NationStates Jolt Archive

As I’ve been reading the forum threads for a bit, I’ve come to realize that truth is a very rare thing here. Plenty of people back their ideas and arguments up with facts and sources from easily-accessible internet sites. Still, the opposing side (and there’s ALWAYS an opposing side) always manages to come up with either facts for their argument, or disproof of their opponents’ statements, or some kind of general and fairly logical explanation.

So my question to the forum for tonight, because nothin’ else is on, is this:

Is there any objective truth to be found in on-line forums, or is everything essentially doomed to remain tinted by the biases and viewpoints of others?

It’s been three years since my one and only rhetoric class, but in my rustiness I’m casting my vote for the latter. I love logging on to Nation States General Forum, and seeing two threads right next to each other:
BUSH WILL WIN!!!!!1!!!
BUSH MUST LOSE!
It was amusing, but I’m really starting to firmly believe that information here is skewed beyond recognition.

Thus ends the micro-rant. The beating of AM with pointy sticks will now commence.

beating some one with pointy sticks? Would it not be more efficient to either beat with blunt sticks or jab with pointy ones?

Anyway: To me this forum is just a big laugh. How some people take everything too serious, the utter silliness of some threads, etc.
Of course it's biased, what do you expect? The WORLD is biased!

Interesting question.
Sometimes, when presented with a philosophical dilemma, I like to refer to the wisdom of the Jedi.

In this case, I think the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi will suffice.

"Luke, your going to find a great number of truths we cling to, depend greatly upon your point of view."

As a liberal, I can come up with all sorts of facts and figures thats how, for instance, what a horrible president Bush has really been.
A Conservative, might come up with some more, to disprove me.

Whos to say who is more right?

I say I am, they will say they are....

Interesting question.
Sometimes, when presented with a philosophical dilemma, I like to refer to the wisdom of the Jedi.

In this case, I think the words of Obi-Wan Kenobi will suffice.

"Luke, your going to find a great number of truths we cling to, depend greatly upon your point of view."

As a liberal, I can come up with all sorts of facts and figures thats how, for instance, what a horrible president Bush has really been.
A Conservative, might come up with some more, to disprove me.

Whos to say who is more right?

I say I am, they will say they are....

Damn it! Sorry guys. My computer's bitching at me again and locks up when I post. Firk this. But thanks for posting, I needed a new topic instead of the 5000+ thread about Kerry vs. Bush.

beating some one with pointy sticks? Would it not be more efficient to either beat with blunt sticks or jab with pointy ones?

Anyway: To me this forum is just a big laugh. How some people take everything too serious, the utter silliness of some threads, etc.
Of course it's biased, what do you expect? The WORLD is biased!

I never ever said the world wasn't biased. People still come to conclusions. You missed the point of the question. Can truth be objective in this on-line medium? Or does the inherent bias of the aveage human crush it?

The pointed stick is from Monty Python, BTW. You should be attacking me with fresh fruit.

It be great if we could call some sort of moritorium on the use of the word 'bias' until people can stop beating the shit out of it.

Christ o' mighty, the other day I saw someone on imdb.com accuse rottentomatoes.com of bias in giving Sky Captain and the World of Tommorrow a fresh rating.

That word is bloodied and laying beaten on the side of the road next to the barely breathing 'irony.'

I never ever said the world wasn't biased. People still come to conclusions. You missed the point of the question. Can truth be objective in this on-line medium? Or does the inherent bias of the aveage human crush it?

The pointed stick is from Monty Python, BTW. You should be attacking me with fresh fruit.
Damn... missed that one
*Monty Python Court sentences me to death by having naked women chase me off a cliff*

Truth can only be found in things you can measure objectively. Most stuff discussed on this forum can not (the math threads were cool).

It be great if we could call some sort of moritorium on the use of the word 'bias' until people can stop beating the shit out of it.

Christ o' mighty, the other day I saw someone on imdb.com accuse rottentomatoes.com of bias in giving Sky Captain and the World of Tommorrow a fresh rating.

