NationStates Jolt Archive

No, I'm not talking about US support for islamic extremists during their conflict against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Nor am I talking about NATO support for the KLA.

US support for Contra terrorists:

"Paramilitary bands, aided by the CIA front organisation American Institute for Free Labor Development (AIFLD), began armed attacks in the north, singling out volunteers in the health and literacy programmes to murder. In January 1981 Ronald Reagan took office under a Republican platform which asserted that "it deplores the Marxist Sandinista take-over of Nicaragua" and he greatly expanded the CIA's guerrilla warfare and sabotage campaigns. In November 1981 Reagan authorised a covert plan for $19 million to help the Argentina dictatorship train a guerrilla force operating from camps in Honduras to attack Nicaragua.

Former members of Somoza's National Guards (who had fled to Honduras when the Somozan regime was toppled) and other war criminals formed the basis of this force, which became known as the contras. By the autumn of 1983, 12,000 to 16,000 contra troops of the so-called FDN (Nicaraguan Democratic Force) were operating along the Honduran border. Smaller contra forces operated from bases in Costa Rica. They staged hit and run raids against rural towns and co-operatives in Nicaragua, before returning to their bases across the border. The CIA had no illusions about the contras' ability to overthrow the FSLN; in two years of operations, they failed to take and hold even a small village. The aim of the contras was to use terrorist tactics to stop Nicaraguan development projects in all areas: economic, education, health services and political organisations.

The contras blew up bridges, civilian power plants and schools, they burned fields of crops and attacked hospitals. Their tactics included rape, kidnappings of peasants and civilians, ambushes and massacres against small rural communities, farms, co-operatives, schools and health clinics. Contra raids caused extensive damage to crop fields, grain silos, irrigation projects, farm houses and machinery. Numerous state farms and co-operatives were incapacitated; other farms still intact were abandoned because of the danger.

Witness For Peace, an American Protestant watchdog body, collected a list of contra atrocities in one year, which included murder, the rape of two girls in their homes, torture of men, maiming of children, cutting off arms, cutting out tongues, gouging out eyes, castration, bayoneting pregnant women in the stomach, amputating the genitals of people of both sexes, gouging out eyes, scraping the skin off the face, pouring acid on the face, breaking the toes and fingers of an 18 year old boy, and summary executions. These were the people Ronald Reagan called "freedom fighters" and "the moral equal of our founding fathers."

One survivor of a contra raid in Jinotega province, which borders Honduras, reported: "Rosa had her breasts cut off. Then they cut into her chest and took out her heart. The men had their arms broken, their testicles cut off and their eyes poked out. They were killed by slitting their throats and pulling the tongue out through the slit." The human rights organisation Americas watch, concluded that "the contras systematically engage in violent abuses…. so prevalent that these may be said to be their principle means of waging war."

There was also a CIA plan to split Nicaragua in half, east and west, with the contras taking the east side and the Sandinistas left with the capital Managua and the west side. Horrified at this picture of outright war, the Senate Committee introduced the Boland Amendment, prohibiting the use of tactics "for the purpose of overthrowing the Government of Nicaragua." However, in defiance of this, the CIA's contra operations continued. By 1983 the Agency's support for the contras had risen to $24 million."

http://www.wakeupmag.co.uk/articles/cia5.htm

Now tell me, was that justified?

Now tell me, was that justified?

Because the Sandanistas were worse than the Samosa regime they deposed. They promised the people free elections and many wonderful things. Then when they took over they aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and executed anyone who opposed them. The promised elections never happened either.

The "contras" were those who did not agree with the Sandanistas and were driven off their land. The US supplied them with what they needed to effect their revolution. Once the Sandanistas were forced to allow elections as part of the peace agreement they were thrown out by the people.

Your anti-US stance on this one is just way off, but of course you will never admit that because all you see is evil where there is none and benevolence in those who are tyrannical.

Because the Sandanistas were worse than the Samosa regime they deposed. They promised the people free elections and many wonderful things. Then when they took over they aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and executed anyone who opposed them. The promised elections never happened either.

The "contras" were those who did not agree with the Sandanistas and were driven off their land. The US supplied them with what they needed to effect their revolution. Once the Sandanistas were forced to allow elections as part of the peace agreement they were thrown out by the people.

Your anti-US stance on this one is just way off, but of course you will never admit that because all you see is evil where there is none and benevolence in those who are tyrannical.
So you are saying its okay to negociate with terrorist?

So you are saying its okay to negociate with terrorist?
only if the republicans do it

So you are saying its okay to negociate with terrorist?

No. The "contras" are only looked at as terrorists by those who disagree with what they stood for and wanted. Did they do bad things? Yes they did. They were fighting a war against a force backed by the Soviets.

The Sandanistas are still there....they just barely have any seats in the government. Daniel Ortega has run for President since and lost very badly. That this is so is very indicative that the Sandinistas were not wanted by the people, who when given a choice chose otherwise.

Oh come on Biff--the US support of the contras in Nicaragua was illegal, and should have cost not only Reagan his job, but should have precluded George H. W. Bush from ever serving as President as well. The contras were a bunch of murdering thugs who were no different from the people they were trying to oust--except that they weren't communist. Whoop-te-doo. The communists in power weren't really communist either.

Oh come on Biff--the US support of the contras in Nicaragua was illegal, and should have cost not only Reagan his job, but should have precluded George H. W. Bush from ever serving as President as well. The contras were a bunch of murdering thugs who were no different from the people they were trying to oust--except that they weren't communist. Whoop-te-doo. The communists in power weren't really communist either.

By bringing in Soviet and Cuban "advisors" the Sandinistas alienated their own population. Land redistribution displaced many farmers who joined the contras. Remember, the Monrow Doctrine is still in place and although that is a stretch, the Soviets were anxious to get a toehold in Central America. Castro was heavily involved. There was nothing "illegal" about the contras. That they were helped in secret may have been dubious, but the Democrats who controlled Congress would never have agreed to help and the Soviets would have spread their influence to other countries in the region. They were already fomenting unrest in other countries there.

Since the contras took over...what happened? Free elections and rule of law. The OPPOSITE of the Sandinistas.

Oh come on Biff--the US support of the contras in Nicaragua was illegal, and should have cost not only Reagan his job, but should have precluded George H. W. Bush from ever serving as President as well. The contras were a bunch of murdering thugs who were no different from the people they were trying to oust--except that they weren't communist. Whoop-te-doo. The communists in power weren't really communist either.
dont try to reason with the unreasonable. biff is trying to rationalise how if republicans support terrorists, they arnt terrorists and are ok, but if democrats dont agree with the destruction of the rest of the world, they are traitors to the US crown

By bringing in Soviet and Cuban "advisors" the Sandinistas alienated their own population. Land redistribution displaced many farmers who joined the contras. Remember, the Monrow Doctrine is still in place and although that is a stretch, the Soviets were anxious to get a toehold in Central America. Castro was heavily involved. There was nothing "illegal" about the contras. That they were helped in secret may have been dubious, but the Democrats who controlled Congress would never have agreed to help and the Soviets would have spread their influence to other countries in the region. They were already fomenting unrest in other countries there.

Since the contras took over...what happened? Free elections and rule of law. The OPPOSITE of the Sandinistas.
Look at those two statements I bolded and notice the contradiction. Not only did Congress not agree to help, they expressly forbade that help, which is why a number of people went to jail over the Iran-Contra affair (most of them either being pardoned or later having their sentences overturned due to immunity issues).

Look at those two statements I bolded and notice the contradiction. Not only did Congress not agree to help, they expressly forbade that help, which is why a number of people went to jail over the Iran-Contra affair (most of them either being pardoned or later having their sentences overturned due to immunity issues).

Ok, Congress forbade any help. Congress was wrong on that one as history has shown. Helping the contras was the best thing to do. The Sandinistas overthrew one government by using terror tactics and then all but declared war on the population to retain power. The population did not like it and wanted to fight back.

You guys seem to think the Sandinistas were some great group of guys promising things like free healthcare and lower taxes for the middle class or something. They were very brutal and they executed anyone who opposed them. That they themselves were not executed when they were thrown out of power shows that the contra leaders are not the brutal thugs you guys seem to think they are.

Ok, Congress forbade any help. Congress was wrong on that one as history has shown. Helping the contras was the best thing to do. The Sandinistas overthrew one government by using terror tactics and then all but declared war on the population to retain power. The population did not like it and wanted to fight back.

You guys seem to think the Sandinistas were some great group of guys promising things like free healthcare and lower taxes for the middle class or something. They were very brutal and they executed anyone who opposed them. That they themselves were not executed when they were thrown out of power shows that the contra leaders are not the brutal thugs you guys seem to think they are.
Well, their actions as leaders of death squads during the fighting would certainly lead to the conclusion that they were brutal thugs. Silly me. My point has never been that the Sandinistas were innocent people and that the contras were bastards--they were pretty equally horrible to each other and to the people caught in the crossfire.

What's the saying--one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Just because you like one's cause doesn't make him necessarily more moral in his actions.

Well, their actions as leaders of death squads during the fighting would certainly lead to the conclusion that they were brutal thugs. Silly me. My point has never been that the Sandinistas were innocent people and that the contras were bastards--they were pretty equally horrible to each other and to the people caught in the crossfire.

What's the saying--one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Just because you like one's cause doesn't make him necessarily more moral in his actions.

Well...lets take a look at the two groups....

Sandinistas take over and attempt to install a Communist form of government. Invite Soviet and Cuban "advisors" in and beging land redistribution. Execute those who protest and demand promised elections.

Contras overthrow Sandinistas and throw Cuban and Soviet "advisors" out. Hold free elections and create democratic form of government. Now that was 20 years ago.....what has happened since?

Because the Sandanistas were worse than the Samosa regime they deposed. That is complete and utter garbage. The Somoza regime and its Contra offshoots ruined Nicaragua. The Sandinista movement was created in response to Somoza's destruction of the country. They weren't angels but at least provided some social relief to the poor majority.

They promised the people free elections and many wonderful things. Then when they took over they aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and executed anyone who opposed them. The promised elections never happened either. The Sandinistas turned to the USSR after the Reagan administration began supporting a campaign of terrorism against their government. They were left with little choice. Even then, the Soviets weren't prepared to become too deeply involved in Nicaragua and Soviet support for the Sandinistas remained limited.

The "contras" were those who did not agree with the Sandanistas and were driven off their land. The US supplied them with what they needed to effect their revolution. Once the Sandanistas were forced to allow. :rolleyes:

They were CIA-backed terrorists and former members of Somoza's regime.

That is complete and utter garbage. The Somoza regime and its Contra offshoots ruined Nicaragua. The Sandinista movement was created in response to Somoza's destruction of the country. They weren't angels but at least provided some social relief to the poor majority. .

