NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1307529,00.html

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict

Julian Borger in Washington
Saturday September 18, 2004
The Guardian

The comprehensive 15-month search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has concluded that the only chemical or biological agents that Saddam Hussein's regime was working on before last year's invasion were small quantities of poisons, most likely for use in assassinations.
A draft of the Iraq Survey Group's final report circulating in Washington found no sign of the alleged illegal stockpiles that the US and Britain presented as the justification for going to war, nor did it find any evidence of efforts to reconstitute Iraq's nuclear weapons programme.

It also appears to play down an interim report which suggested there was evidence that Iraq was developing "test amounts" of ricin for use in weapons. Instead, the ISG report says in its conclusion that there was evidence to suggest the Iraqi regime planned to restart its illegal weapons programmes if UN sanctions were lifted.

Charles Duelfer, the head of the ISG, has said he intends to deliver his final report by the end of the month. It is likely to become a heated issue in the election campaign.

President George Bush now admits that stockpiles have not been found in Iraq but claimed as recently as Thursday that "Saddam Hussein had the capability of making weapons, and he could have passed that capability on to the enemy".

The draft Duelfer report, according to the New York Times, finds no evidence of a capability, but only of an intention to rebuild that capability once the UN embargo had been removed and Iraq was no longer the target of intense international scrutiny.

The finding adds weight to Mr Bush's assertions on the long-term danger posed by the former Iraqi leader, but it also suggests that, contrary to the administration's claims, diplomacy and containment were working prior to the invasion.

The draft report was handed to British, US and Australian experts at a meeting in London earlier this month, according to the New York Times. It largely confirms the findings of Mr Duelfer's predecessor, David Kay, who concluded "we were almost all wrong" in thinking Saddam had stockpiled weapons. The Duelfer report goes into greater detail.

Mr Kay's earlier findings mentioned the existence of a network of laboratories run by the Iraqi intelligence service, and suggested that the regime could be producing "test amounts" of chemical weapons and researching the use of ricin in weapons.

Subsequent inspections of the clandestine labs, under Mr Duelfer's leadership, found they were capable of producing small quantities of lethal chemical and biological agents, more useful for assassinations of individuals than for inflicting mass casualties.

Mr Duelfer, according to the draft, does not exclude the possibility that some weapons materials could have been smuggled out of Iraq before the war, a possibility raised by the administration and its supporters. However, the report apparently produces no significant evidence to support the claim. Nor does it find any evidence of any action by the Saddam regime to convert dual-use industrial equipment to weapons production.

"I think we know exactly how this is going to play out," said Joseph Cirincione, a proliferation expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

"You'll see a very elaborate spin operation. But there's not much new here from what the ISG reported before," he said. "There are still no weapons, no production of weapons and no programmes to begin the production of weapons. What we're left with here is that Saddam Hussein might have had the desire to rebuild the capability to build those weapons."

"Well, lots of people have desire for these weapons. Lots of people have intent. But that's not what we went to war for."

The motives for war, meanwhile, came under fresh scrutiny last night as the Telegraph reported that Tony Blair was warned in Foreign Office papers a year before the invasion of the scale of dealing with a post-Saddam Iraq.

The Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman, Sir Menzies Campbell, said that if authenticated, the papers "demonstrate that the government agreed with the Bush administration on regime change in Iraq more than a year before military action was taken".

Mr Duelfer, who is reported to still be in Baghdad, did not respond to a request for an interview on the question of WMD yesterday.

Earlier this year, he told the Guardian that he expected his report would leave "some unanswered questions".

badoosh

badoosh



What the hell does that mean? You said that on another thread too lol.

another way of bumping

another way of bumping



Oh (raises eyebrow questioningly).

*sees your raised eyebrow and raises you another eyebrow*

Oh, so thats the way its going to be? Well, ummmm, oh god, President Bush is a good man because he kills all the bad people.