That word is bloodied and laying beaten on the side of the road next to the barely breathing 'irony.'

Point taken. Which word would you have used in my place?

Damn... missed that one
*Monty Python Court sentences me to death by having naked women chase me off a cliff*

Truth can only be found in things you can measure objectively. Most stuff discussed on this forum can not (the math threads were cool).


Ah, but a Rhetoric professor may disagree. Truth does not require objectivity, nor does it need to be measured. Some truths are simply thoughts or events. Anything can be truth... in the right point of view, of course. Unless you live in a world with massless string and perfect kinetic energy transmission. Anyway, I'm wasting my time on you. You're as good as dead.

Ah, but a Rhetoric professor may disagree. Truth does not require objectivity, nor does it need to be measured. Some truths are simply thoughts or events. Anything can be truth... in the right point of view, of course. Unless you live in a world with massless string and perfect kinetic energy transmission. Anyway, I'm wasting my time on you. You're as good as dead.
Could you tell me how "truth does not require objectivity"?

BTW I'm a Beta-student. To measure is to know.

Ah, but a Rhetoric professor may disagree. Truth does not require objectivity, nor does it need to be measured. Some truths are simply thoughts or events. Anything can be truth... in the right point of view, of course. Unless you live in a world with massless string and perfect kinetic energy transmission. Anyway, I'm wasting my time on you. You're as good as dead.

Have you got a proof of what you're saying is true ?

Point taken. Which word would you have used in my place?
I don't want to make like I'm picking on you, I'm just tired of hearing people cry bias every 30 seconds, or complain about other peoples biases or accusing trees of being biased towards sunlight or....well, you get the idea.

Someone makes a post like this every few weeks where they have some sort of detatched observation about how batshit everyone is and on and on. The reality is that American democracy is supposed to be founded on people having raging arguments about this crap. People have to disagree to get the thing going in the first place. In essence there isn't a right or wrong. Without debate one group is allowed to control the discourse and the system doesn't work. So in that light, NS General is less batshit than the world outside of it. Even if it is trench fighting.

Sure, some use more clinical evidence for thier opinions and some just shout loud and often that the otherside eats babies and sacrifices kittens, it's your job to sort through that and evaluate the arguments individually not as a whole. Too hard to do as a whole to condemn the entire pool. Few weeks ain't gonna cut it.

You're asking for objective truth. Thats for math. Everything else, well, that's why we have rhetoric classes....

Could you tell me how "truth does not require objectivity"?

BTW I'm a Beta-student. To measure is to know.

Think along the lines of a "personal truth". One man's truth is another man's untruth. There are things in the world we assume to be true without actual evidence. The truth came before the system to justify it.

Murder is wrong. For a great deal of society, this is true. It is a near-universally held truth. Why? There is nothing in nature which we could have possibly measured to come to this conclusion. Killing's great. Killing is life. Yet the society-tinted truth of "murder is wrong" stands. The point: truth is fluid and may not necessarily be the product of measured evidence. Truth is a word our human minds create and assign to the world around us.

BTW, I'm an astronomy part-time grad student. To observe and speculate is to know... sort of. I'm also a very poor philosopher, but expert bartender. I figure the two cancel each other out.

I don't want to make like I'm picking on you, I'm just tired of hearing people cry bias every 30 seconds, or complain about other peoples biases or accusing trees of being biased towards sunlight or....well, you get the idea.

Someone makes a post like this every few weeks where they have some sort of detatched observation about how batshit everyone is and on and on. The reality is that American democracy is supposed to be founded on people having raging arguments about this crap. People have to disagree to get the thing going in the first place. In essence there isn't a right or wrong. Without debate one group is allowed to control the discourse and the system doesn't work. So in that light, NS General is less batshit than the world outside of it. Even if it is trench fighting.

Sure, some use more clinical evidence for thier opinions and some just shout loud and often that the otherside eats babies and sacrifices kittens, it's your job to sort through that and evaluate the arguments individually not as a whole. Too hard to do as a whole to condemn the entire pool. Few weeks ain't gonna cut it.

