NationStates Jolt Archive

Is the US a democracy? According to the US, it is. A lot of countries say they are a democracy...

Simple question isn't it, think about it. Give me arguments to back it up or ... the opposit.

Is the US a democracy? According to the US, it is. A lot of countries say they are a democracy...

Simple question isn't it, think about it. Give me arguments to back it up or ... the opposit.
The election of leaders by all the people is generally accepted by the world as a democracy. It's not really one, but for people to have lives and not all be in politics it's neccesary to elect people to make decisions for you.

It's a Republic. Ideologically very similar to a true Democracy a Republic seeks to temper the passions of the many with the wisdom of a popularly selected few.

We're a democratic republic. A mix between a democracy and aristocracy. If we were a full democracy, every eligible citizen would have the ability to vote for every government decision made. We don't do that. We elect representitives to make decisions for us. We directly vote for things our society deems the most important, like the upcoming lesser-of-two-evils election.

the US is a democracy - but their elections don't function. this is absurd. preaching freedom but having the most senseless laws in the world. this is fucking crazy. one day, the USA will destroy the whole world with its nuclear weapons. once again this stupid president, the only thing we can do is pray for our world. :headbang:

Is the US a democracy? According to the US, it is. A lot of countries say they are a democracy...
East Germany called itself democratic.

The USA is technicaly a republic but a very democratic republic. Funny how the slightist mention of USA sets peoples flames alight. I am not American and I do not agree with many of their policies but I have not got that anger that many of you people have.

Firstly, Crackmajour, no-one here is in need of anger management, there has been no extreme language and accusations other than by you.
Anyway, of course a true democracy is virtually impossible and also not desirable. However, the US makes itself less democratic and more subversive through its election process. Convicted felons can never vote again in their lives? Hardly sounds representational, especially when we consider that immigrants - who may not know anything at all about US government - are given a couple of pamphlets and watch a promotional video of ONE candidate and then are expected to make an informed decision?

Firstly, Crackmajour, no-one here is in need of anger management, there has been no extreme language and accusations other than by you.
Anyway, of course a true democracy is virtually impossible and also not desirable. However, the US makes itself less democratic and more subversive through its election process. Convicted felons can never vote again in their lives? Hardly sounds representational, especially when we consider that immigrants - who may not know anything at all about US government - are given a couple of pamphlets and watch a promotional video of ONE candidate and then are expected to make an informed decision?

But, convicted felons can vote as soon as they serve their time.

Anyway, of course a true democracy is virtually impossible and also not desirable.

I'm curious why you think that a true democracy is not desirable.

The US are not a good type of democracy, because its electoral system is not so good. Also, there are too powers on only a person, the president.

I think that a better democracy system is the parliamentary republic, where peope can elect members of Parliaments: Parliament has more power with this system, then its more difficult that a person (or a small group) has too power on his hands. Another thing that limits USA democracy is the predominance of business on the electoral campaigns: with private funds, elected persons are more bound to the interests of business that had give an hand to him.

But, convicted felons can vote as soon as they serve their time.

In all the States? How about Florida? I seem to remember something about the last elections where convicted felons who had served their time were not allowed to cast their vote, or maybe I'm ill-informed?

I don't think I made any outragous comment. There have been several quite harsh comments made about the USA in various threads all I was trying to do was get a better understanding of why.

I do agree that convicted felons not getting to vote seems a little harsh. While they are in jail, sure not getting to vote is resonable. But not getting to vote at all even if you are genuinly reformed? Not sure that is right.

A true democracy would not be desirable because nothing would ever get done if everyone had to vote on every little motion. But that is not how most people see a democracy.

Oligarchy.

A representative Republic. The US has NEVER been a "democracy" nor will it ever be. True democracy does not work....

Well, it's sort of democratic but the "two party plus others" political system and the power of special interests (eg corporate America, right-wing Christian evilists, Jews) is too much as they buy their politicians.

A representative Republic. The US has NEVER been a "democracy" nor will it ever be. True democracy does not work....
Surely you mean has not worked....

I don't think it can but it hasn't really ever been tried...

According to www.dictionary.com

de·moc·ra·cy P Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies

1.Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
4. Majority rule.
5. The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.

re·pub·lic P Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.
1a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
1b. A nation that has such a political order.
2a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
2b. A nation that has such a political order.
3. often Republic A specific republican government of a nation: the Fourth Republic of France.
4. An autonomous or partially autonomous political and territorial unit belonging to a sovereign federation.
5. A group of people working as equals in the same sphere or field: the republic of letters.

What is it with you damn forieners saying stuff about we Americans?! Are you Jealous, because were the single most powerful natoin to ever grace the Earth? Are you Jealous because we prosper, and you dont? Sheesh, lay off us.

i think there are many more places in the world that prosper better than the USA. Basically you American have been saying this since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Is the US a democracy? According to the US, it is.

According to the CIA, it isn't - they label it a 'Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition'. Who am I to argue with that?


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

i think there are many more places in the world that prosper better than the USA. Basically you American have been saying this since the fall of the Soviet Union.
Yes, because thats when we had a economy BOOM. After the fall of the damn soviets, we didnt have to worry about War. Hell, the entire world got better after the fall of the Soviets. We lost a Super Power in the world, leaveing only two, USA and China. And we cept' China in check. Without us, we'd all be German( Oh God no..), and, we'd all live under Dictatorship.

USA is a democracy but with alot of democratic problem I think. Like for example that a low amount people is going to vote. For example it's abit scary then the world powerfull guy the american president is elected by less then half the people eligble to vote. In local election it can be only 20 % who vote for example like in Utah. Also I think a parlaiment system there evry party get as much represenatives as they voting percent they got is better. Instead of their only the guy with most votes in a votingdistrict got a seat and also the electoral system to the president seat like it is in the USA. But of course USA is not the only problem other countries also got to find they to get more democratic. For example South American countries that useally also have low votingpercent. And also EU that have to find their democratic roll and relationship to their member states and also increase the percent who votes in the european parlaiment election. But it should be a duty of any democratic goverment to find ways to improve democracy in their country. For example Hugo Chavez have extremly increasin the voting turn from 30 to 70 percent out sens he got elected mainly by increasing the voting amongst the poor.

The U.S is a democracy "ideologically"! However in practice, seeing that under 40% of the U.S population votes in elections and the candidate which has a higher levle of campaign financial backing usally wins the election(s). it would be safe to say that the U.S is lacking in the democracy department.

It's a representative republic. Coming from a small gated community where everything must be voted on, I can say without hesitation, that total democracies do not work.

USA is a democracy but with alot of democratic problem I think. Like for example that a low amount people is going to vote. For example it's abit scary then the world powerfull guy the american president is elected by less then half the people eligble to vote. In local election it can be only 20 % who vote for example like in Utah. Also I think a parlaiment system there evry party get as much represenatives as they voting percent they got is better. Instead of their only the guy with most votes in a votingdistrict got a seat and also the electoral system to the president seat like it is in the USA. But of course USA is not the only problem other countries also got to find they to get more democratic. For example South American countries that useally also have low votingpercent. And also EU that have to find their democratic roll and relationship to their member states and also increase the percent who votes in the european parlaiment election. But it should be a duty of any democratic goverment to find ways to improve democracy in their country. For example Hugo Chavez have extremly increasin the voting turn from 30 to 70 percent out sens he got elected mainly by increasing the voting amongst the poor.Thats the beauty of our Freedoms, we dont MAKE you do anything. But that comes at a cost, if i walk up to someone complaining about the current Pres i'll ask them " Did you vote? " if they say no, i'll say " Then shut the hell up, you dont have any right to complain about something you didnt do. "

Yes, because thats when we had a economy BOOM. After the fall of the damn soviets, we didnt have to worry about War. Hell, the entire world got better after the fall of the Soviets. We lost a Super Power in the world, leaveing only two, USA and China. And we cept' China in check. Without us, we'd all be German( Oh God no..), and, we'd all live under Dictatorship.
Without us you'd be german too.
I don't want to live under a nazi regime, it doesn't mean I want to be american.

In all the States? How about Florida? I seem to remember something about the last elections where convicted felons who had served their time were not allowed to cast their vote, or maybe I'm ill-informed?

Whether or not a convicted felon can vote after serving their time is in fact a states issue. You are correct about the Florida debaucle. The knowingly purged tens of thousands of voters in a game of Let's Wild Card Search the Voter Rolls.

Here are a couple of links on the issue:

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=27&row=2 (fairly clear, but I can't vouche for the credibility of the author. I've never heard of him.)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/ccrdraft060401.htm (definitely a credible source)

The broader voter's rights issue:

http://www.righttovote.org/upload/resources/167_UFile_UggenManzaSummary.pdf

As for the general topic of the thread, the US is not a democracy. It is a democratic republic (or representative democracy, whichever phrase you prefer), as several other posters have mentioned. My answer to the poll was it is a half-assed democracy, which I selected due to the fundamental issues I have with the concept of the electoral college. I feel it makes us half-assed because while I can directly vote for my representatives and senators I don't have that right when it comes to electing the President.

Thats the beauty of our Freedoms, we dont MAKE you do anything. But that comes at a cost, if i walk up to someone complaining about the current Pres i'll ask them " Did you vote? " if they say no, i'll say " Then shut the hell up, you dont have any right to complain about something you didnt do. "
And you don't care why he didn't vote?

