NationStates Jolt Archive

Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

Yep...we need Europe just as much as they need us.

I really don't give a rats ass about anyone or anyplace really except my family, myself, and my town, but someplaces in Europe are nice to vacation in. What do I know though, I'm just a selfish jerk-wad.

Europe plays a large part in overseas marketing for Americans, not to mention that a good number of people had relations that reach into the many nations of Europe.

Personally, I sure do give a damn about European politics. They're just as important as our politics are to the rest of the world.

I pay close attention to Europe. I need to make sure nothing is occurring that may destablize my flow of Kinder Surprises and pineapple KitKats.

Which politics? Internal politics, not really. Whether or not France allows gay marriage or Spain has a death penalty means very little to me. Foreign relations, of course.

I'd say that I'm more interested in certain European countries. I generally follow the political news for England, France, Germany, and Denmark but turn a blind eye to most of what comes out of the Mediterranean and Scandinavian countries. I follow more closely the eastern European news because those countries are essentially in their infancy again in terms of being independent from the Soviet Union.

I care about European politics, and I also think that American should become more isolationist.

Nope, not really. The only time I care is when a EUropean country tries to block or thwart America's ability to defend herself, or to dictate policy to us. That makes them a threat to the United States in that situation.

Most Europeans don't care that much about European politics unless it's mentioned in their tabloid of choice.

I do follow European politics, though certainly not as closely as American politics. I actually know more about European politics than Canadian politics.

I'm dismayed by what seems like most European politicians taking cheap shots at America in order to gain votes. I'm sure European nations have plenty of their own internal problems, yet it seems like for them, the popular easy way out is to "blame the USA", chant mindless slogans, and go home feeling good about themselves.

Most Europeans don't care that much about European politics unless it's mentioned in their tabloid of choice.
Same with Americans, the tabloid just calls itself Fox News.

Nope, not really. The only time I care is when a EUropean country tries to block or thwart America's ability to defend herself, or to dictate policy to us. That makes them a threat to the United States in that situation.


and when the US does the same to the europeans, for example the trade war over importing bananas (of all things), does that make you a threat to us? pretty much as if we can't tell you things you damn sure can't tell us what to do.... :mad:

Do you think americans fear europe? i mean if europe united under 1 govenment and had 1 combined army would that bother you guys?

I'm dismayed by what seems like most European politicians taking cheap shots at America in order to gain votes. I'm sure European nations have plenty of their own internal problems, yet it seems like for them, the popular easy way out is to "blame the USA", chant mindless slogans, and go home feeling good about themselves.
That depresses me as well, it devalues the political system.

In the UK at least, there's a lot less "blame America" than there seems to be in France and Germnany, but what little I know of politics on the continent is through the British media. Blair is getting pilloried a lot over Iraq, but that's "Blair, you're an idiot" rather than "Blair, you did what Bush told you".

and when the US does the same to the europeans, for example the trade war over importing bananas (of all things), does that make you a threat to us? pretty much as if we can't tell you things you damn sure can't tell us what to do.... :mad:
Bananas? Who cares about bananas? Wow, that "war" was so important I haven't even heard of it! Buy your bananas from whomever you want, I don't care. Bananas...sheesh... :rolleyes:

Bananas? Who cares about bananas? Wow, that "war" was so important I haven't even heard of it! Buy your bananas from whomever you want, I don't care. Bananas...sheesh... :rolleyes:


it was merely an example of when the US tried to dictate European Trading policy to us. if you've not heard of it i can't help that, but i think it was 2002, and it caused loads of problems in the financial markets, not to say diplomatic relations. Put it like this, it nearly trashed trading relations that have been set up for decades...but if you chose to ignore that, well no suprise really...

it was merely an example of when the US tried to dictate European Trading policy to us. if you've not heard of it i can't help that, but i think it was 2002, and it caused loads of problems in the financial markets, not to say diplomatic relations. Put it like this, it nearly trashed trading relations that have been set up for decades...but if you chose to ignore that, well no suprise really...
Trade is not policy; trade is trade. You can set whatever tariffs you want on whatever goods you want. Or not. No one is required to sell anything to anyone else at a price they don't agree with. I recently met a Danish couple who said that the import taxes on an American car in Denmark are more than the price of the car itself! Do I care? F*** no!

So back to the original question: I really don't give a rat's ass about EUrope, except when they constitute a threat to the United States.

I particularly don't care about European Politics since it turned to America-Bashing. I for one will not visit certain countries in Europe because of this and that is a shame because of all the rich history that Europe has.

Frankly, I do follow Britain because they are a close ally of the U.S. so they are a tad more important than France, who was once an ally but no longer in my book, and Germany.

You missed the point entirely, it wasn't that we set tarriffs etc, it was who we were allowed to trade with. We chose someone, the US disagreed and told us to do something else otherwise, so please don't tell us that Europe threatens the US when the US does exactly the same back. Hence its BOTH policy and trade, not two separate things which you advocate.

You missed the point entirely, it wasn't that we set tarriffs etc, it was who we were allowed to trade with. We chose someone, the US disagreed and told us to do something else otherwise, so please don't tell us that Europe threatens the US when the US does exactly the same back. Hence its BOTH policy and trade, not two separate things which you advocate.

No wonder the US declared independence from Great Britain when they forced us to use British Ships as the middle man when we wanted to trade with say France and Spain then Britain went and banned the Colonists from Trading with the French and Spaniards.

never said we weren't as bad as each other :)

Trade is not policy; trade is trade. You can set whatever tariffs you want on whatever goods you want. Or not. No one is required to sell anything to anyone else at a price they don't agree with. I recently met a Danish couple who said that the import taxes on an American car in Denmark are more than the price of the car itself! Do I care? F*** no!

