NationStates Jolt Archive

Lets hear your ideas on how peace can be achieved in Israel/Palestine without people getting killed....

Edit:Italics and stuff added for emphasis

Or if you have no ideas whatsoever- spam bullshit about nuking Israel and delivering Pizzas- hey if theres one thing thats good for a laugh its the arab-israeli conflict right?

Wow...this is going to be one short thread.

A Coup on the current leaders of the Arab states bordering Isreal. These men who are in power now only know how to act with violence, and if they remain in power, they will only respond to violence. Notice they start beging for mercy whenever Isreal flexs it's military muscles.

Wow...this is going to be one short thread.
Perhaps... :(

Just let me think about this for a minute...
*fast forward 20 years*
Nope, can't think of anything.

A Coup on the current leaders of the Arab states bordering Isreal. These men who are in power now only know how to act with violence, and if they remain in power, they will only respond to violence. Notice they start beging for mercy whenever Isreal flexs it's military muscles.

And the problem with that is, any peace will be short-lived. Pissed-off Arabs will start another intifadah sooner or later, and we will be right back where we are now - with one side having all the military might and the other having all the psychotic loons who blow themselves up and cause havoc on their aggressors.

The solution is to have the Arab states and the state of Israel be more or less balanced in military might and to have calmer, more rational governments on both sides, preferably democracies. Of course, this solution will take the better part of the century to come to anything resembling fruition, but if warring states in Europe have gone from bombing the hell out of each other to cooperating economically in a century, why the hell can't the Arab states?

Quoting a comidean.
"So apprantly the only reason the Jews are in the Middle East in the first place, is because of the Nazis... Well hell, lets just give the palaistians Berlin.

Step 1: Bombings of civilian targets ends (this is probably impossible since there is no way to coordinate it so that both sides will stop at the same time)

Step 2: Agreements are reached on land-distribution proposals that both sides are able to agree to (also impossible, many Palestinians want all of the land and so do some Israelis)

Step 3: Jerusalem is divided in two to accomodate a Palestinian and Jewish capital (impossible- Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and contains the site of the original Temple, a spot which is now occupied by a mosque which is very important to Islam, so both sides would want to control it)

Step 4: The new Palestinian state does not become dominated by religious extremists (perhaps impossible, since these organizations have become de-facto governments in many areas of the West Bank) and begins to address the massive humanitarian problems among its citizens (EXTREMELY difficult and has caused many countries to collapse that lacked the Palestinians other problems)

Step 5: The new Palestinian state becomes self-sufficient but does not choose to ally itself with other Arab states against Israel (a Palestinian state would be very unlikely to become self-sufficient due to economic ties to Israel which basically like those between the US and Mexico; ie Palestinians would just be cheap labor)

Step 6: The aliens come and destroy all life on the planet, ending the conflict forever (or at least until some of these aliens start fighting amongst each other over who controls what pieces of land)

How about universal adult suffrage in Israel? Give the people who live in land controlled by the Israeli government representation in the Israeli parliament?
Wouldnt that be a start?

What kind of messege do you think will be sent if the US cuts all its foreign aid to Israel citing human rights violations?

Yeah.

That one's easy!

The leaders of both Isreal and Palestine at the time get together to discuss peace while secretly planning war, like you do. However, when they look outside the room (they were alone), they find themselves to be warped to a magical and mysterious land, where they must rely on each other in order to get back home. In the end, they get back home, and go to the local independently owned pizza place to commemerate ont heir new friendship.

Evacuate Jerusalem and Nuke it.

Send the whole thing back to God. More people have died over that god-forsaken crust of earth than any other reason in the history of the World.

Any holy meaning that city had in the past has long been washed away in blood.

I'm with Luni on this one.

Ironically, the easiest way to end the Israili/Palestinian conflicts is to remove Israel. I'm sorry, but its the best way.

Grant an immediate Palestinian State.

Build them thier own country.

Step 1: Arm the nukes
Step 2: Launch the nukes
Step 3: Profit!?

Evacuate Jerusalem and Nuke it.

Send the whole thing back to God. More people have died over that god-forsaken crust of earth than any other reason in the history of the World.

Any holy meaning that city had in the past has long been washed away in blood.
That's one way. Give everyone ninety days to get out and then nuke the whole region till it glows.

I also have the Pot and Papa John's Plan for Peace.

Airlift in burning bales of good sticky weed, and follow it up in a couple of hours with airlifts of pizza delivery and Twinkies. Repeat as needed till everyone is fat and so stoned they love each other and get confused trying to be deep.

That's one way. Give everyone ninety days to get out and then nuke the whole region till it glows.

I also have the Pot and Papa John's Plan for Peace.

Airlift in burning bales of good sticky weed, and follow it up in a couple of hours with airlifts of pizza delivery and Twinkies. Repeat as needed till everyone is fat and so stoned they love each other and get confused trying to be deep.


If you dont tip that delivery driver, I will personally come after you.

You send a guy with thousands of pies over three thousand miles, you better give him a BIG ol tip.

If you dont tip that delivery driver, I will personally come after you.

You send a guy with thousands of pies over three thousand miles, you better give him a BIG ol tip.
You don't have to worry about me--I delivered pizzas out of my old '78 Honda Accord while I was in high school.

You don't have to worry about me--I delivered pizzas out of my old '78 Honda Accord while I was in high school.


Ahh I see you are a kindred soul.

Ahh I see you are a kindred soul.Hey man, I've worked in food service too many times over the last 20 years to ever treat anyone in that line of work badly. My first, most important rule of life is: Never, ever, fuck with the person who controls what you eat or drink. After all, you can always toss in an extra buck on the tip, but Visine in a margarita will give you the running shits.

As a working member of the pizza industry, I really must say that more people need to be nicer to us slaves :p.

And yes, I am a slave. I'm the pizzeria's bitch. That's right, the one scrubbing everything clean, making the pizzas, dealing with irate customers, closing it up at night-that's me. And I get the whopping minimum wage.

And no tips.




You can stop gasping in shock and horror now :p

Ironically, the easiest way to end the Israili/Palestinian conflicts is to remove Israel. I'm sorry, but its the best way.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but that sounds awfully close to Hitlers solution to "the Jewish Question" .
I was hoping for peeps to come up with ideas for peace in the region that dont involve mass murder/deportations or other fun totalitarian asshole stuff.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but that sounds awfully close to Hitlers solution to "the Jewish Question" .
I was hoping for peeps to come up with ideas for peace in the region that dont involve mass murder/deportations or other fun totalitarian asshole stuff.

He's not advocating killing ANYONE.

Just destroying the land :p

He's not advocating killing ANYONE.

Just destroying the land :p
Ah I have heard variations of that joke several dozen times- although usually the land being evacuated then nuked is Ireland and not Israel ;)

Anybody got any real ideas?

Anybody got any real ideas?

I stand by my idea :p

That one's easy!

The leaders of both Isreal and Palestine at the time get together to discuss peace while secretly planning war, like you do. However, when they look outside the room (they were alone), they find themselves to be warped to a magical and mysterious land, where they must rely on each other in order to get back home. In the end, they get back home, and go to the local independently owned pizza place to commemerate on their new friendship.

I mean, what can an after school special NOT cure? xD

As a working member of the pizza industry, I really must say that more people need to be nicer to us slaves :p.

And yes, I am a slave. I'm the pizzeria's bitch. That's right, the one scrubbing everything clean, making the pizzas, dealing with irate customers, closing it up at night-that's me. And I get the whopping minimum wage.

And no tips.




You can stop gasping in shock and horror now :p

You poor bastard.

I feel sorry for you guys.

You guys do more work than us driver types, and we make a lot more money than you.
Ive been on both sides, and driving the pies, is where the money is at.

I've seen tons of legit research saying that Palestinians actually don't have a hereditary claim to the land (in other words they are not the direct descendants of the original Muslims of the Holy Land). However, it is still a sacred site and holy to them.

I personally hate both sides - Sharon is an oppressive jerk and the Palestinians are represented by a bunch of goons.

Here are my solutions:

1. Get moderates like Barak and Abbas back in power. End the Occupation by Israeli forces, and redistribute land so that the Palestinians have more. Jerusalem can become an int'l city-state. Then both sides can join forces to take down extremists w/o all the collateral damage Sharon has done.

2. Same up to where the moderates take power. Then just merge the two lands into an Israel-Palestine (or Palestine-Israel), so they'll *have* to get along

3. Or do it the G-Gundam way:

Like the Neo-Japan colony from said show, we can just excavate Israel from the ground and set it in orbit. That way the Palestinians still get their "land." And while we're at it let's give em both Mobile Fighters! Israel can get Macabee Gundam with its Throwing Stars of David! Palestinians get Palestinian "Freedom-Fighter" Gundam with its only attack "Self-Destruct"

Lets hear your ideas on how peace can be achieved in Israel/Palestine without people getting killed....

Edit:Italics and stuff added for emphasisgive 1million$$ to every Israel Family for "moving expenses" and relocate Israel to Rhode Island

Step 1: Force everyone out of israel.
Step 2: Get Shovels
Step 3: Dig up Israel
Step 4: Attach Large Rockets to Irael
Step 5: Launch Israelrocket into the sun.
Step 6: Profit$!

y'all have quite a future in international diplomacy. id start working up your resumes, you are ALL shoe-ins for the state department (or whatever the equivalent is in your country)

"we" need to find a way to make it in the interest of the LEADERS of the arab world for there to be peace in israel. if they see a personal gain in peace, there will be peace. while it remains in their best interest to have a hard line destruction of israel stance, there will never be peace.

not that it would happen in a day but there would at least be the possibility that israel and palestine could work out a mutually beneficial settlement. it seems to me that the actual people of the 2 sides would really just like to have the opportunity to live in peace and live their own lives.

Lets hear your ideas on how peace can be achieved in Israel/Palestine without people getting killed....

Edit:Italics and stuff added for emphasis

Or if you have no ideas whatsoever- spam bullshit about nuking Israel and delivering Pizzas- hey if theres one thing thats good for a laugh its the arab-israeli conflict right?

I have no idea what to do, in fact I don't care, really- and I live in the middle of it.
And yeah, you're right, it's great for a laugh.

Give the land to a disinterested third party, who allows both Muslims and Jews to visit.

Lets hear your ideas on how peace can be achieved in Israel/Palestine without people getting killed....

Cut off the penis on every Arab male, but don't kill them. Wait sixty seven years.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but that sounds awfully close to Hitlers solution to "the Jewish Question" .
I was hoping for peeps to come up with ideas for peace in the region that dont involve mass murder/deportations or other fun totalitarian asshole stuff.

There is no such solution. The only thing that can work here is totalitarian stuff. Agreements are ignored by both sides and the main ambition is to kick the other side as far away as possible.
A complete solution would be to erase any of the fighting sides- but if killing all the palestinians, you'll have the arabic neighbors of the area to deal with, therefore the quickest solution would be to erase Israel- or if you'd like a fair solution, nuke the area,
ve ba le Zion goel.

Oh, but I sure wouldn't like you to use any of the offered solutions. That would hurt.

Why not try having Israel actually abide by the international laws put in place specifically for actions Israel is conducting? Israel should be called "Little America".

Lets catch everyone off guard and give it to the buhddists

Why not try having Israel actually abide by the international laws put in place specifically for actions Israel is conducting? Israel should be called "Little America".

Why should you do THAT...?

Oh, yes, we've always been proud of being the 50-something-th state of the USA.

A complete solution would be to erase any of the fighting sides- but if killing all the palestinians, you'll have the arabic neighbors of the area to deal with, therefore the quickest solution would be to erase Israel- or if you'd like a fair solution, nuke the area.hmm...But just before that...I say: we offer them a nice peaceful piece of land...like Rhode Island...and we ade some handsome $$$ compensation...Even If we give 500000$ per family....that would save a lot of taxes...billions.

The Middle East has what?.. Let's say 20 million Jews.. and about 350 million Muslims.

Best solution - relocate the people of Israel.. send them to the Northwest Territories or the Yukon territories.. No metropolitan areas there, right??..

And the Jews are the most resourceful people in history.. if you put them in any country, they will easily be incorporated into the society (well... except the Mideast.. I guess..) and I'm sure they will manage life very well.. (even avoid the mistakes they made in Israel)..

Or of course.. you can do humanity some good... and STOP THE FUC*ING PROPAGANDA and brainwashing... on both sides.. so they can get on in Palestine.. (incorporate the two peoples in a new country, like Gadafi proposed.. call it Islatine) LOL...

the only solution is to drive them all out make a christian super state (us guys also have a ligit claim to the holy land) move the Vatican there. Put all the palestinians and israles on top of mount everist (with no oxygen)and kilaweau (that really violently erupting volcano in hawai tht never stops erupting) and see what hapens

The Middle East has what?.. Let's say 20 million Jews.. and about 350 million Muslims.

Best solution - relocate the people of Israel.. send them to the Northwest Territories or the Yukon territories.. No metropolitan areas there, right??..

And the Jews are the most resourceful people in history...Yup...and give them some money to go...

Federal System of Government with Palestine and Israel having autonomous powers (subject to discussion)

it almost worked in yugoslavia (czechslokvakia) sp!

The Middle East has what?.. Let's say 20 million Jews.. and about 350 million Muslims.

Best solution - relocate the people of Israel.. send them to the Northwest Territories or the Yukon territories.. No metropolitan areas there, right??..