And you don't care why he didn't vote?Look, most of our Presidents go for 4 years, so if they dont want the same damn person in office, vote aginst him. ITS NOT THAT DAMN HARD.

Look, most of our Presidents go for 4 years, so if they dont want the same damn person in office, vote aginst him. ITS NOT THAT DAMN HARD.
Yeah of course, how silly I was. Now you have explained everything, it is so clear.
If you don't like Bush, just vote Kerry! Yeah. Oh wait what is the program of Kerry again?

What is it with you damn forieners saying stuff about we Americans?! Are you Jealous, because were the single most powerful natoin to ever grace the Earth? Are you Jealous because we prosper, and you dont? Sheesh, lay off us.

I don't want to start a flame war, but Mesazoic this is why we get a bad rap.

I'm not going to argue the point about who is the strongest nation in the world (I think it's a rather absurd arguement, personally...) but I will state the tendency of a percentage of the US to repeatedly cram the concept we are "THE SUPERPOWER " down the throats of the citizens of other nations is why we are considered loud, self-centered, ignorant ego maniacs. That coupled with our government's penchance for launching "pre-emptive wars".

Oh, and our tendency to chant "U.S.A.! USA! USA!" while drinking crappy beer and wearing foam fingers. <shudders in horror/>

Basically this is the case we are federally a republic as we elect officials to do the job rather than a true representative democracy that we claim to be. Look at history where you vote for people who elect the president which is why we can have presidents who win without winning the popular vote. I'd call that a republic. That is why I am all for abolishing the Electoral College.

Locally we are a democracy though.

I agree with the people who say that the US are in principle a democracy, but de facto not really.

For me, a democracy does not necessarily mean that the people vote on everything. A democracy means to all people have a say in what the government decides.

Because there are only two parties in the US, it is quite likely that you don't agree with either. In what I see as a democracy, you should be able to setup your own party and get a fair chance to run. I believe in America this is impossible if you are not a multimillionaire. As a "normal" person, you can only vote on the people of which the ruling class comes up with, which is rather restrictive.

Yes, because thats when we had a economy BOOM. After the fall of the damn soviets, we didnt have to worry about War. Hell, the entire world got better after the fall of the Soviets. We lost a Super Power in the world, leaveing only two, USA and China. And we cept' China in check. Without us, we'd all be German( Oh God no..), and, we'd all live under Dictatorship.
:rolleyes: . America actually had very littlle of an impact on the course of WW1 or 2. Russia did far more to defeat the Germans then America ever did.

Because of the Electoral College, and the fact that in almost 50% of the states, the people who run the state's Electoral College DO NOT have to go with the majority of popular votes in that state when giving the state's College votes out, makes our country no longer a democracy.

the US is a democracy - but their elections don't function. this is absurd. preaching freedom but having the most senseless laws in the world. this is fucking crazy. one day, the USA will destroy the whole world with its nuclear weapons. once again this stupid president, the only thing we can do is pray for our world. :headbang:

Seems to me you are the one being a bit dense. What laws of ours do you see as being "senseless?" And what leads you to make insane statements like "one day, the USA will destroy the whole world with nuclear weapons?"

It seems that you desperately need to become better informed, or that you have, at best, a tenuous grip on reality.

The only thing I wold change about our system is in making the Voting popular rather than electoral, but otherwise, continue as it is. Switzerland used to have an all popular vote on pretty much every issue, and things hardly ever got done, or took forever getting done. They abolished this eventually, but it's proof that even in a small nation, it's too much to manage. The US is way too large to be able to handle a continuous popular vote on all issues arising in the House or on the Hill. By having representation, this is all made easier, though the main problem we have in the US is a lack of education among our youth in politics and the rights we have as citizens. Because of this, many fail to take advantage of the rights and abilities we have as US citizens and don't keep in touch with their local representatives and voice their concerns on issues so that our representatives can accurately account for their vote on the senate floor.

:rolleyes: . America actually had very littlle of an impact on the course of WW1 or 2. Russia did far more to defeat the Germans then America ever did.

I would love to see the reaction to that historically inaccurate statement if you made it to either a conference of historians, or better yet, to a gathering of World War II veterans.

How can you make this kind of wild, unfounded, totally inaccurate statement? Wherever you live, your local school system should be sued for incompetence. They surely failed you!

:rolleyes: . America actually had very littlle of an impact on the course of WW1 or 2. Russia did far more to defeat the Germans then America ever did.

Not entirely true. The fact is that the US was the only reason the Russians were able to even run back into Russia and leave the Nazis to face the same fate as Napolean when he tried invading east. The US and Canadian (often overlooked) forces helped shove the front of the Nazis back enough to weaken them on all sides, dividing them from their allies and driving straight into the heart of Germany. The Russians only turned tail again and helped clean up after the onslaught of the Germans at the end of the war, and after decimating their own soldiers at the expense of accomplishing anything other than more terror in their own homeland.

Of course, but the caveat from your signature must apply :.: la précision n'est pas la vérité :. To be specific the US is a federal institution designed/modified as a hybrid between representative democracy and oligarchy with a strong civil service bureaucracy. Each of the states (oligarchs) also has a representative democracy and most of the territories have a hybrid. In the general usage of the term democracy, the US qualifies as does that great monarchy the UK, because the term refers less to how the government is formed but how the country (not government) functions.

A representative Republic. The US has NEVER been a "democracy" nor will it ever be. True democracy does not work....

What? Do you mean stopping in after work every day to vote doesn't appeal to you? :)

The U.S. is a representative republic, plain and simple. Always has been. Indeed, a pure democracy would never work.

I would love to see the reaction to that historically inaccurate statement if you made it to either a conference of historians, or better yet, to a gathering of World War II veterans.

How can you make this kind of wild, unfounded, totally inaccurate statement? Wherever you live, your local school system should be sued for incompetence. They surely failed you!
It's just the plain truth though.
Your local school is still crippled by post-war propaganda.

To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.

I would love to see the reaction to that historically inaccurate statement if you made it to either a conference of historians, or better yet, to a gathering of World War II veterans.

How can you make this kind of wild, unfounded, totally inaccurate statement? Wherever you live, your local school system should be sued for incompetence. They surely failed you!

Hell, what else can you expect from someone who is either European or is influenced by their "enlightened" views? Within a couple of decades, history will be rewritten so that the U.S. was the mean ol' aggressive power in that war which went out of its way to pick on the poor, benevolent Germans and Japanese.

Hell, what else can you expect from someone who is either European or is influenced by their "enlightened" views? Within a couple of decades, history will be rewritten so that the U.S. was the mean ol' aggressive power in that war which went out of its way to pick on the poor, benevolent Germans and Japanese.You mean the same way the US, in the name of capitalism, invaded North Korea, which never did anything to anybody?

Hell, what else can you expect from someone who is either European or is influenced by their "enlightened" views? Within a couple of decades, history will be rewritten so that the U.S. was the mean ol' aggressive power in that war which went out of its way to pick on the poor, benevolent Germans and Japanese.

You got that right!! Then we will read about the death camps all over the US where we gassed all those poor people. :rolleyes:

You mean the same way the US, in the name of capitalism, invaded North Korea, which never did anything to anybody?

The US invaded North Korea? Yeah...we started that little party too didn't we? :rolleyes:

The USA is certainly a democracy. It's citizens have the right to vote in whoever they like. The problem is that Americans generally don't put that much thought or effort into their votes. Most don't vote at all, and those that do seem to make their decisions based on commercials and press releases regarding the two main parties.
If Americans were to actually read the platforms of all the parties in an election, and vote for the one they felt was best (not second-worst), then the results of elections would be much more representative of the nation than they are currently.

You got that right!! Then we will read about the death camps all over the US where we gassed all those poor people. :rolleyes:

Give them enough time, and they'll claim the U.S. propped up Hitler and then turned on him after he'd served his purpose (whatever that purpose was, of course -- they'll make that up, too). Pearl Harbor will be spun as Japan's attempt to defend itself from a massive invasion force being built in Hawaii.

But, what can you expect from folks who thought reparations after WWI were a good idea?

In all the States? How about Florida? I seem to remember something about the last elections where convicted felons who had served their time were not allowed to cast their vote, or maybe I'm ill-informed?


The laws vary from state to state.

According to the CIA, it isn't - they label it a 'Constitution-based federal republic; strong democratic tradition'. Who am I to argue with that?


'Constitution-based federal republic' means simply the way the government is structured. What this means is that there is a supreme law (the Constitution), it's a collection of sovereign states that have formed a tight union (Federation, a loose union would be a Confederation), and the central powers are divided in a Judicial, Legislative and Executive (Republic, first established by the Greeks all those years ago).

'Democracy' refers to how a government is formed. The most usual form is representative democracy in which people elect representatives instead of voting for every decisions themselves as in a direct democracy. Direct democracy can only be realistically used in small areas and simple matters, but representative democracy has problems in that it needs elections. But they're both true democracies.

There are many examples of 'Constitutional-based federal republics'. In America, besides the USA there is Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela. There are also 'Constitutional-based central republics' like Bolivia, Chile, and, I think, Colombia. Instead of being formed by sovereign states, these countries have departments that depend directly from the central government. Most of them are democratic right now, but also had autocratic governments not long ago.

You mean the same way the US, in the name of capitalism, invaded North Korea, which never did anything to anybody?

What the hell does North Korea have to do with WWII? Oh, wait. I see. You're simply rewriting history again.

