NationStates Jolt Archive

Post a gun control thread and it quickly spirals out of control to 50+ pages...

I would like an answer to a question my wife asked of me, from people who are anti-guns, or anti-gun ownership:

If someone breaks into a woman's home, with the sole intent of rape, not robbery, does she have the right to defend herself (by any means necessary) or is she supposed to just lie down and accept her fate (as to not escalate the situation)?

Can someone give me a reasonable answer to that one?

No, she should lay back and try to enjoy it.

Of course she should defend herself. Unfortunately if the anti-gunners have their way she will almost certainly be defenseless. I have only met about four women who would have a chance in a fight against the average man. Two were martial arts instructors. two were my fellow martial arts students. All were in excellent condition, well trained, and three were larger than the average woman. The fourt was a tough indonesian woman named Ibu Rita Suwanda who had been training since her childhood.

There are plenty of other ways to defend yourself other then shooting a person

There are plenty of other ways to defend yourself other then shooting a person
How would a 5'4" 130 lb woman would defend herself vs a 5'11" 190 lb armed man?
And I didnt say shooting a person.. I asked if she had the right to defend herself.

you don´t need a gun to defend you, what about things like tack whuon do (don´t know how to write this) or knife or irritaton gas

Hmmm...a toughie.

If it were MY wife, and she owned a gun, I would say YES she is justified in turning his testicles into ground beef.

How would a 5'4" 130 lb woman would defend herself vs a 5'11" 190 lb armed man?
And I didnt say shooting a person.. I asked if she had the right to defend herself.
What would an equally big man do vs that armed attacker?

EDIT: I was not the first to mention guns

you don´t need a gun to defend you, what about things like tack whuon do (don´t know how to write this) or knife or irritaton gas
Tae Kwon do sucks for realistic defense. Knives aren't as easy to use as you think. I know, I train with them. Sprays in an enclosed environment can affect both people.

What would an equally big man do vs that armed attacker?

EDIT: I was not the first to mention guns
You still wont answer the basic question whether or not she has the right to defend herself.

hey, what about this: if you start to legislate to enable citizens to deal with law-breaking, you're assuming the law will be broken; the countries where private citizens are allowed to have the most means with which to defend themselves against crime are-surprise, surprise-the ones with the highest crime rates, and putting enw guns on the market only drives the rate up.

The lady has the right to do what she can to defend herself whether it be CS spraying the bastard or knifing him in the leg, but having a gun around is not likely to be of any real help.

You still wont answer the basic question whether or not she has the right to defend herself.
sure she can

A woman has the right to defend herself by whatever means. If they can't use or do not have access to a gun then a knife, will work. I would rather that they have the ultimate in terminal responce: I.E. a gun.

Now I just have to teach her how to use it. Yikes!

hey, what about this: if you start to legislate to enable citizens to deal with law-breaking, you're assuming the law will be broken; the countries where private citizens are allowed to have the most means with which to defend themselves against crime are-surprise, surprise-the ones with the highest crime rates, and putting enw guns on the market only drives the rate up.
You are not taking into account many factors for the high crime rates in gun societies. Easier access to illegal drugs, less of a social safety net for the poor, ethnic diversity and strife, etc. Guns can be smuggled in just as easily as drugs. Eliminating the legitimate supply will only drive prices higher and create a new gun-running mafia. This will result in the thugs being better armed than the citizens.

She has a definite right to defend herself, to think she should just lay back and take it is both sick and wrong.

The lady has the right to do what she can to defend herself whether it be CS spraying the bastard or knifing him in the leg, but having a gun around is not likely to be of any real help.
Who says guns are of no real help? A gun lets her engage the attacker at a distance. It gives a more instantly incapacitating wound than a knife. If knives were so great for defense the military would issue big knives instead of guns.

What would an equally big man do vs that armed attacker?
DIT: I was not the first to mention guns

Then it is left to the person to decide. Even if your attacker is smaller than you, it doesn't mean they can't kick your ass and snap your neck even if unarmed.

That is why under law it all falls back onto threat to life or lives. If you feel threatened and how much of a threat do you feel will justify physical and lethal force. Most people will try to handle the situation with the least amount of violence possible, it is only when lethal force is the only sure way to live that they use it. Otherwise you hear about them in jail, because they broke the law.

