NationStates Jolt Archive

http://hnn.us/articles/7286.html

http://hnn.us/articles/7286.html
HOW BAD IS KERRY!?!?!?! ASK SOME VETERANS!!!!1111

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.

Now that is very revealing. So you despise people who take an interest in history, in their country, and who like to think?

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.

That kind of knee-jerk closed-mindedness is the reason American democracy is becoming such a joke.

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.

ad hominem attacks are fallacies. Just because you believe the wisdom of the past holds no relevance to the matters of the present, does not mean the rest of us should be doomed to repeat the past.

haven't we all learned anything from Orwell's "1984" or are some of us still guilty of doublethink?

http://hnn.us/articles/7286.html


You call that asking historians? All it did was state the results of a poll, then launch itself into a "Kerry-Edwards" stump speech.

Where did you get that, at "I blindly repeat political rhetoric for fun.com"?

HOW BAD IS KERRY!?!?!?! ASK SOME VETERANS!!!!1111

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.
bush has a degree in business? do you havea point?

oh and what veterans? john o'neill? hired attack dog for nixon, didnt go to vietnam until after kerry left. or mayeb the people who said kerry was a good guy years ago now saying hes evil untrustworthy devil? oo, or maybe thurlow, who sits around accusing kerry of controlling the entire navy because hes apparently god

It's funny. Historians, Psychologists, Artists, Philosophers, Anthropologists and others who have dedicated their lives to undersatanding the human condition tend to be liberal. Many conservatives never seem to ask why, they just condemn those who are liberal as being biased instead of ever looking into the reasoning behind it.

Hey, if you have a problem with teachers tending to be liberal, how about paying them more? That seems to be the only way to motivate conservatives.

Now that is very revealing. So you despise people who take an interest in history, in their country, and who like to think?

No, I would say he seems to despise educated people who seem to be able to see through the bullshit.. ;)

Now that is very revealing. So you despise people who take an interest in history, in their country, and who like to think?
I'm just saying that at my college, you get a history major in 35 hours, and an engineering major in 131. And of the two, which has higher quantifiable (GPA, SAT, etc.) intelligence?

I'm just saying that at my college, you get a history major in 35 hours, and an engineering major in 131. And of the two, which has higher quantifiable (GPA, SAT, etc.) intelligence?
and which one has a better understanding of humanity and human thought? i will give you a hint, its not engineering

I'm just saying that at my college, you get a history major in 35 hours, and an engineering major in 131. And of the two, which has higher quantifiable (GPA, SAT, etc.) intelligence?

Intelligence is not quantifiable. Test results are. Any engineering student should know that, historically... :D

Well... I have nothing to add to the poll. Bush certainly is the worst president of the US I had the displeasure of seeing in my life so far. I hope this kind of nightmare will not repeat itself.

and which one has a better understanding of humanity and human thought? i will give you a hint, its not engineering
Psychologists. Another group with more rigorous requirements than history. Hell, for my Pysch major, I have to take 12 hours of history, 23 more and I'd be a quadruple major!

Well... I have nothing to add to the poll. Bush certainly is the worst president of the US I had the displeasure of seeing in my life so far. I hope this kind of nightmare will not repeat itself.

Isn't it wonderful to see people adding such substance to debate? I, myself, am simply overwhelmed by the stimulating intellectual discourse.

...oh...wait...

never mind

Isn't it wonderful to see people adding such substance to debate? I, myself, am simply overwhelmed by the stimulating intellectual discourse.

...oh...wait...

never mind
O Sancta Simplicitas.

Psychologists. Another group with more rigorous requirements than history. Hell, for my Pysch major, I have to take 12 hours of history, 23 more and I'd be a quadruple major!
let me try this again

which major is more suited to the study of humans and humanity? psychology, history, etc or engineering? i will give you a hint, engineers arnt very good people people

I'm just saying that at my college, you get a history major in 35 hours, and an engineering major in 131. And of the two, which has higher quantifiable (GPA, SAT, etc.) intelligence?

That means just about NOTHING!

I work with engineers and many of them can barely clean themselves.