Might want to check on your history of Korea (the authorized stuff, not the junk the lunatic fringe publishes on the Internet) -- check out the international contingent there. The U.S. wasn't the only nation subscribing to the "domino theory" in an attempt to stomp out the spread of communism, was it?

:rolleyes: . America actually had very littlle of an impact on the course of WW1 or 2. Russia did far more to defeat the Germans then America ever did.

I will agree with you on WWI--Germany basically collapsed by overextending itself. As far as WWII however, Russia was supported heavily by US arms and supplies. Nikita Khrushchev said in his memoirs that without US help the Russians could not have won the war. Not that Khrushchev was infallible, and Hitler might have been beaten anyway by the Russian winter and sheer overextension, but look at the realities. Stalin had shot most of his best officers in the purges of the 1930's, had signed the pact with Hitler in 1939 to divide up Eastern Europe and was totally unprepared for the invasion in 1941. Plus, many of the non-Russian nationalities which had suffered greatly under Stalin, especially the Ukrainians, and the Baltic peoples who had been independent 1918-1940, sided with Germany to fight the Russians. Without
the US coming into the war, the war in the East would have been much longer and bloodier.

What the hell does North Korea have to do with WWII? Oh, wait. I see. You're simply rewriting history again.What me re-writing history? Nonsense, go to any reputable history written or approved by the Dear Leader (Kim Jong-il) and you'll find out all about how the evil capitalists invaded North Korea and were only driven off by the valiant workers (or the Glorious Leader Kim il Sung singlehandedly, accounts vary). As what this has to do with WWII, after dealing with their internal disagreements (WWII) the capitalists took their bloated war machine and tried to put an end to the threat of the workers' revolution by destroying North Korea and returning it to a colonial possesion, but unlike the decadent capitalist nations (Germany, Japan) the valiant and pure hearted workers held them off despite their incredible numbers and advantage in war material because the heart of the worker is pure and true while the capitalist lackies are corrupt and decadant. If this seems a little incoherent or contradictory to you it is only because you have been indoctrinated by the capitalist system.

To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.


I know it's an awfully long post to quote just to stick this at the end, but I agree with just about everything you've said there. I think you're absolutely right on. The only amendment I'd like to add is that the nazis weren't the first government to pass anti-gay legislation. Ironically, the first group that comes to mind other than the nazis to pass anti-homosexual law were the biblical Israelites. Their government didn't last very long in the big historical scheme of things, but while it existed, it was primarily a theocracy, with "God's law" passed down through the reigning monarch or priests in the temple. Law at the time dictated that two men having sex was an abomination to God. (I won't say homosexuality in general, because the wording and translation is flexible enough that it could mean several different things). It may be the only law that the nazis and jews ever agreed on.

Hell, what else can you expect from someone who is either European or is influenced by their "enlightened" views? Within a couple of decades, history will be rewritten so that the U.S. was the mean ol' aggressive power in that war which went out of its way to pick on the poor, benevolent Germans and Japanese.
http://users.cybercity.dk/~dko12530/ww2.htm

WW2 :

Soviet Union 20,000,000 casualties civilian and military
United States less than 300,000 died; additional hundred thousands died in industry

WW1 :

Russia 1,700,000
USA 115,000

Does that mean the USA didn't help? No.
Thanks the USA, we are free.
But Russia was there as well.

:D The Unites States is not a democracy. Consider: Every four years, they have their choice between two corporate-backed white men of their choice, representing two political parties which do not have much significant differences between them. And when another nation actively disagrees with the USA, the USA will make them pay for it.

America says it's a democracy, but it has no respect for dissenting opinion, either at home or abroad.

Besides, consider this as well: the American Revolution was a tax revolt by white male property and slave owners."All men are created equal"? Tell that to Blacks, Natives, and women.In 1776 as now, power,real power ,is in the hands of the church,landowners,big business,and the military.

:gundge:

I'm not going to argue the point about who is the strongest nation in the world (I think it's a rather absurd arguement, personally...) but I will state the tendency of a percentage of the US to repeatedly cram the concept we are "THE SUPERPOWER " down the throats of the citizens of other nations is why we are considered loud, self-centered, ignorant ego maniacs. That coupled with our government's penchance for launching "pre-emptive wars".

You gotta love the self-loathing Americans. The guy has some pride in his nation, maybe you should too. Let's face it, America is the Roman Empire of the modern world. Looking at how the Germans, the Soviet, the Japanese, even the French and the British handled power and world leadership over the past couple of centuries, we're not doing half badly. No nation in the history of the world has ever done more for the defeated in victory than the US. We're not perfect by any means. Hell we're people, we f@ck up all the time, it's human nature. But have some pride in your culture, we've certainly accomplished many great things in our short history and are, at the moment, the greatest nation on earth.

the greatest nation on earth.Based on what?

Based on what?

Accomplishments in the last century. Money spent on Benevolent causes. Military might. World influence. There are plenty of bench marks.

Yep it seam to be alot to be said about the democracy in USA. But I will just stick to my comment about the low voting percentes. Because I think in a healthy democratic enviroment (that ever you think it is) a majority of the people think it is important to vote in the elections held. Else you will have a small engaged minority to decide, and minority ruling is against the democratic principles. And if only a minority think it worth voting should be a big concern for the goverment and politician should come up with ideas to make people vote or/and reform the goverment. Sadly that is not done or don't done enough in USA and a lot of other countries. And no mandatory voting is not a solution because it doesn't deal with the cause of the people disbelief in the democratic goverment.

What me re-writing history? Nonsense, go to any reputable history written or approved by the Dear Leader (Kim Jong-il) and you'll find out all about how the evil capitalists invaded North Korea and were only driven off by the valiant workers (or the Glorious Leader Kim il Sung singlehandedly, accounts vary). As what this has to do with WWII, after dealing with their internal disagreements (WWII) the capitalists took their bloated war machine and tried to put an end to the threat of the workers' revolution by destroying North Korea and returning it to a colonial possesion, but unlike the decadent capitalist nations (Germany, Japan) the valiant and pure hearted workers held them off despite their incredible numbers and advantage in war material because the heart of the worker is pure and true while the capitalist lackies are corrupt and decadant. If this seems a little incoherent or contradictory to you it is only because you have been indoctrinated by the capitalist system.

Are you a North Korean? If so, your view of history may be a touch shaded. If not then, I hope that this post was sarcastic.

Anyhow, we were responding in the Korean War to the incursion into the southern regions of the country by a communist faction from the northern parts led by Kim Il Sung. Subscribing to the domino theory, the US, Britain, and a few other nations decided to hold off and/or defeat the communist faction. We weren't doing all that badly until the Chinese stepped in, and we started losing men in droves due to the huge difference in troop numbers. We managed to call a truce, and forge the DMZ along the 38th parallel, one of the most heavily land-mined areas in the world, effectively cutting Korea into two nations.

Did we have a threat present to the US by Korea at the time? Not really. Were our allies in Korea threatened by a communist faction? Yep. Were we scared that any communist government might imitate Russia and become totalitarian and try to assimilate other countries? Oh yes.

Accomplishments in the last century. Money spent on Benevolent causes. Military might. World influence. There are plenty of bench marks.This is all illusion and propaganda.
In the last century, it would be the USSR or the EU by those benchmarks.

Are you a North Korean? If so, your view of history may be a touch shaded. If not then, I hope that this post was sarcastic.It wound up being sarcastic, mostly from an assumption of mine. You originally posited history being rewritten to paint the US as oppressing the benevolent Nazis and Japaneese, I thought to clarify the concept by introducing the DDDK view of the Korean War, a rather heavy handed rewriting of history. I assumed most people were aware of how different the NKorean history of the past 100 years or so is from everybody elses. If you can find an official history of the war from a North Korean source, read it, the last one I read (years ago, about 2 years after the Dear Leader took over) had me laughing almost to the point of tears. There is room for quite a bit of difference of opinion in history, but one can go too far.

Direct democracy can only be realistically used in small areas and simple matters

this bit of common wisdom always seems a bit glib to me. the idea behind it is that there are far too many issues decided by our representatives for us to realistically deal with them ourselves. but it seems to me that the vast majority of what representatives do is bullshit. have you ever actually looked at what they do and the bills they debate? very little of it looks at all important, other than in minor ways to a tiny number of people. if you have established a full-time body of people to make up laws, of course they are going to fill their time doing it. but that doesn't necessarily mean that there was that much that needed to be done. especially not by everyone.

it seems to me that when there is an issue of actual importance most people seem to find themselves having some sort of opinion on it - and that happens with people who have no vested interest in knowing much about it because they have almost no say in the outcome. given the amount of time that we spend arguing these sorts of issues with each other (on public forums like these, at our dinner tables, with our friends, etc), is it really calling for that much more of people's precious time to somehow register their opinion somewhere?

This is all illusion and propaganda.
In the last century, it would be the USSR or the EU by those benchmarks.

Who is the one being dellusional? You think Europe has had more accomplishments in the last century than the US. This current technology age was born in the US. people world wide aren't racing to learn French and German. Money spent on Benevolent causes....hell, just look at the Marshall Plan. Military might.....do I really need to argue this one? The US spends more on it's military every year than every other nation in the world combined. World influence....come on. Somebody is gonna call it arrogance I'm sure. It's not though....it's the truth, and I'm proud of my nation. Other nations have been here before. We're here now.