And yet managed to screw other memebers of the poor who did not agree with them, who wanted no part of the Sandanistas or who just wanted to be left alone. Like the Misquito Indians and their forced relocation from the coast which lead 50,000 of them to flee into Hondorous and another 40,000 to join the Contras...tell me, are they terrorists? You fail to realize that while the Contras were started by former National Guard elements of Somoza's military a lot of people who joined it during the civil war were infact just regular people alienated by the Sandanista government, blacklisted, imprisoned and released after being beaten, had their property confiscated, so on and so forth.

The Sandinistas turned to the USSR after the Reagan administration began supporting a campaign of terrorism against their government. They were left with little choice. Even then, the Soviets weren't prepared to become too deeply involved in Nicaragua and Soviet support for the Sandinistas remained limited.. The Sandinistas didnt turn to the USSR after they came to power..they were always in the pocket of the USSR. The Cubans were the ones who helped them get into power in the first place. The Cubans pretty much were the ones who were better involved than the USSR simply because of distance issues.

They were CIA-backed terrorists and former members of Somoza's regime. A civil war isnt exactly black and white. Both sides werent exactly up for the nobel peace prize. Yes there were times when the Contras did something that makes me ashamed the US supported them, but you cant impose your values on everyone in the world. Its nice to look through rosecolored glasses at a situation and berate one side for ignoring basic human rights while neglecting the otherside for what it did in that same amount of time. Heck even the Sandanistas admitted to making some as they put it "mistakes". However one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter...

As for you folks who talk about it being okay for a Republican to negotiate with terrorists and not a Democrat...where the heck are you getting that nonsense from? There have only been 2 democratic presidents in the past 30 years. Carter and Clinton. Carter had to deal with the Iran Embassy taking and the botched rescue effort that yeilded. Certainly not negotiations. And even when he did negotiate nothing happened.

Clinton, if he negotiated with terrorists, then he should have stuck with domestic policy and not foreign policy. The '93 World Trade Center Bombing, the Embassy Bombings, the Cole, etc etc. just highlight his inability to negotiate with terrorists.

As for Republicans, they generally dont negotiate with terrorists no matter what unless it can be used to stiff the Soviet Union in one way or another. Then again Truman did the same thing and he was a democratic, and so did Kennedy(he was the one to first ship advisors to Vietnam, and Bay of Pigs did occur under his watch).

Lastly, I'm disgusted that you'd make mention of the KLA being a terrorist organization. I had a friend who joined a US volunteer regiment of folks from that region because his cousin was killed by the Serbs. But whatever....you posted an article, and instead of putting something meaningful after it you trolled for a response and asked someone to challenge it. What do you think would happen? I've had to argue many a time that what the US did was less worse than what the Soviets did throughout the Cold War. Red Army Faction, and the Red Brigade were just as bad if not worse than the Contras. The Shining Path in Peru makes most Contra actions look saintly. I wont even go into the fact that East Germany gave logistics support for the attack on the Munich games to the terrorists(this is straight from a documentary called 100 Years of Terror). It doesnt make what the US did any less bad, but it surely makes it justified.

The Contras are all well and bad, but don't forget about the relentless terrorist campaign against Cuba that has been going on for 40 years. The US shelters and funds terrorists based in Miami.

I'll write more about this later.

Oh, and Biff, we know that the Sandinistas were effectively state terrorists. The fact that they were bad and the Contras were fighting against them (with equally bad means) by no means makes the Contras "not terrorists".

The Contras are all well and bad, but don't forget about the relentless terrorist campaign against Cuba that has been going on for 40 years. The US shelters and funds terrorists based in Miami.

I'll write more about this later.

Oh, and Biff, we know that the Sandinistas were effectively state terrorists. The fact that they were bad and the Contras were fighting against them (with equally bad means) by no means makes the Contras "not terrorists".

The US shelters and funds terrorists in Miami? Oh please show me where.

Oh, and Biff, we know that the Sandinistas were effectively state terrorists. The fact that they were bad and the Contras were fighting against them (with equally bad means) by no means makes the Contras "not terrorists".

I think saying this was two sides on a multi-nation South American civil war might be more acurate. The US backed one, the Soviets backed the other...wasn't the Cold War so much fun?

I think saying this was two sides on a multi-nation South American civil war might be more acurate. The US backed one, the Soviets backed the other...wasn't the Cold War so much fun?

It sure was!! I had a GREAT time booting around Europe and other places playing games....;)

It sure was!! I had a GREAT time booting around Europe and other places playing games....;)

For the last fucking time, stop that god-damn winking.

For the last fucking time, stop that god-damn winking.

Oh come on.....maybe you like this one better? :fluffle: ;)

Your strange behaviour is being compiled into a dossier which will outline your threat to world peace with your intent to produce weapons of mass annoyance. Bitch.

[BastardSword #3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff Pileon
Because the Sandanistas were worse than the Samosa regime they deposed. They promised the people free elections and many wonderful things. Then when they took over they aligned themselves with the Soviet Union and executed anyone who opposed them. The promised elections never happened either.

The "contras" were those who did not agree with the Sandanistas and were driven off their land. The US supplied them with what they needed to effect their revolution. Once the Sandanistas were forced to allow elections as part of the peace agreement they were thrown out by the people.

Your anti-US stance on this one is just way off, but of course you will never admit that because all you see is evil where there is none and benevolence in those who are tyrannical.

So you are saying its okay to negociate with terrorist?

Never negotiate with terrorists. Use them if you can, of course, but never negotiate with them.

As with all things "international", dealing with people is contingent on the interests of the parties involved.

If they are against your interests, kill them.

If they support your interests, use them.

If you support those that fundamentally offend your own principles, then you have a problem.

If you have no principles, you will defend the Taliban and Saddam and their like against the forces of good.

Where do you stand..?

I don't know if the government of the USA ever supported the IRA, but plenty of American people did. I also have a vague memory of Gerry Adams at the White House, so perhaps the administration did?

I am in general favour of an Irish Republic (except that they take so much dictation from Brussels these days) but the IRA were just terrorists. Sinn Fein have wised up somewhat now, but to support the IRA when they were bombing innocent people is surely wrong? They were not freedom fighters, they were terrorists. The loyalists were just as bad of course - terrorists too. But any pro-Irish Republic American I've ever heard of (and there's been quite a few) saw the Irish Republican Army as much better. They weren't. They were all hateful scum.

the IRA were just terrorists. Sinn Fein have wised up somewhat now, but to support the IRA when they were bombing innocent people is surely wrong? They were not freedom fighters, they were terrorists. The loyalists were just as bad of course - terrorists too. But any pro-Irish Republic American I've ever heard of (and there's been quite a few) saw the Irish Republican Army as much better. They weren't. They were all hateful scum.
You're totally right. I don't think that the US Government ever supported the IRA. The IRA were fighting against the British, who were allies, and also the US had higher priorities in the War for U.S. Corporations (sorry, "war against communism"). The IRA were only put on the US list of terrorist organisations in 1997, after they had been committing cowardly terrorist acts for thirty years. Before that, many private American citizens supported the IRA financially.

Because the Sandanistas were worse than the Samosa regime they deposed. They promised the people free elections and many wonderful things. ... The promised elections never happened either.


Glaring factual error in your argument: elections were held in Nicaragua in 1984 and 1990. The 1984 election, was described by international observers as a fair and balanced election, and the Sandinistas were returned to power for another term as a result of it. In the 1990 elections they lost to the UNO dominated coalition (which interestingly enough contained several dyed in the wool communists).

Never negotiate with terrorists. Use them if you can, of course, but never negotiate with them.

Ah, so we should all just go back to shooting each other in Northern Ireland now, instead of having had ten years of an uneasy peace brought about by the negotiations held with the paramilitaries?

The US shelters and funds terrorists in Miami? Oh please show me where.
Check it out:
Hegemony or Survival[/i] p.80-86]In May 1959 the CIA started to arm anti-Castro guerrillas in Cuba. "In the winter of 1959 there was an increase in CIA-supervised bombings and raids carried out by exiled Cubans" based in the US. *13*
.....
In July 1960, Cuba called the UN for help, providing the Security Council with records of 20 bombings, including names of pilots, plane registration numbers, unexploded bombs and other specific details, alleging considerable damage and casualties and calling for resolution of the conflict diplomatically. The US Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge assured that "the US has no aggressive purpose against Cuba." Plans to topple the Castro regime, including the Bay of Pigs invasion, were well advanced.*14*
.........
In 1961, John F Kennedy ordered an intensification of the terrorist campaign: "He asked his brother, Attorney-General Robert Kennedy, to lead the top-level interagency group that oversaw Operation Mongoose, a program of paramilitary operations, economic warfare, and sabotage he launched in late 1961 to visit 'the terrors of the earth' on Castro, to topple him." *20*
............
On 23 August 1962, JFK issued National Security Memorandum No. 181, "a directive to engineer internal revolt that would be followed by US military intervention." *25*

Also in August, terrorist attacks intensified, including speedboat strafing attacks on a Cuban seaside hotel "where Soviet military technicians were known to congregate, killing a score of Russians and Cubans."; sugar shipments, other atrocities and sabotage carried out mostly by Cuban exile groups permitted to operate freely in Florida. *26*

On November 8 1962, a Cuban terrorist team dispatched from the United States blew up a Cuban industrial facility after the Mongoose operations had been officially suspended. Fidel Castro alleged that 400 workers had been killed in this operation.
...........
Terrorist activities continued under Nixon, peaking in the mid-1970s, with attacks on fishing boats, embassies, and Cuban offices overseas, and the bombing of a Cubana airliner. killing all 73 passengers [more about this in the next quote]. These and subsequent terrorist operations were carried out from US territory, though by then they were regarded as criminal acts by the FBI.
.........
On the 30th anniversary of the missile crisis (October 1992) Cuba protested a machine-gun attack against a Spanish-Cuban tourist hotel; responsibility was claimed by a group in Miami. Bombings in Cuba in 1997, in which an Italian tourist was killed, were traced back to Miami. The perpetrators were Salvadoran criminals operating under the direction of Luis Posada Carriles and financed in Miami. One of the most notorious international terrorists, Posada had escaped from Venezualan prison, where he had been held for the Cubana airliner bombing, with the aid of Miami businessman Jorge Mas Canosa, who was head of the Cuban-American National Foundation. Posada went from Venezuela to El Salvador, where he worked at the Ilopango air base to help organise US terrorist attacks against Nicaragua under Oliver North's direction.

Posada has described in detail his terrorist activities and the funding from CANF in Miami. He was a Bay of Pigs veteran, and his subsequent operations in the 1960s were directed by the CIA.

notes
13. Morris Morley, Imperial State and Revolution (Cambridge, 1987).
Daniele Ganser, Reckless Gamlbe (University Press of the South, 2000).
Stephen Streeter, Managing the Countrerrevolution (Ohio, 2000).
14. "A Program of covert action against the Castro Regime", 16 March 1960.
20. Piero Glaijeses, Conflicting Missions (North Carolina, 2002).
Arthur Schlesinger, Robert Kennedy and His Times (Balantine, 1978), pp.477-480.
25. Paterson in Kennedy's Quest for Victory.
26. Garthoff, Reflections, pp. 16ff.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/cuba.htm
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/frusX/376_390.html

International Terrorism:
Image and Reality[/i]]
International terrorism is, of course, not an invention of the 1980s. In the previous two decades, its major victims were Cuba and Lebanon.

