NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm just curious - some people seem to have a really negative view of goths and the gothic subculture. Is this primarily a reaction to the Columbine incident?

I'm not a goth myself, but I did used to frequent gothic clubs when I was younger, and still have some friends who are right into the scene, and most of them are relatively normal, happy people.

I also think some people have a totally misrepresented mental image of what a goth is - most goths aren't angst ridden teenagers who self mutilate and take guns to school. Most aren't even into pop rock like Marilyn Manson or Evanescence. Of course, EVERY subculture (metalheads, punks, sk8ters, homies etc etc) has it's bad apples and wannabes that make the whole subculture look bad.

What are you opinions on goths? Are there any goths on the forums?

:)

It became an insult in response to the thousands of dissaffected teens who wanted to rebel and thought wearing black and moping around was even remotely related to "goth"

Hell, I have a really classy, nice black trenchcoat that I wear in the winter, and I've been called a "goth" for wearing it.

There really aren't very many so-called "gothic" kids at my school, but the ones that I know I don't really mind. They aren't bad people or anything. But there is one particular girl that is a "goth" that kind of scares me, she thinks that she can do magic and she has an evil, piercing stare.

I think they'e funny.

Since goths became sad, whining pussies and not the badass people that totally pwned the Roman empire.

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.

See, that's the real problem. Those people you described aren't actual goths, they're just posers. They think that wearing black and being depressed makes them goth.

its because back in the bad old 80s they just called goth kids fags, but now that gay culture is more acceptable, homophobic attacks are less cool. so they just transfered the insult over to the goths. its really wussiness and effeminacy that are the basis of the attack whether it be against gays or goths. it is an attack on those perceived to be weak and disempowered within the peer structure. i suppose it germany in the 20s you would just have called them jews and left it at that.

i think goths are cute like sad little puppies, i just want to pat their black spikey little heads and tell them their so sweel looking.

See, that's the real problem. Those people you described aren't actual goths, they're just posers. They think that wearing black and being depressed makes them goth.

See, that's the real problem. "Goth" to the majority of people DOES mean those depressed and black-clad kids, and this is why it's now an insult.

See, that's the real problem. Those people you described aren't actual goths, they're just posers. They think that wearing black and being depressed makes them goth.
What in your opinion makes someone a real goth?

What in your opinion makes someone a real goth?

To be honest, I don't know. I'm not well versed in gothic culture enough to know what a real goth is. But I know that listening to Marilyn Manson and wearing all black doesn't make you goth.

To be honest, I don't know. I'm not well versed in gothic culture enough to know what a real goth is. But I know that listening to Marilyn Manson and wearing all black doesn't make you goth.
Yeah. Moping around all the time and critisizing everyone else for being a conformist (even though you dress and act exactly the same as all of your friends) makes you a Goth. Where did they get the idea to call themselves Goths anyway? There's no relationship whatsoever to the real Goths, they just use the name.

The goths I know are stereotypical; angsty, stupid, lazy bums. They do all sorts of weird things, some of which they say are in Satan's name, giving the real Satanists a bad rep even more.

everyone in a subculture like the goths starts out as a wannabe and everyone is a bit of a poseur. you choose to dress a certain way to make a certain impression. you want people to believe certain things about you by the way you present yourself, and those impressions you want to create are almost never entirely true. everyone is a posuer.

Yeah. Moping around all the time and critisizing everyone else for being a conformist (even though you dress and act exactly the same as all of your friends) makes you a Goth. Where did they get the idea to call themselves Goths anyway? There's no relationship whatsoever to the real Goths, they just use the name.
hmm, it sounds like someone is basing their impression of posuer goths at least partially on a certain episode of south park.

The goths I know are stereotypical; angsty, stupid, lazy bums. They do all sorts of weird things, some of which they say are in Satan's name, giving the real Satanists a bad rep even more.


ought to have big jim p come over and slap some sense into 'em:p

Yeah. Moping around all the time and critisizing everyone else for being a conformist (even though you dress and act exactly the same as all of your friends) makes you a Goth. Where did they get the idea to call themselves Goths anyway? There's no relationship whatsoever to the real Goths, they just use the name.

The music got called goth before the fans. Joy Division were described as 'gothic' sounding in one review and soon the title stuck to all post-punk that had the guitars quieter, with loud bass and drums and introspective lyrics.

hmm, it sounds like someone is basing their impression of posuer goths at least partially on a certain episode of south park.
So tell me, what is a Goth exactly?

So tell me, what is a Goth exactly?

i'd ask someone who claims to be one, let them define themselves. i just assume the cute little monkeys in black and fishnet are, but its not my subculture so i wouldn't be inclined to attempt a definition.

