NationStates Jolt Archive

Thats it ive heard to many people claim its true so go on here is your only chance to proove it..

(this should be interesting)



No flaming PLEASE

you cannot prove the existance of god, nor disprove him, that's what faith is, believing without seeing. now there is evidence to support the existance of god, but that doesn't count. if you'd like the evidence i can give you that, but as for proof, well, then it's not really faith then, is it?

you cannot prove the existance of god, nor disprove him, that's what faith is, believing without seeing. now there is evidence to support the existance of god, but that doesn't count. if you'd like the evidence i can give you that, but as for proof, well, then it's not really faiththen, is it?


Yep thats because its all based on fantasy (look up the meaning if you disagree) and people beleiving this fantasy.

Let the sheep believe what they want to believe.

Just because you can't see something doesnt mean it does not exist.

fantasy shmantasy. do you realise man invented every other god but the god of the christians and jews? i mean, seriously. think about it. my god does not follow the conventional patterns of any other religion or any other diety. my god offers forgiveness. does any other?

Just because you can't see something doesnt mean it does not exist.

No one has seen it though and there is no PROOF to back it up.

I cant see america but it exists because it is there and i know its there to say this for GOD is silly because he isnt anywhere and hasnt been and nothing can proove he was.

I know God exists (how I know would be a much much longer post), so as far as it is concerned yours is the burden of proof. Prove to me that God doen't exist (and you can't say things like "because there is so much injustice and suffering in the world" because maybe you don't understand the nature of God or why He might allow that sort of stuff). :)

Have you even considered what "god" is, Camdean? Could it be, POSSIBLY, that god isn't a literal figure sitting on throne up in the clouds? Could it be POSSIBLE that god is a concept -- a feeling of love -- and that heaven is a state of mind.. a feeling? Could it be possible that god is only what you shape him to be? Does it need to be a literal concept?

No one has seen it though and there is no PROOF to back it up.

I cant see america but it exists because it is there and i know its there to say this for GOD is silly because he isnt anywhere and hasnt been and nothing can proove he was.

You haven't seen me and I haven't seen you. Do you or I not exist?

I cant see america but it exists because it is there and i know its there to say this for GOD is silly because he isnt anywhere and hasnt been and nothing can proove he was.

Why can't this be applied to god? Or anything spiritual for that matter? your defence makes no sense as it contradicts itself.

Philosophy has battled it out over this topic for hundreds of years. No one has ever made a completely solid case for or against. Personally, I care less. It is a belief, one which cannot be disproven or proven and therefore is inapplicable to science.

I know God exists (how I know would be a much much longer post), so as far as it is concerned yours is the burden of proof. Prove to me that God doen't exist (and you can't say things like "because there is so much injustice and suffering in the world" because maybe you don't understand the nature of God or why He might allow that sort of stuff). :)

1. I havent seen no angels eyes

2. I havent seen GOD and no one has

3. Its a fantasy beyond comprehension you could make up stuff all day if its fantasy and claim its true because you cant proove it is.

And id like to hear your proof of why you beleive GOD exists

Science is highly over rated (it once said that he world was flat too).

I know God exists (how I know would be a much much longer post), so as far as it is concerned yours is the burden of proof. Prove to me that God doen't exist (and you can't say things like "because there is so much injustice and suffering in the world" because maybe you don't understand the nature of God or why He might allow that sort of stuff). :)
Actually the burden of proof lies on the one who alleges that god DOES exist, not that he doesn't. Otherwise, it would be up to YOU to prove that there is not an invisible green goblin sitting on your shoulder (or any number of other ridiculous things I can make up).

You haven't seen me and I haven't seen you. Do you or I not exist?

You just posted and ive seen you post before we are physical beings on this planet.

Science is highly over rated (it once said that he world was flat too).
And it was science that proved that theory incorrect. That is the beauty of science. It tests its own ideals and revises when needed.

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....

And some people have claimed to have an interaction with god -- and it doesn't have to be literal or physical either.

I know God exists (how I know would be a much much longer post), so as far as it is concerned yours is the burden of proof. Prove to me that God doen't exist (and you can't say things like "because there is so much injustice and suffering in the world" because maybe you don't understand the nature of God or why He might allow that sort of stuff). :)

Beautiful, couldnt put it better.

Actually the burden of proof lies on the one who alleges that god DOES exist, not that he doesn't. Otherwise, it would be up to YOU to prove that there is not an invisible green goblin sitting on your shoulder (or any number of other ridiculous things I can make up).

Exactly if someone said there were aliens in rome right now they would have to proove it, if someone was claiming to hold your child in their womb they would have to proove it, if someone was claiming they could eat a submarine they would have to proove it before it was TRUE

You prove God doesn't exist.

I await some solid proof not just quick remarks trying to somewhat blurr the topic

Actually the burden of proof lies on the one who alleges that god DOES exist, not that he doesn't. Otherwise, it would be up to YOU to prove that there is not an invisible green goblin sitting on your shoulder (or any number of other ridiculous things I can make up).

It really doesn't bother me too much that you do not know of God's existance, I mean on certain levels it does because that knowledge makes me happy and might contribute in a possitive way to your life.

Well, to know of God existance.... well to get deep here (in the Christian world), God provides the Holy Ghost to verify His existance to those who seek after Him. I have felt the reassurance of the Holy Ghost let me know that God exists. If you were to make a sincere effort you could too. A verifiable indepentant experiment.... I know that I have felt the Holy Ghost because it is consistant with has been written about other's experiences. No on can tell me that I haven't, though you are free to deny it all you want it doesn't make it not so.

You prove God doesn't exist.

I dont need to because i dont claim to know that he exists and claim to know the truth and claim that i know what lies beyond life before it happens (death)

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....
You should read some of Stephen Hawking's writings then if you want evidence of the Big Bang. He makes a very strong case.

It really doesn't bother me too much that you do not know of God's existance, I mean on certain levels it does because that knowledge makes me happy and might contribute in a possitive way to your life.

Well, to know of God existance.... well to get deep here (in the Christian world), God provides the Holy Ghost to verify His existance to those who seek after Him. I have felt the reassurance of the Holy Ghost let me know that God exists. If you were to make a sincere effort you could too. A verifiable indepentant experiment.... I know that I have felt the Holy Ghost because it is consistant with has been written about other's experiences. No on can tell me that I haven't, though you are free to deny it all you want it doesn't make it not so.


where is the proof in a feeling when you are thinking about an issue like our creator and where we come from it causes strong emotions its not a holly ghost im afraid.

I await some solid proof not just quick remarks trying to somewhat blurr the topic

WHY DOES SOMETHING THAT INVOLVES EMOTION AND SPIRITUAL HOPE HAVE TO HAVE CONCRETE EVIDENCE? Why must something that deals with the emotional aspect of life conflict with the physical aspect of life? Aren't they two separate entities?

You should read some of Stephen Hawking's writings then if you want evidence of the Big Bang. He makes a very strong case.

REligious books make a strong case for God.

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....
1. Science doesn't deal with proof.
2. However, there is plenty of evidence for the Big Bang theory.

Firstly, there is simple extrapolation. We can detect the expansion of the universe, and extrapolating backwards results in the universe being a singularity approximately 13-18 billion years ago. This is the same age as the oldest light in the universe. Secondly, when we look at objects around 13-18 billion light years away, we see certain characteristics. These are the same characteristics that the Big Bang Theory predicted would have appeared shortly after the Big Bang.

Camdean: this is a good phrase that you should consider

"Think outside the box."

You should read some of Stephen Hawking's writings then if you want evidence of the Big Bang. He makes a very strong case.


You should read some of C.S. Lewis' writings. He makes a very strong case that God exists to.

The simple fact is neither sides of this will ever really be proven. And even if one is the other side will still cling to their beliefs.

where is the proof in a feeling when you are thinking about an issue like our creator and where we come from it causes strong emotions its not a holly ghost im afraid.

Like I said, you are free to deny it. But as for what I felt, I am the one that felt it, and I fill it (not all the time but on a regular enough basis). You can call it strong emotions it you want, if it make you feel good, then it is alright for me. What I do know is that we won't find out until after we die, and if I am wrong then I am okay with it because I am living a great life with God in it. If I am right then I am living a great life with God in it, and I am hoping for a great life after death too.

WHY DOES SOMETHING THAT INVOLVES EMOTION AND SPIRITUAL HOPE HAVE TO HAVE CONCRETE EVIDENCE? Why must something that deals with the emotional aspect of life conflict with the physical aspect of life? Aren't they two separate entities?

Like i said thinking about our creator and what lies beyond is what makes these feelings happen i feel it just now and it aint god or a holly ghost and when they are entangled in fantasy it becomes deep.

Like the debate over whether Democrats are superior to Republicans, whether or not God exists will only lead to flaming, because by nature it is a polarizing question; many people are so entrenched in their beliefs that nothing whatsoever will move them. However, I think that there is another reason not to ask the question; whoever asked it I'm guessing is expecting to find a lack of proof for God's existance, and therefore to show that he indeed does not exist. Yet who can argue with the effects on the poeple who believe they have heard God's message? Are not the influences of Christianity, Judaism, and the other major religions in general good ones? If one follows their messages of peace and forgiveness, what does it matter whether their respective gods exist? Regardless of why, any moral and spiritual support in people's lives, influencing them to good, cannot be bad things.

That's not to say that bad things cannot come out of extreme devotion to religion, and oftentimes they do, but is it not better that there be at least some semblence of purpose and self control in people's lives?

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....

Scientific theories are not ment to be 'proven' as in without a doubt. They are ideas that have arisen with a considerable ammount of data pointing in their favor. Doesn't mean it's a bulletproof fact, just the best educated guess we have.

Here's a site I found while looking around the internet. Maybe it'll answer some questions, maybe not.

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html

The simple fact is neither sides of this will ever really be proven. And even if one is the other side will still cling to their beliefs.
Agreed. People believe in what they believe. To each their own I suppose.

Let the sheep believe what they want to believe.


as far as i'm concerned atheists, are sheep...

as far as i'm concerned atheists, are sheep...
How the hell does thinking for oneself make one a "sheep"?

I still await solid proof


And not the old holly ghost chestnut that is the feeling when we think about something so strong.

Like i said thinking about our creator and what lies beyond is what makes these feelings happen i feel it just now and it aint god or a holly ghost and when they are entangled in fantasy it becomes deep.

But that's YOU. That doesn't negate the existence of a god.

Myself? I'm an atheist. I don't get those feelings from religion - but I recognize the positive things that stem from religion. I don't like the way the mainstream religions go about with things. God is supposed to be pure and good and heaven is supposed to be pure happiness. But why the hell do we need to scare people via fear tactics to achieve this? I don't think an all-loving, selfless, perfect creator god wouldn't be vengeful nor jealous nor unforgiving (letting people rot in hell :rolleyes: ). We need to redefine religion in my mind and give it an overhaul.

The idea that having a religious experience that confirms your own personal belief being proof is higly questionable, since it can't be verified, and it goes against monotheist doctrine- after all, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Bhuddists, Jains, Shintoists, Wiccans, Devil Worshippers all have these experiences, as have many others before and many many other will afterwards.

The supernatural entities suggested by every one of these religions is fundamentally untestable, since they have no discernable physical form and exert no reliable, characteristic force under stimuli. We are under no obligation to accept the idea of the existence of any of them without such data. Since the Abrahamic religions have a God who's big on faith, he woouldn't, and consistently doesn't, prove that he exists, Bhuddists have no God, just an absolute diamond geezer who lead a good life. As for the others, I don't have enough knowledge, but all religions tend to emphasise faith, not proof, so don't expect it.

(This goes for both sides) Don't get so pissy about this. It's not as if a forgiving God is going to condemn you for picking the wrong belief system.

Oh well... I respect everyone's opinions. It truely is a hard question that is an individual search.

With our limited 4th demensional thinking we will never know the truth of anything thing by ourselves, scientific or metaphysical. I mean, to know the truth of any one event you would have to witness that event from every perspective, know all the background that lead up to that event, and be able to predict trends with no error.

Another atheist...

Anyway, I do believe that God exists. Not everything in life requires a proof. One needs faith. So, would you say that there's no life on other planets just because you haven't seen it yourself?

Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
-- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy (book one of the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy series), p. 50

If you're looking for a smoking gun to support either evolution, or a deity-created universe, you aren't going to find it. Take the game Life, for example. You know? The modified checkers thing that creates gliders and seems to spawn life? People take that as proof that evolution can happen, but if you think about it, the universe of Life was created. I don't know if there is a god or not.. If there is, though, he/she/it would have to be imperfect to be able to exist. Not a "God's up in a cloud, busy with controlling the universe." type deity. .

I could go into a long explenation of my feelings on this, but no, so ill make it short and simple. God was invented by man. When something couldn't be explained "God" did it. Religons almost all contradict themselvs and others. They say all the others are wrong and we are right. The only real religion I’d actually follow would be Buddhism, that is more about enlightening yourself than scaring others into following them and doing good things because if you don't you go to "hell".

There my opinion, right or wrong, don't matter, thats what i think.

How the hell does thinking for oneself make one a "sheep"?

Stupid generalization. Both of you. I don't think "rejecting god and religion OMG! they're evil and must have concrete physical proof despite god's 'existence' as a spiritual entity"-atheism is anymore valid than "You're going to hell because our perfect, all-loving, mericful, venegeful, jealous, unforgiving, wrathful god decided that you were an inferior individual"-fantacism.

But that's YOU. That doesn't negate the existence of a god.