Anti-Cuban terrorism was directed by a secret Special Group established in November 1961 under the code name “Mongoose,” involving 400 Americans, 2,000 Cubans, a private navy of fast boats, and a $50 million annual budget, run in part by a Miami CIA station functioning in violation of the Neutrality Act and, presumably, the law banning CIA operations in the United States.20 These operations included bombing of hotels and industrial installations, sinking of fishing boats, poisoning of crops and livestock, contamination of sugar exports, etc. Not all of these actions were specifically authorized by the CIA, but no such considerations absolve official enemies.

Several of these terrorist operations took place at the time of the Cuban missile crisis of October-November 1962. In the weeks before, Raymond Garthoff reports, a Cuban terrorist group operating from Florida with US government authorization carried out “a daring speedboat strafing attack on a Cuban seaside hotel near Havana where Soviet military technicians were known to congregate, killing a score of Russians and Cubans;” and shortly after, attacked British and Cuban cargo ships and again raided Cuba, among other actions that were stepped up in early October. At one of the tensest moments of the missile crisis, on November 8, a terrorist team dispatched from the United States blew up a Cuban industrial facility after the Mongoose operations had been officially suspended. Fidel Castro alleged that 400 workers had been killed in this operation, guided by “photographs taken by spying planes.” This terrorist act, which might have set off a global nuclear war, evoked little comment when it was revealed. Attempts to assassinate Castro and other terror continued immediately after the crisis terminated, and were escalated by Nixon in 1969.21

Such operations continued after the Nixon years. In 1976, for example, two Cuban fishing vessels were attacked in April by boats from Miami, the main center of anti-Cuban terrorism worldwide. A few weeks later, the Cuban embassy in Portugal was bombed with two killed. In July, the Cuban mission to the UN in New York was bombed and there were bombings aimed at Cuban targets in the Caribbean and Colombia, along with the attempted bombing of a pro-Cuban meeting at the Academy of Music in New York. In August, two officials of the Cuban embassy in Argentina were kidnapped and Cubana airlines offices in Panama were bombed. The Cuban embassy in Venezuela was fired upon in October and the embassy in Madrid was bombed in November. In October, CIA-trained Cuban exiles bombed a Cubana civilian airliner, killing all 73 aboard, including Cuba’s gold-medal-winning international fencing team. One of the agents of this terrorist operation, Bay of Pigs veteran Luis Posada Carriles, was sprung from the Venezuelan jail where he was held for the bombing; he mysteriously escaped and found his way to El Salvador, where he was put to work at the Ilopango military airbase to help organize the US terrorist operations in Nicaragua. The CIA attributed 89 terrorist operations in the US and the Caribbean area for 1969-79 to Cuban exile groups, and the major one, OMEGA 7, was identified by the FBI as the most dangerous terrorist group operating in the US during much of the 1970s.22

Cuba figures heavily in scholarly work on international terrorism. Walter Laqueur’s standard work (see note 1) contains many innuendos about Cuban sponsorship of terrorism, though little evidence. There is not a word, however, on the terrorist operations against Cuba. He writes that in “recent decades... the more oppressive regimes are not only free from terror, they have helped to launch it against more permissive societies.” The intended meaning is that the United States, a “permissive society,” is one of the victims of international terrorism, while Cuba, an “oppressive regime,” is one of the agents. To establish the conclusion it is necessary to suppress the fact that the US has undeniably launched major terrorist attacks against Cuba and is relatively free from terror itself; and if there is a case to be made against Cuba, Laqueur has signally failed to present it.

from http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/WesternStateTerrorism.html


You live in Miami, don't you Biff? Go bust 'em!

I know the Contras were bad, but I'm proud the US supported them. The US had bad experiences with the USSR and Cuban forces in Latin America. Therefore, we needed to fight fire with fire. The US needed to show the USSR that communism in Latin America wasn't tolerated like it was before. I know it was dirty, but I think that communism was a far worse threat, not just to our national security, but to individuals around the world. Today, Nicaragua isn't nearly as bad as it was before, thanks in part to the Sadanistas leaving. To my understanding, they now have only a marginal presence in Nicaragua's legislature.

I know the Contras were bad, but I'm proud the US supported them. The US had bad experiences with the USSR and Cuban forces in Latin America. Therefore, we needed to fight fire with fire. The US needed to show the USSR that communism in Latin America wasn't tolerated like it was before. I know it was dirty, but I think that communism was a far worse threat, not just to our national security, but to individuals around the world. Today, Nicaragua isn't nearly as bad as it was before, thanks in part to the Sadanistas leaving. To my understanding, they now have only a marginal presence in Nicaragua's legislature.

The Sandinistas were not "communists". After overthrowing the truly awful Somoza dictatorship in 1979, the Sandinistas formed part of a ruling post-civil-war junta. In 1984, after elections judged free and fair by a large body of international observers, they formed the first democratically elected government of Nicaragua. In 1990, they lost an election, and peacefully withdrew from power -- like a democratic party should. In 1996, they contested another set of elections, failed to gain power, and accepted the decision of the electorate -- like a democratic party should. Daniel Ortega Saavedra, one of the principal founders of the Sandinistas, got 43% of the vote in the Presidential race: hardly "marginal". In the elections in 2001 the Sandinistas again polled well but failed to win a majority.

The Sandinistas are not lily-white by any means: they committed atrocities, and they violated human rights. However, they were a huge improvement on the tin-pot fascism of the US-backed Somoza regime, and they were instrumental in ushering in democracy to Nicaragua -- in spite of the Contras and in spite of the US embargoes and dumping of mines in Nicaraguan harbours.

The American opposition to the Sandinistas had less to do with the discredited "domino theory" or the necessities of the Cold War than it did with American Big Business's preference for dealing with corrupt Central American dictatorships. It's so much more profitable to deal with an easily-bribeable regime who doesn't need the support of its people. Want cheap labour? For a modest sum, we'll shoot anyone who looks like starting a Trades Union and enforce starvation wages! Want to strip-mine somewhere, but find it's inhabited by peasants? No problem! Our Disappearance fees are some of the most competitive in the region! The sad and sordid truth is that more blood has probably been shed for the benefit of the bottom lines of United Fruit and the Metal Box Company in Central and South America than for any political ideology. American support for the Contras is a blemish -- one among many -- on the face of the US claim to support democracy. It was also a violation of International and American law, and showed a contempt for the democratic institutions of your nation.

There's a good, balanced article on the Sandinistas on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista).

The Sandinistas were not "communists". After overthrowing the truly awful Somoza dictatorship in 1979, the Sandinistas formed part of a ruling post-civil-war junta. In 1984, after elections judged free and fair by a large body of international observers, they formed the first democratically elected government of Nicaragua. In 1990, they lost an election, and peacefully withdrew from power -- like a democratic party should. In 1996, they contested another set of elections, failed to gain power, and accepted the decision of the electorate -- like a democratic party should. Daniel Ortega Saavedra, one of the principal founders of the Sandinistas, got 43% of the vote in the Presidential race: hardly "marginal". In the elections in 2001 the Sandinistas again polled well but failed to win a majority.

The Sandinistas are not lily-white by any means: they committed atrocities, and they violated human rights. However, they were a huge improvement on the tin-pot fascism of the US-backed Somoza regime, and they were instrumental in ushering in democracy to Nicaragua -- in spite of the Contras and in spite of the US embargoes and dumping of mines in Nicaraguan harbours.

The American opposition to the Sandinistas had less to do with the discredited "domino theory" or the necessities of the Cold War than it did with American Big Business's preference for dealing with corrupt Central American dictatorships. It's so much more profitable to deal with an easily-bribeable regime who doesn't need the support of its people. Want cheap labour? For a modest sum, we'll shoot anyone who looks like starting a Trades Union and enforce starvation wages! Want to strip-mine somewhere, but find it's inhabited by peasants? No problem! Our Disappearance fees are some of the most competitive in the region! The sad and sordid truth is that more blood has probably been shed for the benefit of the bottom lines of United Fruit and the Metal Box Company in Central and South America than for any political ideology. American support for the Contras is a blemish -- one among many -- on the face of the US claim to support democracy. It was also a violation of International and American law, and showed a contempt for the democratic institutions of your nation.

There's a good, balanced article on the Sandinistas on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandinista).
Even so, the Soviet Union was drawing itself closer to Nicaragua. They may have been democratically elected, but as history has shown, democratically elected doesn't always mean the most liberal. Hugo Chavez, Yasser Arafat, and Vladimir Putin are also democratically elected, yet autocratic and ruthless. I believe the same could apply to the Sadanistas.

Even so, the Soviet Union was drawing itself closer to Nicaragua. They may have been democratically elected, but as history has shown, democratically elected doesn't always mean the most liberal. Hugo Chavez, Yasser Arafat, and Vladimir Putin are also democratically elected, yet autocratic and ruthless. I believe the same could apply to the Sadanistas.

The Sandinistas were forced to look for help from the USSR because the USA were funding Nicaraguan terrorists and dropping mines in their harbours -- an act of war, some might say. If you're being beaten up by a superpower, it's natural to turn to another, opposing superpower for help. If the USA hadn't backed the vile Somoza regime, and if it hadn't attempted to undermine the surprisingly healthy and robust democracy instituted in the main by the Sandinistas, but had instead applauded the overthrow of an evil dictator and assisted the Nicaraguan people, it's highly unlikely that the Soviets would have had a look-in and the USA would have helped to spread democracy in an area blighted by dictatorship.

It was a tragic error, committed for base purposes, and thousands of innocent Nicaraguan civilians paid for it with their lives. And the fact that the Reagan administration subverted US democracy to carry it out, whilst channeling arms to Iran, of all places, surely makes it one of the blackest and most shameful episodes of recent US history. It arguably calls into question the liberality and democracy of the USA.

The Sandinistas were forced to look for help from the USSR because the USA were funding Nicaraguan terrorists and dropping mines in their harbours -- an act of war, some might say. If you're being beaten up by a superpower, it's natural to turn to another, opposing superpower for help. If the USA hadn't backed the vile Somoza regime, and if it hadn't attempted to undermine the surprisingly healthy and robust democracy instituted in the main by the Sandinistas, but had instead applauded the overthrow of an evil dictator and assisted the Nicaraguan people, it's highly unlikely that the Soviets would have had a look-in and the USA would have helped to spread democracy in an area blighted by dictatorship.