It's a representative republic. Coming from a small gated community where everything must be voted on, I can say without hesitation, that total democracies do not work.

or rather that places where a huge number individual actions (painting your house, putting up a mailbox, etc) must be decided by the whole of everybody else 'work', but also suck. the real problem is that people currently believe that we need to legislate a huge number of things, all the time, for everybody, instead of rationally figuring out which issues really need to be addressed by everyone and which don't.

If you want a real democracy
try Cuba, now there is democracy.
1. President Fidel Castro for life.
2. Neighboorhood committes for the defense of the revolution- CDR
3. 95 Percent + of democratic election votes for
the Cuban communist party and 100 percent
of the seats in The National Assembly.
4. And we call Bush a dictador, who loose or win,
well be gone after 2008.

This current technology age was born in the US.???
Do you mean the 'click to buy' concept?
people world wide aren't racing to learn French and German.Wasn't that the british empire?

Money spent on Benevolent causes....hell, just look at the Marshall Plan.

WTF? you would sum up the 20th century with the marshall plan?

Military might.....do I really need to argue this one? The US spends more on it's military every year than every other nation in the world combined. World influence....come on.
The world is not just The US, the UK and a little of western Europe.

people world wide aren't racing to learn French and German.

No, they're racing to learn ENGLISH.

[Stroudania #44]To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.

Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!

:D

Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!

:D[/FONT][/COLOR]You know, everything is not as stable as you think it is. History will tell you that.

:rolleyes: . America actually had very littlle of an impact on the course of WW1 or 2. Russia did far more to defeat the Germans then America ever did.


yea listen here dumbnut, dont forget about Japan... if we didnt fight then Japan would also attakc russia, and russia wouldnt have been able to fight both powers, and England well, they pretty much got owned...so, we did have a big part to play in WWII. And not to forget the "bomb."

???
Do you mean the 'click to buy' concept?

You know the internet was started by the US government right? Modern technology is driven by the US, that's a fact. There are other big players like Germany and Japan, but the US is leading right now.

Wasn't that the british empire?

Do you honestly think the world wide push by many nations to teach their students English as a second language really has something to do with the British Empire anymore? English is the language of business and technology in the modern world because of America. Nothing against the British, I like them alot, but they aren't the leading influence right now.

WTF? you would sum up the 20th century with the marshall plan?

Not at all...just giving an example of the US giving giving money to good causes. Nobody gives nearly as much as we do.

The world is not just The US, the UK and a little of western Europe.

Ok....no kidding. The US still spends more on it's military than the rest of the world combined....and I'm not just talking about the west. Do some research.

yea listen here dumbnut, dont forget about Japan... if we didnt fight then Japan would also attakc russia, and russia wouldnt have been able to fight both powers, and England well, they pretty much got owned...so, we did have a big part to play in WWII. And not to forget the "bomb."
A big part, yes, the biggest, no.
Japan had to fight in China as well and probably there would have been an uprising in Korea, but The US helped a lot anyway.

Do you honestly think the world wide push by many nations to teach their students English as a second language really has something to do with the British Empire anymore? English is the language of business and technology in the modern world because of America. Nothing against the British, I like them alot, but they aren't the leading influence right now.

then why do they teach british english and not american english in most places?

You know the internet was started by the US government right? Modern technology is driven by the US, that's a fact. There are other big players like Germany and Japan, but the US is leading right now.
The internet was started in switzerland.
In France, the minitel was the ancestor of the internet.
Modern capitalism is driven by the US and the US is getting most of the benefits of technology but saying that the US is the main driving force is not true.
Take for instance the cell phones. They are mainly scandinavian but one of these days, the US will take it over and claim to be the original driving force.

Do you honestly think the world wide push by many nations to teach their students English as a second language really has something to do with the British Empire anymore? English is the language of business and technology in the modern world because of America. Nothing against the British, I like them alot, but they aren't the leading influence right now.
Why do you think the people are learning english or spanish?
Because most of the world already speacks it.
Most of the world already speacks it because the british conquered 25% of the world and forced english down their throat.

Not at all...just giving an example of the US giving giving money to good causes. Nobody gives nearly as much as we do.
The EU gives more.

Ok....no kidding. The US still spends more on it's military than the rest of the world combined....and I'm not just talking about the west. Do some research.
You are right about that.

Hell, what else can you expect from someone who is either European or is influenced by their "enlightened" views? Within a couple of decades, history will be rewritten so that the U.S. was the mean ol' aggressive power in that war which went out of its way to pick on the poor, benevolent Germans and Japanese.

LOL! From some people, it's almost that bad already. One dim-bulb actually had the abysmal irgnorance to "prove" that the US was racist because "they dropped the Atomic Bomb on Japan, but not on Germany!" When I pointed out to him, very politely I thought, that the A-Bomb wasn't even tested until after Germany's surrender, he chose to call me a liar.

"None so blind as those who will not see."

I love the Internet, but for those unable to sort fact from fiction and use a modicum of logic, it's full of pitfalls.

Bottom line? We believe what we WANT to believe, and none so fierce as those who dimly suspect they believe a lie.

The internet was started in switzerland.

Um, the internet was started at MIT.

http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml#Origins

Modern capitalism is driven by the US and the US is getting most of the benefits of technology but saying that the US is the main driving force is not true.

There is an old saying that says follow the money....

Take for instance the cell phones. They are mainly scandinavian but one of these days, the US will take it over and claim to be the original driving force.

Link?

Why do you think the people are learning english

Ask anybody in the business world from almost any nation. English is the international language of business and technology, and that is not because of the british empire.

The EU gives more.

Give me a link please.

Theoretically everybody should be able to become the next president? The US calls itself a democracy, but if you don't have the money you will never become a president or a governor... And you have to do a lot of ass kissing with the great corporations who give you their money in order to make you do what they want. You can tell if a democracy works by checking if the country does what the people want. Don't they want a decreasing number of poor instead of an increasing number? Do they want their sons and daughters to die in a useless war? These are just a few examples.

You gotta love the self-loathing Americans. The guy has some pride in his nation, maybe you should too. Let's face it, America is the Roman Empire of the modern world. Looking at how the Germans, the Soviet, the Japanese, even the French and the British handled power and world leadership over the past couple of centuries, we're not doing half badly. No nation in the history of the world has ever done more for the defeated in victory than the US. We're not perfect by any means. Hell we're people, we f@ck up all the time, it's human nature. But have some pride in your culture, we've certainly accomplished many great things in our short history and are, at the moment, the greatest nation on earth.

I wouldn't say I don't have some pride in my nation and its culture. I certainly do. I just think part of the reason there exists a negative connotation concerning Americans is a result of the in-your-face down-your-throat nationalism (and anti-anyone-who-isn't-american) some members of society exhibit. I am not stating we shouldn't have a sense of pride and unity with respect to the US, but perhaps if we were a little less Rambo there would be less anti-American sentiment.

It's an oligarchy, legitimized as a republic. In today's world there is no true democracy, but saying it's not possible to achieve is far from right.

Yes, because thats when we had a economy BOOM. After the fall of the damn soviets, we didnt have to worry about War. Hell, the entire world got better after the fall of the Soviets. We lost a Super Power in the world, leaveing only two, USA and China. And we cept' China in check. Without us, we'd all be German( Oh God no..), and, we'd all live under Dictatorship.

You are quite living up to our stereotypical views on most of the american people... even though I wish it wasn't so.

[Psylos #73]Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!


You know, everything is not as stable as you think it is. History will tell you that.

Nothing is stable at all. Any perturbation toward "stability" is an aberration.

But one of the great "regularities" is the "rebellion of youth", and youth is often "arrested" in highly "comfortable" societies, like those in the west.

:)

I would love to see the reaction to that historically inaccurate statement if you made it to either a conference of historians, or better yet, to a gathering of World War II veterans.

How can you make this kind of wild, unfounded, totally inaccurate statement? Wherever you live, your local school system should be sued for incompetence. They surely failed you!

In WWI you didn't do jack shit compared to the other countries. You got involved when in 1917 the German subs accidently targetted American tradeships. That was barely a year before everything was done. Its not because the US joined just before the end, they had anything to do with it. On the other hand, in WWII you did help us really well. But you were backed up by the UK and a whole lot of other countries. AND I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't have wanted to get involved weren't it for Pearl Harbor. Think of the economic value of the third empire as a economic partner :p. So thanks for the help, but don't rub it in our faces and don't yell the US saved the world on its own, that only happens in hollywood movies.

Ask anybody in the business world from almost any nation. English is the international language of business and technology, and that is not because of the british empire.

I think you'll find it is. If the US was the only country to speak English, then the international language would be French or Spanish. It's thanks to the British Empire that so many countries (USA, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Singapore, et al) speak english as a native or official language. English is the language of trade, simply because so many countries now have it as part of their culture, and that came from over a century of British colonial occupation and dominance of world trade, not the relatively recent US hegemony, which has lasted only since WWII.

[Roccan #86]In WWI you didn't do jack shit compared to the other countries. You got involved when in 1917 the German subs accidently targetted American tradeships. That was barely a year before everything was done. Its not because the US joined just before the end, they had anything to do with it. On the other hand, in WWII you did help us really well. But you were backed up by the UK and a whole lot of other countries. AND I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't have wanted to get involved weren't it for Pearl Harbor. Think of the economic value of the third empire as a economic partner :p. So thanks for the help, but don't rub it in our faces and don't yell the US saved the world on its own, that only happens in hollywood movies.

