NationStates Jolt Archive

So, I keep seeing people try to claim that there is only one creation story in the Bible although there are clearly two, both pretty allegorical - written by two different authors in two different styles in which things happen in very different orders. But I am going to attempt to combine the two stories.

Gen 1:3-5 God makes light and dark and seaparates them and it is the first day and it is good.

Gen 1:6-8 God makes the heavens and makes them separate from the water and it is good and it is the second day.

Gen 1:9-13 God makes the land separate from the waters and makes all the vegetation start growin gand it is good and it is the third day.

Gen 1:14-19 God makes the sun and the moon as separate lights for day and night and so we can tell the seasons and all that stuff and it is good and it is the fourth day.

Gen 1:20-23 God makes all the sea creatures (including all the sea monsters) and the birds and tells them to be fruitful and multiply and it is good and it is the fifth day.

Gen 1:24-31 God makes all the land animals and then makes humankind in God's image - makes them male and female - and tells them they shall have dominion over all the plants and animals. He also tells them to be fruitful and multiply. It is good and it is the sixth day.

Gen 2:1-4 God rests and consecrates the Sabbath. God looks back at what a good thing God has made and is glad that Creation is all done.


Up until here God is very majestic and powerful. In fact, one could say that God is all-powerful (perhaps because that is the point the author was trying to get across). Interestingly enough, humankind is the epoch of creation - the finishing touch, if you will. Nothing has gone wrong at all... yet.


Gen 2:5-2:6 All of a sudden there are no plants and no rain and no people to tend the plants. (One has to wonder where they all went, but I'm sure God just lost them.)

Gen 2:7 God decides that since all the rest of the people disappeared, only one will be necessary this time. So he makes just one man.

Gen 2:8-17 God makes Eden - makes plants grow out of the ground (since they had all disappeared) and makes rivers pop up to water the ground and puts Adam there to tend the garden [not to have dominion over it, mind you, but to tend it]

Gen 2:18-20 God decides Adam can't do it all on his own and that he needs a helper. So God starts making all the animals (since they, too, have disappeared from the Earth from when they were made before). Adam names all the animals, but (surprise!) none of them are suitable helpers. [Funny how God didn't know that ahead of time - being omniscient and all].

Gen 2:21-25 God realizes that all the other animals have male and female and that works out well, so God makes Adam go to sleep, takes a rib, and makes a female. Adam names her woman and the first marriage is born. Adam and Eve start tending the garden naked.

In this part, God seems a little bumbling. And one really must wonder what happened to all the plants and animals and people that were made in the first chapter. Of course, it would seem that the author of this part of the story was trying to say that all of creation was made for the usage of man (even woman). You can also see that the point was not that God was all-powerful, but - as demonstrated later - that man was given paradise and then fell from the grace of God. Very different stories and they still don't mesh well together, even in Cliff's Note version. Hmmmmm

For a second, I thought this thread was about Neon Genesis Evangelion and I got all excited. Oh well.

For a second, I thought this thread was about Neon Genesis Evangelion and I got all excited. Oh well.
:rolleyes: Shame on you! Gundam > Evangelion!

I thought it was going to be about the progressive rock group featuring Phil Collins, and Sega's 16 bit game system.

Shame on you! Gundam > Evangelion!

In truth, I haven't seen that much Evangelion, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that.

I thought it was going to be about the progressive rock group featuring Phil Collins, and Sega's 16 bit game system.

=) hehe.

:rolleyes: Shame on you! Gundam > Evangelion!
Both are very good.

So, I keep seeing people try to claim that there is only one creation story in the Bible although there are clearly two, both pretty allegorical - written by two different authors in two different styles in which things happen in very different orders. But I am going to attempt to combine the two stories.
[...]
Well, the first part is clearly a recollection of the Sumerian creation myth. With god flying over the primeval abyss and all.

Gen 2:5-2:6 All of a sudden there are no plants and no rain and no people to tend the plants. (One has to wonder where they all went, but I'm sure God just lost them.)
Here we call that "drought".

It's a literary device called the "flashback" ... works well in many stories.

For a second, I thought this thread was going to turn into an argument over Mobile Suit Gundam and Neon Genesis Evangelion.

That's nice...buuut:


1. What about Lillith? It's getting more and more to be common knowledge that Eve was Adam's Third wife. Stop forgetting this. Throw away your Bibles and get some Jewish Old Testaments if you want what religiously occured.

2. You can't have creationism without Lucifer's Rebellion.

3. The Trial of Samael existed before Lillith was created. This should be in there. It explains how all the animals received their names.

It's a literary device called the "flashback" ... works well in many stories.

Of course, flashback doesn't usually have things occurring in completely different orders.

1. What about Lillith? It's getting more and more to be common knowledge that Eve was Adam's Third wife. Stop forgetting this. Throw away your Bibles and get some Jewish Old Testaments if you want what religiously occured.

There is no mention of Lilith in Torah ... at all.

2. You can't have creationism without Lucifer's Rebellion.

There is no mention of Lucifer in Torah ... at all.

3. The Trial of Samael existed before Lillith was created. This should be in there. It explains how all the animals received their names.

Since there is no Lilith in creation, everything in history has happened prior to the creation of Lilith.

If you disagree with any of the above, great! However, I will need you to provide chapter and verse of where Lilith, Lucifer, and Samael appear with concern to creation.

Of course, flashback doesn't usually have things occurring in completely different orders.


It does if you change point of view. :)

It does if you change point of view. :)

Yes, but if an all-knowing God directly inspired the writing of Genesis, it would all be from that all-knowing point of view, and thus would not contradict itself. =)

Yes, but if an all-knowing God directly inspired the writing of Genesis, it would all be from that all-knowing point of view, and thus would not contradict itself. =)

Well ... that's assuming God to be all-knowing. If you read the Bible and take it seriously, then God really is just sort of a semi-benevolent putz. At least, that's how God is portrayed. It's all subjective, I suppose.

Well ... that's assuming God to be all-knowing. If you read the Bible and take it seriously, then God really is just sort of a semi-benevolent putz. At least, that's how God is portrayed. It's all subjective, I suppose.

Well, those who try and claim that the two stories are the same and absolutely, historically true also claim to believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful God -- I was demonstrating that these two views cannot really coexist. Personally, I believe in the latter but not in the historical truth of Genesis. *shrug*

So, I keep seeing people try to claim that there is only one creation story in the Bible although there are clearly two, both pretty allegorical - written by two different authors in two different styles in which things happen in very different orders. But I am going to attempt to combine the two stories. You include different chapters of Genesis, generally accepted to have been written by Moses. What's this about two different authors?


