NationStates Jolt Archive

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=9&aid=D8560UAG0_story

Okay? Can you all just drop the argument already?

Really, now, do you think that will make any difference? Mere facts have never gotten in the way of beliefs before. I don't think I've ever met a person who supported one ideology/candidate/party, then learned something new, then started supporting another. People are just too stubborn. They'll say, "Yeah, but that doesn't mean he really deserved them!" or "Well, the entire U.S. Navy is in Kerry's pocket, because we all know his wife owns the entire world as an extention of a condiment company."

of course the entire navy is in john kerry's pocket, he is super politic man remember?

faster than a speeding bill
more powerful than the entire republican controlled government
able to leap supreme court decisions in a single bound

ITS SUPER POLITICAL KERRY!!!!

As a sperm, Kerry intentionally invaded an unarmed ovum in order to create a zygote, because even then, he wanted to become President.

It's funny, I think Republicans would have supported abortion in that case.

YOU MAKE AGOOD POINT Gymoor

As a sperm, Kerry intentionally invaded an unarmed ovum in order to create a zygote, because even then, he wanted to become President.

It's funny, I think Republicans would have supported abortion in that case.



Hmm, speaking of abortion, does'nt it seem wierd that the people who should've been Aborted are the ones protesting Abortions nowadays?

LOL this is awesome.

Ok, not to sound unpatriotic (I am anyway), but who cares if Kerry ever did anything? The US lost anyway, and whether Bush or Kerry actually went is irrelevant, as one (or two) man (men) would not have affected the ENTIRE losing war.

Unless, of course you have SUPER-POLITICAL Kerry, that Chess mentioned.

Funny, I don't see Gymoor calling for all those who express doubt about Bush's National Guard service,which has been repeatedly proven to be just as honorable as (if not more so, and definitely much longer than) Kerry's Vietnam service to shut up.

Then again, Dan Rather and all those who believe him (how many people now, 3?) remind me of those who play the Lotto who, when told that there is only a 1 in a million chance that they'll win the Jackpot, say "so you mean there IS a chance." I'd right now give 1 in a million odds that those "documents" are the real thing, and I am being generous.

In any case, both men served honorably. Time for everyone to move to a new topic.

Funny, I don't see Gymoor calling for all those who express doubt about Bush's National Guard service,which has been repeatedly proven to be just as honorable as (if not more so, and definitely much longer than) Kerry's Vietnam service to shut up.

Then again, Dan Rather and all those who believe him (how many people now, 3?) remind me of those who play the Lotto who, when told that there is only a 1 in a million chance that they'll win the Jackpot, say "so you mean there IS a chance." I'd right now give 1 in a million odds that those "documents" are the real thing, and I am being generous.

In any case, both men served honorably. Time for everyone to move to a new topic.
the so called short service was his SECOND term in vietnam, and bush only stayed in the tang long enough to get his wings, then immediately lost them, good way to dodge having to do ANYTHING

Kerry-led military junta for 2004!

Funny, I don't see Gymoor calling for all those who express doubt about Bush's National Guard service,which has been repeatedly proven to be just as honorable as (if not more so, and definitely much longer than) Kerry's Vietnam service to shut up.

Then again, Dan Rather and all those who believe him (how many people now, 3?) remind me of those who play the Lotto who, when told that there is only a 1 in a million chance that they'll win the Jackpot, say "so you mean there IS a chance." I'd right now give 1 in a million odds that those "documents" are the real thing, and I am being generous.

In any case, both men served honorably. Time for everyone to move to a new topic.

Okay so we can discard the forged Nat'l Guard documents. Please, then, show the official records that account for Bush's missing time.

Kerry's medals = fully documented and verified by the Navy, and they show exactly where Kerry was.

Bush's guard duty = the documents are incomplete, and those that exist leave vital questions unanswered.

Next!

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=9&aid=D8560UAG0_story

Okay? Can you all just drop the argument already?

Conservatives can never shut up about anything. They still blame all of America's problems on Clinton's Penis to this very day. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

the so called short service was his SECOND term in vietnam, and bush only stayed in the tang long enough to get his wings, then immediately lost them, good way to dodge having to do ANYTHING
"SECOND term in Vietnam"? Holy Cow, I didn't know that sitting on a ship off the coast of South Vietnam counted as a tour IN Vietnam!