Wrong. There are treaties signed like the NAFTA (North-American Free Trade Agreement) that states that tariffs cannot be put wherever you feel like it. Also, when a country is member of an internationnal organisation like the WTO, it should respect that organisation's policies on tariffs.

Two things the US didn't do under Bush, might I add.
I'm sorry but that's a pet peeve of mine.

Only European countries i trust are England and Poland, France and Germany governments are corrupt bastards who accept blood money from Hussein and other psycho dictators to keep their mouths shut.

Wrong. There are treaties signed like the NAFTA (North-American Free Trade Agreement) that states that tariffs cannot be put wherever you feel like it. Also, when a country is member of an internationnal organisation like the WTO, it should respect that organisation's policies on tariffs.

Two things the US didn't do under Bush, might I add.
I'm sorry but that's a pet peeve of mine.
Then our government made a mistake in signing such treaties or joining such organizations. We should get out of them. Until the USA does so, I applaud any administration that ignores/violates such rules when they are against the best interests of the USA.

Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

Normally I do. But at the moment I am somewhat preoccupied in trying to get George Bush thrown out of office.

Then our government made a mistake in signing such treaties or joining such organizations. We should get out of them. Until the USA does so, I applaud any administration that ignores/violates such rules when they are against the best interests of the USA.Too bad it doesn't go both ways.

Normally I do. But at the moment I am somewhat preoccupied in trying to get George Bush thrown out of office.
Good luck with that. Looks like you're right on course. :D

Too bad it doesn't go both ways.
??? What is this "it" you refer to?

Then our government made a mistake in signing such treaties or joining such organizations. We should get out of them. Until the USA does so, I applaud any administration that ignores/violates such rules when they are against the best interests of the USA.

So your opinion is that a treaty is good as long as it doesn't hinder your side? That's probably why the US is so much hated in the world. Think about it: The US threathen a country when they don't respect their part of the deal, but the US can say "screw it" any time? Talk about hypocrisy.

I can understand if they don't sign a deal. But, if it's signed, you should respect it. Bearing in mind there's usually an escape clause.

??? What is this "it" you refer to?Do you support other countries ignoring internationnal treaties?

Do you think americans fear europe? i mean if europe united under 1 govenment and had 1 combined army would that bother you guys?

No, we have nothing to fear militarily from Europe. Just as Europe has no reason to fear(militarily) the US.

Of course I care about what happens in Europe. I wish Europe was less socialistic, but it really is none of my business what they do internally.

I do follow European politics, though certainly not as closely as American politics. I actually know more about European politics than Canadian politics.

I'm dismayed by what seems like most European politicians taking cheap shots at America in order to gain votes. I'm sure European nations have plenty of their own internal problems, yet it seems like for them, the popular easy way out is to "blame the USA", chant mindless slogans, and go home feeling good about themselves.


Similar, though not on the same scale, as what many middle east nation's leaders do. Distract their citizens by blaming the "Great Satan"

So your opinion is that a treaty is good as long as it doesn't hinder your side? That's probably why the US is so much hated in the world. Think about it: The US threathen a country when they don't respect their part of the deal, but the US can say "screw it" any time? Talk about hypocrisy.

I can understand if they don't sign a deal. But, if it's signed, you should respect it. Bearing in mind there's usually an escape clause.
Oh no, you mean people won't "like" us!?! Damn! Because I care so much whether they "like" us or not. They're never going to "like" us, so I don't give a rat's ass. They can't get over their envy.

USA should use those escape clauses, that's what I'm saying.

I particularly don't care about European Politics since it turned to America-Bashing. I for one will not visit certain countries in Europe because of this and that is a shame because of all the rich history that Europe has.

Frankly, I do follow Britain because they are a close ally of the U.S. so they are a tad more important than France, who was once an ally but no longer in my book, and Germany.

It turned to America bashing because you started running around like a bull in a china shop tearing up international treaties and invading places. I'm sorry if that upsets you - not half as much as it upset us, I can tell you.

There's plenty of Europe-bashing goes on in the US, too. Like the anti-semitism slur that gets dredged out every time the EU says something that Israel doesn't like.

There is currently a gap of understanding between the two continents, and that's probably not a good thing. Which is a pity because post 9/11 there was a great feeling of togetherness, the kind of political capital that the US could have done some good with instead of squandering. That's Bush's fault of course, not the US as a whole, but he seems to speak for a lot of Americans.

Similar, though not on the same scale, as what many middle east nation's leaders do. Distract their citizens by blaming the "Great Satan"I think it happens everywhere.
Blaming the communists, terrorism, or the french is the same thing.

Do you support other countries ignoring internationnal treaties?
Sure, it's fine by me. They DO. EVERY country acts in it's own interest. To think otherwise is naive.

USA should use those escape clauses, that's what I'm saying.

Ah but they don't use it. They slap an illegal (under the clauses of the treaty) tariff to protect their worker while simultaneously demand that the other country respect their end of the deal.

Now either you follow a treaty or you don't. If you don't, don't come screaming at the other side because they don't respect it.

I think it happens everywhere.
Blaming the communists, terrorism, or the french is the same thing.

It does. It is always easier to blame others than fix your own problems. I would take terrorists out of that group though(mostly), if they are still a boogeyman a decade after a major attack then it would be time to addthem back in.

Sure, it's fine by me. They DO. EVERY country acts in it's own interest. To think otherwise is naive.

There are always going to be issues where you need to talk to other countries. Trade, terrorism and the environment to name but three. A little diplomacy is all we ask. Trying to impose your will by force works sometimes, but not as often as you'd like to think. Look at Iraq.

Sure, it's fine by me. They DO. EVERY country acts in it's own interest. To think otherwise is naive.
The problem then is those countries who threaten other countries of war if they don't follow the treaties and then violate them.