My house was owned by a software engineer and I am repairing all of his "improvements."

Historians are needed because they seeks the truth of events rather then making them up(IE American was founded for Christianity).

Hmphh tangent thought: How many Historians are going to see their job exported as compared to Engineers?

But this arguement shows one thing on the fact front:

The article talked about events and economics.

The people arguing it debate with "Historians are useless" and "Ask Veterens...."

So says a WAN *coughs*Engineer*coughs*

Yes I DO BATH! ;)

O Sancta Simplicitas.

О, СВЯТАЯ ПРОСТОТА

No, I would say he seems to despise educated people who seem to be able to see through the bullshit.. ;)
And with "a real job" I suspect he means something along the lines of Mc Donalds.

Gigatron -

Now that we've proven our multi-lingual ability to smite, would you care to actually discuss the issue?

And with "a real job" I suspect he means something along the lines of Mc Donalds.

Now don't be knocking the shrubs economic program!

Gigatron -

Now that we've proven our multi-lingual ability to smite, would you care to actually discuss the issue?
I did. I said, I have nothing to add to the poll, because I wholeheartedly agree with it. That is all. Bush is a catastrophic success or a critical failure.. chose whichever, these historians are right.

Now don't be knocking the shrubs economic program!
Well, it does have law, engineering and biology in it.
biology: lettuces, tomatoes, cheese, grinded beef, buns and variouse other meats.
engineering: throwing all the biology stuff together and engineer a Big Mac, cheese burger, Mc Chicken etc...
law: health regulations, lawsuits and other....

Historians are needed because they seeks the truth of events rather then making them up(IE American was founded for Christianity).

There is very little truth in history, just different perspectives of the people who were there.

Historians don't by the way know people better. Reading about other people's life isn't living it. You can read about, oh, say sex all you want....but you'll still be a virgin.

I did. I said, I have nothing to add to the poll, because I wholeheartedly agree with it. That is all. Bush is a catastrophic success or a critical failure.. chose whichever, these historians are right.

Choose whichever....but these historians are right...

I guess that doesn't leave much room for debate, does it?

Oh well...could've been fun.

You can read about, oh, say sex all you want....but you'll still be a virgin.
Sounds like you know what your talking about.

Choose whichever....but these historians are right...

I guess that doesn't leave much room for debate, does it?

Oh well...could've been fun.
Yep, there is no room to debate. Bush is a failure. Not a tiny failure, not a small failure, not a big, middle or large failure. He is a gigantic failure for the USA and history will remember him as that. The monkey who ruined the US at the beginning of the 21st century. I have no good words for this man.

There is very little truth in history, just different perspectives of the people who were there.

Historians don't by the way know people better. Reading about other people's life isn't living it. You can read about, oh, say sex all you want....but you'll still be a virgin.
ever heard the phrase "if you dont learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" historians are in a unique position in to judge a president's worth

ever heard the phrase "if you dont learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" historians are in a unique position in to judge a president's worth
A man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes.

Yep, there is no room to debate. Bush is a failure. Not a tiny failure, not a small failure, not a big, middle or large failure. He is a gigantic failure for the USA and history will remember him as that. The monkey who ruined the US at the beginning of the 21st century. I have no good words for this man.

Failure depends on your perspective. If you're left, you think he's harmed the country. If you're right, you think he saved it.

Me, I'm in the middle, and in the military. I think he's done some good, and some bad. A man's political career can't be summed up in one word.

What I think is worse is people's inability to look past their well-rooted contempt and at least examine the substance of an issue, instead of just its headline.

Pick an issue, and I'll give you my opinion. What I won't do is personally condemn a man I don't know who at least is doing what he thinks is right. Even if I vehemently disagree with it, which I do at times.

ever heard the phrase "if you dont learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" historians are in a unique position in to judge a president's worth
Ever heard the phrase two heads are better than one? How about too many chefs spoil the broth? Those who hesitate are lost, but fools rush in where angels fear to thread. Anyone can make up a stupid platitude, but they don't mean anything. Historians have no more legitimacy to judge a President than anyone else, they have no more information than we do.

ever heard the phrase "if you dont learn from history you are doomed to repeat it" historians are in a unique position in to judge a president's worth

Historians are in no position to judge a president's "worth" as you so eloquently put it, my dear Chess.