*sees your raised eyebrow and raises you another eyebrow*

**matches both eyebrows**

**glances at cards**

**throws in a sneer and chuckle**

*Sweating like a pig, then makes an excuss to go to the bathroom*. I really suck at poker!

*pulls out a six shooter*

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict? So it's now officially true for Bush what we already know of Blair, that he's a bloody LIAR.

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict? So it's now officially true for Bush what we already know of Blair, that he's a bloody LIAR.

Gee, no shit ;)

**already gun under the table ready to fire at the slightest twitch**

So...what'cha got?

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict? So it's now officially true for Bush what we already know of Blair, that he's a bloody LIAR.


*Shaking finger back and forth*. Silly rabbit, "Tricks" are for kids.

I got your daughter outside with a couple of my fellas. You better watch yo'self partner...

Oh, so thats the way its going to be? Well, ummmm, oh god, President Bush is a good man because he kills all the bad people.
I'm sorry you must be lost, I'm sure you didnt mean to imply that all those self sacrificing US soldiers Bush sent to their deaths and effectively killed because of his Presidential 'errors' were all bad people...

**hears a few gunshots**

Really? 'Cause I've got a few men on the roof, and I think you're starting to run out of options...

**already gun under the table ready to fire at the slightest twitch**

So...what'cha got?



*Considers folding, then realizes that he the third person in the game and doesn't have a hope in hell of winning, plus too stupid to kidnap anyone of great importance to either Commie or Goed*.

I'm sorry you must be lost, I'm sure you didnt mean to imply that all those self sacrificing US soldiers Bush sent to their deaths and effectively killed because of his Presidential 'errors' were all bad people...



ITS A JOKE!!! I hate Bush.

*gently fumbles with a switch under his seat and activates his jetpack*

*Not so gently gets out of his chair and runs out front door*

*flies back and takes a steaming crap on Goed, pigeon-style*

*flies back and takes a steaming crap on Goed, pigeon-style*



*Holy shit*

*finds a priest*

*stumbles in drunkenly, looks around, throws a royal flush on the table and yells "HAH!"*

In regards to the article though - not too bad. What it really does is just back up what most un-indoctrinated Americans already know. Saddam was never a real threat the to U.S. Go figure.

*flies back and takes a steaming crap on Goed, pigeon-style*

**reaches into coat, pulls out two six shooters, hits the jetpack on the first shot, sending Commie ungracefully to the ground**

That was my new coat...I LIKED that coat. You just made a big mistake, pal...

**hears another gunshot**

Well I'll be. My boys up top must've heard our little alteration. They're all nice and ready up there. You wanna jet out? Good luck making it far.

**glances at Terra** You, stay here. You go running out, you'll have a bullet in your scalp.

*promptly dies*

*stumbles in drunkenly, looks around, throws a royal flush on the table and yells "HAH!"*

In regards to the article though - not too bad. What it really does is just back up what most un-indoctrinated Americans already know. Saddam was never a real threat the to U.S. Go figure.

**grabs Blarg's arm, letting two aces and a king fall out of his sleeve**

Oooooh, so you be a cheatin' man? I think Commie can agree with me here-we don't be taking kindly to cheatin' men 'round these parts...

**grabs Blarg's arm, letting two aces and a king fall out of his sleeve**

Oooooh, so you be a cheatin' man? I think Commie can agree with me here-we don't be taking kindly to cheatin' men 'round these parts...



I say we burn him at the stake and hang him after that.

*tries to agree but ends up twitching feebly in a pool of his own blood. he didn't even have time to wipe his own arse*

ITS A JOKE!!! I hate Bush.
Lier! Liberals dont tell jokes, they are too busy conspiring to steal signs from young children, and come up with evil plans to spread the scourge of health care...