Since goths became sad, whining pussies and not the badass people that totally pwned the Roman empire.

yeah well, the first use of "Gothic" as an insult probably dates back to when the tasteless people of the renassance decided to call medieval architecture "gothic", 'cause apparently it was 'barbaric'.

and on another note, i don't consider the columbine shooters gothic, i regard 'gothic' as a music based subculture, and they listened to marilyn manson. i'm not sure what the present day gothic music scene is comprised of, mostly industrial i expect, but it wasbands like Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, Fields of the Nephilim,Sisters of Mercy and Christian Death that defined and carved out the Goth sound.

As a formerly goth-friendly 30-year old who no longer frequents the club but still listens to some old school gothic music and appreciates the aesthetic, here's my take.

In an informal survey* I took of the gothic culture during a series of parties some years ago, the vast majority (9 out of 10), had a very negative experience with Christianity growing up, which they linked with mainstream culture. In the rebellion, they've taken the images of Christianity and have perverted and inverted them.

There is also a feeling of persecution by "the masses", and I think that you can see an excellent example of that from this forum. When you read some of the earlier posts, you can see examples of insensitivity, ignorance and hostility and complete lack of compassion.

I think to a lot of them, this ties into thier relationship with the church at an earlier, and since the social leaders of goth culture are actually quite intelligent and creative, this world view gets engrained. (There are stratum within goth culture of people who simply do not fit in anywhere else, and gothdom, while very much a clique with a strong social hierarchy, will accept nearly anyone one on some level, being that they are all outcasts themselves and in general are hyper-aware of hypocrisy)

Anyway, just my $0.02.

* My impotus for survey came from a "New Years of Good and Evil" party I attended. I wore a priests frock and carried a bible and a My Little Buddy doll. I was holding the My Little Buddy doll so my hand was supporting him, and my finger was sticking out of his pants, and I was rubbing my finger w/ my other hand. I had over half a dozen goths at a party of around 70 confide they had themselves been abused by clergy.

Well I believe it was when I saw a "Goth" wearing the classic makeup, while wearing a Linkin Park T-shirt...kinda defeated the whole purpose...

Oh and the original Goths became Christian...and didn't wear pussy makeup and other crap these so called "Goths" today wear.

Here's a good site for someone who wants to know more about "what is goth":

http://www.gothicsubculture.com/

See, most of the descriptions I have read here are exactly what I am talking about - people tend to sterotype subcultures based on the poorest examples, and based on what a sadly misinformed mainstream media tells them. I would describe the group that people are sterotyping here more as "indie-rock-gloomy-mallrats" than goths. I guess all subcultures become bastardised eventually. The punk movement of today is pretty much just a poor, misguided parody of what it was in the 70s and early 80s...

I guess all subcultures become bastardised eventually. The punk movement of today is pretty much just a poor, misguided parody of what it was in the 70s and early 80s...
Damn frickin' straight. Except this neo-punk movement has lost all sense of direction and has degraded down to a weird fashion and horrible pop/punk bands... oh and skateboarding--apparently thats a form of raging against the machine...

I'm sure there are punks who are still true punks, but the mass of this new punk movement is just... pathetic...

For the most part in the realm of metal, those who are true to metal have partitioned themselves off from the mass-media bastardized "metal", by simply labeling nu-metal. Thats the problem with say punk and goth subcultures... No real partition from the pop bullshit that perveted them...

Well I believe it was when I saw a "Goth" wearing the classic makeup, while wearing a Linkin Park T-shirt...kinda defeated the whole purpose...

Oh and the original Goths became Christian...and didn't wear pussy makeup and other crap these so called "Goths" today wear.
The modern goths do not purport to be a revival of c. 5th century AD Gothic tribes... modern goth culture looks to be drawing inspiration from the 19th century Gothic revival/romantic movements in Europe and America during which there was a fascination about Gothic architecture, the mystical, the grotesque, the irrational, and eccentric behavior. The gothic horror genre of literature was invented then and some of the greatest horror authors of all time like Edgar Allan Poe and Mary Shelley wrote dark, disturbing works of literature which resound with themes associated with stereotypically gothic people today, such as alienation, loneliness, and death. Although I highly doubt many goths in high school know anything about the history of the gothic movement and the vast majority of them are a bunch of useless, attention-seeking, pathetic, filthy punks.

I just laugh.

What you call 'goths' I call evil talking mimes.

It's an insult to the human race to be a goth, all they do is (in the words of Maddox): sit around being depressed and writing crappy poetry.

I think all goths should go to heaven when they die, just to piss them off

Anyway: I just think they're funny. In the middle of the summer they're wearing black longsleeves or dresses. They wear way to broad spiked bracelets and necklaces. They paint their face white... AND THEY LIKE IT. They don't realise they look like badass clowns.

