NationStates Jolt Archive

I've read the other topic "Abortionists: Explain yourselves." If you haven't read the first post in the topic, it goes like this:

Now, before we begin, let me clear some things up. I do not support abortion, excepting some circumstances. If the pregnant woman was raped, in my opinion, she should be able to have an abortion. If the pregnant women was the victim of incest, she should be able to have an abortion. If the birth of the child would cause the mother serious injury, she should be able to have an abortion. Those are the only occasions when an abortion should be legal.

Now, in today's world, people are ****ed up. This posts talks as if all expecting women are the beacons of light. It's not like that.

First off, I'd like to know HOW we are to know whether or not a woman is raped? Sure, many rapes are done in dark alleys at night, but not all of them. Some are done in the backseats or cars, behind closed doors, etc. Sometimes between a woman and her boyfriend.

So, what if such a woman suddenly hated her boyfriend following their...ahem...venture into pleasure? She could easily tell off that her boyfriend "raped" her! Simple as that. Now we got a woman who demands an abortion for a rape that never happened, and police are frantically trying to figure out who was right. Imagine 30 Michael Jackson cases happening at once. Not pretty eh?

Now, for incest. Perhaps the "victim" was doing something similar or equal to the above? Now we got all those consequences PLUS some confused children watching the news.

And for the "mother suffering serious injury." Can the pain suffered during childbirth not be called "a form of pain"? It seems to me that any woman can simply say this and get off easy.

So it's not the victims who I'm against here, it's the pretending-victims and the downright liars that I want to keep out. You know the type of world we live in where people lie to keep a buck. Imagine how many lies a woman would do so she wouldn't have to have a baby. Imagine how many lies a guy would do so his girl wouldn't have the baby. People abuse things, I don't see why we should give them this opportunity. Better to just plain legalize abortion and prevent millions of dollars and weeks of testing and reassurance so that the real victims get what they need A.S.A.P.

And I hate jumping into topics after 4832098402398 pages, so that's why I made this one here.

I think its a womans right. Its her so she should be able to have it killed up until it takes it first breath.

Since I'm lazy, I'm going to copy and paste an ancient livejournal entry of mine on the subject:

"My thoughts on abortion.
Abortion for rape, incest, health concerns, etc. in my opinion is acceptable. To use abortion as a birth control just because the woman was grossly irresponsible and lazy is not.
In all cases, we must consider the environment and situation the child and mother would face. It's more than likely the mother is not fit to take care of and raise a child. Perhaps in many instances it would be more cruel it let it live than die. There are enough neglected, abused, impoverished, and starving children in the world as there is. Why add more? Perhaps there should be a compromise, that the mother-not-to-be should have their tubes tied, as to kill two birds with one stone.
As for when a fetus becomes "life". I would say that it neither becomes life at conception nor birth, but somewhere in between. I would say it isn't a human life until it becomes conscious, self-aware, and sentient. So abortion should probably be acceptable when it's just a glob of cells, but late term abortions when the child could clearly live outside the womb is despicable. It's simply inexcusable to wait really late into the pregnancy to abort.
Ultimately, I feel that the choice is the woman's alone, since people have no right to impose their will over another person's body. I feel that abortion is an unfortunate but necessary "evil". However, I think there should be more effort put into prevention though support, education, information, and encouraging more responsible breeding habits (safe sex, etc.), to reduce the amount abortions to make it less of an issue. Better than having some scared, confused, and troubled teen killing herself trying to fish it out with a coat hanger, right?
This is all a touchy and emotional subject for many, and I'm probably not informed enough to make a valid judgment, but anyway..."

I probably could've polished this up a bit and elaborated a bit more. Plus some of my thoughts and feelings might've shifted slightly since the time this was originally written, so I could've edited it to fit that. But of course, all of that requires, ugh, "effort".

But I will point out that incouraging abortion and other forms of birth control would probably help reduce poverty and over-population. Also, it seems like it's the stupid people who are breeding like rabbits. Do we really want the genepool to be saturated with that?

I think its a womans right. Its her so she should be able to have it killed up until it takes it first breath.