Up until here God is very majestic and powerful. In fact, one could say that God is all-powerful (perhaps because that is the point the author was trying to get across). Interestingly enough, humankind is the epoch of creation - the finishing touch, if you will. Nothing has gone wrong at all... yet.


Gen 2:5-2:6 All of a sudden there are no plants and no rain and no people to tend the plants. (One has to wonder where they all went, but I'm sure God just lost them.)

You've misread this. Chapter 1 was terse and direct to highlight God's creative power. Making it short shows how even the creation of the world is "no big deal" to an all-powerful God.

Chapter 2 goes more in-depth to show the Fall.

You say, "All of a sudden", as if this was meant to be taken chronologically. Why didn't you look at the break at verse 4?

"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub of field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground"

Notice the break there from what came before?


In this part, God seems a little bumbling. And one really must wonder what happened to all the plants and animals and people that were made in the first chapter. Of course, it would seem that the author of this part of the story was trying to say that all of creation was made for the usage of man (even woman). You can also see that the point was not that God was all-powerful, but - as demonstrated later - that man was given paradise and then fell from the grace of God. Very different stories and they still don't mesh well together, even in Cliff's Note version. Hmmmmm
As I said, chapter one emphasizes the power of God, chapter two is the setup for the Fall. Where's your contradiction? I think that they mesh together really well.

You include different chapters of Genesis, generally accepted to have been written by Moses. What's this about two different authors?

This is generally accepted by laypeople and many preachers - scholars believe them to have been written by two different authors. In fact, the whole Torah is believed to have actually been written down by a "priestly" author and another author. Both had different viewpoints, just as the different Gospels have different viewpoints.

You've misread this. Chapter 1 was terse and direct to highlight God's creative power. Making it short shows how even the creation of the world is "no big deal" to an all-powerful God.

Chapter 2 goes more in-depth to show the Fall.

Except that *you* are misreading it. How can it just be an in-depth description when the events happen in completely different orders? In chapter 1, the plants are made at the exact same time as the land. Then *all* of the animals are made. Finally, at the epoch of creation, humankind (both male and female) are made.

In Chapter 2, God makes the land, waits a little while, then makes plants. Then God makes a single man. Then God makes the animals (which came before human beings in the first chapter) as "helpers" for Adam. God decides the helpers aren't good enough and thus makes woman at the epoch of creation.

The *only* way these two can possibly be combined into one story is if there were two separate creations.

You say, "All of a sudden", as if this was meant to be taken chronologically. Why didn't you look at the break at verse 4?

Chronologically or not, they are obviously two different stories. I was simply trying to combine them into one, which really can't logically be done. Also, I had someone on this forum recently tell me that they were chronological.

"This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub of field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground"

Notice the break there from what came before?

I understand that people read it to be a break in the first chapter - I was replying to those who tried to tell me it was chronological.

But either way, the orders described in the second chapter are very different from those in the first.

As I said, chapter one emphasizes the power of God, chapter two is the setup for the Fall. Where's your contradiction? I think that they mesh together really well.

See above. If you really think they "mesh together really well," you aren't actually reading. Chapter 1 states that all the animals were made before humankind, which was made both male and female right off the bat and that humankind was immediately told to be fruitful and multiply. Chapter 2 states that all the animals were made *in between* man and woman, and no one was told to be fruitful and multiply until after fall (which wouldn't be so "good" would it - and would also suggest that God's day of rest didn't happen until after the fall).

There is no mention of Lilith in Torah ... at all.

She is mentioned only briefly in the Hebrew Bible in Isaiah 34:14. In Jewish traditions, God gave Lilith to Adam as his first wife to banish his loneliness. Like him, she had been created from the dust of the earth. She insisted upon enjoying full equality with her husband, deriving her right from their identical origin. Rather than acknowledging Adam as her superior and becoming his servant, she left him and was turned out of paradise. Ever since, Lilith has been roaming the world, making the air and all desolate places her home, howling her hatred of mankind through the night, vowing vengeance for the unjust treatment she received. She is called the 'howling one' and her name means 'screech owl.' It is mistakenly thought that Lilith's name was derived from the Hebrew word lailah, which means 'night.' This was probably derived from the similarity of the two words, and the idea that Lilith was mostly active at night. Before creating Eve, God dispatched three angels to induce Lilith to return to Adam. When she refused, God put a curse on her that made one hundred of her offspring die every day. Lilith became the mistress of Sammael, the archdemon or the serpent who tempted Eve, and thus a queen of demons. But after the expulsion, she slept one more time with Adam, and from that union were born the Shedim, Linin, and Ruchin. Lilith is usually portrayed with long flowing hair, and she also possesses wings. She is the queen of the class of demons known as Lilin or Lilim, who were monsters with human bodies, the hindquarters of an ass, and wings. In the Zohar, the first important book of Jewish Kabbalah, is found the following description of how Lilith takes vengeance: 'She adorns herself with many ornaments like a despicable harlot, and takes up her position at the crossroads to seduce the sons of man. When a fool approaches her, she grabs him, kisses him, and pours him win of dregs of vipers' gall. When she sees that he is gone astray after her from the path of truth, she divests herself of all ornaments which she put on for that fool. Her ornaments are: her hair is long and red like a rose, her cheeks are white and red, from her ears hang six ornaments, Egyptian cords and all the ornaments from the land of the East hang from her nape. Her mouth is set like a narrow door comely in its decor, her tongue is sharp like a sword, her words are smooth like oil, her lips are red like a rose and sweetened by all the sweetness of the world. She is dressed in scarlet and adorned with forty ornaments less one. Yon fool drinks from the cup and commits with her fornications. She leaves him asleep on the couch, flies up to heaven, denounces him, and descends. That fool awakes and deems he can make sport with her as before, but she removes her ornaments and stands before him in garments of flaming fire, inspiring terror and making body and soul tremble, full of frightening eyes, in her hand a drawn sword dripping bitter drops. And she kills that fool and casts him into Gehenna.' No wonder that the Zohar calls Lilith 'Serpent, Woman of Harlotry, End of All Flesh, End of Days.' Eternally furious at the cruel punishment inflicted upon her, Lilith stalked through the night, stealing children from their cribs, unless prevented by specific charms. Infants, especially girls, were most susceptible during the first two to three weeks of their lives. The charms that warded off her evil influence were amulets inscribed with the name of the angels sent to bring her back to Adam - Samvi, Sansavi, Semangelaf. Or else they invoke the names of Adam and Eve, and the phrase 'Lilith be gone.' These charms had to be distributed around the room according to special magical patterns. Even today, among the Jews of Palestine, Lilith - succubus, childstealer and evil eye - is averted from the bed by hanging over it a charm in Hebrew. It is made of special Kabbalistic paper and tied together with a piece of rue, garlic, and a fragment of a mirror. On the first possible sabbath all the relations assemble in the room and make a hideous noise to drive away the evil spirit. Although unproved, there is a strong possibility that the English word 'lullaby' is nothing more than a corruption of 'Lilla-bi' - Lilith be gone! Furthermore, in medieval times, Lilith was considered the cause of nocturnal emissions and was believed to be a dangerous presence in the marital chamber. On this, another Kabbalistic text comments as follows: 'And behold, that hard shell (embodiment of evil), Lilith is always present in the bed linen of man and wife when they copulate, in order to take hold of the drops of semen which are lost - because it is impossible to perform the marital act without such a loss of sparks - and she created out of them demons, spirits and Lilin...But there is an incantation for this, to chase Lilith away from the bed and to bring forth pure souls...in that moment, when a man copulates with his wife, let him direct his heart to the holiness of his Master, and say:

