NationStates Jolt Archive

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat and was for distribution of all wealth.

She felt deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican which she expressed openly. One day she was challenging her father on his beliefs and his opposition to higher taxes on the rich & the addition of more government welfare programs. Based on the lectures that she had participated in and the occasional chat with a professor she felt that for years her father had obviously harbored an evil, even selfish desire to keep what he thought should be his.

The self professed objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she indicated so to her father.

He stopped her and asked her point blank, how she was doing in school. She answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it was tough to maintain. That she studied all the time, never had time to go out and party like other people she knew.

She didn’t even have time for a boyfriend and didn’t really have many college friends because of spending all her time studying.

That she was taking a more difficult curriculum.

Her father listened and then asked, “How is your good friend Mary doing?”

She replied, “Mary is barely getting by.” She continued, “She barely has a 2.0 GPA,” adding, “and all she takes are easy classes and she never studies.” “But Mary is so very popular on campus, college for her is a blast, she goes to all the parties all the time and very often doesn’t even show up for classes because she is too hung over.”

Her father then asked his daughter, “Why don’t you go to the Dean’s office and ask him to deduct a 1.0 off your 4.0 GPA and give it to your friend who only has a 2.0.” He continued, “That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a fair and equal distribution of GPA.”

The daughter visibly shocked by her father’s suggestion angrily fired back, “That wouldn’t be fair! I worked really hard for mine, I did without help and Mary has done little or nothing, she played while I worked real hard!”

The father slowly smiled, winked and said, “Welcome to the Republican Party”

1) are you ignorant people going to post this at the beginning of every month

2) of COURSE the apples arn't orange, they are apples, not oranges, GEEZ.

So what you're saying is that Republican women can't find boyfriends?

So what you're saying is that Republican women can't find boyfriends?
lmfao.

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.

So what you're saying is that Republican women can't find boyfriends?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha

True.

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.
Welcome to the Republican logic process!

:D
So what you're saying is that Republican women can't find boyfriends?

Easily the BEST reply I coulda come up with!

thankyouthankyouthankyou
I'll be here all week. Try the veal! Be nice to your waitresses--they're working hard for you.

Really, that was about the level of reply the "story" deserved, I thought.

Welcome to the Republican logic process!
lol

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.
Well lets see here . . .
An income tax taxes your income and uses it to pay someone else. That means that the money you went out and earned last week is being taken away from you and being given to someone else who didn't go out and earn it last week.
Understand me?

Generally, the theory is that it goes to someone else who couldn't work last week. Just because a system isnt' perfect doesn't mean it should be vilified.

So, a) I don't mind helping the people who need help who I have to share the world with, and b) income tax goes for other things besides welfare.

Well lets see here . . .
An income tax taxes your income and uses it to pay someone else. That means that the money you went out and earned last week is being taken away from you and being given to someone else who didn't go out and earn it last week.
Understand me?If only that actually happened, then you might have an argument, but considering that you could not have earned the money you did without taking advantage of the stability and security that the government provides and without making use of the considerable investment government has put into infrastructure, well, you owe a considerably larger debt to the government than you could ever possibly pay. And the amount that gets redistributed to the very poorest among us is a pittance in comparison to the amount you get back in government services.

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.

The girl worked hard to earn her grades. Rich people work hard to earn their money. Those that don't want to put in the work do worse. Hard working people should not be forced to pay for the slackers.

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.
Person A works 40 hours a week, making X ammount of dollars.
Person B does no work at all.

How is the A getting paid for work done equals "unequal distribution of wealth"?

Generally, the theory is that it goes to someone else who couldn't work last week. Just because a system isnt' perfect doesn't mean it should be vilified.

So, a) I don't mind helping the people who need help who I have to share the world with, and b) income tax goes for other things besides welfare.

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.

The girl worked hard to earn her grades. Rich people work hard to earn their money. Those that don't want to put in the work do worse. Hard working people should not be forced to pay for the slackers.

Take a course in sociology. Not everyone who is poor is not hard working.

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.
Says who? You? And how did you come to be so wise in these matters? [/sarcasm]

Person A works 40 hours a week, making X ammount of dollars.
Person B does no work at all.