Not trying to take the role of the overbearing religious zealot here, but what about the baby? How do you know that fetus isn't a thinking being?

After not too long, the fetus starts exhibiting highly humanistic traits. It's able to adopt personality traits/interests when the mother does something (it shows up after they're born, but still). And if they have this ability, they're able to think. Because personality and interests aren't restricted to our animal instincts (i.e. being shy).

<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/~_metacognition">my long winded abortion beliefs found here</a>

Also, it seems like it's the stupid people who are breeding like rabbits. Do we really want the genepool to be saturated with that?

Wow, I didn't realize that there was an identified "stupid" gene that worked independently from environmental factors. Thank goodness we've got you neo-eugenicists to keep us straight.

Wow, I didn't realize that there was an identified "stupid" gene that worked independently from environmental factors. Thank goodness we've got you neo-eugenicists to keep us straight.

Genetics do indeed have an impact on intelligence, although it isn't the sole determining factor.
Also, family is a part of enviroment. How do you think a child born into an abusive and/or neglectful household is going to develop? By breeding they perpetuate that cycle and each generation carries on the tradition of the previous.

Genetics do indeed have an impact on intelligence, although it isn't the sole determining factor.
Also, family is a part of enviroment. How do you think a child born into an abusive and/or neglectful household is going to develop? By breeding they perpetuate that cycle and each generation carries on the tradition of the previous.

Wow, it's true: Americans don't get sarcasm!

So, what are you trying to say? That only those in the "lower classes" are abusive or neglectful? This concept certainly doesn't jibe with my own observations.

Genetics do indeed have an impact on intelligence, although it isn't the sole determining factor.
Also, family is a part of enviroment. How do you think a child born into an abusive and/or neglectful household is going to develop? By breeding they perpetuate that cycle and each generation carries on the tradition of the previous.

What you're saying is true, but a large part of humanity is learning from it's mistakes and getting it right. For every abusive cycle, there's a child who learns that the behaviour is wrong and breaks it. For every "stupid" family, there's going to be a child who goes out in pursuit of learning.

Wow, it's true: Americans don't get sarcasm!

So, what are you trying to say? That only those in the "lower classes" are abusive or neglectful? This concept certainly doesn't jibe with my own observations.

Uh, yeah, I knew you were being sarcasitic. *rereads my reply* Hmm, don't see anything that implied otherwise.
But anyway, fine, I retract my statement about genetics. DNA doesn't factor in. At all.
But as for classes, I never made any such generalisation. Although I don't think you can deny that domestic problems (and crime in general) might be a bit higher in ghettos than other areas. Also, it seems like it's the single mothers on low income who have a large amount of kids (all to different fathers, no less).


....Here, I'll save you the trouble: "Oh, so now you're saying it's racial. is that it!?"

She could easily tell off that her boyfriend "raped" her! Simple as that. Now we got a woman who demands an abortion for a rape that never happened, and police are frantically trying to figure out who was right. Imagine 30 Michael Jackson cases happening at once. Not pretty eh?

First of all, doctors can order a PAP test, to find out if women were raped recently or in the past. The lining to the uterus will be ripped or scarred.

Secondly, abortions should only be legal if the mother is in danger of dying from giving birth. Or she is unable to raise herself and her child.

Thirdly, sex should be only for the marriage bed, with two adults that are aware a baby is possible and have the money to support a baby and a family.

This way is the right way, that would happen in the perfect world.

First of all, doctors can order a PAP test, to find out if women were raped recently or in the past. The lining to the uterus will be ripped or scarred.

Secondly, abortions should only be legal if the mother is in danger of dying from giving birth. Or she is unable to raise herself and her child.

Thirdly, sex should be only for the marriage bed, with two adults that are aware a baby is possible and have the money to support a baby and a family.

This way is the right way, that would happen in the perfect world.

Well then, "the perfect world" died out in medieval times.

...and I think you mean the lining of the vaginal walls. If the lining of the uterus was damaged, she must've been raped by a horse.

But in any case just trust me on this; abortion is our friend.