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict? So it's now officially true for Bush what we already know of Blair, that he's a bloody LIAR.


tell me. does being fed wrong information make you a liar? Do you think that only president bush and blair thought there were WMD? well, when US, Russian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and English Intel says that someone has WMD do you just sit on your ass? my question to you is just how many more different sources of information would you have needed. and if you did need more sources what would that make your stance on national defense? I mean if you were a fireman and 5 people run up to you and say that a building is on fire, do you say, well hmmmm maybe if i can get another few people to tell me the same, i'll send out the firetrucks. Yes we know the info was wrong. But it was the intel of the time. And the president had to act. I applaude him for his action with the INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE. And shame on him for removing a righteous man like saddam anyway. it was so unnecissary. The dead in Iraq would turn over in their mass graves with it wasnt jam packed with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies. :rolleyes:

Lier! Liberals dont tell jokes, they are too busy conspiring to steal signs from young children, and come up with evil plans to spread the scourge of health care...


I'm a bloody conservative, you can ask anyone!

I say we burn him at the stake and hang him after that.

Burn him? What are you, some religious nut? Look, you play the cards-and **gestures towards Commie** go through all the dangers-you learn trustin' God ain't nothing but a fool thing to do. You count on your cards, yer hands, and what luck the lady'll give ya.

Hangin' though, that sounds good...

Burn him? What are you, some religious nut? Look, you play the cards-and **gestures towards Commie** go through all the dangers-you learn trustin' God ain't nothing but a fool thing to do. You count on your cards, yer hands, and what luck the lady'll give ya.

Hangin' though, that sounds good...


The joke is that if he's already burned to death, whats the point of hainging him?

tell me. does being fed wrong information make you a liar? Do you think that only president bush and blair thought there were WMD? well, when US, Russian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and English Intel says that someone has WMD do you just sit on your ass? my question to you is just how many more different sources of information would you have needed. and if you did need more sources what would that make your stance on national defense? I mean if you were a fireman and 5 people run up to you and say that a building is on fire, do you say, well hmmmm maybe if i can get another few people to tell me the same, i'll send out the firetrucks. Yes we know the info was wrong. But it was the intel of the time. And the president had to act. I applaude him for his action with the INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE. And shame on him for removing a righteous man like saddam anyway. it was so unnecissary. The dead in Iraq would turn over in their mass graves with it wasnt jam packed with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies. :rolleyes:Nonsense. Even when Powell sat in the UN security council showing those silly photos everyone knew it was not accurate. You know it's all a question of credibility. Blix is a decent man, while the Bushies are just a bunch of overloud rats.
BTW you can't make a case for WMD by talking about mass graves. And it will not be long until the US has produced enough graves in Irag to call them a mass.

Iraq had no WMD: the final verdict? So it's now officially true for Bush what we already know of Blair, that he's a bloody LIAR.
And that's no lie.

I'm a bloody conservative, you can ask anyone!
Worse lier! Conservatives dont tell jokes, they are too busy finding little girls they give signs to...

Worse lier! Conservatives dont tell jokes, they are too busy finding little girls they give signs to...



Hey, she wanted the sign.....

The evidence for WMDs was not that impressive to begin with. Not to mention, isn't common sense to check (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:NVWirO5joVsJ:www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/11/1089484242583.html+Colin+Powell+WMDs+lies&hl=en) your (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VGy1mk90eO8J:www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/10/senate.intelligence/+Curve+Ball+WMDs&hl=en) sources (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040607fa_fact1_d)?
Whining "bad information" doesn't absolve you from responsibility for your actions.

-- b-but he planned to get t-them!
Yeah, him and everyone else (http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/index.htm). Iran (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3664660.stm)'s just wait to be "liberated" right now! North Korea (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/24/nkorea.us/) asks "Now what are you going to do about it?"

The evidence for WMDs was not that impressive to begin with. Not to mention, isn't common sense to check (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:NVWirO5joVsJ:www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/11/1089484242583.html+Colin+Powell+WMDs+lies&hl=en) your (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:VGy1mk90eO8J:www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/10/senate.intelligence/+Curve+Ball+WMDs&hl=en) sources (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040607fa_fact1_d)?
Whining "bad information" doesn't absolve you from responsibility for your actions.