It was a tragic error, committed for base purposes, and thousands of innocent Nicaraguan civilians paid for it with their lives. And the fact that the Reagan administration subverted US democracy to carry it out, whilst channeling arms to Iran, of all places, surely makes it one of the blackest and most shameful episodes of recent US history. It arguably calls into question the liberality and democracy of the USA.

I am not an expert on the exact details of Nicaragua's civil conflict, but it is reasonable to assume that if the US needed to get involved, something went terribly wrong with the status quo. The Samozas were horrible, yes, but at least they maintained both peace in Central America, and ensured that the next Cuban missile crisis wouldn't happen. While I wish it didn't happen, it was necessary to ensure that the Soviet Union didn't gain more influence in Latin America than it already had. It is why Pinochet also came to power. They were all dirty tactics, but let's look at the results: after the Cuban Missile crisis, not one stable Communist government could be established anywhere in the Western hemisphere.

I am not an expert on the exact details of Nicaragua's civil conflict, but it is reasonable to assume that if the US needed to get involved, something went terribly wrong with the status quo. The Samozas were horrible, yes, but at least they maintained both peace in Central America, and ensured that the next Cuban missile crisis wouldn't happen. While I wish it didn't happen, it was necessary to ensure that the Soviet Union didn't gain more influence in Latin America than it already had. It is why Pinochet also came to power. They were all dirty tactics, but let's look at the results: after the Cuban Missile crisis, not one stable Communist government could be established anywhere in the Western hemisphere.

The USA "got involved" because one of their pet dictators got booted out by his people after years of miserably oppression. This was inconvenient to several large US corporations, who had been dealing profitably with Somoza and had enjoyed a great deal of cheap labour and freedom from inconvenient laws in return for relatively small bribes.

The people who kicked Somoza out wanted to establish a democracy. In spite of the illegal interference of the USA, they achieved this. It's quite ridiculous to suggest that, if the USA hadn't supported the Contra terrorists, "the next Cuban missile crisis" would have occurred: apart from anything else, the original Cuban missile crisis had achieved what the Soviet Union had wanted all along -- the withdrawal of US missiles from Turkey.

Nicaragua was, and is, a democracy. The Sandinistas established that democracy, and accepted democratic defeat with a good grace that George W Bush could usefully take note of. Shedding crocodile tears for the deaths of thousands on the spurious grounds that it "prevented another Cuban missile crisis" is just grotesque.

The Reagan administration undermined American democracy, in order to undermine Nicaraguan democracy. It was, and is, a disgrace of monstrous proportions. Placed alongside the pious bleatings of the current administration -- which contains several members of Reagan's goon squad -- about "supporting democracy in Iraq", "fighting terrorism" and "overthrowing a brutal dictator", it's enough to make you vomit.

I admit it, the US has supported terrorists in the past.

Bin Laden and how his mudjaheen fought the Soviets, anyone?

So to recount, the highest levels of the Reagan administration broke direct Congressional orders, all sorts of laws, and the US sanctions against Iran so that they could sell weapons to a radical Islamic regime which hates us, in order to use the resulting monies to fight the formation of a democracy halfway across the world. And, of course, many of the people involved (Oliver North, John Poindexter) are hailed today as heros who "did what was needed to do, even after those damn Democrats told them not to" and occupy positions of power within the government.

Beautiful.

We sold weapons to a terrorist nation to prevent the establishment of democracy. How is any part of that justifiable?!

So to recount, the highest levels of the Reagan administration broke direct Congressional orders, all sorts of laws, and the US sanctions against Iran so that they could sell weapons to a radical Islamic regime which hates us, in order to use the resulting monies to fight the formation of a democracy halfway across the world. And, of course, many of the people involved (Oliver North, John Poindexter) are hailed today as heros who "did what was needed to do, even after those damn Democrats told them not to" and occupy positions of power within the government.

Beautiful.

We sold weapons to a terrorist nation to prevent the establishment of democracy. How is any part of that justifiable?!
Because we were acting in our own interests, DUH!

Right..the US stopped the poor Nicaraguans from developing democracy...because we all know how the USSR promoted democracy in Cuba, and Eastern Europe. Hindsight bias is a wonderful thing isnt it? Also the Sandanistas got help from Cuba before they even came into power. Its not that they couldnt go to the US for help,its just that they were inherently against the US.

As for Bin Laden, in the 1980s he was a Saudi playboy who went to play soldier and saw how war truely was, I think he has a piece of Soviet mortar stuck in his brain to because that man is a psychopath. In no way though did the US solely support Bin Laden. We supported a wide range of groups who formed the Mujahadeen.(And no,none of them were the Taliban, they werent formed until around 1994.) Granted we can say this was a bad move but hindsight bias to say things are wrong will lead humanity into walking in circles discussing what we shouldnt have done. Instead of looking at the present and the future.

The cold war is over, the Sandanistas are gone from power. The US and the Russians are no longer playing global chess so STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING ABOUT WHAT THE US DID MORE THAN TWO DECADES AGO. Another era completely..not that none of you could understand that basic concept.

Check it out:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/cuba.htm
http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/history/frusX/376_390.html


from http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/books/WesternStateTerrorism.html


You live in Miami, don't you Biff? Go bust 'em!

Oh come on....this is 1960's Bay of Pigs stuff.....anything relevant to today? I want to know about the terrorists in Miami that we are harboring now.

Oh come on....this is 1960's Bay of Pigs stuff.....anything relevant to today?

...

Right..the US stopped the poor Nicaraguans from developing democracy...because we all know how the USSR promoted democracy in Cuba, and Eastern Europe. Hindsight bias is a wonderful thing isnt it? Also the Sandanistas got help from Cuba before they even came into power. Its not that they couldnt go to the US for help,its just that they were inherently against the US.

As for Bin Laden, in the 1980s he was a Saudi playboy who went to play soldier and saw how war truely was, I think he has a piece of Soviet mortar stuck in his brain to because that man is a psychopath. In no way though did the US solely support Bin Laden. We supported a wide range of groups who formed the Mujahadeen.(And no,none of them were the Taliban, they werent formed until around 1994.) Granted we can say this was a bad move but hindsight bias to say things are wrong will lead humanity into walking in circles discussing what we shouldnt have done. Instead of looking at the present and the future.

The cold war is over, the Sandanistas are gone from power. The US and the Russians are no longer playing global chess so STOP FUCKING COMPLAINING ABOUT WHAT THE US DID MORE THAN TWO DECADES AGO. Another era completely..not that none of you could understand that basic concept.

Oh, pardon me. I didn't realise that the statute of limitations on international crime, supporting terrorism and subverting democracy at home and abroad was so short.

In any case, the US didn't stop the Sandinistas from establishing a democracy. They succeeded, despite all the illegal attempts of the Reagan administration to undermine them and restore the Somoza dictatorship. They won. They created a democracy. When the Nicaraguan people voted them out of office, they quietly accepted the result and handed over power. They are still a significant element within a democratic Nicaragua. Not a bad result for a bunch of guys versus a superpower. I'd call that a victory for the Sandinistas.

I've been to depressed to add to this since mAy, a) because Tom died in June, and b) the US government just is so horribly deformed.