America loves to "rub your faces in it" because:

*) You react so comically.
*) It's just fun to do.
*) You generally NEED facial moisturizing anyway, as your inveterate ciggy smoking tends to dry the epidermis.
*) "The French"..!
*) ..and a pissed off european is a joy forever.

Um, the internet was started at MIT.

http://www.isoc.org/internet/history/brief.shtml#Origins
Sorry I confused with the WWW :
http://www.historyoftheinternet.com/chap6.html

Link?

www.nokia.com
www.erikson.com

Ask anybody in the business world from almost any nation. English is the international language of business and technology, and that is not because of the british empire.
It is

Give me a link please.
http://www.eu2001.be/Images/vitiny/NewYorkUNDoc/Humanitarian%20aid.pdf

America loves to "rub your faces in it" because:


*) It has to low self esteem and needs to put others down to feel better about itself
*) It's finally reached country level puberty and is rebelling
*) It's rude
*) It doesn't know any better
*) 'We' make fun of them too often


Huh? Oh, we're not making up lists? Darn, it seemed like such a fun plan to let everybody's imagination run wild ;) :D

Who is the one being dellusional? You think Europe has had more accomplishments in the last century than the US. This current technology age was born in the US. people world wide aren't racing to learn French and German. Money spent on Benevolent causes....hell, just look at the Marshall Plan. Military might.....do I really need to argue this one? The US spends more on it's military every year than every other nation in the world combined. World influence....come on. Somebody is gonna call it arrogance I'm sure. It's not though....it's the truth, and I'm proud of my nation. Other nations have been here before. We're here now.

And what age of technology are we talking about? Both Industrial revolutions started in England. Later technology... well Nazi Germany did all the work. There was one country that really benefitted from all the Nazi research...I couldn't quite pinnpoint the exact name of the country, let me think...nope lost it :p (sarcasm).

If you're talking about the hitek age, I'm afraid Asia: korea and japan are ruling that one. All computers have got asian micro chips. And the american cars... well let me say one thing: European cars are allready built to consume less petrol and are more environmentally safe.

www.nokia.com
www.erikson.com

Come on, those aren't links to something relevant....try this one:

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa070899.htm

It is

You guys aren't following the money, and that is what drives the business world. They don't have Chinese students learning English because of the British Empire. They have them learning in because the want to do business with America.

http://www.eu2001.be/Images/vitiny/...arian%20aid.pdf

Good link...however I still stand by my statement that the US does more than any nation in the world. How many nations are in the EU again.... :D

If you're talking about the hitek age, I'm afraid Asia: korea and japan are ruling that one. All computers have got asian micro chips. And the american cars... well let me say one thing: European cars are allready built to consume less petrol and are more environmentally safe.

So what are modern Japan and Korea if not products of the US following WW2 and the Korean War? Both nations are completely Americanized. And here's a little tid bit to remember....most of Asian is a manufacturing bed, not a development bed. Most of those "asian microchips" are designed right here in the US by AMD and Intel and just built in Asia because the labor is cheap.

You guys aren't following the money, and that is what drives the business world. They don't have Chinese students learning English because of the British Empire. They have them learning in because the want to do business with America.
More likely India and Japan.

So what are modern Japan and Korea if not products of the US following WW2 and the Korean War? Both nations are completely Americanized. And here's a little tid bit to remember....most of Asian is a manufacturing bed, not a development bed. Most of those "asian microchips" are designed right here in the US by AMD and Intel and just built in Asia because the labor is cheap.
AZUSTEK, SONY, TOSHIBA...

Its a two-faced Democracy....so I voted "half-assed Democracy" ...close enough :D

America is a a Democracy...as good as anyother...or better...
America is a bit of a Flawed Democracy...then again...most contries have flawed systems....

While America prides itself to preserve their own democracy(xcept in 2000)...America kills other small peoples democracies...America is today the World's Democracy Biggest enemy....(It used to share that unfamous title with the USSR)...

this bit of common wisdom always seems a bit glib to me. the idea behind it is that there are far too many issues decided by our representatives for us to realistically deal with them ourselves. but it seems to me that the vast majority of what representatives do is bullshit. have you ever actually looked at what they do and the bills they debate?


It's true that lately legislative bodies have become more a social club than a place where the future of a country is decided, and members tend to spend more of their time making connections and looking after their own political careers than really discussing the important matters.

However, they still command great research resources, access to academics, studies and others that people who discuss around their dinner table often lack. That, in principle, should make them better informed. If we also add that they should be intelligent people able to see beyond the mere obvious and debate using more than sentimentality, then it's very likely that such a body would create much better laws than direct democracy.

The reality, sadly, is very different.

Of course, there should also be referenda for very important matters.

[Stroudania #44]To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.

Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!

:D


Oh, I'm a "communist" or "anarchist"...why? Because I disagree with the Bush administration and how they go against everything that his nation was founded on? It's a sad state when a twenty-three year old man has more common sense, better spelling and grammar, better ethics, and a better grasp on how this country was intended to be run than our former junkie president.

By the way, in case you didn't realize this, I was being satirical about alot of things in my last post.

Did you think that by calling me an "adolescent" or a "communo-anarchist" you could discredit me or the facts I am trying to convey? To prove a point here, this is what I believe;

1. I think people should be free to do what they want with themselves so long as it does not harm any other human being.

2. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The only person to blame for your failures at life is yourself.

3. The property I own is mine and not property of a corporation or a bank who can decide the terms of ownership.

4. I feel that government is too intrusive on people's lives and should be pulled back to nothing more than for the purposes of national defense (actually defending the borders, I mean), education, judiciary, trade, and transportation (not free transportation, but for maintaining roads and such).

5. I have the right to defend against those who would attack me, my family, or friends.

6. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, right or wrong, and should be free to debate.

Ok, I belive in personal ownership of property and non-government regulated business, so I am obviously NOT a "communist". Plus I think that we should have a government and a basic philosophy that one's actions are only a crime if said actions intentionally hurt someone. So, I'm not an "anarchist". I don't take being called either very lightly, and you shouldn't use the term unless you know what it actually means.

...however I still stand by my statement that the US does more than any nation in the world. How many nations are in the EU again.... :D

How many States are in the US?

democracy doesn't guarantee freedom
it only gives you something you can do about the freedoms
you don't have.

that is perhapse a seperate question.

it seems to be the culture here in the u.s. collectively
and individualy both, to prefer to pretend to be a lot of
things over actualy doing anythng about becoming any of them
that involves very much in the way of self dicipline to do
so.

i would say at the moment this country seems to be at its
lowest ebb, certainly its lowest ebb in my life time, of
actualy wanting and trying to be more responsive to the
will of all of us, that is unless it really is the will of
us collectively to be this messed up.

i've heard enough people claim that it is to at least
consider the possibility. fortunately those who claim that
are not the majority of voices i have heard.

of the people, for the people and by the people has never
been fully achieved of course but it seems there have been
times when there has been more honestly serious intention of
moving in the direction of it there appears to be now.

the 60s and 70s demonstrated a collective will to move in
that direction. the 80s, at least to me, appeared to be
a knee jerk opposition to doing so that has resaulted in
our going down hill ever since.

it is true that chicanery brought this about. but something
had to have created a market for that too. i think people
let themselves be persuaded that each of them would be a
part of that elete minority that took all if everyone went
for all they could grab and no one disiplined themselves
more sensibly and that the error of that is the natural
price we are all paying, even those of us who never bought
into it in the first place. and to whome it is especialy
annoying that so many have.

whatever is prioritised ahead of the real effects of real
pollicies on real people, places and things, however
wonderful or redeaming it might otherwise sound,
precipitates the kind of defacto tyranny that we have
arrived at. and by that i don't meant that it's anywhere
near as bad as it can or likely will get.

but neither is any of that inevitable either.
corruptions has intrentced itself at the highest levels

i believe it would be self deception to immagine otherwise
but corruptions is no more omnipotent, eternal or infallable
then anything else.

so no i don't think we have much in the way of democracy
today and i do know we've had somewhat more from time to
time in the past. but neither have we in the past either
ever had as much as our own idiologs would like us to
immagine. even loaded dice sometimes come up unexpectedly.
we live in a universe whose diversity all but guarantees
that at least some of the time, however rarely, they will.

i'm sure as they tell us, many other place have and perhapse
do, much worse. this is no comfort that i can see.

nor are they the most trustworthy of voices that so inform us.

i'm not so sure democracy is the ultimate question, but i'm
pretty sure i'd rather have it then what we've got now

=^^=
.../\...

[Stroudania #44]To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.

Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!

:D
In Bush's defense, I don't think he rigged the last election as much as he took advantage of a loophole that presented itself. See, if Gore had just taken his own state of Tennessee or Clinton's state of Arkansas, Florida would've been a moot point.

The mistake a lot of people make is assuming Bush is a moron. He may well be, but the people behind him are most definitely not.They are sharp as tacks. If Americans want change, they are going to have to root them all out; Not just Bush, but Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Rice, Powell, and the entire Supreme Court.

I just found out this morning that the US is not a democracy, because gerrymandering is legal.

Gerrymandering is redrawing the boundaries of electoral areas to select the voters that are in them, so eg a Democrat-governed state could move the boundaries of say 5 congressional districts so that all the republican voters are in one district and the other 4 are full of democrats, thus helping them to win 4-1. Or whatever.

Since those who are in power can choose their voters, the US is not a demoracy. In Europe gerrymandering is illegal.

then why do they teach british english and not american english in most places?