How is the A getting paid for work done equals "unequal distribution of wealth"?
Person A works 40 hours a week, stuck in a minimum wage position because of inequal social conditions.
Person B works 20-30 hours a week, because he's rich and white and had everything handed to him.



You know why most socities fell? Because of the extreme gap between the rich and the poor. A society is only as great as its poorest member.

The girl worked hard to earn her grades. Rich people work hard to earn their money. Those that don't want to put in the work do worse. Hard working people should not be forced to pay for the slackers.
Yes, I'm sure Paris Hilton works very hard screwing everyone she wants.

On the other hand, John Smith, who was denied an adequate education due to the area that he lived in, and now works at Walmart earning barely minimum wage to provide barely enough food to keep his family alive, is very lazy.

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.
Show me. Show me, without using Heratio Alger mythology or personal ancedote, why that's a crock.

To be fair, I'll start off with why I think it isn't. Here. (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/SI_Kozol_StLouis.html)

Person A works 40 hours a week, stuck in a minimum wage position because of inequal social conditions.
Person B works 20-30 hours a week, because he's rich and white and had everything handed to him.



You know why most socities fell? Because of the extreme gap between the rich and the poor. A society is only as great as its poorest member.
You did not address my scenario.

In your scenario, I would suggest that Person A work harder, and smarter.

The girl worked hard to earn her grades. Rich people work hard to earn their money. Those that don't want to put in the work do worse. Hard working people should not be forced to pay for the slackers.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
*breath*
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.
not a majority perhaps but close to it, you want to guess the percent of WORKING poor in this country

and guess what, your money already goes to pay for things other than your own ass

You did not address my scenario. Yeah I did, with my second paragraph. Society must take care of its own - if person B can't work, he/she needs to be helped. Yes, there are lazy people who squelch off welfare and ruin the system for the rest of them, but that's a reason to improve the system - not disband it.

In your scenario, I would suggest that Person A work harder, and smarter.Impossible if society refuses to give them the tools to do so. You act like you know the condition of Person A and that he/she is fully capable of working harder/smarter.

You did not address my scenario.

In your scenario, I would suggest that Person A work harder, and smarter.

If in that scenario, Person A would more than likely be anuneducated individual if s/he's working in a minimum paying job.

The girl worked hard to earn her grades. Rich people work hard to earn their money. Those that don't want to put in the work do worse. Hard working people should not be forced to pay for the slackers.

I agree 100%! People need to work hard for what they earn. It should not be a handout! That is what the father was implying. When he asked her point blank if she would go to the dean and have him deduct 1.0 off her gpa and give it to her best friend, she defended what she has earned.

I attend a university and I don't go to parties. I study all the time and I'm barely getting by all thanks to one damn class that lowered my GPA! However, I know it was my fault and now, I am doing better in that class. Good things come to those that work hard to get anywhere. Welcome to the Real World!

Good things come to those that work hard to get anywhere. Welcome to the Real World!Good things more often come to those who were born into the right connections. That's not to demean hard work--I've worked hard and earned everything I've gotten and done so with no help from family or connections--it's just a statement about the real world.

Ask yourself this--if George W. Bush's father hadn't been a powerful politician and Yale alumnus, would he have gotten into Yale? Would he have gotten into the Texas Air National Guard? Would he have gotten into Harvard's MBA program? Or gotten the seed money for any of the businesses he ran into the ground? Would he today be President of the US if he'd been born into a poor family? Careful how you answer--your future credibility may be at stake here.

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.
While you are saying that a majority of people who need government support don't actually try to get jobs. That is just a crock. Now let me, unlike you, give reasons why:

It's hard to get a well paying job when you can't afford college. I hardly think that Mr. A, who comes from a rich family, that had the money to send him to college, all he had to do was get the grades to get in. Mr. B however, can from a poor family, and for any hope of going to college, he had to spend most of his time working. Unfortunately, this meant that his grades dropped from too much work. Needless to say, the college wasn't impressed and he has to work minimum wage at Burger King. You should have figured out that Mr.B worked hard, while Mr. A although wasn't necessarily lazy, he didn't work nearly as much as Mr B.

Think about this too, hard work isn't only mental, it's also being able to take the physical strain of work. So if this is true, then why aren't commercial fishermen (most dangerous job in the world, no joke), firemen, and people who work in the military filthy rich?