In the name of God
O you are wrapped in velvet
You have appeared!
Release, release!
Neither come nor go!
The seed is not yours,
Nor is your inheritance.
Go back, go back!
The sea rages,
Its waves call you.
I hold on to the Holy One,
Wrap myself into the King's holiness!'


There is no mention of Lucifer in Torah ... at all.

"How art thou fallen from heaven
O day-star, son of the morning! (Helel ben Shahar)
How art thou cast down to the ground,
That didst cast lots over the nations!
And thou saidst in thy heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
Above the stars of God (El)
Will I exalt my throne;
And I will sit upon the mount of meeting,
In the uttermost parts of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the Most High (Elyon).'
Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world,
To the uttermost parts of the pit."
- Isaiah 14:12-15

In Christian tradition, this passage is proof for the fall of Lucifer. Many Apocalyptic writers interpreted this passage as referring to Lucifer, and wrote about the fall of the angels. 1 Enoch refers to the falling angels as stars (see the watchers) and may be the beginning of the overlap between the story of the watchers and Isaiah. The name 'Lucifer' means light-bearer, and is not used in the New Testament, where the "bearer of light" is Christ. He was once one of the Seraphim (sometimes called the fiery, flying serpents). Later authors, such as St. Jerome, associate Ezekial 28:13-15 with Lucifer, the greatest of the fallen angels. It has been argued that this passage was actually addressed to Nebuchadnezzar.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your adornment:
Carnelian, chrysolite, and amethyst;
Beryl, lapis lazuli, and jasper;
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;
And gold beautifully wrought for you,
Mined for you, prepared the day you were created.
I created you as a cherub
With outstretched shielding wings;
And you resided on God's holy mountain;
You walked among stones of fire.
You were blameless in your ways,
From the day you were created
Until wrongdoing was found in you
By your far-flung commerce
You were filled with lawlessness
And you sinned.
So I have struck you down
From the mountain of God,
And I have destroyed you, O shielding cherub,
From among the stones of fire."

Later interpretations of the fall tell that Lucifer was upset because God the Father made Lucifer's brother, Jesual, the Son. From his head, he gave birth to Sin, and by copulating with her, fathered Death. He was then cast out of heaven. According to the hierarchies he was the Emperor of the Infernal legions.

Since there is no Lilith in creation, everything in history has happened prior to the creation of Lilith.

For the Jews, Sammael is the prince of demons. In Rabbinical legend he is a storm demon, and his name is linked with Samiel or Simoon, which is the name of a desert wind. According to tradition, Sammael was said to have been the highest throne-angel. He was said to have twelve wings, which was twice the number of wings of the Seraphim and other living creatures. According to the Debarim Rabbi (xi), Sammael is the wicked angel who is the chief of all the Satans. It was Sammael (also associated with Satan) who, under the guise of the serpent, tempted Eve in paradise. According to chapters 13 and 14 of the Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer, Satan’s fall was mainly out of jealousy and envy on the part of the angels. The angels were in opposition to the creation of man, and were jealous that man was allowed to give names to all creatures. They saw this act as proving that man was superior to themselves. Sammael, who was the first of all the angel princes, led a group of angels to earth in an attempt to conspire against Adam, so that by his fall, they might again gain supremacy over man. In the Bereshith Rabba (xix), the serpent was described as possessing hands and feet and it resembled a camel. It also could speak. Sammael took possession of the serpent and thus deceived Eve. Because of this act, the angels were cast out of heaven and the feet of the serpent were cut off. 3 Baruch makes reference to this event. The Greek version uses the name 'Samael' while the Slavic text replaces the name with 'Satanael.' "And I said, 'I pray you, show me which is the tree which caused Adam to stray.' And the angel said, 'It is the vine which the angel Samael planted by which the Lord God became angered, and he cursed him and his planting. For this reason he did not permit Adam to touch it. And because of this the devil became envious, and tricked him by means of his vine.'" - 3 Baruch 4:8 (Greek) "And during the transgression of the first Adam, she gave light to Samael when he took the serpent as a garment, and did not hide, but on the contrary, waxed." - 3 Baruch 9:7 (Greek) Sammael plays the role of the accuser, seducer, and destroyer (and is identified with Satan in some traditions). Another example of the deeds of Sammael is his role in the trial of Abraham. Sammael stood before God to accuse Abraham of selfish piety. God decided to test Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Sammael then tried to persuade Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac, and also to persuade Isaac to rebel against this trial. When he saw that Abraham would not disobey God, he revenged himself by telling Sarah that Isaac had been slain. She then died of her grief and terror. Sammael is also a symbol of the 'venom of God.' This title refers to his role as executioner of the death sentences ordered by God, and links him to the Angel of Death. In T.B. Abuda Zarah, Sammael is represented as standing by a dying man with a drawn sword in his hand. The point of the sword has a drop of gall on it. When the dying man sees him, he is startled and opens his mouth. The drop of gall then falls into his mouth and the man dies. In this personification, Sammael is said to have brought about Moses' death. According to the T.B. Baba Metzia (86a), the Angel of Death did not fall but remains one of God's angels. Sammael also, as an uncircumcised mate of Lilith, fathered a huge family of demons. According to a fifteenth century story, a Spanish Kabbalist of that era tried to gain power over Sammael by summoning him in the name of God. When Sammael appeared in the form of a serpent, the conjurer bound the demon by placing on his head a crown inscribed with magic letters which spelled out: 'Thy Master's Name is upon Thee.' But Sammael was not to be duped that easily. He cunningly convinced the magician to burn incense to seal his victory. When the conjurer obeyed, the demon was instantly freed from the spell, as the burning of incense was an act of idolatry. In the Kabbalistic tradition, Sammael is the chief of the ten evil Sephiroth. He is said to fly through the air like a bird. The dark blemishes on the moon's surface are supposed to be this archdemon's excrement.


