NationStates Jolt Archive

These videotaped beheadings that are being "aired" on islamic fundamentalist websites, are they hurting or helping the cause that those same fundamentalists seem to be espousing?

The real victims here (besides the innocent beheaded men and their families) are Muslims. They've allowed this to happen in the name of their religion. If they want a holy war, they can continue being silent. If they don't want to face eradication, they'll speak up and take back their faith.

Right now it's a war on terrorism, but it's on the brink of becoming much more than that.

It is funny though. For a religion that states it is peaceful and all that good stuff, why do the leaders not speak up against these acts of evil. Maybe because they are all for these acts. Do these people enjoy seeing terrorists in Russia killing children, which included stabbing to death them when they ran out of ammo. If they remain silent, then I say they are in cahoots. :sniper:

I don't see how these murders can help anyone. Killing people isn't justified and this is no exception. It just makes people hate the terrorists more as absolutely nothing is accomplished. They don't even get their demands met!

It is funny though. For a religion that states it is peaceful and all that good stuff, why do the leaders not speak up against these acts of evil. Maybe because they are all for these acts. Do these people enjoy seeing terrorists in Russia killing children, which included stabbing to death them when they ran out of ammo. If they remain silent, then I say they are in cahoots. :sniper:

They do speak up. There's no central prominent figure like the Pope to act as the singular voice of the religion, so when it happens, it's less visible.
I can recall a number of instances, particularily after the first beheading, where councils of Islamic leaders across the world spoke up and denounced the action.

They don't even get their demands met!Hey, the Philippines left. That's something.

For a religion that states it is peaceful and all that good stuff, why do the leaders not speak up against these acts of evil. Maybe because they are all for these acts. Do these people enjoy seeing terrorists in Russia killing children, which included stabbing to death them when they ran out of ammo. If they remain silent, then I say they are in cahoots.That's illogical, unfair, and false. Any real Muslim will tell you that they condemn these barbaric acts and that these extremist groups represent Islam no more than Bush represents Christianity.

They don't even get their demands met!

The Spanish surrendered too....these "people" are just killing for killings sake. They have ceased being human and are now feral creatures that will be killed themselves in time.

Of course it helps them, the terrorist groupes get attention and admiration from violent and radical Muslims, and thus status and more members, that it hurts the cause of majority of Muslims is nothing that they care about.

Hey, the Philippines left. That's something.
Well, the Philippines aren't exactly a military powerhouse. They probably evacuated less than 100 people.

It is funny though. For a religion that states it is peaceful and all that good stuff, why do the leaders not speak up against these acts of evil. Maybe because they are all for these acts. Do these people enjoy seeing terrorists in Russia killing children, which included stabbing to death them when they ran out of ammo. If they remain silent, then I say they are in cahoots. :sniper:
Or maybe...the principle behind terror being fear...the real, peace-loving Muslims are too afraid to speak up because the middle east is, in reality, mostly anarchistic and in control of whatever Islamic fundamentalist group just so happens to be around the area.
Why don't you go back to bleaching your white robe and hood?

Hey, the Philippines left. That's something.

That's illogical, unfair, and false. Any real Muslim will tell you that they condemn these barbaric acts and that these extremist groups represent Islam no more than Bush represents Christianity.
While any "real" Muslim might tell you that... there just seems to be a lack of Muslim "Leaders" coming out in public against these acts.
Is that because the media wont show those condemnations? Or is it because they arent being made? That I dont know.

That second post is indictive of the larger problem. Muslims are no more in charge of the radicals than christians are in charge of the Klan or people bombing abortion clinics.

The problem is neither side at this point is making any real effort to see things from the other point of view. ("Hate our freedom" anyone?) In thier world a beheading has a different connotation. Certainly they believe it is effective, though I don't think they have a notion of what effect it has overall. Certainly there has been limited success, some countries have pulled out in the wake of beheadings. But I don't believe that they have any real understanding of what effect they are having. Nor, does it seem, we have any real understanding of why they think that the only thing they have left is martyrdom.

While any "real" Muslim might tell you that... there just seems to be a lack of Muslim "Leaders" coming out in public against these acts.
Is that because the media wont show those condemnations? Or is it because they arent being made? That I dont know.

I've seen them, what news are you watching and what papers are you reading?

Hey, the Philippines left. That's something.

That's illogical, unfair, and false. Any real Muslim will tell you that they condemn these barbaric acts and that these extremist groups represent Islam no more than Bush represents Christianity.

Islam has always been spread by the sword. During the Caliphate, most of Eastern Europe was given the choice to convert or die. Why do you think there are so many followers of Islam living in what use to be Yugoslavia? Osama ben Laden is one of those who advocate establishment of a new Caliphate, with infidels, Jews and Christians once again given the choice to convert and live under the new Caliphate, or die.

At base, what we are seeing is a resurgence through terrorism of the ancient admonition of the Prophet to convert all the world to Islam.