Survey sez...

<BUZZZZZZZ>Oooh, so close!

Meanwhile, let's see...Bush attended basic training and officer training in 1968...check. From officer training he went to flight school, which lasted a year...check. We're up to 1969, then Bush spent 6 months of fighter training, and we're in 1970. He then flew interceptor alerts for the Texas Air National Guard from 1970 until 1973, when he stopped flying to go to Alabama (which had a totally different type of aircraft) and he left the Air National Guard in 1974....check.

So, 1970 to 1973 (his time flying for the Air National Guard, not counting flight school)...nope, 3 years of flying does NOT quite equal "immediately lost them." Unless you're Dan Rather.

Oh, btw, Bush flew in the Air National Guard longer than Kerry served in the Navy...flight training alone was 3 times longer than the time Kerry was actually in Vietnam. Just so you know.

So, survey sez...

<BUZZZZZZZZZ> Sorry, try again.

Yes, but we know Kerry was in Vietnam the whole time...

Mere facts have never gotten in the way of beliefs before.

facts?! bah, you can prove anything with facts...

There are actually rumors that Karl Rove was the one who forged the documents about bush's service in the ANG, in which case he gets the SAB award

"SECOND term in Vietnam"? Holy Cow, I didn't know that sitting on a ship off the coast of South Vietnam counted as a tour IN Vietnam!

Survey sez...

<BUZZZZZZZ>Oooh, so close!

Meanwhile, let's see...Bush attended basic training and officer training in 1968...check. From officer training he went to flight school, which lasted a year...check. We're up to 1969, then Bush spent 6 months of fighter training, and we're in 1970. He then flew interceptor alerts for the Texas Air National Guard from 1970 until 1973, when he stopped flying to go to Alabama (which had a totally different type of aircraft) and he left the Air National Guard in 1974....check.

So, 1970 to 1973 (his time flying for the Air National Guard, not counting flight school)...nope, 3 years of flying does NOT quite equal "immediately lost them." Unless you're Dan Rather.

Oh, btw, Bush flew in the Air National Guard longer than Kerry served in the Navy...flight training alone was 3 times longer than the time Kerry was actually in Vietnam. Just so you know.

So, survey sez...

<BUZZZZZZZZZ> Sorry, try again.

True.

However, one fact remains. Kerry for what ever the service record still went to Nam and the shrub hid from it.

The good news about this story is that not only does it clear the good name of Kerry, it allows everyone to put this issue aside and concentrate on Bush's dismal record as President.

This should be an interesting month coming up!!

True.

However, one fact remains. Kerry for what ever the service record still went to Nam and the shrub hid from it.
So, service in the Guard or Reserves equalled dodging the draft and running to Canada?

Furthermore, Bushes time IS still in question as to why he was grounded by the Air National Guard, and wether or not he served his required number of days.
By his own admittance it was most likely due to failing drug tests.
At that point in his life Bush admits to using cocaine, and abusing alchohol.

Yes, but we know Kerry was in Vietnam the whole time...
I thought he said he was in Cambodia over Christmas 1968, after President Nixon sent him there? Isn't that memory seared - seared, in his mind? After all, wasn't he also on the ground in Vietnam when he heard about MLK's assassination?

Oh, wait...both of those have been proven to be Kerry lies that he's had to retract.

And, I truly have a problem with a military "leader" who manages to get himself wounded 3 times in 4 months (even if at least one of those wounds is no bigger than a shaving nick, and none of them required hospitalization,) and immediately demands to be sent home.

Furthermore, Bushes time IS still in question as to why he was grounded by the Air National Guard, and wether or not he served his required number of days.Simple question...did he get the required number of attendance points in 1973 and 1974? Yes.

By his own admittance it was most likely due to failing drug tests."Most likely" won't get you very far in any court, and the court of public opinion is no different.
At that point in his life Bush admits to using cocaine, and abusing alchohol.Newsflash: most fighter pilots (and I know a few...dozen) abuse alcohol. As for the drug allegations, he has never admitted to cocaine use...unless you ask Kitty Kelley, who wrote that she heard someone say that someone else thought they had heard about Bush using it at Camp David. Again, pretty flimsy stuff...kinda like the C...BS documents.