They don't. I'm British and I have a reasonable amount of experience in the field of EFL teaching in China. The Chinese students all want to learn american english. A Chinese friend of mine bought an IELTS (standard EFL test for universities used in UK and Australia among other places) book from UK bookshop Waterstones, in Manchester, England yesterday. It was a published in Britain, and she was foxed by the sentence

'Such cities were also planned with freeway systems, enabling people to drive great distances every day."

because having learned English in the UK she didn't know what a freeway is.

So what's a freeway?

So what's a freeway?

really? or are you pulling my leg (yanking my chain) ?
note equal opportunities idiom.

democracy doesn't guarantee freedom
it only gives you something you can do about the freedoms
you don't have.

that is perhapse a seperate question.

it seems to be the culture here in the u.s. collectively
and individualy both, to prefer to pretend to be a lot of
things over actualy doing anythng about becoming any of them
that involves very much in the way of self dicipline to do
so.

i would say at the moment this country seems to be at its
lowest ebb, certainly its lowest ebb in my life time, of
actualy wanting and trying to be more responsive to the
will of all of us, that is unless it really is the will of
us collectively to be this messed up.

i've heard enough people claim that it is to at least
consider the possibility. fortunately those who claim that
are not the majority of voices i have heard.

of the people, for the people and by the people has never
been fully achieved of course but it seems there have been
times when there has been more honestly serious intention of
moving in the direction of it there appears to be now.

the 60s and 70s demonstrated a collective will to move in
that direction. the 80s, at least to me, appeared to be
a knee jerk opposition to doing so that has resaulted in
our going down hill ever since.

it is true that chicanery brought this about. but something
had to have created a market for that too. i think people
let themselves be persuaded that each of them would be a
part of that elete minority that took all if everyone went
for all they could grab and no one disiplined themselves
more sensibly and that the error of that is the natural
price we are all paying, even those of us who never bought
into it in the first place. and to whome it is especialy
annoying that so many have.

whatever is prioritised ahead of the real effects of real
pollicies on real people, places and things, however
wonderful or redeaming it might otherwise sound,
precipitates the kind of defacto tyranny that we have
arrived at. and by that i don't meant that it's anywhere
near as bad as it can or likely will get.

but neither is any of that inevitable either.
corruptions has intrentced itself at the highest levels

i believe it would be self deception to immagine otherwise
but corruptions is no more omnipotent, eternal or infallable
then anything else.

so no i don't think we have much in the way of democracy
today and i do know we've had somewhat more from time to
time in the past. but neither have we in the past either
ever had as much as our own idiologs would like us to
immagine. even loaded dice sometimes come up unexpectedly.
we live in a universe whose diversity all but guarantees
that at least some of the time, however rarely, they will.

i'm sure as they tell us, many other place have and perhapse
do, much worse. this is no comfort that i can see.

nor are they the most trustworthy of voices that so inform us.

i'm not so sure democracy is the ultimate question, but i'm
pretty sure i'd rather have it then what we've got now

=^^=
.../\...

That's an awful lot of words that add up to fuck all.

really? or are you pulling my leg (yanking my chain) ?
note equal opportunities idiom.
What?

I just found out this morning that the US is not a democracy, because gerrymandering is legal.

Gerrymandering is redrawing the boundaries of electoral areas to select the voters that are in them, so eg a Democrat-governed state could move the boundaries of say 5 congressional districts so that all the republican voters are in one district and the other 4 are full of democrats, thus helping them to win 4-1. Or whatever.

Since those who are in power can choose their voters, the US is not a demoracy. In Europe gerrymandering is illegal.

so how do they draw up legislative districts in england and germany and such?

[Zandalm #90]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
America loves to "rub your faces in it" because:


*) It has to low self esteem and needs to put others down to feel better about itself
*) It's finally reached country level puberty and is rebelling
*) It's rude
*) It doesn't know any better
*) 'We' make fun of them too often


Huh? Oh, we're not making up lists? Darn, it seemed like such a fun plan to let everybody's imagination run wild

:D Heh he he he he he he...

Very good..!

[Stroudania #96]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
[Stroudania #44]
To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.


Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!





Oh, I'm a "communist" or "anarchist"...why? Because I disagree with the Bush administration and how they go against everything that his nation was founded on? It's a sad state when a twenty-three year old man has more common sense, better spelling and grammar, better ethics, and a better grasp on how this country was intended to be run than our former junkie president.

By the way, in case you didn't realize this, I was being satirical about alot of things in my last post.

Did you think that by calling me an "adolescent" or a "communo-anarchist" you could discredit me or the facts I am trying to convey? To prove a point here, this is what I believe;

1. I think people should be free to do what they want with themselves so long as it does not harm any other human being.

2. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The only person to blame for your failures at life is yourself.

3. The property I own is mine and not property of a corporation or a bank who can decide the terms of ownership.

4. I feel that government is too intrusive on people's lives and should be pulled back to nothing more than for the purposes of national defense (actually defending the borders, I mean), education, judiciary, trade, and transportation (not free transportation, but for maintaining roads and such).

5. I have the right to defend against those who would attack me, my family, or friends.

6. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, right or wrong, and should be free to debate.

Ok, I belive in personal ownership of property and non-government regulated business, so I am obviously NOT a "communist". Plus I think that we should have a government and a basic philosophy that one's actions are only a crime if said actions intentionally hurt someone. So, I'm not an "anarchist". I don't take being called either very lightly, and you shouldn't use the term unless you know what it actually means.



.."Did you think that by calling me an "adolescent" or a "communo-anarchist" you could discredit me or the facts I am trying to convey? To prove a point here, this is what I believe;"..

Not at all. Your arguments speak for themselves. I mearly described my opinion of the originator of those views.

I've read your enumerated beliefs (points 1-6). They mirror mine quite completely. :)

The singular reason that I called you, quote: "Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist", is because of your adolescent opinion that there is a grand conspiracy to "deprive the people of their rights".

And my equation of "adolescent" with "communo-anarchist" is my sarcastic statement about the maturity level of said "communo-anarchists".

:)

May we all hear from you, and your well thought out thinking, often..!

So many points and so little time:
1) WWI - USA Helped

2)WWII - USA were invaluable in the pacific, and did a great job in Europe too.

3)Just because the USA is the most important nation militarily and economiclaly does not make them great. The whole point of the thread shows that they take away personal freedom in the name of security, and hold elections where the man with the fewest votes becomes president. Besides it is China & India who will soon have the economic superiority.

4) American English is taught worldwide. Not primerily to do buisiness with USA, but with all the germans, french, chinese, japanese, indians, and whoever else wants to do business in the modern age.

5) Is the USA democratic abroad? - USA interferes with governments worldwide including removing the elected government in Chile, installing Saddam in Iraq, using the world bank, and IMF to force countries such as Bolivia and Argentina to privatise their industry in return for loans, so that US, British, French etc multinational corporations can take them over. (I am conveniently skipping over the whole military involvements in Korea, vietnam, cuba, afganistan and Iraq)

6)Enlightened Europeans - Restricted firearm use, tolerance of homosexuality, a thrust for legislation to improve the environment (fuel efficinecy, carbon emmisions etc), more political freedoms.

I might be wrong though, they are only opinions

[Carlemnaria #98]
democracy doesn't guarantee freedom
it only gives you something you can do about the freedoms
you don't have.

that is perhapse a seperate question.

it seems to be the culture here in the u.s. collectively
and individualy both, to prefer to pretend to be a lot of
things over actualy doing anythng about becoming any of them
that involves very much in the way of self dicipline to do
so.

i would say at the moment this country seems to be at its
lowest ebb, certainly its lowest ebb in my life time, of
actualy wanting and trying to be more responsive to the
will of all of us, that is unless it really is the will of
us collectively to be this messed up.

i've heard enough people claim that it is to at least
consider the possibility. fortunately those who claim that
are not the majority of voices i have heard.

of the people, for the people and by the people has never
been fully achieved of course but it seems there have been
times when there has been more honestly serious intention of
moving in the direction of it there appears to be now.

the 60s and 70s demonstrated a collective will to move in
that direction. the 80s, at least to me, appeared to be
a knee jerk opposition to doing so that has resaulted in
our going down hill ever since.

it is true that chicanery brought this about. but something
had to have created a market for that too. i think people
let themselves be persuaded that each of them would be a
part of that elete minority that took all if everyone went
for all they could grab and no one disiplined themselves
more sensibly and that the error of that is the natural
price we are all paying, even those of us who never bought
into it in the first place. and to whome it is especialy
annoying that so many have.

whatever is prioritised ahead of the real effects of real
pollicies on real people, places and things, however
wonderful or redeaming it might otherwise sound,
precipitates the kind of defacto tyranny that we have
arrived at. and by that i don't meant that it's anywhere
near as bad as it can or likely will get.

but neither is any of that inevitable either.
corruptions has intrentced itself at the highest levels

i believe it would be self deception to immagine otherwise
but corruptions is no more omnipotent, eternal or infallable
then anything else.

so no i don't think we have much in the way of democracy
today and i do know we've had somewhat more from time to
time in the past. but neither have we in the past either
ever had as much as our own idiologs would like us to
immagine. even loaded dice sometimes come up unexpectedly.
we live in a universe whose diversity all but guarantees
that at least some of the time, however rarely, they will.

i'm sure as they tell us, many other place have and perhapse
do, much worse. this is no comfort that i can see.

nor are they the most trustworthy of voices that so inform us.

i'm not so sure democracy is the ultimate question, but i'm
pretty sure i'd rather have it then what we've got now



.."the 60s and 70s demonstrated a collective will to move in
that direction. the 80s, at least to me, appeared to be
a knee jerk opposition to doing so that has resaulted in
our going down hill ever since."..