You're asking for objective truth. Thats for math. Everything else, well, that's why we have rhetoric classes....


Yeah, that sums it up. Sorry. I wasn't aware this was a "common" thread. I honestly thought I was being original. :rolleyes:

Have you got a proof of what you're saying is true ?

Of course not! That would prove me wrong! :D

Think along the lines of a "personal truth". One man's truth is another man's untruth. There are things in the world we assume to be true without actual evidence. The truth came before the system to justify it.

Murder is wrong. For a great deal of society, this is true. It is a near-universally held truth. Why? There is nothing in nature which we could have possibly measured to come to this conclusion. Killing's great. Killing is life. Yet the society-tinted truth of "murder is wrong" stands. The point: truth is fluid and may not necessarily be the product of measured evidence. Truth is a word our human minds create and assign to the world around us.

BTW, I'm an astronomy part-time grad student. To observe and speculate is to know... sort of. I'm also a very poor philosopher, but expert bartender. I figure the two cancel each other out.
YAY bartenders!

"Murder is wrong" is the agreed upon opinion of the modern western world.
"Murder is found wrong in the modern western civilization" is truth.

Your "truth" is just like history; It's what the majority (or victors, the people in power, etc.) agrees upon.

Yeah, that sums it up. Sorry. I wasn't aware this was a "common" thread. I honestly thought I was being original. :rolleyes:
"There's nothing new under the sun..."

It doesn't matter if someone did a thread before (unless the other thread is on the first page, then you're a jackass). The subject mattered to you at the time, and there is always a wealth of people to respond to anything (unless I start the thread....) so even if it does happen a lot, it's not nearly as common or annoying as "God Loves You/God Doesn't Exist/Prove God Doesn't Exist/Why Can't Atheists Leave Christians Alone" Fuck that's an irratating cycle.

I'm kinda touchy today, apparently......

YAY bartenders!

"Murder is wrong" is the agreed upon opinion of the modern western world.
"Murder is found wrong in the modern western civilization" is truth.

Your "truth" is just like history; It's what the majority (or victors, the people in power, etc.) agrees upon.

"Murder is always wrong" is truth. It is a contingent truth, but it is a truth. Murder is always wrong because the global accepted usage of the word "murder" is to indicate "wrongful killing". By definition murder is wrong, because if it isn't wrong, it isn't murder.

Linguistic truth is like a mathematical truth, in that it defines itself. The point about randomly killing people for no good reason being wrong in western societies not wrong as fact is a good point, it's just that you have to say "randomly killing people for no good reason" not "murder" to make the point.

YAY bartenders!

"Murder is wrong" is the agreed upon opinion of the modern western world.
"Murder is found wrong in the modern western civilization" is truth.

Your "truth" is just like history; It's what the majority (or victors, the people in power, etc.) agrees upon.
You could also end up in this giant toilet bowl of what constitutes murder, and the degrees at which...etc.

(i.e. abortion, death penalty, war, etc.....)

Nothings easy. Except cereal. Thats easy.

"There's nothing new under the sun..."

It doesn't matter if someone did a thread before (unless the other thread is on the first page, then you're a jackass). The subject mattered to you at the time, and there is always a wealth of people to respond to anything (unless I start the thread....) so even if it does happen a lot, it's not nearly as common or annoying as "God Loves You/God Doesn't Exist/Prove God Doesn't Exist/Why Can't Atheists Leave Christians Alone" Fuck that's an irratating cycle.

I'm kinda touchy today, apparently......


DAMMIT DAMMIT ^#(*#( DAMMIT!! I FIRKING HATE THESE COMPUTERS!!

I had like three paragraphs for you, and the computer refused to remain connected to the net. If I wasn't at work I'd take a goddamn sledge to that firking computer. I have to keep hopping between two pcs.

So here's the jist: yeah. I feel your pain. No worries, you get a hug.