And the Jews are the most resourceful people in history.. if you put them in any country, they will easily be incorporated into the society (well... except the Mideast.. I guess..) and I'm sure they will manage life very well.. (even avoid the mistakes they made in Israel)..

Or of course.. you can do humanity some good... and STOP THE FUC*ING PROPAGANDA and brainwashing... on both sides.. so they can get on in Palestine.. (incorporate the two peoples in a new country, like Gadafi proposed.. call it Islatine) LOL...

Carry them away from their ancestral home??

The problem is that for most of the people living in the area, their claims to the land essentially boil down to "We're God's chosen people and He said this was our land." How do you combat that? As long as there's a significant minority of people who are willing to die because they believe that God gave them the right to shit on everyone else over a piece of land, you're going to have violence--there's no getting around it

The problem is that for most of the people living in the area, their claims to the land essentially boil down to "We're God's chosen people and He said this was our land." How do you combat that? As long as there's a significant minority of people who are willing to die because they believe that God gave them the right to shit on everyone else over a piece of land, you're going to have violence--there's no getting around it

So true.... and so sad..

Carry them away from their ancestral home??

Yup.. been done to a few other peoples in history..

Carry them away from their ancestral home??Our ancestral home was Europe(like most Americans)...now we live in America...

so what?

we are not willing to kill and Torture just to go back there....In fact we are doing quite well away-from-our-fatherLand

Israel should never have been founded in Arabland...that was invitation to genocide...

Israel should never have been founded in Arabland...that was invitation to genocide...

Oh, NOW you're saying it. Great!
And you know what, if we already talk about all this, Hitler should never have been elected in Germany, and the Europeans should never have killed the Indians in America.

Oh, NOW you're saying it. Great!
And you know what, if we already talk about all this, Hitler should never have been elected in Germany, and the Europeans should never have killed the Indians in America.
If you read my posts...

Im not only saying that Israel was created in the Wrong place...Im also saying what we(America) can do about it...today.

If you read my posts...

Im not only saying that Israel was created in the Wrong place...Im also saying what we(America) can do about it...today.

I know, I read them.

Step 1: Force everyone out of israel.
Step 2: Get Shovels
Step 3: Dig up Israel
Step 4: Attach Large Rockets to Irael
Step 5: Launch Israelrocket into the sun.
Step 6: Profit$!
Read my post - my 3rd solution is pretty similar

Let the U.N "Blue-Helmets" take over Israel, turn it into a multinational thing, have them govern and keep the peace there.

Our ancestral home was Europe(like most Americans)...now we live in America...

so what?

But most Americans were not forcibly removed from Europe and sent to America. What you are proposing is more akin to what happened with the slave trade, minus the slave industry.

In other words, kidnapping and forced relocation.

Now, why would anyone be opposed to that? :rolleyes:

Israel should never have been founded in Arabland...that was invitation to genocide...

Where should it have been founded? The same argument could be made about Israel being created ANYWHERE.

Israel shouldn't have been founded, period.

Israel shouldn't have been founded, period.




Exactly.

What you are proposing is more akin to what happened with the slave trade, minus the slave industry.

In other words, kidnapping and forced relocation.
.When did I ever say "forced"...The Jews that do want to stay in Arabland...can stay....God Bless them...

But they will no longer get Welfare(Billion$$) from American taxes...

Israel shouldn't have been founded, period.

Why?

When did I ever say "forced"...The Jews that do want to stay in Arabland...can stay....God Bless them...

Ah, I misunderstood you, my apologies.

But they will no longer get Welfare(Billion$$) from American taxes...

Why not? We give aid to tons of other countries, too. Why should we specifically cut Israel off?

Why not? We give aid to tons of other countries, too. Why should we specifically cut Israel off?We should cut at least 90% International Welfare...
the reamining 10% should be kept in a special emergency found....just for cases of famine...and should be given on a temporary basis

there is no peacefull solution to the arab-israeli confict. Screw the wierdos, lets just use the Arab oil and pretend to be friends as we always have.

We should cut at least 90% International Welfare...
the reamining 10% should be kept in a special emergency found....just for cases of famine...and should be given on a temporary basis



We should cut International Aid by 100%, and only introduce aid to countries who are fighting on our side in a possible future "World War" situation (like the Lend-Lease act from World War 2). That money could be better spent here, in America, where we can at least monitor it's usage. Food Aid often ends up in the hands of warlords, so why bother?

Israel shouldn't have been founded, period.
It's a little late for that now, isn't it? The question isn't whether or not Israel ought to exist--it's how to bring peace to the region considering the circumstances.

It's a little late for that now, isn't it? The question isn't whether or not Israel ought to exist--it's how to bring peace to the region considering the circumstances.



Like I said before, let the U.N take over and govern Israel.

Like I said before, let the U.N take over and govern Israel.

You call that a solution? You're going to need to beat the Israeli army, which is no mean feat, then keep fighting the Palestinian militants trying to fill the power vacuum.

And who do you think the UN is going to want to finance and fight this war?

I thought you said you wanted to END US involvement overseas...

You call that a solution? You're going to need to beat the Israeli army, which is no mean feat, then keep fighting the Palestinian militants trying to fill the power vacuum.

And who do you think the UN is going to want to finance and fight this war?

I thought you said you wanted to END US involvement overseas...




Well then, let's just cut all their funding, to both Israel and Arab nations, and let them handle it on their own. That's the best solution.

Simple expel the israeli state give it back to the philistines i know israel rewarded arabs in said state for patriotic feelings in 70's? but weaseling in 67? war breaking cease fires pinching land is enough to justify this US had to kick their arse to stop them.US should butt out no nukes in israel they dont need them.When israrel was founded Terrorist orgs demanded it and blew up King David hotel? grumpy bloody bastards back stabbing british ambassodors etc gaza strip and west bank should be united (or split between jordan and eh egypt so palistine dosent exist dumb idea really heard it though)ALL SETTLEMENTS in palistine lands should be destroyed wall torn down and if put up in or on israeli land not palistinian you cant expect palistine to retaliate for invasion of its lands

Simple expel the israeli state give it back to the philistines i know israel rewarded arabs in said state for patriotic feelings in 70's? but weaseling in 67? war breaking cease fires pinching land is enough to justify this US had to kick their arse to stop them.US should butt out no nukes in israel they dont need them.When israrel was founded Terrorist orgs demanded it and blew up King David hotel? grumpy bloody bastards back stabbing british ambassodors etc gaza strip and west bank should be united (or split between jordan and eh egypt so palistine dosent exist dumb idea really heard it though)ALL SETTLEMENTS in palistine lands should be destroyed wall torn down and if put up in or on israeli land not palistinian you cant expect palistine to retaliate for invasion of its lands

Let's try this:

A- Breathe.

B- Concentrate on what you're trying to say.

C- Type slowly.

D- Use punctuation.

Then try to post again.

Good luck.

You call that a solution? You're going to need to beat the Israeli army...nope....all we need to do is cut the welfare :D

If you think just pulling out is an option, then you don't care whether or not anyone survives the mess. If Israel perceives it is threatened with extinction, it'll nuke the whole region, like Samson pulling the temple down on his head and taking out the Philistines at the same time.

So what's the goal? Peaceful co-existence? Nuclear wasteland? Continued instability?

So what's the goal? Peaceful co-existence? Nuclear wasteland? Continued instability?The goal is to stop the madness....these guys Jews and Arabs cant live together...
The ultimate solution is to relocate Israel...
What other foolproof solution do you propose?

If you think just pulling out is an option, then you don't care whether or not anyone survives the mess. If Israel perceives it is threatened with extinction, it'll nuke the whole region, like Samson pulling the temple down on his head and taking out the Philistines at the same time.

So what's the goal? Peaceful co-existence? Nuclear wasteland? Continued instability?




There is still a SMALL (but existant) chance of nuclear wasteland in the Middleeast RIGHT NOW...Would you rather be Israels percieved ALLIES when and if that kind of shit goes down, or would you rather have just cut them off infront of the entire world, to make sure everybody "got it" that you don't support them anymore? It will be devastating to see the entire Middle-East nuked, but it's better than being entangled there forever. Besides, if it did turn into a burnt piece of pita bread, we would have no choice but to develop alternative fuels...

The goal is to stop the madness....these guys Jews and Arabs cant live together...
The ultimate solution is to relocate Israel...
What other foolproof solution do you propose?

Relocating Israel is a bigger pipe dream than negotiated settlement of a 2-state solution.

Foolproof? You must be joking.

Foolproof? You must be joking.
no im not...The madness have lasted long enough....

negotiated settlement? ha! Im not going to waste any sleep over that one....

Relocating Israel is a bigger pipe dream than.....Why is that?

no im not...The madness have lasted long enough....

negotiated settlement? ha! Im not going to waste any sleep over that one....

Exactly my point. We all know how slim the chances are for a negotiated settlement to work. If a n.s. is naive, your proposal is downright delusional.

Why is that?

Because it's extremely unlikely that any sizeable percentage of Israelis would agree to go, unless you paid them an exorbitant amount, and even then, that would still probably be a low number, relative to the number that would want to stay.

The only way it would work would be if it was forced relocation, which you've stated you wouldn't be in favor of (and which, in any case, would require us to fight -and beat- the Israeli army).

... your proposal is downright delusional.
like i said... why is that?

Read my last post.

Because it's extremely unlikely that any sizeable percentage of Israelis would agree to go, unless you paid them an exorbitant amount.1million/family? is that enough?

....would require us to fight -and beat- the Israeli army).like i said...all we need to do is stop the Welfare Billions....

1million/family? is that enough?

It might be, but you're assuming that money is the over-riding motivating factor here. And I'm unconvinced that's the case. I'm not saying that you wouldn't get SOME people, but I'm pretty certain that, as a practical plan to "solve" the conflict, this wouldn't work. Particularly since this would almost certainly further radicalize those Israelis that stayed.

If anything, this would just make things worse, as now you would be dealing with a paranoid and radicalized Israeli govt. (who now wants nothing to do with the US, who it sees as betraying it) and Palestinians & other Arab states trying to capitalize on Israeli weakness. Add in the problems this would create regarding Israel's demographic balance, and loss of IDF numbers (further reasons for Arab attacks and stronger Israeli retaliation), and all you've done is toss a firecracker into a kettle of shit.

Most importantly, let's not forget that the Israelis have nukes. If they see themselves as being in danger, they could use them. Even more importantly, if it ever comes to it, I have little doubt that an Israeli PM would resort to the "Masada plan"- blow Israel up before it can be taken by Arab armies.

Now, your first reaction might be, "fine".

But if Israel also blames us for making it happen...

Boom.

It might be, but you're assuming that money is the over-riding motivating factor here. And I'm unconvinced that's the case. I'm not saying that you wouldn't get SOME people, but I'm pretty certain that, as a practical plan to "solve" the conflict, this wouldn't work. Particularly since this would almost certainly further radicalize those Israelis that stayed.

If anything, this would just make things worse, as now you would be dealing with a paranoid and radicalized Israeli govt. (who now wants nothing to do with the US, who it sees as betraying it) and Palestinians & other Arab states trying to capitalize on Israeli weakness. Add in the problems this would create regarding Israel's demographic balance, and loss of IDF numbers (further reasons for Arab attacks and stronger Israeli retaliation), and all you've done is toss a firecracker into a kettle of shit.

Most importantly, let's not forget that the Israelis have nukes. If they see themselves as being in danger, they could use them. Even more importantly, if it ever comes to it, I have little doubt that an Israeli PM would resort to the "Masada plan"- blow Israel up before it can be taken by Arab armies.

Now, your first reaction might be, "fine".

But if Israel also blames us for making it happen...

Boom.All that work for me...

The Rational peaceful Jews leave to a new peacefull Israel...far from arablands...

The Warmongers Bankrupt ones stay...and do the "Masada" :D

All that work for me...

The Rational peaceful Jews leave to a new peacefull Israel...far from arablands...

The Warmongers Bankrupt ones stay...and do the "Masada" :D


And nuke the US. Brilliant plan. I can't imagine why you're not in government. Maybe you can replace Tom Ridge.

The most peaceful solution is physical separation, being the wall. It'd be far less likely for the Palestinians to launch attacks in Israel proper, meaning that the Israelis don't feel threatened, and strike in Palestinian areas. I've noticed it's been pretty quiet in Israel, so that wall is doing its job. Although really, it should be upgraded to a wall, and not merely a fence. But I'm trying to think which would be more effective: a Berlin style wall, or a Maginot line.

And nuke the US. Brilliant plan, that.Let me get this straigh...you say that we should keep giving welfare billions$ to Isreal..because otherwise they migth end up nuking us?

I say we have every rigth to stop giving the the Jews welfare.

Or to give a fraction to the ones that choose peace...

....I have little doubt that an Israeli PM would resort to the "Masada plan"- blow Israel up before it can be taken by Arab armies.

Now, your first reaction might be, "fine".


You got that rite...
"fine" Is my first reaction...
"fine" Is my 2nd reaction...
"fine" Is my 3rd reaction...
.
.
.
"fine" Is my 1000th reaction...

I don't think the range on Israeli nukes is long enough to strike the U.S.

Let me get this straigh...you say that we should keep giving welfare billions$ to Isreal..because otherwise thay migth end up nuking us?

I say we have every rigth to stop giving the the Jews welfare.

Or to give a fraction to the ones that choose peace...

I'm saying your plan is flawed because it would wind up alienating a huge proportion of Israelis, as well as make it more likely a doomsday-like catastrophe would occur in the region. This is particularly relevant to us because if the Israelis start planning to nuke their neighbors and then finally themselves, and BLAME US for putting them in that position, that it's totally conceivable they would also nuke us.