Christina


The U.S. At War 1775-2004

Tom Morrison and Christina Janke

1608-1987- In between these years, the US and earlier colonies executed an estimated 14 634 of its citizens.
1775- American troops invade Quebec, Canada, during the American Revolution, but are repulsed.
1776, July 7- The British colonies in North America declare independence from Great Britain.
1800, June- The US hangs 35 Black rights campaigners in Virginia.
1801- US freebooters invade the northern territories of New Spain (Mexico).
1806- US troops invade Mexico near the headwaters of the Rio Grande, but are repulsed.
1814- US troops massacre 800 Creek Indians.
1817-19- US troops invade the New Spanish territory of Florida and occupy the east of it.
1822, June- The US executes Black rights campaigner Denmark Vesey and a small number of his comrades in Charleston.
1831- US ships blockade Argentine coasts in an attempt to seize the Malvinas archipelago.
1831, August- The US hangs 16 Black rights campaigners in Jerusalem, Virginia.
1832- The US attempts to annex Jamaica to allow slave labour on the island to continue.
1833- US troops invade Argentina.
1835- US troops invade and occupy parts of Peru.
1846- The US invades Mexico and annexes one million square miles of territory.
1847- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte.
1848- After its brutal military victory over Mexico, the US strips Mexico of almost half of its territories, including New Mexico, California and the rest of Texas.
1851- The governor of California calls for the extermination of all native American Indians in California.
1852- US troops invade Argentina again.
1853- US naval commander Admiral Perry arrives with warships off the coast of Japan, and demands that Japan open its ports to US commodities and merchants.
1854- US warships bombard the Nicaraguan port of San Juan del Norte, in reprisal against supposed offences against a US diplomat.
1855- A US warship attacks Paraguay to force the Paraguayan government to open Paraguayan rivers for ‘free navigation’.
1855- US troops invade Paraguay.
1856- The US supports a military takeover in Nicaragua led by a US freebooter, William Walker, who proclaims himself the president of Nicaragua and has slavery restored.
1859- US ships blockade Paraguay.
1861, March 4- The US declares war on the Confederate States of America.
1861, July 21- US and Confederate forces attack one another at near Bull Run, Virginia. The US kills 2000 confederate troops.
1862, September 14- US and Confederate forces clash in Maryland. The US kills 27 000 Confederates.
1863, July- US and Confederate forces clash with a total of 44 000 killed. 23 000 of the killed were US troops.
1865- US troops invade Panama.
1866- The US annexes the Mexican territories of El Chamizal.
1867-71- The US attempts to annex the Dominican Republic, but fails.
1882- US naval forces invade Korea.
1885- US troops invade Panama.
1886, May 3- Chicago policemen open fire on a peaceful worker’s protest, killing 4.
1890- The US sends troops into Buenos Aiers, Argentina, to protect US interests.
1890, December 29- US troops massacre 200-300 Sioux Dakotan Indians at Wounded Knee, South Dakota. Since 1608, tens of millions of Native Americans and African people who had been taken from their families to be slaves in the US have been killed.
1890-1980- Over 90 years, over 5000 African-Americans were lynched legally. During the 1890s alone, over 1000 are hanged.
1891- US naval forces blockade the ports of Haiti and in an attempt to force the Haitian government to surrender Mole de Saint Nicholas Bay.
1891- US marines clash with nationalist rebels in Chile.
1891- US troops successfully put down a worker’s revolt on the US claimed Navassa Island.
1893(?)- The US overthrows the Hawaiian government and annexes Hawaii.
1894- US troops repress a railway workers’ strike in Chicago, killing 34.
1894- The US invades Nicaragua.
1894-96- US troops invade Brazil.
1895- The US invades Colombia.
1896- The US invades the Nicaraguan port of Corinto.
1898- The US declares war on Spain and invades Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines. From 1899 to 1902, 125 000 US troops subdue Philippine independence fighters. Over 16 000 Filipino troops and an estimated 200 000 to 600 000 Filipino civilians were killed.
1898- US troops attack Chippewa Indians at Leech Lake, Minnesota.
1899- The US manipulates the struggle for the throne in Samoa in order to gain an upper hand in the region.
1899- US troops invade Nicaragua and occupy the port of San Juan del Norte again for a month.
1900- The US sends troops to China to join the multinational western forces suppressing the 1898-1900 Boxer Rebellion.
1900- The US declares Puerto Rico a part of the USA against the will of the people living there.
1901- US troops brutally put down a Creek Indian revolt in Okalahoma.
1902- The US establishes naval bases in Cuba.
1903- The US invades Colombia, creating a new state of Panama, backed by the US navy.
1903- The US invades Honduras.
1905- The US invades the Dominican Republic.
1905- The US invades Costa Rica.
1906- The US invades Cuba and occupies it until 1909 in order to prevent a candidate opposed to the US getting voted into office.
1907- The US invades Nicaragua and Honduras.
1908- The US intervenes with the elections in Panama.
1909- The US invades Nicaragua and occupies it until 1925.
1912- The US invades China to suppress a rebellion and occupies it until 1938.
1912- US troops intervene in Panama to rig the presidential elections.
1912- The US invades Honduras again.
1914- The US invades Mexico again.
1914- US troops plunder the gold reserves of Puerto Cortes.
1914- US troops occupy Veracruz, Mexico.
1915, July 28- Having sent warships into Haitian harbours 20 times between 1850 to 1915, the US invades Haiti in order to prevent anti-US politician and occupies it until 1934.
1916- The US invades Mexico for the third time.
1917-18- The US declares war on Germany.
1917- The US invades Cuba again and occupies it until 1922.
1917- The US invades Costa Rica again.
1917- The US executes 62 African-American soldiers who rioted against white harassment in Houston, Texas.
1918- The US invades the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic along with 13 other countries in an attempt to suppress the new worker's state. So begins the War on Communism that shall last until 1991.
1918-20- The US invades Mexico, Panama, Honduras and Guatemala.
1919- The US intervenes in Yugoslavia on behalf of the Greeks against Serbs in Dalmatia.
1920- The US invades Guatemala to overthrow its government.
1920-21- The US bombs striking mine workers in West Virginia.
1922- The US ignores the Soviet Union’s proposal for complete international disarmament.
1922- US troops fight nationalists in Turkey.
1924-25- The US intervenes in the elections in Honduras.
1925- US troops suppress a general strike in Panama.
1926- The US sends 25 000 marines to invade Nicaragua again to make sure that the US puppet dictator Adolfo Diaz would be overthrown by Liberal rebellions, occupying it until 1933.
1927- The US ignores the Soviet Union’s second proposal for complete international disarmament.
1931- The US invades Guatemala again.
1932- The US sends warships to suppress a revolt in El Salvador.
1933- The US threatens Cuba with invasion.
1938- The US Naval Bill signals construction of the world's largest navy.
1942-45- The US bombs Japan. 672 000 Japanese people are killed in the bombings. The US also bombs France and Germany, killing over 500 000 Germans and thousands of French people.
1943- The US bombs Romania.
1943- US troops brutally put down an African-American revolution in Detroit, Michigan.
1943- The US bombs Hamburg in Germany, killing 50 000.
1945- The US bombs Dresden, Germany, killing 180 000 people.
1945- With the defeat of the German Nazis, the US employs a number of former Nazis, including Reinhard Gehlen, who was the chief of the Nazi anti-soviet intelligence unit and became the head of West Germany’s intel under the US and Klaus Barbie, the ‘butcher of Lyon’ who was hired by the US and later served as a liaison between the US and a number of Latin American drug lords.
1945- The US drops nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in Japan, killing over 240 000 altogether.
1945-49- The US bombs and invades China with over 113 000 troops and 600 aeroplanes.
1946- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war after soviets refuse to surrender southern Azerbaijan to US ally Iran. The USSR had no nuclear weapons at this stage.
1946- US warships shell Yugoslav coastal towns after a US plane was shot down over Yugoslavia. They then threaten Yugoslavia with nuclear annihilation.
1946-49- The US and England bomb and invade Greece with 5000 troops and 200 aeroplanes in order to prevent the revolution taking place there from overthrowing the US backed fascist government.
1947- The US flies bombers carrying nuclear weapons over Uruguay in order to intimidate the leftist government there.
1947- The US invades Paraguay.
1947-48- The US sends troops into the Philippines to destroy a people’s revolution there.
1948-present- The US supports Israel, which has massacred thousands of Palestinian civilians. During the Jewish takeover, over 700 000 Palestinians were driven from their homes.
1948- The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR again over East Germany.
1949- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the elected government of Syria.
1949- The US oversees the executions of hundreds of innocent South Korean civilians who happened to be communist or communist sympathetic.
1949-61- The CIA supplies arms to Chinese Nationalists in Burma.
1950-53- The US invades North Korea with over 350 000 troops, 1000 tanks, 1600 warplanes and 300 warships. From 1950-53, the US fights the Korean War and bombs China and Korea, using terrible weapons such as napalm, bacteriological and chemical weapons and twice threatened to use nuclear weapons. Over 2 500 000 North Korean and Chinese people are killed. One of the worst massacres committed by the US occurred at the village of Nogun-Ri, where all 400 villagers, including children and elderly, were machine-gunned to death by US troops. During the war, the US adopted a ‘scorched earth’ policy and used the USAF to napalm irrigation dams and facilities that provided 75% of North Korea’s food production. When German Nazis did this in WWII to smaller facilities it was considered a war crime. There is still mass-starvation in North Korea as a result of the napalm attacks.
1950- The US crushes a rebellion in Puerto Rico.
1951-54- The CIA supplies weapons to agents in China.
1952- The US begins H-bomb tests on the Alaskan island of Bikini Atoll. The inhabitants were forcibly removed from their homes in order to begin the tests.
1953- The CIA backs a military coup deposing the democratically elected government of Iran, which had begun nationalising Western companies. Installs the Shah instead, who begins brutal repressions of all opposition.
1953- US troops invade Nicaragua.
1954- The US bombs Guatemala and overthrows its government in order to prevent the Guatemalan government from nationalising the United Fruit company.
1954- The US offers nuclear weapons to the French to destroy the communist revolution in Vietnam. Politely refused.
1956- The US supports the Anglo-French-Israeli invasion of Egypt in retaliation against Egyptian president Nasser’s nationalisation of the Suez Canal and alliance with the Soviet Union. The US threatens nuclear war with the USSR if soviet troops intervene.
1956- The US assists fascists in Hungary to assassinate prominent socialists.
1958- The US invades Lebanon with 14 000 marines.
1958- The US bombs Indonesia and supplies arms to anti-Sukarno rebels.
1958- The US threatens Iraq with nuclear war after Iraq begins preparations to depose the US-backed tyrannical leader of Kuwait.
1958- The US threatens China with nuclear war over Taiwan.
1958- The US pressures West Germany into rearming the West German army.
1959-61- The US bombs Cuba.
1960s-present- The US backs the Colombian government, under which an estimated 67 000 people have been killed.
1960s- The US unsuccessfully attempts to assassinate the Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.
1960- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1960- The CIA blows up the Coubre in the bay of Havana, killing a number of people.
1960- US troops fire on protesters in Panama.
1961, April 17- The US attempts to invade Cuba with 1500 mercenaries, 80 warplanes and 35 warships. The attempt is a complete failure.
1961- Socialist Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba of Zaire is assassinated at the express request of US president Eisenhower after Lumumba nationalised several foreign industries in Zaire.
1961- US threatens German Democratic Republic with nuclear war.
1961- The US bombs Vietnam.
1962- The US imposes a naval/air blockade on Cuba and threatens nuclear war.
1963, November 22- A CIA operative called AM/LASH is given authorisation by the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro with a syringe disguised as a pen. The plot was aborted after Kennedy was assassinated.
1963, December 23- A CIA commando unit uses underwater demolition charges to sink the Cuban navy torpedo boat LT-385 off the coast of the Isle of Pines. 4 personnel are killed.
1964, June 15- US President Lyndon Johnson approves of OPLAN-106-5A, in which the US would make a ‘lightening attack’ on the USSR. The plans included using nuclear weapons on military sites, industrial centres and cities in the USSR, the GDR, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, Yugoslavia, Albania and even Austria. Fortunately, the plan was never employed.
1964- US troops fire on a peaceful protest in Panama killing 21.
1964- The US, Britain and Belgium invade and bomb the Congo with 10 000 troops and 60 warplanes.
1964- The US backs the overthrow of the Greek government. In the years to come, tens of thousands are killed by the new regime.
1964- The US supports a bloodthirsty coup in Brazil.
1964- The US invades Panama and kills hundreds of people trying to overthrow the fascist US-backed regime.
1964-73- The US invades and bombs Laos with 50 000 troops and 1500 warplanes. An estimated 500 000 people are killed.
1965- The US bombs Peru.
1965- US troops and policeman kill 27 rioters during the Watt riots in the US.
1965-73- The US invades Vietnam with 2.6 million troops, 10 000 warplanes and helicopters and hundreds of tanks and warships. The USAF drops napalm, Agent Orange and fourteen million tonnes of bombs and rockets on Vietnam, twice the tonnage of bombs in the whole of World War II and equal to 700 atomic bombs like those dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. During the war, the US began the Phoenix Program, which saw the executions of almost 250 000 people belonging to or associated with communist or nationalist movements in Vietnam. The Agent Orange used during the war still causes birth deformities today.
1965-73-The US assists the Thai government in suppressing a popular uprising.
1965- The US invades the Dominican Republic with 40 000 troops, 275 warplanes and 50 warships.
1965- The US backs the coup in Indonesia that results in General Suhato coming to power. Under Suhato, an estimated one million communists, suspected communists and communist sympathisers are executed.
1965-77- US documents reveal that the US navy experienced 381 accidents with nuclear weapons between these years.
1966- The US sells 16 F-14 Phantom jets to Iran.
1966-67- US Green Berets intervene in Guatemala against rebels.
1967-69- The US bombs Guatemala again.