When old poeple decide to start insulting the younger adult with their standards.

Just about the time when the young started to recognize that the old hold sway, but they will inherit the world.

Just about when I made the comment that "she was cute, with her hot-pink hair" and became a geezer myself.

I rather find it interesting that people are whining about the Goths whining, and then, when someone actually does something other than whining, such as at Columbine, (yes, I know they weren't actually Goths) this isn't good, either. So take your pick. Me, I'd rather put up with a bunch of whining than be murdered by someone who acknowledges that the world sucks and doesn't know of any other way to make it better other than to obliterate it.

Historical use of the word gothic comes from the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. They were raiders and according to the "civilized" world they were very grotesque, ill-mannered and displeasing.

Many years later after the fall of Rome and when the Goths had all been integrated into society the term gothic came to mean something that was grotesque or displeasing to the eyes. Often this was in the form of architecture. Even though the Goths were anything but architects that is what people thought of when people said gothic.

Nowadays with all the black makeup and whatnot people started calling it gothic because it was displeasing to the eyes and in some peoples opinion quite grotesque.

Although I can appreciate gothic archetecture, I just can’t find myself to appreciate the modern Goths. Although I do have a friend who teaches music and he says that it’s the Goths who always do the best in his class.

I started disliking goths when I met a pair of them and met all their goth friends. The two I met were basically just teenagers, and talked about how their parents were so mean to them for expecting anything of them, and how they lived on the "street". The "street" being their friends' sofas. Basically whiney kids in lots of black makeup and clothes, and when I met their friends I learned that they hung out in the local cemetary drinking. This was cool to them. They listened to Marilyn Manson a lot, and thought he was cool too.

I found after a very short time that I didn't have time for them, or anyone like them. Most of the goths I've met have been much like them. Some of them even take up the pretense of being satanists or even intellectuals and poets. Bad ones.

...and when I met their friends I learned that they hung out in the local cemetary drinking...
Hey man, don’t diss hanging out at the cemetery. The cemetery is one of the most peaceful places to hang out in. It’s great for meditation and just relaxing.

Hey man, don’t diss hanging out at the cemetery. The cemetery is one of the most peaceful places to hang out in. It’s great for meditation and just relaxing.

Yeah, but doing it for all the wrong reasons isn't cool. They were doing it to show the world what a bunch of nonconformist satanists they were. It was disrespectful. Whatever I may think of satanists or people who wear it as an affectation, I still think you should be respectful of the people who put it there, as well as having respect for the final resting place of people who kept that faith. I bet they'd be rolling in their graves if they knew what some of our generation thought of as the height of cool and irreverent.

Historical use of the word gothic comes from the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. They were raiders and according to the "civilized" world they were very grotesque, ill-mannered and displeasing.

Many years later after the fall of Rome and when the Goths had all been integrated into society the term gothic came to mean something that was grotesque or displeasing to the eyes. Often this was in the form of architecture. Even though the Goths were anything but architects that is what people thought of when people said gothic.

^^^
This is the only thing the word 'Goth' brings to my mind. What the hell are you people talking about? I thought the 'Goths' essentially ceased to exist as we know them more than a thousand years ago... there are still some Germanic nomads running around? I bet they don't look pretty :confused:. The world has gone insane, I tell you. Next you'll be telling me that vampires exist.

Lessee...Black hair, black fingernails, black lips, black clothes, Liquid Paper(tm) white face. Didn't we used to call this Halloween?

Lessee...Black hair, black fingernails, black lips, black clothes, Liquid Paper(tm) white face. Didn't we used to call this Halloween?
Imaging having goths at your door everyday: "Trick or Treat!"

some of them kinda like that face that flashes onscreen a couple times in the original Exorcist.....

I'm just curious - some people seem to have a really negative view of goths and the gothic subculture. Is this primarily a reaction to the Columbine incident?

I'm not a goth myself, but I did used to frequent gothic clubs when I was younger, and still have some friends who are right into the scene, and most of them are relatively normal, happy people.

I also think some people have a totally misrepresented mental image of what a goth is - most goths aren't angst ridden teenagers who self mutilate and take guns to school. Most aren't even into pop rock like Marilyn Manson or Evanescence. Of course, EVERY subculture (metalheads, punks, sk8ters, homies etc etc) has it's bad apples and wannabes that make the whole subculture look bad.

What are you opinions on goths? Are there any goths on the forums?

:)

I think it's misuse of the word Goth. The Goths were white European barbarians who terrorised the late Roman empire and were mainly Pagan, but eventually turned Christian later.