I'm saying right now Israel is an ally of the US, and a powerful one, at that. I'm saying our best interests are to help Israel actually achieve peace with its neighbors, not try to screw it by going around its back, bribing its citizens to leave, and cutting off its aid- what does that do, except drive it closer to doing something REALLY dangerous and dumb?

Right now, Israel's relationship with the US is like owning a tiger and her cubs as pets. I'm saying we should cultivate the relationship we have with them to ensure the best outcome- for them, us, and our neighbors.

You're advocating we steal the cubs, starve the mother, and hope she doesn't get pissed and eat our faces.

... I like my plan better.

I don't think the range on Israeli nukes is long enough to strike the U.S.
I know...but even if it was...thats no good reason to give them Welfare billion$

I don't think the range on Israeli nukes is long enough to strike the U.S.

I don't know any of the specifics to take a guess on that. It's not something I'd like to chance, though.

"fine" Is my 1000th reaction...

"Fine".

Give my regards to the atmosphere.

....
I'm saying right now Israel is an ally of the US....Osama mentioned 2 reason for the war against America...the first one was Israel...

Isreal is more of a liability...

everytime we go to war for Israel...we are going to lose european and asian allies...

...You're advocating we steal the cubs... America is rich...we dont need to steal nothing from Israel...in fact if we stop giving them money...they cant exist

The goal is to stop the madness....these guys Jews and Arabs cant live together...
The ultimate solution is to relocate Israel...
What other foolproof solution do you propose?
you are forgetting one very big thing

israel is the freaking PROMISED LAND.

the jews didnt move there because it was a nice friendly place just waiting to be developed

it was given to them BY GOD

do you really thing that $1million is enough to make someone DISS GOD?

they wont leave. its their home, their country, their religion.

plus massive numbers of american fundamentalist christians support the existance of israel IN THE HOLY LAND as some kind of fulfillment of the book of revelations.

and no, israel wouldnt nuke the US. they may have nukes but they dont have a delivery system that would reach the US even if they lost their minds and tried it.

Exactly...What's the difference between Israel nuking an American city, or a Terrorist group nuking a city because we support Israel? A nuked city is a nuked city, no matter how you look at it.


(By the way, I only advocate cutting off aid, not siphoning off it's citizens, as that other guy suggested..)


I don't think Israel has the technology to send a nuke that far, NO countries in that region have that technology.

That's one way. Give everyone ninety days to get out and then nuke the whole region till it glows.

I also have the Pot and Papa John's Plan for Peace.

Airlift in burning bales of good sticky weed, and follow it up in a couple of hours with airlifts of pizza delivery and Twinkies. Repeat as needed till everyone is fat and so stoned they love each other and get confused trying to be deep.

You've mentioned it before, and I like it. Best of all, the crew of that airplane would be more famous for dropping wacky weed and pizza than any other flight crew ever.

It's simple math; Have you ever seen an angry pothead?

the jews didnt move there because it was a nice friendly place just waiting to be developed

it was given to them BY GOD .....riiite...GOD also gave them the Tanks...the Bombers...the Apache helicopters...and the cluster bombs...GOD alse gave them the Mossad Torture tools and expertise....

If it was so important for GOD to move the Jews to Palestine....Why didnt he insert in the minds of all the Palestineans the irresitible desire to move somewhre nicer...you know like a telephatic mass eviction...

The most peaceful solution is physical separation, being the wall. It'd be far less likely for the Palestinians to launch attacks in Israel proper, meaning that the Israelis don't feel threatened, and strike in Palestinian areas. I've noticed it's been pretty quiet in Israel, so that wall is doing its job. Although really, it should be upgraded to a wall, and not merely a fence. But I'm trying to think which would be more effective: a Berlin style wall, or a Maginot line.

Perhaps it works now, but it does not give a outcome for the conflict.
Yes, there were less atacks but it also can be a coincidence. Of course that a Berlin Wall will make it more difficult to cross, but not impossible, regarding the history of the Berlin wall.

I tought I know solutions in the past but lost most (not all) hope. I know also that both people are still talking at lower levels then the political leaders and that they are many times frustrated about the way their leaders act while they continue to search a solution.

The one that finds here in this thread a acceptable solution will have the Noble Peace price and whil be remembered like King, Ghandi, Mandella aso.

But, I did not see it here :( (altough I saw some very rare wise thinking).

you are forgetting one very big thing

israel is the freaking PROMISED LAND.

the jews didnt move there because it was a nice friendly place just waiting to be developed

it was given to them BY GOD

do you really thing that $1million is enough to make someone DISS GOD?

they wont leave. its their home, their country, their religion.

plus massive numbers of american fundamentalist christians support the existance of israel IN THE HOLY LAND as some kind of fulfillment of the book of revelations.the fundamentalist Christians? they want the blood to keep running?

riiite...GOD also gave them the Tanks...the Bombers...the Apache helicopters...and the cluster bombs...GOD alse gave them the Mossad Torture tools and expertise....

If it was so important for GOD to move the Jews to Palestine....Why didnt he insert in the minds of all the Palestineans the irresitible desire to move somewhre nicer...you know like a telephatic mass eviction...

It wasn't. God sent the Jews to that shithole a few thousand years ago because it was better than being in Egypt's slaves. It was a shithole then, and guess what? It's still a shithole. But because 3000 years ago, it was better than egyptian slavery, A bunch of fools still want it.

Now, the fact that most of these fools were jewish is no nevermind. They'd be just as stupid if they were christians trying to reclaim the holyland. Which they were stupid enough to try too about 800 years ago. *sigh*

The real irony is that Israel probably could've been where Belgium is now if they had wanted it.

you are forgetting one very big thing
israel is the freaking PROMISED LAND.
the jews didnt move there because it was a nice friendly place just waiting to be developed
it was given to them BY GOD
do you really thing that $1million is enough to make someone DISS GOD?
they wont leave. its their home, their country, their religion.
plus massive numbers of american fundamentalist christians support the existance of israel IN THE HOLY LAND as some kind of fulfillment of the book of revelations.
and no, israel wouldnt nuke the US. they may have nukes but they dont have a delivery system that would reach the US even if they lost their minds and tried it.Israel is allegedly the Promised Land only because the religion of Israel tells so. And it's been that ways since ancient times. The whole Bible was only written to justify the invasion of Palestine by the Israelite tribes and to legitimize the existence of the Israelite petty realms in the hill country surrounded by civilized powers.

the fundamentalist Christians? they want the blood to keep running?
i dont believe it, im just telling you why your plan cant work.

i guess the answer to this question is YES. if thats what it takes to get and keep the jews in israel.

god promised it to them but they have to get and keep it. remember "joshua fought the battle of jericho"? *hums*

*shrug*

its not like smarter people than WE havent been working to solve this for quite a few years. if it were easy it would have been fixed in the 60s

The whole Bible was only written to justify the invasion of Palestine by the Israelite tribes and to legitimize the existence of the Israelite petty realms in the hill country surrounded by civilized powers.



I KNEW IT!

I ALLWAYS KNEW THE BIBLE WAS B.S! NOW WE HAVE PROOF!



<Ahem>, 'scuse me...

I KNEW IT!

I ALLWAYS KNEW THE BIBLE WAS B.S! NOW WE HAVE PROOF!



<Ahem>, 'scuse me...

Actually, now we have...opinion. ;) Which has been good enough to start was with, so what the hell? :)

i dont believe it, im just telling you why your plan cant work.Let me get this straigh...You are saying that fundamentalist christians are the voting majority?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians control the American Gov?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians can veto any initiative to stop the Military Aid to Israel?

I KNEW IT!
I ALWAYS KNEW THE BIBLE WAS B.S! NOW WE HAVE PROOF!
<Ahem>, 'scuse me...Alright, here we have a group claiming land. And the only source that justifies the claim by divine command was written by the selfsame people. How naive does one have to be not to see the lie in this? Why else would there be an account so much inconsistent with the religious set-up of the region at the time? All the historical accounts that are given in the Torah for the time after the coming of Abraham into the Levant seems to be fitting scientific findings (modern findings, not Victorian-Age findings on which so many Christians still dwell). But all that does not require any god. Is seems more likely that the Israelites just took the land by force and then claimed that some god had given it to them. But since that was common practice at the time, that claim is just worthless and remains worthless right until today.

Everyone is treating the Israelis as foreign invaders. What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years. It wasn't until there was massive immigration in the periods during and after WWI that this became a problem. Jews that lived in Palestine during that time OWNED the land they lived on. They did not just come in and squat on the land, they were its legal owners. The problem arose when they tried to claim self-determination and create a state on that land, and when they ended up controlling land that didn't have a Jewish majority.

Anyone familiar with the history of the state of Israel knows that there was originally a plan to divide the region into an Arab and a Jewish state according to population percentages, but it failed because the Arabs refused to accept it. This pissed the Jews off, so they declared their state in the areas that the plan would have given them. The Arabs then decided that they might as well get rid of their Jewish problem once and for all and attacked, attempting to destroy the new state and disperse its people. The combined armies of all of the surrounding states and the Arabs in that same area attacked. They failed. Furthermore, they were beaten so badly that Israeli forces seized control of the area that had been apportioned for the Palestinians in the UN deal. The Israelis, wary now that their neighbors had just tried to destroy them, decided not to give the land back (it is usually a bad idea to give land back to someone who just tried to kill you, since they may try to do so again). This is the beginning of the occupation of the Palestinian territories. Several more wars were fought in the area, but they failed to destroy Israel and cemented the opinion within Israel that it would be a very bad idea to ever give that land back.

In reply to the proposals that Israel and Palestine be combined into one state: Israel would never accept it, and it wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. Population growth rates clearly indicate that any combined state would eventually have a majority Palestinian population, which in a democracy means that the Palestinians would control the government. Now look at it this way: if you were the Israelis, and someone were asking you to give up your sovereignty to a group of people in which a sizeable minority has shown little compunction about killing your people whenever they felt like it, would you be at all eager to do so? I'm not saying that a Palestinian government would actually do anything, but it is a possibility which cannot be ruled out, especially given the influence that terrorist organizations currently have with the Palestinian people.

Everyone is treating the Israelis as foreign invaders. What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years.so..what you say is...we should give the Land to whoever was there the longest?

so..what you say is...we should give the Land to whoever was there the longest?

I never said that at all. You have a nasty habit of drawing unwarranted conclusions. We should split the area back up into the areas that were first proposed in the UN. It is the only fair solution.

Let me get this straigh...You are saying that fundamentalist christians are the voting majority?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians control the American Gov?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians can veto any initiative to stop the Military Aid to Israel?
when one of those fundamentalists is the president of the united states
YES

not that the democrats would consider it either

Lets catch everyone off guard and give it to the buhddists

Actually I have given this some thought.

My plan:
1: Stop all Jewish immigration and settlement into palestinian dominated areas.
2: Divide Israel into Jewish and Palestinian states.
3: Stop all government financial support or Israel. They are doing fine economically.
4: Introduce investment in infrastructure and education in the Palestinian areas from corporate and charitable organizations (including those from the US).
5: Jerusalem becomes an open independent city. The other other holy sites are administered by Jerusalem. Jerusalem is administered by His Holiness the 14th the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, with an advisory council of Rabbis, Imams, and various Christians, and is carried out by Tibetan exiles. Security forces are to be recruited from unemployed Ghurkas (http://www.overseas-recruitment-for-australian-businesses.com/Nepal-Recruitment.html).

Actually I have given this some thought.

My plan:
1: Stop all Jewish immigration and settlement into palestinian dominated areas.
2: Divide Israel into Jewish and Palestinian states.
3: Stop all government financial support or Israel. They are doing fine economically.
4: Introduce investment in infrastructure and education in the Palestinian areas from corporate and charitable organizations (including those from the US).
5: Jerusalem becomes an open independent city. The other other holy sites are administered by Jerusalem. Jerusalem is administered by His Holiness the 14th the Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, with an advisory council of Rabbis, Imams, and various Christians, and is carried out by Tibetan exiles. Security forces are to be recruited from unemployed Ghurkas (http://www.overseas-recruitment-for-australian-businesses.com/Nepal-Recruitment.html).

This is a joke, right? I can't tell because parts of it seem reasonable, others part I disagree with, while even more parts seem so outlandish I'm not sure if we are on the same planet.

This is a joke, right? I can't tell because parts of it seem reasonable, others part I disagree with, while even more parts seem so outlandish I'm not sure if we are on the same planet.

It is no more unteniable or outlandish than any of the other solutions suggested and more reasonable than several.

Perhaps the UN could give control of the Palestinian territories to France, and see what they do with it. They don't like the Americans and British doing things in the middle east, so why not give them a chance to fix things? Of course, it could end up about as bad as Iran, but it'd stop the French from whinging.

Everyone is treating the Israelis as foreign invaders. What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years. It wasn't until there was massive immigration in the periods during and after WWI that this became a problem. Jews that lived in Palestine during that time OWNED the land they lived on. They did not just come in and squat on the land, they were its legal owners. The problem arose when they tried to claim self-determination and create a state on that land, and when they ended up controlling land that didn't have a Jewish majority.