-- b-but he planned to get t-them!
Yeah, him and everyone else (http://cns.miis.edu/research/wmdme/index.htm). Iran (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3664660.stm)'s just wait to be "liberated" right now! North Korea (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/east/04/24/nkorea.us/) asks "Now what are you going to do about it?"

Brilliant post :D

tell me. does being fed wrong information make you a liar? Do you think that only president bush and blair thought there were WMD? well, when US, Russian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and English Intel says that someone has WMD do you just sit on your ass? my question to you is just how many more different sources of information would you have needed. and if you did need more sources what would that make your stance on national defense? I mean if you were a fireman and 5 people run up to you and say that a building is on fire, do you say, well hmmmm maybe if i can get another few people to tell me the same, i'll send out the firetrucks. Yes we know the info was wrong. But it was the intel of the time. And the president had to act. I applaude him for his action with the INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE. And shame on him for removing a righteous man like saddam anyway. it was so unnecissary. The dead in Iraq would turn over in their mass graves with it wasnt jam packed with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies. :rolleyes:
fires dont cost 100s of billions of dollars 10000 iraqs dead 1000 us dead 100s of allied troop casualties and relief workers disappearing prisoners being tortured but wait funny that invasions of iraq do

Damn, this thread is hilarious!

*throws a grenade out*

I can't believe there has only been 1 pro-war dude here!

*shoots Kaneala with 2nd amendment protected 9mm*

Hey, I have intentions to make WMD's, so watcha gonna do bout it Bush? Huh?

*Fires AK-47 in the air*

tell me. does being fed wrong information make you a liar? Do you think that only president bush and blair thought there were WMD? well, when US, Russian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and English Intel says that someone has WMD do you just sit on your ass? my question to you is just how many more different sources of information would you have needed. and if you did need more sources what would that make your stance on national defense? I mean if you were a fireman and 5 people run up to you and say that a building is on fire, do you say, well hmmmm maybe if i can get another few people to tell me the same, i'll send out the firetrucks. Yes we know the info was wrong. But it was the intel of the time. And the president had to act. I applaude him for his action with the INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE. And shame on him for removing a righteous man like saddam anyway. it was so unnecissary. The dead in Iraq would turn over in their mass graves with it wasnt jam packed with hundreds of thousands of dead bodies. :rolleyes:
Fires are relatively simple to check. You go to the building and put the fire that is there, if any. Wars regarding WMD that had not been found at the time we invaded, and have not been found since, means that we ruined our reputation for a long time. Plenty of people were saying that there were no WMD in Iraq, but Bush did not want to hear them.

I bet all wars could be avoided if these tight arsed wankers would just chill and smoke a doobie. I reckon ol' W is so fucked off cause he's on a para trip after snorting too much coke.

I think we are at risk of forgetting the purpose of this thread.

The issue here is that Iraq had no MWD, and that evidence to the contrary was faked. The UK, and especially the US, screwed up and discredited themselves. Having the UN Secretary General smiling with amusement at a journalist and saying that the whole thing was a botched job should be a cause for constructive reflection, not boorish defensiveness.

I see it like this. Bush really believed that an active WMD program existed in Iraq. I think he knew for a fact that he did not have firm evidence of this, and figured that if everyone knew what he knew, that most people would not be as 'realistic' as Bush. I think Bush thought he knew better than all the 'plebs' he is President of. My opinion is that Bush was so convinced that there would be WMD in the Iraq, that he didnt care what the evidence did or didnt say, the evidence was irrelevent because he already 'knew' the 'truth', but he figured most Americans were too stupid to accept what he knew if they had exactly the same information as him, so he mislead everyone about the strength, validity and verifiability of the information, believing that it made no difference because unlike average joe American Bush was able to comprehend the 'truth' no matter what the evidence said, and once in Iraq those weapons God told Bush to go hunting would most certainly be there.