Let me guess....

An early adult of the 80's...?

An early adolescent (more probably a child) of the 70's...?

A baby or "glint in the eye" in the "fabulous" 60's...?

These are the views of an idealist, with fantasies of the wonderful progressiveness of the 60's and 70's.

But, that's not necessarily a bad thing, at all. We could use more idealists.

Idealists show us the foolishness of our people.

Idealists show us some clues about how to solve real problems.

But disillusioned idealists, with a poor view of reality (the way things actually work) and the religious fervor of the "true believer" is another word for would-be terrorist, and appeaser of same.

Democracy is not the holy oracle from which all good things flow. 51% of the people are no more enlightened than the 49% that are the minority

:gundge:

You know, I read the pages and pages of responses to this one. Wow. As a US Citizen, I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of some of my fellow citizens. I feel that the bashing of other countries is a rather infantile response fed by the public media and our egocentric world history classes. Very few classes (I'm thinking High School here) really teach history. We read about the original documents (The Constitution of the United States, the Declaration of Independance), but we don't all read the actual documents. We seem to forget that we needed to amend our consitution just to enforce that ALL people should have rights.

We are shown our shining moments in history class, but our flaws are glossed over. When we talk current events, they're OUR current events. We know that most of the other countries hate us. Most of us don't understand why they should hate us and write them off as morons. Our media don't cover what your media cover (note: I did use "media" as a plural... "media" is plural for "medium", we have more than one "medium", therefore they're the "media"). Our collegiate educations tend to be a little better rounded, but so few people can afford to go on to college, you can't possibly expect us to know better. We try. Most of us try. I am sorry for the offensiveness of my fellow citizens.

A note to the other US Citizens on the board who have resorted to petty insults of other countries and their policies/citizens:

Take care... know the real facts. Yes, the world is still learning English. Yes it IS because of the British Empire. Why the heck do you think WE speak English?! Hello. British Empire. Check, please.

Also, you're making us look like jerks. I, for one, try my best NOT to be a jerk and don't appreciate your misrepresentations at all.

You mean the same way the US, in the name of capitalism, invaded North Korea, which never did anything to anybody?

The Korean War was officially a "UN Police Action", NOT a US led-war. Yes the US was over there in the 50's and had a large presence over there. However, last time I checked the rest of the UN was over there too. I hate it when people sit here bitching about Americans knowing shit about history, yet some of these same people seem to posess some very distorted views of history.

And to the REPUBLIC in which it stands... I say it every day.

And for the REPUBLIC in which it stands... I say it every day.

*ahem*

And TO the Republic, FOR which it stands...

For the record, I once got in gobs of trouble for not reciting the pledge of allegiance in school. My father is an athiest. Plus, living in project housing, I didn't really buy that whole liberty and justice for all thing... what I saw was liberty and justice for the upper-class.

Technically we're a democratic republic, but rite now we're a half-assed democracy

The Korean War was officially a "UN Police Action", NOT a US led-war. Yes the US was over there in the 50's and had a large presence over there. However, last time I checked the rest of the UN was over there too. I hate it when people sit here bitching about Americans knowing shit about history, yet some of these same people seem to posess some very distorted views of history.

Very good. It was a UN Police Action. We were still the largest military presence there. Does anyone remember if Vietnam had any classification? I don't remember it being a police action. I also don't remember us ever declaring war. Either way, I believe the point was that those two "military actions" were part of a general "containment" policy. We were determined to snuff out the evil communists. *rolls eyes* Why we get to be everyone's boss is beyond me. No, you can't be a communist. No, you can't be gay. No, you can't marry that person. No you can't have your country back. It's just a little crazed, if you ask me.

the US is a democracy - but their elections don't function. this is absurd. preaching freedom but having the most senseless laws in the world. this is fucking crazy. one day, the USA will destroy the whole world with its nuclear weapons. once again this stupid president, the only thing we can do is pray for our world. :headbang:

its much more likely that a nation like China or North Korea will nuke the world rather than our country. And yes we are a democracy, but we need better leaders, in all the stations to make it what it once was. WE CAN DO IT!!!

[Stroudania #96]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iakeokeo
[Stroudania #44]
To answer the original question of this thread, no. The US is not and never was a democracy. We started out as a representative republic and now we are an oligarchic corporate dictatorship pretending democracy. Originally our country was what would now be considered a Libertarian form of government. Over the past century or so it has been subverted by our so-called "leaders".

President George W Bush is a prime example of the hijacking of our nation.

1. He FIXED THE ELECTION! For the love of God, he actually rigged one of the cornerstones of our government. Why don't people care he was appointed by the Supreme Court? <humor> Oh wait! American Idol is on! ::runs to TV:: </humor>.

2. He is misusing the military. Plain and simple. The Iraq War goes beyond the boundaries of international law. When President Bush was told that attacking Iraq was in violation of said law he replied sarcastically, "International law? I'm gonna have to check with my lawyer!". Now over 1,000 of our brothers are dead, and for what? Wait...Iraq = Oil rich country...Bush family = oil magnates....HMMM.....

3. He ignores the rights of the people and then trys to amend them so that they are now a doctrine of hate. What am I talking about? The homophobic anti-Gay Marriage proposed constitutional amendment that is not built around the Enlightenment Era thinking that started this country, but rather from a hateful standpoint thinly veiled as a religous move. THE ONLY OTHER NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD TO EVER TO HAVE ANTI-GAY LEGISLATION ON THE BOOKS BEFORE US WAS NAZI GERMANY.

4. Ever notice how the Department of Fatherland...*ahem* Homeland Security put out extremely obscure terrorism warnings as an excuse to have armed troops (well, police, but what else do you call guys in combat gear walking the streets?) control protestors at both the Democratic and Republican conventions. Is nothing but a fear tactic.

5. The economy was in decline before Bush came to office in 2001. He ruined it.

6. People have been arrested for expressing themselves. One man was actually arrested for giving the White House the finger. I'm personally tired with our government's policy of "free speech when its convienient and when it agrees with us".

7. John Kerry will be little better. After the assault rifle ban ran out, he said "President Bush has turned his back on the families of police he promised to protect". Ummm, what about average people who want to protect themselves? The police are NOT bound by law to protect you, you know. Anymore criminals have better armaments then average people and the police.


WAKE UP. We're screwed with Bush and we'll be screwed with Kerry, its just a measure of who receives said screwing.


Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist.

PLEASE...! Keep expressing your beliefs, so that we know your infantile paranoid foolishness.

Continue railing oh prophet of doom..!!





Oh, I'm a "communist" or "anarchist"...why? Because I disagree with the Bush administration and how they go against everything that his nation was founded on? It's a sad state when a twenty-three year old man has more common sense, better spelling and grammar, better ethics, and a better grasp on how this country was intended to be run than our former junkie president.

By the way, in case you didn't realize this, I was being satirical about alot of things in my last post.

Did you think that by calling me an "adolescent" or a "communo-anarchist" you could discredit me or the facts I am trying to convey? To prove a point here, this is what I believe;

1. I think people should be free to do what they want with themselves so long as it does not harm any other human being.

2. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. The only person to blame for your failures at life is yourself.

3. The property I own is mine and not property of a corporation or a bank who can decide the terms of ownership.

4. I feel that government is too intrusive on people's lives and should be pulled back to nothing more than for the purposes of national defense (actually defending the borders, I mean), education, judiciary, trade, and transportation (not free transportation, but for maintaining roads and such).

5. I have the right to defend against those who would attack me, my family, or friends.

6. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, right or wrong, and should be free to debate.

Ok, I belive in personal ownership of property and non-government regulated business, so I am obviously NOT a "communist". Plus I think that we should have a government and a basic philosophy that one's actions are only a crime if said actions intentionally hurt someone. So, I'm not an "anarchist". I don't take being called either very lightly, and you shouldn't use the term unless you know what it actually means.



.."Did you think that by calling me an "adolescent" or a "communo-anarchist" you could discredit me or the facts I am trying to convey? To prove a point here, this is what I believe;"..

Not at all. Your arguments speak for themselves. I mearly described my opinion of the originator of those views.

I've read your enumerated beliefs (points 1-6). They mirror mine quite completely. :)

The singular reason that I called you, quote: "Yet another angry adolescent,.. er,.. communo-anarchist", is because of your adolescent opinion that there is a grand conspiracy to "deprive the people of their rights".

And my equation of "adolescent" with "communo-anarchist" is my sarcastic statement about the maturity level of said "communo-anarchists".

:)

May we all hear from you, and your well thought out thinking, often..!

If your insulting Bush... :)

If your insulting America... :mad:

its much more likely that a nation like China or North Korea will nuke the world rather than our country. And yes we are a democracy, but we need better leaders, in all the stations to make it what it once was. WE CAN DO IT!!!

I very much respect your idealism and optimism. I share those with you. Technically, however, the United States is a Democratic Republic. We are, in fact, a Republic that institutes certain aspects of Democracy.

And what age of technology are we talking about? Both Industrial revolutions started in England. Later technology... well Nazi Germany did all the work. There was one country that really benefitted from all the Nazi research...I couldn't quite pinnpoint the exact name of the country, let me think...nope lost it :p (sarcasm).