Anyone familiar with the history of the state of Israel knows that there was originally a plan to divide the region into an Arab and a Jewish state according to population percentages, but it failed because the Arabs refused to accept it. This pissed the Jews off, so they declared their state in the areas that the plan would have given them. The Arabs then decided that they might as well get rid of their Jewish problem once and for all and attacked, attempting to destroy the new state and disperse its people. The combined armies of all of the surrounding states and the Arabs in that same area attacked. They failed. Furthermore, they were beaten so badly that Israeli forces seized control of the area that had been apportioned for the Palestinians in the UN deal. The Israelis, wary now that their neighbors had just tried to destroy them, decided not to give the land back (it is usually a bad idea to give land back to someone who just tried to kill you, since they may try to do so again). This is the beginning of the occupation of the Palestinian territories. Several more wars were fought in the area, but they failed to destroy Israel and cemented the opinion within Israel that it would be a very bad idea to ever give that land back.

In reply to the proposals that Israel and Palestine be combined into one state: Israel would never accept it, and it wouldn't make any sense for them to do so. Population growth rates clearly indicate that any combined state would eventually have a majority Palestinian population, which in a democracy means that the Palestinians would control the government. Now look at it this way: if you were the Israelis, and someone were asking you to give up your sovereignty to a group of people in which a sizeable minority has shown little compunction about killing your people whenever they felt like it, would you be at all eager to do so? I'm not saying that a Palestinian government would actually do anything, but it is a possibility which cannot be ruled out, especially given the influence that terrorist organizations currently have with the Palestinian people.Why should the Arabs have accepted a division plan that was forced upon them by the West? Look which country voted for what in that unholy UN resolution. Israel is the reason why there is no unified Arab nation as it should exist after the Arabs' century-long oppression by the Turks and the promises given by the British after the collapse of Turkish rule in the region. And the Jews living there would not have been a problem for the Arabs, they've been getting along for a long time prior to 1917. The problem was created when the Jews immigrated into Palestine en masse for ideological and racist reasons. And after all, Judaism is just a religion and not a people. I mean, should the Catholics claim Italy?

Everyone is treating the Israelis as foreign invaders. What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years.so..what you say is...we should give the Land to whoever was there the longest?I never said that at all. You have a nasty habit of drawing unwarranted conclusions.
You say "What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years"...thats your words...what that means to me is that length of residence is very important...or is it not?

so..what you say is...we should give the Land to whoever was there the longest?
You say "What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years"...thats your words...what that means to me is that length of residence is very important...or is it not?

Well if this is the case, all of us who live in North America should pack up and leave, after all, this is the Native Americans land, not ours..

You want to know something really screwed up? Genetically, there is virtually no difference between Arabs and ethnic Jews. None. For all the claims of purity of bloodline, there is no reputable evidence to suggest that there's anything other than a religious tradition separating Arabs from Jews, so for any of those groups to suggest that they're a "chosen people" is ludicrous.

And yet, it's that very argument that's at the root of the violence. Until we get past that, there's never going to be an end to it. As long as people cling to the belief that some supernatural being gives enough of a shit about where people live on this planet (like He doesn't have better things to do with His time--doesn't he have Tetris?), then we're going to have violence. It's ridicuous, but that's what comes down to.

You want to know something really screwed up? Genetically, there is virtually no difference between Arabs and ethnic Jews. None.My friend who lived in Israel says there was a differnce...the "mustache"...he also said that there was some 10% caucasians...

My friend who lived in Israel says there was a differnce...the "mustache"...he also said that there was some 10% caucasians...
When you go back to the archaeological findings in the area--the ones that seem to discredit most of the historicity of the Old Testament prior to the reign of King Josiah--they indicate that the people who became the Israelites were from the same genetic stock as the surrounding tribal people who became the Arabs. Somewhere along the way they separated themselves through religion and that would explain what little genetic drift existed before the diaspora, and then of course there's no guarantees that the bloodlines of Jews remained "pure" while they were scattered throughout Europe and elsewhere. But there's little question that the Israelites and Arabs sprang from the same genetic stock.

You want to know something really screwed up? Genetically, there is virtually no difference between Arabs and ethnic Jews.

There is virtually no difference between any Homo sapiens. Not a big difference between chimpances either. I hope you dont think this would be a reason for anything, war peace or whatever.

There is virtually no difference between any Homo sapiens. Not a big difference between chimpances either. I hope you dont think this would be a reason for anything, war peace or whatever.
In a world that made sense, it wouldn't be a reason for anything. Unfortunately...

so..what you say is...we should give the Land to whoever was there the longest?
You say "What it is important to remember is that Jews have been living there for thousands of years"...thats your words...what that means to me is that length of residence is very important...or is it not?

Nothing I said should have given you the impression that I felt that length of residence is at all important. Instead of just taking one comment out of context, try reading the whole thing. I said that the Jews have been living there for thousands of years to show that they didn't just show up one day and say "Give us your land". Much of the land was already theirs (outside of the West Bank, that is). People have a tendency to forget that the current boundaries of the state of Israel were NEVER what they were originally intended to be. The only meaningful dialogue must be when the West Bank will be returned to the Palestinian, not when we are going to dismantle the state of Israel.

a gd solution which involves no killing is simply maming every1
gas would be preferable

Why should the Arabs have accepted a division plan that was forced upon them by the West? Look which country voted for what in that unholy UN resolution. Israel is the reason why there is no unified Arab nation as it should exist after the Arabs' century-long oppression by the Turks and the promises given by the British after the collapse of Turkish rule in the region. And the Jews living there would not have been a problem for the Arabs, they've been getting along for a long time prior to 1917. The problem was created when the Jews immigrated into Palestine en masse for ideological and racist reasons. And after all, Judaism is just a religion and not a people. I mean, should the Catholics claim Italy?

Oh, so if the British promise the Arabs a unified state they should get it, but that same guarantee doesn't matter when applied to the Jews? Furthermore, it is extremely unlikely that there will ever be a unified Arab state again; too many internal divisions exist to prevent that from happening. When the Arabs refused the UN partition plan, they did it based on the principle that no land in the area should ever be claimed by non-Arabs, so how more racist can you get? And I hope when you say that they immigrated for "ideological and racist reasons" you are not trying ot imply that the Jews that went there were racist. Also, you do not truly understand the admittedly vague concept of Judaism as a religion AND as a people. It is both, although there is no general consensus as to what makes a person racially Jewish.

Oh, so if the British promise the Arabs a unified state they should get it, but that same guarantee doesn't matter when applied to the Jews? Furthermore, it is extremely unlikely that there will ever be a unified Arab state again; too many internal divisions exist to prevent that from happening. When the Arabs refused the UN partition plan, they did it based on the principle that no land in the area should ever be claimed by non-Arabs, so how more racist can you get? And I hope when you say that they immigrated for "ideological and racist reasons" you are not trying ot imply that the Jews that went there were racist. Also, you do not truly understand the admittedly vague concept of Judaism as a religion AND as a people. It is both, although there is no general consensus as to what makes a person racially Jewish.But the Arabs were already living in the land when it was sliced up into petty states that could be easily ruled by the colonial powers. divide et impera, you know. And this division of the Middle East was maintained until today. And the Jews were only a minority in the land, so why should they be allowed to claim Palestine and western Transjordan for themselves? And it is every people's right to decide that no foreigner should own land in the country, and the immigrating Jews were clearly foreigners in Palestine. At first the Palestinians were helping those Jews coming out of Europe to settle in Palestine but then the Jews became a nightmare because of their great number (which btw reminds me of something I have read in the Bible recently) and because of their way of demanding possession of the land. This zionist movement had the aim to remove all non-Jews from the "Holy land". Btw zionism is racism, there is a UN resolution on that.
I do in fact understand pretty well the vague concept of Judaism as a religion and a people. But I do not agree. When the Jews went into the diaspora after the destruction of the Temple (and the removal of its corrupt Temple-clique) they stopped being a people. They mingled with the populations of those countries they moved to, or do you want to tell be they only inbred in 1878 years? The only ones who could be considered Jews as a people are those who had remained in Palestine all through the Roman, Byzantine and Islamic times, but suerly not those emigrating from Europe and Asia.
My position is: you can believe whatever you want, as long as you do not state claims based on your beliefs in a imagined deity, and especially a deity that is as racist and discriminating as the god worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims. This strange deity (combined out of many other deities of ancient times) on which the Jews are so proud to have given to the world has only brought woe and destruction for humankind.

Ankher, you aren't qualified to decide what is and is not a race. Nobody is. If a group of people wants to call themselves a race, they can do that. Also, Israel doesn't claim transjordan, being as how that is on the other side of the Jordan River, ie the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. Also, you keep claiming that Israel plans to keep the Palestinian territories forever. There is a significant debate going on in Israel itself between those who want to keep it and those who want to give it up, and the latter party seems to be winning. Occupation of the Palestinian territories is one of the accidents of history, not an indictment of Israel's right to exist on the part of that land in which Jews are a demographic majority.

Osama mentioned 2 reason for the war against America...the first one was Israel...

He also said America was a "land of Satan and Crusaders". The guy's not exactly operating with a full deck.

we are going to lose european and asian allies...

Bush has already done that thanks to his other foreign policies. Israel has little to do with it.

And when has America gone to war for Israel?

America is rich...we dont need to steal nothing from Israel...in fact if we stop giving them money...they cant exist

"Stealing the cubs" was referring to enticing Israelis to leave Israel. It would be akin to trying to entice a tiger's cubs away from it- and would be viewed as theft or kidnapping.

Let me get this straigh...You are saying that fundamentalist christians are the voting majority?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians control the American Gov?...You are saying that fundamentalist christians can veto any initiative to stop the Military Aid to Israel?

Fundementalist xians make up about 20 percent of the US population. It's not necessarily a voting majority, but it's a sizeable chunk, and they have influence beyond merely their own populations (psst... White House).

But there's also the issue that religious Jews won't support this, either. In America, or Israel.

Alright, here we have a group claiming land. And the only source that justifies the claim by divine command was written by the selfsame people. How naive does one have to be not to see the lie in this?

It's not necessarily a lie; it's theology, which has its own categories of truthfulness.

And, point of fact, Jewish claims to the land are about as legitimate as Palestinian ones- at least there's SOME archaeological (and textual) evidence supporting the theory that at one point, a Jewish state existed there.

There's nothing supporting the position that a Palestinian state ever did.

Why should the Arabs have accepted a division plan that was forced upon them by the West?

Most of "the Arabs" who would actually been affected by the plan had never owned any land there in the first place. There was no more justification to make it a "Palestinian state" than a Jewish one.

Israel is the reason why there is no unified Arab nation as it should exist after the Arabs' century-long oppression by the Turks and the promises given by the British after the collapse of Turkish rule in the region.

Prove it.

And the Jews living there would not have been a problem for the Arabs, they've been getting along for a long time prior to 1917.

Hebron massacre, 1928. Native Palestinian Jews, living in a city holy to Judaism. Murdered by their "peaceful" Arab neighbors.

The problem was created when the Jews immigrated into Palestine en masse for ideological and racist reasons.

No more "racist" than their Palestinian counterparts who denounced them as foreign-born imperialists.

And no more "ideological" than any other national movement. What is pan-Arabism, but ideology? :rolleyes:

And after all, Judaism is just a religion and not a people.

Not according to the Jews. And it seems they would be the ones to ask.

For all the claims of purity of bloodline, there is no reputable evidence to suggest that there's anything other than a religious tradition separating Arabs from Jews, so for any of those groups to suggest that they're a "chosen people" is ludicrous.

The "chosen people" doctrine, at least in Judaism, is not related to any conception of "purity of bloodline". Any convert to Judaism is considered part of the Jewish people, and as such, included as one of "the chosen".

And yet, it's that very argument that's at the root of the violence. Until we get past that, there's never going to be an end to it. As long as people cling to the belief that some supernatural being gives enough of a shit about where people live on this planet (like He doesn't have better things to do with His time--doesn't he have Tetris?), then we're going to have violence. It's ridicuous, but that's what comes down to.

I disagree. Religion has been used as an excuse and crutch in this conflict. I don't think it's the root cause. The root causes, IMO, are basic politics, power, and greed- concepts that are all too familiar in the secular world. Religion is used as a "front" by political leaders under the argument that "you can't negotiate with religion".

But the Arabs were already living in the land when it was sliced up into petty states that could be easily ruled by the colonial powers. divide et impera, you know.

And they had been living in the land when it was owned by absentee Ottomon landlords. That doesn't mean they OWNED it. Any more than the millions of black slaves in the Confederate states "owned" the South.

And the Jews were only a minority in the land, so why should they be allowed to claim Palestine and western Transjordan for themselves?

Why shouldn't they have been allowed to MAKE THEIR CLAIM, and let the Arab Palestinians make THEIRS, and leave it to an arbiter to come to a reasonable solution? The only reason anyone would be opposed to a theoretically unbiased arbitration would be if they had already decided one of the sides had NO legitimate argument. And as I've already stated, this does not seem to be the case for either group. One claim seems just about as reasonable as another.

And it is every people's right to decide that no foreigner should own land in the country

Says who?

and the immigrating Jews were clearly foreigners in Palestine.

Who bought their land legally from the people who owned it- both wealthy Palestinians and absentee Turkish landlords.

At first the Palestinians were helping those Jews coming out of Europe to settle in Palestine but then the Jews became a nightmare because of their great number

Prove it.

and because of their way of demanding possession of the land.

Prove it.

This zionist movement had the aim to remove all non-Jews from the "Holy land".

