NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, folks someone is trying to sneak this bill HR163 under our noses. Look it up for your self at:

http://thomas.loc.gov/

Bill Number- HR163

Yes, folks someone is trying to sneak this bill HR163 under our noses. Look it up for your self at:

http://thomas.loc.gov/

Bill Number- HR163
Old...

Actually, I don't think it's been through the house and senate yet, but I don't think it'll pass. People would go apeshit if they found a draft card in their mail box.

Bastards. They better not try to draft me, or anyone else from NS! :mad:

Rummy has the option of emergency authorities anyway. If he wanted to seriously increase the USAF, he'd simply declare emergency (maybe with the help of a tiny terrorist attack such as nuking some unimportant town in the pampa of the US) and then installing martial law. End of "democracy" - in with corporate police dictatorship. Welcome in the US of the 21st century ;)

Just science-fiction, but it is a possibility.

It's been sitting for over a year and a half.

It's been sitting for over a year and a half.
And it was written and sponsored by Democrats.

It'll be only a matter of time if Bush is indeed *shudder* reelected.

Bastards. They better not try to draft me, or anyone else from NS! :mad:

Hell no! Most would just try to n00k the world
:p

And it was written and sponsored by Democrats.

You know what would be ironic? If Bush is re-elected, the Republicans pick this up and pass it.

Hell no! Most would just try to n00k the world
:p
:rolleyes: great, just what we need, n00bs in the army - the world is fucked!

Heh, heh, heh...

Okay, I'm not sure what the effect would be. I'm sure I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the effect. That said, it COULD be pretty darn interesting.

Will you idiots ever figure it out?!?!

Nobody wants a draft!
The DOD doesn't want a draft!
The White House doesn't want a draft!
The Public doesn't want a draft!
And Congress doesn't want a draft!

The threat of a draft is just something that Congress uses to distract the media away from more important issues, and it works, everytime, those dumbasses fall for it over and over again.

Will you idiots ever figure it out?!?!

Nobody wants a draft!
The DOD doesn't want a draft!
The White House doesn't want a draft!
The Public doesn't want a draft!
And Congress doesn't want a draft!

The threat of a draft is just something that Congress uses to distract the media away from more important issues, and it works, everytime, those dumbasses fall for it over and over again.

Quite right. It would be political suicide for any politician, Republican or Democrat, who voted for it.

Bush and the Republicans don't want a draft.
Just typical Democrat scare tactics.

Various reinstating the draft bills have been floating arround in the US congress since about 1977. This particular would probably not be voted for by Rangel if it a snowball's chance of passing, the bill is just a piece of propaganda to show the unwillingness of the rich and powerful to put their kids on the line in military service while sending blacks and poor children to fight in their wars. It ignores the fact that combat types are whiter and richer than the support types who stay in the US, people for whom the Army is a career choice don't get "shoot me" jobs, people who serve a term out of patriotism/duty tend to get the dangerous jobs. If you were in charge of the military would you risk a soldier with 10 years of experience who's going to be arround for at least annother 10 over a brat just out of basic who you might get annother 2 years of service from?

Some on the left say that being in the military turns a person into a fascist. If only!

But on a serious note, this whole thing reeks of Kerry's desparation. Bush is as likely to impose the draft as he is to try to force through Congress funding for a manned expedition to Mars. It's not going to happen.Nonsense, this bill has been around since well before Kerry was even the canidate presumptive. Unless you're commenting on the way various variants of this thread have suddenly cropped up on numerous BBS recently.

If any President either John Kerry or George "W" Bush enacted this draft not only would the current government be completely and uterly screwed. The only way that this would ever work is if they decleared a Marital Law. Now in that case they wouldn't have enough supporters other than fat-f***s in Washington that don't use their collective brains for anythig good. Now you all understand an entire nation could easily kill every last on of them, but we as a nation would not go to that. We would instead await till the end and comepletely and utterly get rid of every single member of our government and replace them with better smart fat-f***s. Then they would just happen to go missing every so often but no one would care because they would have deserved it.

I wish that this would not happen because I am completely 100% American and do not wish for us to have those kind of problems. So hopefully those fat-f***s will use their brain this time and not do a single thing that would allow this to pass.