The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".
:confused: There realy is a thing like that?

Lessee...Black hair, black fingernails, black lips, black clothes, Liquid Paper(tm) white face. Didn't we used to call this Halloween?

I thought Halloween was when you threw unpleasant things at annoying kids when they come begging for sweets, so they can get fatter than they already are?

As said before the goths were pagan warriors who lived in scandinavia during the time that rome had power over the world. These were your typical "vikings" and numerously attacked the roman empire, nearly bringing it all down. Because of this reason the christian society forced a belief onto people that the goths were "evil" when in fact they were just a normal ancient tribe. So really there are no goths anymore since they were all killed long ago.

Goth actually took its name from the 'Gothic' movement of romantic literature: Byron, Shelley, that crowd.

Dunno about the kids these days, really, especially in high school, but it was about an *aesthetic,* and, if a rebellion, it was a rebellion against the vapidity and meaninglessness of the popular culture.

People said we were always moping, fifteen years ago, too, they were quite wrong, then, at least. Sometimes we'd stifle the laughter and try to look gloomy so as not to disappoint people, but what can you do.

Call it our bit of public service.

As for high school kids, well, Goth at least *used* to be a branch of punk.

Punks aren't *supposed* to be popular. Or give a crap what you think. :)

:confused: There realy is a thing like that?

But of course, you get plenty of fat girls (guys generally can't pull it off) trying to make themselves popular and sexy by dressing in black and looking unhealthy while in fact simply making themselves a complete spectacle...Still, it's good for a laugh...As for Christians, I couldn't say.

CAn anyone define for me the difference between a Goth and a Mosher? As 'round here the two seem to be treated as essentially the same thing, I might perhaps suggest that a Mosher is one of the annoying whiny kids who think they look cool while a Goth is an actual Goth with the whole Gothic literature - Sisters of Mercy etc. type thing. Of course Mosher could simply be local slang that no-one else has heard....

Lessee...Black hair, black fingernails, black lips, black clothes, Liquid Paper(tm) white face. Didn't we used to call this Halloween?

*full on voice of Doom* I'll post some pics of what I do on halloween soon enough. You will be amused. */voice of doom*

Really the Goth sub-culture, image-wise is based on the vampire "I am sexy but dangerous" image.

It is because the Goth look has become the mantra of a subculture of humans who have so little confidence in their own abilities to draw others attentions, they resort to mutilizing the art of physical beauty that should be based on society norms. Just because everybody else wears jeans and t-shirts or suits or even all black clothing you don't have to make the conscious effort to not conform because in this day and age noncomformity is a societal norm.

the title 'goth' started as an insult shortly after the french renaisance.

it referred to big, heavy barbaric, work such as the Notre Dame cathedral. because the goths were barbarians. and the french were trying to call themselves classy. these people who were creating this gothic work soon embraced the title, and it stopped being an insult.

what you reference now, is an insult only to those who take it as such. i am a fringe member of the boston goth scene. many of my close friends are major players in it. they are artists, dotors, engineers, musicians, and performers. they are some of the most wonderfully functional people i've ever known. and some of the most beautiful as well. none of them take it as insulting to be called goth. they tend to smile at the person shouting it and say thank you. but that's because they have a sense of humor.

the insult is only in the minds of those who don't know what it means. it's a pretty strong group, with great people, and music. we dance, and have parties, and sing, and watch movies just like anyone else. and most of the "real" goths i know smile. alot.

black is just easy to wear because it's easier to match black to black, and it passes most dresscodes easily. :)

Goth actually took its name from the 'Gothic' movement of romantic literature: Byron, Shelley, that crowd.

Dunno about the kids these days, really, especially in high school, but it was about an *aesthetic,* and, if a rebellion, it was a rebellion against the vapidity and meaninglessness of the popular culture.

People said we were always moping, fifteen years ago, too, they were quite wrong, then, at least. Sometimes we'd stifle the laughter and try to look gloomy so as not to disappoint people, but what can you do.

Call it our bit of public service.

As for high school kids, well, Goth at least *used* to be a branch of punk.

Punks aren't *supposed* to be popular. Or give a crap what you think. :)
So modern Goths rebel against the vapidity and meaninglessness of popular culture by creating a vapid and meaningless (popular) sub-culture? :-)

The goths I know are stereotypical; angsty, stupid, lazy bums. They do all sorts of weird things, some of which they say are in Satan's name, giving the real Satanists a bad rep even more.


How can you give a Satanist a bad rap, I mean worse than they already have?

the title 'goth' started as an insult shortly after the french renaisance.

it referred to big, heavy barbaric, work such as the Notre Dame cathedral. because the goths were barbarians. and the french were trying to call themselves classy. these people who were creating this gothic work soon embraced the title, and it stopped being an insult.