No, SOME Zionist schools of thought had that aim. Others had the exact opposite. There has always been a range of thought in Zionism, as in Judaism. Some Zionists proposed a Jewish state next to an Arab state. Some proposed a Jewish state with an Arab minority, possessing full citizenship rights. Still others proposed the idea of a bi-national Jewish-Arab state, but that would still embrace the nationalistic doctrines of Zionism AND Pan-Arabism.

And yes, there were also Zionists who believed in territorial maximalism, and in making their conquered territory "Arab-rein". They were, incidentally, in the minority- not that you care about pesky things like facts or context.

Btw zionism is racism

Your opinion. Feel free to prove it.

there is a UN resolution on that.

No, there WAS a UN resolution "on that"; it was passed in 1975, and was REVOKED in 1991. Do your research.

I do in fact understand pretty well the vague concept of Judaism as a religion and a people.

So you were deliberately misrepresenting Judaism before. AKA, lying.

But I do not agree.

Relevance? Your opinion on a given religion's self-perception is irrelevant when you purport to be speaking about a general "truth". That would be like me saying, "Muslims, after all, are just Arabs"- I might know that Muslims believe any race can convert to Islam, but hey, maybe I just disagree with that. :rolleyes:

When the Jews went into the diaspora after the destruction of the Temple (and the removal of its corrupt Temple-clique) they stopped being a people.

Proof?

They mingled with the populations of those countries they moved to, or do you want to tell be they only inbred in 1878 years?

Since when is the only definition of "people" based on race?

The only ones who could be considered Jews as a people are those who had remained in Palestine all through the Roman, Byzantine and Islamic times, but suerly not those emigrating from Europe and Asia.

So says you. Too bad the only person you have authority over is... you.

My position is: you can believe whatever you want, as long as you do not state claims based on your beliefs in a imagined deity

So, in other words, you can believe whatever you want, as long as you don't believe in any sort of God. Or, if you do, that you keep your mouth shut.

Wow, a real paragon of tolerance, aren't you?

1. Isreal should complete that wall of theirs.
2. Enforce universal suffrage within the walled territories
3. Syria should remove the 15,000 troops it has stationed in lebanon near the isrealie border, letting the lebanese have full autonomy.
4. Stop funding to hizbollah and such groups (can't reach isreal with the wall in place so they don't need all that money).
5. Isreal should start to offer reparations instead of land. Too many palestinians now, as a group their population as grown substantially in the last 30 years. Its unrealisitic that they could all go home.
6. the land in isreal that is uninhabited but was once lived on by palestinians, should be offered to the descendents along with citizenship.
7. the nations in the area, or the ones that are still officially at war with isreal should sign a peace treaty. Gives isreal less reason to worry about their neighbours, and might help create a bit of stability.
8.Keep the wall in place for a while, sign trade treaties and such with each other.
9. Islamic press, should get its act together and stop portraying themsleves as continuous victims or everybody. Separate the current terrorist/rebel/freedom groups into normal categories: national/ethnic/religious/etc...
10. Take the wall down in 20 years or so.

11. Isreal should stop bombing the crap out of palestinians

bump

I can't believe this thread hasn't died yet.
What's so interesting about us anyway?
Hey people! Have you been all that interested in the Rwanda Genocide 10 years ago? The Ivory Coast war? What the hell, right now South Sudan is being destroyed by militants. Do you care as much?!
Hey, people in North Korea are killed in GAS CHAMBERS, for crying out loud!
Are you interested just as well?!
Get off the Mid-East, dammit, when we'll need you, we'll give you a call.

Well, both sides have been crying "foul!" at the international community for the past 30 years.

Well, both sides have been crying "foul!" at the international community for the past 30 years.

Half of the world is crying "foul!".
You just oughtta listen sometimes.

Half of the world is crying "foul!".
You just oughtta listen sometimes.

While it's true that Israel/Palestine gets more media coverage than most other conflicts it may be so recently because of 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

I got a great way to end this...well not really...but technically my answer is logical...and since my answer is logical, you must stop saying "Palestinians" or Arabs should get half, all, 1%, whatever of the land. For this one reason...


The Jew's conquered the land..the Jew's are able to keep the land...Thus the Jew's get to keep the land until they are conquered.

The Same applies to the Basque and Indians and Tibetans and anyone else that was conquered.

Face it, Israel holds all the cards... it can keep the land from here to Judegment Day or until the Sun blows out...whichever comes first.

I don't know why you people can't grasp this simple concept.

If the Indians let's say magically conquered North America...should they give the land back the Modern Americans? If Tibet manages to oust the Chinese army..should we give China maybe a bit of the land because they like it?

The same applies to anywhere...we are no civilized today then we were 1000, 2000, 4000 years ago...the only thing that has changed is our Technology. I'm sure 3000 years ago people were probaly discussing the exact things we are today... sure they aren't probably all noted but that doesnt mean they didn't happen.

So heed my words...and stop talking about any occupation conflict... anywhere in the world... I don't care if the citizens are being skinned alive, no Country should be able to dictate another countries laws...the only time they will be allowed to intervene is if they don't allow the refugees to escape.

I can't believe this thread hasn't died yet.
What's so interesting about us anyway?
Hey people! Have you been all that interested in the Rwanda Genocide 10 years ago? The Ivory Coast war? What the hell, right now South Sudan is being destroyed by militants. Do you care as much?!
Hey, people in North Korea are killed in GAS CHAMBERS, for crying out loud!
Are you interested just as well?!
Get off the Mid-East, dammit, when we'll need you, we'll give you a call.

Yes. What been going on with the Tutsis and Hutus is terrible beyond belief.
What happened in south Sudan was terrible and whats happening in Estern Sudan now is just as bad.
Unfortunately i know little about what going on in N. Korea

Kerenor, remember more people know about whats going on in the Middle East than anywhere else. Unfortunately that makes it a more debatable.

Kerenor, if you want to talk about something else, start your own thread. Otherwise, read the title of this thread. This is what we are talking about. The title of the thread was not "COme here to discuss all of the problems of the world". If it had been, i would hope that the Arab-Israeli Conflict would not be the only thing that we were talking about. But as the thread IS about that, either you have something to say or you stay out of it.

Those stupid fundementalist leaders, do all this for thier own financial and power purpose, this happend in many countries! and lack of education from local populations

There is virtually no difference between any Homo sapiens. Not a big difference between chimpances either. I hope you dont think this would be a reason for anything, war peace or whatever.
I remember...The College Aplication had a field for "race"....the choices were something like:
#White/Caucasian
#Afroamerican
#Spanic/Latin
#Asian
....
In the streets...I can tell the differences...ez....

What Incertonia is talking about...is that Arabs and Isralits-Jews are the same race.
Only a different religion....

Hmm, this must have started with Tiglath-pileser III and forced re-settlement throughout his empire... the dispersement of the 12 tribes. You'd go back home, and the neighborhood is all different... bummer. And, then they go and change the details of "the" faith whilst you're away... blasphemers! Thousands of years ago, it was grain. Now it's oil. Peaceful solution? Without casualties? We only need wait another decade or so, and the faithful will anihilate each other atomically.

What is with you people and thinking that every problem can be solved with nukes!...as much as this is true...I like Israel...mainly because im Jewish...but still... Who would you rather have control the Mid-East? The average Arab who tends to hate everyone but his own kind...or the Jew's who would probaly lower prices, and well...let's just say if the Jew's took it over there'd be less problems...well only saying that if the Arabs were to be subjugated...or annihilated...whichever comes first. :)

Kerenor, remember more people know about whats going on in the Middle East than anywhere else. Unfortunately that makes it a more debatable.

And most people generally don't tend to know all that much about the Middle-East to begin with.

Which suggests some very frightening implications for their knowledge of the rest of the world.

What is with you people and thinking that every problem can be solved with nukes!...as much as this is true...I like Israel...mainly because im Jewish...but still... Who would you rather have control the Mid-East? The average Arab who tends to hate everyone but his own kind...or the Jew's who would probaly lower prices, and well...let's just say if the Jew's took it over there'd be less problems...well only saying that if the Arabs were to be subjugated...or annihilated...whichever comes first. :)No...I do not want anyone in particular to control their neighbors...I want peace...

Peace would be good, but it is quite unlikely to come about any time soon.

I've been reading about the stockpiles of chemical weapons around the world that haven't yet been destroyed. Perhaps one could just turn the occupied territories (because they are still internationally recognised as not being a part of any nation) into a huge chemical weapons destruction site. It'd take a few years to build, provided there are no problems from people in the area, and security could be provided by all the nations that have these weapons still around, such as America, Russia, China, Panama, Australia, Japan, Syria, etc. It could provide a lot of work for the Palestinians if they wanted it, giving them something to do instead of blowing themselves up.

However, there are many problems with this idea. Transporting all the chemicals there in the first place is a big one; along with keeping the weapons secure and the prevention of leaks. Some of these chemicals have been around from WW1.

Isreal is just been unfair and are using their jewish cover to persecute muslim,this is just an ethnic cleansing in jerusalem, if cuba occupied florida today what should US, stand there and not respond with violence. there won't be peace in the world if religions can't tolerate each other. i don't care if iraq made a nuclear weapon, or if iran is making one, leave them alond and they won't bother you. and i recommend small nations to pull out of the UN. i am a nigerian and the world bank says you must pay the big debts before the small one. all they want is countries to continue paying heavy interests on debt. the worldbank,IMF,UN is just a cover by america and europe countries to continue the enslavement of the african race

people say arabs are haters, but the jews are worse they pray for peace and tolerance and instead they try to kill the families of hammas leader, they are threatening to attack iran and syria, they want to steal Gaza and WEst bank, and they want jerusalem for themselves. the jews are turning from the persecuted to the persecutors,they haven't learnt how to tolerate after what Hitler and Stalin did. Ariel Sharon is a fraud he says it would hand over Gaza and keep the west bank, gaza is just a barren land, west bank is full of riches,
these isrealis are not religious as we think they are, they are just thieves depriving poor arabs of their right, they bulldoze old people's homes in the name of terrorist, if i was a palestinian, i would enroll in hamaz if someone kills my parents and bulldoze our homes. An eye for an eye as the religion says

people say arabs are haters, but the jews are worse they pray for peace and tolerance and instead they try to kill the families of hammas leader, they are threatening to attack iran and syria, they want to steal Gaza and WEst bank, and they want jerusalem for themselves. the jews are turning from the persecuted to the persecutors,they haven't learnt how to tolerate after what Hitler and Stalin did. Ariel Sharon is a fraud he says it would hand over Gaza and keep the west bank, gaza is just a barren land, west bank is full of riches,
these isrealis are not religious as we think they are, they are just thieves depriving poor arabs of their right, they bulldoze old people's homes in the name of terrorist, if i was a palestinian, i would enroll in hamaz if someone kills my parents and bulldoze our homes. An eye for an eye as the religion says

Ah but does it not also say turn the other cheek?

*clears throat*

all right listen....really everybody look at what i'm saying...forget past posts!


Isreal is just been unfair and are using their jewish cover to persecute muslim

AND they're using their muslim cover as an excuse to take over Israel...

if cuba occupied florida today what should US, stand there and not respond with violence.

Your absolutely right! They would respond with war and attack...but what would USA do if Cuba successfully occupied it? Would it still be declared American land? or Cuban Land? well to answer your question, it would be Cuban land.

there won't be peace in the world if religions can't tolerate each other.

Israel tolerates all religion...but it's kinda hard to tolerate someone who's trying to kill you and your family on a daily basis.

i don't care if iraq made a nuclear weapon, or if iran is making one, leave them alond and they won't bother you.

Sure....and while we're at let's legalize crack as well.
Those leaders are psycho, and would conquer the world if given the chance...or have you never heard of history before.

and i recommend small nations to pull out of the UN. i am a nigerian and the world bank says you must pay the big debts before the small one. all they want is countries to continue paying heavy interests on debt. the worldbank,IMF,UN is just a cover by america and europe countries to continue the enslavement of the african race

You honestly think they could take care of themselves if left alone? they;ve had thousands of years to create their own nations...yet all they do is have small towns, each with their own religion and kill people.

Every other place in the world evolved...why not them?! Heck even the indians in North and South America, had their own nation.

people say arabs are haters, but the jews are worse they pray for peace and tolerance and instead they try to kill the families of hammas leader

I'm sorry but we don't live in backwards countries that allows terrorists and their families to exist. Plus in case you didn't know, they dont kill the families on purpose; They tell them to get the heck out of the house 24 hours in advance, so they can make sure nothing happens there again. But unfortunatly they're idiots, and suicide themselves to make the Israeli's look bad.

they are threatening to attack iran and syria, they want to steal Gaza and WEst bank, and they want jerusalem for themselves.

Iran and Syria have also threatened to destroy them on a daily basis and drive them out to sea...oh yeah and also want Jerusalem for themselves.

the jews are turning from the persecuted to the persecutors,they haven't learnt how to tolerate after what Hitler and Stalin did.

We tolerate...they would just rather kill us instead...plus Stalin was fine with jews...he even gave them and autonomous nation where they were free to practice their own religion. It was more like after his death that Jew's were persecuted by Stalin.

Ariel Sharon is a fraud he says it would hand over Gaza and keep the west bank, gaza is just a barren land, west bank is full of riches.

They don't want to keep JUDEA and SAMARIA because of the riches...it's because that's where our Matriach's and Patriach's are buried. Plus Israel terraformed the land to make it good...we just haven't got to Gaza yet because there are little jews and MOST of the land was already under PA control in a sense.

these isrealis are not religious as we think they are, they are just thieves depriving poor arabs of their right, they bulldoze old people's homes in the name of terrorist

And i guess muslims aren't as religious as we thought either, since it's against Islam to commit suicide...and your supposed to promote Peace and Tolerance. And once again they bulldoze TERRORISTS HOMES! they don't care for age... Should we leave Sharon alone because he's old? that's exactly what your saying.