Myself? I'm an atheist. I don't get those feelings from religion - but I recognize the positive things that stem from religion. I don't like the way the mainstream religions go about with things. God is supposed to be pure and good and heaven is supposed to be pure happiness. But why the hell do we need to scare people via fear tactics to achieve this? I don't think an all-loving, selfless, perfect creator god wouldn't be vengeful nor jealous nor unforgiving (letting people rot in hell :rolleyes: ). We need to redefine religion in my mind and give it an overhaul.


No its me explaining what the holly ghost is as it seems to be one of the proofs behind god and his existence.

Accualy, as you are the one making the assertation that God does not exist, the burden of proof falls on you to disprove it. . . were the author stating that God existed and was attempting to convince you that God existed, then you would be correct, however this assertation was not made thus it is you, not him who is making a claim, and must prove or disprove it through scientific standards. . . otherwise I could simply say that since you can't prove Evolution as truth (I remind you that it is still theory as we are not able to watch the entirety of the universe from begining to end to witness creatures evolving, thus it is and will remain a theory untill it become scientific law by having undisputable, solid, conclusive and reviewable proof, which will be millions of years in the future) then creationism is right, and since you can't prove it, then my conclusion is right reguardless.

Ive seen proof of evolution a new breed of spider was found in scotland that evolved recently it doesnt spin a web anymore it just jumps straight on its enemy even though the web is one of the strongest materials known to man (natuaral) it evolved to breed and last longer.

:headbang: It doesn't take an idiot to believe in God! They've found the ruins of Jericho. They've found evidence that disproves evolution and all other religions. There's more evidence for Christianity than anything else. How could the cells just make up their mind that they would make a human, much less a dinosaur. Unless you are blind to the evidence, then begin believing! If you don't believe me, here's a great website for you- www.answersingenesis.com. Besides, you can't deny history; why would millions die for something that was false all along?

:headbang: It doesn't take an idiot to believe in God! They've found the ruins of Jericho. They've found evidence that disproves evolution and all other religions. There's more evidence for Christianity than anything else. How could the cells just make up their mind that they would make a human, much less a dinosaur. Unless you are blind to the evidence, then begin believing! If you don't believe me, here's a great website for you- www.answersingenesis.com. Besides, you can't deny history; why would millions die for something that was false all along?

The truth would be because they beleived in it mate weither it was true or not.

And evolution as i said is REAL and has been proven

Accualy, as you are the one making the assertation that God does not exist, the burden of proof falls on you to disprove it. . .

The title of the thread is God = Proove it. This construction in no way implies that God does or does not exist, regardless of the personal beliefs of the writer. The stated objective of the thread is to provide a place to submit proof, by which one means evidence, not witnesses, who can be notoriously unreliable, regardless of religion.


I'm thinking these two links are relevant:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame85.html
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame37.html

Brain in a vat = prove it.

You cannot prove that we are not a brain in a vat nor can we prove that we are, but that does not keep you from thinking we are not.

Five Minute skeptical hypothesis = prove it.

You cannot prove that the world was not created five minutes ago (you can actually use any amount of time) and that you were not just programmed to believe that everything you currently think has happened has happened. You also cannot disprove this, but this does not keep you from thinking that the world was not created five minutes ago.

Dream skeptical hypothesis = prove it.

You cannot prove or disprove that the world we are currently living in an seeing is just a dream. This does not keep us from thinking that we live in reality and not in a dream.

You ask us to prove the exist of God, I ask you to prove these theories. Until you can prove or disprove any of them (which has not been done by any philosophers since these skeptical hypotheses have been proposed), do not say you can disprove the existance of God, because you cannot and never will be able to.

The title of the thread is God = Proove it. This construction in no way implies that God does or does not exist, regardless of the personal beliefs of the writer. The stated objective of the thread is to provide a place to submit proof, by which one means evidence, not witnesses, who can be notoriously unreliable, regardless of religion.


I'm thinking these two links are relevant:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame85.html
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame37.html


Just plain simple proof mate like evolutionial proof that is happening on this planet

ok one thing i am by no means christian and i refuse to believe anything that cant be proved, yet i believe in the existence or at least previous existence of a divine being several facts supportthe claim made by Stephen hawkings
1 The existence of dark matter did not start till 500 000 years ago, when the universe was falling in to blue shift, then it reversed due to the introduction of dark matter. There is no explanation for this but divine intervention
2 studies done on the human brain the "god" centre which enables us to have religious or quasi religious experiences. basically it makes no sense for it not to work because nature doesnt make useless organs :)
3 Evolution has a purpose, something somewhere decided that when earth was seeded with life, however it was [most likely a meteor] that as carbon based life forms we would evolve in to something human, this would happen on any world.
4 i however strongly disagree with anyone that states that god built us as we are now and that crap and millions dying for something false...soo your saying the NAzi's died for something true cause millions of them died for it? umm simply put the bible is total bunk...but god is not

Stupid generalization. Both of you. I don't think "rejecting god and religion OMG! they're evil and must have concrete physical proof despite god's 'existence' as a spiritual entity"-atheism is anymore valid than "You're going to hell because our perfect, all-loving, mericful, venegeful, jealous, unforgiving, wrathful god decided that you were an inferior individual"-fantacism.
I was thinking that he was trying to pull the "you're-an-atheist-because-its-cool" card. As stupid as that is, I've seen plenty of people do that and they almost always start out like he did.

Brain in a vat = prove it.

You cannot prove that we are not a brain in a vat nor can we prove that we are, but that does not keep you from thinking we are not.

Five Minute skeptical hypothesis = prove it.

You cannot prove that the world was not created five minutes ago (you can actually use any amount of time) and that you were not just programmed to believe that everything you currently think has happened has happened. You also cannot disprove this, but this does not keep you from thinking that the world was not created five minutes ago.

Dream skeptical hypothesis = prove it.

You cannot prove or disprove that the world we are currently living in an seeing is just a dream. This does not keep us from thinking that we live in reality and not in a dream.

You ask us to prove the exist of God, I ask you to prove these theories. Until you can prove or disprove any of them (which has not been done by any philosophers since these skeptical hypotheses have been proposed), do not say you can disprove the existance of God, because you cannot and never will be able to.

What have these theories got to do with if GOD exists really though ?

Turning away yet again to another of stage topic involving some riddle to cover up doubt of beleif.

Saying "everyone needs faith" is a matter of equivication.

No one knows anything for certain, but there is an obvious difference between believing the Sun will rise the next day and believing in a god. Stephen Hawking has a reliable mathetmatical basis for his theories as well as reproducible scientifc evidence, theists do not.

t doesn't take an idiot to believe in God! They've found the ruins of Jericho.

Assuming this is true, what does that prove? Max Payne takes place in New York. New York exists, but does that make Max Payne real?


They've found evidence that disproves evolution and all other religions.
There's more evidence for Christianity than anything else.


No, they have not.


How could the cells just make up their mind that they would make a human, much less a dinosaur.


You are obviously ignorant of what the theory of evolution actually is. Please do some actual research on it instead of just reading what creationist sites tell you. Try seeing what actual scientists have to say and why they don't seem to be abandoning evolution.

I suspect you do not understand the scientifc method or how science works. I would suggest researching that as well to see why science has been so successful.


Unless you are blind to the evidence, then begin believing! If you don't believe me, here's a great website for you- www.answersingenesis.com.


Creationist arugments have been shown fallicious time and time again (www.talkorigins.org). Don't be fooled. Creationism is not science.


Besides, you can't deny history; why would millions die for something that was false all along?


Try asking the Islamic terrorists whose religion you claim to have disproved.

For all the replies i have seen there hasnt been 1 inch of proof for god existing and ive had a mail sent to me ..

Here is what it said (i worded it wrong the first time)

EDIT :-

The Right-Wing State of Keblukistan:-
have fun in hell athiest.

Of course God exists. I know because he speaks to me every night and tells me to go out and kill women.
I've already killed four.
He rewards me with pretty colours and lovely music in my head.

Just plain simple proof mate like evolutionial proof that is happening on this planet

Actually, even if you believe in Creation as told in Genesis, God could have put the capacity for mutation in the genes and "falsified" the fossil record. The nature of God as told by Abrahamic religions is such that it is practically impossible to disprove hir existence.

Genesis actually supports some elements of evolution, such as mutation. We know that inbreeding causes mutations that impair offspring, Genesis teaches that we originated from one breeding pair. The ages at death of Adam, Noah and Abraham, and many others, as given in the Book of Genesis support the theory that humanity as it is today is weaker than it was at its begining, inferring mutation and recessive genes.

This is comparable to the poodle: the big, butch hunting dog off bygone centuries, compared to the weak little pussy of today, which is linked to the inbreeding of the species.

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....

you can not prove the big bang theory, neither can you prove the fact that creation by God was true. They are both models. To prove scientifically you would have to be able to recreate either one in the laboratory., which is impossible. so either side you take you must put your faith in that model.

Of course God exists. I know because he speaks to me every night and tells me to go out and kill women.
I've already killed four.
He rewards me with pretty colours and lovely music in my head.


How ever amusing this was please stay on the TOPIC -->

Hey, how about the undecaying bodies of saints. I forget the name for it, but if you need proof of the existence of God, how about that? There's a few Saints whose bodies have not decayed for the centuries since their deaths..Of course, there's the miracles at Lords/Guatalupe(Especially Guatalupe-the rag should've deteriorated, much less the image). Even though such things can't convince you all by yourself, they should turn your head. As a friend of mine once said to a teacher, "You can't teach me anything if I don't want to learn." If you don't want to believe, nothing can make you. Don't get me wrong. I'm not overly religion. I'm jus' sayin'..

haha Well i prefer agnostic myself but yeah, i remember one conversation with a "christian", who didnt even know that jesus called himself the son of man, and wasnt even a virgin birth, they refused to believe the records of the day, see jesus was supposed to be the messiah however....mary and joseph, being human couldnt wait. Therefore he was not touched by Jehovah, but by another god whom jehova had dealings with [someone thought weak its messed] cause you see...christianity as we know it or judaism if you look back 12000 years when it started was imply the cult of jupiter/zeus/marduk see all of those religions come from the worship of tribes...ie bible got it wrong. in fact judaism comes from Russian
By the way i am a majour history and theological buff, got awards on getting facts straight soooo yeah.
I wont disprove god cause i cant, but I WILL disprove the bible, as it is simply a story book to guide us to be good to each other, not a true fact based account.

Hey, how about the undecaying bodies of saints. I forget the name for it, but if you need proof of the existence of God, how about that? There's a few Saints whose bodies have not decayed for the centuries since their deaths..Of course, there's the miracles at Lords/Guatalupe(Especially Guatalupe-the rag should've deteriorated, much less the image). Even though such things can't convince you all by yourself, they should turn your head. As a friend of mine once said to a teacher, "You can't teach me anything if I don't want to learn." If you don't want to believe, nothing can make you. Don't get me wrong. I'm not overly religion. I'm jus' sayin'..

Isnt it true that the rag is nothing more than an immitation and hs been prooved so.

There is a way to store bodies and use chemicals to preserve this like they done.

It has to do with God existing because you say that you there is no prove of the existance of God and that there is also no way to disprove God, but these theories are the same way, and it shows that all you can ever go on is faith. You have to go on faith that God exists, by personal experience one will say they have proof of God...it may be proof to themselves but without the people that they are trying to prove God's existance to having those exact same experiences themselves at the same point in their lives, people have a hard time believing it...because they do not have the faith to believe it. You must have the faith to believe that these theories are wrong...that you are not just a brain in a vat, that you do not live in a dream and that the world was not created five minutes ago just the way you believe you saw it five minutes ago, just like you have to have faith that God exists. If God does not exist, would there be any point at all for us to live, for us to continue on this earth? No, there would not, and I know because there was a time when I did not know myself whether God existed or not, but He has proved Himself to me and I have the faith to belive that He is there, just like I have the faith to believe that those theories, those skeptical hypotheses are wrong. You think it was by chance that this planet has the perfect conditions for life? You think it is an accident that we have this air to breathe each moment? You think it is just a coincidence that you were born and interact with the people you interact with? If so how could everything fit together so perfectly?

You want proof?

Life stands out in this universe and doesn't fit the universal set of physics. there is no chemical or physical reason for cells to eat, and multiply. In falls out of the universe's basic structurue. Furthermore, life doesn't follow the law of (Forgot the name, the law that says everything must go in the simplest form). Only G-d would have created that.

However, i also believe in evolution. I believe we did come from apes, but it was G-d who guided the evolution, not just natural selection. If you read the Torah, or the Bible, G-d almost always masked his actions as natural phenomenon. Adam and Eve, in my belief, were the first apes capable of intelligence. And the forbidden fruit was intelligence.

Finally, Judaism doesn't come from Russia. Judaism came from Abraham first realizing that the errors in polytheism, and figuring out that there is only one, infinately supreme god.

It has to do with God existing because you say that you there is no prove of the existance of God and that there is also no way to disprove God, but these theories are the same way, and it shows that all you can ever go on is faith. You have to go on faith that God exists, by personal experience one will say they have proof of God...it may be proof to themselves but without the people that they are trying to prove God's existance to having those exact same experiences themselves at the same point in their lives, people have a hard time believing it...because they do not have the faith to believe it. You must have the faith to believe that these theories are wrong...that you are not just a brain in a vat, that you do not live in a dream and that the world was not created five minutes ago just the way you believe you saw it five minutes ago, just like you have to have faith that God exists. If God does not exist, would there be any point at all for us to live, for us to continue on this earth? No, there would not, and I know because there was a time when I did not know myself whether God existed or not, but He has proved Himself to me and I have the faith to belive that He is there, just like I have the faith to believe that those theories, those skeptical hypotheses are wrong. You think it was by chance that this planet has the perfect conditions for life? You think it is an accident that we have this air to breathe each moment? You think it is just a coincidence that you were born and interact with the people you interact with? If so how could everything fit together so perfectly?