Squi - Nice job with that. Exactly what I was thinking as well

people for whom the Army is a career choice don't get "shoot me" jobs

I scored a 95 (out of 99) on my ASVAB and I chose Airborne, wanna change your little statement. And people who have been in the Army for 10 years have quite often achieved a rank to where they do not have to be on the front line, sometimes they will have already served their needed time on the front and can not be sent. The Army has a policy, after you have seen 2 combat zones they can not force you to go again, obviously that only applies to minor conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq, North Korea will be a different story.

If any President either John Kerry or George "W" Bush enacted this draft not only would the current government be completely and uterly screwed. The only way that this would ever work is if they decleared a Marital Law. Now in that case they wouldn't have enough supporters other than fat-f***s in Washington that don't use their collective brains for anythig good. Now you all understand an entire nation could easily kill every last on of them, but we as a nation would not go to that. We would instead await till the end and comepletely and utterly get rid of every single member of our government and replace them with better smart fat-f***s. Then they would just happen to go missing every so often but no one would care because they would have deserved it.

I wish that this would not happen because I am completely 100% American and do not wish for us to have those kind of problems. So hopefully those fat-f***s will use their brain this time and not do a single thing that would allow this to pass.

No, they will not have to declare Martial Law, Vietnam taught the DOD an important lesson, conscript armies are very ineffiecent, the only way we are going to reinstate the draft is if we are invaded or if we are in a major world war, again.

It'll be only a matter of time if Bush is indeed *shudder* reelected.

What do you me "Re-elected" He was appointed not elected.

No, they will not have to declare Martial Law, Vietnam taught the DOD an important lesson, conscript armies are very ineffiecent, the only way we are going to reinstate the draft is if we are invaded or if we are in a major world war, again.
According to members of the US administration the war on terror is a third (or even the fourth) world war. What now? If it is necessary to secure the Middle East, probably more countries in the future more troops are needed. Overthrowing governments is one thing. But securing them another. And for that you can´t avoid using manpower - much manpower. For that you can´t use technology. You need the footsoldier.

GOOD LORD! This is the third one of these on page one. Is TRA running posting bot now?

This bill is old. The draft is dead and gone. Get over it.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What do you me "Re-elected" He was appointed not elected.

And who appointed him? (And don't be stupid and say the Supreme Court.)
BTW, you are aware when the recounts were finished, Bush did have the greater number of votes in Florida, aren't you.
:rolleyes:

stop making threads about this :headbang:

Lol, I'm the only person who thinks that drafting should be legal.

The Armed Forces sometimes need more soldiers than they have already. Sometimes the only way to get those soldiers is by drafting.

In Canada,the goverment retains the right to use military draft if they feel like,but I doubt they would do it unless there was some sort of national emergency.The don't need the army too keep control,we have a national police force.But I personally feel its a good thing for a country to have around.

Lol, I'm the only person who thinks that drafting should be legal.
The Armed Forces sometimes need more soldiers than they have already. Sometimes the only way to get those soldiers is by drafting.
It is legal and used in many European countries still. I´m not a fan of such a system. But there can be situation where it is necessary to do it: for example if it is not possible to get enough personal through other ways.
So, in that sense I would agree with you.

I scored a 95 (out of 99) on my ASVAB and I chose Airborne, wanna change your little statement. And people who have been in the Army for 10 years have quite often achieved a rank to where they do not have to be on the front line, sometimes they will have already served their needed time on the front and can not be sent. The Army has a policy, after you have seen 2 combat zones they can not force you to go again, obviously that only applies to minor conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq, North Korea will be a different story.It wasn't intended as an absolute, just the general tendency. I'm quite surprised that someone who intends to spend the next 20 or 30 years in the army chose Airborne, are you planning on becoming an instructor or something when you get older?

It ignores the fact that combat types are whiter and richer than the support types who stay in the US, people for whom the Army is a career choice don't get "shoot me" jobs, people who serve a term out of patriotism/duty tend to get the dangerous jobs. If you were in charge of the military would you risk a soldier with 10 years of experience who's going to be arround for at least annother 10 over a brat just out of basic who you might get annother 2 years of service from?