On another note, can someone show me 2 things...

1. Where does it say Mohammed ascended to haven in Jerusalem
2. Where does it say Jerusalem is their holy land as well..

if i was a palestinian, i would enroll in hamaz if someone kills my parents and bulldoze our homes. An eye for an eye as the religion says.

And then you would be just as stupid as the people in Hamas.... Because you knew in your head, that they bulldozed your home and killed them because they killed Jew's and basically caused Terror in general.



Any Questions?

Ah but does it not also say turn the other cheek?
No that's another religion.

Someone here said people know more about the middle-east conflict than about conflicts anywhere else.
That's true, but the information they recieve is:
1) Never, never, never accurate
2) biased (more to the Paletinian side mostly)
3) In lack of many many details.
I believe the only people who can understand the conflict the best are those who live here in the area, or those of us who listen to several news sources, and research, instead of taking everything the reporter says like he's god.

A common mistake, for examle, is that too many people think the Israelis want this land because 'god promised it to them'.
News flash people - More than 80% of the Israelis are secular! And guess what, there are less than 10 out of 120 seats in the Israeli parliament that represent religious parties!
Not many know this, but there are also 4 Arab muslim parliament members in Israel! Now who says we oppress muslims?
While almost all Palestinians are religious. Meaning, the religious excuse is not used by the Israelis, but it seems that's what everyone thinks...

So cut the crap, let people in the area talk about stuff happening in their area, or at least do some research before actually posting anything.
I hate seeing people just throwing pieces of info to the air, that I've never heard of. You don't see Israelis telling China what to do with Tiwan, right? You don't see Israelis telling Russia what to do with Chechnya right? So stop trying to tell Israel what to do here. Let the people here solve it on their own.
(And don't even think about saying we can't get to something! Both of Israel's peace agreement with Arab states, and the Oslo agreement, started by Israelis and Palestinians talking, not because of international pressure!)

[end rant]

Someone here said people know more about the middle-east conflict than about conflicts anywhere else.
That's true, but the information they recieve is:
1) Never, never, never accurate
2) biased (more to the Paletinian side mostly)
3) In lack of many many details.
I believe the only people who can understand the conflict the best are those who live here in the area, or those of us who listen to several news sources, and research, instead of taking everything the reporter says like he's god.

A common mistake, for examle, is that too many people think the Israelis want this land because 'god promised it to them'.
News flash people - More than 80% of the Israelis are secular! And guess what, there are less than 10 out of 120 seats in the Israeli parliament that represent religious parties!
Not many know this, but there are also 4 Arab muslim parliament members in Israel! Now who says we oppress muslims?
While almost all Palestinians are religious. Meaning, the religious excuse is not used by the Israelis, but it seems that's what everyone thinks...

So cut the crap, let people in the area talk about stuff happening in their area, or at least do some research before actually posting anything.
I hate seeing people just throwing pieces of info to the air, that I've never heard of. You don't see Israelis telling China what to do with Tiwan, right? You don't see Israelis telling Russia what to do with Chechnya right? So stop trying to tell Israel what to do here. Let the people here solve it on their own.
(And don't even think about saying we can't get to something! Both of Israel's peace agreement with Arab states, and the Oslo agreement, started by Israelis and Palestinians talking, not because of international pressure!)

[end rant]So what efforts does the Sharon government (and all governments since Netanjahu) undertake to promote possibilities for peace? I have not seen anything lately. Instead I see the rest of Palestine being cooped up inside a concrete wall.

as for me i think taiwan and chechenya should have their independence and as for the person that said africans just formed villages and killed themselves, you are just another racist with the picture of hitler in his room. Isreal isjust another rogue state like North korea, they beat up and muslims, when they are worse than muslims. jews complained in the middle ages they could not own land, now they don't want palestine to share jerusalem with them, and tell me why palestine shouldn't fight, the US give isreals weapons for free and you want to Iran not to make nuclear weapon, hell no iran can make as many as they want to, if isreal continues to bomb syria,iran,jordan. isreal doesn't want a palestinian state since they don't want palenstine to have U.N protection and have a bother. all this war about land was caused by British,French,Spanish,Portuguese thieves who wanted to steal the properties of the Asians,Cubans and native americans. And how are we sure the so called matriachs were buried there, mohammed may be buried their also , just share the damn jerusalem ingrate jews, that is all the world would be better if religion doesn't have to be in politics and where is the roadmark to peace,all a conspiracy by the U.s and Isreal to kill more arab. this is neocolonialism and it must be stopped, i don't hate jews but they need to shut up and remember moses is in the Koran too,islam,christianity,judaism all have something in common. we all believe in god

Hmm, this must have started with Tiglath-pileser III and forced re-settlement throughout his empire... the dispersement of the 12 tribes. You'd go back home, and the neighborhood is all different... bummer. And, then they go and change the details of "the" faith whilst you're away... blasphemers! Thousands of years ago, it was grain. Now it's oil. Peaceful solution? Without casualties? We only need wait another decade or so, and the faithful will anihilate each other atomically.

don't tell me jews would lower prices, weren't they know to hoard money and be stingy money lender, when they couldn't own land in Europe. all i am asking for is equality. if arab were jews we won't be talking about this isreal and palestine would be sharing the land

we all believe in god

No we don't.

Nobody likes reading my posts do they?

So what efforts does the Sharon government (and all governments since Netanjahu) undertake to promote possibilities for peace? I have not seen anything lately. Instead I see the rest of Palestine being cooped up inside a concrete wall.

Yes condemn Israel for their building of the wall to protect themselves from terrorism, and while we're at it let's condemnt USA, China, Mexico, South Africa, Uganda, Russia, Brazil, Ireland etc...etc. Pretty much every country in the world has a wall to protect themselves either from mass immigration from neighbouring countries or like Israel to protect them from terrorists...not Militants..not Freedom Fighters...Terrorists.

as for me i think taiwan and chechenya should have their independence

They will get their independence if they can fight for it only..nagging won't do a thing. Terrorism especially won't help Chechnya do it.

and as for the person that said africans just formed villages and killed themselves, you are just another racist with the picture of hitler in his room.

First off that was me. Second off History proves i am right. Third off I'm jewish... but i do like up to Hitler for inspiration. I hate him yet i respsect him..but that's another story. 4th off, your just another uneducated African...

Isreal isjust another rogue state like North korea, they beat up and muslims, when they are worse than muslims.

NK beats up muslims? that's a first. Second off to be considered a rogue state you generally have to not be part of the UN.

jews complained in the middle ages they could not own land, now they don't want palestine to share jerusalem with them

Jew's could own land... just some area's didn't except jew's in their lands. But otherwise they were allowed their own land. And second off Israel ASKED if they could build their temple UNDERNEATH the MOSQUE but instead they Arabs said no and started burning and pillaging our holy sites.

and tell me why palestine shouldn't fight, the US give isreals weapons for free

Palestine can fight...although generally if you want to achieve independence you attack the Military not Civilians..that just show's your out there to kill not to acheive Independence.

and you want to Iran not to make nuclear weapon, hell no iran can make as many as they want to if isreal continues to bomb syria,iran,jordan.

If there's one thing we don't need it is more countries with Nuclear Weapons...especially one's that would actually use them just for kicks. And when did they start bombing Syria, Iran and Jordan?

isreal doesn't want a palestinian state since they don't want palenstine to have U.N protection and have a bother.

Nobody cares for a "Palestinian State" It's just an excuse to be 1 stop closer to kicking Israel off it's land. They martyr their own children to make the Israeli's look bad.

all this war about land was caused by British,French,Spanish,Portuguese thieves who wanted to steal the properties of the Asians,Cubans and native americans.

I don't see what the Spanish and Portuguese have to do with the Mid East...It was Britain and French who controlled those lands... And as for the Asians, Cubans and Natives...Tough Luck they should've done a better job defending their land and being better at Diplomacy..well what little Diplomacy they could've done with the Europeans.

And how are we sure the so called matriachs were buried there, mohammed may be buried their also

How are we sure..ummmm oh yeah i know because it's recorded in the Bible that they were. Mohammed was buried? i thought he ascended to heaven. Any other stupid comments? Oh wait yes there are more sorry..

just share the damn jerusalem ingrate jews, that is all the world would be better if religion doesn't have to be in politics and where is the roadmark to peace,all a conspiracy by the U.s and Isreal to kill more arab.

Forget sharing...it is our land, we conquered it under a Defense War so it is legally ours. and Religion will always be in politics as long as we are still divided under differente religions and idealism.

this is neocolonialism and it must be stopped, i don't hate jews but they need to shut up and remember moses is in the Koran too,islam,christianity,judaism all have something in common. we all believe in god.

First off, when did it become illegal to colonize our own own territories and lands...

Second off, The god in Christianity, Islam and Judiasm are all different...they all have different personalities. You make them sound as one just because they're based off the same guy. If i show you an article on George W. Bush who makes peace with everyone, your going to think it's someone else aren;t you?

don't tell me jews would lower prices, weren't they know to hoard money and be stingy money lender, when they couldn't own land in Europe. all i am asking for is equality. if arab were jews we won't be talking about this isreal and palestine would be sharing the land.

Ooooooh yeah, you are so not racist at all. :rolleyes:

Anyways... THEY COULD OWN LAND! THEY COULD OWN LAND! THEY COULD OWN LAND! And every peasant was stingy back then... not just the Jew's they had to be because it was the only they could survive.

And if Arab were jews...we wouldnt even talking about Palestine since the Arabs would be intelligent to know that it is a madeup country with no set borders.

as for me i think taiwan and chechenya should have their independence and as for the person that said africans just formed villages and killed themselves, you are just another racist with the picture of hitler in his room. Isreal isjust another rogue state like North korea, they beat up and muslims, when they are worse than muslims. jews complained in the middle ages they could not own land, now they don't want palestine to share jerusalem with them, and tell me why palestine shouldn't fight, the US give isreals weapons for free and you want to Iran not to make nuclear weapon, hell no iran can make as many as they want to, if isreal continues to bomb syria,iran,jordan. isreal doesn't want a palestinian state since they don't want palenstine to have U.N protection and have a bother. all this war about land was caused by British,French,Spanish,Portuguese thieves who wanted to steal the properties of the Asians,Cubans and native americans. And how are we sure the so called matriachs were buried there, mohammed may be buried their also , just share the damn jerusalem ingrate jews, that is all the world would be better if religion doesn't have to be in politics and where is the roadmark to peace,all a conspiracy by the U.s and Isreal to kill more arab. this is neocolonialism and it must be stopped, i don't hate jews but they need to shut up and remember moses is in the Koran too,islam,christianity,judaism all have something in common. we all believe in god

you've been watching too much TV. Don't tell me Israel doesn't let Palestinians to go to Jerusalem!
They acutally do, but Paletstinians start throwing stones during religious practices.

i don't hate jews
Was that a typo? Because judging by your posts i'd beg to differ:)

Was that a typo? Because judging by your posts i'd beg to differ

Of course he doesnt hate Jews...he despises them, and wishes the Pox on them. :P

if it is your damn territory i would organize the mexicans to take over california,texas and new mexico, how would the u.s fell compare that you ingrate, just be satisfied, jews should be happy and not disturb muslims christians,jews,muslims must live in harmony and peace.

I totally agree, if Mexico can take over those parts then let them... But alas at the moment they can't. While they're at it they might as well conquer the World...if they can conquer even one territory through War means..then they are the new World SuperPower who everyone has to listen to no matter what.

As for you that said i am just an uneducated african, you are probably the son of the guy that killed martin luther king. of all that has been to promote equality among races, whites still hate blacks, 90% of whites are members of the KuKluxKlan. and how many whites to go school yu racist. you keep on insulting africans and don't think of your bluecollar self on unemployment check. africa is improving except for some stagnant countries, in 20years this would be evident, i have hope for my continent if isreal don't immigrate there like they are doing to palestine

As for you that said i am just an uneducated african, you are probably the son of the guy that killed martin luther king. of all that has been to promote equality among races, whites still hate blacks, 90% of whites are members of the KuKluxKlan. and how many whites to go school yu racist. you keep on insulting africans and don't think of your bluecollar self on unemployment check. africa is improving except for some stagnant countries, in 20years this would be evident, i have hope for my continent if isreal don't immigrate there like they are doing to palestine


If you admit your "uneducated", then why are you posting all this!!

i have hope for my continent if isreal don't immigrate there like they are doing to palestine

As for you that said i am just an uneducated african, you are probably the son of the guy that killed martin luther king.

I am not the son of the guy who killed MLK...i in some aspects agreed with his logic. If USA didnt want the Africans they should've deported them... But they didn't so they're stuck with them for now. Second off you are the typical Uneducated African by the contents of your posts...either that or your a 10 year old that has no idea what's going on in the world.

of all that has been to promote equality among races, whites still hate blacks, 90% of whites are members of the KuKluxKlan.

90% of whites in KKK.... Where the **** do you live?! Arkansas?!

and how many whites to go school yu racist.

How many Whites go to school? Ummm what type? Whites in general? or Just Western World Whites?

you keep on insulting africans and don't think of your bluecollar self on unemployment check.

African really hasn;t proved itself to be a normal country yet..except with some minor civilization in South Africa...and BTW i don't work..i go to college.

africa is improving except for some stagnant countries, in 20years this would be evident.