So if god didnt exist we would be screwed ?

There is no proof to back any of the theories either theories just cant come out the blue with no proof behind them even an inch of proof may be enough but its impossible because its not true..

Faith you say - I have plenty faith in myself in my parents and loved ones and in most of my freinds and most of all i have faith in everything i do as i know the difference between right and wrong. Its the love between us that makes this faith and beleiving in your parents when your young whith love is what teaches us morals.

Still no proof only excuses of why proof cant exist almost making my point so clear

you can not prove the big bang theory, neither can you prove the fact that creation by God was true. They are both models. To prove scientifically you would have to be able to recreate either one in the laboratory., which is impossible. so either side you take you must put your faith in that model.

You would, of course, be wrong. Science is a method of observation. Such observation can be accomplished outside of a laboratory. Computational physics and observed physical phenomena stand as proofs of the big bang theory.

God-driven creation has nothing to do with science and falls within the realm of faith. Believe in creation if you want, but there is not, nor will there ever be, proof of such an event.

Oh, and as a side-note, your phrasing is quite indicative of your bias.

The rag, ehh...last I heard no. Also, yes, you can preserve bodies. Now. With constant room-temperatures or so achieved in a glass box. They did it with Lenin/Stalin. The idea of, however, something existing and not decaying for more than a hundred years without being disinfected, kept at a constant moisture/temperature/etc., however, is a bit conspiracy theorist. We're assuming the world isn't a computer program/etc., however.

Personal experience is obviously problematic. Do you believe all those alien abuctees, ghost sighters or people of other religions?


Conditions for life? We only know of one kind of life: carbon-based. If the conditions weren't suitable for carbon-based life on Earth, we wouldn't exist. Nothing amazing about it.

Humans have this tendancy to see order even when there is none in actuality. Following evolution, it is easy to see we evolved to the conditions of our planet not the other way around. You can also see how "everything fits together so perfectly" as you put it.

By the way this was something said in my philosophy class that really rings true. "God hides himself enough so that people can choose to ignore Him and not see Him, but He reveals himself enough that those that really look for Him and want to know the Truth will find Him and come to know Him."

Just because you will only believe what you want to believe does not mean that God is not there, it just means that you really do not care enough to look for and see Him.

The rag, ehh...last I heard no. Also, yes, you can preserve bodies. Now. With constant room-temperatures or so achieved in a glass box. They did it with Lenin/Stalin. The idea of, however, something existing and not decaying for more than a hundred years without being disinfected, kept at a constant moisture/temperature/etc., however, is a bit conspiracy theorist. We're assuming the world isn't a computer program/etc., however.
Lenin, not stalin

I've got two things to say before I sleep

For one, Wow, my post didn't get shot down by Christians like all the others... yet. Secondly I'd like to say another opinion, I believe in Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, etc. all those men and women who were "human gods". I do not believe they were "godly" but I believe they were inteligent and wise, they tried to guide people on a path, like telling a blind person, "Watch out there is a hole there, come this way". But of course when they died, people, due to the nature of man, stopped "walking down the path", they thought “what if there is hole there? Then ill go this way, but wait what if there is a hole there too?”

The rag, ehh...last I heard no. Also, yes, you can preserve bodies. Now. With constant room-temperatures or so achieved in a glass box. They did it with Lenin/Stalin. The idea of, however, something existing and not decaying for more than a hundred years without being disinfected, kept at a constant moisture/temperature/etc., however, is a bit conspiracy theorist. We're assuming the world isn't a computer program/etc., however.

Independant confirmation? Analyses and possible explanations proposed for this supposed phenomenon?

I haven't heard of the rag, by the way. What is that about?

I'm pretty sure they did it to both-Just, Stalin moved Lenin's corpse when he came into power-Or mayhaps the successors to Stalin just moved Stalin altogether...Though, still..I'm pretty sure they did it to both of them. Still, they did it.

By the way this was something said in my philosophy class that really rings true. "God hides himself enough so that people can choose to ignore Him and not see Him, but He reveals himself enough that those that really look for Him and want to know the Truth will find Him and come to know Him."

Just because you will only believe what you want to believe does not mean that God is not there, it just means that you really do not care enough to look for and see Him.


Care enough to see him LoL i wonder how many people have tried and failed yet the ones who do see him live in filthy rich estates although this trend has lowered.

If God does not exist, would there be any point at all for us to live, for us to continue on this earth?

Some of us think that improving our and humanity's lot in life is a pretty good reason to go on living. There's plenty out there to do, worshipping God isn't the only thing that brings satisfaction.


You think it was by chance that this planet has the perfect conditions for life? You think it is an accident that we have this air to breathe each moment? You think it is just a coincidence that you were born and interact with the people you interact with? If so how could everything fit together so perfectly?

If conditions weren't conducive(they are by no means perfect) to life as we know, life as we know it would not exist and we wouldn't be bitching about it.

If we didn't have the air, we wouldn't be living or bitching about its absence.

Yes, it is a coincidence. The statistics against any one person being born are infinitessimal. The chances that you were born are precisely one(Unless you're here taking the Turing test, in which case, good luck, dude!). If you weren't born, you wouldn't wonder why you weren't.

It doesn't fit together perfectly. Watch the news, go outside the house.

You want proof?

Life stands out in this universe and doesn't fit the universal set of physics. there is no chemical or physical reason for cells to eat, and multiply. In falls out of the universe's basic structurue. Furthermore, life doesn't follow the law of (Forgot the name, the law that says everything must go in the simplest form). Only G-d would have created that.

However, i also believe in evolution. I believe we did come from apes, but it was G-d who guided the evolution, not just natural selection. If you read the Torah, or the Bible, G-d almost always masked his actions as natural phenomenon. Adam and Eve, in my belief, were the first apes capable of intelligence. And the forbidden fruit was intelligence.

Finally, Judaism doesn't come from Russia. Judaism came from Abraham first realizing that the errors in polytheism, and figuring out that there is only one, infinately supreme god.

You mean the law of parsimony/occam's razor? It doesn't state that the simplest has to be right..
It just means that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable and that an explanation for unknown phenomena should first be attempted in terms of what is already known..

Then check out the Mazdayasni Zarathushtri religion.. who "allegedly" developed monotheism long before we did. Not saying they did or didn't. It's just interesting.

This has been a good thread thanks for keeping it clean and no flames guys.

Im away to bed its 5 a.m allready LoL

I personally do not believe any one religion is more right, or better than another. I do not believe in God in the least. I think anyone has the right to worship whatever or whomever they see fit to worship. But that's another story. I usually don't go off on this subject, but after reading some of the idiocy here, I've got to say something.

Arguing the existance of God is pointless. From my point of view, all established religions have their bases covered when it comes to arguing, (biting sarcasm mode ON!) espescially Christianity, which gives its believers the ability to make stuff up as they go along when it comes to God.

Me: God doesn't exist because nothing could have created the world in seven days and we have archeological evidence to back it all up.

Nondescript Christian: Well, maybe seven days to God isn't the same as seven days to us!

Me: Is that written in the Bible?

Nondescript Christian: The Bible was written by men who are flawed.

Me: So you're saying that the Bible is flawed?

Nondescript Christian: No, just mankind.

Me: But you just said that the Bible was flawed because it is written by flawed men!!!

Nondescript Christian: But it can't be because the Bible is the word of God!

Me: BUT YOU JUST ADMITTED THAT YOUR RELIGION IS BASED ON A POORLY WRITTEN BOOK! DOESN'T THAT INVALIDATE IT???!!!!

Nondescript Christian: Well...no...

Me: ::HEAD EXPLODES::
(biting sarcasm mode OFF!)

All religions have their zealots who are capable of horribly evil things that go against everything good and decent. Radical fundamentalist Christians/Muslims/Jews/etc...are all idiotic because they feel the need to go killing, hating, and maming each other to prove themselves right on a subject that cannot possibly ever be PROVEN whilst on the mortal coil.

And before anyone comes to me saying "LOL STROUDANIA U R STOOPID GOD RULEZ AND YOU DON'T"....save it. If you want to believe in God, more power to you. If you don't, that's cool too. We all get to find out the truth one day...and sadly we can't report back on it.

::takes an aspirin and a swig of pepto bismol::

I know this exists-I just can't find any references to it. Oh well, I've looked for a while, and can't find a reference to it-Consider it a moot point. The rag is the whole thing of Our Lady of Guatalupe, which is too long of a story for me to want to post. One of the reputed appearances of Mary around the world, this one left a rag behind, a peasants rag with an image of a face on it. I want to say the face of Jesus, but I could be wrong there.

I personally do not believe any one religion is more right, or better than another. I do not believe in God in the least. I think anyone has the right to worship whatever or whomever they see fit to worship. But that's another story. I usually don't go off on this subject, but after reading some of the idiocy here, I've got to say something.......

.....And before anyone comes to me saying "LOL STROUDANIA U R STOOPID GOD RULEZ AND YOU DON'T"....save it. If you want to believe in God, more power to you. If you don't, that's cool too. We all get to find out the truth one day...and sadly we can't report back on it.

::takes an aspirin and a swig of pepto bismol::

Ok i lied, one more thing. *Clap Clap Clap*

Ok i lied, one more thing. *Clap Clap Clap*


::takes a bow::

You would, of course, be wrong. Science is a method of observation. Such observation can be accomplished outside of a laboratory. Computational physics and observed physical phenomena stand as proofs of the big bang theory.

God-driven creation has nothing to do with science and falls within the realm of faith. Believe in creation if you want, but there is not, nor will there ever be, proof of such an event.

Oh, and as a side-note, your phrasing is quite indicative of your bias.


God-driven Creation has everything to do with science. the differences lie in our presupositions, i myself believe the world was created by the supernatural (God) whereas most evolutionist would believe in a more naturalistic (nature comes form nature) standpoint.

I know this exists-I just can't find any references to it. Oh well, I've looked for a while, and can't find a reference to it-Consider it a moot point. The rag is the whole thing of Our Lady of Guatalupe, which is too long of a story for me to want to post. One of the reputed appearances of Mary around the world, this one left a rag behind, a peasants rag with an image of a face on it. I want to say the face of Jesus, but I could be wrong there.


You're probably referring to the Shroud of Turin, a relic kept by the Catholic church in the Vatican. They claim it is the cloth used to wipe Jesus' face while he was on the cross, but it is clearly a fake because the art style is indicitive of the middle ages. The face on the shroud doesn't even look even remotely like a realistic human face.

Something for all you who like to come up with reasons why my reasoning is flawed.

Prove to me that this thread you are reading is real. That the computer in front of you is really there. That you are really here.

None of this, "I see it, so it has to be there," because you know what, our senses are often wrong. We imagine we see things that are not really there. We imagine we hear things that are not really there. Sometimes we even feel things that are not really there. If you not prove 100% that these things exist (which you really cannot do, trust me, philosophy at work again), then why believe they exist as well? Why believe anything is real? I mean, people with mental disorders honestly believe they see, hear, feel, etc. things are not really there to us, but to them, they are real, just like to us our computers and this forum and this thread are real, but you could not prove that to the people with the mental disorders. You could not prove that at all. Me telling you that you cannot use your senses to prove that these things exist is just like you telling me I cannot use mine to prove that God exists. You might think and feel that these things exist, but feelings are often wrong and your mind can be toyed with, so I tell you that you cannot use those things as part of your proof to prove any of that either, just like you tell me I cannot use these things to prove that God exists. That being said we have left each other with no way to prove anything...without our senses, our feelings or our minds, we cannot prove a thing...and by telling me that I cannot use these things you are denying me the chance to prove that God exists, just like I am denying you the chance to prove that everything you believe exists is real.

Stupid generalization. Both of you. I don't think "rejecting god and religion OMG! they're evil and must have concrete physical proof despite god's 'existence' as a spiritual entity"-atheism is anymore valid than "You're going to hell because our perfect, all-loving, mericful, venegeful, jealous, unforgiving, wrathful god decided that you were an inferior individual"-fantacism.

Trying to describe God in human terms is all but impossible so don't think that you can. I'll give my best guess though. Sin is so horrible to God that under normal circumstances man/woman could never cross that divide that is sin between us and God. But God gave us Jesus, and showing us his infinite mercy, died for our sins so that we can bridge that gap and meet God in heaven. However, Jesus is the only way this gap can be bridged.

As for the fanaticism remark...I've seen so far on this forum remarks about theists and atheists being sheep. In fact, threads like these, even if made in good intentions end up people belittiling each other and their opinions which seems pretty close to flaming to me. Can't both sides just respect each other? This includes if someone gives their opinion on a topic and it involves their religious beliefs we not have phrases like "godless heathen, fanatic, or sheep thrown around."

I still await solid proof


And not the old holly ghost chestnut that is the feeling when we think about something so strong.
__________________
____________________________
Hmmmm.... Time to change my underpants

You await solid bowel movements, as the strained pees your mommy fed you just before night-night time does not allow such a thing.

(( More treasures from Camdean (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/search.php?searchid=79746). ))

Yes Camy,.. it IS time to change your underpants..!

No one has seen it though and there is no PROOF to back it up.

Many believe that they have seen (or at least felt) the divine. As for proof, you can never prove (or disprove) an axiomatic statement.

Actually, even if you believe in Creation as told in Genesis, God could have put the capacity for mutation in the genes and "falsified" the fossil record. The nature of God as told by Abrahamic religions is such that it is practically impossible to disprove hir existence.

