NationStates Jolt Archive

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia.

People always say "Russia fought good/bad during WWII" or "America and Russia hated each other suring the Cold War" and "The Russian government was extremely oppressive" and so on and so forth, but they don't seem to realise that Russia did not exist. Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war? Do we say how easily Gaul was conquered after the falure of the Maginot Line? If not, why do we keep talking about Russia?

They might have spoken Russian, but in America we speak English and we aren't England. They might have ruled the land formerly ruled by Russia, but Peru rules the land formerly ruled by the Incans and they're not the Incan Empire. I can't think of any more things to say right now, but you get the idea.

It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right.

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia.

People always say "Russia fought good/bad during WWII" or "America and Russia hated each other suring the Cold War" and "The Russian government was extremely oppressive" and so on and so forth, but they don't seem to realise that Russia did not exist. Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war? Do we say how easily Gaul was conquered after the falure of the Maginot Line? If not, why do we keep talking about Russia?

They might have spoken Russian, but in America we speak English and we aren't England. They might have ruled the land formerly ruled by Russia, but Peru rules the land formerly ruled by the Incans and they're not the Incan Empire. I can't think of any more things to say right now, but you get the idea.

It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right.
We all stand corrected. :(
But on a similar point, my Grandfather fought the Germans in Africa not the Nazis, of all the prisoners he saw there was only two Nazis, it's like saying the Conservatives fought the Nazis in the battle of Britain. In loads of reports in the news it appears that the PC thing to say is that during the war the Nazis did this or that, it was the Germans. I'm sure modern Germans won't mind us being accurate, after all it was nothing to do with them (other than the few people still alive that voted Hitler to power).
So it's the USSR and the Germans then when refering to WWII?

Less than 10% of the population of Germany joined the Nazis party. If you do not join the Nazi party then you're not a Nazi. Plain and simple. Even if you're a facist, or a racist, or even a guy who justs likes saying "Heil Hitler!", if you don't join the party you're not a Nazi (I was considering making a thread like that next).

Less than 10% of the population of Germany joined the Nazis party. If you do not join the Nazi party then you're not a Nazi. Plain and simple. Even if you're a facist, or a racist, or even a guy who justs likes saying "Heil Hitler!", if you don't join the party you're not a Nazi (I was considering making a thread like that next).
I think the trend for calling Germans Nazis for periods during WWII is one of these over eager PC things.
If people say Nazi is does not mean than any modern Germans feel uncomfortable. But why should they, I'm English and my histroy has some very dark times. But it had nothing to do with me.

Just to answer your question, the reason we refer to Russia as if it existed is becuase it is in the reletivly unique position of returning under the same name, and reletivly same area and nature as before it's time as the USSR. We obviosly dont say any of the things in your example:

"Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war?"

Becuase it would be incredibly confusing to refer to contries by names no one has heard of, outside of history class, and few people can remember what location the old name refers to.

Unless a contry dramaticaly changed nature or location since the time period being discused, people use its current name for clarity, regardless of what it was called at the time.

if you call any modern day germen a nazi i guarantee that they would be offended

if you call any modern day germen a nazi i guarantee that they would be offended
True but the point being those that fought in WWII were not by any means all Nazi in fact Nazis were rare even then.

Silly argument. The USSR was simply a Russian empire.
Russia existed as you can see on this map of the USSR:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/images/ussr1950.gif
I could say the same thing about Texas - Texas hasn't existed since 1845 because it has been a state since then.

if you call any modern day germen a nazi i guarantee that they would be offended
unless they actually are Nazis, or neo-Nazis rather.

By the by, It actually was Russia until 1922 when it became the USSR. Between 1918 and 1922 it was the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic.

Even though the may have not professed any nazi party affiliates, by definition, each soldier that faught under the Nazi regime, supported the nazis. Each of [I]Our[/I} soldiers support the regime they are under, Including me when I made a vow to support my government, whether I agree with it or not.

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia.

People always say "Russia fought good/bad during WWII" or "America and Russia hated each other suring the Cold War" and "The Russian government was extremely oppressive" and so on and so forth, but they don't seem to realise that Russia did not exist. Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war? Do we say how easily Gaul was conquered after the falure of the Maginot Line? If not, why do we keep talking about Russia?

They might have spoken Russian, but in America we speak English and we aren't England. They might have ruled the land formerly ruled by Russia, but Peru rules the land formerly ruled by the Incans and they're not the Incan Empire. I can't think of any more things to say right now, but you get the idea.

It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right.