If you're talking about the hitek age, I'm afraid Asia: korea and japan are ruling that one. All computers have got asian micro chips. And the american cars... well let me say one thing: European cars are allready built to consume less petrol and are more environmentally safe.

Funny, I also remember the Soviets making off with a lot of Nazi technology. The V2 rocket anyone? I'm not complaining though, we didn't do too bad by "acquiring" von Braun.

Technically we're a democratic republic, but rite now we're a half-assed democracy

Its NEVER been a democracy!

Very good. It was a UN Police Action. We were still the largest military presence there. Does anyone remember if Vietnam had any classification? I don't remember it being a police action. I also don't remember us ever declaring war. Either way, I believe the point was that those two "military actions" were part of a general "containment" policy. We were determined to snuff out the evil communists. *rolls eyes* Why we get to be everyone's boss is beyond me. No, you can't be a communist. No, you can't be gay. No, you can't marry that person. No you can't have your country back. It's just a little crazed, if you ask me.

I never said that the US was over in Korea merely because of the UN. We were over there because of two reasons. One, it was in line with our "containment" policy. Two, it was a Un Police Action and we happened to be, and still are, oart of the UN.

I'm just tried of people twisting around facts just so they support their opinions/views of the US. Yeah, so the US has done some shitty things in this world, but rarely is it the case where we're alone in doing so. Korea is an excellent case in point of this. Yes, the US tried to invade the North, but we sure as hell had help in one form or another from the rest the UN nations in Korea. Even if we have fucked up the world on our own in other cases, the US isn't the only nation that has done shit like that. Every nation fucks up from time to time. It is human nature to make mistakes, and it is definately within human nature to be cruel. To sit here and say the US is alone in making some big mistakes is ridiculous. Does that mean I don't care that the US has done some really awful things? Hell no! I care! I think we've done some awful things as a nation and we need to prevent such things from happening in the future. Just don't twist around facts and make your own nations look sqeeky clean because I got news for you, they're not. Most major nations fuck up. It's a fact of life. Should we live with it? No, go ahead and try to improve the future! I appluade any who do so! Just don't sit here and focus on one nation as being the source of all the problems because the problems are everywhere. Focusing on just one nation as being the source of evil just eventually leads to fight and even war. Don't believe me? Ask a couple American citizens.... I assure you all not all living here are rude, evil, blood thristy morons.

But, what can you expect from folks who thought reparations after WWI were a good idea?

It was a rational decision. The Allies wished to recieve reparations for their shattered economies and their forces lost. Although Germany was not the starter of the war, it was part of the Central Powers and as much to blame as the Austro Hungarian Empire and the Ottoman Empire.
Russia had 9,150,000 casualties which was 76.3% of their mobilised forces.
France had 6,160,000 casualties which was 73.3% of their mobilised forces.
British Empire had 3,190,000 casualties which was 35.8% of their mobilised forces.
Italy also had around 40% of their mobilised forces either dead, injured permently or missing.
This is not to mention the other damages to the nations such as to their economy.
Compared to the 350,000 casualties America suffered which was only 8.0% of their mobilised forces I can see why their President at the time Woodrow Willson didnt want reparations off Germany. As I believe you are an american you have a certain bias to this subject. Your country didnt loose as much in the War so it didnt crave vengence as much as the rest of the allies. It was the War Guilt Clause that riled the Germans and the Stock Crash of 1929 that caused World War 2.
The reperations werent a big cause of World War 2.

Does anyone remember if Vietnam had any classification? I don't remember it being a police action. I also don't remember us ever declaring war. Either way, I believe the point was that those two "military actions" were part of a general "containment" policy. We were determined to snuff out the evil communists. *rolls eyes* Why we get to be everyone's boss is beyond me. No, you can't be a communist. No, you can't be gay. No, you can't marry that person. No you can't have your country back. It's just a little crazed, if you ask me.
Well in Viet Nam it was assistance given to an aliied nation at the request of the government by way of classification. The closest modern equivalent in US policy is Columbia, in world policy the recent French intervention in The Ivory Coast. Interestingly the US became involved in Viet Nam after the French intervention in the civil war there resulted in a disaster for the French.

I never said that the US was over in Korea merely because of the UN. We were over there because of two reasons. One, it was in line with our "containment" policy. Two, it was a Un Police Action and we happened to be, and still are, oart of the UN.

Fair enough. I still think it's a wonder the U.N. will still have us since we completely blew them off in regard to Iraq.

I'm just tried of people twisting around facts just so they support their opinions/views of the US. Yeah, so the US has done some shitty things in this world, but rarely is it the case where we're alone in doing so.

In this case, we are. We went forward against the better judgement of the United Nations. Talk about stepping on toes...

~edit~Even if we have fucked up the world on our own in other cases, the US isn't the only nation that has done shit like that. Every nation fucks up from time to time. It is human nature to make mistakes, and it is definately within human nature to be cruel.

You're absolutely right. Have we let Germany live down the whole Hitler thing? Has anyone gotten off France's case for surrendering to the Nazis? (For the record, they saved a lot of French lives doing that.)

To sit here and say the US is alone in making some big mistakes is ridiculous.

I agree with you here too. We're not alone, but we are making the most blatant and deadly mistakes at the moment. I'm kind of glad someone's watching, aren't you?

Does that mean I don't care that the US has done some really awful things? Hell no! I care! I think we've done some awful things as a nation and we need to prevent such things from happening in the future. Just don't twist around facts and make your own nations look sqeeky clean because I got news for you, they're not. Most major nations fuck up. It's a fact of life. Should we live with it? No, go ahead and try to improve the future! I appluade any who do so! ~edit~.... I assure you all not all living here are rude, evil, blood thristy morons.

With the possible exception of your profanity, this was positively eloquent. Thank you. Just remember that we're taking the heat right now because our "fuck up"s are happening right now. If we were talking about WWII online, probably the Germans would be taking all the heat.

And no, we're not all bloodthirsty morons. Some of us get upset because we care deeply for our people and our country. Some are blindly nationalistic, but certainly not all of us. For those of you living outside the US, please keep in mind that some of us on the board may take exception to generalizations just like anyone else would.

Well in Viet Nam it was assistance given to an aliied nation at the request of the government by way of classification. The closest modern equivalent in US policy is Columbia, in world policy the recent French intervention in The Ivory Coast. Interestingly the US became involved in Viet Nam after the French intervention in the civil war there resulted in a disaster for the French.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it. :)

The Founding Fathers never intended to establish a government that would work for the benefit of all. Power has always been intended to be conserved in the hands of the wealthy and powerful. Even today, 1% of Americans control 1/3 of the wealth. The remaining 99% have thruout history been pitted against one another to squabble over maldistributed commodites, capital, and resources, always being blind to the true enemy.

Whenever liberals get organized, the conservatives will give just enough so that they'll quiet down, and the cycle goes on.

Source: Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States"

P.S. Props to Roccan for making yet another awesome thread.

excerpt form the pledge of allegiance:


"and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands..."



lets face it. There's no such thing as democracy. Democracy = communism.

No, as it is a liberal republic.

IF THE UNITED STATES WAS A DEMOCRACY WE MIGHT HAVE MORE SAY SO OF WHAT WE GET INVOLVED IN. :headbang: LIKE WHEN PRESIDENT BUSH DECIDED TO DECLARE OPEN WAR ON ALL TERROIST IN THE ENTIRE WORLD HE WOULD HAVE HAD TO HOLD A VOTE TO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES TO DECIDE. I'M PERTTY SURE MOST OF US WOULD HAVE :mp5: VOTED TO NUC THE BASTEREDS BUT HAY WE ALL WOULD HAVE AT LEAST HAD A SAY SO IN THE MATTER.

I'M PERTTY SURE MOST OF US WOULD HAVE :mp5: VOTED TO NUC THE BASTEREDS BUT HAY WE ALL WOULD HAVE AT LEAST HAD A SAY SO IN THE MATTER.

The truth is that a total democracy would be horrible, as this dude mentioned with the whole nukeage thing. A person may be smart, but people are very, very stupid...though that does depend on the group of people you're lookin' at.

I don't think I need to write mountains of material to convince people that giving all power to the people would be a terrible choice. Even, say...your average liberal would agree on that. But don't worry, friends. I hardly consider myself very conservative since I prescribe to medicinal Mary Jane and don't presume to tell people what they can or can't watch on tv, or hear on the radio.

And what's this about total democracy equaling communism? :headbang:

Seriously though, communism isn't even a governmental policy, because its intent is to create a classless society, without a real government. With total economic equality the theory is that there won't be a need for government because people would be able to get along just fine, though I'm sure they'd have a few crimes here and there, just like any human society. Look at Sweden. They're very social-minded, their economy is more or less Socialist with some capitalist tendencies, though most of the EU is like that anyway. Still, they do have a significant number of knife murderings, but that's when you try to police population centers that have a majority of immigrants with natural-borne Swedes, though they are turning that around.

The U.S. is not a democracy, never was one, and I pray to God it never will be one.

When half the electorate is to uneducated to understand the issues or comprehend the ramifications of their inactivity, a quarter more is unable to vote due to political mismanagment, and the national news media purposely distorts images and agenda's because they have been told that they will be banned from being able to attend press conferences at the White House. Do you think America is a democracy?

It's a Representative Republic. The Founding Fathers did NOT set up a democracy, because they knew the dangers inherent in a true democracy.