Historians are in a position to tell us about history.

What you neglect is that the actions of past presidents are actions in PAST TIMES, and may not necessarily be appropriate today. If that were not the case, then the historians should just ask the church to crucify Bush in the public square. It worked in the past, right?

Historians can sometimes....SOMETIMES...evaluate a policy's worth in the past verses in today's geopolitical and economic climate. But to say that they can evaluate a president's worth because they know history is ludicrous.

Ever heard the phrase two heads are better than one? How about too many chefs spoil the broth? Those who hesitate are lost, but fools rush in where angels fear to thread. Anyone can make up a stupid platitude, but they don't mean anything. Historians have no more legitimacy to judge a President than anyone else, they have no more information than we do.
except history has repeatedly repeated itself, repeatedly (eh enough of that)

Historians are in no position to judge a president's "worth" as you so eloquently put it, my dear Chess.

Historians are in a position to tell us about history.

What you neglect is that the actions of past presidents are actions in PAST TIMES, and may not necessarily be appropriate today. If that were not the case, then the historians should just ask the church to crucify Bush in the public square. It worked in the past, right?

Historians can sometimes....SOMETIMES...evaluate a policy's worth in the past verses in today's geopolitical and economic climate. But to say that they can evaluate a president's worth because they know history is ludicrous.
i would take your opinion seriously and care, but you have already proven yourself blindly biased, so you can stick it in your ear

i would take your opinion seriously and care, but you have already proven yourself blindly biased, so you can stick it in your ear

Blindly biased?

Read my new thread, Chess.

And if you want to talk about blind faith and following, when anyone dares challenge your "superior knowledge", all you do is insult and belittle. You are a child, and consistently act like one. You whine, condescend, degrade, and speak in rhetorical headlines. What you NEVER do is follow up on your premise with further discussion.

I am not blind, nor am I biased. I'm still trying to decide between the candidates, although I slightly lean towards the President, but for reasons you wouldn't understand. I happen to rather like John Kerry.

The saddest part is that you usually start off with an intelligent premise. But noone takes you seriously anymore because of your childish follow up. You seem like you are an intelligent person under all that anger, Chess. You'd get more accomplished if you would act like it.

except history has repeatedly repeated itself, repeatedly (eh enough of that)
Has it? Or is that just another platitude with no meaning?

It's funny. Historians, Psychologists, Artists, Philosophers, Anthropologists and others who have dedicated their lives to undersatanding the human condition tend to be liberal. Many conservatives never seem to ask why, they just condemn those who are liberal as being biased instead of ever looking into the reasoning behind it.

Hey, if you have a problem with teachers tending to be liberal, how about paying them more? That seems to be the only way to motivate conservatives.

This made me laugh :)

HOW BAD IS KERRY!?!?!?! ASK SOME VETERANS!!!!1111

People who got a degree in history while everyone else was majoring in engineering, law, or biology don't like Bush. Maybe when they get a real job they'll get some credibility.

1) What does Kerry have to do with the quality of Bush's presidency? Apparently for all your effort in engineering classes, you obviously slept through logic class, or you might have known what a "You-Too Fallacy" is. . .

2) What exactly are you saying in the second paragraph anyway? That people who take law, engineering, and/or biology would support Bush while those who take liberal arts don't? Then you might want to restructure your sentence so it makes sense. Something like: "People who got a degree in history don't like Bush while everyone else who majored in engineering, law, or biology do." Apparently, you slept through English too, otherwise you'd know how to place your clauses.

3) How can you possibly understand politics without an adequate conception of history? Most modern poly-sci books, going back all the way to Niccolo Machiavelli's The Prince and Discourses on Livy, rely on history to make their point about how politics ought to be used/employed.

2) That people who take law, engineering, and/or biology would support Bush while those who take liberal arts don't? .