If you disagree with any of the above, great! However, I will need you to provide chapter and verse of where Lilith, Lucifer, and Samael appear with concern to creation.

The Torah isn't the only Jewish book in the Old Testament. They have a *bunch* more that Neo-Christianity censored in the Council of Necine.

This is generally accepted by laypeople and many preachers - scholars believe them to have been written by two different authors. In fact, the whole Torah is believed to have actually been written down by a "priestly" author and another author. Both had different viewpoints, just as the different Gospels have different viewpoints.

Genesis 2 and 3 belong to the Yahwist, the body of mythology of Judah. Here God is referred to as 'the Lord' (Yahweh) and his sacred mountain is Sinai. Genesis 1 belongs to the body of writing known as Elohim of the people of Israel, and God here is also referred to as Elohim. Their sacred mountain is Horeb.

Genesis 2 and 3 belong to the Yahwist, the body of mythology of Judah. Here God is referred to as 'the Lord' (Yahweh) and his sacred mountain is Sinai. Genesis 1 belongs to the body of writing known as Elohim of the people of Israel, and God here is also referred to as Elohim. Their sacred mountain is Horeb.

Yet, Elohim, to Theosophists, the name for the Order of Angelic Princes. Two being named are Metatron and Sandalaphon (Angelic Princes' names don't end in -el, unlike every other Angelic Name), whom were the Mighty Prophets Enoch and Elijah in human life (such a transubstatiation is unheard of in other prophets). It is the Elohim which take seat, politically, besides the Divine Throne to watch over the Angelic Realms.

Also, a minor note of Mount Horeb! Mount Horeb is the Divine Realm of the Angel Raziel, whom visits it daily to proclaim the secrets of mankind. For those whom aren't big into Theosophy, the Angel Raziel is the Angel of Mystery, Divine Guardian over the Realm of Mystery, and the most Intelligent being ever created (even moreso than God?). He is also a very compassionate being towards humanity, and is the longest running angelic guardian of mankind, first visiting Adam as soon as Jophiel expelled them from Eden to teach them how to survive with the extremely powerful Book of Raziel (the book latered taught Noah how to build the Arc, and Solomon how to control demons {which eventually tricked and killed him [don't mess with Astaroth]}).

She is mentioned only briefly in the Hebrew Bible in Isaiah 34:14. In Jewish traditions, God gave Lilith to Adam as his first wife to banish his loneliness. Like him, she had been created from the dust of the earth. She insisted upon enjoying full equality with her husband, deriving her right from their identical origin. Rather than acknowledging Adam as her superior and becoming his servant, she left him and was turned out of paradise.
Which source do you use? In the version I heard, it wasn't Adam's superiority she objected to but his taking a 'superior' position in intercourse: "Why should I lie beneath you when I am your equal since both of us were created from dust?" (The Hebrew Goddess, Raphael Patai)

Ever since, Lilith has been roaming the world, making the air and all desolate places her home, howling her hatred of mankind through the night, vowing vengeance for the unjust treatment she received. She is called the 'howling one' and her name means 'screech owl.' It is mistakenly thought that Lilith's name was derived from the Hebrew word lailah, which means 'night.' This was probably derived from the similarity of the two words, and the idea that Lilith was mostly active at night.
The name also appears in Summerian, Lil, which means 'air' or 'storm', associated with the dark aspect of Innana. She and Inanna were both referred to as 'Divine Lady Owl'. And in Sumero-Akkadian the word Lil means 'dust-storm' or 'dust-cloud', a term applied to ghosts. In Semitic she is Lilatu, 'handmaid of the ghost', which was morphed with layil, meaning 'night', and became a word of terror, summoning night-demons --in Masoretic texts, literally 'night monster'.

Before creating Eve, God dispatched three angels to induce Lilith to return to Adam. When she refused, God put a curse on her that made one hundred of her offspring die every day. Lilith became the mistress of Sammael, the archdemon or the serpent who tempted Eve, and thus a queen of demons. But after the expulsion, she slept one more time with Adam, and from that union were born the Shedim, Linin, and Ruchin. Lilith is usually portrayed with long flowing hair, and she also possesses wings...

Which source do you use? In the version I heard, it wasn't Adam's superiority she objected to but his taking a 'superior' position in intercourse: "Why should I lie beneath you when I am your equal since both of us were created from dust?" (The Hebrew Goddess, Raphael Patai)

I didn't feel like pasting all that when I had this same conversation 7 months ago on this very forum.

That was only about 40% of all I have on her...

I've posted beyond the post limits before. I thought mine was long enough to get the point through that just because a Christianity-censored Torah doesn't say something, doesn't mean it didn't happen religiously.

If Judiasism believes in it, Christianity has to. So I find it almost amusing defiling a lot of modern Christians' beliefs with hardcore knowledge on Jewish Texts.

So many things are taken for granted. I don't see why anyone would try to debate becoming further enlightened on their own faith.

I'm agnostic, by the way. I research religion as a favored hobby of mine. I'm not here to change anyone's ideas or make them think their life is wrong. I'm just trying to teach them how to look a bit deeper.

Isn't Isaiah 14:12-15 about the king of Babylon?

If Judiasism believes in it, Christianity has to. So I find it almost amusing defiling a lot of modern Christians' beliefs with hardcore knowledge on Jewish Texts.

So many things are taken for granted. I don't see why anyone would try to debate becoming further enlightened on their own faith.

I'm agnostic, by the way. I research religion as a favored hobby of mine. I'm not here to change anyone's ideas or make them think their life is wrong. I'm just trying to teach them how to look a bit deeper.

Do you have any good references or web cites on this stuff? I would be looking for English pages giving an overview of the process rather than chapter and verse studies. I am particularly interested in the angelic heirachy and the various named individuals.

