."



There's a problem with that.

If you're "reasonably sure" of something, you dont have *faith* in it.
Faith is belief without regard for reason or evidence.

i think they are funny, just like i think a person wearing a armadillo costume and singing "On Top Of Spaghetti" while hula-hooping is funny.

Where can I get one of these armadillo suits, Bottle? Seriously, I'd pay good money for an armadillo suit.

As to Atheists being offensive by saying there is no god(s)... well, aren't religious people being just as offensive to Atheists when they state emphatically that there is a god(s)?

Now I'm don't think that "Political Correctness is for teh pansies!" like some people seem to, but honestly, if your skin is so thin that you get offended when someone says there's no god (or even that your god is a false god) than you aren't going to survive long in the real world.

What mystifies me is the vehement opposition of some atheists to any mention of God or religion whatever. Why be so afraid of something which to you is nonexistent?

What mystifies me is the vehement opposition of some atheists to any mention of God or religion whatever. Why be so afraid of something which to you is nonexistent?

Avignon, for the same reason that Jews are opposed to antisemitic sentiments in culture. Anti semitic propaganda may have no basis in reality, but it is still a powerful motivator because it takes concrete form in the thoughts and actions of people.

Ditto religion. We can see the influence of strong religous belief shaping national policy in places like dark ages europe, iran, and taliban afghanistan.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, Sydenia. Would you agree with me that there are some beliefs and ideas that should not be tolerated (extreme examples like "Children enjoy sexual touching" come to mind)? Assuming you agree with me on this general point, how does a society decide which beliefs/ideas are to be tolerated, and which are, rightly, NOT to be tolerated?
Societies don't hold beliefs, individuals do. Society doesn't decide which to tolerate, individuals do.

There's a problem with that.

If you're "reasonably sure" of something, you dont have *faith* in it.
Faith is belief without regard for reason or evidence.
Faith is being absolultely sure without reason or evidence.

......................................hammeritme!!!!

Avignon, for the same reason that Jews are opposed to antisemitic sentiments in culture. Anti semitic propaganda may have no basis in reality, but it is still a powerful motivator because it takes concrete form in the thoughts and actions of people.

Ditto religion. We can see the influence of strong religous belief shaping national policy in places like dark ages europe, iran, and taliban afghanistan.
And the south-eastern United States.

I just find it cool that Atheists are almost exclusively anti-Christian while pretty much ignoring the other 20,000 religions on the planet.

I practice Caddo spirituality and have never felt the sting of the Atheist agenda.

I believe this boils down to a) christianity having a very special place for atheists... to not believe in christ is to be 'anti-christ'.
b) The fact that christians are a very dominant force in the western world, and becoming increasingly obvious in the 'westernised' nations, elsewhere - thus making themselves the most obvious target... since most people on the forum will be in close proximity to many christians.
c) A lot of faiths don't mind atheists. Christianity seems to take it as a direct affront for someone not to believe in their version of god. The reason I stopped attending my wife's church with her was a sermon about how the christian church needed to TAKE THE MESSAGE OF CHRIST to the barbarians of the middle-east, who would all "be christians if they knew any better".

and finally:

d) There are atheists trapped in close confines with other religions. They do not receive much publicity in the christ-centric west. Salman Rushdie is an example of someone rebelling against organised Islam.

What mystifies me is the vehement opposition of some atheists to any mention of God or religion whatever. Why be so afraid of something which to you is nonexistent?
easy...atheists are not scared of or worried about God, because they don't believe there is a God to be scared of. what they are scared of is people who BELIEVE in God, and the things those people do as a result of their belief.

try on this situation: there's a chap standing over on that corner who really really strongly believes in a giant invisible fire-breathing lion that follows him every where he goes. he asks it for advice when he doesn't know what to do, and he bases his moral judgments on what the lion would want him to do. he believes that eating potatoes is evil and will incur the penalty of having your soul torn to pieces by the fire-breathing lion, so he is actively trying to get all potato-related activities banned.

no matter how nice a guy he seems to be, you have to admit you would be a little more nervous around somebody like that then you would be around a person who accepts that it is unlikely there is an invisible fire-breathing lion directing all of human existence. it's not that you are afraid of the lion, since you don't believe in it, but you're a little worried about people who believe in the lion; after all, if they are irrational enough to believe in the lion, they might be irrational enough to do a whole host of other scary stuff. and if they start wanting to dictate national policies based on the commands of the lion...well, that's just going to have to stop.

i feel about all religious persons the way you probably feel about the lion-believer. i don't hate them, i don't want to hurt them, and i certainly don't think it's my job to stop them from believing in whatever invisible friend they want. i would like to help them, and i want to prevent them from making invisible-friend-related laws that restrict my freedoms, but i don't mean them any personal harm. i think they are ill, and they would live fuller and more productive lives if they could be helped to let go of their dependence on superstition, but i don't hate them any more than i hate a drug addict...i want to cure the addiction, not beat up the addict or outlaw the drug :).