I think this kind of thinking isnt just restricted to Bush. The evidence is irrelevent....Bush supporters know what the know, and no amount of facts, evidence or reasoning will change that. It's important to remember that not only would Bush supporters have to take a blow to their ego (by admitting they were sucked in wholesale) in order to change their views now, they would also have to admit that they supported a war that was baseless and sent many people to their deaths, including apple pie American soldiers, and 1000's of civilions. I think most Bush supporters when faced with having to admit they were suckered and having to take stock of their part in supporting the actions that led to all these deaths, will just simply take the easy way out and ignore or 'rationalise' the facts. I dont think this tendancy is restricted to Bush supporters, but rather that given facts they are the ones with most need to employ such a tendancy right now.

Well, it's always a fair point, when you're convinced something is the case, you tend to interpret any evidence you receive to support your pre-existing conclusions.

*throws cards at other players, yells "HA suckers! Eat my throwing blades" Tries to run out door with money*

badoosh
You are missing a "b"

badboosh

did someone say duh yet because i sorta figured that out a year ago

Who's "final verdict" is this? Just a reporter's?

What if Saddam really did have them? In this case, better to worry too much, than too little.

did someone say duh yet because i sorta figured that out a year ago
Yup, I hear you. Especially when Bush wouldn't let the UN inspectors finish the great job they were doing.

Bush knew that the inspectors would not find any WMD, and then he would lose his ticket to launch an attack.

Most of us know that Bush is a moron, let's leave it at that.

*throws cards at other players, yells "HA suckers! Eat my throwing blades" Tries to run out door with money*

**grabs a card, throws it back, rips open the bag, and Blarg runs away sans cash**

Well, that was...uh...oh bloody hell, I'm just taking the money and leaving already.

**grabs a card, throws it back, rips open the bag, and Blarg runs away sans cash**

Well, that was...uh...oh bloody hell, I'm just taking the money and leaving already.



Wow, you managed to stay in the game for that long? I left hours ago to get drunk and pass out in some ditch.

What if Saddam really did have them? In this case, better to worry too much, than too little.
Yeah, but he didn't. And that does matter.

It's like you're a white police officer with a grudge against a local black kid with an criminal record. You're convinced that next time you see him, he's going to have a gun. So next time you see him, you shoot him dead. Then when a search of the body turns up no gun, you lie about seeing him have a gun. And when the inquiry concludes there was never a gun, it's not caution with someone who's been in trouble before, it's you shooting a black guy you didn't like. That, to put it mildly, is troubling. When you screw up, it's not what you felt at the time that really matters, it's what you've done and have to deal with.

Who's "final verdict" is this? Just a reporter's?

What if Saddam really did have them? In this case, better to worry too much, than too little.
NO!!! There is no if! The UN weapons inspection teams did an excellent job, and it is not Bush's job to conclude anything from evidence that is just not there. Bush lied and he knew it. And he WANTED THAT WAR, even before 9/11.

just people lie or tell the truth it all depends on who you believe and what you see because didnt the Iraqi information minister say"the infidels are commiting suicide at the gates"?

just people lie or tell the truth it all depends on who you believe and what you see because didnt the Iraqi information minister say"the infidels are commiting suicide at the gates"?
The infidels rather commited diplomatic suicide and national suicide aswell by inflaming the middle east. Great job. I know Bush will burn in the hell that does not exist. He's one of the few politicians who I would like to see assassinated to save the world from greater harm.

george bush isnt a good man im totally against him so should you be liberals rule join the left wing paradise.

We need to put the bush family in "work camps" so they can never infect the populace again with their monkey genes or steal another election!
Also lets put the Blairs, the Putins and the Burlosconi's in there too (i don't know how to spell burlosconi, okay!). Wouldn't the world just be a more peaceful place.

**grabs a card, throws it back, rips open the bag, and Blarg runs away sans cash**

Well, that was...uh...oh bloody hell, I'm just taking the money and leaving already.

HAHA! I WIN!