What is the pro-life objection to abortion?
They say that it is murder. They call doctors in abortion clinics baby-killers and display grotesque images of late-term abortions. I understand this; I don't agree with it, but I understand it. What I don't understand is the position that says abortion is okay in cases of rape or incest, but not under most other circumstances. Surely in such cases it is still murder, if it was murder in the first place? If the woman's life is not at risk, it cannot be termed an act of self defense, can it?

This position brings into play the concept of responsiblity. It implies that if a woman becomes pregnant unintentionally, that it is her own fault and she should have to live with the consequences. It offers the punishment of motherhood to those "irresponsible" enough to get pregnant. Tell me that that's not fucked up. Accidents happen. Condoms aren't a 100% garauntee, and neither is any other form of birth control. Saying "they deserve it" is cruel and ignorant.

If a child is the punishment for irresponsible behavior, what kind of life do you think that kid is going to have? It will grow up with parents who wish it had never been born. That isn't exactly an ideal environment for development. I really just don't get the thought process behind this stance on abortion.

My opinion:

A woman should be allowed to have an abortion when there is evidence of a rape.
A woman should be allowed to have an abortion when there is evidence of incest.
A woman should be allowed to have an abortion if she could die giving birth and there is proof of that.

My reasoning for abortion being illegal in other circumstances has nothing to do with the fetus being a person or having rights (because I don't believe that), I would pick someone who has been around for years and is known and loved over a fetus that doesn't even have a name or personality yet any day. I think abortion should be illegal in other circumstances because maybe it would teach teenagers or even single adults about the consequences of sex before marriage.

Sex inside of marriage has the same consequences. And sex outside of marriage is not illegal. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and people do have to deal with the consequences. Having to get an abortion is a consequence.
You are still offering the child as a punishment for the "irresponsible" parents, and I'd like you to tell me how that isn't fucked up.

What is the pro-life objection to abortion?
They say that it is murder. They call doctors in abortion clinics baby-killers and display grotesque images of late-term abortions. I understand this; I don't agree with it, but I understand it. What I don't understand is the position that says abortion is okay in cases of rape or incest, but not under most other circumstances. Surely in such cases it is still murder, if it was murder in the first place? If the woman's life is not at risk, it cannot be termed an act of self defense, can it?

This position brings into play the concept of responsiblity. It implies that if a woman becomes pregnant unintentionally, that it is her own fault and she should have to live with the consequences. It offers the punishment of motherhood to those "irresponsible" enough to get pregnant. Tell me that that's not fucked up. Accidents happen. Condoms aren't a 100% garauntee, and neither is any other form of birth control. Saying "they deserve it" is cruel and ignorant.

If a child is the punishment for irresponsible behavior, what kind of life do you think that kid is going to have? It will grow up with parents who wish it had never been born. That isn't exactly an ideal environment for development. I really just don't get the thought process behind this stance on abortion.

There's always the option of adoption. It's possible to find a family who's having trouble conceiving months in advance to plan the whole thing out.

No, I don't like abortion, and I already said why so I'll spare you the details. Why is it so bad to want the use abortion as an opprotunity for a last-resort (when possible)? It's not a pretty option no matter what, and certainly better than if the kid would be better off not alive, but there are other options out there for some people. Not everyone, but some that just aren't looking at it that way.

Which, of course, means abortion can't be government regulated..

..Now for whoever said that their can be government provided tests to see if the woman was lying ... why would you want that? That would take loads of government money when it's sorely needed in other places (i.e. education) and it's a huge infringement on people's rights. I said before that I don't like abortion because I see the fetus as a human, but that doesn't mean other people do. And I know that.

That's the fantastic thing about living in a "free" country, that your leaders don't shove their ideas down your and your neighbor's throats. You're free to live by your own morals and decisions.

Even if you illegalize it, people are still going to have abortions... or just abandon the child.

Even if you illegalize it, people are still going to have abortions... or just abandon the child.

Yeah, abandoning the child would be worse, I changed my mind, legalize abortion for any situation. Like other people said, it's the woman's choice.