Regards,

Isn't Isaiah 14:12-15 about the king of Babylon?
It's a relating of a taunt that, it says, can be tossed at the King of Babylon. The taunt itself is not specifically about him.

Isn't Isaiah 14:12-15 about the king of Babylon?

....read the single paragraph between the two quotations....
...jeeezus

Interesting stuff.

Do you have any good references or web cites on this stuff? I would be looking for English pages giving an overview of the process rather than chapter and verse studies. I am particularly interested in the angelic heirachy and the various named individuals.

Regards,

You may or may not be surprised, but the Homepage of the Catholic Church (not the Holy See though) actually has a bit on the Angelic Hierarchy.

The former server known as SpiritWeb had a HUGE thing about Theosophy. I was thankful to have copied the HTML code to notepad before the site went into a failed reconstruction, ending in the finality of the website.

I did a page about it 3 years ago as some project for web design. Let me Pull it up here. . .


http://www.catholic.org/saints/anglchoi.php <-- That's always good for a basic understanding. Plus it's rather...credible... (with minor inaccuracies, such as confusing Samael and Camael (the former being the Angelic name for Satan, the Latter the Angelic Guardian of Peace)). Yes, I know it could be interpreted as wrong to argue against the Catholic Church about Angels...

But I do it because I'm right!

You'll find it incredibly difficult to find names of Angels, since less than a dozen are actually cited in the Christian Testaments. You'll have to go into deep Jewish Kabbalah and Apocrypha, where hundreds of Angels are cited (Especially in the books of Yesod, Zohar, and the Chronicles of Enoch).

However...I'll give you a nice little site.

http://heavensangel.net/atoz.htm

Y'know..the more I read Paradise Lost, the more I like it.

Anyway...

http://paracleteforum.org/archive/email/history/lilith/dialogue.html <--Yay for Lillith!

Do you have any good references or web cites on this stuff? I would be looking for English pages giving an overview of the process rather than chapter and verse studies. I am particularly interested in the angelic heirachy and the various named individuals.

Regards,
A thorough reference on the "history" of angels is the Urantia Book (http://www.truthbook.com/1414.cfm). (Kind of scary reading for atheists, though --at least, I thought so.)

Books about the Book of Enoch (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/701-0663323-6982767) are available on Amazon.

The Torah isn't the only Jewish book in the Old Testament. They have a *bunch* more that Neo-Christianity censored in the Council of Necine.

First, I must point out that I am Jewish. Beyond that, I attended Hebrew school and rabbinical studies at Hebrew University. I was granted semikhah - which means I am a Rabbi. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about.

Anyway ...

Torah is what is the authority when dealing with Creation. Isaiah is not in Torah, hence, quotes from Isaiah cannot be cited as a source for Torah.

Torah is five books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. That's it. There is no more to Torah. Included in the "Old Testament" are Nevi'im and Kethuvim. Combined, they make up Tanakh.

None of the Jewish texts (Nevi'im, Kethuvim, Talmud, Tanya, etc) matter in the face of Torah. In Judaism, Torah is the supreme authority. Again, I say, Lilith is not mentioned in Torah.

Dante wrote a book called The Divine Comedy. Part of that text includes a very detailed description of the nine levels of Hell. It is just a book and has absolutely zero basis in scripture. The "Fall of Lucifer" is mostly noted in Milton's "Paradise Lost", another novel which has zero basis in scripture.

As for Lilith ....

Lilith is what the Hebrews called the Assyrian storm goddes Lilitu and Lilith has no basis in Torah or the Judaica.

According to Torah, man was originally created as hermaphroditic, dual gendered (Gen 1:27), but was subsequently separated. This separation was not due to gender issues or anything of the sort, but due to God's own realization in Gen 2:18 that "It is not good for man to be alone" (The first mitzvot/commandment). Hence, Adam was split into Adam and Ishshah. (Not Lilith)

I suppose if you want to get technical about it, Adam's first "wife" was himself!

Lilith didn't first appear in Jewish writing until the Talmud (Erub. 100b; Nid. 24b) and only as passing commentary on her description.

The current view of Lilith as a role model for women who do not accept male domination came from a book called the Alphabet of Ben Sira - a midieval text. It is here that Ben Sira claimed Lilith to be Adam's first wife. You can read the story here: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/alphabet.html

It is not entirely certain what Ben Sira is, but it appears to be a satire or parody, possibly even an antisemitic one. It tells many stories about biblical characters envisioned in non-traditional, often unflattering ways, often with slapstick humor at the expense of traditional heroes.

Sorry, but Lilith has absolutely no basis in Judaism - where women are 100% equal to men - nor any basis in Kabbalah. Lilith's only basis is in fiction writers such as Ben Sira, Goethe (Faust), and Bernard Shaw (Back to Methuselah).

A thorough reference on the "history" of angels is the Urantia Book (http://www.truthbook.com/1414.cfm). (Kind of scary reading for atheists, though --at least, I thought so.)

Books about the Book of Enoch (http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/701-0663323-6982767) are available on Amazon.

Screw that amazon Link!

Print it out (all 106 chapters; longest religious book EVAR!!!) Right here!

(Special thanks for Stella Tenebrarum, the Star of Darkness, a Croatian Society of Satanists for their help!)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/2026/enoch.html

Note: I have cross-referenced this book with others I have to make sure it's as genuine as can get and not biased towards the society. I should say that before I get the, "OMG WTF SATANIST!" remarks...

Genesis 2 and 3 belong to the Yahwist, the body of mythology of Judah. Here God is referred to as 'the Lord' (Yahweh) and his sacred mountain is Sinai. Genesis 1 belongs to the body of writing known as Elohim of the people of Israel, and God here is also referred to as Elohim. Their sacred mountain is Horeb.

Ah thank you, it was the word "Yahwist" that I could never remember. Although, in my theology classes, we referred to the two authors as "priestly" (which I believe refers to the Elohim writings) and "Yahwist." They both had very different viewpoints on God and what was most important to convey.

There is no mention of Lilith in Torah ... at all.

The name "Lilith" is never mentioned in the Torah, but her alleged "creation story" does exist in Genesis, it just doesn't explicitly say "Lilith". It's all dependent on whether or not you agree that the passage (Gen 1:27) is talking about HER.

According to Torah, man was originally created as hermaphroditic, dual gendered (Gen 1:27), but was subsequently separated. This separation was not due to gender issues or anything of the sort, but due to God's own realization in Gen 2:18 that "It is not good for man to be alone" (The first mitzvot/commandment). Hence, Adam was split into Adam and Ishshah. (Not Lilith)

But other authoritative Jewish sources, such as the Talmud, make claims linking Lilith back into the Genesis story. Which would seem to make this more problematic.