You started a thread just because people use Russia in stead of USSR? Damn, such people we call "kommaneukers", wich means as much as comma fucker. You worry about details. Anyhow, the leading people of the USSR were still Russians, their state's name changed, but the people didn't change. Anyhow, you could say the same thing about Americans. Americans were the native people or you could see it as just people who live on the continents North- and South-America. So Canadians, Mexicans, Nicaraguans, Peruvians,... are all Americans too and people of the states well I wouldn't know how to call them, United States People? :p That is comma fucking.

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia.
People always say "Russia fought good/bad during WWII" or "America and Russia hated each other suring the Cold War" and "The Russian government was extremely oppressive" and so on and so forth, but they don't seem to realise that Russia did not exist. Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war? Do we say how easily Gaul was conquered after the falure of the Maginot Line? If not, why do we keep talking about Russia?
They might have spoken Russian, but in America we speak English and we aren't England. They might have ruled the land formerly ruled by Russia, but Peru rules the land formerly ruled by the Incans and they're not the Incan Empire. I can't think of any more things to say right now, but you get the idea.
It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right.
1. The country was named Russia for centuries prior to 1917. When a country changes its name for ideological reasons it does not change its people, in this case they remain Russians. And it is common use to name countries for just one of its ethnic groups or regional populations, like saying England for the UK, Holland for the Netherlands or Greece for Hellas.
2. Prussia was by the time of WW2 indistuingishably intertwined with Germany as a whole, since Prussia made up over 2/3 of Germany's territory. And the governmantal set-up of Germany was purely Prussian.
3. Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire was not annexed by Germany at any time. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had already broken up 1918, so only Austria joined the Reich 1938.

Less than 10% of the population of Germany joined the Nazis party. If you do not join the Nazi party then you're not a Nazi. Plain and simple. Even if you're a facist, or a racist, or even a guy who justs likes saying "Heil Hitler!", if you don't join the party you're not a Nazi (I was considering making a thread like that next).

Hey I'm tired of people calling it the Nazi Party! Hitler didn't call it the Nazi party! It was the National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter-Partei (NSDAP) or Hitler-Bewegung! In English that is the German National Socialist Workers Party. How dare you people always use the wrong terms when talking about Nazis! :p sarcasm

Anyhow, German soldiers worked for the Hitler Regime and thus for the benefit of the NSDAP. The SS, the SA, and the Hitler Jugend, the Geheime Statspolizei (Gestapo), all the people and scientists, maybe not officially members of the party, but helping in concentrationcamps. They may certainly have been labeled as "Nazis".

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia..
You are wrong - especially with the dates. The Russian Empire pre-1918 was actually bigger than the Soviet Union. In 1918 (March) Germany forced a peace on Russia: The treaty of Brest-Litovsk. In this treaty Russia had to surrender Poland (mainly controlled by Russia - the czar was also the polish king), the three baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania), Belarus, the Ukraine and Finnland to Germany, the Austrian-Hungarian Empire - the future of those territories were - according to the treaty - to be determined by Germany in accordance with the local population. Those arreas all belonged to the Russian Empire. Russia had also to agree that Persia and Afghanistan are independent states. Ironicly the line of Brest-Litovsk is almost the western border line today.
After Germany lost the war at the west in autum 1918 Russia was able to regain some of the territories it lost in 1919/20(parts of Belarus and the Ukraine - in a war with newly established Poland). The other territories it partly regained due to the Hitler-Stalin pact of 1939 (parts of Poland and of Finnland). In 1991 it feel back to the 1918 border.
In the revolutionary period a civil war broke out. That happened immidately after the peace deal with Germany in March 1918 was signed. The opposition called it a betrayl of the country.
The Russian Civil War lasted from 1918-22. During that time many territories conquored by Russia during the 19 th century declared themself independent.
Georgia for example (1918-20) and in Central Asia a turkish general led an resistance movement.
The Soviets were able to defeat their enemies, to smash rebellions in the south and to regain back territories in the west - parts of the Ukraine and Belarus.
In 1922 it reunited those under the name - Union of Soviet Socialists Republics.
So - if we are accurate we would need to say: The time between 1922-1991 was the time of the Soviet Union. But it was dominated by Russians.
By the way: Germany between 1871-1945 was dominated by Prussia and Prussians as well. One reason the state of Prussia was terminated in 1946 - most of its territories belong to Poland today - not to the modern Germany.
It was - by the way - for a long time common to say Soviet Russia. It was also for a long time after 1871 common to say Prussia-Germany. The German Confederation (1815-66) included Prussia and Austria and the small medium states. The Prussian-Austrian rivalry - aside of the interests of other european powers and the will of the small kings and dukes to hold to power - was a main reason for the continuation of the divisions in Germany (which were the result of the reformation in the 16 th century and the 30-year war (1618-48) after the "Liberation wars" (1813-15) against Napoleon.
The democratic, liberal and national movement tried to unite the country through the revolution of 1848/49.
And they immidiately began disputes about what should be united. At the end a majority voted for the so-called small German solution - which excluded Austria. One reason was the fact that Austria at that time included many balkanic territories. They would have tried to seek independence at get their own national states. That was of course not in the interests of the Austrian government. The other reasons laid in economic question. Prussia founded a customs union in 1834. Within a few years all other states joined it - except Austria. Austria was economically underdeveloped. It needed high customs to protect its own weak industry. The customs union however conducted a free-trade policy. Prussia was economically superior to Austria. And thirdly: it was hoped that such a solution would actually bridge differences between Prussia and Austria and their two dynasties - the Hohenzollern and the Habsburger - due to the fact that it was added with an alliance offer to Austria.
Of course that attempt failed. Prussia, Austria and Russia (Holy Alliance) wanted to roll back the revolution - Prussia rejected that idea by claiming that only the other dukes have the right to give the crown but not a parliament.