Eh, sad, even the original goths where looked down upon. Hmpf. They gothic tribes actually had philosofical beliefs, and saw themselves as free men - sadly the church beated them down :| Btw, i live in what was Gotland, home of the gothic chieftains ;o)

Anyhow, i've walked the gothic poser path once, but it was just the ordinary search for identity. Or poser. Eh, i followed it quite strictly, so i was true in an artificial matter. Now i don't need an identity to fit and the docs martins' in the trashcan =)

It's nice music though nonetheless, but the rebellion ain't for me :>

How can you give a Satanist a bad rap, I mean worse than they already have?
Wheell, if you want to be technical, Satanism shouldn't have a bad rap, it only gets one because people don't know what they are talking about...

Wheell, if you want to be technical, Satanism shouldn't have a bad rap, it only gets one because people don't know what they are talking about...

Most people live like satanists anyhow, including the christians =p

...giving the real Satanists a bad rep even more.

How the hell can you damage the reputation of one who openly worships Satan?

How the hell can you damage the reputation of one who openly worships Satan?

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

Heh, satanism does allow worshipping

Oh, and i'm Atheist =) I've heard from somewhere that LaVey made the satanic bible as a joke? Is that true?

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.

Wow, talk about a death wish....

Wow, talk about a death wish....
The irony. It burns.

To the question about moshers: dunno about where you come from, but moshers (AFAIK) refers (referred?) to metalheads who were into thrash metal, and punk hardcore/metal crossover bands, like DRI, SOD, MOD, Kreator, Sodom, Slayer, Anthrax etc. etc. etc.

From most of the answers I see here, it seems the public opinion of the gothic subculture is almost entirely based on poser kids and media misrepresentation. Maybe the true (modern) gothic movement is dead...

I still remember how the metalhead culture was demonised after James Vance shot himself listening to Judas Priest...in almost all TV reports on metal, they would try to find the biggest loser metalheads to interview that they could find, and try to portray all metal fans as homicidal/suicidal, demon-worshipping, moronic, alcoholic junkies...it gave lazy/neglectful parents yet another scapegoat to blame for how their kids turned out.

P.S. Yes, goths were originally barbarians from thousands of years ago, but many such terms get converted/used for more modern meanings - consider spartan, bohemian & vandal for examples.

gothic architecture is beautiful. and the goths taking down the roman empire was great. they were horribly treated by the romans anyways so the romans got what was coming to them.

but yeah, i've been called a goth before, mostly by people who have never met me in person, as i tend to dress rather colourfully...
but yeah, i dunno, i suppose enjoying the macabre and being an intellectual get people thinking you're a goth.

I am offended by Goths, they took my ancestors name and turned it into a club of wusses.

I laugh at goths. Each time I see one of these people I chuckle in my head, and sneer at their bloody arms, which swing in full sight, as if to intentionally catch everyone's eye.. to make people have pity for such a lowly cutter..

Everysingle goth I have met has been just like the others: loud, annoying, whiny and reek of strange smells that I cannot identify.

There is an overabundance of these people around.. alot of them strutting around in their 80's wear, looking as if they own the place.. My eyes burn when I see them, I look away and giggle in a manner that would put a school-girl to shame.

Being a "goth" is a trend, atleast around here it is. I'd like to see this new trend/sub-culture wither away and die in the abyss with all those other fads in the past.. all those horrific.. terrible fads.

:)

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!


10. Satan represents exclamation points instead of periods!

i don't know, but every time i see a goth girl i'm tempted to say something to the effect of "damn, look at the flying buttress on that girl." sadly, nobody would get it.

i don't know, but every time i see a goth girl i'm tempted to say something to the effect of "damn, look at the flying buttress on that girl." sadly, nobody would get it.

LOL - that's actually very funny. :)

this is off topic but the goths were the europeans who fought the romans, they were berskers and I have a line I am proud to say has some in them, goths tend to have a more negative out-look on life in my exxpericnes but they are only pessimists and I don't mind that a bit.

i don't know, but every time i see a goth girl i'm tempted to say something to the effect of "damn, look at the flying buttress on that girl." sadly, nobody would get it.

The Flying Buttress is a nice addition to any piece of architecture.


this is off topic but the goths were the europeans who fought the romans, they were berskers and I have a line I am proud to say has some in them, goths tend to have a more negative out-look on life in my exxpericnes but they are only pessimists and I don't mind that a bit.

The berserkers were Vikings and not Goths

Goth is bad cause they got their little black clothes arse in my way.

Theres this one girl that wears eyeshadow that goes down to her mouth (looks like the crow) She angers me. Little punk thinks she owns the place. That's my job!

