NationStates Jolt Archive

In Roman times, the Emperor Constantine rewrote the Christian bibe.
Care to back that up with some evidence? Or should we just treat this as another conspiracy theory?

I never thought there were so many in depth religious dudes in one place. Ok, there seems to be alot of grinding between the christian and jewish faith, for shame. I am what you might call a lower grade christian, I rarely go to church and I dont study the bible in depth for quotes and contexts, but I do practice the main point of both jewish and christian faiths, that is to try to live a good life and believe in god. I don't know about Jesus, by the time I was born he was long gone, but as I was born into the christian faith I accept it. Both faiths believe in god! The same god! It is a little nitpicky to complain to each other over bible text detail.
Ah yes, as for all the pedigree stuff, its fun to know and useful but I know several people who can prove decendence from royalty, my family used to be quite important too, but saying 'so kiss my royal Irish ass' just aint cool. I'm 1/8 irish and 1/8 scottish and the rest is made of brit grit but does it matter THAT much? The point is what YOU do not your ancestors, dont ride on thier name.

I read this and honestly didn't understand how in hell (no pun intended) people could say that Jesus didn't fufill each and every prophecy. I have personally looked up most of the 109 prophecies listed in the Old Testament and again in the New Testament when Jesus fufills them. Personally I have come to see that the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah because they expected Christ to come on a horse with a sword (as a warrior) and free the Jews from the Romans. Because Jesus came to free the Jews from their sins and not form the Romans they rejected him because they didn't read the signs of his coming correctly. Someone once said that hindsight is 20/20 and we can clearly (at least I hope so) see that Jesus came twice the first time to save people from their sins and the second time (which is still to come) to judge the earth. Honestly I don't see why Jews today reject Jesus as Messiah, after all my grandmother was Jewish and she accepted Christ as her Savior

Jesus hasn't come twice yet, though, has he?

Which means he hasn't fulfilled that requirement of Messiah, although you are hoping that he will...

Show some evidence (the bible doesn't count in this, as it cannot SUPPORT itself as evidence) that Jesus is coming back.

Until then, by your own admission, Jesus hasn't proved himself to be Messiah.

(There are a hundred other arguments against the Messiah thing, but we'll deal with this one first).

Show some evidence (the bible doesn't count in this, as it cannot SUPPORT itself as evidence) that Jesus is coming back.

Pardon? The term 'Messiah' is meaningless outside of a biblical perspective. Now if you don't consider the Bible reliable, then fine, we can have that (seperate) argument: but if you don't, then why care about a Messiah anyway?

Pardon? The term 'Messiah' is meaningless outside of a biblical perspective. Now if you don't consider the Bible reliable, then fine, we can have that (seperate) argument: but if you don't, then why care about a Messiah anyway?If the Bible was telling historical and theological fact, then the term "Messiah" must have a meaning outside of the biblical perspective.
The point remains: the Bible cannot function as evidence for its own account, even more so since the Bible has been heavily redacted many times to fit the current theological understandings of the respective time.

Pardon? The term 'Messiah' is meaningless outside of a biblical perspective. Now if you don't consider the Bible reliable, then fine, we can have that (seperate) argument: but if you don't, then why care about a Messiah anyway?

The term Messiah shuld have meaning even outside of the bible, if it, in fact, refers to something real.

I don't consider the bible reliable, which, as you say, is a different debate, but how can you support the veracity of Messiah, if there are no OTHER sources, and Jesus failed to fulfill all the prophecy of even the one source you claim?

The term Messiah shuld have meaning even outside of the bible, if it, in fact, refers to something real.
I don't consider the bible reliable, which, as you say, is a different debate, but how can you support the veracity of Messiah, if there are no OTHER sources, and Jesus failed to fulfill all the prophecy of even the one source you claim?
Okay.
The answer you want is: the prophecies of Zoroaster, concerning "Soshyan", the Prince of Peace. The Magi who turned up were zoroastrians, who used astrology to determine his birth etc. If you can get yourself a copy of Astro-Pro or an equivalent astronomy program, punch in the following: Jerusalem, BC7, Feb 13, about 1.00PM (yes, daytime). To the south-south-west (over the bethlehem road) you will see a conjunction of Venus(the planet of peace), Jupiter (the planet of rulership) and a star called HR8418. The conjunction was bright enough to be visible during the day.

Of course, should you ever become a Christian, you will no longer be able to rely on this as evidence, as astrology is strcitly verboten! However, the actual prophecies of Zoroaster are still impartial evidence, yes?

Okay.
The answer you want is: the prophecies of Zoroaster, concerning "Soshyan", the Prince of Peace. The Magi who turned up were zoroastrians, who used astrology to determine his birth etc. If you can get yourself a copy of Astro-Pro or an equivalent astronomy program, punch in the following: Jerusalem, BC7, Feb 13, about 1.00PM (yes, daytime). To the south-south-west (over the bethlehem road) you will see a conjunction of Venus(the planet of peace), Jupiter (the planet of rulership) and a star called HR8418. The conjunction was bright enough to be visible during the day.

Of course, should you ever become a Christian, you will no longer be able to rely on this as evidence, as astrology is strcitly verboten! However, the actual prophecies of Zoroaster are still impartial evidence, yes?

I see no evidence that the 'Wise Men' were Zoroastrian Magi, or that Zoroastrian Magi believed that Jesus was Saoshyant. The fact that Hebrew texts 'borrow' so heavily from Zoroastrian texts seems to imply the converse, in fact. The 'prophets' of the Hebrews are plagarising Zoroaster, and the Christians are attempting to fit their 'messiah' to Zoroastrian AND Hebrew prophecy.

Baha'u'llah is actually better qualified to be Saoshyant (and Messiah) than Jesus was!

I find your 'date' somewhat speculative, also... like it is the only date near the supposed birth of Jesus that matches the alignment you seek for stars... but it is obviusly NOT the only time that that alignment is/was possible.

I also question the 'brightness' of conjunctions of Venus and Jupiter... or the relevence.

I have been a christian. There is no 'evidence' there, either.

The term Messiah shuld have meaning even outside of the bible, if it, in fact, refers to something real.
Yes, but whether or not it is real is under such dispute, especially on NationStates forums, where almost everyone is Christian or Atheist. Of course, words have been made up before to qualify for a specific event, as well. An example of such is this (http://www.rinkworks.com/words/funwords.shtml); it's not the best example, yes, particularly because it's not focused on words that have specific meanings, but it shows just how specific some words can be. Who would have thought there would be a word specifically for "to dance on one's knees"? Names are a great example; not all names have specific meanings, especially in modern fantasy literature (which is, once again, a crummy example).
I don't consider the bible reliable, which, as you say, is a different debate, but how can you support the veracity of Messiah, if there are no OTHER sources, and Jesus failed to fulfill all the prophecy of even the one source you claim?
I don't consider the Bible reliable, myself. It seems that it would be impossible to be perfectly literal.