It turned to America bashing because you started running around like a bull in a china shop tearing up international treaties and invading places. I'm sorry if that upsets you - not half as much as it upset us, I can tell you.
Well, that begs the question: What will you do about it?
You can adjust your own country's policies accordingly. But instead you want to dictate policy to the USA. We're not trying to dictate to EUrope when and where it can or cannot defend itself. Why do you presume to do that to us?

It does. It is always easier to blame others than fix your own problems. I would take terrorists out of that group though(mostly), if they are still a boogeyman a decade after a major attack then it would be time to addthem back in.
Of course the terrorists are the arabs. Like Iraq for instance. That's what I meant. They're labelled terrorists because it is a good market practice.

Well, that begs the question: What will you do about it?
You can adjust your own country's policies accordingly. But instead you want to dictate policy to the USA. We're not trying to dictate to EUrope when and where it can or cannot defend itself. Why do you presume to do that to us?

Defend yourself from what? Iraq? In what way was Iraq a threat to the US? Afghanistan is different - not issue there. I fully supported that war. But Iraq? Get real!

Ah but they don't use it. They slap an illegal (under the clauses of the treaty) tariff to protect their worker while simultaneously demand that the other country respect their end of the deal.

Now either you follow a treaty or you don't. If you don't, don't come screaming at the other side because they don't respect it.
Nope, we shouldn't do that. They should act in their best interest. If a treaty, or the USA ignoring that treaty, is against another country's best interest, I would hope their government would also ignore that treaty. Then the whole stupid treaty would fall apart and go away; it was obviously a mistake in the first place.

Nope, we shouldn't do that. They should act in their best interest. If a treaty, or the USA ignoring that treaty, is against another country's best interest, I would hope their government would also ignore that treaty. Then the whole stupid treaty would fall apart and go away; it was obviously a mistake in the first place.

I agree with your opinion, up to a point.
A treaty signed 20 years ago might have been a good idea then. It could have been a boon for many years. Saying that it is no longer useful is not the same thing as saying it was a mistake.

But now, I'm just nit-picking...

Defend yourself from what? Iraq? In what way was Iraq a threat to the US? Afghanistan is different - not issue there. I fully supported that war. But Iraq? Get real!
See, this is what I'm talking about. YOU want to decide what constitutes a threat to the USA. It's not YOUR call to make, it is ours. Who are YOU to tell us something isn't a threat to us?

just a thought about tarrifs. Tarriffs hurt both sides. End of story, by putting tarriffs up USA and Europe are reducing the benifits gained from specialisation and trade.

Economists have been telling governments this for years, but they dont listen.

Anyway who suffers most from trade wars? Poor places like Africa who depend on us buying their crops....

As for breaking a treaty and demanding the other end respect it.

Sounds like the precious geneva convention doesnt it? Whatever happened to that?

Nope, we shouldn't do that. They should act in their best interest. If a treaty, or the USA ignoring that treaty, is against another country's best interest, I would hope their government would also ignore that treaty. Then the whole stupid treaty would fall apart and go away; it was obviously a mistake in the first place.
The problem occurs when the USA ignores it while bullying those who do the same.

just a thought about tarrifs. Tarriffs hurt both sides. End of story, by putting tarriffs up USA and Europe are reducing the benifits gained from specialisation and trade.

Economists have been telling governments this for years, but they dont listen.
Amen! I totally agree. I don't like tariffs, and I think it is a mistake whenever the US government imposes them.

See, this is what I'm talking about. YOU want to decide what constitutes a threat to the USA. It's not YOUR call to make, it is ours. Who are YOU to tell us something isn't a threat to us?If we say it is not a threat, does it matter who we are?

See, this is what I'm talking about. YOU want to decide what constitutes a threat to the USA. It's not YOUR call to make, it is ours. Who are YOU to tell us something isn't a threat to us?

You didn't answer the question. Was Iraq a threat or not? Or just some country you decided to knock over because you could (although it turns out it wasn't so easy after all...).
And then you wonder why people fly planes into your buildings.

The problem occurs when the USA ignores it while bullying those who do the same.
What do you mean by "bullying"? If you mean by military force, to whom is the USA doing this, and over which treaty? If you mean political or economic pressure, the "bullied" country is free to make new alliances and trade agreements more in their best interest.

Do you think americans fear europe? i mean if europe united under 1 govenment and had 1 combined army would that bother you guys?


Not one bit.

You didn't answer the question. Was Iraq a threat or not? Or just some country you decided to knock over because you could (although it turns out it wasn't so easy after all...).
Our government decided it was a threat. That is their decision to make, and they made it. And yes, we will deal with the consequences.
And then you wonder why people fly planes into your buildings.
Are you saying the USA "got what it deserved" on 9/11?

Our government decided it was a threat. That is their decision to make, and they made it. And yes, we will deal with the consequences.

Are you saying the USA "got what it deserved" on 9/11?

Of course not. I am saying that you won't win a 'war on terror' without international support. Therefore it is in America's own self-interest to carry world opinion with it, and maybe listen now and again instead of lecturing. Arguing that 'might makes right' as you seem to be doing isn't exactly claiming the moral high ground from the terrorists, is it?

i dont care much about european politics because its not something i can do anything about. i try not to get all bothered about stuff that is out of my hands (god grant me the serenity, etc)

i certainly wouldnt judge a country by its politics or its leaders, thats just silly. i even went to france right around the time we invaded iraq. had a wonderful time, was treated very well without having to pretend i wasnt an american.

Of course not. I am saying that you won't win a 'war on terror' without international support. Therefore it is in America's own self-interest to carry world opinion with it, and maybe listen now and again instead of lecturing. Arguing that 'might makes right' as you seem to be doing isn't exactly claiming the moral high ground from the terrorists, is it?