The problem is neither side at this point is making any real effort to see things from the other point of view. ("Hate our freedom" anyone?)
As far as I understand, if you suggest possible motives for terrorism in American, it is tantamount to justifying it - and thus you "hate America" as well.

Or maybe...the principle behind terror being fear...the real, peace-loving Muslims are too afraid to speak up because the middle east is, in reality, mostly anarchistic and in control of whatever Islamic fundamentalist group just so happens to be around the area.
Why don't you go back to bleaching your white robe and hood?

How were my comments racist? I'd like to know? I guess because I support our troops and the war, that makes me an evil, racist, warmongering, sexist, evil christian, voter disinfranchising, and idiotic republican. But tell you what, it is kind of hard to be someone like you who has their head in the sand. For that I feel sorry for you.

BTW if I was even in the Klan, which would be kind of tough as I was born in the Jewish faith but converted to Catholicism, I wouldn't be a boring white outfitted one. With my skills I'd be a Grand Wizard.

I've seen them, what news are you watching and what papers are you reading?
Rather than say you've seen them, perhaps you could post a link or three?

Hey, the Philippines left. That's something.

That's illogical, unfair, and false. Any real Muslim will tell you that they condemn these barbaric acts and that these extremist groups represent Islam no more than Bush represents Christianity.

They are Muslim, or haven't you heard them shout "Allah Akbar" or whatever when they are cutting the persons' head off.

The reason you don't hear Muslims speaking out is the lack of a centralized authority in the religion, like the Roman Catholic Church. While this is most certainly a benefit for Islam's followers, it can help radical factions like these promote their values and declare their vision as the ultimate one.

They are basically slef-proclaimed prophets, saying they "carry God's message" and "do God's will". Other figures that claimed they are executing God's will are Hitler and George W. Bush..

You can see where I'm heading... Both of these figures are idiots, and so are these radical Muslims.

I am a Muslim. I speak out against the vicious beheadings taking place in Iraq. Now, if the beheadings were of American Marines, I would not object at all.. Hell, I will even support them.. And don't give me the "They are soldiers doing their job" crap.. doesn't work anymore.. This is war, and in war people die..

Whereas the Americans prefer to use "Smart" (read: dumb) bombs and M-16s to execute their enemies, the Iraqis are resorting to very crude yet effective techniques, like beheadings. I don't have a problem with that.. In the end, both sides suffer losses.

And about the North Ossetta bombing, I have read a report broadcast by the Chechen rebel factions, that claims they were not responsible for the bombings, and condemns the "ruthless slaughter" of unarmed women and children.

I can gladly direct you to the report, but it is in Arabic, so you have to translate it yourselves.

I dont think these terrorists truely expect their demands to be met. If they did they wouldn't be doing this in a suicidal fashion. These people have bared witness to autrocities done in their countries, and they want those responsible to feel their pain, experience it for themselves.
In the middle east, european and american countries have on numerous occasions attempted to occupy, or silence certain groups or countries in the middle east. When doing so, MANY civillians have been killed as a result. The US and Europe is notorious for turning a blind eye to this fact.

The question you should ask yourself is, if another country invaded the US, (assuming thats where you live), killed your family, and many families in your community, left, and your country was told it never happened... what would you do to get even? I say I'd strike back. If I lost my family and friends, I'd get revenge... and I'd probably get myself killed in the process.
I probably wouldnt go after children... but civillians of the attacking country, yes.

How were my comments racist? I'd like to know? I guess because I support our troops and the war, that makes me an evil, racist, warmongering, sexist, evil christian, voter disinfranchising, and idiotic republican. But tell you what, it is kind of hard to be someone like you who has their head in the sand. For that I feel sorry for you.

BTW if I was even in the Klan, which would be kind of tough as I was born in the Jewish faith but converted to Catholicism, I wouldn't be a boring white outfitted one. With my skills I'd be a Grand Wizard.
The KKK is based off Christian Fundamentalism. They hated people not just because of race, but also because of religion. If you think other wise, you went to a shitty high school. Your comments weren't racist, but you implied that Muslims are hateful, violent people, which is untrue and shows your ignorance rather than mine. It is I who should feel sorry for you, and I do. Oh, and by the way, I'm glad that you also tried debunking my comments by implying that I don't support our troops. It's nice that you know exactly how I feel about the current military situation of our country based off my anti-prejudice reply to your highly prejudiced post.

The reason you don't hear Muslims speaking out is the lack of a centralized authority in the religion, like the Roman Catholic Church. While this is most certainly a benefit for Islam's followers, it can help radical factions like these promote their values and declare their vision as the ultimate one.

They are basically slef-proclaimed prophets, saying they "carry God's message" and "do God's will". Other figures that claimed they are executing God's will are Hitler and George W. Bush..

You can see where I'm heading... Both of these figures are idiots, and so are these radical Muslims.