You could also end up in this giant toilet bowl of what constitutes murder, and the degrees at which...etc.

(i.e. abortion, death penalty, war, etc.....)

Nothings easy. Except cereal. Thats easy.

My daughter eats a thing called a cereal bar. It is about 50% breakfast cereal, stuck together with sugar, glucose syrup and vile vaguely milk-based white gunk. I don't consider it cereal, nor do I consider it healthy in spite of the manufacturer's claims (which may well be true) that it is fortified with niacin, thiamin and some other stuff. Given its sugar content, it is frankly a candy bar with rice crispies in it. My daughter disagrees. Even cereal can be complex.

YAY bartenders!

"Murder is wrong" is the agreed upon opinion of the modern western world.
"Murder is found wrong in the modern western civilization" is truth.

Your "truth" is just like history; It's what the majority (or victors, the people in power, etc.) agrees upon.

That's very close to what I'm saying. Here's the thing: murder is only wrong in the "civilized" world. In other cultures, killing was perfectly acceptable. Our religious and mythogical roots come from two societys, essentially: hunting parties and farming communities. This was the point in our history where organized religion was starting to form. In farming communities, the people modeled their lives after the cycle of the plant. Things grow, die, and become born again. All of our human sacrifices came from near-vegetarians, which I think is kind of funny. The sacrifice was favored and honored and envied. They were almost always killed after a wonderful and happy festival (normally the harvest). Murder wasn't wrong then. Truth is fluid. It changes shape based upon the humans influencing it. Yet even with that knowledge, I still hold "murder is wrong" as a personal and literal truth.

YAY bartenders!

"Murder is wrong" is the agreed upon opinion of the modern western world.
"Murder is found wrong in the modern western civilization" is truth.

Your "truth" is just like history; It's what the majority (or victors, the people in power, etc.) agrees upon.
Replace all "Murder"s with "Randomly killing people for no good reason"s
:D

That's very close to what I'm saying. Here's the thing: murder is only wrong in the "civilized" world. In other cultures, killing was perfectly acceptable. Our religious and mythogical roots come from two societys, essentially: hunting parties and farming communities. This was the point in our history where organized religion was starting to form. In farming communities, the people modeled their lives after the cycle of the plant. Things grow, die, and become born again. All of our human sacrifices came from near-vegetarians, which I think is kind of funny. The sacrifice was favored and honored and envied. They were almost always killed after a wonderful and happy festival (normally the harvest). Murder wasn't wrong then. Truth is fluid. It changes shape based upon the humans influencing it. Yet even with that knowledge, I still hold "murder is wrong" as a personal and literal truth.
It is my truth too, but it's not THE truth

Replace all "Murder"s with "Randomly killing people for no good reason"s
:D

What about the ideals of honor and glory for the Greeks and Romans? Killing is glorious. Hunting is glorious, even if you don't need the food or fur.

Or what about a society (I don't know if one exists like this, however) where personal strength is all that matters. Simply the act of taking another life makes you better because they were weaker than you. You became more god-like with each kill. Perhaps this society never existed (and let's hope it never does), but I can picture a demented mind adapting this frame of mind.

It is my truth too, but it's not THE truth

You know what I just have to ask next then...


What is THE truth? If our roles were reversed, I'd answer God. But I'm 22 and silly. And I want to know your answer to that question.

Yet even with that knowledge, I still hold "murder is wrong" as a personal and literal truth.

Well don't. Seriously. Why hold "murder is wrong" to be a literal truth when you know (subject to what I wrote above about why murder is always wrong) that it is just an opinion? Hold it to be your opinion and your society's opinion, and save the word "truth" for describing things that are true, like water is wet, the sun came up yesterday and it will probably come up tomorrow, bush is a war criminal, j/k.

There are some philosophical truths, but they are observations mostly about logic and language. The "one man's truth is another woman's bullshit" argument is ony valid if you change the meaning of truth from "a fact" to "a strongly held opinion". Just don't do it. Or if you have, undo it.