I missed this the first time around. Squi, you know absolutely nothing about the military.

Lol, I'm the only person who thinks that drafting should be legal.

The Armed Forces sometimes need more soldiers than they have already. Sometimes the only way to get those soldiers is by drafting.

I am pro-draft but it is not applicable in a country like the US, Israel on the other hand is a prime example of a successful military draft.

It wasn't intended as an absolute, just the general tendency. I'm quite surprised that someone who intends to spend the next 20 or 30 years in the army chose Airborne, are you planning on becoming an instructor or something when you get older?

I don't really have a "plan" right now, just get in, do my first 4 years, and see what happens, if I don't like it then I guess I leave, use the money they give me for college, and get another job. And I am not already obligated to go Airborne, I am an 11X, that is just Infantry, the bastards in Congress froze all enlistments into the Airborne between the time when I first started signing papers and the time I took my physical and signed my contract, so now I am just standard infantry and the more I think about it the more I like it to be honest. I get to spend one 12-18 month tour of duty in Europe, if I get Airborne I go to Italy, if I don't I go to Germany, which means Amsterdam is all the more closer. ;)

I don't really have a "plan" right now, just get in, do my first 4 years, and see what happens, if I don't like it then I guess I leave, use the money they give me for college, and get another job. And I am not already obligated to go Airborne, I am an 11X, that is just Infantry, the bastards in Congress froze all enlistments into the Airborne between the time when I first started signing papers and the time I took my physical and signed my contract, so now I am just standard infantry and the more I think about it the more I like it to be honest. I get to spend one 12-18 month tour of duty in Europe, if I get Airborne I go to Italy, if I don't I go to Germany, which means Amsterdam is all the more closer. ;)Then you're not picking the military as a career choice are you? It may wind up being a career, but you aren't planning a career in the military so my general trend still holds. Ah the good old fine print, everything subject to change at whim of congress and the needs of the service and all that. Yep, spent a few months running a buffing machine myself to meet the needs of the Navy.

Various reinstating the draft bills have been floating arround in the US congress since about 1977. This particular would probably not be voted for by Rangel if it a snowball's chance of passing, the bill is just a piece of propaganda to show the unwillingness of the rich and powerful to put their kids on the line in military service while sending blacks and poor children to fight in their wars. It ignores the fact that combat types are whiter and richer than the support types who stay in the US, people for whom the Army is a career choice don't get "shoot me" jobs, people who serve a term out of patriotism/duty tend to get the dangerous jobs. If you were in charge of the military would you risk a soldier with 10 years of experience who's going to be arround for at least annother 10 over a brat just out of basic who you might get annother 2 years of service from?

Said by a person who obviously is not a veteran of either a peace time or war time military.

In a way your right, an infantry troop that is deployed will put a newbie on point rather than a salted veteran. But I assure you, there are just as many blooded troops out in the field as there are newbies. There has to be as you need combat vets out there to lead the newbies who will get themselves killed and not get the mission accomplished.

Bastards. They better not try to draft me, or anyone else from NS! :mad:

GASP! How dare you speak that way about Democrats! Be careful, or they'll sic Teresa Heinz-Kerry on ya! TSK!

I scored a 95 (out of 99) on my ASVAB and I chose Airborne, wanna change your little statement. And people who have been in the Army for 10 years have quite often achieved a rank to where they do not have to be on the front line, sometimes they will have already served their needed time on the front and can not be sent. The Army has a policy, after you have seen 2 combat zones they can not force you to go again, obviously that only applies to minor conflicts like Afghanistan and Iraq, North Korea will be a different story.

Good for you! I had six years of active duty, two of them in Vietnam. Got shot at a number of times, and only got "wounded" twice, both of them just scratches, so I didn't want a Purple Heart for either one, unlike Kerry, since that's the only medal most guys who lost a leg or arm recieved.

I was going to stay in the Reserves or Guard until they tossed my butt out for being too old, but a military parachute jump gone bad ended my career at 19 years and one month. They rated me at 40% disabled, so I get just enough to live on ( almost ) each month. ( Shrug ) Stuff happens. :)

I find it fascinating, and considerbly disheartening, that many of the same people who spit on us and called us baby-killers when we returned from Vietnam, are now the same phooles who rant about the US being an "aggressor nation" and "occupying" Iraq. In my opinion, these folks are either stupid, woefully misinformed, or have a hidden agenda of some sort.