What mystifies me is the vehement opposition of some atheists to any mention of God or religion whatever. Why be so afraid of something which to you is nonexistent?
Because the alleged will of a deity can be used to justify deeds and thoughts that otherwise would be immoral and inacceptible.

And let me tell you something in this regard: the (final) answer to the question if god exists is not important. The question is though. Because it is the question that lets us think about who we are and how we should behave in this world. Because the question about god is the question about our own responsibilities.

I would define bigotry as a sort of an condescending attitude towards those who do not share your faith. The sort of an "oh come on, grow up" attitude you find when discussing with fundamentalists of any sort. Persistent verbal assaults and often bad grammar skills.

On the other hand, real zealots are more than just irritating or annoying, these guys might go as far as invading your personal space if you refuse to listen to "the truth". These folks could do with some chemically induced re-edecation, they are nothing but trouble. As long as a person I am talking with understands that no means no I have no problems with them, whatever their beliefs. If they do not, discussion ends.

easy...i feel about all religious persons the way you probably feel about the lion-believer. i don't hate them, i don't want to hurt them, and i certainly don't think it's my job to stop them from believing in whatever invisible friend they want. i would like to help them, and i want to prevent them from making invisible-friend-related laws that restrict my freedoms, but i don't mean them any personal harm. i think they are ill, and they would live fuller and more productive lives if they could be helped to let go of their dependence on superstition, but i don't hate them any more than i hate a drug addict...i want to cure the addiction, not beat up the addict or outlaw the drug :).

I agree strongly with the firebreathing lion bit. However, curing or "helping the people who believe in it? Religious friends and relatives tell me all the time that they don't "hate me or even dislike me for my misguided beliefs, they just want to help me find my way," and I find that more than just irritating. It makes my blood boil, because these people are actually saying to me: "it's not like you're a bad person...it's just that you're wrong and I'm right" and you CAN'T ARGUE WITH THEM! Because thats just what they believe, and you can't something people just believe, blindly, unquestioningly, lovingly believe, and have believed for most of their lives. Right? And yet, they suggest that they can change the nature of my very identity....

The point though, is that I don't think anyone would be right in saying that they would like to change anyone elses' beliefs. That's a note on tolerance, too. As long as they're not hurting anyone (aside from maybe themselves) there's no reason to even suggest that they're wrong or that they should change. Of course, when you get into people trying to impose their belief on the system of life around them, that policy quickly becomes a problem.

Let's face it, no society is free of common belief. The United States has continuosly disallowed polygamy - and why? Because we believe it's wrong. Why? Because that's what our society and our religion(s) have told us since we were very little. So what do we do about things like that?

I agree strongly with the firebreathing lion bit. However, curing or "helping the people who believe in it? Religious friends and relatives tell me all the time that they don't "hate me or even dislike me for my misguided beliefs, they just want to help me find my way," and I find that more than just irritating. It makes my blood boil, because these people are actually saying to me: "it's not like you're a bad person...it's just that you're wrong and I'm right" and you CAN'T ARGUE WITH THEM! Because thats just what they believe, and you can't something people just believe, blindly, unquestioningly, lovingly believe, and have believed for most of their lives. Right? And yet, they suggest that they can change the nature of my very identity....

The point though, is that I don't think anyone would be right in saying that they would like to change anyone elses' beliefs. That's a note on tolerance, too. As long as they're not hurting anyone (aside from maybe themselves) there's no reason to even suggest that they're wrong or that they should change.

that's just the thing, though...i believe they are harming both themselves and others by their religious beliefs, particularly if they have children. i also care enough about other people that i want to help them deal with addictions. i don't pursue people trying to get them to change, since i know that will never work, but if they come to me with questions or show interest in exploring alternatives i will help them in every way possible.

my general approach is not to convince people to abandon religion, but to make it so they don't feel they need it any more. by improving people's lives and the world around us, we reduce their need to cling to superstitious security blankets. by making Earth a paradise, we eliminate the need for some fairy tale about heaven.



Of course, when you get into people trying to impose their belief on the system of life around them, that policy quickly becomes a problem.

exactly. and that is almost always the case.


Let's face it, no society is free of common belief. The United States has continuosly disallowed polygamy - and why? Because we believe it's wrong. Why? Because that's what our society and our religion(s) have told us since we were very little. So what do we do about things like that?
i don't believe polygamy is wrong, never have, and i have lived in the US my whole life. i don't believe the state should have ANY role in marriage at all, but if it is going to have a role then i believe it should recognize ALL unions; heterosexual, homosexual, plural, etc. what i do about my feelings on this subject is campaign and become politically involved.