And exihibit C: Paris Hilton. No more needs to be said about that.

I honestly think that it should be mandated for everyone to take a course in sociology, just general sociology. I mean, the Horatio Alger Rags-to-Riches stories don't normally happen. Sure, they do happen now and then, but do you all think that hard work and ambition is going to guarantee you success?

Good things more often come to those who were born into the right connections. That's not to demean hard work--I've worked hard and earned everything I've gotten and done so with no help from family or connections--it's just a statement about the real world.

Ask yourself this--if George W. Bush's father hadn't been a powerful politician and Yale alumnus, would he have gotten into Yale? Would he have gotten into the Texas Air National Guard? Would he have gotten into Harvard's MBA program? Or gotten the seed money for any of the businesses he ran into the ground? Would he today be President of the US if he'd been born into a poor family? Careful how you answer--your future credibility may be at stake here.


Damn. Beat me to it.

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many others her age she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat and was for distribution of all wealth....

The father slowly smiled, winked and said, “Welcome to the Republican Party”
Your "story" only talks about economic issues. Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with it. If she is liberal and deregulation is right, surely she should join the Libertarians?

I completely agree with the original poster of this topic. Here's a story about my dad:

My dad was born at the end of WW2 in a small town in Louisiana. Life was hard. His mom was a school teacher and his father worked for the government. His parents worked hard though, they gave him as good a life as they could and were always there to be good parents for him. They had only saved up enough money to provide for some of his college expenses. So ya know what he did? He took out som loans and he got a job. He worked hard at LSU in pre-med. After college he went to medical school (more loans and a little support from family). After med. school he became a psychiatrist(sp). For awhile he was not making much money and still had to pay off loans. However his life got steadily better. Now he has his own practice and he supports a family of five. He is putting his kids through college so they can have the oppurtunities he had without that work. And ya know what? He'll be damned if he is going to give any more of his money to some slacker who never made anything of themselves because of laziness.

My sister's fiancee(sp) is working to get his MBA. Its hard work. He goes to work during the day and school at night. But he is doind it so that he can support his family.

You see the American dream holds true today. If you WORK HARD at anything then you can do it. I have no sympathy for the minimum wage worker because they can do more than that.

you know, a lot of bitching an whining could be stopped if we nixed this whole graduated income tax thing and went with a flat percentage and let the IRS hound loose to find the people who are screwing the govenrment out of their money.

My father worked hard for a very long time in his job at 3M, several years of dedication to his job, and investment went into it. We bearly scratched by with what he made, but we were alright.

Then, the day Bush was inaugurated, he eerily predicted, "I'll be out of a job soon.". The next year, he was right. Out of a job, thanks to the Conservative government allowing his job go to someone over seas (not saying that person didn't deserve it, but s/he should have gotten it without expense to American tax payers.) and 3M's stock steadily fell. All our family's investment and his hard work was for naught.

Is that fair?

You are going on the theory that the majority of people who need government support need it for reasons beyond their control. That is just a crock.Actually, it's true. Not to say that nobody abuses the system, but social welfare is necessary. Do you really have so little care for the well-being of your fellow countrymen?

My father worked hard for a very long time in his job at 3M, several years of dedication to his job, and investment went into it. We bearly scratched by with what he made, but we were alright.

Then, the day Bush was inaugurated, he eerily predicted, "I'll be out of a job soon.". The next year, he was right. Out of a job, thanks to the Conservative government allowing his job go to someone over seas (not saying that person didn't deserve it, but s/he should have gotten it without expense to American tax payers.) and 3M's stock steadily fell. All our family's investment and his hard work was for naught.

Is that fair?
While I feel for your situation, fairness has nothing to do with it.
To use a quote here...
Life isnt fair. Anyone who says different is selling something.

As for your fathers job at 3M, the tech bubble bursting was hardly the fault of Bush, or Clinton for that matter. It was merely a matter of time.

Hard work, and smart work can and do lead to the "american dream".

I completely agree with the original poster of this topic. Here's a story about my dad: ...

... My sister's fiancee(sp) is working to get his MBA. Its hard work. He goes to work during the day and school at night. But he is doind it so that he can support his family.