I am a Muslim. I speak out against the vicious beheadings taking place in Iraq. Now, if the beheadings were of American Marines, I would not object at all.. Hell, I will even support them.. And don't give me the "They are soldiers doing their job" crap.. doesn't work anymore.. This is war, and in war people die..

Whereas the Americans prefer to use "Smart" (read: dumb) bombs and M-16s to execute their enemies, the Iraqis are resorting to very crude yet effective techniques, like beheadings. I don't have a problem with that.. In the end, both sides suffer losses.

And about the North Ossetta bombing, I have read a report broadcast by the Chechen rebel factions, that claims they were not responsible for the bombings, and condemns the "ruthless slaughter" of unarmed women and children.

I can gladly direct you to the report, but it is in Arabic, so you have to translate it yourselves.
So you would support the beheading of Iraqi prisoners being held by coalition forces?
Or is it only ok for Muslim's to do this?

Right, so I can get a machine gun and shoot my neighbors shouting "Jesus loves me!" and be a true Christian? :rolleyes:
Well...in some sects of Christianity, where Christianity is purely faith-based (Southern Baptists), the answer to that question is...Yes.

They are Muslim, or haven't you heard them shout "Allah Akbar" or whatever when they are cutting the persons' head off.
Right, so I can get a machine gun and shoot my neighbors shouting "Jesus loves me!" and be a true Christian? :rolleyes:

The Seventh - Very true. At least someone understands the root of this violence.

Islam has always been spread by the sword. During the Caliphate, most of Eastern Europe was given the choice to convert or die. Why do you think there are so many followers of Islam living in what use to be Yugoslavia? Osama ben Laden is one of those who advocate establishment of a new Caliphate, with infidels, Jews and Christians once again given the choice to convert and live under the new Caliphate, or die.

At base, what we are seeing is a resurgence through terrorism of the ancient admonition of the Prophet to convert all the world to Islam.

Aha.. catch up on your history, and since history is subjective, please refer to the most unbiased sources you can find. Don't throw out this rhetoric without backing it up.

It is a well-known fact that every city under the Muslim Caliphate had significant populations of Christians and Jews. Dealings with Christians and Jews were an everyday matter. There wasn't a stoning everyday, and an execution every day (contrary to popular belief). People of the Book had full rights to stay and interact with the Muslim community, even practice their relgion and build their places of worship alongside Mosques and within Muslim communities, as long as the "jizyah", or religious tax, is paid.

A prime example is the liberation of Jerusalem under the leadership of Umar-bin-al-Khattab. Lacking a proper site of prayer, he asked for permission to pray in a church, the Church of the Nativity, and later built a Mosque, Umar's Mosque (Which still stands today) next to the Church.

How were my comments racist? I'd like to know? I guess because I support our troops and the war, that makes me an evil, racist, warmongering, sexist, evil christian, voter disinfranchising, and idiotic republican. But tell you what, it is kind of hard to be someone like you who has their head in the sand. For that I feel sorry for you.
No, your problem seems to be that you are negatively juding an entire religion and culture by the actions of a few extremists. That's not racist, per se, just intolerant and biased.

It all depends on what their cause is. The people doing the beheadings aren't looking to score points in the US, or with most of the world, for that matter. They're looking to score points with the people at home, and who knows if it's working or not.

But I would imagine that if you're an Iraqi who has been affected negatively by the US occupation--directly or indirectly by the US forces--then seeing a group of people take the fight to the Americans is inspiring in some way. It's no shock to me that every time one of Al Sadr's men is killed there are two more to take his place. These people aren't fighting for Saddam--they're fighting against the occupation of their country by an outside force. I'll bet they'd be doing the same no matter who the occupiers were. This war has moved beyond the reign of Saddam--these people are fighting for their self-determination now, and the US troop presence is only making the problem worse.

The KKK is based off Christian Fundamentalism. They hated people not just because of race, but also because of religion. If you think other wise, you went to a shitty high school. Your comments weren't racist, but you implied that Muslims are hateful, violent people, which is untrue and shows your ignorance rather than mine. It is I who should feel sorry for you, and I do. Oh, and by the way, I'm glad that you also tried debunking my comments by implying that I don't support our troops. It's nice that you know exactly how I feel about the current military situation of our country based off my anti-prejudice reply to your highly prejudiced post.

Ok smart guy, who are the ones cutting off heads? Muslims! Some muslims are hateful, violent people. Dude, I told you I couldn't get in as they don't like Jews who are now Catholics. Why would I want to join an organization that wants all of my people dead?

BTW can you read?

Well...in some sects of Christianity, where Christianity is purely faith-based (Southern Baptists), the answer to that question is...Yes.
That doesn't make them right. Calling yourself Christian doesn't mean you are one. It's the same with these extremist muslim groups, they call themselves muslim but they aren't really.