Though 23 years later Germany was united by Prussia and under Prussian hegemony - through iron and blood and three little wars.(1864, 1866, 1870/71).
First a joint operation by Austria and Prussia against Denmark due to the Schleswig-Holstein dispute. Than in 1866 the German war (Austria-Prussia) which began as a dispute about the administration of the territory which was jointly administred. It resulted in the end of the German Confederation and the foundation of the North German Federation (which only excluded South Germany) under Prussian leadership. And than the provoced war of France versus Prussia in 1870/71 which was the unification war and established Prussian hegemony over Germany.
That was simply a size question. Prussia was just the biggest of the states and therefore the most dominant state between 1871-1933. Prussian king = German emperor. Prussian prime minister - mostly also German chancellor.
There was a clear domination by Prussia and Prussians. Up until Hitler who was an Austrian actually.

The Federal Republic of Germany, founded in 1949, was in contrast to that a "Rhineland-republic". And in a sense anti-prussian. That goes even down to confessional divisions - Prussia - protestant, Rhineland and South Germany - mainly catholic. Prussia had anected the Rhineland in 1815 - leading to anti-prussian sentiment in that region.
Catholicism was dominant in "West" Germany. With the reunification - or legally spoken the accesion of the GDR into the Federal Republic - there was a discussion whether the country is becoming again more protestant and more prussian. But Prussia doesn´t exist any more(they are the states Berlin and Brandenburg - the territory with the historic name Prussia belongs today partly to Poland and Russia). And East Germany is mainly atheist and not protestant.
So - no need to be afraid for a new wilhelminism or new prussian (expansionist) tendencies. That´s over. There is no basis for that. Pacifism is so strong that 85% even rejected an intervention in Iraq - and the Nato operation against Yugoslavia in 1999 - the first combat operation since World War II for Germany - was heavily disputed.
But probably the government adopts another position towards Iran since they may pose a real threat due to their nuclear program and their medium or even long-range missiles. A threat which may even reach Central Europe.

1. The country was named Russia for centuries prior to 1917. When a country changes its name for ideological reasons it does not change its people, in this case they remain Russians. And it is common use to name countries for just one of its ethnic groups or regional populations, like saying England for the UK, Holland for the Netherlands or Greece for Hellas.
But that is wrong: Any Britain would object that the country is called England. Actually UK would be the correct term, since the UK is not only Britain either.
I don´t know how the Dutch think about being called Holland, though? Regarding Russia you are right.
2. Prussia was by the time of WW2 indistuingishably intertwined with Germany as a whole, since Prussia made up over 2/3 of Germany's territory. And the governmantal set-up of Germany was purely Prussian.
Prussia had rather taken over the rest of Germany not the rest of Germany Prussia. That only changed after World War II. So the term Prussia-Germany wouldn´t be wrong (especially for the time 1871-1918, but also till 1933 and afterwards they still dominated the bureaucracy).


3. Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire was not annexed by Germany at any time. The Austro-Hungarian Empire had already broken up 1918, so only Austria joined the Reich 1938.
Well, Hitler led his homeland "back" into the Empire (Reich).
Though it can´t be said that they objected. There had been an uprising in Austria shortly before by their interior minister Seyß-Inquardt against the "Austrofacists" Schuschnigg. His goverment which came to power due to an earlier uprising. The "new" government "joined" the German Reich. Of course Seyß-Inquardt was hanged for that in 1946, though at that time most people supported that move.

It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right. Agreed.

I'm also sick of people subsituting the two, especially when other former Soviet republics like Ukraine are referred to as 'Russia'.

It was the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic. Same as Latvia was the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic.
That was why it was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It wasn't a single entity, more like a more federalised European Union.

Agreed.