Very valid points. We need international support. Some of these other countries that are not with the USA right now might have information that is sorely needed. But since the USA keeps telling them to do this and that they are not going to just hand over that information. I for one do not blame them.

i certainly wouldnt judge a country by its politics or its leaders, thats just silly. i even went to france right around the time we invaded iraq. had a wonderful time, was treated very well without having to pretend i wasnt an american.
I certainly hope you don't expect the same treatment here! ;)

Lol may I note to all ppl who don give a F. that we made it possible that there is an USA now. However the most americans think europe is nothing, i do have to state that without europe the international market would probable collapse. Europe is the Center of the world. Contains the biggest Haven of the world. We import asian products, american products, african products. we export products to the USA and everyother nation in the world. And may i please note that The European Union has more civilians than The United States Of America. 'But We need the USA just as much as the USA needs us.

I'm dismayed by what seems like most European politicians taking cheap shots at America in order to gain votes.
Most of them aren't really like that, just Gerhard Schroder, and it looks like is going to lose the next election anyway.

Owh and yeah another thing. Iraq didn't contain Chemical or Nuclair weapons... Think ppl, Nobody attacks a Country who has those things, i mean, they did know that the USA army would easily win against their army, if they had the power to stop the USA they would have.

Owh and yeah another thing. Iraq didn't contain Chemical or Nuclair weapons... Think ppl, Nobody attacks a Country who has those things, i mean, they did know that the USA army would easily win against their army, if they had the power to stop the USA they would have.


Sure they do. Think the Korean war and the Vietnam Conflict.

I for one will not visit certain countries in Europe because of this and that is a shame because of all the rich history that Europe has.

Oh come on, don't be so childish, trying to start your own private little embargoes on certain countries. It's not like they hate Americans and will kill you there. By visiting you're not significantly helping their governments.

lol m8 those 2 wars where totally different, it was not the idea behind the wars.. The idea behind iraq was that they had nuclair and chemical weapons, the other 2 because of communism (mainly)

Oh come on, don't be so childish, trying to start your own private little embargoes on certain countries. It's not like they hate Americans and will kill you there. By visiting you're not significantly helping their governments.


Very well said. I for one say.. visit all the countries you want. Remember that it isn't all the people that you are against just a select few in positions of power.

yes i do. think there's always something to learn from different countries.

lol m8 those 2 wars where totally different, it was not the idea behind the wars.. The idea behind iraq was that they had nuclair and chemical weapons, the other 2 because of communism (mainly)


I know. I just had to toss out that information for shyt and giggles. I do not totally agree with why the US went to war with Iraq but as long as I have relatives and friends there I'll support the troops and not the policies.

See, this is what I'm talking about. YOU want to decide what constitutes a threat to the USA. It's not YOUR call to make, it is ours. Who are YOU to tell us something isn't a threat to us?
Well, facts would show that Iraq was quite clearly not a threat. They had no ability to attack the US and they had never supported anyone who attacked the US. What do you think a threat is? Someone thinking an anti-American thought?

Sure.

We need Europe and it needs us.

I am interested in the goings on as I have friends and my current job has offices over there.

I also like going there and like the people.....

Of course not.
Uh huh. Yeah, most people equivocate when confronted with that question, even though are thinking "USA got what it deserved on 9/11" when they say things like: "And then you wonder why people fly planes into your buildings."
I am saying that you won't win a 'war on terror' without international support. Therefore it is in America's own self-interest to carry world opinion with it, and maybe listen now and again instead of lecturing. Arguing that 'might makes right' as you seem to be doing isn't exactly claiming the moral high ground from the terrorists, is it?
I'm not saying "might makes right", I'm saying EUrope has no right to tell the USA what constitutes a threat to us. We do listen, but we decided not to follow your advice. That's what really burns EUropean's butts. How DARE we not do what YOU say!

Well, facts would show that Iraq was quite clearly not a threat. They had no ability to attack the US and they had never supported anyone who attacked the US. What do you think a threat is? Someone thinking an anti-American thought?


I do not think that way but there sure are lot of Americans lately that are really starting to lean in that direction. At least in my area. The hatred that is spewed from some peoples mouth is disgusting.

Our government decided it was a threat. That is their
decision to make, and they made it. And yes, we will deal with the consequences.
Your governments decision cannot be questioned by anyone? I wonder if you would be so unquestioningly supportive if this was President Clinton we were talking about?

Are you saying the USA "got what it deserved" on 9/11?
No, we're saying that it got what is should have expected to get on 9/11. I'm not justifying those horrific atrocities.

I'll support the troops and not the policies.
You can't do that, it's a contradiction in terms. The troops are carrying out the policies. You either support both or neither.

Well, facts would show that Iraq was quite clearly not a threat. They had no ability to attack the US and they had never supported anyone who attacked the US. What do you think a threat is? Someone thinking an anti-American thought?
Someone with WMD programs and ties to terrorists, both of whom hate the USA and have vowed to attack us, is a threat.

Do you think americans fear europe? i mean if europe united under 1 govenment and had 1 combined army would that bother you guys?

I'm all in favor of it! The world is inherently more stable as it comes together instead of Balkanizes. Of course, with such a government, it would come down to the USA and (USE?) either being best buddies or rivals. Most likely the former. But a legit USE would need the UK to join.

You can't do that, it's a contradiction in terms. The troops are carrying out the policies. You either support both or neither.


Yes you can do that. You can keep sending them letters and care packages and wishing that that stay safe. The policies are created by the government. The troops have to follow those policies. Even if I don't agree with them 100% I will still support our troops and their well being.

Owke your army is there now.. support them, but that doesn't mean that your government fooled you into this war, i can tell you dozen of other country's with a dictorial regime. Your government sends your friends and relatives into danger for something that is not true and they knew it. Doesn't that make you madd?