Mmmm. That's another thing I'd forgotten about. A lot of the goths I meet cut themselves, all over their arms, and then they show it off. I hate that. It pisses me off that they'd mutilate themselves to make out that they're suffering from some deep, dark, internal agony. It pisses me off worse that they'd show off that they cut themselves. If they were serious, they'd do it right and spare us the melodrama. It's down the street, kiddies, not across it.

10. Satan represents exclamation points instead of periods!

Quit associating us with Goths.

*Hell we are both rednecks, and the is one around whos a yankee.*

*And one is/was a nazi and I am not.*

Some people describe me as a goth. I don't know if they're right or not, I've never bothered to decide what I "am." I just call myself a weirdo and leave it at that. I know what people mean about the poseur goths though. They annoy the hell out of me when I think about them, so I try not to. Most of the "goths" I know are just nice, very odd, kinda artsy-fartsy type people. Great company.

i think goths are cute like sad little puppies, i just want to pat their black spikey little heads and tell them their so sweel looking.

Hah! They always make me chuckle, and then lurch into a speech about how popular culture has transformed...blah, blah, blah.

When ever I hear gothic on the other hand I always think of Mary Shelly, and her seminal Frankenstein. Which bores me to tears.

1. Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence!
2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!
5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!
6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!
7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!
8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
9. Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years!

Heh, satanism does allow worshipping

Oh, and i'm Atheist =) I've heard from somewhere that LaVey made the satanic bible as a joke? Is that true?

Actually, it's worse than that. LaVey Publically said that he created the Church of Satanism to cheat taxes. He was a somewhat intelligent man, and knew how to fool people to do what he wanted to piss off the Catholic Church. The entire LaVeyist Church of Satanism was nothing more than a Hedonistic orgy directed to really get at the Catholics. It worked...it worked well. All that philosophy was pretty much explaining that Man is an animal, and should revert to being like what he truly is, a carnivorous predator.

However, Modern Satanism, has nothing really to do with Satan. It has nothing to do with Western Monotheism (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) at all. Satan is merely the name of a representation of a natural force that has always existed. It is this force which drives all natural instincts in the human animals. But there are so many sects of Satanism today (Stella Tenebrarum, Temple of Set, etc., etc.) that it'd be all week before I could get that much information from my papers.

--------------------

Onto the task at hand:

"Hot Topic" has effectively commercialized all American "Goth" and "Punk" movements. Blame them for what the kids are wearing and listening to, though it doesn't help that MTV jumped on this Nu-Metal and Power Punk Vibe either.

As far as my experience with the sub-culture goes, none of them (most are over 20) really give a shit about American music at all. They ignore what is released. I, too, have this opinion. They enjoy European Bands, because it was Europe that invented Metal (giving Norway the Grand Trophy as First Metal Band! GO NORWAY!). Euro-Metal is the true way for those I have met, with Therion, My Dying Bride, Ecstatic Fear being favorites of mine. The ever-present Dimmu Borgir vs. Cradle of Filth battle of supremacy (though I have high expectations for CoF's new CD Nymphetamine coming soon).

Then again, most can make fun of the music too (See: Impaled Northern Moon Forest) and know not to take any of it too seriously. Though the actual lyrics of the metal are sometimes hard to understand (when you're not used to the screaming), they're actually pretty well written if you care to read them.

Emotion usually plays a strong role, but it doesn't have to be remose or full of anger. Apathy is just fine.

everyone in a subculture like the goths starts out as a wannabe and everyone is a bit of a poseur. you choose to dress a certain way to make a certain impression. you want people to believe certain things about you by the way you present yourself, and those impressions you want to create are almost never entirely true. everyone is a posuer.


Oh PLEASE!
So far I havent seen a post from anyone who knows what Goth is. All the sniping and catty comments - if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all!
The way i dress is what makes me happy. I dont do it for others, and if others wich to pass comment then its indicative of how dull and boring thier own lives must be. To have an attack at me , are you trying somehow to big yrselves up, feel better about yrselves? You dont really want to even BEGIN to understand what the Gothic Subculture is do you? Its just to take the piss out of anyone who looks abit a different. Well shame on you is all i can say.
I express myself thru my clothes, my friends and the way i try to live my life. Dont be too quick to prejudge, lest the same is done to you. To those out there who think its a just a show and im a poser i say this : " What are YOu passionate about? Anything that DOESNT involve your own pathetic gratification? " Hmm...didnt think so. It takes more guts to get out there and express yrself than to sit behind a computer and try to be smart about something you, frankly, know sod all about!! There will always be people who think looking different is somehow a cause for riducule. Well you lot - carry on. You dont know how much it makes me smile to see you fall over yrselves to sling mud at me....hee hee!