There's always the option of adoption. It's possible to find a family who's having trouble conceiving months in advance to plan the whole thing out.
The woman still has to endure the pregnancy itself. Pregnancy makes irreversible changes to a woman's body. It can ruin the life of someone depending on their physical ability as a career or scholarship opportunity. There is also a reason that abortions are confidential, and that is that people can be ostracized for having been pregnant outside of marriage. That and basic privacy.

It's not a pretty option no matter what, and certainly better than if the kid would be better off not alive, but there are other options out there for some people. Not everyone, but some that just aren't looking at it that way.
Which, of course, means abortion can't be government regulated..
If it can't be government regulated, that means it must be made entirely legal. People generally do regard abortion as a last resort. And if they don't, they can't be forced to see it that way. Especially not by a government that can't regulate the issue in question.
I said before that I don't like abortion because I see the fetus as a human, but that doesn't mean other people do. And I know that.
...
You're free to live by your own morals and decisions.
Whoa man, if you think it is murder, you shouldn't just lapse into apathy because other people disagree with you. I disagree with you, but I would be disgusted with someone who sanctioned something that he believed to be murder.
That's just the thing. People can only live by their own morals and decisions so far as it doesn't harm anyone else. Some people have no moral cumpunctions against theft and assault. Does that mean they should be allowed to indulge in those activities? Exercise rationality, but don't allow other people to override your opinions.

I've read the other topic "Abortionists: Explain yourselves." If you haven't read the first post in the topic, it goes like this:



Now, in today's world, people are ****ed up. This posts talks as if all expecting women are the beacons of light. It's not like that.

First off, I'd like to know HOW we are to know whether or not a woman is raped? Sure, many rapes are done in dark alleys at night, but not all of them. Some are done in the backseats or cars, behind closed doors, etc. Sometimes between a woman and her boyfriend.

So, what if such a woman suddenly hated her boyfriend following their...ahem...venture into pleasure? She could easily tell off that her boyfriend "raped" her! Simple as that. Now we got a woman who demands an abortion for a rape that never happened, and police are frantically trying to figure out who was right. Imagine 30 Michael Jackson cases happening at once. Not pretty eh?

Now, for incest. Perhaps the "victim" was doing something similar or equal to the above? Now we got all those consequences PLUS some confused children watching the news.

And for the "mother suffering serious injury." Can the pain suffered during childbirth not be called "a form of pain"? It seems to me that any woman can simply say this and get off easy.

So it's not the victims who I'm against here, it's the pretending-victims and the downright liars that I want to keep out. You know the type of world we live in where people lie to keep a buck. Imagine how many lies a woman would do so she wouldn't have to have a baby. Imagine how many lies a guy would do so his girl wouldn't have the baby. People abuse things, I don't see why we should give them this opportunity. Better to just plain legalize abortion and prevent millions of dollars and weeks of testing and reassurance so that the real victims get what they need A.S.A.P.

And I hate jumping into topics after 4832098402398 pages, so that's why I made this one here.

A woman should have an abortion whenever she wants. It's not up to the government to decide who can/cannot have an abortion. It's her body and she has every right in the world to do what the hell she can to it.

I do not agree with religious fundamentalists who claim life begins at conception. To me, that's a load of shit. Women should NOT be banned from getting abortions because of some RW religious fundies. They have NO RIGHT to dictate what a woman can do.

God, do I ever hate them... :mad:

Even if you illegalize it, people are still going to have abortions... or just abandon the child.

Remember reading about "back alley abortions"? Some women who went to get them died because they were in unsanitary conditions and were with nothing but coat hangers, which badly damaged the woman.

Today, if a woman gets an abortion, there's almost a 99.9999999% chance she'll survive it, just for the fact that the instruments used are sanitary and safe to use.

If abortion is made illegal because of some RW fundies, how are they going to live with themselves when women are getting abortions in back alleys and dying? Or would they not care?