Your governments decision cannot be questioned by anyone? I wonder if you would be so unquestioningly supportive if this was President Clinton we were talking about?
Yes, their decisions can be questioned, they just can't be DICTATED TO US! My support is not unquestioning, and it is arrogant of you to assume so. And yes, I would be just as supportive if Clinton was in office.
No, we're saying that it got what is should have expected to get on 9/11. I'm not justifying those horrific atrocities.
LOL! Same thing! You could at least be honest about your hatred. Give in to the dark side. :rolleyes:

Owke your army is there now.. support them, but that doesn't mean that your government fooled you into this war, i can tell you dozen of other country's with a dictorial regime. Your government sends your friends and relatives into danger for something that is not true and they knew it. Doesn't that make you madd?


To be 100% honest. At first when it all came out that Iraq wasn't a big threat for Nuclear weapons I was angry. Then I started thinking about it more and more. Sure I still resent being lied to by the government, but I still think having Saddam Hussein out of power is a good thing. So it is a damned if you do and damned if you don't sort of deal.

Yes you can do that. You can keep sending them letters and care packages and wishing that that stay safe. The policies are created by the government. The troops have to follow those policies. Even if I don't agree with them 100% I will still support our troops and their well being.
Nope. The troops ARE the policy. As Clausewitz said, "War is a continuation of politics by other means." The contradiction you hold to is just a salve for your conscience.

Anyone that was in school during the 1980's even if they were in first grade had to know that sooner or later the US was going to be attacked by terrorists. Remember all the plane hijackings during the 1980's. It was only a matter of time. It is also a matter of time before I think that the US gets hit by a dirty bomb. My father has been warning me about things like 9/11 since I was 10 years old.

Anyway thanks for the oppurtunity today to voice my opinions in this topic. You all have a great evening or afternoon.

Owke your army is there now.. support them, but that doesn't mean that your government fooled you into this war, i can tell you dozen of other country's with a dictorial regime. Your government sends your friends and relatives into danger for something that is not true and they knew it. Doesn't that make you madd?
No, it doesn't make me angry at all. I don't think my government lied to me. I come from a military background in a military city, so I have A LOT of friends and family deployed all around the world. Everyone I know is supportive of the USA's policies and is glad to be serving. And they are proud of what they are doing.

Nope. The troops ARE the policy. As Clausewitz said, "War is a continuation of politics by other means." The contradiction you hold to is just a salve for your conscience.


Yes. My brother doesn't agree with the policy 100%. I support him and all the rest of the troops.

Nope. The troops ARE the policy. As Clausewitz said, "War is a continuation of politics by other means." The contradiction you hold to is just a salve for your conscience.
The thing is that most people in Europe think that we are above this sentence today.
Actually Prussia-Germany was cursed for this militarism and anti-militarism (or even pacificism) was preached to it for decades. So, one shouldn´t wonder that it is rejecting today a policy of preventive strikes.

Nope, not really. The only time I care is when a EUropean country tries to block or thwart America's ability to defend herself, or to dictate policy to us. That makes them a threat to the United States in that situation.

In other words, we should probably invade France next.

For the most part, Europe is a cesspool. Of course, I have some respect for our allies, but overall, it's a continent of has-been nations. They have become happily mediocre. It's really quite sad.

From a consertive, American "Hawk" and a bush supporter...

Hell yes. when we move to protect ourselves were also moving to protect our friends. Trust me, if we didnt there would be No UN. I hate to say it but it is a fact, with the US there is no UN.

lol ppl.. so that is what you are.. a drained killing machine..? cauze if the war against iraq was a good thing.. please than just handle quick and conquer whole europe.. so this thread is over :D i mean.. lol sry m8 just gotto laugh

Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?
Personally, with the whole Iraq issue I think that Europe took the better road with that. I really wish we didn't have that burden to deal with right now. I'm scared I could be drafted to go fight this war if it comes to that point. Do Europeans look at Americans like the stereotypical "Texan"? I don't even think most Texans act like that and I don't act like that. That's not cool. You might be surprised if you just know the stereotype and don't actually know an American, we're not as cowboy-ish as you think.

Almost all governments tend to act in what they see as their own best interests and less frequently, the best interests of their people. European countries are no exception. A good example is France, where the government is currently anagonistic toward many US goals, if not outright hostile to the United States itself, even though France and the US have a long history of cooperation.

I favor temporary alliances between the US and European countries where it's obvious that our interests are congruent or at least tangential. A good example is currently Great Britian, where the government recognizes the commonality of most US and GB interests.

The question of whether citizens of the US are interested in European politics should always be in the affirmative, if for no other reason than that such policies will inevitably have an impact on our own.

gotto say.. although it would never happen.. if the USA would invade the netherlands, i will also blow my self up for the my cause.. or at least i will fight and still kill when i loose 3 limps for my nation.. But i wont never help my country in an attack when it is not justice.. like a war in iraq

Do Europeans look at Americans like the stereotypical "Texan"? I don't even think most Texans act like that and I don't act like that. That's not cool. You might be surprised if you just know the stereotype and don't actually know an American, we're not as cowboy-ish as you think.
When I look at the Nation states threads I wonder whether there is more anti-Americanism in Europe or anti-Europeanism in America?
And when I watch the Republican convention I saw in many speeches that European bashing seems to be a sport to win elections nowadays.
Well: there are short-sighted people on both sides who don´t see the value of the transatlantic partnership. 56% of world trade is between the US and the EU. The world economy wouldn´t work if the US and the EU wouldn´t cooperate.

kybernetia rulez :D your right m8

Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

The Europeans are doing a much better job that America, they haven't allowed a Hitler to come into power in 60 years. Look at America, we may elect a 'Hitler' again.