1967, June- The US Army 327th Infantry Division, or Tiger Force, is shipped into Vietnam. During their time in Vietnam, Tiger Force committed terrible atrocities, such as the massacring of 10 elderly Vietnamese farmers tending a field. The commanding officer of Tiger Force, Colonel Morse, demanded the troops meet a body count of 327 to match the division’s designation. One Tiger Force soldier, Sam Ybarra, raped and murdered a 13 year old girl and shot a 15 year old boy for his tennis shoes. For killing this boy, Ybarra was commended for having killed the 1000th person in Operation Wheeler.
1967, June 5- The US lends military support to the Israeli invasion of Egypt, Jordan and Syria.
1967- US troops kill 43 African-American rights activists during a riot in Detroit.
1968- The US COINTELPOL program kills 29 members of the African-American rights organisation the Black Panthers.
1968, March- US troops massacre 500 innocent Vietnamese civilians, including women, children and elderly people, at My Lai in the worst massacre of civilians since Nogun-Ri during the Korean War.
1968, May 18- The US assassinates African-American rights campaigner Martin Luther King Jr. US stations an average of 21 000 troops in each major city to prevent uprisings.
1968, November 8-9- The US bombs villages near the Cambodian border.
1968-72- The US launches operation Speedy Express in Vietnam. over 11 000 Vietnamese were killed in the operation but less than 500 arms recovered.
1969-75- The US invades and bombs Cambodia with 70 000 troops, 500 warplanes and 40 warships. Up to 2 million Cambodians killed in campaign.
1970- The US assists the Iranian invasion of Oman.
1972, April 25- US president Richard Nixon states his desire to use nuclear bombs on Vietnam. He is advised not to, not to save innocent lives, but to makes sure public opinion doesn’t swing any further against the administration.
1973, February 27- Native American Indians seize Wounded Knee, the sight of the 1890 massacre, demanding a US Senate investigation into Native American problems. US policemen kill people during the 70 day siege that follows.
1973, September 11- The US supports a coup to overthrow the popularly elected socialist President Allende of Chile. Approximately 30 000 are killed by the Pinochet regime.
1973- The US makes plans to invade Saudi Arabia to solve its fuel crisis. The plans were later abandoned.
1974- The Vietnam War ends. An estimated 3 500 000 Vietnamese were killed.
1975- The US arms Angolan nationalist rebels in an attempt to overthrow the popularly elected government there.
1975- According to John Pilger and Noam Chomsky, the US overthrew Australian Prime Minister Gough Whitlam through the Governor-General. Whitlam wanted to know how many CIA agents and US bases there were in his country and thus had to be removed.
1976-92- The CIA trains Angolan nationalist rebels.
1976, October 6- CIA agent Orlando Bosch hires 2 Venezuelan mercenaries to plant bombs on a Cubana Airlines passenger plane flying from Babados. All 73 passengers on board are killed.
1976-2002- Between these years the US executes 810 of its citizens.
1979- The US supports Saddam Hussein’s bloody takeover of power in Iraq. Hussein immediately switches Iraq’s allegiance from the Soviet Union to the US.
1980- Throughout the 1980s, the US bombs El Salvador and Nicaragua.
1980- US threatens Iran with nuclear war after Iranian Revolution.
1980- The US threatens the USSR with nuclear war if soviet troops intervene in Iran.
1980- Iraq invades Iran with US arms and support.
1980- The US gives military assistance to the fascist junta in El Salvador.
1980, September 11- US extreme-right terrorist organisation Omega 7 murders Cuban diplomat Felix Garcia Rodriguez on a New York City street in broad daylight.
1981- The US shoots down 2 Libyan jets.
1981- US warships mine harbours in Nicaragua.
1981, December 1- US President Ronald Reagan grants $19 million to be spent on training 500 Nicaraguan rebels to fight the Sandinista government in Nicaragua.
1982- The US trains hundreds of El Salvadorian troops of the tyrannical US-puppet regime in place in El Salvador.
1983- The US invades Lebanon with 2000 troops and 30 warships to prop up a pro-Western government.
1983- The US bombs and invades Grenada. 84 Cubans and an estimated 400 Grenadans are killed.
1983- The USS New Jersey bombs hill villages in Lebanon as part of the Israeli invasion.
1984- The US Commerce Department issues license for export of aflatoxin to Iraq useable in biological weapons. Iraq uses these gasses to kill Kurdish civilians in 1988.
1984- The US shoots down 2 Iranian jets over the Persian Gulf.
1984- The US develops the Trident submarine, capable of levelling 229 cities at one time.
1985- The US Reagan administration uses a truck loaded with bombs to kill a Muslin cleric in Beirut who was opposed to the US. The attack killed 80 people and wounded 200 more.
1986- The US attacks Libyan patrol boats and shore installations, killing 72 personnel.
1986- The US bombs Libya, killing over 100 people, including Colonel Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1986, October- The US spends $100 million to assist the Nicaraguan Contras against the Sandinista government.
1986-87- The US practices first strike attacks against the Soviet Union and ignores nuclear testing bans issued by the USSR.
1987- The US sends a naval fleet to the Persian Gulf to support Iraq's war against Iran. US warships destroy Iranian oil platforms in the Gulf.
1988- The USS Vincennes shoots down an Iranian Airbus, killing 290 civilians.
1988- The Iraqi government uses US biological weapons supplied to them in 1984 to gas Kurds in Halabja, northern Iraq.
1989- The US bombs and invades Panama with 20 000 troops, killing an estimated 7000 people.
1989- The US shoots down two Libyan aircraft.
1989- The US arms Afghani terrorists and landlords with sophisticated technology to repulse the Soviet invasion and overthrow the popular revolutionary Afghani Marxist government. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan eventually costs the USSR so much that it goes bankrupt and collapses.
1989- The US’ pocket organisation NATO is responsible for the terrorist bombing of the Bologna railway station in East Germany, killing 86 people.
1991- The US invades Iraq with 535 000 troops and 2950 warplanes. This was the first time the US used Uranium shells on civilians. Over 300 000 Iraqi people were killed. Since the end of the end of the war, 10 000 US soldiers who served in Iraq have died from uranium poisoning from American shells.
1991, March 15- US president George H. Bush gives CIA agent Jose Basullo of the US terrorist organisation Brothers to the Rescue 3 US Air Force type 0-2 aeroplanes. The 0-2s are used to violate Cuban airspace and terrorise the population until the Cubans are forced to shoot them down in 1996.
1991, December 25- The greatest disaster in modern history: the Soviet Union collapses leaving the US as the sole superpower on the planet. It is believed that between 1946 and 1991, the US spent $30 trillion trying to destroy the USSR.
1992- US troops are deployed to put down anti-police riots in Los Angeles.
1993- The US invades Somalia, killing over 10 000 civilians. In one particularly brutal attack, the US killed hundreds of peaceful protesters with helicopter gunships. This gruesome massacre was glorified by the US in the Hollywood film Black Hawk Down. The film drew a great response in Somalia, where film-goers cheered wildly whenever an American soldier was killed or wounded in the film.
1993- The US bombs Iraq
1994- The US invades Haiti again.
1994, May- NATO bombs the Bosnian village of Gorazde, killing 1000 civilians and militiamen.
1994, April- NATO bombs Serbian forces.
Mid-1990s- The US Clinton administration supplies 80% of the arms used by Turkish forces to crush the Turkish Kurd population.
1995- US generals in Croatia advise the neo-fascist dictator Franco Tudjman to force over 300 000 Serbs from their homes in a vast operation called ‘Operation Storm’.
1995- The US invades and bombs Bosnia.
1995- The US bombs airfields in Croatia.
1995- The US invades Iraq again under the name ‘Desert Storm’.
1996- The US ‘saturate’ bombs Iraq.
1996-97- US troops harass Rwandan refugees in Congo.
1998- The US bombs Sudan.
1998- The US bombs Afghanistan. 3700 were killed during this attack.
1998- The US bombs Iraq again.
1999- The US bombs Serbia, killing over 3000 civilians. US troops utilised uranium shells in the bombing of Belgrade.
1999- In this year the US kills the largest amount of its citizens since 1976 with a record 98 executions.
1999- By this year, up to 2000 people had been killed by the US in Kosovo.
1999, April 3- NATO planes bomb the Serbian town of Aleksinac, killing 12. Town elders recalled at the time that even Nazi bombers in the Second World War hadn’t bombed civilians.
1999, mid-April- NATO planes attack a train in Serbia, killing 27.
1999, 14 April- US planes attack 2 civilian convoys killing 75 people, wounding 31 and destroying many vehicles.
1999, 15 April- Yugoslav officials state that NATO killed over 200 civilians between the 13th and 15th of April.
1999, 7 May- NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, killing 3 embassy staff.
2000- 42% of the African-American population in Texas were on Death Row in this year. The African-American population of Texas made up 12% of the Texan population.
2001, September 11- Former CIA soldier Osama bin Laden uses his CIA training to launch two passenger airlines at the American World Trade Centres and another one at the US military HQ, the Pentagon. Thousands are killed. The US threatens Iraq, Syria, Cuba, Afghanistan and North Korea with invasion.
2001- The US invades Afghanistan. US academic Marc Herald claims that 3780 people had been killed in between the first day of bombing and May 2002, although this figure does not include civilians who have indirectly died as a result of the invasion, such as those killed by starvation. British newspaper the Guardian states that over 20 000 people have been killed as a result of the invasion. German journalist Doran witnessed and filmed the executions of 3000 Taliban prisoners by the US. So begins the War on Terrorism.
2001- US troops forcibly disarm Albanian rebels.
2001, September 30- Israel uses American helicopters to destroy civilian homes in Palestine.
2001, October 11- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Khorum in order to destroy a non-existent Taliban base. At least 100 people were killed.
2001, October 22- US troops kill 25 Afghani civilians in the village of Chowkar-Karez.
2001, October 31- US missiles kill 13 Afghani civilians in Kandahar.
2001, November- US warplanes kill several hundred rioting Taliban being held captive at the fortress of Qala-i-janghi.
2001, December 6-7- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Moshkhil. 16 civilians were killed.
2001, December 21- US warplanes attack an Afghani civilian convoy and 10 houses. 65 people were killed.
2001, December 30- US warplanes attack the Afghani village of Qalaye Niaze. According to local doctors, 107 civilians were killed. The UN puts the death toll at 52, including 25 children.
2002, May 10- Australian troops acting as part of the US invasion force in Afghanistan kill 4 men for no reason whatsoever.
2002, May 12- US troops kill two unarmed Afghani teenagers during a raid.
2002, May 16- US warplanes and Australian troops kill 10 Afghani tribesmen.
2002, May 25- US troops abduct 59 civilians and kill two people- a 100 year old man, village chief Hajji Berget, who was killed after being hit in the head with a US rifle butt, and a 6 year old girl who fell down a well fleeing in terror from US troops.
2002, July 1- A US AC-130 helicopter gunship killed 54 Afghani civilians and injured 120 in Kakarak. Some sources believe that over 300 had been killed or wounded in the attack. Most of those killed were people attending a wedding in Kakarak.
2003, March 20- The US invades Iraq again killing an estimated 500 000 people. One of the initial operations, Operation Peninsula Strike, claimed 100 civilian lives, 70 of which at a refugee camp near the Syrian border. A 70 year old shepherd and his 3 sons were shot extinguishing flames caused by US shelling.
2003, March 21- 6 Iraqi civilians are killed during US airstrikes on Basra in Iraq.
2003, March 22- The US kills between 50 and 77 civilians during an airstrike on Basra using cluster bombs.
2003, March 23- US airstrikes kill 4 civilians in Tikrit, Iraq.
2003, March 23- The US kills 14 people in Basra, Iraq.
2003, March 31- US soldiers from the US Army 3rd Infantry Division open fire on a car , killing 11 of the 17 occupants ‘by accident’ at a US checkpoint south of Karbala, Iraq. One of the survivors, Lamea Hassan, later told reporters that "I saw the heads of my two little girls come off. My girls- I saw their heads come off their bodies. My son is dead."
A journalist at the scene recorded the US captain in charge of the checkpoint yelling at the trigger-happy troops; "You just fucking killed a family because you didn’t fire a warning shot soon enough."
On the same day, 3 British soldiers were ordered to home ‘for protesting that the war is killing innocent civilians.’
2003, April- The US allows 150 Israeli commandos into Iraq to hunt and kill over 500 Iraqi scientists, according to a French general.
2003, April 1- The US kills 33 Iraqis and injures another 310 while bombing the Iraqi town of Hilla. Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji told French reporters that his wife and their six children, his father, mother and three brothers were killed during the assault in Hilla. As well as this, US troops kill an unarmed Iraqi driver outside the town of Shatra.
2003, April- US DynCorp employees assigned to police NATO-devastated Bosnia on behalf of the UN were videotaped raping women and implicated of buying and selling prostitutes as young as 12 years old.
2003, April 15- US troops kill 13 Iraqis and wound another 29 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 16- US troops kill 4 Iraqis and wound another 10 people peacefully protesting in Mosul.
2003, April 27- US troops kill between 13 and 15 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. Among the dead were three children under 11 years old.
2003, April 29- US troops open fire on 1000 Iraqis protesting in Fallujah. 2 civilians are killed and an additional 14 are injured.
2003, May 18- US troops kill 16 Iraqi resistance fighters.
2003, August 3- The US kills 70 Iraqi civilians in a crackdown on ‘Saddam Hussein loyalists’.
2003, December 8- A US airstrike kills 10 Afghani civilians, 9 of whom were children. The US claimed it was hunting for a Taliban leader.
2003- The US makes its first plans to assassinate Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez in mid-2003. The plans are fortunately discovered by the Venezuelans.
2004, January 10- Having executed three of its citizens in the first week of 2004, the US states its plans to establish a mining base on the moon, thus signalling the beginning of US expansionism into space.
2004, March- The US sends troops into Haiti to support right-wing rebels who had overthrown the democratically elected popular President Aristedes.
2004, April 7- US troops destroy a mosque in Iraq.
2004, April 8- US troops kill up to 50 Iraqi civilians during increased clashes with Iraqi freedom fighters.
2004, April 9- The US abandons 3 Japanese civilians to their fate when it advises the Japanese government to ignore the Iraqi kidnapper’s demands to have Japan withdraw its troops from Iraq. Fortunately the hostages were released.
2004, May- The US is discovered to be torturing and murdering inmates at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. There shocking photographs depicted a US soldier, Lynndie England,