To me, it seems all they care about is the fetus and not the mother. They also only care about telling women what they can't/can do to their uterus. It's like the uterus isn't a part of the women anymore, but instead, it's the business of the RW fundies. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

The woman still has to endure the pregnancy itself. Pregnancy makes irreversible changes to a woman's body. It can ruin the life of someone depending on their physical ability as a career or scholarship opportunity. There is also a reason that abortions are confidential, and that is that people can be ostracized for having been pregnant outside of marriage. That and basic privacy.

If it can't be government regulated, that means it must be made entirely legal. People generally do regard abortion as a last resort. And if they don't, they can't be forced to see it that way. Especially not by a government that can't regulate the issue in question.

Whoa man, if you think it is murder, you shouldn't just lapse into apathy because other people disagree with you. I disagree with you, but I would be disgusted with someone who sanctioned something that he believed to be murder.
That's just the thing. People can only live by their own morals and decisions so far as it doesn't harm anyone else. Some people have no moral cumpunctions against theft and assault. Does that mean they should be allowed to indulge in those activities? Exercise rationality, but don't allow other people to override your opinions.

Apathy isn't what I intended. I'm just saying that while -I- don't like it, I'm basing it on very strong opinions I know that not everyone follows. Isn't it pointless to try and shove morals down other people's throats? I hate abortion, I really do. But I love our government's (supposed) freedoms equally as much as I hate abortion.

It's hard to explain online. I also don't have extra energy to get all spitting-mad online over a topic I won't win, either. I reserve that energy for people in real life.

I would say it isn't a human life until it becomes conscious, self-aware, and sentient.

So.. what? Ten months old, maybe a year? Sounds good. Maybe not even until they can talk?

An infant barely has a self of which to be aware.

So.. what? Ten months old, maybe a year? Sounds good. Maybe not even until they can talk?

An infant barely has a self of which to be aware.

Sure, why not? :D

If you support 'abortion in the case of rape', you are indirectly supporting late term abortions.

Because, presumably you mean 'in cases where the rapist has been founs guilty'; since otherwise any woman could claim rape.

Now, tell me: how long is a rape trial? Including the various appeals? 12 weeks? 18 weeks? or well past the current cut-off date for abortions where the mother is not at risk?

Children should not be used as a 'punishment'. If a mother wants an abortion, she is not *fit* to be a mother (if social services find a mother who claims to want her children dead, they'll be taken away).

Pro-lifers advocate adoption, pro-choice advocate adoption as one option, and abortion as another. Whether one is right or wrong is irrelevent. The point is that the GOVERNMENT should not be attemtping to remove the right to make the choice.

If you want to make a difference to a child's life, go out and adopt a child. Or offer to pay more tax to support single parents (something I NEVER hear anti-abortioners offering to do). Don't brow beat the irresponsible teens who get no sex-ed due to a lack of school funding (and right wing interference). And CERTAINLY don't brow beat the responsible adults who used various forms of contraception, who happened to be unlucky. Just because YOU believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral gives you no right to inflict that judgement onto anyone.

It's what we call a personal belief, and the world would be much better off if people kept them just that: personal.

My reasoning for abortion being illegal in other circumstances has nothing to do with the fetus being a person or having rights (because I don't believe that), I would pick someone who has been around for years and is known and loved over a fetus that doesn't even have a name or personality yet any day. I think abortion should be illegal in other circumstances because maybe it would teach teenagers or even single adults about the consequences of sex before marriage
Of course! That explains why there was never a single case of unwanted pregnancy before abortions were invented, although why anyone invented abortions that no one wanted (because without abortions people were taught what would happen and so never got into a situation where they needed abortions) remains a mystery...
And yes clearly if someone becomes pregnant when they did not intend to, the child should be used as a tool to teach others not to. That is exactly the purpose for such children being born, to live a life of misery in order to show others not to do as their parents did. Anyone who thinks this is unreasonable is simply not heeding the Christian doctrine re sins of the father (or mother as the case may be). Also anyone who thinks it's a bit off that the mother and child get to be the example while the father gets off scott free is just picking holes....I mean just because there is no justification for forcing a life of suffering on an unwanted child while one of the 'perpetrators' (the father) gets off scott free, doesnt mean it's not a good idea.....right?