[Harmonia Mortus #1]Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

I voted NO.

I do appreciate Europe as a place, as a group of nations, and for it's people, but their politics are theirs, and I couldn't care less about it.

Just as I, as an individual, don't care about your internal beliefs (those that don't affect me or my "society") and how you run your family (unless you make it obvious that you're being "evil" with your family), I likewise couldn't care less about Europe's internal matters.

Why,.... should I..?

[Communist Maynards #94]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonia Mortus
Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

The Europeans are doing a much better job that America, they haven't allowed a Hitler to come into power in 60 years. Look at America, we may elect a 'Hitler' again.

When have we EVER allowed a Hitler to come to power..?

Has Europe..?

You would equate Bush with Hitler..!?

You are a moron, dear friend..! :)

Personally, as an American, I care about Europe, but I think we have to focus on getting this country out of the warpath first.

In other words, we should probably invade France next.
I'm not saying that, at all. See my post above regarding the fallacy of the "one-size-fits-all" policy that some are demanding the USA follow.
For the most part, Europe is a cesspool. Of course, I have some respect for our allies, but overall, it's a continent of has-been nations. They have become happily mediocre. It's really quite sad.
<in best British parlimentarian voice> "Here, here (or is it: Hear, hear)...harumph, harumph."

kybernetia rulez :D your right m8
In fact, I agree with everything Kybernetia said in that post.
Am I right also?

Do I give a rats ass about Europe?

Yes, I do. I am concerned about Europe repeating history by appeasing national leaders who gas (chemical) their own people and appease throat slashing rag heads. Spain was wrong to vote out their previous leader after the train bombing for example. I am concerned that Europe follows policies that make high taxation necessary on their own people. (I am glad I don't live in Europe!) I am concerned that social welfare payments go to able-bodied individuals in Europe that sap the economic vitality of Europe, and policies which discourage hard work, thrift, and free enterprise. Europe has the disease of Liberalism/Socialism and that does concern me.

Sincerely,
Dougie

dougie lol please look at your own country first.. gangwars, religious affairs everything is cracked down there ppl.. wake up

I care about Europe. I don't per se care as much for European Politics. Of course the same can be true for a whole lot of American Politics. Everyone has their own problems and their own people and they have to solve them their own ways. This applies as much to Italy and France as it does to Califorina and Florida. It applies to national, regional, and even urban governments.

Of course that doesn't mean I ignore it completely, but most of my information on European politics comes from only one source (NPR). I've heard some stories from people who have spent some time in Europe, but even then, some things work for some people and not for others.

dougie lol please look at your own country first.. gangwars, religious affairs everything is cracked down there ppl.. wake up
LOL! You are truly brainwashed. The USA is not like that at all.
You've never been there, have you?

lol, ive been there i've seen new york, i've seen you guys break bottles with whine because you guys suddenly h8 france.

Spain was wrong to vote out their previous leader after the train bombing for example. Dougie


Since 80% pf the Spanish opposed Aznar's Iraq policy and since they had to face daily the feeling of being a US collony where discissions were made in Washington about Spain rather then in Madrid, they voted him out.(and are happy with it).

Aznar was a bit crazy to at the end. Look what nonsense he is spreading now, calling and comparing for a crusade against the Islam and other BS not wurthy a leader. Even Bush does not go that far.

LOL! You are truly brainwashed. The USA is not like that at all.
You've never been there, have you?
I´ve been there. And my experience was very positive over all. I did an East-Coast tour. Buffalo was really the low point of that but otherwise it was great.
There are also many stereotypes about Europe though. Currently continental European countries have to make deep cuts into the welfare state and have to change the retirement system due to the ageing population.
Europe is not that socialists as many people think, especially due to the privatisation of many sectors formally owned by governments since the 1990s. The EU plays a big role by pusing for this privatisation: in the 90s in was the telecommunication sector, today it is the energy sector and the next thing is going to be the transportation sector probably.

lol, ive been there i've seen new york, i've seen you guys break bottles with whine because you guys suddenly h8 france.


A NYC friend of me said that it was mostly cheap wine (from anywhere) on wich they puted a expensive label like that of a Lafite or other Margeaux for the camera's, real wine lovers don't throw a 300€ bottle away.
BTW was nice to see the stupidity about the freedom fries from wich some republican morons tought that they were French. (= Belgian).

Dutch European Union,

I never said America is perfect. Sure we have gang-related problems (certainly not as bad as the word "gang-war" would imply). We have freedom of religion here which is a good thing. Still, I stand by my basic premise that I would much rather live in American than Europe, even with all our flaws and faults because at least we have a republican form of government where the people can make changes, just as the people of California did last year when they recalled (Socialist Budget busting) Governor Gray Davis.

Dougie

dougie lol please look at your own country first.. gangwars, religious affairs everything is cracked down there ppl.. wake up

Geez, which America are you talking about?

lol, ive been there i've seen new york, i've seen you guys break bottles with whine because you guys suddenly h8 france.

I live in New York, and I probably lived 15 years in New York City. Even Harlem is safe now.

A NYC friend of me said that it was mostly cheap wine (from anywhere) on wich they puted a expensive label like that of a Lafite or other Margeaux for the camera's, real wine lovers don't throw a 300€ bottle away.
BTW was nice to see the stupidity about the freedom fries from wich some republican morons tought that they were French. (= Belgian).

Its nothing new, in WWII we started calling saurkraut "freedom cabbage"

Do I care about European politics. Well... I don't follow them, but yes I do care about them. Just like I care about the politics of Massachusets, Texas, Lousiana, and all those other states I don't live in.

When the big-picture is looked at, change needs to happen on a global scale. When oppression is caused, borders should not be looked at.