So, service in the Guard or Reserves equalled dodging the draft and running to Canada?

No, those that ran to Canada didn't have connections to get them one of the most coveted positions in the guard.

The fact remains; join the guard and avoid Nam.

Some people used college to avoid it; others ran to canada.

The shrub used the guard to avoid a crappy war.

The good news about this story is that not only does it clear the good name of Kerry, it allows everyone to put this issue aside and concentrate on Bush's dismal record as President.

This should be an interesting month coming up!!
Oh yeah, very. After all, we can also really examine exactly what is Jean Francois Kerry's message (if he actually does settle on one.) Here's a very nice article (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/040927/opinion/27glo.htm) attempting to explain his message.

No, those that ran to Canada didn't have connections to get them one of the most coveted positions in the guard.

The fact remains; join the guard and avoid Nam.

Some people used college to avoid it; others ran to canada.

The shrub used the guard to avoid a crappy war.
And yet, he SERVED his country...just like Kerry did. Point, set, match.

I thought he said he was in Cambodia over Christmas 1968, after President Nixon sent him there? Isn't that memory seared - seared, in his mind? After all, wasn't he also on the ground in Vietnam when he heard about MLK's assassination?

Oh, wait...both of those have been proven to be Kerry lies that he's had to retract.

And, I truly have a problem with a military "leader" who manages to get himself wounded 3 times in 4 months (even if at least one of those wounds is no bigger than a shaving nick, and none of them required hospitalization,) and immediately demands to be sent home.

Have you ever risked your life for your country?

Have you ever risked your life to save another human beings life, while the enemy is firing at you?

Also consider the following:

Under Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year. (This wasn't just a statistical concern; one of the swift boat sailors was his son, Lieutenant Elmo Zumwalt III. )

Would you accept those odds?

I thought he said he was in Cambodia over Christmas 1968, after President Nixon sent him there? Isn't that memory seared - seared, in his mind? After all, wasn't he also on the ground in Vietnam when he heard about MLK's assassination?

Oh, wait...both of those have been proven to be Kerry lies that he's had to retract.

And, I truly have a problem with a military "leader" who manages to get himself wounded 3 times in 4 months (even if at least one of those wounds is no bigger than a shaving nick, and none of them required hospitalization,) and immediately demands to be sent home.

Christmas in Cambodia and the shrub was hunting for the Cong in the states. Well when he was on the job.

Move on.

The military record of both is a waste of time and takes away from the issues that should be argued. Economics and job creation, security and dealing with global terrorism.

Have you ever risked your life for your country?Actually, yes I have. 10 years in the service.

Have you ever risked your life to save another human beings life, while the enemy is firing at you? Again, yes I have. Have YOU?

Also consider the following:

Under Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year. (This wasn't just a statistical concern; one of the swift boat sailors was his son, Lieutenant Elmo Zumwalt III. )

Would you accept those odds?
And just what were the odds of getting three small wounds, that would not require hospitalization? In fact, the doctor who treated Kerry for his first wound recalls he had trouble finding the actual wound. And just how many of the swift boat sailors demanded to be sent home as soon as they got their third wound? Even more, just how many had their words used by the North Vietnamese while torturing POW's at the Hanoi Hilton? How many met (illegally) with the VietCong and the North Vietnamese to negotiate (illegally and without authority)??

Christmas in Cambodia and the shrub was hunting for the Cong in the states. Well when he was on the job.

Move on.

The military record of both is a waste of time and takes away from the issues that should be argued. Economics and job creation, security and dealing with global terrorism.
BINGO!!!

to jump into this to a point i just needed to comment on something that was pointed out to me...while its all well and good to argue about the two canidates miliatry service this is not what the election is going to come down too...or at least not what it should come down too... the events we are talking about happened many years before some of the people voting in this election where even born and are less relevent to how these men will led our country then a whole lot of other issues that are being lost in this media smearing. .. Will the fact that at a young age these men made choices and may or may not have done somethings while in servecie that we agree with really change the election all that much.... other facts should be looked at here... like what they have done since entering politics since the start if this century maybe..or at least since 1986 when the youngest of our voters where born...really now...we are forgetting the real issues in an atempt to make one guy a hero and the other not..neither of which really should matter....