You see the American dream holds true today. If you WORK HARD at anything then you can do it. I have no sympathy for the minimum wage worker because they can do more than that.

First of all its more like your Dad's story, not yours. But, wow...such...a closed minded person you are. So you're saying that some one who is born homeless has the exact equal chance of earning what someone who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth? I don't think so dude. Sorry, just doesn't happen too often. People don't usually move through different social classes anyways.

And saying everyone can get rich is completely off base, that's working off the implication that everyone is ambitious, has the same goals, has the same education. You can't possibly tell me that a inner-city school of San Francisco or some other dilapidated facility could compare to a charter upper class private one.

While I feel for your situation, fairness has nothing to do with it.
To use a quote here...
Life isnt fair. Anyone who says different is selling something.

As for your fathers job at 3M, the tech bubble bursting was hardly the fault of Bush, or Clinton for that matter. It was merely a matter of time.

Hard work, and smart work can and do lead to the "american dream".

Hey now, my father didn't give up. He started his own business with a friend who was also out of a job. He makes signs, and it's actually a very lucrative business. He can make upwards of $1,000 on truck lettering jobs. And the materials for that same job only cost a rough total of ten dollars. Maybe less. It's the time and effort that make the job expensive.

He's a very hard worker, and has never given up. But we still bearly scratch by. We work hard, harder than many business men do now. We've never done anything to anyone. All I ask for is a little assitance in our time of need. Is that really too much to ask?

No Im not saying that the playing field is level for everyone. It wasn't level for my dad. I'm saying that he worked hard to become who he is today. Of course people born into wealth have a better chance. On the school issue. I dont know how much you know about Louisiana but the schools aren't top noch there.

But your right that not everyone is ambitious. The people who aren't ambitious didn't make it in life. Ambition is a good thing. Its motivation. if you don't have some level of ambition your not going to succeed.

what does the tech bubble burst have to do with 3M?

they make alot of non-tech stuff

Explain to me how a system that gives grades to those perfectly deserving of them is the same as a socialist system advocating the spread of unequal distribution of wealth.

Money is best spent by those who have earnt it. It is true that I could earn more money in the short term by going on the dole instead of staying on the student allowance, but I would rather not be stuck with a dead-end job future.
If you take the time and effort to do the work, you deserve the reward that comes with it, you don't deserve to have your hard efforts sponged away by moaning bludgers.

what does the tech bubble burst have to do with 3M?

they make alot of non-tech stuff
:rolleyes:
3M is a company that was hit by the tech bubble. As such it had to look at itself and try to come up with stratagies to make itself more viable to it's shareholders. One of those statagies, unfortunately, was the outsourcing of jobs overseas.

I thought you had me on ignore btw.

But your right that not everyone is ambitious. The people who aren't ambitious didn't make it in life. Ambition is a good thing. Its motivation. if you don't have some level of ambition your not going to succeed.
Ambition isn't always the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's started wars, it's caused depression (1929), it's caused corruption. Ambition isn't always a good thing. Only in moderation. But, yeah, so you're saying that those who are born in to wealth, and don't work for it have a right to that wealth, while someone who may need a fraction of that to eek out an existence and provide for his/her family while they are working they're ass off at 40 hours a week? Not everyone has access to college. Not everyone has access to well paying jobs, and it isn't always THEIR fault, many times it is a result of the social forces that they have no control over.

Ambition isn't always the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's started wars, it's caused depression (1929), it's caused corruption. Ambition isn't always a good thing. Only in moderation. But, yeah, so you're saying that those who are born in to wealth, and don't work for it have a right to that wealth, while someone who may need a fraction of that to eek out an existence and provide for his/her family while they are working they're ass off at 40 hours a week? Not everyone has access to college. Not everyone has access to well paying jobs, and it isn't always THEIR fault, many times it is a result of the social forces that they have no control over.
Everyone in this country has access to higher education. Everyone has access to well paying jobs.
No, it's not always their fault, take that one story about the mans father losing his job to overseas.
But then, it's not my fault either.

Do republicans really believe that inheriting money is hard work? I sincerely hope not. No one can be that stupid.