But I would imagine that if you're an Iraqi who has been affected negatively by the US occupation--directly or indirectly by the US forces--then seeing a group of people take the fight to the Americans is inspiring in some way. It's no shock to me that every time one of Al Sadr's men is killed there are two more to take his place. These people aren't fighting for Saddam--they're fighting against the occupation of their country by an outside force. I'll bet they'd be doing the same no matter who the occupiers were. This war has moved beyond the reign of Saddam--these people are fighting for their self-determination now, and the US troop presence is only making the problem worse.

F***ing rght! Finally someone sees it the way it is!

So you would support the beheading of Iraqi prisoners being held by coalition forces?
Or is it only ok for Muslim's to do this?

Please, be my guest. Beheading them is much more humane than the disaster that you created in Abu-Ghraib (you as in U.S. Marines, not you individually).

Sure, behead Iraqi prisoners of war...

If you plan to behead all Iraqi prisoners, even the innocent ones among them, you can't really start whining about them executing drivers and civilian contractors, can you?..

As far as I understand, if you suggest possible motives for terrorism in American, it is tantamount to justifying it - and thus you "hate America" as well.
Yeah, well-then you understand the problem.....

After Sept 11 I was buying something at the grocery store and this old dude leaned toward me and said, "You know, thier shooting people with beards now."

It'd be funny in that two people having a silly argument kind of way if people weren't dieing.

That doesn't make them right. Calling yourself Christian doesn't mean you are one. It's the same with these extremist muslim groups, they call themselves muslim but they aren't really.
Who are you to judge anyone else's religion. If someone truely believes that they are muslim, then they are muslim. If someone truely believes that they are christian, then they are christian.

Or are you one of the ones who knows what the one "true" religion is?
:rolleyes:

I am a Muslim. I speak out against the vicious beheadings taking place in Iraq. Now, if the beheadings were of American Marines, I would not object at all.. Hell, I will even support them.. And don't give me the "They are soldiers doing their job" crap.. doesn't work anymore.. This is war, and in war people die..

Whereas the Americans prefer to use "Smart" (read: dumb) bombs and M-16s to execute their enemies, the Iraqis are resorting to very crude yet effective techniques, like beheadings. I don't have a problem with that.. In the end, both sides suffer losses.
How could you support that? I don't think either side is justified in what they do, but these terrorists are not Iraqis. They're not fighting for the freedom of Iraq. They're fighting against the west because they think we're infidels. They're fighting for their "clash of civilisations" fantasy.

Please, be my guest. Beheading them is much more humane than the disaster that you created in Abu-Ghraib (you as in U.S. Marines, not you individually).

Sure, behead Iraqi prisoners of war...

If you plan to behead all Iraqi prisoners, even the innocent ones among them, you can't really start whining about them executing drivers and civilian contractors, can you?..
Im not advocating anything of the sort.. I was wondering where your personal view were. You are for the beheading of prisoners. I am not.

Pray, tell me, what method do you advocate when it comes to dealing with prisoners??..

Yeah, well-then you understand the problem.....
What I want to know is: who the hell is saying that people who suggest terrorist motives are "justifying them"?

Is it most Americans, is it Christians, is it just idiots.... who??? Who is so eager to spew such hateful accusations against their fellow countrymen?

Pray, tell me, what method do you advocate when it comes to dealing with prisoners??..
One option is to hold them till the whole damn thing is over and repatriate them back into Iraq.

here is what i have been told by some local followers of the Islamic faith

In The Qur'an, it states that in times of war, no excess living things are to be harmed, trees, etc. They feel that these "men" are not true Muslim, but are using it as an excuse to try and rally more to their cause.

On another note, supposedly the number of (excuse the pun) head to head battles between US. Forces and these militants are dropping every day, as they realize they can't beat us that way. So they take their alternative method, go after civilians and drag them away into caves. Sounds a lot like what the Viet-Cong did huh? These people have no respect for the value of human life, and have decided they are ready to die for their cause. I say so be it, and so do a lot of others. You can't nuke the place, because there ARE people there who are happy to see us there, and that is just plain stupid.

A lot of people don't know, but the nation was on an extremely elevated level of security during the RNC last month. It wasn't just because the Prez was gonna be in NYC, it was because of tips from intelligence sources. They did not publically raise the level, but several commanders in the armed forces were told that if they heard a single code word, tell their familes to get to the bases ASAP because an attack was expected in less than 4 hours, and from that time, they were sure the local citizens would destroy these Islamic places of worship..

it's a dirty game.. and unfortunately, it's going to take a while. It really is sad that genocide seems the only viable option right? you have to kill them, their kids, their brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, grandkids, anyone who may have "inherited" their ways. More troops are probably going to be needed, and unfortunately, that means Bush may be more inclined to initiate a draft. And if that happens, i'm not going to run to another country, but i'll go talk to a recruiter friend and make sure i get put where i am supposed to be, not just some grunt on the line....

we need to remember to keep our heads cool on this... haste action is stupid action, and that gets more of OUR guys killed..