Sorry, but Lilith has absolutely no basis in Judaism - where women are 100% equal to men - nor any basis in Kabbalah.

Well I can personally assert that that's not true, since I've read parts of the Zohar (the new Matt translation is quite good) and Lilith is mentioned repeatedly, and often incorporated with Biblical glosses and commentaries. Simply because a concept is not part of Torah does not make it not part of Judaism. If that was the case then all the other books would be irrelevant.

There are other Jewish texts that might not have the same authority as the Torah, but have some degree of authority in their own rights, and so the concepts they raise have to at least be evaluated.

Lilith is one such example. No direct mention in the Torah, but mentions in the Talmud, as well as featured prominently in the Zohar. It is thus incorrect to assert that she has no "basis" in Judaism (actually, if you could clarify what you mean by "basis", that would be quite helpful).

She is mentioned only briefly in the Hebrew Bible in Isaiah 34:14. In Jewish traditions, God gave Lilith to Adam as his first wife to banish his loneliness. Like him, she had been created from the dust of the earth. She insisted upon enjoying full equality with her husband, deriving her right from their identical origin. Rather than acknowledging Adam as her superior and becoming his servant, she left him and was turned out of paradise. Ever since, Lilith has been roaming the world, making the air and all desolate places her home, howling her hatred of mankind through the night, vowing vengeance for the unjust treatment she received. She is called the 'howling one' and her name means 'screech owl.' It is mistakenly thought that Lilith's name was derived from the Hebrew word lailah, which means 'night.' This was probably derived from the similarity of the two words, and the idea that Lilith was mostly active at night. Before creating Eve, God dispatched three angels to induce Lilith to return to Adam. When she refused, God put a curse on her that made one hundred of her offspring die every day. Lilith became the mistress of Sammael, the archdemon or the serpent who tempted Eve, and thus a queen of demons. But after the expulsion, she slept one more time with Adam, and from that union were born the Shedim, Linin, and Ruchin. Lilith is usually portrayed with long flowing hair, and she also possesses wings. She is the queen of the class of demons known as Lilin or Lilim, who were monsters with human bodies, the hindquarters of an ass, and wings. In the Zohar, the first important book of Jewish Kabbalah, is found the following description of how Lilith takes vengeance: 'She adorns herself with many ornaments like a despicable harlot, and takes up her position at the crossroads to seduce the sons of man. When a fool approaches her, she grabs him, kisses him, and pours him win of dregs of vipers' gall. When she sees that he is gone astray after her from the path of truth, she divests herself of all ornaments which she put on for that fool. Her ornaments are: her hair is long and red like a rose, her cheeks are white and red, from her ears hang six ornaments, Egyptian cords and all the ornaments from the land of the East hang from her nape. Her mouth is set like a narrow door comely in its decor, her tongue is sharp like a sword, her words are smooth like oil, her lips are red like a rose and sweetened by all the sweetness of the world. She is dressed in scarlet and adorned with forty ornaments less one. Yon fool drinks from the cup and commits with her fornications. She leaves him asleep on the couch, flies up to heaven, denounces him, and descends. That fool awakes and deems he can make sport with her as before, but she removes her ornaments and stands before him in garments of flaming fire, inspiring terror and making body and soul tremble, full of frightening eyes, in her hand a drawn sword dripping bitter drops. And she kills that fool and casts him into Gehenna.' No wonder that the Zohar calls Lilith 'Serpent, Woman of Harlotry, End of All Flesh, End of Days.' Eternally furious at the cruel punishment inflicted upon her, Lilith stalked through the night, stealing children from their cribs, unless prevented by specific charms. Infants, especially girls, were most susceptible during the first two to three weeks of their lives. The charms that warded off her evil influence were amulets inscribed with the name of the angels sent to bring her back to Adam - Samvi, Sansavi, Semangelaf. Or else they invoke the names of Adam and Eve, and the phrase 'Lilith be gone.' These charms had to be distributed around the room according to special magical patterns. Even today, among the Jews of Palestine, Lilith - succubus, childstealer and evil eye - is averted from the bed by hanging over it a charm in Hebrew. It is made of special Kabbalistic paper and tied together with a piece of rue, garlic, and a fragment of a mirror. On the first possible sabbath all the relations assemble in the room and make a hideous noise to drive away the evil spirit. Although unproved, there is a strong possibility that the English word 'lullaby' is nothing more than a corruption of 'Lilla-bi' - Lilith be gone! Furthermore, in medieval times, Lilith was considered the cause of nocturnal emissions and was believed to be a dangerous presence in the marital chamber. On this, another Kabbalistic text comments as follows: 'And behold, that hard shell (embodiment of evil), Lilith is always present in the bed linen of man and wife when they copulate, in order to take hold of the drops of semen which are lost - because it is impossible to perform the marital act without such a loss of sparks - and she created out of them demons, spirits and Lilin...But there is an incantation for this, to chase Lilith away from the bed and to bring forth pure souls...in that moment, when a man copulates with his wife, let him direct his heart to the holiness of his Master, and say:

In the name of God
O you are wrapped in velvet
You have appeared!
Release, release!
Neither come nor go!
The seed is not yours,
Nor is your inheritance.
Go back, go back!
The sea rages,
Its waves call you.
I hold on to the Holy One,
Wrap myself into the King's holiness!'




"How art thou fallen from heaven
O day-star, son of the morning! (Helel ben Shahar)
How art thou cast down to the ground,
That didst cast lots over the nations!
And thou saidst in thy heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
Above the stars of God (El)
Will I exalt my throne;
And I will sit upon the mount of meeting,
In the uttermost parts of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the Most High (Elyon).'
Yet thou shalt be brought down to the nether-world,
To the uttermost parts of the pit."
- Isaiah 14:12-15

In Christian tradition, this passage is proof for the fall of Lucifer. Many Apocalyptic writers interpreted this passage as referring to Lucifer, and wrote about the fall of the angels. 1 Enoch refers to the falling angels as stars (see the watchers) and may be the beginning of the overlap between the story of the watchers and Isaiah. The name 'Lucifer' means light-bearer, and is not used in the New Testament, where the "bearer of light" is Christ. He was once one of the Seraphim (sometimes called the fiery, flying serpents). Later authors, such as St. Jerome, associate Ezekial 28:13-15 with Lucifer, the greatest of the fallen angels. It has been argued that this passage was actually addressed to Nebuchadnezzar.