Generally, the theory is that it goes to someone else who couldn't work last week. Just because a system isnt' perfect doesn't mean it should be vilified.

So, a) I don't mind helping the people who need help who I have to share the world with, and b) income tax goes for other things besides welfare.

Well, in my country the only people who couldn't work are sick, invalids, artists or people who stay out in the sticks.
There are certain places where there is no work and it's cheap to live, but on the whole the majority of unemployed are only unemployed for less than 2 years.
In my country (new zealand) 32.6% of all tax goes to welfare and only 2.4 % to police, you could easily say the true cost of welfare is a third of tax.
I deserve a tax cut, I would far prefer job insurance to replace the bulk of welfare and that way I could save plenty more for retirement, holidays or whatever I want.

Do republicans really believe that inheriting money is hard work? I sincerely hope not. No one can be that stupid.
well if you believe accepting homosexuality will cause the human race to die out..

Everyone in this country has access to higher education. Everyone has access to well paying jobs.
No, it's not always their fault, take that one story about the mans father losing his job to overseas.
But then, it's not my fault either.
Not everyone, TheOneRule. It's true that access to higher education is pretty good in the US, but it's not all-encompassing, especially if you were, shall we say, irresponsible when you were young. It's one of those theory versus practice issues--theoretically, everyone has access to higher education, while in practice there are thousands, if not millions who will never be able to access it.

And as to high-paying jobs, well, no--not everyone has access to those, even if they do have a good education. In some places, there simply aren't any to be had, or the supply has so outstripped the demand that those high paying jobs become lower paying jobs.

Yea just wanted to comment that this is a good discussion that we got going. No flaming or anything. Lets keep it that way :)

Anything you pay for with money, you get something, right? Well, when you "pay" the government, you are provided schools, police, and heres a favorite for the Republicans, we get to go to war!

IMO, I'd rather have everyone the right to an education than a shiny new sports car.

Not everyone, TheOneRule. It's true that access to higher education is pretty good in the US, but it's not all-encompassing, especially if you were, shall we say, irresponsible when you were young. It's one of those theory versus practice issues--theoretically, everyone has access to higher education, while in practice there are thousands, if not millions who will never be able to access it.

And as to high-paying jobs, well, no--not everyone has access to those, even if they do have a good education. In some places, there simply aren't any to be had, or the supply has so outstripped the demand that those high paying jobs become lower paying jobs.
Irresponsible when they were young huh?... well in that case I believe that those "youngsters" are responsible for the consequences of their "indescretions".

From my personal situation I can say that everyone in the US has access to both higher education, and high paying jobs. And they can have that higher education paid for by the government.

All it takes is a high school diploma or a GED. Join the military. With a 6 year commitment anyone can have nearly $50,000 for college, plus any number of other means for paying for college. They even let you take time out of your enlistment to finish college and get a comission if one were so inclined.

The US Navy has jobs that train people for some of the most lucrative jobs in the civilian market. Network administrators, engineering of most diciplines, medical. Just about anything one wants to do, the navy has a rating for.

And enlistment is open to anyone 18-34, male or female, regardless of race color or religion.

Wether someone earned it or not is not the point. The point of it is its THEIR OWN MONEY not someone elses. And USUALLY the smarter you are and the harder you work the more money you make. And do NOT tell me that if your poor you can't go to be rich and sucessful. There is scholarships avadiable if your smart enough and if your to lazy to seize oppurtunity to bad you can just frot in the gutter for all I care.

Wether someone earned it or not is not the point. The point of it is its THEIR OWN MONEY not someone elses. And USUALLY the smarter you are and the harder you work the more money you make. And do NOT tell me that if your poor you can't go to be rich and sucessful. There is scholarships avadiable if your smart enough and if your to lazy to seize oppurtunity to bad you can just frot in the gutter for all I care.
you want to know a good question

why should anyone care what YOU say? you are obviously ignorantly biased

My family and I do not have the same opportunities in America because of the color of our skin. We are Latin American, and in many ways, we get it worse than African Americans.

The first day I went to school, in the registration office, my mother was told that they would have to run a language test on me. When my mother questioned their reason, the woman in the office said, "Well... It depends on how much spanish you speak at home."