Who are you to judge anyone else's religion. If someone truely believes that they are muslim, then they are muslim. If someone truely believes that they are christian, then they are christian.

Or are you one of the ones who knows what the one "true" religion is?
:rolleyes:

I'm certain that Unfree People meant that to call yourself a christian / muslim doesn't necessarily make you one because only living like a christian / muslim makes you into a true christian / muslim. So, you can believe you are a christian / muslim without actually being one. As I myself am certain is the case with many terrorist who try to justify their actions by hiding behind this or that religion.

How could you support that? I don't think either side is justified in what they do, but these terrorists are not Iraqis. They're not fighting for the freedom of Iraq. They're fighting against the west because they think we're infidels. They're fighting for their "clash of civilisations" fantasy.

True.. They're not fighting for the freedom of Iraq. They are fighting for their personal freedoms.

I know you might find this hard to swallow.. Hell, you are entitled to reject it, but it's the truth. I know.

These guys want attention. They are sick of U.S.-dominance, especially when it comes to propping up unwanted governments in their countries.

Now that they see the chaos Iraq is in, and the media attention it receives, they started filling the power vacuum left by Saddam's regime (a vacuum that cannot be filled, even by the U.S. Military).

And if you invade Syria, thousands of such "groups" would materialize. And then if you invade Iran, exepct a few more million individuals to join their ranks.

They don't fight for Islam. They don't fight for Iraq. They fight against what they perceive is "Western tyranny", and they are justified in fighting against the United States, since you practically control the Middle East, their homeland.

And why do they kill?.. I dunno.. for the sake of killing I guess.. and attention. And they don't get the media attention they want if they attack US troops, but they do if they kidnap a well-known journalist.

. As I myself am certain is the case with many terrorist who try to justify their actions by hiding behind this or that religion.

that is pretty much it in a nutshell.. they are "shunned" in a way by many Islamic groups, and they are all upset...

the big question is, why don't they do anything about it? and yet i find out a lot of them hate Bush, because of his actions..

yet, the intelligent ones i talk to (some instructors or colleagues with a brain) don't hate Bush for what he has done, and commend his actions because their family still lives in Iraq, and they are all fine, as are their friends..

don't forget the media likes to add its spin on things in this region to make stuff look worse than it really is

Pray, tell me, what method do you advocate when it comes to dealing with prisoners??..

...personaly , doing what ever it takes to get the information that will lead to the saving of lives. wounds heal, death dosn't

Ok smart guy, who are the ones cutting off heads? Muslims! Some muslims are hateful, violent people. Dude, I told you I couldn't get in as they don't like Jews who are now Catholics. Why would I want to join an organization that wants all of my people dead?

BTW can you read?
1) Yes, I can read, clearly. Don't ask dumb questions.
2) It's a figure of speech. I didn't imply that you were a member of nor that you wanted to join the KKK. I implied that your attitude toward Muslims is idiotic and not dissimilar from what the KKK would have.
3) Some Muslims are hateful, violent people. Some Jews are hateful, violent people. Some Christians are hateful, violent people. Some atheists are hateful, violent people. Some Bhuddhists are hateful, violent people. Some Hinduists are hateful, violent people. Need I continue? The point is...the beheadings are happening because those people who just happen to be self-proclaimed Muslims are hateful and violent. The beheadings are happening because Muslims are hateful and violent. You have a problem with causality.

...personaly , doing what ever it takes to get the information that will lead to the saving of lives. wounds heal, death dosn't

Whatever it takes? I assume you advocate torture, then?

That's more awful than beheadings.. Want me to get into the details of the "whatever it takes" torture methods, like those used by several intelligence agencies in the Middle East?

<Breaking News: Second American hostage beheaded a few minutes ago>

What I want to know is: who the hell is saying that people who suggest terrorist motives are "justifying them"?

Is it most Americans, is it Christians, is it just idiots.... who??? Who is so eager to spew such hateful accusations against their fellow countrymen?
If I say it's anyone group it would be inherently inaccurate. Not all of the right think that way (though sometimes it feels that way, that's just as dishonest a way at looking at them), not all christians feel that way by a long shot (I feel comfortable giving them the benifit of the doubt, though I haven't looked at any numbers). I'd like to say morons, it would make it easier-but it's people who otherwise are capable people who have not looked beyond their front door.

I'll say it's the screamers, and right now the screamers have the floor. It's hard to take it from them without becoming one.

<Breaking News: Second American hostage beheaded a few minutes ago>
He was the third, and the reason that spurred me to post this thread in the first place.

Whatever it takes? I assume you advocate torture, then?

That's more awful than beheadings.. Want me to get into the details of the "whatever it takes" torture methods, like those used by several intelligence agencies in the Middle East?

ill admit those were exstream , but finding out the right information and saving the lives of many more people in my honest opinion would be worth it


the level of "whatever it takes" would have bounds based apon the what would happend if we didn't

For every one of us they kill we need to kill 100 of them.