Welcome to NationStates Arcadian Mists!

You know what I just have to ask next then...


What is THE truth? If our roles were reversed, I'd answer God. But I'm 22 and silly. And I want to know your answer to that question.

THE truth is, there isn't one. Some stuff is true. I'm truly typing. You're truly a girl, or a guy, whichever one you are. I'm guessing guy, girls aren't often this existential, in my experience. But other than that, what? It's true that if society is founded on being nice to people rather than killing them, more people will have a nicer time, probably. But I don't think this is written into the fabric of the universe. it's just a logical consequence of being nice to people.

Well don't. Seriously. Why hold "murder is wrong" to be a literal truth when you know (subject to what I wrote above about why murder is always wrong) that it is just an opinion? Hold it to be your opinion and your society's opinion, and save the word "truth" for describing things that are true, like water is wet, the sun came up yesterday and it will probably come up tomorrow, bush is a war criminal, j/k.

There are some philosophical truths, but they are observations mostly about logic and language. The "one man's truth is another woman's bullshit" argument is ony valid if you change the meaning of truth from "a fact" to "a strongly held opinion". Just don't do it. Or if you have, undo it.

Have you ever seen an anime series called Runoni Kenshin? (yes, I have a point)

My daughter eats a thing called a cereal bar. It is about 50% breakfast cereal, stuck together with sugar, glucose syrup and vile vaguely milk-based white gunk. I don't consider it cereal, nor do I consider it healthy in spite of the manufacturer's claims (which may well be true) that it is fortified with niacin, thiamin and some other stuff. Given its sugar content, it is frankly a candy bar with rice crispies in it. My daughter disagrees. Even cereal can be complex.
Not to derail the conversation, but here's something that locks in my brain every once in a while:

Somewhere, out in the world right now, there is someone dissatisfied with the level of re-sealable storage bag technology. There has to be for there to be a new ziplock bag every six months. Who is this guy? What drives his world?

Have you ever seen an anime series called Runoni Kenshin? (yes, I have a point)

(I'm glad to hear it) No. I have only seen, out of the entire anime oeuvre, Akira, Urotsukidoji and Tank Police.

THE truth is, there isn't one. Some stuff is true. I'm truly typing. You're truly a girl, or a guy, whichever one you are. I'm guessing guy, girls aren't often this existential, in my experience. But other than that, what? It's true that if society is founded on being nice to people rather than killing them, more people will have a nicer time, probably. But I don't think this is written into the fabric of the universe. it's just a logical consequence of being nice to people.

So, you're relative final statement on the matter, is similar to this:

Truth is evidence. You can measure it, observe it, and know it. I am male. Truth. I have a keyboard in front of me. Truth. There is no spoon is a lame quote. Truth.




truth (lower case) is a name humans use to describe the world around them, a "secondary truth" to the universe dependent on the individual sentient being. Murder is wrong. Truth. The Matrix gets better. Truth ;) . This forum is going to try to kill each other by the throat every day until the internet explodes. Truth.

You know what I just have to ask next then...


What is THE truth? If our roles were reversed, I'd answer God. But I'm 22 and silly. And I want to know your answer to that question.
a) THE truth is that you're gonna die before you'll find out the truth
b) 42
c) I'm only 19, why do you ask me?

take your pick

Not to derail the conversation, but here's something that locks in my brain every once in a while:

Somewhere, out in the world right now, there is someone dissatisfied with the level of re-sealable storage bag technology. There has to be for there to be a new ziplock bag every six months. Who is this guy? What drives his world?

This is capitalism in action - build a better ziploc bag, yknow? Ziploc Inc makes 30 billion ziploc bags a week. J Jonah Ziploc, proprietor, employs 30 MIT PhDs to think up ways to make them faster and more efficiently. Each tiny improvement saves 0.000001 cents per bag. Eventually he will be able to buy that little caribbean island he has always dreamed of.

The ziploc bag my barmcakes (bread rolls for making sandwiches) come in, the ziploc is stronger than the surrounding plastic. it is almost impossible to open the bag without ripping it to shreds.