"You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your adornment:
Carnelian, chrysolite, and amethyst;
Beryl, lapis lazuli, and jasper;
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald;
And gold beautifully wrought for you,
Mined for you, prepared the day you were created.
I created you as a cherub
With outstretched shielding wings;
And you resided on God's holy mountain;
You walked among stones of fire.
You were blameless in your ways,
From the day you were created
Until wrongdoing was found in you
By your far-flung commerce
You were filled with lawlessness
And you sinned.
So I have struck you down
From the mountain of God,
And I have destroyed you, O shielding cherub,
From among the stones of fire."

Later interpretations of the fall tell that Lucifer was upset because God the Father made Lucifer's brother, Jesual, the Son. From his head, he gave birth to Sin, and by copulating with her, fathered Death. He was then cast out of heaven. According to the hierarchies he was the Emperor of the Infernal legions.



For the Jews, Sammael is the prince of demons. In Rabbinical legend he is a storm demon, and his name is linked with Samiel or Simoon, which is the name of a desert wind. According to tradition, Sammael was said to have been the highest throne-angel. He was said to have twelve wings, which was twice the number of wings of the Seraphim and other living creatures. According to the Debarim Rabbi (xi), Sammael is the wicked angel who is the chief of all the Satans. It was Sammael (also associated with Satan) who, under the guise of the serpent, tempted Eve in paradise. According to chapters 13 and 14 of the Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer, Satan’s fall was mainly out of jealousy and envy on the part of the angels. The angels were in opposition to the creation of man, and were jealous that man was allowed to give names to all creatures. They saw this act as proving that man was superior to themselves. Sammael, who was the first of all the angel princes, led a group of angels to earth in an attempt to conspire against Adam, so that by his fall, they might again gain supremacy over man. In the Bereshith Rabba (xix), the serpent was described as possessing hands and feet and it resembled a camel. It also could speak. Sammael took possession of the serpent and thus deceived Eve. Because of this act, the angels were cast out of heaven and the feet of the serpent were cut off. 3 Baruch makes reference to this event. The Greek version uses the name 'Samael' while the Slavic text replaces the name with 'Satanael.' "And I said, 'I pray you, show me which is the tree which caused Adam to stray.' And the angel said, 'It is the vine which the angel Samael planted by which the Lord God became angered, and he cursed him and his planting. For this reason he did not permit Adam to touch it. And because of this the devil became envious, and tricked him by means of his vine.'" - 3 Baruch 4:8 (Greek) "And during the transgression of the first Adam, she gave light to Samael when he took the serpent as a garment, and did not hide, but on the contrary, waxed." - 3 Baruch 9:7 (Greek) Sammael plays the role of the accuser, seducer, and destroyer (and is identified with Satan in some traditions). Another example of the deeds of Sammael is his role in the trial of Abraham. Sammael stood before God to accuse Abraham of selfish piety. God decided to test Abraham by asking him to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Sammael then tried to persuade Abraham not to sacrifice Isaac, and also to persuade Isaac to rebel against this trial. When he saw that Abraham would not disobey God, he revenged himself by telling Sarah that Isaac had been slain. She then died of her grief and terror. Sammael is also a symbol of the 'venom of God.' This title refers to his role as executioner of the death sentences ordered by God, and links him to the Angel of Death. In T.B. Abuda Zarah, Sammael is represented as standing by a dying man with a drawn sword in his hand. The point of the sword has a drop of gall on it. When the dying man sees him, he is startled and opens his mouth. The drop of gall then falls into his mouth and the man dies. In this personification, Sammael is said to have brought about Moses' death. According to the T.B. Baba Metzia (86a), the Angel of Death did not fall but remains one of God's angels. Sammael also, as an uncircumcised mate of Lilith, fathered a huge family of demons. According to a fifteenth century story, a Spanish Kabbalist of that era tried to gain power over Sammael by summoning him in the name of God. When Sammael appeared in the form of a serpent, the conjurer bound the demon by placing on his head a crown inscribed with magic letters which spelled out: 'Thy Master's Name is upon Thee.' But Sammael was not to be duped that easily. He cunningly convinced the magician to burn incense to seal his victory. When the conjurer obeyed, the demon was instantly freed from the spell, as the burning of incense was an act of idolatry. In the Kabbalistic tradition, Sammael is the chief of the ten evil Sephiroth. He is said to fly through the air like a bird. The dark blemishes on the moon's surface are supposed to be this archdemon's excrement.

Generally, it's considered impolite to quote without citing a source, or letting people know you're quoting. It's also called plagarism.

Your sources, I believe: http://www.heart7.net/spirit/l.html
http://www.heart7.net/spirit/s.html

The name "Lilith" is never mentioned in the Torah, but her alleged "creation story" does exist in Genesis, it just doesn't explicitly say "Lilith". It's all dependent on whether or not you agree that the passage (Gen 1:27) is talking about HER.

You could just as easily say Cthulu was Adam's first wife ... after all, it doesn't explicitly *say* it's Cthulu ...


But other authoritative Jewish sources, such as the Talmud, make claims linking Lilith back into the Genesis story. Which would seem to make this more problematic.

The Talmud only describes her appearance and says nothing else about her.

Erub. 100b; Nid. 24b <--- look for yourself.

Well I can assert that that's not true, since Lilith is mentioned repeatedly in the Zohar, and often incorporated with Biblical glosses and commentaries. She does have SOME basis in Judaism (and Kabbalah, which is a component thereof) - just not necessarily explicitly in Torah.

No ... Lilith is not mentioned in Zohar at all. The modern Kabbalist movement has little relevance to true Kabbalah. The "lilitu" discussed in Zohar is referring to the Assyrian storm goddess.

You could just as easily say Cthulu was Adam's first wife ... after all, it doesn't explicitly *say* it's Cthulu ...

I wasn't saying that it says it, I was merely stating that the passage Lilith proponents claim to be ABOUT her exists.

The Talmud only describes her appearance and says nothing else about her.

Erub. 100b; Nid. 24b <--- look for yourself.

I'll take a look in the next few days when I have a chance to go to the library.

Incidentally, what about these alleged mentionings?

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/ (scroll down to appearances in the Talmud)

I haven't checked them out, can you give any insight on them one way or the other?

Also, doesn't the fact that the Talmud mentions her appearance already seem to indicate that she existed within legitimate Jewish thought? (I.e., had some roots in Judaism.) If the rabbis were describing what she looked like, clearly they thought the idea of Lilith had to have some sort of authoritative Jewish substance to it, right? They wouldn't have just said, "Oh, and here's a description of a night demon that has no Jewish susbtance or context. Enjoy."