For every one of us they kill we need to kill 10 of them.
That's called genocide.

For every one of us they kill we need to kill 10 of them.
We might be ahead of the curve. Maybe we should stop for a while and let them catch up?

Or not get our foriegn policies from the The Untouchables

I don't support these beheadings a bit, but really, there's no reason to complain about them, escpecially if you're Catholic or American.

Let's take a look at the death penalty. We kill people as a method to deter others from commiting acts of violence. But that's just what we do now.

American soldiers stormed Native American villages and killed innocent women and children. If I remember correctly, didn't the government pay for their scalps? They killed them because they were the enemy. It didn't matter if they had a family, if they were fighting.

As for Catholics, I'll leave that to one word: Inquisition.

It seems that these two groups turn a blind eye to their own history when they judge others. Both groups always self righteous and justified, no matter what the cause.

Who are you to judge anyone else's religion. If someone truely believes that they are muslim, then they are muslim. If someone truely believes that they are christian, then they are christian.If a religion is based on a certain set of principles laid out in a holy book and interpreted by teachers and leaders of that religion, then yes, you have to follow those teachings and precepts, or you aren't really of that religion.

If the bible tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Christian.
It the Koran tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Muslim.

It's simple.

Now, let me make a few assumptions about these terrorists, and please feel free to disagree with me - I am not an expert.

1) Knowing that kidnappings have been successful against many private citizens and small national powers in securing money and a general retreat of military forces (Spanish recall of forces, for example);

2) Knowing also that the demands made by these terrorists were only ever granted or negotiated with if their targeted enemies were either a) private citizens with readily-available quantities of cash for ransom OR b) nations performing some military act in Iraq (Philipines among others);

and 3) Knowing that powerful nations (USA, UK, for example) have NEVER given into the demands of terrorists no matter what, nor have other first world nations ever given into the damands of terrorists if the demands involved domestic policies of that nation (France and the hyjab ban in public schools for instance);

I can only conclude that these terrorists have no motivation whatsoever beyond a gleeful anticipation for the suffering of others and the power to extinguish life. Their demands will never be met by the powers that they threaten, and they damned well know it! Just like the USA will never surrender two female prisonners at the whim of a terrorist group, neither will France (for example) change domestic policies of secularism in their country because some bonehead in Iraq thinks that they should.

The terrorists that do this are sick individuals who know from the start that if they take prisoners from major world powers or make demands that influence the domestic policies of world powers, they will fail in their tasks and will make the conscious decision to murder people. In short, this does not help their cause, because to want to be a part of a cause, you have to sympathize with the men fighting for it (and change your label of them from "terrorist" to "freedom fighters"). But if people can only see a bloodthirsty maniacal group killing someone through no fault of that victim, how can anybody sympathize?

The "causes" these terrorists are fighting for are excuses to kill, nothing more. And this may sound overly simplistic and black and white to many people, but there are times, even for relativist atheists like myself, when there is a clear distinction between good and evil: and these hostage takers are clearly evil, in every possible form that my mind can conceive.

We might be ahead of the curve. Maybe we should stop for a while and let them catch up?

Or not get our foriegn policies from the The Untouchables

I meant 100 I just forgot my other 0.

I don't support these beheadings a bit, but really, there's no reason to complain about them, escpecially if you're Catholic or American.Not every American supports or likes the death penalty, just as most Catholics would tell you they don't agree with what happened during the Spanish Inquisition.

We might be ahead of the curve. Maybe we should stop for a while and let them catch up?

Or not get our foriegn policies from the The Untouchables
Who do you think are doing the majority of killing of Iraqi citizens?

Not every American supports or likes the death penalty, just as most Catholics would tell you they don't agree with what happened during the Spanish Inquisition.

I like the death penalty.

If a religion is based on a certain set of principles laid out in a holy book and interpreted by teachers and leaders of that religion, then yes, you have to follow those teachings and precepts, or you aren't really of that religion.

If the bible tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Christian.
It the Koran tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Muslim.

It's simple.
We're headed down a tangent, however, there are lots of things the bible says you can and can not do, but you do or don't do it anyway. By your logic, the Christian/Muslim God is largely unforgiving. A murderer might not be a good person to use as the stereotypical Christian, but they could be a Christian...and Christianity would not condone murder either way.

If one wants to kill someone, there are worse ways than beheading. But the killings aren't like judicial beheadings in any country I've heard of. The victims' heads are sawn off more than cut off. I understand that the hostages can be heard groaning or screaming in some cases. The object here is more than just killing. It is to cause disgust and horror. Perhaps hatred and reprisals, too.

If a religion is based on a certain set of principles laid out in a holy book and interpreted by teachers and leaders of that religion, then yes, you have to follow those teachings and precepts, or you aren't really of that religion.

If the bible tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Christian.
It the Koran tells me not to commit murder, and I do, I am not a true Muslim.