That being said, I'm sorely sorry for anyone who says that we shouldn't care about the rest of the world, or that we should dissolve the U.N. as an 'obsolete' organization.

This view (which, I'm sad to say, is becoming increasingly common, at least to my perception) ruins the edict "If one is oppressed, we all are oppressed." In the end, this holds to be true.

Should we have gone into Iraq? Yes. Yes we should've. Should we have gone into Iraq with shoddy intelligence, little international support, no plan for the peace and (now that we examine them) some /really/ fishey connections with oil? No. No we shouldn't have.

I've seen people say that our country has gangwars, mass poverty, and religous oppression everywhere. I say thats false, living here. However, I'm a middle-class Californian student. Not a liberal blue-collar Wiccan in the middle of Utah. We're a large country, and theres a perception that comes with that. It doesn't happen on a large scale, but it does happen.

Why? Some would say its the American Tradition. To some degree, this is true. Its happened for a long time. But I think one of the big reasons is the man in office. President Bush, through his speech, manners, and over-all actions, has deemed it O.K. to be anti-intellectual, anti-international cooperation, ingnorant of politics, facts, and religon, and to have the general mindset of 'fuck the treaties and alliances we'll do whats best for our country'.

As such an influential player in world power, this doesn't do good for the rest of the world, and we have seen the results. If the United Kingdom did the same thing, I would imagine there be much the same results.

We are not a disjointed player. An Iraqi life is just as important as an English life, which is just as important as a French life, which (believe it or not) is just as important as an American life. Human rights are /not/ American rights.

So my point converges to: The world fucking matters. And not just because its a big trading partner. In the end, a man or woman oppressed is a man or woman oppressed. Nationality doesn't enter into it.

Look what nonsense he is spreading now, calling and comparing for a crusade against the Islam and other BS not wurthy a leader. Even Bush does not go that far.
Just FYI, Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy has said much the same thing.

lol, ive been there i've seen new york, i've seen you guys break bottles with whine because you guys suddenly h8 france.

I know that nearby on Long Island (which is a wine producer I might add) we made sure we emptied the bottle before smashing them. :p

Go to any resturant in New York, (the city constantly voted as having the best water) and you will be asked if you want ... Italian sparkling water. A few decades ago it was Perrier, but tastes do change over time.

Yes the French Fry thing was a joke. A better insult would have not been to rename the fried spud stick, just to add more "ketchup" on top. It was supposed to mimic the old (and equally dumb) renaming of German sounding foods with "victory" in World War I.

I can think of no greater insult to France than to make the Ketchup Queen the First Lady. However, I will yield to my base impluses and vote for Bush anyway.

Still, in honor of our strong relationship with England, I propose all Republicans cease using ketchup and only use malt vinegar on their chips, er I mean fries. ;)

Its nothing new, in WWII we started calling saurkraut "freedom cabbage"
I´m unaware that you were on war with Frane though.
Did you also rename Russian products during the Cold War.
Regarding crime: I was in New York in 1996. Well, probably the situation has improved since then but Harlem at that time was not a place to go to.
Anyway: I think regarding crime statistic and violent crime Europe is mainly still better of.
There are things America is better in but others it isn´t.

Just FYI, Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy has said much the same thing.

Well, with Berlusconi we fall in an entirely different mess.

I might be misinformed by the news I read but it seems that Berlusconi is corruption incarnate and the greatest proof that media convergence is a bad thing.

Its nothing new, in WWII we started calling saurkraut "freedom cabbage"

LOL :p

Just FYI, Prime Minister Berlusconi of Italy has said much the same thing.

OK he is as dumb. But Aznar is not a Mob person, Berluscone is.

OK he is as dumb. But Aznar is not a Mob person, Berluscone is.
Oh, I see...All Italians are Mafiosi. I should've known.

Well, with Berlusconi we fall in an entirely different mess.

I might be misinformed by the news I read but it seems that Berlusconi is corruption incarnate and the greatest proof that media convergence is a bad thing.
What is "media convergence"?

What is "media convergence"?
One or a few companies owning the majority of the media (newspaper, tv, radio).
It has the potential to influence public opinion on the issues (and often does) without having any air time dedicated to the other view. In Berlusconi's case, he owns the majority of Italy's media and uses it to smear his political opponents and to put him in a good light.

One or a few companies owning the majority of the media (newspaper, tv, radio).
It has the potential to influence public opinion on the issues (and often does) without having any air time dedicated to the other view. In Berlusconi's case, he owns the majority of Italy's media and uses it to smear his political opponents and to put him in a good light.
OK, that's pretty much what I thought it meant.
So, what does that have to do with the validity of his position vis-a-vis Islamic terrorism/fundamentalism?

If america didn't care about it you guys could be plotting some big takeover of the US, we'd never know. :mp5:

Personally, when I'm older and ge enough money to, I'd move to either, Canada(Yes I know it isn't in Europe), Ireland, Italy, or France.

gotto say.. although it would never happen.. if the USA would invade the netherlands, i will also blow my self up for the my cause.. or at least i will fight and still kill when i loose 3 limps for my nation.. But i wont never help my country in an attack when it is not justice.. like a war in iraq

You reveal your true colors, my friend, when you refer to the war in Iraq as being "unjust." Please make at least a small effort toward discovering what the Iraqi people have to say about being liberated from the tyrant Saddam Hussein. Did you never hear of the mass graves, of the woman buried alive in her car with her infant child in her arms? Did you never hear of the thousands of women, children and old people killed by Saddam's gas attacks? Did you never hear of the horrendous tortures inflicted on thosands of people by this madman?

If ever there was a "just war," the one to liberate Iraq is one of them.

OK, that's pretty much what I thought it meant.
So, what does that have to do with the validity of his position vis-a-vis Islamic terrorism/fundamentalism?
Nothing.