A 280+lb man (ex husband) attacks a friend of mine (the ex wife a 110lb woman) with a maul. Knocks the deadbolt through the inside trim crashing the door in. Woman is in bedroom and hears it and closes and locks bedroom door. Grabs 357 loaded with 38+p gold dots. Man starts smashing bedroom door in, while woman fires one shot at mans chest. Man lies inside the hole he made to the door. Woman is alive and police (and family of man) are amazed and happy she did what she had to do. btw this whole situation was estimated to happen within 90 seconds.

you don´t need a gun to defend you, what about things like tack whuon do (don´t know how to write this) or knife or irritaton gas
hey, what about this: if you start to legislate to enable citizens to deal with law-breaking, you're assuming the law will be broken; the countries where private citizens are allowed to have the most means with which to defend themselves against crime are-surprise, surprise-the ones with the highest crime rates, and putting enw guns on the market only drives the rate up.
You are not taking into account many factors for the high crime rates in gun societies. Easier access to illegal drugs, less of a social safety net for the poor, ethnic diversity and strife, etc. Guns can be smuggled in just as easily as drugs. Eliminating the legitimate supply will only drive prices higher and create a new gun-running mafia. This will result in the thugs being better armed than the citizens.
This is not a gun control thread. It is about the right to self defense.

Everyone has the right to self defense. Nobody in his right mind would deny that. Case closed.

I think she absolutely should have the right to defend herself.

I'd also like to see male rapists get castrated as punishment for their crime.

I'd also like to see male rapists get castrated as punishment for their crime

If not shot, along with child molestors. The people that touch a kid inappropriately need to be lobotomized.

If someone breaks into a woman's home, with the sole intent of rape, not robbery, does she have the right to defend herself (by any means necessary)Yes, of course. The more interesting question is if she has the right to means to defend herself, specifically handguns.

Some convicted rapists have later been released when DNA evidence or other evidence cleared them. If they had been castrated it would have been a terrible crime against an innocent man.

Everyone has the right to self defense. Nobody in his right mind would deny that. Case closed.

We may disagree on guns but here I agree with you completely.

I'd also like to see male rapists get castrated as punishment for their crime.

I can't agree with that, not because I think rape is any less terrible than you obviously do but simply because such barbaric practice really cannot be had in civilised society. Would you go back to cutting the hands off thieves and burning people for heresy?

Some convicted rapists have later been released when DNA evidence or other evidence cleared them. If they had been castrated it would have been a terrible crime against an innocent man.

I agree, but if there is overwelming evidence along with dna or maybe a confession then off with the balls! :)

I agree, but if there is overwelming evidence along with dna or maybe a confession then off with the balls! :)
Can't we just execute them? I don't want to be as barbaric as some other cultures.

I can't agree with that, not because I think rape is any less terrible than you obviously do but simply because such barbaric practice really cannot be had in civilised society. Would you go back to cutting the hands off thieves and burning people for heresy?

barbaric smarbaric... when you commit an inhumane act, expect the same inhumane treatment back. The burning for heresay, noway that is retarded. The chop suey on hands for stealing is right on! You steal something, then we steal your means of stealing. Kind of hard to pick up a bowling ball without any hands hehe. Honestly though, I do not see anything wrong with severe punishment for stealing, killing, raping, molesting. When it is known without a doubt this person commited these acts. Off with the head, hands, or balls.

Can't we just execute them? I don't want to be as barbaric as some other cultures.

Heck I think that is even better. Off with the head! Ok a measly needle in the arm is fine also.

barbaric smarbaric... when you commit an inhumane act, expect the same inhumane treatment back. The burning for heresay, noway that is retarded. The chop suey on hands for stealing is right on! You steal something, then we steal your means of stealing. Kind of hard to pick up a bowling ball without any hands hehe. Honestly though, I do not see anything wrong with severe punishment for stealing, killing, raping, molesting. When it is known without a doubt this person commited these acts. Off with the head, hands, or balls.
I don't beleive the state should punish. It should protect the innocent. Lock predators away or kill them so they can't hurt others. The state should be morally superior so as to inspire better ethics in the people.