It's simple.
It's not even close to as simple as you state. Christianity is broken up into who knows how many different sects. Islam is broken into who knows how many different sects.
Are there not Islamic Imans preaching for the killing of "infidels"?

And people can do things against their religion and still be a part of that religion. As long as they truely believe that they are muslim or christian, and not simply using religion as a shield, then they are muslim or christian.

To say that someone is not what they believe themselves to be is saying that you "know" what their true religion should be.

Im saying neither you nor I know what they truely believe in.

By your logic, the Christian/Muslim God is largely unforgiving. I never said you couldn't repent and be forgiven for a murder. Following along with your argument, you'd have to say that these terrorists ask Allah for forgiveness for their sins against Islam. I don't see that happening.

Well...in some sects of Christianity, where Christianity is purely faith-based (Southern Baptists), the answer to that question is...Yes.

Southern baptists picking up machine guns and murdering people as part of Southern Baptist doctrine? Where did you read this particular part of scripture? Have you spent even one minute inside a Southern Baptist Church? I think not. That was certainly every bit as ignorant as someone saying all Muslims are in favor of beheading Westerners. :(

To say that someone is not what they believe themselves to be is saying that you "know" what their true religion should be.It is pretty simple... you have to follow the teachings of your religion, or you aren't truly of that religion. I don't claim to know these religions inside-out, but I do know that I can't blatently disregard the principles of those religions (like these extremists are doing), and still say I'm of that religion. (I can say it, but it would be false.)

Southern baptists picking up machine guns and murdering people as part of Southern Baptist doctrine? Where did you read this particular part of scripture? Have you spent even one minute inside a Southern Baptist Church? I think not. That was certainly every bit as ignorant as someone saying all Muslims are in favor of beheading Westerners. :(
I'm glad you're capable of comprehending what I said, since I definitely said they hand out AK47s on Sundays in Southern Baptist churches.

By the way, I have been in a Southern Baptist church...I like in fucking Arkansas and I'd like you to not question my knowledge of Southern Baptists.

What I really said was this: Southern Baptists, among other sects of Christianity, believe that the only way to get into heaven is to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour and that was all you had to do. I never said any part of Christianity condones any violent act, I merely said that, according to some sects of Christianity, you could be a violent person and a Christian at the same time and run into no troubles (except with the law maybe).

Please, if I've misrepresented, correct me...but if you just don't like the face I'm putting on Southern Baptists, consider changing denominations...

It is pretty simple... you have to follow the teachings of your religion, or you aren't truly of that religion. I don't claim to know these religions inside-out, but I do know that I can't blatently disregard the principles of those religions (like these extremists are doing), and still say I'm of that religion. (I can say it, but it would be false.)
Then again, it all depends on what you believe the principles of the religion to be...it's completely subjective...

None the less, this is a war. People will fight and people will die. And, as the case usually is in war, civilian casualties will occur, be it by accident or mistake.

As far as the question of their usefulness, to a point, I think the beheadings are doing something for them. It gives them attention and puts them out there. I'm sure the last thing they want is to be buddies with us anyway.

And when they behead these people, they do more damage than just killing a man. The family at home gets to hear the news. They get to pain over their lost love ones. The terrorists have found a way to attack their enemies at home.

Then again, it all depends on what you believe the principles of the religion to be...it's completely subjective...
In some ways, but not all of them. You have to accept Koran as the holy text to be a real Muslim, and if the Koran doesn't advocate the beheading of those you don't agree with........ I don't see any illogic there.

In some ways, but not all of them. You have to accept Koran as the holy text to be a real Muslim, and if the Koran doesn't advocate the beheading of those you don't agree with........ I don't see any illogic there.
Im just saying that you have no clue as to what they, the terrorists think or believe. Unless of course you are one of the terrorists.

If they truely believe that they themselves are muslim (of whatever sect they belong), then you can not say otherwise.

I think the uglier issue that is being overlooked here is not whether the terrorists are helping their cause by beheading, but what are they accomplishing indirectly.

The western world (and even its eastern allies) have become much more segregated in their beliefs and tactics in handling terrorism ever since 9/11. This problem has ceased to be a trifle dispute, and has become the criteria by which allies and enemies are chosen.

It's recently dawned on me that the goal of these terrorists is not so much to bring down civilization directly, but to cause rifts and bad blood between members of the West. Russia and the US are currently at odds over whether Chechnya counts as a "terrorist state", and these bastards who took over the school knew that. They knew the Russian counterattack would be swift and brutal (I mean, c'mon, it's the RUSSIANS), but their main goal was to instigate an international incident between two heavily armed allies. Unfortunately, it's working.

Think about it: would you -as an extremist armed with nothing more than homemade dynamite and an AK-47- go up against a country like Russia head-to-head, or would you help sever its ties to its biggest ally and hope it leads to a chain-reaction of events that could be devastating to both of their causes?