But the point you were making is (and correct me if I read wrong) that since Berlusconi stated the same thing as Aznar, that was somewhat valid. I responded by trying to point that listening to his opinion is not the wisest thing to do.

To put it simply, if Berlusconi agrees with me, it's time I take a good long look at my opinion. Much like if (as a liberal) O'reilly would agree with me, I must have missed something.

I do care about Europe - if we have to share this 1 world, we might as well get along.

If america didn't care about it you guys could be plotting some big takeover of the US, we'd never know. :mp5:

Personally, when I'm older and ge enough money to, I'd move to either, Canada(Yes I know it isn't in Europe), Ireland, Italy, or France.

If I'm still around after you've lived in one or more of those countries for a few years, please get back to me and let me know how you feel about it. ;)

I do care about Europe - if we have to share this 1 world, we might as well get along.
*applauds the most sensible comment anyone has made all day*

Nothing.

But the point you were making is (and correct me if I read wrong) that since Berlusconi stated the same thing as Aznar, that was somewhat valid. I responded by trying to point that listening to his opinion is not the wisest thing to do.
My point was more toward the fact that Aznar was not the only one saying those things, and that its not some far-out nutjob opinion. I'm sure there are many people who think the same, including me to a certain extent.
To put it simply, if Berlusconi agrees with me, it's time I take a good long look at my opinion. Much like if (as a liberal) O'reilly would agree with me, I must have missed something.
I think that's a little narrow-minded, don't you?

You reveal your true colors, my friend, when you refer to the war in Iraq as being "unjust." Please make at least a small effort toward discovering what the Iraqi people have to say about being liberated from the tyrant Saddam Hussein. Did you never hear of the mass graves, of the woman buried alive in her car with her infant child in her arms? Did you never hear of the thousands of women, children and old people killed by Saddam's gas attacks? Did you never hear of the horrendous tortures inflicted on thosands of people by this madman?

If ever there was a "just war," the one to liberate Iraq is one of them.

You relly think the iraqis are any of better now?
hell no! it will take decedes to reper the damage in iraq no mater what Bush will have os belive, what should have bean done was to give the iraqis them selfs some wepons and let them kill saddam them self then come in and help them rebuild their contry.
iraq is becoming a second vietnam exept nowone cears about the children in iraq or the young men giving their live for no reason.

You relly think the iraqis are any of better now?
hell no! it will take decedes to reper the damage in iraq no mater what Bush will have os belive, what should have bean done was to give the iraqis them selfs some wepons and let them kill saddam them self then come in and help them rebuild their contry.
iraq is becoming a second vietnam exept nowone cears about the children in iraq or the young men giving their live for no reason.
I hope and pray that English is not your first language. Either that or this post is a joke. Tell me it's a joke, please...

My point was more toward the fact that Aznar was not the only one saying those things, and that its not some far-out nutjob opinion. I'm sure there are many people who think the same, including me to a certain extent.
Well, then I didn't quite catch the meaning behind your original post. I'm sorry.


I think that's a little narrow-minded, don't you?
Not at all. I think that re-evaluating your opinion on a given subject is a must. When someone who is on the opposite side on the political axis agrees with you, I find it usefull to find out why. Is it a case of "for the good of all" or is it because I missed something.

It is my experience that if Bill O'reilly agrees with my point of view, It's either
A- He's disagreeing with the comment of some right-wing nutjob on something that went too far (The SwiftBoat vets for truth)
B- I missed something in my line of thinking.

Therefore I have learned that if O'reilly agrees with me, I should try to learn why. I'm talking about O'reilly because it works for me, but you can have the same exercise with Moore, Kerry or Bush. Basically someone who's the antithesis of you when it comes to the left/right axis.

I´m unaware that you were on war with Frane though.
Did you also rename Russian products during the Cold War.
Regarding crime: I was in New York in 1996. Well, probably the situation has improved since then but Harlem at that time was not a place to go to.
Anyway: I think regarding crime statistic and violent crime Europe is mainly still better of.
There are things America is better in but others it isn´t.

We arent at war with France, I was just pointing some of the silly things that go on from time to time.

Its considerably safer now. Even in 1996, there were some luxury building being put up on the south end of Harlem. There are still many unsafe places in New York City, but no worse than any other major city(much better actually).

If you want to find serious crime in the US, go to Washington DC or Detroit Michigan. They compete with one another for the title of "murder capitol" of the USA.

This poll is a bit disingenuous. Of course Europe matters.

I am curious when Europe will start leading the world and acting on the courage of their convictions.

<ducks for incoming flames>

No, I hate Europe. They all can just die for what I care with their socialism and such nonsense. And when the USA gets that way I'll move somewhere else.

This poll is a bit disingenuous. Of course Europe matters.

I am curious when Europe will start leading the world and acting on the courage of their convictions.

<ducks for incoming flames>

The Euros aren't very good at that (cf: Bosnia, just to start off.), however, they are very good at "taming" foreign lands by casting off "undesirables".

Remember, the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, and all the nations of South & Central America came from people their native countries considered... well... scum!

But you are right. I'd like to see Europe do something besides alternate hosting the World Cup with South America and complaining about the USA.

Im just curious to see what Americans think about Europe, and if we really do bother them that much about their politics, as they say.
So, Americans, whats YOUR opinion?

Um, I don't really have an opinion on Europe. I don't really care that much about Europe, and I really don't know much about the government over there.

I'm American...go figure

I think that the politics concerning the EU are more important than the politics of individual nations (save for the previous election in Spain, the election of the British PM, and France getting a new PM as well). Other than that, I really couldn't find a way to use the other information. Do I really know who the leader of Austria is? Nah, and I care as much.