I agree, but if there is overwelming evidence along with dna or maybe a confession then off with the balls! :)
Oh, what a good idea, lets make sure that no-one confesses, ever...Anyway, it's not as if a confession can't be faked or forced out of someone...A case in the seventies where a mentally handicapped man confessed to the rape and murder of a woman recently was proved to be a miscarriage of justice as the man was forced to sign a document he didn't understand under duress.....Good thing he didn't get his balls chopped off, he only lost the best years of his life...
And anyway, what do you intend to do with all these bitter castrati? Release them back into society with no balls and a serious grudge?

I don't beleive the state should punish. It should protect the innocent. Lock predators away or kill them so they can't hurt others. The state should be morally superior so as to inspire better ethics in the people.

Damn your to logical, I want you to be president now. I do admit that I let my feelings get in the way on punishments I want it to be as harsh as possbile, I also know this is wrong. Now if we could just get it through to the anti-rights (anti-gun) people to not let their feelings dictate how things should be for other people then we may have something to go on.

Joe P for prez!

Damn your to logical, I want you to be president now. I do admit that I let my feelings get in the way on punishments I want it to be as harsh as possbile, I also know this is wrong. Now if we could just get it through to the anti-rights (anti-gun) people to not let their feelings dictate how things should be for other people then we may have something to go on.

Joe P for prez!
I accept your nomination. Joey is reporting for duty.

Oh, what a good idea, lets make sure that no-one confesses, ever...Anyway, it's not as if a confession can't be faked or forced out of someone...A case in the seventies where a mentally handicapped man confessed to the rape and murder of a woman recently was proved to be a miscarriage of justice as the man was forced to sign a document he didn't understand under duress.....Good thing he didn't get his balls chopped off, he only lost the best years of his life...
And anyway, what do you intend to do with all these bitter castrati? Release them back into society with no balls and a serious grudge?

No I like the idea of lethal injection better its more humane. I just let my feelings get in the way I guess hehe. Also I agree that we shouldn't be to quick to judge people. But also we can not just not do something to criminals because we are in fear of something else. They commit a crime and it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt (with todays dna testing etc.. that stuff that proved the handicapped guy didnt do the deed) then that calls for swift justice.

a few years back the sheriff told my mother in law (a tiny 74 year old spanish lady) to shoot any presumed bad guy who showed up at her door and to make sure she killed him, then to drag his body into the house so there would be no doubt as to the self defense issue. (we live so far out into the boonies that there is no way that a deputy could be here in time to "rescue" anyone)

There are plenty of other ways to defend yourself other then shooting a person
Not on the NRA space on the monopoly board

She has the right to do whatever it takes to prevent herself from becoming harmed.

I'm not against guns because I want people to be at the mercy of rapists/murderers etc., but because at least half the time when a gun is used to kill someone, it is used by little Jimmy to shoot the neighbours kid.

IMO,you should bust a cap in their ass as soon as they break in,regardless of their intent.

a few years back the sheriff told my mother in law (a tiny 74 year old spanish lady) to shoot any presumed bad guy who showed up at her door and to make sure she killed him, then to drag his body into the house so there would be no doubt as to the self defense issue. (we live so far out into the boonies that there is no way that a deputy could be here in time to "rescue" anyone)

I can see that really the officer was telling her the truth. But how is she going to be able to drag some 200+lb dude into her house? Plus with the drag marks of blood and all hehe it would get complicated... Tell her to just give me a call and i'll carry them into the house for her. :)

But like someone else said if she feels her life is endangered then she needs to do what she needs to do in order to stay alive so she can still visit with her daugher inlaw :).

Also the truth is, that you can still use deadly force on someone outside your home. If there is someone outside her house with a gun firing into it or throwing malotov cocktails at her house or whatever... plus with her being 74 she might not have that great of eye sight so just tell her to shoot anyone with something in their hands hehe ;) I hope she lives in a fair state or country!

I'm not against guns because I want people to be at the mercy of rapists/murderers etc., but because at least half the time when a gun is used to kill someone, it is used by little Jimmy to shoot the neighbours kid.
That's simply not true. The statistic often quoted by HCI and Million (ignorant) Moms March is skewed. They say that a gun in the house is often used against it's owner. In cooking the books they count instances of suicide and accidental death as the gun being used against it's owner. Note that many Medical Examiners will cover up a suicide by labeling it an accidental death. This is in order to lessen the pain and guilt felt by family members. If you subtract suicides you find that guns actually kill criminals more than their owners. Suicidal people can find many ways to kill themselves. Banning guns won't save them.