I bet that if there is a draft declared, the number of gay people will skyrocket. ;)

GOOD LORD! This is the third one of these on page one. Is TRA running posting bot now?

This bill is old. The draft is dead and gone. Get over it.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
The draft isn’t dead, it’s just dormant. The selective service system, which controls the draft, is still around.

I bet that if there is a draft declared, the number of gay people will skyrocket. ;)

When you enlist you have to read a 13 page contract that says "no queers allowed." Basically it says you have to actually be gay, they will do a background check, the FBI and CIA know alot about the American public, if it is a one time deal to try and get kicked from the Army the opposite will happen.

To Squi:
Yes, I want to go Career in the Army, but things change, if in 4 years it looks like the Army may not be the best choice for me I will not re-enlist, and I am also considering the Marines for my re-enlistment. I am gonna pay the $1,200 so I can get the money from College from the Montgomery G.I. Bill but I doubt I will use it, I hate school, hence why I am joining the Army, I am smarter than most of my teachers, especially my History teacher, and I refuse to do the HW. (As you may be able to tell the only classes that challenge me are the English classes, I can read and write well enough to get my oint across, why do I have to take 4 years of the same shit over and over again.) The Army is more hands on, learn while doing it, lnot listening to the monotonous droning of the teachers, makes for an easy nap though.

When you enlist you have to read a 13 page contract that says "no queers allowed." Basically it says you have to actually be gay, they will do a background check, the FBI and CIA know alot about the American public, if it is a one time deal to try and get kicked from the Army the opposite will happen.

To Squi:
Yes, I want to go Career in the Army, but things change, if in 4 years it looks like the Army may not be the best choice for me I will not re-enlist, and I am also considering the Marines for my re-enlistment. I am gonna pay the $1,200 so I can get the money from College from the Montgomery G.I. Bill but I doubt I will use it, I hate school, hence why I am joining the Army, I am smarter than most of my teachers, especially my History teacher, and I refuse to do the HW. (As you may be able to tell the only classes that challenge me are the English classes, I can read and write well enough to get my oint across, why do I have to take 4 years of the same shit over and over again.) The Army is more hands on, learn while doing it, lnot listening to the monotonous droning of the teachers, makes for an easy nap though.

I bet if you and a good buddy also looking to dodge the draft showed up together and boinked in the recruiting office, they'd pretty much take it as a given. ;)

Quite right. It would be political suicide for any politician, Republican or Democrat, who voted for it.
Except that the Democrats who sponsored this abomination are the type that have nothing to fear, since they all could murder someone on camera, or pull a "Marion Barry" and still get re-elected. Kinda like Marion Barry when you think about it.

Except that the Democrats who sponsored this abomination are the type that have nothing to fear, since they all could murder someone on camera, or pull a "Marion Barry" and still get re-elected. Kinda like Marion Barry when you think about it.


Yeah, what was the deal with that? I guess some people really do deserve the govt they get.

The draft isn’t dead, it’s just dormant. The selective service system, which controls the draft, is still around.
Selective Service...instituted by...who was it...oh, yeah, Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter, a Democrat.

The draft isn’t dead, it’s just dormant. The selective service system, which controls the draft, is still around.

The SSS is simply a dinosaur/boogyman. It's only real use is for scaremongering - ooggy ooogggy oooooggggggyyyyy - the bad old government's gonna draft ya if ya aren't good.

I am pro-draft but it is not applicable in a country like the US, Israel on the other hand is a prime example of a successful military draft.

Which would explain the growing resistance to conscription in Israel, right?

Said by a person who obviously is not a veteran of either a peace time or war time military.

In a way your right, an infantry troop that is deployed will put a newbie on point rather than a salted veteran. But I assure you, there are just as many blooded troops out in the field as there are newbies. There has to be as you need combat vets out there to lead the newbies who will get themselves killed and not get the mission accomplished.I did my bit some 20 years ago in peacetime.