You answer your own question. :D
Hows that for logic?

You answer your own question. :D
Hows that for logic?

Please tell me you're being sarcastic and not stupid. . .

The term "Liberal arts" goes back to the Middle Ages, wherein it comprised the trivium (The lower division of the seven liberal arts in medieval schools, consisting of grammar, logic, and rhetoric) and quadrivium (The higher division of the seven liberal arts in the Middle Ages, composed of geometry, astronomy, arithmetic, and music) in the medieval universities. This was a prerequisite for learning things like theology.

The modern conception of "liberal" doing have a dime's worth to do with anything in the "liberal arts".

Well.

Economics is still economics.

People have traded world wide well since somebody said "Hey lets take our stuff to countryjoebob and see if they want it"

Take a look at the Phoenicians if you want to see early "global" economics....

As to judging the President as compared to the past is bad?

That's intresting since everybody quotes past performance today. The fact remain is that job loss still counts. Shall I insert a pre-emptive "It's Clinton's fault!" ;)

Historians are supposed to log the events and the possible attitudes at the times certain laws, etc. were made.

Who is going to be more belivable.

Joe Bob talking about what he thinks the Consitution means

or

Historian Joe Bob talking about what Madison thought(from speeches, personal letters, etc.) and what he meant?

Current politicians would love historians to be outlawed. Many people don't bother with history and if nobody argued it, they would probably make up their own.

People can argue that you don't know what he was thinking. In simple logic sure, Madison was long dead before we are born. However, if you have a personal letter that says something like "No way in hell do I belive that the Laws of this land have to be controlled by Christian "values" gives a pretty good idea as to his thoughts at the time.

Ahh well what do I know?

I don't know nothing! ;)

Please tell me you're being sarcastic and not stupid. . .

The term "Liberal arts" goes back to the Middle Ages, wherein it comprised the trivium (The lower division of the seven liberal arts in medieval schools, consisting of grammar, logic, and rhetoric) and quadrivium (The higher division of the seven liberal arts in the Middle Ages, composed of geometry, astronomy, arithmetic, and music) in the medieval universities. This was a prerequisite for learning things like theology.

The modern conception of "liberal" doing have a dime's worth to do with anything in the "liberal arts".
Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot that you nowadays have to place . tags.

Oh yeah. Sorry. I forgot that you nowadays have to place . tags.

If you read half of the talking points that 1) people like Sean Hannity or Ann Coulter spew, and more importantly 2) Republicans then parrot, you'd understand any possible confusion.

Idiot!

You forget we are americans and don't understand Sarcasm! :p

Idiot!

You forget we are americans and don't understand Sarcasm! :p
:( Sorry......

Idiot!

You forget we are americans and don't understand Sarcasm! :p
yeah, really....didn't you read the other thread about that? :p

It seems a little too early for Bush's presidency to be evaluated by historians. Too many biased viewpoints clouding judgement. Long-term consequences haven't had time to develop (Don't give up hope! There's got to be a silver lining to this cloud that looks suspiciously like a hurricane!), coupled with the fact that the future is uncertain. If Kerry wins, it's not cast in stone that he will be any better. I think it is pretty valid that most historians are liberal, incidentally.

It should be noted that Bush hasn't yet finished his first term. Give him a running start before history crushes him underfoot.

It seems a little too early for Bush's presidency to be evaluated by historians. Too many biased viewpoits clouding judgement. Long-term consequences haven't had time to develop (Don't give up hope! There's got to be a silver lining to this cloud that looks suspiciously like a hurricane!), coupled with the fact that the future is uncertain. If Kerry wins, it's not cast in stone that he will be any better. I think it is pretty valid that most historians are liberal, incidentally.

It should be noted that Bush hasn't yet finished his first term. Give him a running start before history crushes him underfoot.
He has a little over a month left to finish his disastrous work. I pray to whatever lord in heaven there may be, that he gets kicked out of office.

He has a little over a month left to finish his disastrous work. I pray to whatever lord in heaven there may be, that he gets kicked out of office.

Yeah, me too