(I'm glad to hear it) No. I have only seen, out of the entire anime oeuvre, Akira, Urotsukidoji and Tank Police.

Here's why I refuse to throw away that "truth".

Kenshin was a samurai. A damn good one, and killed a lot of people, but became a wanderer and stopped killing. He used his sword to defend people but never kill. This is the premise of the series. The quote below is a bit off, excuse me. Kenshin is face to face with a villain. The villian is trying to kill Kenshin's love interest, who teaches a defensive martial art with wooden swords. She says that the sword is an art form, and used for protection. The villain says it's a killing tool. Kenshin, just before he kicks the guy's ass...

"*She* is wrong. The sword is forged for war. It is made for killing and warfare. It claims lives. It will achieve this many times over for many years. It is a weapon. But I like *her* version better. So let's all just follow her example, shall we?"

I chose my "truth" because it's better than any other truth. I'm a vegetarian because I belive men are capable of treating animals better than they treat themselves. Did I create God or did God create me? It actually doesn't matter. The truth will exist in my head until I no longer exist with it. Evidence be dammed.








And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped.

truth (lower case) is a name humans use to describe the world around them, a "secondary truth" to the universe dependent on the individual sentient being. Murder is wrong. Truth. The Matrix gets better. Truth ;) . This forum is going to try to kill each other by the throat every day until the internet explodes. Truth.

this "secondary truth" is just bollocks. it isn't truth, it's opinion. americans are taught from birth that they are individual snowflakes with as much right to their own ideas of the world as everyone else yada yada yada. Europeans are taught that if you have something to say, you'd better have 3 ways to prove it.

a) THE truth is that you're gonna die before you'll find out the truth
b) 42
c) I'm only 19, why do you ask me?

take your pick


I want to pick b, but I have no right. I haven't read it yet. I only saw the movie. I'm a terrible person. So c! :D :D :D

this "secondary truth" is just bollocks. it isn't truth, it's opinion. americans are taught from birth that they are individual snowflakes with as much right to their own ideas of the world as everyone else yada yada yada. Europeans are taught that if you have something to say, you'd better have 3 ways to prove it.

Don't you like snowflakes?

Here's why I refuse to throw away that "truth".

Kenshin was a samurai. A damn good one, and killed a lot of people, but became a wanderer and stopped killing. He used his sword to defend people but never kill. This is the premise of the series. The quote below is a bit off, excuse me. Kenshin is face to face with a villain. The villian is trying to kill Kenshin's love interest, who teaches a defensive martial art with wooden swords. She says that the sword is an art form, and used for protection. The villain says it's a killing tool. Kenshin, just before he kicks the guy's ass...

"*She* is wrong. The sword is forged for war. It is made for killing and warfare. It claims lives. It will achieve this many times over for many years. It is a weapon. But I like *her* version better. So let's all just follow her example, shall we?"

I chose my "truth" because it's better than any other truth. I'm a vegetarian because I belive men are capable of treating animals better than they treat themselves. Did I create God or did God create me? It actually doesn't matter. The truth will exist in my head until I no longer exist with it. Evidence be dammed.








And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped.

ok - so what you really mean by truth is "my favourite delusion". In which case your original question is "Are we ever going to all have the same favourite delusion?". This seems unlikely. Also, you could quote "I like her version better" from almost any american tv program or movie that contains an element of conflict. Notable exceptions are the Law and Order and CSI families. I have a feeling that one contributor to their success in the US is the way that some of the characters insist on the existence of an objective truth.