I'm also sick of people subsituting the two, especially when other former Soviet republics like Ukraine are referred to as 'Russia'.
On the other hand: The Soviet Union was legally the afterrunner of the Russian Empire. And the Russian Federation is legally the afterrunner of the Soviet Union.
It can´t escape that fact. Neither can the Federal Republic of Germany escape the fact that it was founded on parts of the territory that once was the German Reich - though on a much smaller portion of it.

There should be a differentiation. But the Soviet era belongs to the Russian history just as the era of the Second and Third Reich belongs to the German history (1871-1945).

It was the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic. Same as Latvia was the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic.
That was why it was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. It wasn't a single entity, more like a more federalised European Union.
This comparison is nonsense. All Soviet territories belonged to the Russian Empire pre-1918. They actually lost many territories as I explained. Many declared themself independent.
The Communists won the Civil War (1918-22), bashed the seperatist like in Georia (1918-20 independent state) and forced them under their rule: the rule of Moscow.
In 1922 the so-called Union of Soviet Socialists Republics was founded - to reestablish the rule of Moscow and to stabilize the communists rule. That was in no way a voluntary union like the EU. In the EU every state has the right to leave it.
That right didn´t exist in the Soviet Union. It was actually a pretty centralized state. Controlled not just by one party rule but one-man rule. It was a totalitarian dictatorship till its end in 1991.

From the years of 1917 A.D. to 1991 A.D. the nation of Russia did not exist. The land known as Russia before and after said dates was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (Or Soviet Union for short). The U.S.S.R. also ruled many other countries currently in existence. However, during that time It Was Not Russia.

People always say "Russia fought good/bad during WWII" or "America and Russia hated each other suring the Cold War" and "The Russian government was extremely oppressive" and so on and so forth, but they don't seem to realise that Russia did not exist. Do we talk about Prussia when we discuss Germany's action in WWII? Is the Austro-Hungarian Empire mentioned as being annexed by Germany early in the war? Do we say how easily Gaul was conquered after the falure of the Maginot Line? If not, why do we keep talking about Russia?

They might have spoken Russian, but in America we speak English and we aren't England. They might have ruled the land formerly ruled by Russia, but Peru rules the land formerly ruled by the Incans and they're not the Incan Empire. I can't think of any more things to say right now, but you get the idea.

It's nothing major, simply a substitution of two words for one (Soviet Union for Russia), but it changes the entire meaning of your statement. Get it right.

Russia doesn't technically exist now either.
It's official title is the Russian Federation.
However, even Russians call themselves Russians and many did during the Soviet era as well.

It was a totalitarian dictatorship till its end in 1991. Not exactly true. Elections were held during the Gorbachev era (1985-1991).

In 1918 (March) Germany forced a peace on Russia: The treaty of Brest-Litovsk. In this treaty Russia had to surrender Poland (mainly controlled by Russia - the czar was also the polish king), the three baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania), Belarus, the Ukraine and Finnland to Germany, the Austrian-Hungarian Empire - the future of those territories were - according to the treaty - to be determined by Germany in accordance with the local population. Those arreas all belonged to the Russian Empire.
After Germany lost the war at the west in autum 1918 Russia was able to regain some of the territories it lost in 1919/20(parts of Belarus and the Ukraine - in a war with newly established Poland). The other territories it partly regained due to the Hitler-Stalin pact of 1939 (parts of Poland and of Finnland). In 1991 it feel back to the 1918 border.

Finland got it's independency in 1917 due the revolution in Russia (October revolution in 1917...) In WW2 Finland fought against USSR with Germany (and in the end against Germany as well, those bastards burned 1/4 of our country) and as Germany lost, Finland permanently lost huge parts of it's land (Karelia, Petsamo...) and has never been able to reclaim those parts. But Finland managed to stain independent, unlike Estonia, which -as you mentioned- got it's independensy back only in 1991.
By the way are you German? Cos you spell Finland like Germans do.

I'm going to call you every time you don't use the official name for a nation. It's not Taiwan; it's the Republic of China. It's not the UK, or even the United Kingdom; it's the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland. It's not Greece; it's the Hellenic Republic. It's not Macedonia (although I doubt you'll even talk about Macedonia); it's the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Afghanistan; the Transitional Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Argentia; the Argentine Republic. Etc., etc., etc.

Get all high and mighty about not calling the USSR Russia and I'll bring down the hammer. You're not the only one who realizes that the USSR was technically different from Russia; it's just that most of us aren't so anal-retentive as to make a big deal about it.

I'm going to call you every time you don't use the official name for a nation. It's not Taiwan; it's the Republic of China. It's not the UK, or even the United Kingdom; it's the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland.

I'm truly sorry for everyone living in the great country of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. When I had just arrived to England (and I mean England) I was very arrogant and called English people British and even insulted them by calling them Europeans. I very quickly learned not to do that.