NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/478096.html

Reactions? Do you think this article and its depiction of "Israelis" and "Settlers" is accurate?

What about the prospects for an Israeli civil war? How likely do you think that is? Or do you think it's more likely that Sharon will simply keep putting off disengagement until he's out of office? Even if he does that, won't it simply fall to the next PM? Isn't someone going to have to do SOMETHING about the disengagement plan (which a clear majority of the state approves of) in the near future, and what do you think will happen then?

For many years, the two sides of Israel's politics were Leftwingers - Those who say giving up lands for peace is good, and Rightwingers - Who say exactly the opposite, and that Israel must keep the 'territories' (not always because of religious reasons, btw).

Since Sharon came with his plan, It changed. Now there are 3 sides:
Leftwingers - Those who support Sharon's plan without the wall, Rightwingers - Those who support the plan with the wall, and the newly added Settlers or Extreme rightwingers - Who say not a single settler should be evacuated no matter what.

I belong to the first group in both cases anyways, and everyday I see settlers on TV saying that they will do everything they can to stop the proccess, and threat that it may come to a civil-war.
A reporter asked one of the settlers: "Are you saying that if the disengagement plan is approved, people like me should get a gun?"
The settler didn't answer...

The world want to see results. "What about the disengagement?" "Why are they not moved already?", and nobody understands that this is a slow, slow proccess. Many of these fanatic people, who don't see themselfs as a problem, will kill themselfs before evacuating.

Most of Israeli people want the plan to start going, and the proccess has already started - The timetable was already set, and the the government is negotiating with the settler leaders. But untill you can see the actuall evacuation in your news reports, a long time will pass. The evacuation itself, according to the timetable, will start in spring of 2005, unless something too big happens (such as a terrorist mega-attack or something).

If Sharon does move to implement this plan, he might end up like Yitzak Rabin. Zionist extremists are just as bad as their islamic counterparts.

If Sharon does move to implement this plan, he might end up like Yitzak Rabin. Zionist extremists are just as bad as their islamic counterparts.

Perhaps. Many said so.
But I'm against calling them Zionist extremists. I call them simply religious extrimists, because I don't even want to think that they're Zionists. They're not.

Sharon and Arafat have not distinguished themselves, Araft is old and Frail, Sharon is old and clueless on the next step. he needs to learn from lyndon Johnson on how to deal with the parliament

Sharon and Arafat have not distinguished themselves, Araft is old and Frail, Sharon is old and clueless on the next step. he needs to learn from lyndon Johnson on how to deal with the parliament

I have tried to explain the differences between a parliamentary system and a division of powers system, but apparently you didn't understand how very difference these systems are. A Prime Minister (what Sharon is) is NOT independent of the legislature. He is only Prime Minister because they *made* him Prime Minister, and they can unmake him whenever they want and replace him with someone more receptive to their ideas. Is Sharon afraid of upsetting his party? Damn straight. If he weren't he'd be out of office right now and someone even worse (read: more under the control of the parliament) would be in. Johnson was a President, he was independent of Congress and therefore had real power that was separate from Congress's power. He could actually coerce Congress into doing things without fear that he would lose office over it.

My limited understanding is that Sharon's Likud Party barely has enough coalition votes to carry a majority in the Knesset anymore. It seems that were he to try to do anything with the settlers, he would lose a no confidence vote. Am I correct in saying this? Does Yachad support Likud, and if so, does it carry enough weight to amount to anything? Would Labour stand against or for Likud proposals?

Ariel Sharon should create some more noise in the parliament, he doesn't attempt to get his idea, look at lyndon johnson, he was know to shout at his party members to vote for his proposal, ariel sharon should create some support from his grassroots

People! The plan passed! A while ago! The vote is not the problem, so stop focusing on that!
That problem is the people who live in these area that Sharon want to move. The people themselves, those who think that Tel Aviv is same as Netzrim (meaning they think giving up the Gaza Strip is giving up Israel).
They are fanatics, and sooner or later, the IDF or the police force, when one of those come to evacuate them, will have to use force.
The real problem, is what happens when they will...