I alway like when this line is brought in. Apparently the cretionist's god is OK with lying to us. He created fossils, isotope decay rates, and piles of other evidence that the world is old and the universe older but, it's all just a tet of our faith. And then they call Satan the "Father of Lies."

At any rate, people either believe or can't believe. There are several billion believers in various faiths all equally certain they have the truth and all with the same evidence. The same evidence which is sufficient for them to support their own belief is insufficient to those same people in support of others belief. Those who can't believe view all the evidence as insufficient to warrent a belief.

Personally, I am an agnostic atheist.

Agnostic in that I do not possess any knowledge which proves or disproves for the existance of gods. In fact, I would go so far as to declare myself a militant agnostic as not only do I not know but NEITHER DO YOU! This applies regardless of your beliefs because knowledge is independant of belief.

Atheist in that without evidence I cannot assent to the claim of existence of god(s.) Belief is not a matter of choice, I cannot lie to myself and say yes I believe god(s) exist even though there is nothing indicating such existance. Until there is some evidence I am forced to the conclusion that gods only exist in the same way as faeries, gnomes, jabberwoks and nessie.

Agnostic in that I do not possess any knowledge which proves or disproves for the existance of gods. In fact, I would go so far as to declare myself a militant agnostic as not only do I not know but NEITHER DO YOU! This applies regardless of your beliefs because knowledge is independant of belief.

Atheist in that without evidence I cannot assent to the claim of existence of god(s.) Belief is not a matter of choice, I cannot lie to myself and say yes I believe god(s) exist even though there is nothing indicating such existance. Until there is some evidence I am forced to the conclusion that gods only exist in the same way as faeries, gnomes, jabberwoks and nessie.

But.. Jabberwocks do exist. I just saw one. In the tulgy wood. It burbled.

Ok, I'll stay on the topic!
What is Being?
Now eveything that lives has flaws, would everyone agree? Because everything that lives ages and eventually dies. Everything that exists (suns, planets etc) all follow this. Eventually they will 'die' (for lack of a better world). This Universe we live in will eventually peter out and go dark.
So everything that exists has flaws. Everything that exists dies.
Nothing is perfect. Because as soon as it exists, it by definition will have flaws (ie it will age and die).
God is perfect.
Therefore God is nothing. Or rather NO-thing.
As soon as we ascribe existence to God, we are by necessity ascribe flaws to Him. This means He cannot be God, which brings up a conundrum.
Or to put it another way:
There most perfect existence surely is one without flaws and without death. This can only be thought of as the opposite as to what we have now. The opposite of Being is Non-Being. Existence is not perfection. Absolute purity (i.e absolute perfection) consists of Non-Being. It follows that the greatest perfection of God would consist of His Non-Existence.
Thinking of Him (being able to think of Him) as existing would be the effect of our shortcomings, capable of sullying with the attribution of being what has the supreme right and incredible good-fortune not to exist.

Something for all you who like to come up with reasons why my reasoning is flawed.

Prove to me that this thread you are reading is real. That the computer in front of you is really there. That you are really here.

None of this, "I see it, so it has to be there," because you know what, our senses are often wrong. We imagine we see things that are not really there. We imagine we hear things that are not really there. Sometimes we even feel things that are not really there. If you not prove 100% that these things exist (which you really cannot do, trust me, philosophy at work again), then why believe they exist as well? Why believe anything is real? I mean, people with mental disorders honestly believe they see, hear, feel, etc. things are not really there to us, but to them, they are real, just like to us our computers and this forum and this thread are real, but you could not prove that to the people with the mental disorders. You could not prove that at all. Me telling you that you cannot use your senses to prove that these things exist is just like you telling me I cannot use mine to prove that God exists. You might think and feel that these things exist, but feelings are often wrong and your mind can be toyed with, so I tell you that you cannot use those things as part of your proof to prove any of that either, just like you tell me I cannot use these things to prove that God exists. That being said we have left each other with no way to prove anything...without our senses, our feelings or our minds, we cannot prove a thing...and by telling me that I cannot use these things you are denying me the chance to prove that God exists, just like I am denying you the chance to prove that everything you believe exists is real.


I'm not going to call you wrong, its a matter of human perception. If you want to believe in a God, feel free. If you don't, feel free. But my opinion is that we have to rise above it all and say, "Well, we've all got our views and beliefs, but why do we feel the need to get into the proverbial urination contest over it all?"

We CAN have unity on the subject of religion, its just that both sides of the issue are going to have to give a little and stop trying to prove that their side is right and, in the words of the Beatles, let it be...and worry about more important and pressing issues of our species.

Science adopts a methodological naturalism by definintion. Simply because supernatural explanations fail to actually explain anything. They can accommodate what we observe, saying goddidit brings us no further in understanding how it happens. You cannot explain a mystery with a mystery.

Creationism != Science.

God-driven Creation has everything to do with science. the differences lie in our presupositions, i myself believe the world was created by the supernatural (God) whereas most evolutionist would believe in a more naturalistic (nature comes form nature) standpoint.

Actually, you guys are both wrong.

Science studies the world around us, where it has been, and tries to predict where it is going. It does so with the viewpoint that, in order simply observe and explain the way the world works, god does not need to be factored in. Science does not make any distinctiona about whether or not there is a god. If there is an omnipotent deity, it by definition exists outside the realm of the physical laws of the universe, so science need not concern itself with god.

As for God-driven creation, if you mean Creationism - there is no scientific method and therefore it is not science. If you mean the belief that a deity put into place the laws of the universe and occasionally intervenes, that is a statement of faith, but still has nothing to do with science.

Ok, I'll stay on the topic!
What is Being?
Now eveything that lives has flaws, would everyone agree? Because everything that lives ages and eventually dies. Everything that exists (suns, planets etc) all follow this. Eventually they will 'die' (for lack of a better world). This Universe we live in will eventually peter out and go dark.
So everything that exists has flaws. Everything that exists dies.
Nothing is perfect. Because as soon as it exists, it by definition will have flaws (ie it will age and die).
God is perfect.
Therefore God is nothing. Or rather NO-thing.
As soon as we ascribe existence to God, we are by necessity ascribe flaws to Him. This means He cannot be God, which brings up a conundrum.
Or to put it another way:
There most perfect existence surely is one without flaws and without death. This can only be thought of as the opposite as to what we have now. The opposite of Being is Non-Being. Existence is not perfection. Absolute purity (i.e absolute perfection) consists of Non-Being. It follows that the greatest perfection of God would consist of His Non-Existence.
Thinking of Him (being able to think of Him) as existing would be the effect of our shortcomings, capable of sullying with the attribution of being what has the supreme right and incredible good-fortune not to exist.

Whoah, you just totally blew my mind there

As for God non-being. Just an idea but God (and where we go after death) are probably a whole different state that we cannot possibly comprehend or categorize in either two. Its even better talking about this sort of thing drunk :D

God-driven Creation has everything to do with science. the differences lie in our presupositions, i myself believe the world was created by the supernatural (God) whereas most evolutionist would believe in a more naturalistic (nature comes form nature) standpoint.
The differences lie in your lack of understanding of scientific method. By starting out with faith-based assumptions that can not be supported by observation you remove yourself from the realm of science. Period.

I still think everyone here is thinking far too hard. :p

I still think everyone here is thinking far too hard. :p

Its fun though, worth the headaches :D

I still think everyone here is thinking far too hard. :pHeh. My original thought of the thread was... If there was a God, Camdean would spell better. ;)

Cthulhu loathes you.

Wowie! Another topic founded by knowlegde, respect, and an open mind! Gee, I would expect all the following posts to include the same!


(prove that I am wearing black boxers, topic poster...am I lying or am I telling the truth?)

Heh. My original thought of the thread was... If there was a God, Camdean would spell better. ;)

Or maybe God's just punishing his atheist brain with bad spelling skills ;)
[humor] as in not to be taken seriously.

Discussions that'll get deep like these need some fun in them too. Or else we'll find that we've grown old rather quickly from being too serious all the time.

Honestly..
Why does it matter?
If you have faith, that's wonderful. If you don't, that's wonderful, too.
People grasp at straws for proof of the unexplainable. That's why we have the Weekly World News. In the end, it doesn't matter. Reality is relative. Move on. No matter how big an ass you make of yourself, no matter how convincing your arguement, you aren't going to convince someone who doesn't already believe it. You really shouldn't try, either. Simply leave each other alone. Be content in the knowledge that the heathens are all going to hell, or that the Religious Nuts are in for a big surprise when they die.
Until the UFO's come and take us all away.

Colodia: I don't think anybody wants to know what your wearing. There are chat rooms and 900 numbers for that sort of thing perv :D

It is hard to prove something that exists beyond what we can conceive true, especialy if you have never even tasted of it, but we do know this much as certain. That around 2000 years ago a man existed under the name of Jesus the Nazerine, we also know that an enormous amount of people, then and now, have been influenced by this man. Now, many people believe that he was also God, something rather hard to prove outsode from accounts of people who were on the "inside" on the whole deal, but something about this man was special enough to create an enormous amount of responce among the people, a huge responce, someting that would make people drasticly change themselves and gladly die rather than deny. These days it is very hard, I'm sad to admit, to believe in such a being as they claim, because people like you cannot see the extreme faith or devotion that was so clearly shown in the early times of extreme persecution. Remember this, the proof is in the fruits or works of the event or man, whether they are good or bad, false or true, however most people never see the works first hand and see no reason to believe, because you cant without at least feeling it or seeing it yourself. In other words you have been told and have not felt, and I dont blame you, I for years up to just recent time had no idea what this faith I had claimed my entire life was about, what it spoke of I knew, but had not felt and did not understand and therefore I could not fully believe in it. The only proof that will ever satisfy you on this matter is the kind of evidence you find personaly, it was the same for me, but just try to look for it okay?

Colodia: I don't think anybody wants to know what your wearing. There are chat rooms and 900 numbers for that sort of thing perv :D
oh hush, you know you wanna :D

Honestly..
Why does it matter?
If you have faith, that's wonderful. If you don't, that's wonderful, too.
People grasp at straws for proof of the unexplainable. That's why we have the Weekly World News. In the end, it doesn't matter. Reality is relative. Move on. No matter how much you big an ass you make of yourself, no matter how convincing your arguement, you aren't going to convince someone who doesn't already believe it. You really shouldn't try, either. Simply leave each other alone. Be content in the knowledge that the heathens are all going to hell, or that the Religious Nuts are in for a big surprise when they die.
Until the UFO's come and take us all away.

I can't really go so far as to say lack of faith is wonderful. I respect people for their convictions but if you don't accept Jesus as your savior then, unfortunately, you will go to hell. Of course I take no joy out of this, in fact I hope they will embrace faith in jesus, and of course I don't go around telling people they are going to hell. But if someone were to ask me if they were going to hell, I would say that according to my beliefs those that do not accept christ cannot meet him in heaven, and that would mean hell. I will not lie about my faith for the sake of political correctness.

..Now, many people believe that he was also God, something rather hard to prove outsode from accounts of people who were on the "inside" on the whole deal, but something about this man was special enough to create an enormous amount of responce among the people..

<super paraphrase action>

Politicians have that effect as well. So do movie stars.
Sometimes I think god-idea isn't popular because of the actions of a messiah, but because of the actions of a religion. Organized Religion can be as bad as politics.

Especially consideing that most organized religion only deals very slimly with god. I find it <religion, of course.> To be mostly about that particular brand of conformity that makes you feel all warm and safe inside.

And lo, didst the Emu say "There is strength in numbers!".

However, it's not necissarily bad to believe, either. Not if it makes you feel good, and you don't infringe upon the personal freedoms of those around you.

Lack of faith is wonderful. To myself, trying to stick God into the natural world cheapens it. Hell is nothing more than the boogeyman to me.

... and Oshirii, you're such an ass. xD

<super paraphrase action>



Especially consideing that most organized religion only deals very slimly with god. I find it <religion, of course.> To be mostly about that particular brand of conformity that makes you feel all warm and safe inside.

.

Thats why I go to a non-denominational church. Where the congregation mostly focuses on God, jesus, and how we relate to them.

I can't really go so far as to say lack of faith is wonderful. I respect people for their convictions but if you don't accept Jesus as your savior then, unfortunately, you will go to hell. Of course I take no joy out of this, in fact I hope they will embrace faith in jesus, and of course I don't go around telling people they are going to hell. But if someone were to ask me if they were going to hell, I would say that according to my beliefs those that do not accept christ cannot meet him in heaven, and that would mean hell. I will not lie about my faith for the sake of political correctness.

That's just what I'm trying to say, though, isn't it? You wouldn't go so far as to say it, and I would. The way we see the matter is different. I sincerely hope that you aren't disappointed in the end.

Lack of faith is wonderful. To myself, trying to stick God into the natural world cheapens it. Hell is nothing more than the boogeyman to me.

... and Oshirii, you're such an ass. xD

Yowch. I have been stabbed with your razor sharp wit! Oh, how it bleeds! ^^

You think it was by chance that this planet has the perfect conditions for life? You think it is an accident that we have this air to breathe each moment? You think it is just a coincidence that you were born and interact with the people you interact with? If so how could everything fit together so perfectly?

Suggest you take a look at the planet more closely.

1. Most of the planet is hostile to our existance.
2. The best suited organism for life on this planet is archeobacteria, they occupy far more of the planet than any other, including deep subsurface locations where our survival is moot.
3. Virii and germs evolve faster than we can combat them but, then again nearly every species on the planet has some attribute which outstrips us in some way. Even the Neanderthal was apparently more intelligent, using tools and creating musical instruments before us. Unfortunately for them, we breed faster and had a more adaptable diet.