High Priestess & Mother Superior
The Catholic Girls

TCG, I tend to agree with you, to a point.

It seems most people here really don't what the gothic subculture is all about. I must admit, until I started going to gothic clubs with some of my friends, and did some research on the subculture myself, I held pretty ignorant views of what it was all about too.

But for the modern misconceptions, I mainly blame two factors:

1. The media hype and misrepresentation after Columbine, along with some terrible stereotypes of goths in movies and TV shows
2. Hot Topic - basically any disaffected mallrat can play at being a goth now

I'm just curious - some people seem to have a really negative view of goths and the gothic subculture. Is this primarily a reaction to the Columbine incident?

I'm not a goth myself, but I did used to frequent gothic clubs when I was younger, and still have some friends who are right into the scene, and most of them are relatively normal, happy people.

I also think some people have a totally misrepresented mental image of what a goth is - most goths aren't angst ridden teenagers who self mutilate and take guns to school. Most aren't even into pop rock like Marilyn Manson or Evanescence. Of course, EVERY subculture (metalheads, punks, sk8ters, homies etc etc) has it's bad apples and wannabes that make the whole subculture look bad.

What are you opinions on goths? Are there any goths on the forums?

:)


The only good thing gothic is gothic architecture...you have any gothic architects as friends?

Oh PLEASE!
So far I havent seen a post from anyone who knows what Goth is. All the sniping and catty comments - if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all!
The way i dress is what makes me happy. I dont do it for others, and if others wich to pass comment then its indicative of how dull and boring thier own lives must be. To have an attack at me , are you trying somehow to big yrselves up, feel better about yrselves? You dont really want to even BEGIN to understand what the Gothic Subculture is do you? Its just to take the piss out of anyone who looks abit a different. Well shame on you is all i can say.
I express myself thru my clothes, my friends and the way i try to live my life. Dont be too quick to prejudge, lest the same is done to you. To those out there who think its a just a show and im a poser i say this : " What are YOu passionate about? Anything that DOESNT involve your own pathetic gratification? " Hmm...didnt think so. It takes more guts to get out there and express yrself than to sit behind a computer and try to be smart about something you, frankly, know sod all about!! There will always be people who think looking different is somehow a cause for riducule. Well you lot - carry on. You dont know how much it makes me smile to see you fall over yrselves to sling mud at me....hee hee!

High Priestess & Mother Superior
The Catholic Girls


oh fine i'm about as sympathetic as anyone on the thread, and i'm the one who gets quoted in the bitchy rant... :headbang:

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.


THOSE COLUMBINE ASSHOLES WERE GOTHS.

WE'D BE DOING SOICETY A FAVOR IF WE DISPOSED OF THESE PEICES OF HUMAN TRASH.

You'd save a few peoples lives on top of that.

[QUOTE=The Catholic Girls]Oh PLEASE!
So far I havent seen a post from anyone who knows what Goth is. All the sniping and catty comments - if you can't say anything nice then don't say anything at all!
The way i dress is what makes me happy. I dont do it for others, and if others wich to pass comment then its indicative of how dull and boring thier own lives must be. To have an attack at me , are you trying somehow to big yrselves up, feel better about yrselves? You dont really want to even BEGIN to understand what the Gothic Subculture is do you? Its just to take the piss out of anyone who looks abit a different. Well shame on you is all i can say.
I express myself thru my clothes, my friends and the way i try to live my life. Dont be too quick to prejudge, lest the same is done to you. To those out there who think its a just a show and im a poser i say this : " What are YOu passionate about? Anything that DOESNT involve your own pathetic gratification? " Hmm...didnt think so. It takes more guts to get out there and express yrself than to sit behind a computer and try to be smart about something you, frankly, know sod all about!! There will always be people who think looking different is somehow a cause for riducule. Well you lot - carry on. You dont know how much it

actually, the retarded MTV/Hot Topic Goth subculture has infiltrated and taken over your group. Hate to say it.

And TCG, I am issuing an edict that you learn to type.

And technically, everything a person can be passionate about results in self-gratification, unless that is, you don't enjoy doing something your a passionate about, which I can't even wrap my mind around

The only good thing gothic is gothic architecture...you have any gothic architects as friends?

too late, i already mentioned flying buttresses back a few posts. i win.

i don't know, but every time i see a goth girl i'm tempted to say something to the effect of "damn, look at the flying buttress on that girl." sadly, nobody would get it.
Most goth girls remind me of gargoyles.

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.


THOSE COLUMBINE ASSHOLES WERE GOTHS.