Don't you like snowflakes?

if you've seen one, you've seen em all

I want to pick b, but I have no right. I haven't read it yet. I only saw the movie. I'm a terrible person. So c! :D :D :D
I only read that part... I'm getting the book soon from a friend so I can read the whole thing, but he does not read very much and is only on page 200 or so. :(

I only read that part... I'm getting the book soon from a friend so I can read the whole thing, but he does not read very much and is only on page 200 or so. :(

there's a movie of Hitch Hiker's Guide?

there's a movie of Hitch Hiker's Guide?
blasphemy!

ok - so what you really mean by truth is "my favourite delusion". In which case your original question is "Are we ever going to all have the same favourite delusion?". This seems unlikely. Also, you could quote "I like her version better" from almost any american tv program or movie that contains an element of conflict. Notable exceptions are the Law and Order and CSI families. I have a feeling that one contributor to their success in the US is the way that some of the characters insist on the existence of an objective truth.

Pardon the delay. I had to switch computers again. I'm running out of time, so I'm going to start drawing to a close. No offense. I'm enjoying the debate.

Anyways, call it delusion if you want. I won't say you're incorrect. But I don't acknowledge it as delusion. I look at it as something beyond evidence, reason, and opinion. If Truth exists, that's what I think it is. The scientist part of my brain calls it the Grand Unifiation Theory. The Faery part of me calls it Unity. The Catholic part of my calls it God. It has millions of names. It's anything you want it to be, even nothing at all. But in the end, I'm content to have a delusion, and by association, a higher purpose. Call me crazy.




Jeeze, I really got going, didn't I? Sorry everyone, I'm not normally so preachy!

there's a movie of Hitch Hiker's Guide?

It has its moments, but read the book. You'll do yourself a favor.

Pardon the delay. I had to switch computers again. I'm running out of time, so I'm going to start drawing to a close. No offense. I'm enjoying the debate.

Anyways, call it delusion if you want. I won't say you're incorrect. But I don't acknowledge it as delusion. I look at it as something beyond evidence, reason, and opinion. If Truth exists, that's what I think it is. The scientist part of my brain calls it the Grand Unifiation Theory. The Faery part of me calls it Unity. The Catholic part of my calls it God. It has millions of names. It's anything you want it to be, even nothing at all. But in the end, I'm content to have a delusion, and by association, a higher purpose. Call me crazy.

Jeeze, I really got going, didn't I? Sorry everyone, I'm not normally so preachy!

Grand unification theory isn't going to tell us anything about vegetarianism or murder, nor is it going to be a delusion.

As to Hitch Hiker's Guide, I've read the first 4, and before that I was a big fan of the original radio series. A new season (which douglas adams was writing before he died, so I don't know how much of it is his) is starting tomorrow on R4. I just didn't know there was a movie of it.

Grand unification theory isn't going to tell us anything about vegetarianism or murder, nor is it going to be a delusion.

Once again, you take the words too literally. It's the closest thing in physics to the explaination of everything. One grand theory that covers all aspects of physical science.

I do respect you and your points, but I continue to stand by my original stance: there's meaning beyond the literal words. If your life is nothing but definitions and literal meaning, you're living life on the shallowest level.

Once again, you take the words too literally. It's the closest thing in physics to the explaination of everything. One grand theory that covers all aspects of physical science.

I do respect you and your points, but I continue to stand by my original stance: there's meaning beyond the literal words. If your life is nothing but definitions and literal meaning, you're living life on the shallowest level.

You're mixing up life and truth. Truth is definitions and literal usage. Life is rich and complicated and contains much that is not truth, and can never be called truth. That doesn't make either life or truth less than they are. Just keep the word "truth" for truth, it will make your head so much clearer

You're mixing up life and truth. Truth is definitions and literal usage. Life is rich and complicated and contains much that is not truth, and can never be called truth. That doesn't make either life or truth less than they are. Just keep the word "truth" for truth, it will make your head so much clearer

My rhetoric has taught me otherwise about the nature of truth, but I'll see your point. After all, that was what the whole thread was about. I'm going home now so this is my last post. So long and thanks for all the fish.

Anything that has objective truth as a base doesn't need arguement. You don't see threads debating whether the sky is blue, do you?

To this point, for something to be debatable, the facts have to be in dispute. So you're always going to see biased viewpoints and skewed facts and such in any internet forum where debate is a common theme.