In essence, you have it backwards, it was not luck that the planet is a perfect design for us (which it certainly isn't) rather, it is fortunate that we (and our ancestral species) were able to adapt to adapt to the planet.

Thats why I go to a non-denominational church. Where the congregation mostly focuses on God, jesus, and how we relate to them.


Actualy a very good friend of mine in college that I worked out with tonight, Solomon, said he doesn't like the non-denominational denomination, he's going to convert to Baptist like me, but he's afraid of what his mom will say. Me, I dont very much prefer the Baptist over another, although I think it is more correct than most denominations, but I certainly dont agree with all they teach. Religion is a pain, useless realy, I just dont like, its fake and worldly, I believe in a relationship with God, religion is useless pretty much, trying or having to conform to a certain set of beliefs regardless of what you think, another VERY close friend of mine, Rachel, doesn't like her Baptist church because she feels like it is trying to make her conform to what they think. Religion is a road block to a saving relationship, the cerimonies, confuse you, the boarders it puts up, hinders you. One reason why I feel called to be a church planter and not a pastor, so I am emphesize the importance of relationship far over any type of religion. The only way you can prove or truly know God is through a relationship, not religion or facts.

I still await solid proof


And not the old holly ghost chestnut that is the feeling when we think about something so strong.

Camdean, prove you exist. Prove you are a physical human being somewhere, only then will I believe your a real person. Also, how do I know that dingos are real? I've seen pictures, but these may not be dingos, and everyone who talks about them might be lying. Yes, that is the proper way to think...

Camdean, prove you exist. Prove you are a physical human being somewhere, only then will I believe your a real person. Also, how do I know that dingos are real? I've seen pictures, but these may not be dingos, and everyone who talks about them might be lying. Yes, that is the proper way to think...
By his logic, the moon landing must've been false! I mean, WHERE'S THE PROOF NASA?

Actualy a very good friend of mine in college that I worked out with tonight, Solomon, said he doesn't like the non-denominational denomination, he's going to convert to Baptist like me, but he's afraid of what his mom will say. Me, I dont very much prefer the Baptist over another, although I think it is more correct than most denominations, but I certainly dont agree with all they teach. Religion is a pain, useless realy, I just dont like, its fake and worldly, I believe in a relationship with God, religion is useless pretty much, trying or having to conform to a certain set of beliefs regardless of what you think, another VERY close friend of mine, Rachel, doesn't like her Baptist church because she feels like it is trying to make her conform to what they think. Religion is a road block to a saving relationship, the cerimonies, confuse you, the boarders it puts up, hinders you. One reason why I feel called to be a church planter and not a pastor, so I am emphesize the importance of relationship far over any type of religion. The only way you can prove or truly know God is through a relationship, not religion or facts.

Agreed on the relationship with God being most important. But sometimes people confuse organized religion and church. It would be rather hard to establish a relationship with God when its just God and you. Its better to worship at least part of the time with other people. People just naturally moved towards those that believed closest to what they did which led to all the different organized religions and the teaching of specific closed views.

Honestly..
Why does it matter?
If you have faith, that's wonderful. If you don't, that's wonderful, too.
People grasp at straws for proof of the unexplainable. That's why we have the Weekly World News. In the end, it doesn't matter. Reality is relative. Move on. No matter how big an ass you make of yourself, no matter how convincing your arguement, you aren't going to convince someone who doesn't already believe it. You really shouldn't try, either. Simply leave each other alone. Be content in the knowledge that the heathens are all going to hell, or that the Religious Nuts are in for a big surprise when they die.
Until the UFO's come and take us all away.


That's what I've been saying, man! ::APPLAUDS::

By his logic, the moon landing must've been false! I mean, WHERE'S THE PROOF NASA?

Yeah, and is North Dakota real? I've never physically been there. And if some "Claims" to be from North Dakota, they might be lying. :p

Yeah, and is North Dakota real? I've never physically been there. And if some "Claims" to be from North Dakota, they might be lying. :p
And there IS NO WYOMING!

Have you SEEN Wyoming?
Have you MET anyone from Wyoming?

You can beleive, or you dont have to, its your choice

But there is one thing that is true. Something gave us life, some force greater then us, greater then all the planets. No one can deny that.

It may be a god, or not. All I know is some supernatural force gave us, and maybe others life.

And there IS NO WYOMING!

Have you SEEN Wyoming?
Have you MET anyone from Wyoming?

Yeah, and is Bush real? Maybe he's just a really stupid hologram (now I'm getting off topic)

Agreed on the relationship with God being most important. But sometimes people confuse organized religion and church. It would be rather hard to establish a relationship with God when its just God and you. Its better to worship at least part of the time with other people. People just naturally moved towards those that believed closest to what they did which led to all the different organized religions and the teaching of specific closed views.

Yes, but a church is a relationship, one with all your fellow brothers and sisters through Christ, it's not a social club it's a family, and families are made up of relationships. When you put so many thing, like set times, set places, set pews, you limit or inhibit what you are allowing God to do, not that you could stop Him, but you are not giving Him the opportunity to do something or for you to do something in relationship to your other believers.

Yeah, and is North Dakota real? I've never physically been there. And if some "Claims" to be from North Dakota, they might be lying. :p

Its all the Freemasons. They make us believe in the moon landing and "North Dakota" for whatever plans they have in mind. Remove the veil people. *as the black helicopters land outside my dorm* O crap, looks like I'm going away for awhile. Just remember those little old guys that ride in cars at parades and wear fez hats, the shriners, they're lower level freemasons. SHRINERS HELP RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! WE GOTTA STOP THEM

:D;)

That's what I've been saying, man! ::APPLAUDS::
*bow* Er, except.. that's what I've been saying, woman. Or girl. female. Whichever you prefer.

To Sir Peter,
See, I go to mass every sunday. 11 am on the dot, I'm there. I'm right along with the rest of the congregation in yelling at the priest.
"Your hour's up, man! Can I go in peace now?"
I'm not catholic. Church can be an amazing experience, for a believer or a non-believer. There's a kind of peace in seeing so many people together, trying so very hard to preserve their faith in unsteady times, but when it becomes a power struggle.. When the message becomes:
"Conform or die and rot in a festering hell-pit for eternity.
Love Always,
The G-Man"
it's gone too far.

If you're going to be about faith, fine. It's just that.. things aren't supposed to be that way. Sometimes, people use religion to create a world-wide tyranny. It's unfriendly.

Its all the Freemasons. They make us believe in the moon landing and "North Dakota" for whatever plans they have in mind. Remove the veil people. *as the black helicopters land outside my dorm* O crap, looks like I'm going away for awhile. Just remember those little old guys that ride in cars at parades and wear fez hats, the shriners, they're lower level freemasons. SHRINERS HELP RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! WE GOTTA STOP THEM

AAAAAHHHH!!! Shriners aren't real!!! What if I'm not real?? *disappears*

P.S. Yes, I did have time to write disappears before I disappeared.

Its all the Freemasons. They make us believe in the moon landing and "North Dakota" for whatever plans they have in mind. Remove the veil people. *as the black helicopters land outside my dorm* O crap, looks like I'm going away for awhile. Just remember those little old guys that ride in cars at parades and wear fez hats, the shriners, they're lower level freemasons. SHRINERS HELP RULE THE WORLD!!!!!! WE GOTTA STOP THEM

:D;)
*dons Illuminati uniform*

You know the rest...

Knowledge is probablistic. There is obvious evidence for North Dakota and experiments you can perform to test it as well as the fact that the possibility of its existance is well within natural laws and not to mention you can easily go there yourself to find out.

The same cannot be said for a supernatural entity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

*bow* Er, except.. that's what I've been saying, woman. Or girl. female. Whichever you prefer.

To Sir Peter,
See, I go to mass every sunday. 11 am on the dot, I'm there. I'm right along with the rest of the congregation in yelling at the priest.
"Your hour's up, man! Can I go in peace now?"
I'm not catholic. Church can be an amazing experience, for a believer or a non-believer. There's a kind of peace in seeing so many people together, trying so very hard to preserve their faith in unsteady times, but when it becomes a power struggle.. When the message becomes:
"Conform or die and rot in a festering hell-pit for eternity.
Love Always,
The G-Man"
it's gone too far.

If you're going to be about faith, fine. It's just that.. things aren't supposed to be that way. Sometimes, people use religion to create a world-wide tyranny. It's unfriendly.

I agree. I'm not sure why you are bringing it up to me though. The message of Christianity is not conform or go to hell, its that Jesus is the path to salvation.

Knowledge is probablistic. There is obvious evidence for North Dakota and experiments you can perform to test it as well the possibility of its existance is well within natural laws and not to mention you can easily go there yourself to find out.

The same cannot be said for a supernatural entity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

My point is, how do we REALLY know that there is physical evidence of North Dakota. All books and people who talk about it could be lying.

*dons Illuminati uniform*

You know the rest...

*Barricading doors and windows so they can't get in...*
I knew it! Give me a list of members and meeting place. Confess! The people WILL know the TRUTH! The TRUTH is out there!

You can beleive, or you dont have to, its your choice

But there is one thing that is true. Something gave us life, some force greater then us, greater then all the planets. No one can deny that.

It may be a god, or not. All I know is some supernatural force gave us, and maybe others life.

Also consider this, around 90% of this universe is made up of "dark matter", matter that we cannot see or physicaly detect, yet it is all around us and affects us all the time, it holds the universe together. How can you prove something you cant detect? You look at the evidence. Things move like they shouldn't normaly, things are where they shouldn't or couldn't be, yet they are, we feel its affects everyday of our lives, yet we cant see and can go on fine without ever knowing its there, God in most ways is the same.

*Barricading doors and windows so they can't get in...*
I knew it! Give me a list of members and meeting place. Confess! The people WILL know the TRUTH! The TRUTH is out there!

*X-Files theme plays*

The same cannot be said for a supernatural entity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Claims that can, by definition, neither be proven nor disproven require no evidence.

Knowledge is probablistic. There is obvious evidence for North Dakota and experiments you can perform to test it as well as the fact that the possibility of its existance is well within natural laws and not to mention you can easily go there yourself to find out.

The same cannot be said for a supernatural entity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

You have no true knowledge of the fact that North Dakota truly exists. Who is to say that we are not all just being deceived and seeing things that really are not there as that happens often? If you believe North Dakota is there when there is honestly no ABSOLUTE proof of this, why is it so hard to believe in God?

I agree. I'm not sure why you are bringing it up to me though. The message of Christianity is conform or go to hell, its that Jesus is the path to salvation.

It was your comment about the confusion between church and organized religion.

You see, that is what the message of christianity is supposed to be. However, it isn't always the case. Sometimes, elvis is the path to salvation. Well, not exactly. That's a long story about the priest going off on tangents about elvis and how jesus used props, and watching the credits after movies, but still... My point is that religious "leaders".. Priests, pastors, popes, whatever.. They are not always so pious. Every human is susceptible to human urges, lusts, failings.. The message gets lost in the needs of the masses, or the desires of the messenger.

My point is, how do we REALLY know that there is physical evidence of North Dakota. All books and people who talk about it could be lying.

If by that you mean, do we know with absolute certainity that North Dakota exists then no, we don't. However not all claims to knowledge are equal and in this case, its safe to assume for the reasons I mentioned.

OOC:

I rarely, if ever, like to venture into General. But, I'll just add in my 2 cents. Camdean, I can't prove to you that God exists, certainly in a scientific manner that I think you want. All that an individual has is their own story and faith. Belief in God requires faith, which is the opposite of proof.

OOC:

I rarely, if ever, like to venture into General. But, I'll just add in my 2 cents. Camdean, I can't prove to you that God exists, certainly in a scientific manner that I think you want. All that an individual has is their own story and faith. Belief in God requires faith, which is the opposite of proof.

Faith is proof to the one who believes. ;)

If by that you mean, do we know with absolute certainity that North Dakota exists then no, we don't. However not all claims to knowledge are equal and in this case, its safe to assume for the reasons I mentioned.

You could be right, but the point is, there is technically no physical evidence of anything unless you are directly looking at. Well, it's 12:24 A.M. here, good night....

You could be right, but the point is, there is technically no physical evidence of anything unless you are directly looking at. Well, it's 12:24 A.M. here, good night....
Schrodinger's cat, anyone? .. and g'night.

God = disprove it.

Yes I am an agnostic. Feels good to admit that I just don't know.

You could be right, but the point is, there is technically no physical evidence of anything unless you are directly looking at. Well, it's 12:24 A.M. here, good night....

Unless your eyes are malfunctioning.

Unless your eyes are malfunctioning.
and let's not forget. there are none so blind as those who have no eyes.

God = disprove it.

Villianous blue superintelligent ice cream cones bent on galactic domination = disprove it.

Villianous blue superintelligent ice cream cones bent on galactic domination = disprove it.
I simply can't. I'm eating one as we.. use a multi-level internet based thingiewazzit to transmit ideas to one another.

The more I have read... I have come to realize that this thread has no point. There is no proof either way.

Science and God can be true at the same time.

Maybe the nature of God is something in our interectual pride we can not even understand. If God exists, He sure is a lot smarter than us and understands the universe more than us.

Are we so full of ourselves that we think we are the smartest things in this universe? That is terracentrisism if I have ever heard it.

If God is God, then He sure has the power to do what we think is impossible. What caused the big bang? If you listen to Hawking, we'll never know (we don't have any light left over from before).

Maybe we do live on after we die. We probably aren't smart enough to detect it with our limited knowledge.

Maybe the nature of Villianous blue superintelligent ice cream cones bent on galactic domination (VBSICCs) is something in our interectual pride we can not even understand. If VBSICCs exist, They sure are a lot smarter than us and understand the universe more than us.