Africa improving eh? *looks at Sudan, Nigeria, Egypt, Libya, and pretty much the whole continent* Errr....if by 20 years you mean 20 centuries..then maybe we got something.

i have hope for my continent if isreal don't immigrate there like they are doing to palestine.

Israeli's immigrating to Africa? well maybe to SA.... but that's about it. Otherwise Israel controls the land you people like to call "Palestine" so they can do whatever they want with the inhabitants as they please.



Anyways i g2g i'll probably be back later tonight...try not to get all mad thinking of a new to Insult a country you know nothing of, since i;m doing a pretty good job of defending your stupidity and hatred of it.


On another note.. i'm not racist to Africa...i think they tend to be Uneducated...but i don't hate them.

i attend the University of Illinois at chicago and it is very painful for a ordinary white to insult a whole race because it is jealous, africa would develop in about 20 yrs whether you like it or not

First off, when did it become illegal to colonize our own own territories and lands...On what would you ground the claim that this is YOUR land? God? Rediculous!
Second off, The god in Christianity, Islam and Judiasm are all different...they all have different personalities. No. The deity worshipped by those groups is only one.

How about we turn both nations into a giant parking lot. Thats right, nuke the bastards.

How about we turn both nations into a giant parking lot. Thats right, nuke the bastards.
What a first post! Keep it up:):headbang:
The phrase "if you have nothing useful to say then don't say anything" comes to mind:)

On what would you ground the claim that this is YOUR land? God? Rediculous!

No i base it on the fact, we own the land...By once again your own logic, should we say that American belongs to the Europeans because the church told them God said it's their land?

No. The deity worshipped by those groups is only one.

They think it's the same god...but they treat G-d differently.

In Hinduism, Brahma created the world, is he the same god that Judiasm, Christianity and Islam is also talking about?

No i base it on the fact, we own the land...By once again your own logic, should we say that American belongs to the Europeans because the church told them God said it's their land?But you do not rightfully own the land. You grabbed it.
They think it's the same god...but they treat G-d differently.Do they? I think the differences are marginal. And the behavior of worshippers towards the respective others have been more or less the same throughout history.
In Hinduism, Brahma created the world, is he the same god that Judiasm, Christianity and Islam is also talking about?What are you talking about? Hinduism has nothing to do with El or Yah.

But you do not rightfully own the land. You grabbed it.
.

Same thing

Here is the resolution Isreal gives back the west bank and gaza to palestine, the isrealies in those territtories would pay taxes to the palestine government, isreal shares jerusalem with that arabs. a U.N checkpost is formed between jerusalem barring illegal movement between both sides

Muslim,Jew,Hindu,Buddha,all believe there is one god don't hate other religions tolerate them, from the beginning these crisis was caused by the crusades over jerusalem, the land was shared before, go back to the old ways please and forgot the U.S peace plan

Same thingNo, grabbing land makes you a thief. And grabbing land and justifying it by the will of some imaginative deity makes you an *******.

let's accept this the U.S is fueling the violence because of Oil, for all these help isreal is getting ,it would soon be invaded by U.s companies who would make life hell for others

Isreal has pick on everybody in the Arab world,today it is Iran, Syria, next it is Libya and Egypt and what is the U.N doing nothing
the U.n is just a U.S run organization with help from britain and France, that is why i want my country of origin (nigeria) to pull out before we are colonized again by the old dirty british merchants who stole our art and craft and display in the museum as part of the heritage they don't have.

Isreal has pick on everybody in the Arab world,today it is Iran, Syria, next it is Libya and Egypt and what is the U.N doing nothing
the U.n is just a U.S run organization with help from britain and France, that is why i want my country of origin (nigeria) to pull out before we are colonized again by the old dirty british merchants who stole our art and craft and display in the museum as part of the heritage they don't have.
*must... not... laugh AAHAHHHHAHHAAHHAHHAA*
So by your logic ISRAEL has picked a fight with EGYPT, SYRIA, LEBANON, IRAQ, IRAN, JORDAN, SAUDI ARABIA. Sorry for possibly being a bit slow right now but what would Israel get out of that? Check your facts and make sure you haven't got them in the wrong order!

Gotta love Anti-Israeli people... they are always so ignorant of the knowledge and history...

But you do not rightfully own the land. You grabbed it.

And Americans grabbed Indian land and Mexican land...Russia grabbed Chechnya and Georgia... Spain grabbed Basque country....Prussia i believed was annexed by everybody following WW1. Oh yeah, Jordan Grabbed what you call the West Bank and Egypt took Gaza Strip...oh wait wasn't that "Palestinian" land? some neighbours they are....

And there are plenty more.

Do they? I think the differences are marginal. And the behavior of worshippers towards the respective others have been more or less the same throughout history.

You mean fighting for their idealism...sorta like what your doing...

What are you talking about? Hinduism has nothing to do with El or Yah.

Yet Islam and Christianity has to do with Judiasm? i hardly doubt it...otherwise there wouldn't be any controversy...

Here is the resolution Isreal gives back the west bank and gaza to palestine, the isrealies in those territtories would pay taxes to the palestine government, isreal shares jerusalem with that arabs. a U.N checkpost is formed between jerusalem barring illegal movement between both sides

Ummm...no, so long as Israel maintains its muscles on IT'S TERRITORIES, it is theirs to do with as they please. I don't see where you think that everybody has to listen to your stupid logic.

Muslim,Jew,Hindu,Buddha,all believe there is one god don't hate other religions tolerate them, from the beginning these crisis was caused by the crusades over jerusalem, the land was shared before, go back to the old ways please and forgot the U.S peace plan

Hey we agree on something! Let's forget the peace plan, that way Israel get's to keep IT'S lands..undisturbed.

No, grabbing land makes you a thief. And grabbing land and justifying it by the will of some imaginative deity makes you an *******.

Grabbing land makes you a thief...Buying it and winning it through War makes it legally yours. And your just saying you don't believe in G-d so that way you can do anything you want. BTW why should we give it back? As and Athiest, shouldn't you not care and hope we kill ourselves in the process? Or is that a bonus to your sick Liberalism?

let's accept this the U.S is fueling the violence because of Oil, for all these help isreal is getting ,it would soon be invaded by U.s companies who would make life hell for others

1. If War is fueled by something as linear as Oil...then any idiot off the street could be President. There is always more then what appears in life....

2. US Companies invading Israel? that just doesnt make sense...

Isreal has pick on everybody in the Arab world,today it is Iran, Syria, next it is Libya and Egypt and what is the U.N doing nothing

Pick on them?! Justify this comment before i hunt you down and slap you silly for stupidity.

the U.n is just a U.S run organization with help from britain and France, that is why i want my country of origin (nigeria) to pull out before we are colonized again by the old dirty british merchants who stole our art and craft and display in the museum as part of the heritage they don't have.

Nigeria has a heritage? Wow what do you know...next thing you know Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia...and pretty much all muslim's countries and Africa's borders weren't set by the Europeans. Oh wait they were.... So what is Nigeria? where does Nigeria start and end anyways?

And dont pull a map off the internet...that would just make you look really stupid...


And for a person that goes to University, you sure have Lots of typo's and Ignorance on how stuff works in general... Then again you could be some ignorant 10 year old AOL user that tries to debate to people older then him to see if anyone is stupider then himself.

.... Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia...and pretty much all muslim's countries and Africa's....And Israel...

Your absolutely right and wrong at the same time...

Your right in the fact that Europeans gave them the land with borders....

But wrong in the fact that the land that was given to them was technically Ancient Israel..but in time Israel will probably try and conquer all it's all lands back.

But at least someone here has some intelligence. :)

Despite the fact you tried (i think) to use my comment against me, at least you more or less checked the facts.

MuhOre: Your ideas are frankly fascist, and it is scary that you don't realize that. Morality does have its purpose in life, although not in foreign policy most of the time, but after conquests have been made and enemies have been defeated, you always have to ask youself, do you want to turn into your enemy? If invasion automatically comferred legitimacy, then I guess every single invading power throughout history ought to have been allowed to keep its territory, esp. the Soviet Union. But no, the US fought Soviet territorial ambitions, not just because we wanted to defeat our enemy, but because we felt that people everywhere deserve to have a choice as to who governs them (although admittedly we have not applied this concept universally, nor do I feel that we should). Your immoral stance on the rights of the conqueror are giving the rest of us who support Israel for moral reasons a bad name...

Basuyo: You say you are from the University of Chicago? Frankly I don't believe you, but that's not really an issue, is it? Read up a bit on the Middle East and history in general, then come back and post.

1. I do know i'm a facist... and i'm happy for it.

2. There are plenty of other reasons to support Israel's claims...but people love to shoot them down with their stupidity. This i go with the one Reason to support Israel which they cannot shoot down...no matter how hard they try. Normally this would end a conversation, but Anti-Israeli's tend to be retarded..at least all the ones i've met so far.

I never said i attended university of chicago, i said i was a freshmen at Univeristy of Illinois chicago, i have everything to prove, i am a mechanical engineering major, so you can't dispute that. the thing even arabs instigated violence against isreal in the 1950's and 60's. but there is one thing if the land is given back to the palestinians, the iranians wouldn't think of enriching uranium, the Arab leauge wouldn't be bothered with isreal, Hamas would be disbanded, and in palestine there is a revolution against corrupt and there president who would soon hand over some of the PLO's power, Isreal should approve a 1 year cease fire, let the palestinian security system come back to life and let Arabs and Jews discuss without the United States who are new to these territories. Jews and muslims must live together, stop killing yourselfs, for the sake of your children you can't preach tolerance with violence at your backdoor, there needs to be world peace

So what efforts does the Sharon government (and all governments since Netanjahu) undertake to promote possibilities for peace? I have not seen anything lately. Instead I see the rest of Palestine being cooped up inside a concrete wall.

You should read more. There was a government between Netanyahu and Sharon. It's called the Barak government. There was a thing called Camp David II, also the Taba negotiations and the Clinton Proposals.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php

The meetings were difficult and almost ended prematurely, but President Clinton kept the parties at the negotiating table. The final status issues were the most difficult to resolve: Jerusalem, security, borders and refugees. Sessions lasted late into the nights. Under intense pressure from President Clinton, in an effort to reach a final agreement, and with promises of American support and security guarantees, Prime Minister Barak offered the most substantial concessions and far reaching proposals, going beyond all the long-standing Israeli "red lines", especially as regards Jerusalem. The US team called Barak "courageous" for these offers. When these terms were later revealed in Israel, people were stunned at the extent of the concessions Barak offered and it is unclear whether the Israeli public were prepared to support the deal. However they were never given the opportunity to endorse or reject the proposals; Arafat rejected them out of hand.

The details were not disclosed formally, but according to media reports Barak's offer included:

- Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
- The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal
- The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control
- Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control
- Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City
- "Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf22.html#w

According to U.S. peace negotiator Dennis Ross, Israel offered to create a Palestinian state that was contiguous, and not a series of cantons. Even in the case of the Gaza Strip, which must be physically separate from the West Bank unless Israel were to be cut into non-contiguous pieces, a solution was devised whereby an overland highway would connect the two parts of the Palestinian state without any Israeli checkpoints or interference.

The proposal also addressed the refugee issue, guaranteeing them the right of return to the Palestinian state and reparations from a $30 billion international fund that would be collected to compensate them.

Israel also agreed to give the Palestinians access to water desalinated in its territory.

Arafat was asked to agree to Israeli sovereignty over the parts of the Western Wall religiously significant to Jews (i.e., not the entire Temple Mount), and three early warning stations in the Jordan valley, which Israel would withdraw from after six years. Most important, however, Arafat was expected to agree that the conflict was over at the end of the negotiations. This was the true deal breaker. Arafat was not willing to end the conflict. "For him to end the conflict is to end himself," said Ross.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/clinton_plan.html

if the land is given back to the palestinians, the iranians would think of enriching uranium, the Arab leauge wouldn't be bothered with isreal, Hamas would be disbanded, and in palestine there is a revolution against corrupt and there president who would soon hand over some of the PLO's power, Isreal should approve a 1 year cease fire, let the palestinian security system come back to life and let Arabs and Jews discuss without the United States who are new to these territories. Jews and muslims must live together, stop killing yourselfs, for the sake of your children you can't preach tolerance with violence at your backdoor, there needs to be world peace

Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas believes in a Palestinian state based on Mandate Palestine. There is no room for Israel in Hamas' vision.

Your claim that Hamas would be "disbanded" if Israel gave back the territories is both absurd and naive.

I am not asking for the total disbandment of hamas, am just for the disbandment of their millitary wing. hamas should be a politcial organization not radical, they should be more of martin luther king, who preached non-violence and not Malcom X who preached radicalism. there won't be peach with continous sucide bombing. palestine would get support like luther got over Malcom X.

I am not asking for the total disbandment of hamas, am just for the disbandment of their millitary wing. hamas should be a politcial organization not radical, they should be more of martin luther king, who preached non-violence and not Malcom X who preached radicalism. there won't be peach with continous sucide bombing. palestine would get support like luther got over Malcom X.

Once again, you seem to be clueless as to the actual ideology and organization of Hamas. The military wing is central to who Hamas is, as an movement. There is little possibility they would willingly consent to disbanding it. It would only be possible through armed coercion, which the PA at this point is both unwilling and unable to do.

that is why the palestinians need U.N and Arab League's help, the hamas millitary wing should be redeployed as part of the Palestinian security forces, they should be trained by egypt,libya, and saudi arabia,. ideaology on both sides need to be changed, the koran and the bible are alike, solomon in the koran would be another name, david may be on the koran, so why is there fighting like this. As i have said look at the U.S and Canada and learn from them.