Where I am talking about the military as a whole, you are refering to small bits of that whole. Thats what statistics and general trends are all about. Combat experince is not what I am talking about, I am talking about years in the service, and while a good number of people in combat positions have several years of service already in, the proportion of long term service personel is much higher is support units than in combat units - there is statistically a lessening of this gap, but the gap is still there. Again this is not an absolute, not everyone in a combat slot has spent less time in the service than everyone not in a combat slot, but overall this is true. For one thing, people in the military tend to go up in rate as they spend more time in service, higher rate means more responsability and you become less likely to be out in the danger areas, an RSM is nowhere as near to danger as gunnery sargant in an infantry platoon, is not as near danger as a lance corp. in a rifle team. There are many reasons why the proportion of long term personel in combat positions is lower than the proportion of long term personel in noncombat positions, I gave a few of the easiest to explain because I just didn;t feel it necessary to go into pages of detail, and if you really to know all the factors that contribute to this observed phenomena look up a RAND report on it from last year.

Yes, I want to go Career in the Army, but things change, if in 4 years it looks like the Army may not be the best choice for me I will not re-enlist, and I am also considering the Marines for my re-enlistment. I am gonna pay the $1,200 so I can get the money from College from the Montgomery G.I. Bill but I doubt I will use it, I hate school, hence why I am joining the Army, I am smarter than most of my teachers, especially my History teacher, and I refuse to do the HW. (As you may be able to tell the only classes that challenge me are the English classes, I can read and write well enough to get my oint across, why do I have to take 4 years of the same shit over and over again.) The Army is more hands on, learn while doing it, lnot listening to the monotonous droning of the teachers, makes for an easy nap though.
I would suggest keeping an eye on the marine choice. I don't know from anything but what I've been told, but the army seems to play more games with people than the marines do. College is better than high school for having people with something to teach, but you really have to pick the instructors carefully - look at the adjunct faculty who teach classes because they love the field (as a general rule, not an absolute darn it). If you do go career, taking a few night or extension courses (if you get the time, not often possible) is a good idea, even if you never get a degree.

I did my bit some 20 years ago in peacetime.

Where I am talking about the military as a whole, you are refering to small bits of that whole. Thats what statistics and general trends are all about. Combat experince is not what I am talking about, I am talking about years in the service, and while a good number of people in combat positions have several years of service already in, the proportion of long term service personel is much higher is support units than in combat units - there is statistically a lessening of this gap, but the gap is still there. Again this is not an absolute, not everyone in a combat slot has spent less time in the service than everyone not in a combat slot, but overall this is true. For one thing, people in the military tend to go up in rate as they spend more time in service, higher rate means more responsability and you become less likely to be out in the danger areas, an RSM is nowhere as near to danger as gunnery sargant in an infantry platoon, is not as near danger as a lance corp. in a rifle team. There are many reasons why the proportion of long term personel in combat positions is lower than the proportion of long term personel in noncombat positions, I gave a few of the easiest to explain because I just didn;t feel it necessary to go into pages of detail, and if you really to know all the factors that contribute to this observed phenomena look up a RAND report on it from last year.


Ah, my apologies for my mistaken assumption, as I misunderstood what you were saying. You wouldn't happen to have a link to that report?

Ah, my apologies for my mistaken assumption, as I misunderstood what you were saying. You wouldn't happen to have a link to that report?No, I read it in hardcopy. I'm pretty sure it was prepared for the DOD and released by them under RAND's name but I am not positive.

The SSS is simply a dinosaur/boogyman. It's only real use is for scaremongering - ooggy ooogggy oooooggggggyyyyy - the bad old government's gonna draft ya if ya aren't good.
People say the same thing about Volcanoes that have been dormant for too long just as they're about to erupt.

People say the same thing about Volcanoes that have been dormant for too long just as they're about to erupt.

Good analogy. Not!
Volcanos are a phenominon out of human control. Conscription is completely under human control. It's not like there's going top be a surprise explosion of conscription. :rolleyes:
The US military knows professionals make better soldiers than conscripts. The politicians know this. They also know that conscription is a hot button issue that will not pass, but is useful as a threat in frightening people.