Are we so full of ourselves that we think we are the smartest things in this universe? That is terracentrisism if I have ever heard it.

If VBSICCs are VBSICCs, then they sure have the power to do what we think is impossible. What caused the big bang? If you listen to Hawking, we'll never know (we don't have any light left over from before).

Maybe we do live on after we die. We probably aren't smart enough to detect it with our limited knowledge.
---

As an aside, your memory are physical, residing in your brain. If you get brian damage in certain areas, you will lose your memory. As such, the person you were ceases to exist even if the body is still there. At death, the brain stops functioning. Your memories are lost. You cease to exist.

fantasy shmantasy. do you realise man invented every other god but the god of the christians and jews? i mean, seriously. think about it. my god does not follow the conventional patterns of any other religion or any other diety. my god offers forgiveness. does any other?

all religions follow patterns and they are all in some way "conventional." the creation, the flood, even the holy trinity have all influenced or been influenced by many ancient and modern religions. i'm not saying christianity doesn't have unique characteristics and it's true that not many deities offer the all-encompassing love described in the new testament, but no religion can offer utterly convincing proof that it wasn't invented by humanity. i'm not saying i don't believe in God, not that it matters to anyone else and not that it's anyone else's business, but read up on the obvious patterns and globally-embraced connections before claiming uniqueness.

What everyone said + what everyone said <reversed>. Exactly. Now. I'm going to bed. ... Or maybe I'm lying and I -AM- the bed. Maybe I'm not typing at all, and this is all a dream. Or maybe I'm dreaming my own reality.

In the end, this has been pointless debate. But fun pointless debate. Night, lovies.

prove it?
easy
use logic

the first argument

in order for there to be any kind of discussion about God the term must be defined so that all sides agree as to what is being discussed

1. God is, all powerfull all knowing, everywhere present, all benevolent unending without begining etc...
in other words a being which none greater can be concieved
a being of the utmost maximum perfection in every way

2. God exists in, at the very least, the minds of men and therefore it is posible that God might exist in reality.

3. if something exists only in the mind but not in reality, but is still posible for it to exist in reality it is less than the thing that exists in both the mind and in reality.
in other words things that are real are greater than things that are not.

4. suppose God (see point 1) exists in the mind only but does not exist in reality

5. if that is true that there IS a being that is greater (see 2 and 3) than the being in point 4
namely a God that exists

6. So it is possible for something to have been greater than God (from 5).

7. Since God is that which nothing greater is possible (from 1), then it is possible for something to be greater than that which nothing greater is possible (from 6).

Conclusion: Statement 7 is absurd. It can’t possibly be true because it is self-contradictory. Therefore, God must exist in reality as well as the mind.


the second argument

1. things exist

2. existance is broken into three catagories
imposible: something that cannot exist because it logically contradicts itself round squares for example
posible things that can but do not have to exist
nesissarythings that have to exist

To see why there are possible beings, one must understand what a necessary being would be, if , in fact, it did exist. Since it is impossible for a necessary being not to exist, it cannot have any potentiality with regard to existence. If it did, then its non-existence would be possible. But necessary existence cannot be this way. Thus, a necessary being can have no potentiality with regard to existence. Its existence is (1) pure actuality. Further, a necessary being must be (2) immutable [unchanging]; obviously, for change to exist, there must be the potentiality for change. However, a purely actual existence has no potentiality with regard to its actuality. Therefore, a necessary being must be unchanging. Notably, the attribute of (3) timelessness logically follows form immutability because if there is no change, then there is no time. Also, such a being must be (4) infinite [unlimited]. Only that which has potentiality can be limited. But pure actuality does not have any potential; so necessary existence is not limited, but unlimited. Furthermore, where there is multiplicity, there is also limitation and potentiality. But since a necessary being involves none of the latter, there can be no multiplicity in its being; it must be completely (5) one. Lastly, necessary existence must be (6) uncaused. Caused beings are moved from potentiality to actuality and, therefore, change. But there is no change in an unchanging being. Hence, a necessary being is uncaused.

as imposible things are eliminated all that remains are possible and nesissary
anything that lacks any of the atributes of a nesissary thing is only a posible thing

are there things that exist that lack those six atributes?
yes there is

3. posible existance is caused as it has within itself the capability to exist or not exist
there are three causes
self caused
caused
not caused

something must already exist to cause itself to exist therefore it is imposible

as things that are not caused don't exist that leaves caused

4. as all things in our understanding except God fall into the posible existance they must have been caused to exist
there must have been a first cause
as posible things cannot cause themselves to exist so something else must have
the nesissary existance caused posible existance as the nesissary existance is the only one that has no cause
only God fits the discription of a nesissary thing
therefor God must exist

Some of you have already laid the groundwork form my argument against God, but I feel you ahve not gone far enough.

The problem lies in that that to prove nearly anything is impossible. Indeed, there is only one thing that can be proven beyond doubt- which is one's own existance. From my perspective, the only thing I can know for sure is that something- and I cannot have any real idea what this "thing" I refer to myself is- that I call myself exits. As said before, I may well be a brain in a jar, but, something I call myself exists, because it is self-refelxive. Simply asking the question proves it's own correctness. The same is true from your perspective- the only thing you can prove is that something you call yourself exits.

Beyond that, you become more and more uncertain. For example- algebraic and gemoetrical proofs. While they may be irrefutable under the basic premisies of our universe, there is no way to prove that reality of whatever existance is is not completely different from those rules. Prehaps some evil demon has pulled the wool over our eyes, so to speak, and that in the real reality, 1=2 and any number of concepts beyond what makes sense to us. This of course does not prevent us from concieveing of them in an abstract sense, such as we do with imaginary numbers (those involving the square roots of negative numbers). Thus, while, if the most obvious truths of existance as we know it, then 1=1, however, this we must concede that this may not be true, though we are in the present state unable to really concieve of what this would mean.

Such is true for empirical propositions- those which physics, chemistry, biology and science in general- rest upon. They, in fact, are less certain than mathmatical truths- though, for instance, evolution has more evidence for it than virtually any other hypothosis in the history of science, its not inconcivable that new evidence could arise that contradict and disprove it, however unlikely. And again, the notion that we cannont even prove that all the world is a dream or halluicination persists as well.

This continues, so on and so forth, the point being, that nothing is certain except for the sinlge reflexive truth (I think, therefore I am). However, we now have to ask, what are the implications of this? Unless we are to live as the gnostics of aincent times (who belived that the world had been created by an evil demon the moment God turned away his eyes, and that everything was an illusion), we have to believe in something (and I mean this in a very wide sense). We cannot prove that simply because the laws of motion have always worked, so far as human experince can tell us, that they might simply cease to work in the next moment, but clearly, our world depends on the belief that they will continue to work forever (or at least as long as we happen to be around). The examples are numerous. We believe a virtually unlimited number of propositions which cannot, to absolute certainty, be proven true- but yet, we depend on those beliefs none the less.

The answer lies in that we should believe whatever has the strongest evidence, and furthermore, accept that it is not certain, and subject to change as the evidence before us changes. No, we cannot prove the big bang, or evolution, or even that there are other beings outside of ourselves. However, there is overwhelming evidence in all cases that support them. Thus, as far as any such propostions in their respective classes (emperical for the first two, and directly onservable for the third) can be proven true, they have been, more or less.

So here comes the problem with God. No, as I have clearly implied and now directly concede, the existance of God cannot be proven nor disproven, nor can they be. However, there is also no evidence for God, puting the idea of God in the same category as an infinite number of propositions, all of which are utter speculation, though in the most absolute sense, they cannont be disproven. Now, I could go on as to why people choose to believe God in the face of all this, though that would be quite unnessecary and at that, far to uncertain itself to mean much of anything (after all, the social sciences are much looser than natural sciences, and I'm certainly no psycologist (and committed to irony as well, it would seem)). What this all means is that, if we are attempting to develop an accurate picture of the world (to whatever extent this is even possible), then we cannont include God in this picture.

There is of course, one other question that may be asked. Namely, does belief in God have any positive or negative consequences to humanity? If a belief in God, despite having no basis in anything tangible, has positive consequences for many individuals, it might well be wise for said persons to simply continue their belief in happy oblivion (though, that itself could be quite a lengthy debate). However, while it may have some positive psychological benifits for some, I believe that belief in God rests upon a broad way of thinking that has done innumerable harm to mankind.

The problem, indeeed, is not with a belief in God per se, but that it is symptomatic of a dogmatic way of thought. Dogmatic thinking demands something be true, even when evidence would seem to contradict it, or when there is simply no reason to believe whatever it is is said to be true. All religions are dogmatic (and I include among these the secular religions that were practiced in Nazi Germany and the USSR, and all other totalitarian states), and religion, I believe, has done tremendous harm to mankind. It has hindered our progress in understanding the world (though again, considering that we, if "we" has any meaning at all, are only coming to understand a world which could just as well be a collective illusion), it has caused and justified war and cruelty. Even to a more passive degree, religions are often used as a way to provide a safety in certainty where indeed there is none. However, I believe that in all situations, courage is to be valued above cowerdice, not simply in the physical realm, as is often taught to boys. Furthermore, the dogmatic way of thinking it in direct opposition to science and the scientific way of thinking.

Also, I admit that religion has inspired many great and humane works. However, I also see this as a tremendously sad reflection on human kind, that indeed, we need a belief in a powerful and wrathful God or ever-lasting peace in order to motivate us to be loving and humane towards eachother. Hopefully, I hope we can transcend the trapings of dogmatism, elevate science, reason, and the willingness to accpet uncertainty, and at the same time, continute to find (and indeed, increase) the amount of love for our fellow men in this world. And I believe that as mankind outgrows its religious childhood, the need of a belief in God will evaporate.

Fundamentally, I quote Nietzsche in saying (though I greatly hesitate to do this, because I disagree with a vast amount of what he has to say), "Faith means not even wanting to know the truth." And on a personal note, thank you to Bertrand Russel, for- and I believe this is the technical term- "rocking the house 24/7/365."

Also, I'd like to apologize for any blatant incoherencies, spelling, or general gramatical errors that I missed/was to lazy to read back over. Constructive criticism is of course welcome, while fanatics on eiteher side will be promptly ignored.

*snip*

zOMG! Saint Anselm has come back from the grave! ... and he's still trying to define things into existance!

Special note on argument two: the "law" of Cause and Effect breaks down at the beginning of the universe.

Here's your proof of God, over 300 items: http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

Heh. I remember that list from the Infidel Guy show about it.

Do you realize that you are asking to prove the existence of something you named? That alone is proof that it exists. In this case, God is a three-letter word in the dictionary, and that is a fact. So, if you want to meet God, pick up the dictionary and search for it. And while you are at it, remember this: your request did not specify the scope; therefore, my answer is valid.

Faith is proof to the one who believes. ;)

Well, yes. But to someone who doesn't believe, then that argument doesn't make sense.

*snip*.

Shame to rain on your parade, but that's just equivocation. Amusing, nonetheless.

prove it?
easy
use logic
Oh, this should be good.

the first argument

in order for there to be any kind of discussion about God the term must be defined so that all sides agree as to what is being discussed

1. God is, all powerfull all knowing, everywhere present, all benevolent unending without begining etc...
in other words a being which none greater can be concieved
a being of the utmost maximum perfection in every way

2. God exists in, at the very least, the minds of men and therefore it is posible that God might exist in reality.

3. if something exists only in the mind but not in reality, but is still posible for it to exist in reality it is less than the thing that exists in both the mind and in reality.
in other words things that are real are greater than things that are not.

4. suppose God (see point 1) exists in the mind only but does not exist in reality

5. if that is true that there IS a being that is greater (see 2 and 3) than the being in point 4
namely a God that exists

6. So it is possible for something to have been greater than God (from 5).

7. Since God is that which nothing greater is possible (from 1), then it is possible for something to be greater than that which nothing greater is possible (from 6).

Conclusion: Statement 7 is absurd. It can’t possibly be true because it is self-contradictory. Therefore, God must exist in reality as well as the mind.
Try harder. (http://www.machall.com/index.php?strip_id=189)

the second argument

1. things exist

2. existance is broken into three catagories
imposible: something that cannot exist because it logically contradicts itself round squares for example
posible things that can but do not have to exist
nesissarythings that have to exist

To see why there are possible beings, one must understand what a necessary being would be, if , in fact, it did exist. Since it is impossible for a necessary being not to exist, it cannot have any potentiality with regard to existence. If it did, then its non-existence would be possible. But necessary existence cannot be this way. Thus, a necessary being can have no potentiality with regard to existence. Its existence is (1) pure actuality. Further, a necessary being must be (2) immutable [unchanging]; obviously, for change to exist, there must be the potentiality for change. However, a purely actual existence has no potentiality with regard to its actuality. Therefore, a necessary being must be unchanging. Notably, the attribute of (3) timelessness logically follows form immutability because if there is no change, then there is no time. Also, such a being must be (4) infinite [unlimited]. Only that which has potentiality can be limited. But pure actuality does not have any potential; so necessary existence is not limited, but unlimited. Furthermore, where there is multiplicity, there is also limitation and potentiality. But since a necessary being involves none of the latter, there can be no multiplicity in its being; it must be completely (5) one. Lastly, necessary existence must be (6) uncaused. Caused beings are moved from potentiality to actuality and, therefore, change. But there is no change in an unchanging being. Hence, a necessary being is uncaused.

as imposible things are eliminated all that remains are possible and nesissary
anything that lacks any of the atributes of a nesissary thing is only a posible thing

are there things that exist that lack those six atributes?
yes there is

3. posible existance is caused as it has within itself the capability to exist or not exist
there are three causes
self caused
caused
not caused

something must already exist to cause itself to exist therefore it is imposible

as things that are not caused don't exist that leaves caused

4. as all things in our understanding except God fall into the posible existance they must have been caused to exist
there must have been a first cause
as posible things cannot cause themselves to exist so something else must have
the nesissary existance caused posible existance as the nesissary existance is the only one that has no cause
only God fits the discription of a nesissary thing
therefor God must exist
All blather that hinges on rules of causation and necessity that aren't necessarily true.