WE'D BE DOING SOICETY A FAVOR IF WE DISPOSED OF THESE PEICES OF HUMAN TRASH.

You'd save a few peoples lives on top of that.


Actually, the columbine guys were neo-nazis, not goths. all the goths I know are very liberal. and none are satanists. most are atheists. one is a pagan.

Goths are bitter apathetic creatures, who have sympathy for nothing except themselves. Personally I hate their guts. They have hatred that is directed against soicety as a whole.
They think they are being "non-conformist" but really they're just conforming to the Gothic Santansim. The worst thing yet is the rise of
"Christian Goths" and "Fat Goths".

All you Goths out their I just got on thing to say to you:

QUIT WHINING YOU LITTLE MOANING BITCHES.


THOSE COLUMBINE ASSHOLES WERE GOTHS.

WE'D BE DOING SOICETY A FAVOR IF WE DISPOSED OF THESE PEICES OF HUMAN TRASH.

You'd save a few peoples lives on top of that.

LOL - I'm guessing you've never personally met a goth, or had any social interaction with them? You quote media hype almost line and verse...

For the whole Columbine analogy - don't be ridiculous. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian - by your logic, that means that all Christians are mass murdering bomb-makers...:p

Most goth girls remind me of gargoyles.Goth girls remind me of, well, Girls.

LOL - I'm guessing you've never personally met a goth, or had any social interaction with them? You quote media hype almost line and verse...

For the whole Columbine analogy - don't be ridiculous. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian - by your logic, that means that all Christians are mass murdering bomb-makers...:p

and speaking from 36 years of experience, there have always been fat goths... lol

Considering alllllll the different definitons of goth, it is statistically likely that at least one of them would have enough people hating it to turn it into an insult.

You know, when people go, "F*** off you Goth" they don't mean "go away you person who wears black a lot" or "go away you mildly depressed person wearing mascara" or any number of wide varieties. They generally mean "go away you (quote) LITTLE MOANING BITCHES (quote)"

I know a guy who dresses in black and has black-dyed hair and gothic jewelry, and he's not particularly depressed. Then again i know a girl who would totally fit the goth description if only she ever wore black. I once got called a goth while wearing black, and I listen to a lot of music that can be termed goth eg evanescence (but not marilyn manson)

Stop generalising and move on. Sif anyone feels insulted when you call them a goth anyway.

Goth girls remind me of, well, Girls.
i've always liked goth girls, cuz back in the 80s most goth guys were gay and the few punk girls were ugly so punks guys main dating options were goths girls, or slumming trendies, and i wasn't pretty enough to get the latter.

i've always liked goth girls, cuz back in the 80s most goth guys were gay and the few punk girls were ugly so punks guys may dating options were goths girls, or slumming trendies, and i wasn't pretty enough to get the latter.

Meh. Most poeple, including NSers wouldn't know pretty if it came up and bit them on the Ass anyway.

Actually, the columbine guys were neo-nazis, not goths.

or at least had latched on to nazi imagery and did it on hitler's birthday.

I don't like goths... (The ones I met)

Although gothic metal is pretty good.

...are you trying somehow to big yrselves up, feel better about yrselves?

By Jove your right! You have finally got to the problem that has been plaguing mankind for years. I suddenly feel as if a curtain across by vision has been turned asunder, thank you for your comment that has no doubt come from years of work studying the human psyche.

May I now recommend a word processor program such as Microsoft Word, aside from it’s built in ability to make black text on white pages (a fact that will appeal to you no doubt endlessly) it also spell checks, turning such typographical blunders as ‘yrselves’ to ‘yourselves’.

I wonder did you suddenly wake up one ‘sunny’ morn and say “Why, wouldn’t it be good if I dressed head to toe in black? It’s sure going to do wonders for my emotional wellbeing, and it is sure to make instantly likeable. Plus I will finally be the butt of all those buttress jokes which I have been only able to observe hitherto”? Seriously, my attempt at humour aside, what drove you down this path?

Ummmm....the late 90's-01

Ummmm....the late 90's-01

Hmm?

Meh. Most poeple, including NSers wouldn't know pretty if it came up and bit them on the Ass anyway.

Some of the most beautiful and sexy girls I've met have been goth girls.

I'm guessing most poeple who seem to find them so horrendous prefer silicon breasted plastic Barbie dolls like Pam Anderson...

WELL. I'm not a goth, never was, never will be, personal choice. I don't particularly care for learning the dictum of that particular subculture, but I certainly lost respect for "Goths" when some of my fellow classmates back in yonder years of middle school decided to start screaming their grievances, which in my community, were really small in the grand scheme of things. It was an excuse to do things that society deems unacceptable and generally be unhappy.