Right..the US stopped the poor Nicaraguans from developing democracy...because we all know how the USSR promoted democracy in Cuba, and Eastern Europe. .
and how bad off would cuba be if the US stopped screwing them over? not this bad, maybe if they got some nukes like north vietnam we would let up :rolleyes:

OH , and on the subject thought I`d point out The US and US organisations and citizens have funded Irish Terrorists Who have attacked British cities for years. :gundge:

I've been to depressed to add to this since mAy, a) because Tom died in June, and b) the US government just is so horribly deformed.

Christina

Wow....according to you the US has invaded nearly every country on earth. Of course 90% of this is garbage, but thats ok, not everyone has an objective view of the world.

Whoops, bullshit. Tom didn't die, in fact he's in the next room. I meant Anna, who was sexually assaulted by an American tourist and committed suicide, no kidding. I AM tired to make a blunder like that. Anyway, if you want me to pull together a bibliography or something, email me on crime_thinker@hotmail.com

OH , and on the subject thought I`d point out The US and US organisations and citizens have funded Irish Terrorists Who have attacked British cities for years. :gundge:

Really? I know that some IRISH Americans have supported the IRA, but there is no support from the US government. Can you provide some proof of this assertion?

Whoops, bullshit. Tom didn't die, in fact he's in the next room. I meant Anna, who was sexually assaulted by an American tourist and committed suicide, no kidding. I AM tired to make a blunder like that. Anyway, if you want me to pull together a bibliography or something, email me on crime_thinker@hotmail.com


ANy pics of Anna , if the yank liked her maybe she`s worth a view

and how bad off would cuba be if the US stopped screwing them over? not this bad, maybe if they got some nukes like north vietnam we would let up :rolleyes:

I actually agree with you on this....except for the nukes. Castro wanted to launch nukes against the US during the missle crisis. He scared the hell out of Kruschev at the time.

Oh, and North Vietnam does not have nukes. I think you meant North Korea.

Here's a bit of my bibliography... I forgot to update it with every new entry... so this accounts for about 10% of the sources. Don't discount it, I've spent a long time chcking and double-checking every entry... when I started I was actually kind of pro-american... this was a modern history paper... but since I got obsessed with it a little and I actually became convinced to become an anarchist and a punk as a result of it. I'm sick of you yankees. I don't care how much you say this is all lies.... because it isn't. So up yours.

Wearily yours,
Christina

Adams, Phillip, 2004, ‘Silence of the Tigers’, Weekend Australian Magazine, April 17-18, p. 9.

Gaspar Quintana Alberni (ed.), 1983, Grenada- The World Against The Crime, Editorial de Ciencias Sociales, Havana.

Bowman, John S., 1985, The World Almanac of the Vietnam War, Bison Books, New York

Brophy, David, 2003, ‘Iraq: The Resistance to US Occupation’, Socialist Alternative, Issue 69 July, pp. 6-7.

Communist Party of Australia, 2004, A History of US Wars of Aggression and Intervention, CPA.

Davies, Merryl W., Sardar, Ziauddin, 2002, Why Do People Hate America?, Icon Books, Cambridge.

Democratic Socialist Party, 1994, Program of the Democratic Socialist Party, New Course Publications, Chippendale.

Dixon, Norman, 2002, ‘Afghanistan; US Massacres Villagers... Again’, Green Left Weekly, 10 July

Exhibition House of Aggression War Crimes, Crimes in Aggression War in Vietnam, Printing Factory, Ho Chi Minh City.

Grinevich, Emilia, and Gvozdarev, Boris, 1988, Washington Versus Havana, Progress Publishers, Moscow.

Gunko, B.M., 2001, ‘U.S. Terrorism’, Northstar Compass, October.

Moore, Michael, 2002, Stupid White Men, Penguin Books Australia Ltd., Camberwell.

Petrik, Ivan and Sajban, Steve, 2003, ‘Historical Facts About War Preparations by US-NATO, 1946-2002’, Northstar Compass, Vol. 18, no. 12, Aug., pp. 16-19.

Stanton, John 2003, ‘War Crimes in the Name of Freedom’, Northstar Compass, Vol. 18, no. 12, Aug., pp. 19-21.

Williams, Bill, 1999, ‘Stop NATO’s Drang Nach Osten’, Northstar Compass, April.

Women’s International Democratic Federation (WIDF), 1979, Peace, Disarmament, Co-operation- the Objects of Our Struggle, WIDF, Berlin.

Woodward, Ben 1988, Veil; The Secret Wars of the CIA 1981-1987, Pocket Books, New York.

‘158 Years of US Terror’ Socialist Alternative 2003, Issue 66 April, p. 28.

I actually agree with you on this....except for the nukes. Castro wanted to launch nukes against the US during the missle crisis. He scared the hell out of Kruschev at the time.

Oh, and North Vietnam does not have nukes. I think you meant North Korea.


---rotrotrot.

Watch a documentary on Fidel Castro called Commandante. He actually reveals how Cuba was so completely pissed off with Khruschev and his bombs.

North Korea doesn't have as many nukes as they make out. A friend of mine, Ray, went over there recently and apparently it's actually quite nice. Less soldiers on the streets than in New York! People genuinely happy (with their tax-free wages, free education and free housing). Nah, the US made a deal with North Korea... u know, we give you energy and fuel if you don't build nuclear reactor. NK said OK, and US said No way, we'd lose profit. SO NK build power plant to keep its people alive and USA Say NO WAY, we put economic sanction on you, say you the Axis of Evil and prepare to bomb you, so NK say hey, we got bombs too, so dont even think about killing or women and children, so USA initiates mass propaganda campaign.

---rotrotrot.

Watch a documentary on Fidel Castro called Commandante. He actually reveals how Cuba was so completely pissed off with Khruschev and his bombs.

North Korea doesn't have as many nukes as they make out. A friend of mine, Ray, went over there recently and apparently it's actually quite nice. Less soldiers on the streets than in New York! People genuinely happy (with their tax-free wages, free education and free housing). Nah, the US made a deal with North Korea... u know, we give you energy and fuel if you don't build nuclear reactor. NK said OK, and US said No way, we'd lose profit. SO NK build power plant to keep its people alive and USA Say NO WAY, we put economic sanction on you, say you the Axis of Evil and prepare to bomb you, so NK say hey, we got bombs too, so dont even think about killing or women and children, so USA initiates mass propaganda campaign.

You really are a moron....you quote from obvious anti-American sources and hail them as correct. Your knowledge of North Korea is also laughable at best.

Congratulations for winning the idiot prize of the year and becoming the FIRST person on this forum that I have been reduced to calling a name.

You really are a moron....you quote from obvious anti-American sources and hail them as correct. Your knowledge of North Korea is also laughable at best.

Congratulations for winning the idiot prize of the year and becoming the FIRST person on this forum that I have been reduced to calling a name.

Ick. I must point out the Biff here, while very rude, is correct. The sources, and indeed the document itself is horribly flawed. For gods sakes, the document disagrees with its own figures on some of the US "crimes". "10,000 citizens murdered" followed by "the largest civilian losses since 1976; 98 dead"

They fail on many levels to correctly or even consitently classify those killed as a direct result of inproper US action, those affected by inproper US support for criminal acts carried out by others, and casualties of War and innocent civilians killed in a crossfire. I've seen figures to this effect, both projected and actual body counts; both can be quite damming themselves if framed in the proper context. You don't need to muck up some largely inaccurate list like this people, the evidence is there.

...Perhaps if those arguing here stuck to REAL crimes, provable war crimes, not the crime of negligence or the crime of ignorance; they'd have better results. But that would take scholarly research and be quite time consuming. Its better to simply have an agenda and twist a few factoids and half-truths to your purpose, right?

In fact, some documentaries have shown that city life for party members in N. Korea is actually quite good. Mind you thats CITY life for PARTY members; the world hunger figures paint a pretty realistic picture of life outside those cities. Mass starvation is not exactly a political issue in my eyes; the amount of food that the World ships to N. Korea every year is horribly mismanaged though; the hunger problem gets worse, not better, every year. Defending a regime that can't feed its own people WHEN IT HAS THE FOOD, is just sheer folly.