Until the scientific method turns anything up, "God" is relegated to the same status as invisible elves as a cause for gravity. "Logical" arguments are usually inane and are always dependent on us understanding the fundamental workings of the natural world. Guess what? We don't.

GOD proves himself in our mistypingss :p

you can not prove the big bang theory, neither can you prove the fact that creation by God was true. They are both models. To prove scientifically you would have to be able to recreate either one in the laboratory., which is impossible. so either side you take you must put your faith in that model.


That was my point.

Villianous blue superintelligent ice cream cones bent on galactic domination = disprove it.

Are you aware of sarcasm? If you are I suggest you re-read my post with that in mind.

Well, yes. But to someone who doesn't believe, then that argument doesn't make sense.

Christianity doesn't make any sense except to those who believe in it.

All blather that hinges on rules of causation and necessity that aren't necessarily true.

Until the scientific method turns anything up, "God" is relegated to the same status as invisible elves as a cause for gravity. "Logical" arguments are usually inane and are always dependent on us understanding the fundamental workings of the natural world. Guess what? We don't.

God is something spiritual, supernatural, beyond and greater than us, so how can you reasonably ask us to prove it to you using limited means such as simple science? Do you try to prove how nuclear fusion works with simple arithmetic? It's the same with things on the spiritual level. What of me and my testimony to His existance, or the testimony of millions of others? Doesn't that mean something? It would in a court of law, one witness is enough to send a man to his death, you cant believe everything you hear though, but at least thinking about it or trying to understand it helps.

the real question is what came first the Chicken or the Egg?

the real question is what came first the Chicken or the Egg?

The real answer to the REAL real question is:

*) Rock beats Scissors.
*) Scissors beats Paper.
*) Paper beats Rock.
*) Ergo,... God exists,.. because, if God didn't exist, WHY would Paper beat Rock...?!


Refute (or prove) THAT one, smart guys..!!

The real answer to the REAL real question is:

*) Rock beats Scissors.
*) Scissors beats Paper.
*) Paper beats Rock.
*) Ergo,... God exists,.. because, if God didn't exist, WHY would Paper beat Rock...?!


Refute (or prove) THAT one, smart guys..!!

Paper is carnivorous and eats rocks for a living. Rocks are just big lumbering herbivores and are too slow for paper. Scissors are very poisonous plants that rocks have developed the ability to digest but paper is highly allergic to. Thus, lots of paper is killed when trying to catch its prey. :D

I had to try.

Who's to say God or spirtuality exist on the same level of consciousness as we do?

God/religion/spirtuality and Physical proof = Separate entities

Why does anyone CARE whether or not another individual does or does not believe in God? Believe what YOU like, and respect others' rights to believe what THEY like.

God is something spiritual, supernatural, beyond and greater than us, so how can you reasonably ask us to prove it to you using limited means such as simple science?
First of all, calling the entirety of science "simple" is a laugh. Secondly, who are you to say that the gravity-causing elves aren't spiritual, supernatural, beyond and greater than us?

Do you try to prove how nuclear fusion works with simple arithmetic?
No. Mathematics are involved, but science is also not confined to scientific knowledge. Science is an approach to studying and gathering information.

It's the same with things on the spiritual level. What of me and my testimony to His existance, or the testimony of millions of others? Doesn't that mean something? It would in a court of law, one witness is enough to send a man to his death, you cant believe everything you hear though, but at least thinking about it or trying to understand it helps.
Eyewitnesses are testing to events that they have physically witnessed. You'll notice the legal system doesn't put people who "just feel" that someone has or has not done something on the stand.

First of all, calling the entirety of science "simple" is a laugh.

Compare it to all that science that exists in the world. What we know is very basic compared what there actually is.

Secondly, who are you to say that the gravity-causing elves aren't spiritual, supernatural, beyond and greater than us?

Who are you to say that science is infalliable and defies religious proofs? It's a personal belief, get over it. Let people believe what they want to believe when it comes to the spiritual level.

Eyewitnesses are testing to events that they have physically witnessed. You'll notice the legal system doesn't put people who "just feel" that someone has or has not done something on the stand.

But then again, when we're talking about something spiritual, why do we need to approach the problem from a physical point of view?

Ive just read 4 or 5 pages and still there is no proof of GOD existing..

People who claim they know its true must sincerly know inside them selves that it most likely isnt true and just lie to comfort their own fears which in respect is acceptable with all the massacres of today happening where else do you turn ?

Ive just read 4 or 5 pages and still there is no proof of GOD existing..

Because, by definition, there can be no proof. The statement that there is or is not a god or gods is an axiomatic statement and cannot be scientifically proven or disproven. Why can't you just accept that you are on the opposite side of the axiom from some people and move on with your life?

I'm an athiest, but I believe that other people a free to believe whatever they want.

It is my opinion that the existance of God can never be proved nor disproved, so it is a pretty pointless debate.

If someone said to me that their bedroom is painted red, I have no reason to believe them, unless they showed some proof. Now, imagine that for some reason they couldn't show it me, or show me a photograph. But the could show me a nice little book about their red bedroom, or some artistic paintings of it.
Yet, I still have no actual proof.

So, if people choose to believe in no god (like me), or one God, a whole pantheon of gods, or invisible pink unicorns, that is entirely up to them.

Because, by definition, there can be no proof. The statement that there is or is not a god or gods is an axiomatic statement and cannot be scientifically proven or disproven. Why can't you just accept that you are on the opposite side of the axiom from some people and move on with your life?


When i see so manypeople torn up by it and so many deaths i CHOOSE not to turn away then when i see people ramming it down childrens throats making them zombies I WONT TURN AWAY.

Then to hear some people claim they know the truth no matter what they are going to heaven because they beleive in it just makes me ask these questions and ask them to proove this remark they have went on for 2000 years + for.

Dempublicents, are you aware of what an axiom is?

God cannot be an axiom because you have to presuppose it exists and has a nature.

Are you aware of sarcasm? If you are I suggest you re-read my post with that in mind.

My sarcasm detection stick was misplaced and your two word post provided no context.

Dempublicents, are you aware of what an axiom is?

God cannot be an axiom because you have to presuppose it exists and has a nature.

An axiomatic statement is one that you presuppose to be true. By definition it cannot be proven. Those who believe in a god or gods presuppose that there is a god or gods. Those who do not presuppose that there is not.

I think it is you who do not know what an axiom is - as it is exactly a presupposition which you then use as the base for other statements.

Axiom:
1 : a maxim widely accepted on its intrinsic merit
2 : a statement accepted as true as the basis for argument or inference : POSTULATE 1
3 : an established rule or principle or a self-evident truth

#2 is really the one that factors in the best in this situation. Although, for many, the existence or non existence of god is a self-evident truth, so #3 has some merit too.

When i see so manypeople torn up by it and so many deaths i CHOOSE not to turn away then when i see people ramming it down childrens throats making them zombies I WONT TURN AWAY.

Then to hear some people claim they know the truth no matter what they are going to heaven because they beleive in it just makes me ask these questions and ask them to proove this remark they have went on for 2000 years + for.

And yet you ignore the fact that none of those deaths are a result of someone believing in god or in a story. The deaths are due to human beings wanting to cause death, plain and simple.

As for proof of god, as I have pointed out - the existence of god cannot be proven. You believe there is not a god of any sort. I have felt God in my life and therefore believe there is a God. Plain and simple.

It is not an axiom if it is reductible, as I've shown. As well, to be axiom it must be self-refuting to try to disprove it. It is not self-refuting to say "God does not exist." however.

But I feel we're talking about slighty different things here. I'm thinking along the lines of an axiom in a logical system. Like the christian presuppositonist arguments you see.

I certainly don't take "God does not exist" as an axiom. Anyone who does with either side is obviously being irrational and begging the question.

You just posted and ive seen you post before we are physical beings on this planet.
Wow. I just realized that no one in here is debating very strongly except the people who aren't take one extreme or the other....the people who are just making the little quips are the strongest debaters in this thread.

Now, you all know that though I may be a little bit eccentric, I am very logical. I also believe in god. Do you want to know why I believe in god?

I feel him. I see my friends when they worship, falling down on their faces. I see mass hysteria in the church I go to. When I pray to him, thoughts and feelings that I never believe come into me, and I act upon them.

God is like the wind. You cannot see the wind. You can see the wind move other things. You can see it pick things up and move them. You can feel the wind on your skin, and feel it blow you over in huge gusts. You can hear it all around you.

I don't know about you guys, but when I see a friend of mine turn from one person into someone completely different in only 3 months, I have to believe in the existence of god.

When I turn from a rabid cleptomaniac into someone who has no desire to steal, even when he counts thousands of dollars at work, I have to say, God exists.

He doesn't exist as a thing. He moves through people. The true Born-again christians will say they know that god exists because he has turned something that was once vile (a human) into something that is pure. I see it daily. God lives inside them, not as an idea, but as the purest manifestation of love that humans can see.

Ive just read 4 or 5 pages and still there is no proof of GOD existing..

People who claim they know its true must sincerly know inside them selves that it most likely isnt true and just lie to comfort their own fears which in respect is acceptable with all the massacres of today happening where else do you turn ?
For God to exist, you must prove it to yourself if you want to believe. If you don't want to believe, you can not prove it to yourself, and if you can't prove something to yourself, or just accept something without proof on your own, no amount of evidence presented by anyone will ever sway you. I can't see love, does that mean it doesn't exist? I can't see friendship, does it exist? I can't see rage, fear, anger, sorrow, do these things exist? I can't see you, I can only see your posts. I could believe that your posts are made by a machine. How do I know "you" exist? All you are to me are short bits of literature...

I see my friends when they worship, falling down on their faces.
Do you laugh? When my friends fall down, whether it be on their face, ass, whatever, I laugh.

If you make one mistake he will send you to hell to be tortured for all eternity, but
he loves you.


J/k

Sorry, that may sound cheesy, but it is how it truly is for me. I know God is real because I see him manifesting himself in my life and the lives of others. I don't listen to some stupid pastor tell me how I should belive in God. I don't even go to church! But I know god exists because it would have been totally impossible for the changes I have experienced to be cause by anyone else.

Issues as deep rooted as cigarette addiction I have seen obliterated in a second. I have seen people that others would call phsycos turned into sane, rational individuals after just one prayer session. It is crazy, how real god can be, if you just look at the things that these people gain.

A thought: What the hell (pun intended) could a finite person do in a finite amount of time to deserve infinite punishment? As well, what could a finite person possibly do in a finite amount to deserve an infinite reward?

Issues as deep rooted as cigarette addiction I have seen obliterated in a second. I have seen people that others would call phsycos turned into sane, rational individuals after just one prayer session. It is crazy, how real god can be, if you just look at the things that these people gain.

Quite simply, it seems to be all psychological. No jesus magic required.

Do you laugh? When my friends fall down, whether it be on their face, ass, whatever, I laugh.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not a jesus freak, but that was a pretty snide comment. You know what I say? Investigate this for yourselves, because otherwise you will offer nothing but cynicism and sarcasm.

Normally, I would laugh too. But when someone who is not under the influence of any drugs falls down on their face, and doesn't care or even flinch, you have to wonder what is going on.

[QUOTE=Comandante] I see mass hysteria in the church I go to.[QUOTE]

A sure sign that God is not there. God has commanded there to be order in his creation (which there is) and order in Christ's kingdom (the Church, which there is). If there is mass hysteria in a local church, then someone else is ruling.

However, as well, feelings do not qualify for "proof" of God. I don't know why any Christian bothers to "prove" God exists to an athiest. Athiests know that God exists in their heart of hearts, but they supress the knowledge they have and instead believe fantasies. They become worse than fools, for they believe lies purposefully.

Remember as well, that God reveals Himself to whom He will. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion and He hardens whom He will harden. Everyone who remains outside of Christ will be destroyed finally at the Last Day.

Don't worry, be happy, our God is a consuming fire.

Big Bang - proove it.

Me? I'm atheist, but no one should have to "proove" their beleifs.

the way that i look at it is, if God put us on this earth to worship him, i think he would be making himself a bit more obvious, than this entity we pray to. And if he created us just to worship him, then that's pretty egotistical. And why give us free will? if we're supposed to worship him, why not make it part of our 'programming'? that would be so much easier.

:mp5:

They become worse than fools, for they believe lies purposefully.


Matthew 5.22: ... and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire.


Remember as well, that God reveals Himself to whom He will. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion and He hardens whom He will harden.


Then let's abadon any pretense of being just or moral then, shall we?


Everyone who remains outside of Christ will be destroyed finally at the Last Day.


Cease to exist? That's what I expected anyway.

The Big Bang Theory = prove it.

(evil, ooo i got them now sarcastic laugh) This should be interesting.....

actually i believe in steady state theory, that's also a scientific theory which some(maybe even Eistein, but that's a whole different can of worms.). Steady states basically says that's there no end or beginning to time and the universe itself, prove me that i'm wrong.

[QUOTE=Comandante] I see mass hysteria in the church I go to.[QUOTE]

A sure sign that God is not there. God has commanded there to be order in his creation (which there is) and order in Christ's kingdom (the Church, which there is). If there is mass hysteria in a local church, then someone else is ruling.