My parents never spoke spanish at home. They've forgot how to speak it for the most part. Yet still, we are profiled as Mexicans who probably illegally immagrated to America, who speak broken english, and mostly incomprehensible spanish. (Note: My family was brought here by the good Mr. King [Who became a close friend of my great grandfather], one of the first owners of the large King Ranch that today extends from Kingsvile Texas to Flordia.)

What gives a person the right to say that because I am brown, that I am somehow diffrent? My mother doesn't get paid as much as she should because she's not white, and is obviously a female. My dad never got paid as much as he worked for, because he is not white. And I will get the same treatment if I work for a large business.

I am definitely one of the smartest people in this tiny hick town in south central Texas. I have great potential, to the point where my teachers have nearly been in tears because at times, I haven't seen my potential. But that potential will never be as great as it could be if I could be white.

Again, Not everyone has the same opportunities (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/SI_Kozol_StLouis.html) (follow the link). The flaw in the initial argument is the premise that the option is blanket redistribution of wealth. That is a faulty assessment, it is gauranteeing the access and providing a net so if something does change in the economy (our friend with the 3M story) those who have worked hard don't fall through the cracks.

Look, you can't 'earn' all that wealth you believe you so richly deserve without society, and without society insuring that as many as it's members are able to participate. Welfare is not a gravy train. It never has been. The exception does not ruin the whole. You can't in one breath say everyone gets what they deserve and in another shrug off those who have worked hard who lose what they have because of a shifting market they have no control of with "No one said life was fair." You contain your own counter-argument.

The US Navy has jobs that train people for some of the most lucrative jobs in the civilian market. Network administrators, engineering of most diciplines, medical. Just about anything one wants to do, the navy has a rating for.

And enlistment is open to anyone 18-34, male or female, regardless of race color or religion.

cept for gay people

cept for gay people
You forget Clintons single accomplishment for the US Military.

Dont ask, dont tell.

Gays are allowed in the military.

You forget Clintons single accomplishment for the US Military.

Dont ask, dont tell.

Gays are allowed in the military.

they should try that with skin colour too. think it would work?

Irresponsible when they were young huh?... well in that case I believe that those "youngsters" are responsible for the consequences of their "indescretions".Here's where the income disparity comes into play. Let me start by saying that I'm talking about drug convictions, even for possession, which remove the possibility for financial aid for college. If you're poor, and you get busted, and you have a conviction, the only way you can qualify for student aid is to be pardoned. That's it--a one strike and you're out policy.

Most judges will allow a person to dodge that conviction on a first offense--if they go to rehab. But rehab isn't free, and if you're already dirt poor, it isn't an option, so you wind up with the conviction and almost no chance at college. And I haven't even gotten into the racial disparity element at play here.

But if your parents have money--even middle class here--they can usually get you into some kind of program that will keep your record--and your aid options--clean and open. Not to mention that if your family is middle class, they will likely be able to help at least a little bit with college. So the options aren't truly open to everyone.

From my personal situation I can say that everyone in the US has access to both higher education, and high paying jobs. And they can have that higher education paid for by the government.

All it takes is a high school diploma or a GED. Join the military. With a 6 year commitment anyone can have nearly $50,000 for college, plus any number of other means for paying for college. They even let you take time out of your enlistment to finish college and get a comission if one were so inclined.

The US Navy has jobs that train people for some of the most lucrative jobs in the civilian market. Network administrators, engineering of most diciplines, medical. Just about anything one wants to do, the navy has a rating for.

And enlistment is open to anyone 18-34, male or female, regardless of race color or religion.What you say about the military is accurate--it is an option--unless your religious background forbids violence or unless you have some sort of physical disability that precludes you from serving. That's a smaller subset, admittedly, but it is a group that exists nonetheless. Then there's also the whole potential for dying in an unnecessary war thing to factor in, not to mention the potential for being stop-lossed back into duty even when your hitch is up.

Here's where the income disparity comes into play. Let me start by saying that I'm talking about drug convictions, even for possession, which remove the possibility for financial aid for college. If you're poor, and you get busted, and you have a conviction, the only way you can qualify for student aid is to be pardoned. That's it--a one strike and you're out policy.