and i will say sorry now for the misspellings and such...

to jump into this to a point i just needed to comment on something that was pointed out to me...while its all well and good to argue about the two canidates miliatry service this is not what the election is going to come down too...or at least not what it should come down too... the events we are talking about happened many years before some of the people voting in this election where even born and are less relevent to how these men will led our country then a whole lot of other issues that are being lost in this media smearing. .. Will the fact that at a young age these men made choices and may or may not have done somethings while in servecie that we agree with really change the election all that much.... other facts should be looked at here... like what they have done since entering politics since the start if this century maybe..or at least since 1986 when the youngest of our voters where born...really now...we are forgetting the real issues in an atempt to make one guy a hero and the other not..neither of which really should matter....

and i will say sorry now for the misspellings and such...
The spelling errors are forgiven, since you have made a good set of points.

And yet, he SERVED his country...just like Kerry did. Point, set, match.

Really and that time off to work on a campaign was what?

Fact remains as Clinton said he dodged the war by hiding in the guard.

You said he SERVED the country.

Well lets compare him to my buddy who SERVED this country with two tours in Nam in the Rangers.

Who has done the greator service?

Now consider how this country treated and still treats the Nam vets. The veterens administration? Fuckers. With what my buddy went through and what he goes through with them.

Hmmm and yet the "Commander and Chief" cuts funding for the vets. The Bullshit argument of the WWII vets...fact is the Nam vets loose out....

Actually, yes I have. 10 years in the service.

Again, yes I have. Have YOU?


And just what were the odds of getting three small wounds, that would not require hospitalization? In fact, the doctor who treated Kerry for his first wound recalls he had trouble finding the actual wound. And just how many of the swift boat sailors demanded to be sent home as soon as they got their third wound? Even more, just how many had their words used by the North Vietnamese while torturing POW's at the Hanoi Hilton? How many met (illegally) with the VietCong and the North Vietnamese to negotiate (illegally and without authority)??
So then you received decoration for your bravery? What did you receive?

So you don't regard Kerry as a hero?

BTW, all that Hanoi Hilton crap is just that....crap. Does one who fights for freedom of speech not have the right to express his beliefs, especially if he figures that it would save lives?

You actually are doing a disservice to any potential military recruit who might be reading these boards by trashing Kerry, especially since you say you served. :gundge:

A final point.

We really need to get away from the military record TV drama that is going on. Because of Ike, Washington, and Teddy, Americans have a myth about warrior Presidents. How many actually served? How many of them were good Presidents? A military man doesn't always make a great leader(General Grant). Some of the greatest things of this country were from men that did not and or could not serve(Madison).

Kerry went to Nam. His record sounds like a glory hunter. How many men went to war seeking glory? To label him a war hero or that he deserves to be showered with honor? Sorry I can't and will not.

The shrub served in guard. To label his actions honorable? Sorry I can't. I belive his motives were to avoid combat and to add to political asperations just like Kerry.

Both mens service at most should be respected and that is it. To label their actions as honorable is wrong.

My buddy's service was honorable. The Swift Boat Veterens for "Truth" service was honorable. Bush Sr. service was honorable.....

Because of Ike, Washington, and Teddy, Americans have a myth about warrior Presidents. How many actually served? How many of them were good Presidents?.
Presidential military service listing (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_U.S._Presidents_by_military_service). Which proves the validity of your point quite nicely.

Presidential military service listing (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_U.S._Presidents_by_military_service). Which proves the validity of your point quite nicely.

Whoops! For some reason I thought Madison never served. Dang! For all my Consititution talk; I am embarassed!

Thanks for the link!

Presidential military service listing (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/List_of_U.S._Presidents_by_military_service). Which proves the validity of your point quite nicely.
On a side note, I found this interesting in regards to Bill Clinton:

Upon leaving office, he had the highest approval ratings for a retiring President in U.S. history.

WTG Bill!! :D

who wants to know why the truth and proof wont do anything for kerry?

a lot of voting republicans, if not the upper majority, are like panhandlia: ignorant twerps

I'm not going to weigh in on this argument because it's silly, and it's been silly for a while-just make a request:

Stop spiking your own balls. ("Game set and match," "Nuff said," "Next") It looks stupid and makes you damn irrating. Not that you care. Just ranting...