Good analogy. Not!
Volcanos are a phenominon out of human control. Conscription is completely under human control. It's not like there's going top be a surprise explosion of conscription. :rolleyes:
The US military knows professionals make better soldiers than conscripts. The politicians know this. They also know that conscription is a hot button issue that will not pass, but is useful as a threat in frightening people.
The possibility of a large scale war still exists where it may become necessary to conscript a large number of people for military service. In the case of a real emergency they wont hesitate much to reinstate the draft.

The possibility of a large scale war still exists where it may become necessary to conscript a large number of people for military service. In the case of a real emergency they wont hesitate much to reinstate the draft.

Completely untrue, especially with modern technology.

1) The US military has been getting a surplus of volunteers, to such a point that they have had to increase enlistment standards, effectively turning people away.
2) The congress currently has a cap on military personnel and spending on military personnel.
3) When the US has used conscription, conscripts have generally been between 5 and 15% of military forces.

If (and that is a big if) we need a bump of 5 - 15%, we have the short term option of increasing spending and the long term option of increasing efficiency (a greater number of unmanned vehicles, greater efficiency in design, and so forth). Furthermore, as seen in Iraq, there has been a sgnificant increasing in the use of contractors for non-combat personnel. If need be, we can contract out the vast majority maintainance and logistics tasks.

Will you idiots ever figure it out?!?!

Nobody wants a draft!
The DOD doesn't want a draft!
The White House doesn't want a draft!
The Public doesn't want a draft!
And Congress doesn't want a draft!

The threat of a draft is just something that Congress uses to distract the media away from more important issues, and it works, everytime, those dumbasses fall for it over and over again.

Prove it.

Prove it.
Why the draft won't work (http://strategypage.com/search.asp?target=d:\inetpub\strategypageroot\dls\docs1999\draft%20and%20why.htm&search=draft%20never)
Why the draft is dead and gone (http://strategypage.com/search.asp?target=d:\inetpub\strategypageroot\dls\docs\200459.htm&search=draft%20never)
Draft unlikely to return (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04145/321235.stm)

:rolleyes:

I'm getting tired of all the scare-mongers who keep repeating this bit of nonsense.

Which would explain the growing resistance to conscription in Israel, right?

When the Arab countries invade again the Israeli;s will once again see the need for a draft and wil not complain for another 20 years.

Completely untrue, especially with modern technology.

1) The US military has been getting a surplus of volunteers, to such a point that they have had to increase enlistment standards, effectively turning people away.
2) The congress currently has a cap on military personnel and spending on military personnel.


Those are good points, and why I did not get my Airborne, fucking bastards in Congress give the go ahead for the Army to recruit 1,000 people for the Airborne, and then one week later they freeze it.

And who appointed him? (And don't be stupid and say the Supreme Court.)
BTW, you are aware when the recounts were finished, Bush did have the greater number of votes in Florida, aren't you.
:rolleyes:
Well, I'd say his brother and Daddy Bush appointed him.

And no, the final recuont showed that Gore had won, but Bush got in office by then and it was too late to make any changes.

Well, I'd say his brother and Daddy Bush appointed him.

And no, the final recuont showed that Gore had won, but Bush got in office by then and it was too late to make any changes.

Actually the final recount showed Bush as reported by the NYT, CNN, LAT, and other news outlets.

As for appointments, totally false. It is a known fact that the Florida Supreme Court was rewriting Election laws from the Bench which is in violation of the law within itself.

I will provide a link when I get the chance too.

What do you me "Re-elected" He was appointed not elected.

Actually, Bush was elected President of the United States under the system established by the American Founding Fathers. The fact of the matter is, this nation was NOT fashioned as a direct democracy, it was fashioned as a representative democracy.

2000 was not the first time in the history of the United States that there was a "minority" President (indeed, there have been 14 men elected to the office -- having won the electoral college -- who have not won a majority -- over 50% -- of the popular vote, though only three -- Hayes, Harrison, and Bush -- lacked the plurality of it).

Well, I'd say his brother and Daddy Bush appointed him.

And no, the final recuont showed that Gore had won, but Bush got in office by then and it was too late to make any changes.

If you shut up right now you will appear much smarter.

Gore won the popular vote.

Bush won the electoral vote, plain and simple.