Adolf Hitler was pro-life,

Adolf Hitler was pro-life,

You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair they made the Jews wear...
"Office Space"

My opinion:
I think abortion should be illegal in other circumstances because maybe it would teach teenagers or even single adults about the consequences of sex before marriage.

Surely, by then... it's already too late?

And I hardly think that childbirth should be used as a 'punishment' or 'teaching aid', if for no other reason than: what will happen to the child that is used as a 'stick' to 'reprimand' irresponsible teens?

Thirdly, sex should be only for the marriage bed, with two adults that are aware a baby is possible and have the money to support a baby and a family.

This way is the right way, that would happen in the perfect world.

a) Who says that your 'world' is a perfect world?

b) What do you base your 'marriage bed' idea on?

c) Does this mean you are in favour of gay marriage, so that they can only have sex in their marriage bed?

Yeah, abandoning the child would be worse, I changed my mind, legalize abortion for any situation. Like other people said, it's the woman's choice.

Thank you, Suicidal Librarians: for renewing my faith that people CAN change their minds when presented with a logical argument.

Uh, yeah, I knew you were being sarcasitic. *rereads my reply* Hmm, don't see anything that implied otherwise.
But anyway, fine, I retract my statement about genetics. DNA doesn't factor in. At all.

Oh, sorry. My apologies. You do get sarcasm; instead, you just don't bother to read what's being written.

I specifically stated, "an identified 'stupid' gene..." This means a specific gene, identified by verifiable research, that causes stupidity independent of other factors and for which a person with a low I.Q. might be tested.

Also, you might want to look into the concept of "regression to the mean."




Funny, I wouldn't expect an avowed libertarian to be a eugenicist.

Better to just plain legalize abortion and prevent millions of dollars and weeks of testing and reassurance so that the real victims get what they need A.S.A.P.

And I hate jumping into topics after 4832098402398 pages, so that's why I made this one here.

*wonders if she should tell colodia that abortion is legal in the united states and that the theorizing of teenagers on internet forums isnt going to change it*

Surely, by then... it's already too late?

And I hardly think that childbirth should be used as a 'punishment' or 'teaching aid', if for no other reason than: what will happen to the child that is used as a 'stick' to 'reprimand' irresponsible teens?
Childbirth used to be considered that because of Eve's so-called "sins"

I dont think the child should be used as a 'punishment' however since the teenagers are underage one could make the argue they'd have to appeal to their parents over abortion, who (in many times I'm guessing) would not want to abort the child

*wonders if she should tell colodia that abortion is legal in the united states and that the theorizing of teenagers on internet forums isnt going to change it*
I meant in general, keep abortion legalized.

Oh, and just because we're teenagers on an internet forum doesn't mean none of us will take this knowledge and vote. Ever read my sig also? I plan on pushing for Presidency. And this is the type of things I must get into at an early age to make my case in the debates on October 2040.

I meant in general, keep abortion legalized.

Oh, and just because we're teenagers on an internet forum doesn't mean none of us will take this knowledge and vote. Ever read my sig also? I plan on pushing for Presidency. And this is the type of things I must get into at an early age to make my case in the debates on October 2040.
oh im glad you reminded me

*jots it all down in case she needs to use it in 2040*

oh im glad you reminded me

*jots it all down in case she needs to use it in 2040*
:D

well when we're in WW3 and a nuclear bomb goes off 2 miles from where you are, you can at least say "Hey, That ****** was right! He actually did it!"


no, not a flame.

:D

well when we're in WW3 and a nuclear bomb goes off 2 miles from where you are, you can at least say "Hey, That ****** was right! He actually did it!"


no, not a flame.
nuking a nursing home will NOT get you elected

nuking a nursing home will NOT get you elected
lmao...

not that i disagreed with your reasoning
what you said was very true. there is no sense making women lie to get an abortion
in the old days there was an exemption "to save the life of the mother" so a woman would go to a sympathetic doctor who would claim that she would be suicidal if forced to carry the child to term. so she got an abortion
or women would go to states where it was legal
or they would do whatever it took to "lose the baby"