Are you in support of the millitary wing of hamas? should they be proposing for a palestinian parliament or soverign council at least palenstine should be an autonomous region like Taiwan

You should read more. There was a government between Netanyahu and Sharon. It's called the Barak government. There was a thing called Camp David II, also the Taba negotiations and the Clinton Proposals.And? Has the Palestinians' situation changed in any way? Except that they are now put inside a wall? Has the arbitrary destruction of Palestinian houses stopped? Have the Jewish settlers been removed from the West Bank or Gaza? Has any land been returned to Palestinians that is of any agricultural value? Have the Palestinian refugees in Egypt and Jordan been allowed back to their land?
Since Netanjahu took office every time I have seen an Interview with an Israeli prime minister and promises were made, I was sure that an excuse would be found not to implement any of those promises, and that is exactly what happened. What about the promises made by Sharon? Is he pulling Israelis out of Gaza? I've seen or heard nothing yet.

I am checking the links though. Following the first one I have already found numerous errors, especially regarding Egyptian chronology. (e.g. Moses served the king of Egypt named Khenephêres (as reported by Josephus quoting some Manetho text), i.e. Sobekhotep IV Kaneferre of the 13th Dynasty who ruled from around 1529 to 1508)

And? Has the Palestinians' situation changed in any way? Except that they are now put inside a wall? Has the arbitrary destruction of Palestinian houses stopped? Have the Jewish settlers been removed from the West Bank or Gaza? Has any land been returned to Palestinians that is of any agricultural value? Have the Palestinian refugees in Egypt and Jordan been allowed back to their land?
Since Netanjahu took office every time I have seen an Interview with an Israeli prime minister and promises were made, I was sure that an excuse would be found not to implement any of those promises, and that is exactly what happened. What about the promises made by Sharon? Is he pulling Israelis out of Gaza? I've seen or heard nothing yet.
I agree with you. Their lives haven't changed. You know why, because they said no to the treaty. The palestinians not the Israelis. Did you know that we offered 97% of the territories back in exchange for peace. Hamas launched their most destructive attacks yet. In one fortnight tens of people were killed. The cowardly Palestinian leader didn't dare sign the treaty because of the intimidation!

I agree with you. Their lives haven't changed. You know why, because they said no to the treaty. The palestinians not the Israelis. Did you know that we offered 97% of the territories back in exchange for peace. Hamas launched their most destructive attacks yet. In one fortnight tens of people were killed. The cowardly Palestinian leader didn't dare sign the treaty because of the intimidation!You may well know that there is no trust on the Palestinian side in offers made by Israel since they have already been disappointed so many times. I cannot now remeber details but I can remember that everytime Israel made an offer they connected it with some condition that would clearly have been inacceptable on the other side. I have never took any of those offers as serious. The day Netanjahu became PM the peace process has been dead, and it is that way ever since. And for the current situation I do not see how there could possibly any agreements. Since the Palestinians just have no means to do anything, and while Arafat (who I consider to be ineffective and corrupt) is in office, it is for the Israelis to make the first (real!) step.
Sharon has said he wanted to pull all Israelis out of Gaza? I predict that he will not. Let's wait and see.

your not until armed combatants quit hiding behind the unarmed civlians which is what the terriorist from palistien are doing and i don't understand it isriel is not the country that stole the palistein land jordon did thatso the question is how do you stop a group of people from attacking a country that did not even steal there land . awser i don't think you can now if you truelly want a real end to it with out a unrealist paramiter as nobody get killed the awser is simple every body leave isrial to take care of it the best why they see fit and supple them how ever many buldozers they need to do it

And? Has the Palestinians' situation changed in any way?

1. The fact that their situation may not have improved is irrelevant in reference to your (false) contention that no government since Netanyahu has done anything to promote peace. I would call the various attempts by the Barak government, particularly Camp David II, the Taba Talks, and most notably the Clinton Proposals, concrete examples of promoting peace. Are you going to retract your statement?

2. Merely because a government attempts to PROMOTE peace does not ensure that it will succeed. Once again, I notice you refuse to assign any responsibility for the hellhole that is presently the Palestinian Territories to Yasser Arafat. Had he agreed to the Clinton Proposals, there would already be an interim Palestinian state. Instead, he refused and started the Intifada, leading to the deaths and maiming of thousands of Palestinians. What a great leader.

Except that they are now put inside a wall? Has the arbitrary destruction of Palestinian houses stopped? Have the Jewish settlers been removed from the West Bank or Gaza? Has any land been returned to Palestinians that is of any agricultural value? Have the Palestinian refugees in Egypt and Jordan been allowed back to their land?

Have the Palestinians agreed to any peace treaty? :rolleyes: I must have missed that.

Since Netanjahu took office every time I have seen an Interview with an Israeli prime minister and promises were made, I was sure that an excuse would be found not to implement any of those promises, and that is exactly what happened. What about the promises made by Sharon? Is he pulling Israelis out of Gaza? I've seen or heard nothing yet.

Again, you should read more. Check out Ha'aretz. At present, most attention seems to be on creating infastructure to remove settlers (and complete the fence). But there does seem to be indications that he intends on going through with it. Either way, if he does or doesn't, the effects will be tremendous, alienating a significant portion of the Israeli population. I predict that no matter what Sharon does, he will not be re-elected. The big issue is that about 70% of Israelis have stated they are for disengagement, making me think that if Sharon doesn't implement the plan, they will elect someone who will.

I am checking the links though. Following the first one I have already found numerous errors, especially regarding Egyptian chronology. (e.g. Moses served the king of Egypt named Khenephêres (as reported by Josephus quoting some Manetho text), i.e. Sobekhotep IV Kaneferre of the 13th Dynasty who ruled from around 1529 to 1508)

Right, clearly THAT'S the part of the site you should be checking. Not the parts relevant to what we were actually talking about. Heaven fordbid.

You may well know that there is no trust on the Palestinian side in offers made by Israel since they have already been disappointed so many times.

Right, because the Palestinians have totally lived up to their obligations. I forgot. I'm surprised that the Palestinians can even pretend to trust their OWN leaders, using that same rubric.

I cannot now remeber details but I can remember that everytime Israel made an offer they connected it with some condition that would clearly have been inacceptable on the other side.

When you can remember details, post them. Until then, this is a useless piece of rumor.

I have never took any of those offers as serious.

And what you think matters because...?

The day Netanjahu became PM the peace process has been dead, and it is that way ever since.

Except, of course, for that pesky Barak government. But screw that, right. The most generous offer to the Palestinians since the 1947 UN plan, etc... Not important.

And for the current situation I do not see how there could possibly any agreements. Since the Palestinians just have no means to do anything, and while Arafat (who I consider to be ineffective and corrupt) is in office, it is for the Israelis to make the first (real!) step.
Sharon has said he wanted to pull all Israelis out of Gaza? I predict that he will not. Let's wait and see.

Indeed.

What's that about the Barak government? There have been made offers indeed, but were they ever considered to be implemented? What has Barak REALLY done instead of producing paper work? Concrete examples of promoting peace? Show me!
The big issue is that about 70% of Israelis have stated they are for disengagement, making me think that if Sharon doesn't implement the plan, they will elect someone who will.So where have those 70% been in the last 20 years? And how come that Sharon got elected in the first place, when 70% of Israelis are not for what he has always stood for?

BTW what obligations do the Palestinians have except for living in the land as they have been for 1400 years? They have no duty to support the Jews, after all helping the Jews in the first half of the 20th century has not worked out for them.

What's that about the Barak government? There have been made offers indeed, but were they ever considered to be implemented? What has Barak REALLY done instead of producing paper work? Concrete examples of promoting peace? Show me!
So where have those 70% been in the last 20 years? And how come that Sharon got elected in the first place, when 70% of Israelis are not for what he has always stood for?

Peace offers will always remains "paper work" until both sides agree to abide by them. The Israelis did, the Palestinians didn't. If you want to know why it is only a piece of paper, not an established reality, take it up with them.

You completely stereotype Sharon as anti-Palestinian. What you fail to realize, or even acknowledge, is that *Sharon* is the one who is trying to move forward on the Gaza withdrawal, and that he is doing so against the protests of a large portion of his own party and coalition government. But no, to you the head of Israel has to be a bad man who wants to oppress the poor Palestinian. The leaders of a country are, first and foremost, patriots. They do what they believe is best for their country. Their ideologies help shape what they believe is best, but the fact that Sharon is pursuing this plan demostrates that he realizes how important it is to solve this problem as soon as possible.

BTW what obligations do the Palestinians have except for living in the land as they have been for 1400 years? They have no duty to support the Jews, after all helping the Jews in the first half of the 20th century has not worked out for them.

I don't know what this BS is supposed to mean. No one is asking the Palestinians to support the Israelis. Get it through your head, there is a portion of that region that rightfully belongs to Israel, so no one is asking for the Palestinians to support them beyond one simple idea: *recognize that they have a right to exist as a state*. Palestinians have a claim to the land according to the concept of popular sovereignty, but they do not have a claim to ALL of the land. These either-or statements are beginning to tire me. THere can be both an Israel and a Palestinian state, the one does not contradict the other.

What's that about the Barak government? There have been made offers indeed, but were they ever considered to be implemented?

An offer must be accepted in order for it to be implemented.

What has Barak REALLY done instead of producing paper work? Concrete examples of promoting peace? Show me!

See above. Many offers. All rejected.

So where have those 70% been in the last 20 years? And how come that Sharon got elected in the first place, when 70% of Israelis are not for what he has always stood for?

I said 70% support disengagement, which only recently came onto the political radar in the last elections (when Amram Mitzna ran for PM on the disengagement idea and lost- as one analyst put it, the Israelis "wanted Sharon to implement Mitzna's plan"). Although it should be noted that every poll taken in the past decade-plus has indicated a clear majority of Israelis support negotiating for peace- but they want to know that these negotiations will BRING peace. The Oslo accords, and their deterioration, have not increased confidence in their Palestinian "partners".

BTW what obligations do the Palestinians have except for living in the land as they have been for 1400 years?

If one makes an agreement, both parties have an obligation to said agreement. The Oslo accords were an agreement, which both sides regretfully failed to live up to- the Palestinians in particular.

If the Palestinians say they want their own state, and are willing to achieve this through diplomacy, they DO INDEED have obligations. To say otherwise is to excuse Palestinian leaders of any responsibility over their people's actions- and in effect nullifies any point in negotiating with them in the first place.

They have no duty to support the Jews

They have a duty to live up to agreements they sign. To do otherwise makes them liars, and insults not only the people they are making agreements with, but also the office they hold and the people who supposedly elected them to act responsibly.

after all helping the Jews in the first half of the 20th century has not worked out for them.

I must have missed when that happened. Feel free to refresh my memory.

A link to a very disturbing ad that ran in the New York Times today:

http://ajc.org/upload/pdf/Ad_Antisemitism_09_22_2004.pdf

And most people generally don't tend to know all that much about the Middle-East to begin with.

Which suggests some very frightening implications for their knowledge of the rest of the world.

true they can only know what they are told by media, peers, etc..

As for you that said i am just an uneducated african, you are probably the son of the guy that killed martin luther king. of all that has been to promote equality among races, whites still hate blacks, 90% of whites are members of the KuKluxKlan. and how many whites to go school yu racist. you keep on insulting africans and don't think of your bluecollar self on unemployment check. africa is improving except for some stagnant countries, in 20years this would be evident, i have hope for my continent if isreal don't immigrate there like they are doing to palestine

90% of whites are part of the KKK.
fool

Isreal has pick on everybody in the Arab world,today it is Iran, Syria, next it is Libya and Egypt and what is the U.N doing nothing
the U.n is just a U.S run organization with help from britain and France, that is why i want my country of origin (nigeria) to pull out before we are colonized again by the old dirty british merchants who stole our art and craft and display in the museum as part of the heritage they don't have.

hahahaha
british don't have a heritage? I take it then that you previous post about you being uneducated must be true.

I never said i attended university of chicago, i said i was a freshmen at Univeristy of Illinois chicago, i have everything to prove, i am a mechanical engineering major, so you can't dispute that. the thing even arabs instigated violence against isreal in the 1950's and 60's. but there is one thing if the land is given back to the palestinians, the iranians wouldn't think of enriching uranium, the Arab leauge wouldn't be bothered with isreal, Hamas would be disbanded, and in palestine there is a revolution against corrupt and there president who would soon hand over some of the PLO's power, Isreal should approve a 1 year cease fire, let the palestinian security system come back to life and let Arabs and Jews discuss without the United States who are new to these territories. Jews and muslims must live together, stop killing yourselfs, for the sake of your children you can't preach tolerance with violence at your backdoor, there needs to be world peace

amen to that

sharon is just a light headed corrupt president. he is scared by every move of his damn party. at least the last prime minister had a stand. today he talks with the palenstinian, tommorrow he wants to expel Arafat. Sharon and Arafat must leave power or die. Both are just old fools and the hamas must disband its millitary wing and become a non-violent political organization for them to recieve support from the U.N

what happened to ceasefire? and who violated it?
we need answer and we need a new secretary General? Kofi Annan is just not tough enough. look at sudan,iraq,Rwanda,Bosnia,macedonia,the middleeast, North Korea, the U.N has done nothing about it