Beheading Americans seems to be a brutal political move on their part that is destroying morale back home and alienating the US from it's few allies. By embarrassing the top dog in the world, the terrorists succeed in making the world's only superpower look bumbling and incompetent. Sadly, that's working too.

Terrorism in general hurts the terrorists' cause, because government never meet their demands (doing so would encourage more terrorism) and it just makes people angrier at the terrorists.

If they truely believe that they themselves are muslim (of whatever sect they belong), then you can not say otherwise.
I can't say otherwise, but the rest of Islam and the Koran sure can... and do.

Please, if I've misrepresented, correct me...but if you just don't like the face I'm putting on Southern Baptists, consider changing denominations...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfree People
Right, so I can get a machine gun and shoot my neighbors shouting "Jesus loves me!" and be a true Christian?


Well...in some sects of Christianity, where Christianity is purely faith-based (Southern Baptists), the answer to that question is...Yes.

1st your representation of doctrine is incorrect. "Thou shalt not kill" comes to mind. One can ask to be forgiven but that act of murder according to scrpiture is a sin and is preached as such. If someone does murder and is part of the faith community they are certainly not following doctrine and therfor not following the true faith.

B.T.W. Not a Southern Baptist but know enough of the doctrine to know you are indeed in factual error. Maybe spliting hairs on this one but words in debate are important.

whoa beheading a person to get your point of view across? let me
get this straight if i want to kidnap an individual and make any demand i want
and when my demands are not met i can chop their head off? or is it because
they are muslim and they think the evil satan america is to blame for all of their
problems... not their leaders, the un, themselves?

i for one don't agree with some of the policies of my country and some of the policies of alot of other countries but you don't see the rest of the world beheading a muslim...........terrorism is a tool that has and always will be a tool of extermists, religious or political. it almost always hurts everyone

whoa beheading a person to get your point of view across? let me
get this straight if i want to kidnap an individual and make any demand i want
and when my demands are not met i can chop their head off? or is it because
they are muslim and they think the evil satan america is to blame for all of their
problems... not their leaders, the un, themselves?

i for one don't agree with some of my policies of my country and some of the policies of alot of other countries but you don't see the rest of the world beheading a muslim...........

It would really help if you read previous posts before replying to a topic.


As fo the method of beheading, a Muslim wouldn't behead a sheep in that manner!!.. It is disgusting, and it is intended to create horror and disgust, like mentioned earlier.

Beheading should be swift, in one swing of a sword, not a dagger like these bastards use, and the tool should be sharped to make it quick and painless.. and those are the requirements for killing sheep!!.. Let along human beings..

1st your representation of doctrine is incorrect. "Thou shalt not kill" comes to mind. One can ask to be forgiven but that act of murder according to scrpiture is a sin and is preached as such. If someone does murder and is part of the faith community they are certainly not following doctrine and therfor not following the true faith.

B.T.W. Not a Southern Baptist but know enough of the doctrine to know you are indeed in factual error. Maybe spliting hairs on this one but words in debate are important.
Well, I'm not in factual error...you're just failing to understand what I'm communicating (I think). I'm not even coming close to implying that murder is condoned by any Christian, however...like you said yourself: One can ask to be forgiven but that act of murder according to scrpiture is a sin and is preached as such.
The difference is that you said it in your words and I said it in mine. They may not be completely following the true faith, but...realistically, there are very few Christians (of any sect) that follow the "true faith" (whatever that may be) now anyway--but they're still Christians. A murder can be a Christian, but a bad example to use to represent all of Christianity. By following your logic, the women who don't wear the burkas (I think that's what the head garments are called) aren't true Muslims as the Koran specifies they must wear them, etcetera. Are they or are they not Muslims?

read my edited post plz......................

Well, I'm not in factual error...you're just failing to understand what I'm communicating (I think). I'm not even coming close to implying that murder is condoned by any Christian, however...like you said yourself: One can ask to be forgiven but that act of murder according to scrpiture is a sin and is preached as such.
The difference is that you said it in your words and I said it in mine. They may not be completely following the true faith, but...realistically, there are very few Christians (of any sect) that follow the "true faith" (whatever that may be) now anyway--but they're still Christians. A murder can be a Christian, but a bad example to use to represent all of Christianity. By following your logic, the women who don't wear the burkas (I think that's what the head garments are called) aren't true Muslims as the Koran specifies they must wear them, etcetera. Are they or are they not Muslims?

Getting off topic and into simantics or is that symantics? Murderers are not following scripture and therefore have "fallen" from the path as it were.
You are correct, many individuals of every faith fall from the true path what ever that may be. If indeed the Koran did call for women to wear burkas (you were correct that's what they are called) ,which the Koran does not, and they did not they would not be following the teachings of Mohammed.
Would they still call themselves Muslims? Orthodox as it relates to the Christian world, probably not but Muslim's none the less I'm sure.

Rambling of three hours of sleep taking hold.....