Most judges will allow a person to dodge that conviction on a first offense--if they go to rehab. But rehab isn't free, and if you're already dirt poor, it isn't an option, so you wind up with the conviction and almost no chance at college. And I haven't even gotten into the racial disparity element at play here.

But if your parents have money--even middle class here--they can usually get you into some kind of program that will keep your record--and your aid options--clean and open. Not to mention that if your family is middle class, they will likely be able to help at least a little bit with college. So the options aren't truly open to everyone.

What you say about the military is accurate--it is an option--unless your religious background forbids violence or unless you have some sort of physical disability that precludes you from serving. That's a smaller subset, admittedly, but it is a group that exists nonetheless. Then there's also the whole potential for dying in an unnecessary war thing to factor in, not to mention the potential for being stop-lossed back into duty even when your hitch is up.

US Military can and does pay for college for many many of it's servicemembers. So that whole drug posession thing doesnt apply in this case.

Regardless of the reason someone choses not to go into the military, the choice is still there.
As for physically or mentally handicapped people, there are programs already inplace that support and promote handicapped to achieve their potential.

I stand by my statement that everyone has access to higher education.

US Military can and does pay for college for many many of it's servicemembers. So that whole drug posession thing doesnt apply in this case.

Regardless of the reason someone choses not to go into the military, the choice is still there.
As for physically or mentally handicapped people, there are programs already inplace that support and promote handicapped to achieve their potential.

I stand by my statement that everyone has access to higher education.

I don't necessarily disagree that everyone has access - but not everyone wants higher education, and not everyone fits into a higher education system. There are other options in life - but some intellectual and financial elite has decided that it is the only viable option for success.

Wether someone earned it or not is not the point. The point of it is its THEIR OWN MONEY not someone elses. And USUALLY the smarter you are and the harder you work the more money you make. And do NOT tell me that if your poor you can't go to be rich and sucessful. There is scholarships avadiable if your smart enough and if your to lazy to seize oppurtunity to bad you can just frot in the gutter for all I care.
So, when a child is born into modest circumstances we should test them to check for intelligence, ambition, creativity, et all and those who score too lowly should ROT IN THE GUTTER? Josef would be so proud of you. Do you hear that? Yes, its the echoes of eugenics past.

US Military can and does pay for college for many many of it's servicemembers. So that whole drug posession thing doesnt apply in this case.

Regardless of the reason someone choses not to go into the military, the choice is still there.
As for physically or mentally handicapped people, there are programs already inplace that support and promote handicapped to achieve their potential.

I stand by my statement that everyone has access to higher education.
Will the military take you if you have a felony conviction? You're probably in a better position to answer that than I am.

Will the military take you if you have a felony conviction? You're probably in a better position to answer that than I am.
Yes they will... as my recuiter told me, there's a waiver for everything.
It's a lot harder, but it's possible.

Yes they will... as my recuiter told me, there's a waiver for everything.
It's a lot harder, but it's possible.
I'll bet those waivers are going to be a lot easier to come by in the coming couple of years, considering the trouble the military is having with current recruitment and retaining current personnel.

I stand by my statement that everyone has access to higher education.
Then you haven't read the link (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/SI_Kozol_StLouis.html)
-and-
there is no public program to help people with flat feet, or heart palpitations, or some other otherwise minor condition that would preclude service.

Incertonia, you are probably very very correct there.

Then you haven't read the link (http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World_US/SI_Kozol_StLouis.html)
-and-
there is no public program to help people with flat feet, or heart palpitations, or some other otherwise minor condition that would preclude service.

No, but those otherwise minor conditions do not preclude all service either. I have seen many people in the navy with flat feet (the thinking is that the navy never had to march anywhere) and one of my best friends in boot camp had a heart murmer.

Incertonia, you are probably very very correct there.



No, but those otherwise minor conditions do not preclude all service either. I have seen many people in the navy with flat feet (the thinking is that the navy never had to march anywhere) and one of my best friends in boot camp had a heart murmer.
I'm not going to argue access to military because I would be arguing from too much a position of ignorance-I am not a military-phile, but I have seen people denied access to the military.

There is the moral question that all societies have had of sending their poor to die to benifit the rich...but that's a whole other thread.

However, now adress the link.

Even though I myself belong to the Republican party, that still doesn't change the fact that this thread sucks.