I know the Contras were bad, but I'm proud the US supported them. The US had bad experiences with the USSR and Cuban forces in Latin America. Therefore, we needed to fight fire with fire. The US needed to show the USSR that communism in Latin America wasn't tolerated like it was before. I know it was dirty, but I think that communism was a far worse threat, not just to our national security, but to individuals around the world.
I'm not saying that it was right for the USSR to intervene in Latin America, but I think human lives are a lot more important than America's petty little ideological wars.

How is it America's place to tolerate or not tolerate communism in other countries? If a nation's people want communists in power, they should elect a communist party and other nations, including America, should accept their decision. Big business should not override democracy.

Communism was not a threat to America's security. The USSR was, but that's not the same thing. The American people are traditionally the antithesis of communists. There was never any danger of Americans catching the "communist revolution" bug.

Ronald Reagan liked to paint the Nicaraguan Sandanistas as an evil comie group with the intent of taking over Latin America - the "revolution without borders." His source was a speech made by Sandanista leader Tomas Borge explaining that Nicaragua hoped to develop successfully and provide a model for others, who would have to follow their own paths. The speech was wildly distorted by the US administration into a design for world conquest, and faithfully relayed by the big business media.

I'm not saying that it was right for the USSR to intervene in Latin America, but I think human lives are a lot more important than America's petty little ideological wars.

How is it America's place to tolerate or not tolerate communism in other countries? If a nation's people want communists in power, they should elect a communist party and other nations, including America, should accept their decision. Big business should not override democracy.

Communism was not a threat to America's security. The USSR was, but that's not the same thing. The American people are traditionally the antithesis of communists. There was never any danger of Americans catching the "communist revolution" bug.

Ronald Reagan liked to paint the Nicaraguan Sandanistas as an evil comie group with the intent of taking over Latin America - the "revolution without borders." His source was a speech made by Sandanista leader Tomas Borge explaining that Nicaragua hoped to develop successfully and provide a model for others, who would have to follow their own paths. The speech was wildly distorted by the US administration into a design for world conquest, and faithfully relayed by the big business media.
its reagan what do you expect

[Bodies Without Organs #26]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Never negotiate with terrorists. Use them if you can, of course, but never negotiate with them.

Ah, so we should all just go back to shooting each other in Northern Ireland now, instead of having had ten years of an uneasy peace brought about by the negotiations held with the paramilitaries?

Talking sensibly with someone who wants to talk is fine.

Talking with someone who simply makes demands is not.

As I said, "talking"/"negotiating" is contingent on the interests of the parties involved.

If both sides are sick of fighting, then both sides are "using" the other by talking to get what they each want.

But demand-makers should never be negotiated with. It just encourages them.

:)

They may have been democratically elected, but as history has shown, democratically elected doesn't always mean the most liberal. Hugo Chavez, Yasser Arafat, and Vladimir Putin are also democratically elected, yet autocratic and ruthless. I believe the same could apply to the Sadanistas.
Are you saying that the US should arm and fund terrorists seeking to subvert Vladimir Putin's government? For example the Chechen rebels and Beslan mass murderers?

Well, it would not be too surprising given that you're already trying to subvert the other two. (Though I would agree that Arafat needs to go.)

[Siljhouettes #27]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biff Pileon
The US shelters and funds terrorists in Miami? Oh please show me where.


Check it out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noam Chomsky,
Hegemony or Survival p.80-86]...


http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/cuba.htm
http://www.state.gov/www/about_stat...sX/376_390.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Noam Chomsky,
International Terrorism:
Image and Reality[/i]...


from http://free.freespeech.org/american...eTerrorism.html


You live in Miami, don't you Biff? Go bust 'em!

Oh my god..!
Chomskyite rubbish (http://www.encounterbooks.com/books/anch/anch.html)..!

The ramblings of a demented linguist.

Go Leftists..! :D

Oh come on....this is 1960's Bay of Pigs stuff.....anything relevant to today? I want to know about the terrorists in Miami that we are harboring now.
You want post-Cold War stuff? Maybe you didn't read this part of the quote:


On the 30th anniversary of the missile crisis (October 1992) Cuba protested a machine-gun attack against a Spanish-Cuban tourist hotel; responsibility was claimed by a group in Miami. Bombings in Cuba in 1997, in which an Italian tourist was killed, were traced back to Miami. The perpetrators were Salvadoran criminals operating under the direction of Luis Posada Carriles and financed in Miami. One of the most notorious international terrorists, Posada had escaped from Venezualan prison, where he had been held for the Cubana airliner bombing, with the aid of Miami businessman Jorge Mas Canosa, who was head of the Cuban-American National Foundation. Posada went from Venezuela to El Salvador, where he worked at the Ilopango air base to help organise US terrorist attacks against Nicaragua under Oliver North's direction.

Posada has described in detail his terrorist activities and the funding from CANF in Miami. He was a Bay of Pigs veteran, and his subsequent operations in the 1960s were directed by the CIA.

Sounds like there have been terrorist attacks in recent years too, but I doubt with the intensity of the Cold War period.

Chomskyite rubbish

The ramblings of a demented linguist.

Go Leftists..! :D
I won't say that Chomsky gives unbiased accounts of history, but can you find me any outright lies in his work?

Never negotiate with terrorists. Use them if you can, of course, but never negotiate with them.Talking sensibly with someone who wants to talk is fine.

Talking with someone who simply makes demands is not.

As I said, "talking"/"negotiating" is contingent on the interests of the parties involved.

If both sides are sick of fighting, then both sides are "using" the other by talking to get what they each want.

But demand-makers should never be negotiated with. It just encourages them.

So when you say "never negotiate with terrorists" you don't actually mean "never negotiate with terrorists" but something completely different?

You really are a moron....you quote from obvious anti-American sources and hail them as correct.

Am I to conclude that you are saying that all sources that express anything anti-American are incorrect in all their facts?

Any response to my post here showing that your claims about the Sandinistas and elections were incorrect?

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7090478&postcount=25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Never negotiate with terrorists. Use them if you can, of course, but never negotiate with them.Talking sensibly with someone who wants to talk is fine.

Talking with someone who simply makes demands is not.

As I said, "talking"/"negotiating" is contingent on the interests of the parties involved.

If both sides are sick of fighting, then both sides are "using" the other by talking to get what they each want.

But demand-makers should never be negotiated with. It just encourages them.


So when you say "never negotiate with terrorists" you don't actually mean "never negotiate with terrorists" but something completely different?


[B].."So when you say "never negotiate with terrorists" you don't actually mean "never negotiate with terrorists" but something completely different?"..

Heh he he he he... very good..! :)

Yes,... that's precisely what I mean..!

If they're acting like "terrorists" then either use them or kill them.

If using them means "talk with them because they're amenable to giving up", then certainly use them that way..!

But NEVER give-in to demands.

You exhibit the all too common psychosis of "words mean exactly what they mean", which is an obvious fallacy.

The nature of words is simply not that way.

You exhibit the all too common psychosis of "words mean exactly what they mean", which is an obvious fallacy.

The nature of words is simply not that way.

So the meaning of words are not identical with themselves? Meaning is use.

I believe in attempting to use words in a way that attempts to make my underlying meaning clearly comprehensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
You exhibit the all too common psychosis of "words mean exactly what they mean", which is an obvious fallacy.

The nature of words is simply not that way.


[B]So the meaning of words are not identical with themselves? Meaning is use.

I believe in attempting to use words in a way that attempts to make my underlying meaning clearly comprehensible.


Yes,... meaning IS use. It is always contingent on context.

We agree on using words to get across our intended meaning. But one of the lovely things about words is that there is always room for "interpretation" and "misunderstanding".

And sometimes this "interpretation" and "misunderstanding" leads to unintended insight, so they are not always a bad thing.

Perfect clarity is an impossibility. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
You exhibit the all too common psychosis of "words mean exactly what they mean", which is an obvious fallacy.

The nature of words is simply not that way.


[B]So the meaning of words are not identical with themselves? Meaning is use.

I believe in attempting to use words in a way that attempts to make my underlying meaning clearly comprehensible.

Yes,... meaning IS use. It is always contingent on context.

We agree on using words to get across our intended meaning. But one of the lovely things about words is that there is always room for "interpretation" and "misunderstanding".

And sometimes this "interpretation" and "misunderstanding" leads to unintended insight, so they are not always a bad thing.

Perfect clarity is an impossibility. :)


So what you're saying is that it DOES matter what the definition of the word "is" is...

Since obviously different "is"'s could exist depending on your intending meaning and the other party's "interpretation" or "misunderstanding" of it?

Clarity is sometimes a horrible thing...

[Siljhouettes #59]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Chomskyite rubbish

The ramblings of a demented linguist.

Go Leftists..!

I won't say that Chomsky gives unbiased accounts of history, but can you find me any outright lies in his work?

I'll leave that to the ever balanced and truthful you, good one...!

:)

..and make me a sandwich,... and knit me a sweater.. <Eric-Cartman-voice>

[Siljhouettes #59]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Chomskyite rubbish

The ramblings of a demented linguist.

Go Leftists..!

I won't say that Chomsky gives unbiased accounts of history, but can you find me any outright lies in his work?

I'll leave that to the ever balanced and truthful you, good one...!

:)

..and make me a sandwich,... and knit me a sweater.. <Eric-Cartman-voice>

No, since you made the accusation it's your job to come up with some examples.

[Niccolo Medici #65]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
You exhibit the all too common psychosis of "words mean exactly what they mean", which is an obvious fallacy.

The nature of words is simply not that way.


So the meaning of words are not identical with themselves? Meaning is use.

I believe in attempting to use words in a way that attempts to make my underlying meaning clearly comprehensible.

Yes,... meaning IS use. It is always contingent on context.

We agree on using words to get across our intended meaning. But one of the lovely things about words is that there is always room for "interpretation" and "misunderstanding".

And sometimes this "interpretation" and "misunderstanding" leads to unintended insight, so they are not always a bad thing.

Perfect clarity is an impossibility.


So what you're saying is that it DOES matter what the definition of the word "is" is...

Since obviously different "is"'s could exist depending on your intending meaning and the other party's "interpretation" or "misunderstanding" of it?

Clarity is sometimes a horrible thing...



Yes,... precisely..! :)

[B]QUESTION: "Your—that statement is a completely false statement. Whether or not Mr. Bennett knew of your relationship with Ms. Lewinsky, the statement that there was no sex of any kind in any manner, shape or form with President Clinton was an utterly false statement. Is that correct?"

CLINTON: "It depends upon what the meaning of the word is means. If is means 'is, and never has been', that's one thing. If it means, 'there is none', that was a completely true statement.

And the definition of "is", as in "is CLINTON being an evasive ass" has a very definite, yet entirely interpretive, meaning.

Yes,.. clarity can sometimes be much more non-useful than vaguery.