No ... Lilith is not mentioned in Zohar at all.

I'm pretty sure Lilith is mentioned at least several times in the new Matt translation.

The modern Kabbalist movement has little relevance to true Kabbalah.

Which "modern Kabbalist movement" are you talking about? Pop-Kabbalah, like the Kabbalah centre, or the modern scholarly movement devoted to STUDYING and understanding Jewish mysticism, such as done by Daniel Matt, Joseph Dan, Gershom Scholem, Moshe Idel, Elliot Wolfson, Lawrence Fine, etc.?

And exactly what do you define as "true Kabbalah"?

The "lilitu" discussed in Zohar is referring to the Assyrian storm goddess.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to my copy of the Matt Zohar right now, so I can't check that. I'll look it up when I can, though.

I will point out, however, that there was a school of thought within "true Kabbalah", however you'd like to define it, which believed Lilith to be an "authentic" part of the Kabbalistic conception of the universe. Rabbi Isaac Ha-Kohen's "Treatise on the Emanations of the Left" goes into some detail regarding Lilith's place in the "grand scheme" of things. Joseph Dan has written about this document, both in his article "Samael, Lilith, and the Concept of Evil in Early Kabbalah"- printed in the anthology "Essential Papers on Kabbalah", and in his own "The Early Kabbalah".

Ah, how convenient. A link to an excerpt of Dan's discussion of the "Left Emanation" (or rather, to Dan's quoting the Left Emanation- obviously, in translation).

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/jacob_ha_kohen.html

19 In answer to your question concerning Lilith, I shall explain to you the essence of the matter. Concerning this point there is a received tradition from the ancient Sages who made use of the Secret Knowledge of the Lesser Palaces, which is the manipulation of demons and a ladder by which one ascends to the prophetic levels. In this tradition it is made clear that Samael and Lilith were born as one, similar to the form of Adam and Eve who were also born as one, reflecting what is above. This is the account of Lilith which was received by the Sages in the Secret Knowledge of the Palaces. The Matron Lilith is the mate of Samael. Both of them were born at the same hour in the image of Adam and Eve, intertwined in each other. Asmodeus the great king of the demons has as a mate the Lesser (younger) Lilith, daughter of the king whose name is Qafsefoni. The name of his mate is Mehetabel daughter of Matred, and their daughter is Lilith.

This is the exact text of what is written in The Chapters of the Lesser Palaces as we have received it, word for word and letter for letter. And the scholars of this wisdom possess a very profound tradition from the ancients. They found it stated in those Chapters that Samael, the great prince of them all, grew exceedingly jealous of Asmodeus the king of the demons because of this Lilith who is called Lilith the Maiden (the young). She is in the form of a beautiful woman from her head to her waist. But from the waist down she is burning fire--like mother like daughter. She is called Mehetabel daughter of Matred, and the meaning is something immersed (mabu tabal). The meaning here is that her intentions are never for the good. She only seeks to incite wars and various demons of war and the war between Daughter Lilith and Matron Lilith.

They say that from Asmodeus and his mate Lilith a great prince was born in heaven. He is the ruler of eighty thousand destructive demons and is called "the sword of king Asmodeus." His name is Alefpene'ash and His face burns like a raging fire ('esh). He is also called Gurigur, for he antagonizes and struggles with the prince of Judah, who is called Gur Aryeh Yehudah (Lion-cub of Judah). From the same form that gave birth to this war-demon another prince, a prince whose root is in Kingdom, was born in heaven. He is called "the sword of the Messiah." He too has two names: Meshihi'el and Kokhvi'el. When the time comes and when God wishes, this sword will leave its sheath and verses of prophecy will come True: "For My sword shall be drunk in the heavens; Lo, it shall come down upon Edom" (Isaiah 34:5). "A star rises from Jacob" (Numbers; 24:17). Amen. Soon in our days may we merit to see the face of the Messiah our righteous one; we and all our people....

22. I shall now teach you a wonderful innovation. You already know that evil Samael and wicked Lilith are like a sexual pair who, by means of an intermediary, receive an evil and wicked emanation from one and emanate to the other. I shall explain this relying on the esoteric meaning in the verse "In that day the Lord will punish with His great, cruel, mighty sword Leviathan the twisted serpent and Leviathan the tortuous serpent"--this is Lilith--"and He will slay the dragon of the sea" (Isaiah 27:1). As there is a pure Leviathan in the sea and it is called a serpent, so there is a great defiled serpent in the sea in the literal sense. The same holds true above in a hidden way. The heavenly serpent is a blind prince, the image of an intermediary between Samael and Lilith. Its name is Tanin'iver[24] The masters of tradition said that just as this serpent slithers without eyes, so the supernal serpent has the image of a spiritual form without color--these are "the eyes." The tradiationists call it an eyeless creature, therefore its name is Tanin'iver. He is the bond, the accompaniment, and the union between Samael and Lilith. If he were created whole in the fullness of his emanation he would have destroyed the world in an instant. .

When the divine Will arrives and the emanation of Samael and Lilith weakens the emanation achieved by the blind prince, they will be completely annihilated by Gabriel prince of Strength, who instigates war against them with the aid of the prince of Lovingkindness. then the verse which we have expounded according to its secret meaning will come true....

So we still have this problem. Even if Lilith isn't in the Torah, or, as you allege, in the Zohar (which I still need to check), she certainly DID exist as a concept in Kabbalistic thought, and obviously she had to have come from somewhere to have been included in an "authentically Jewish" perspective of the universe. It's not like the Kohen brothers just suddenly inserted her into the Kabbalistic world-view.

Other links to Lilith in Jewish mysticism:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/ - scroll down to "Jewish mysticism". Note that several of the links provide multiple Zoharic quotes pertaining to Lilith. Is it your contention that these quotes are inaccurate, or merely that they don't refer to the Lilith we're talking about?

Ah thank you, it was the word "Yahwist" that I could never remember. Although, in my theology classes, we referred to the two authors as "priestly" (which I believe refers to the Elohim writings) and "Yahwist." They both had very different viewpoints on God and what was most important to convey.
Yup. According to my source, the Elohim text was reworked in the seventh century BC by an editor who brought the two mythologies together, and then once again after the Babylonian Exile during the fifth and fourth centuries. This last reworked text is the Priestly version (Genesis 1).