I have tried to explain the differences between a parliamentary system and a division of powers system, but apparently you didn't understand how very difference these systems are. A Prime Minister (what Sharon is) is NOT independent of the legislature. He is only Prime Minister because they *made* him Prime Minister, and they can unmake him whenever they want and replace him with someone more receptive to their ideas. Is Sharon afraid of upsetting his party? Damn straight. If he weren't he'd be out of office right now and someone even worse (read: more under the control of the parliament) would be in. Johnson was a President, he was independent of Congress and therefore had real power that was separate from Congress's power. He could actually coerce Congress into doing things without fear that he would lose office over it.

Thank you for clearing that for the others. I didn't want to explain it all myself. :P

People! The plan passed! A while ago! The vote is not the problem, so stop focusing on that!
That problem is the people who live in these area that Sharon want to move. The people themselves, those who think that Tel Aviv is same as Netzrim (meaning they think giving up the Gaza Strip is giving up Israel).
They are fanatics, and sooner or later, the IDF or the police force, when one of those come to evacuate them, will have to use force.
The real problem, is what happens when they will...
Why are they so obsessed w/Tel Aviv? The city is not even a century old if I'm not wrong

Why are they so obsessed w/Tel Aviv? The city is not even a century old if I'm not wrong

Corret, it was founded in 1909.
They're obsessed with it because it represents the center of Israeli culture.
They mean that if the government gives up a place like Netzrim, they'll have nothing preventing them from giving up Tel Aviv.
So practically they say the settlements in Gaza strip and the West Bank are much more important to keep.
But that's what they say, and I'm happy they're not in power...

I hope the Pope that supported the crusades would be happy with the trouble he has caused in these regions. I believe muslims and Jew were living there in peace with some little friction before some religious extremists came up with the crusade to convert muslim, instead this look like it has backfired on both jews and muslims.

Does any one think both sides should compromise and give up some of their claims.

If Sharon does move to implement this plan, he might end up like Yitzak Rabin. Zionist extremists are just as bad as their islamic counterparts.
They aren't Zionist extremist, as anyone who believes that the Jews should have Israel as a nation is a Zionist, so technically all political parties in Israel and even the US are Zionists as they all support the Israeli state.

The chances of a Civil War are slim. There are legislative elections soon and you will see a divide between Likud and Labor again, with Labor gaining some seats, but still a Likud majority. I'd expect Netanyahu to win in the next PM election. Israel won't have a Civil War. I don't see any scenario of it happening. Any disagreements will be settled on the floor of the Knesset, not with a war in Israel.

If there is a civil war, it'll be very lopsided. As in all societies, those that follow terror are a minority. More likely, and probably more scary, is that we are seing a Jewish al-Qaeda forming. Think about it: radical rabbis are calling for a theocracy, and settlers will fight to the death to hold onto their lands. As Israel has drafted men and women for years, all of the members probably have army experience, and they are probably able to steal weapons from the IDF. If I were Sharon, I'd have these rabbis arrested the next time they mention violence, and order the IDF to disband the settlements by any means necessary. If these guys get back into Israel, they can be watched, especially as Israel has elevated security to an art form.

What is anyone solution to this problem, i think palestine should get Gaza and West bank jerusalem should be shared by both because great muslims and jews were buried there

What is anyone solution to this problem, i think palestine should get Gaza and West bank jerusalem should be shared by both because great muslims and jews were buried there

That was already proposed once by the Israelis. The Palestinians refused the deal. Next suggestion?

The Demolition of the Barrier, and removal of most illegal Jewish Settlement. the disbandedment of hamas, and Palestine to become a Multi-party state monitored by the U.N. And Arafat should condemn attacks on both Isreal and Palestine and stop begging for mercy