However, as well, feelings do not qualify for "proof" of God. I don't know why any Christian bothers to "prove" God exists to an athiest. Athiests know that God exists in their heart of hearts, but they supress the knowledge they have and instead believe fantasies. They become worse than fools, for they believe lies purposefully.

Remember as well, that God reveals Himself to whom He will. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion and He hardens whom He will harden. Everyone who remains outside of Christ will be destroyed finally at the Last Day.

Don't worry, be happy, our God is a consuming fire.Hey, it's where all of the comedians and politicians are going, so at least we'll be entertained.

I have NEVER heard of a more bigoted statement in my life. Atheists "Know God exists"? I came in here neutral, but your drivel has pushed me over to their side. I feel that if God does exist, then he understands my reasoning for being an atheist. I live a good life, because my conscious tells me to. I do NOT believe in God.

A thought: What the hell (pun intended) could a finite person do in a finite amount of time to deserve infinite punishment? As well, what could a finite person possibly do in a finite amount to deserve an infinite reward?



Quite simply, it seems to be all psychological. No jesus magic required.



The issue is not about what you do though. At least, not according to christian philosophy

Most people will only do a good deed for a reward. Recognition, fame, money, friends, etc. Which still means that they are doing a selfish deed, and thus, they are doing wrong. This may not make sense to you, but it certainly makes a bit of sense to me. I guess it is like Kant's philosophy turned backwards. Though the result may be good, if the motive is bad, then the action is bad. Makes sense?

Therefore nothing good that you do gets anyone into heaven.


About it all being Phsychological though. Any Phsychologist will tell you that no one moment can bring about a personal revolution. Also, in many cases, the person who was changed, prior to that, was both conciously and subconciously resistant to the change.
Thus, the person, more often than not, was being changed by something that was outside of their power to control, or even influence!

Cease to exist? That's what I expected anyway.
Socrates,(one of the worlds earlier atheists), says it best... (Paraphrasing)
If we are annihalated, then there is no good feeling or bad, because we aren't there to feel it. Why is a night of dreamless sleep good? Because when you WAKE UP, you feel rested and ready to go. There is in "Waking", so, there is no feeling.

And Shaunavon? No one can prove anything as of yet. They are all theories. All are argued, all have their positives and negatives.

[QUOTE=Comandante] I see mass hysteria in the church I go to.[QUOTE]

A sure sign that God is not there. God has commanded there to be order in his creation (which there is) and order in Christ's kingdom (the Church, which there is). If there is mass hysteria in a local church, then someone else is ruling.

However, as well, feelings do not qualify for "proof" of God. I don't know why any Christian bothers to "prove" God exists to an athiest. Athiests know that God exists in their heart of hearts, but they supress the knowledge they have and instead believe fantasies. They become worse than fools, for they believe lies purposefully.

Remember as well, that God reveals Himself to whom He will. He has compassion on whom He will have compassion and He hardens whom He will harden. Everyone who remains outside of Christ will be destroyed finally at the Last Day.

Don't worry, be happy, our God is a consuming fire.


That is the worst excuse against the presence of god I have ever heard! You must be a baptist. You have to realize, the only thing that makes our religion different from all the others is that change in ours happens instantly, and it happens outside of a person's control. If you are going to dismiss the only thing that makes christianity unique, then fine. Rely on your faith alone, but I will be relying on my personal experience.

You cannot "prove" that God exists. This is the basic identity of religion, that your beliefs are based on faith, not evidence, scientifical or otherwise. This is why those certain factions of the Christian Church, such as the Christian Scientist Church are so odd.

Science is highly over rated (it once said that he world was flat too).

Science may be over rated but at least it didnt have wars being fought all the time about it. Everyone is right about how you cant prove god exists and you cant disprove it so why believe he exists and why believe he doesnt exist. Its called being agnostic and this is wh.at I believe

Hey, it's where all of the comedians and politicians are going, so at least we'll be entertained.

I have NEVER heard of a more bigoted statement in my life. Atheists "Know God exists"? I came in here neutral, but your drivel has pushed me over to their side. I feel that if God does exist, then he understands my reasoning for being an atheist. I live a good life, because my conscious tells me to. I do NOT believe in God.



Sorry about that. That is a totally unfounded Southern-Baptist belief. I apologize sincerely for my colleague preaching such dogmatic tripe.

Please stay neuteral, I have made at least a good effort, with my experiences, to show the existence of god. Don't let some foolish 13 year old kid piss you off.

About it all being Phsychological though. Any Phsychologist will tell you that no one moment can bring about a personal revolution. Also, in many cases, the person who was changed, prior to that, was both conciously and subconciously resistant to the change.
Thus, the person, more often than not, was being changed by something that was outside of their power to control, or even influence

I would like to see some evidence.

More interestingly, there are lots of mental factors of the brain that we are only beginning to discover which concern religious (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml) experience (http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm).

Sorry about that. That is a totally unfounded Southern-Baptist belief. I apologize sincerely for my colleague preaching such dogmatic tripe.

Please stay neuteral, I have made at least a good effort, with my experiences, to show the existence of god. Don't let some foolish 13 year old kid piss you off.
No harm done, man. I knew that there were reasonable religious people out there, I've just had some very bad experiences with them. I'm sticking by my posts, though.

I talked to God today, and he said he could care less what any of you think. However, if you must know....and I am quoting now, "I do exist. Please send your checks now."

Matthew 5.22: ... and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire..

All Scripture is God breathed and is suitable for reproof. The Scriptures cannot be divided. The statements I made concerning fools was from the 1st chapter of Romans and unlike your quote, which is taken out of its context, mine was used properly.

"Then let's abadon any pretense of being just or moral then, shall we?"

Which I suppose is referring to the quote from Scripture where GOD says that he has mercy on whom he wills, and hardens whom he wills.
Well, that will be no excuse for you, comrade. You and I are free agents, and we do according to our desires. God however is sovereign and has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, yet without doing violence to the free angecies, nor to second causes, but rather establishing them.

"Cease to exist? That's what I expected anyway.

No, actually it is eternal and conscious torment in the presence of God and his elect angels and men.

God is patient, obviously. You are still alive. Its not too late to repent.

God is supposed to be pure and good and heaven is supposed to be pure happiness. But why the hell do we need to scare people via fear tactics to achieve this? I don't think an all-loving, selfless, perfect creator god wouldn't be vengeful nor jealous nor unforgiving (letting people rot in hell :rolleyes: ). We need to redefine religion in my mind and give it an overhaul.

Actually many many christians believe that god doesn't want people to "burn in hell". They merely refuse paradise and choose sin. Which ties in to another argument. The scriptures relating to "hell fire" is actually seen by many as a metaphor. It describes a cities junkyard that burns its trash, and likens this to eternal seperation from god. It's not actually burning so much as an eternity of living in sin. Or you know, maybe hell is filled with burning garbage. That would suck.

Oh and Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck, you are not helping this argument. Your flamebait post is merely derailing what is almost a civilized discussion.

Vaidon: the ontological proof, i was waiting for that :rolleyes: "By definition God is the greatest being conceivable, however if he didnt exist there could potentially be a greater being, ie one with all Gods properties PLUS existence, so therefore, by definition, God must exist! An argument which was past its prime in the 14th century.

Some of you have already laid the groundwork form my argument against God, but I feel you ahve not gone far enough.

The problem lies in that that to prove nearly anything is impossible. Indeed, there is only one thing that can be proven beyond doubt- which is one's own existance. From my perspective, the only thing I can know for sure is that something- and I cannot have any real idea what this "thing" I refer to myself is- that I call myself exits. As said before, I may well be a brain in a jar, but, something I call myself exists, because it is self-refelxive. Simply asking the question proves it's own correctness. The same is true from your perspective- the only thing you can prove is that something you call yourself exits.

Beyond that, you become more and more uncertain. For example- algebraic and gemoetrical proofs. While they may be irrefutable under the basic premisies of our universe, there is no way to prove that reality of whatever existance is is not completely different from those rules. Prehaps some evil demon has pulled the wool over our eyes, so to speak, and that in the real reality, 1=2 and any number of concepts beyond what makes sense to us. This of course does not prevent us from concieveing of them in an abstract sense, such as we do with imaginary numbers (those involving the square roots of negative numbers). Thus, while, if the most obvious truths of existance as we know it, then 1=1, however, this we must concede that this may not be true, though we are in the present state unable to really concieve of what this would mean.

Such is true for empirical propositions- those which physics, chemistry, biology and science in general- rest upon. They, in fact, are less certain than mathmatical truths- though, for instance, evolution has more evidence for it than virtually any other hypothosis in the history of science, its not inconcivable that new evidence could arise that contradict and disprove it, however unlikely. And again, the notion that we cannont even prove that all the world is a dream or halluicination persists as well.

This continues, so on and so forth, the point being, that nothing is certain except for the sinlge reflexive truth (I think, therefore I am). However, we now have to ask, what are the implications of this? Unless we are to live as the gnostics of aincent times (who belived that the world had been created by an evil demon the moment God turned away his eyes, and that everything was an illusion), we have to believe in something (and I mean this in a very wide sense). We cannot prove that simply because the laws of motion have always worked, so far as human experince can tell us, that they might simply cease to work in the next moment, but clearly, our world depends on the belief that they will continue to work forever (or at least as long as we happen to be around). The examples are numerous. We believe a virtually unlimited number of propositions which cannot, to absolute certainty, be proven true- but yet, we depend on those beliefs none the less.

The answer lies in that we should believe whatever has the strongest evidence, and furthermore, accept that it is not certain, and subject to change as the evidence before us changes. No, we cannot prove the big bang, or evolution, or even that there are other beings outside of ourselves. However, there is overwhelming evidence in all cases that support them. Thus, as far as any such propostions in their respective classes (emperical for the first two, and directly onservable for the third) can be proven true, they have been, more or less.

So here comes the problem with God. No, as I have clearly implied and now directly concede, the existance of God cannot be proven nor disproven, nor can they be. However, there is also no evidence for God, puting the idea of God in the same category as an infinite number of propositions, all of which are utter speculation, though in the most absolute sense, they cannont be disproven. Now, I could go on as to why people choose to believe God in the face of all this, though that would be quite unnessecary and at that, far to uncertain itself to mean much of anything (after all, the social sciences are much looser than natural sciences, and I'm certainly no psycologist (and committed to irony as well, it would seem)). What this all means is that, if we are attempting to develop an accurate picture of the world (to whatever extent this is even possible), then we cannont include God in this picture.

There is of course, one other question that may be asked. Namely, does belief in God have any positive or negative consequences to humanity? If a belief in God, despite having no basis in anything tangible, has positive consequences for many individuals, it might well be wise for said persons to simply continue their belief in happy oblivion (though, that itself could be quite a lengthy debate). However, while it may have some positive psychological benifits for some, I believe that belief in God rests upon a broad way of thinking that has done innumerable harm to mankind.

The problem, indeeed, is not with a belief in God per se, but that it is symptomatic of a dogmatic way of thought. Dogmatic thinking demands something be true, even when evidence would seem to contradict it, or when there is simply no reason to believe whatever it is is said to be true. All religions are dogmatic (and I include among these the secular religions that were practiced in Nazi Germany and the USSR, and all other totalitarian states), and religion, I believe, has done tremendous harm to mankind. It has hindered our progress in understanding the world (though again, considering that we, if "we" has any meaning at all, are only coming to understand a world which could just as well be a collective illusion), it has caused and justified war and cruelty. Even to a more passive degree, religions are often used as a way to provide a safety in certainty where indeed there is none. However, I believe that in all situations, courage is to be valued above cowerdice, not simply in the physical realm, as is often taught to boys. Furthermore, the dogmatic way of thinking it in direct opposition to science and the scientific way of thinking.

Also, I admit that religion has inspired many great and humane works. However, I also see this as a tremendously sad reflection on human kind, that indeed, we need a belief in a powerful and wrathful God or ever-lasting peace in order to motivate us to be loving and humane towards eachother. Hopefully, I hope we can transcend the trapings of dogmatism, elevate science, reason, and the willingness to accpet uncertainty, and at the same time, continute to find (and indeed, increase) the amount of love for our fellow men in this world. And I believe that as mankind outgrows its religious childhood, the need of a belief in God will evaporate.

Fundamentally, I quote Nietzsche in saying (though I greatly hesitate to do this, because I disagree with a vast amount of what he has to say), "Faith means not even wanting to know the truth." And on a personal note, thank you to Bertrand Russel, for- and I believe this is the technical term- "rocking the house 24/7/365."

Also, I'd like to apologize for any blatant incoherencies, spelling, or general gramatical errors that I missed/was to lazy to read back over. Constructive criticism is of course welcome, while fanatics on eiteher side will be promptly ignored.

Very solid. Everyone should re read this; it is the most compelling post in this thread! He brings forth the only solid and real argument which can be had either FOR or AGAINST the existence of god!: "I think therefore i am"

Obviously it can be debated in circles all day long whether god exists or not, weve just done it. The one inconsistency which allows you to make a valid logical case, and then only to yourself, is this: self awareness. Absent the existence of a divine, supernatural being, humans are simply robots, walking chemical reactions, automatons. This has been covered. You can easily examine your own psyche; the very act of self examination confirms that you are in fact more than an automaton. You could be programmed to self-examine... but what would you find? You cannot be programmed to be aware of your own existence. By this we can say that you are not simply the product of chemical reactions and electrical impulses; that is the majority of our being, but there is undeniably something more, everyone else in the world could be seen as a bundle of flesh but each person is self aware. This makes all the difference. Where does self awareness lead you? Perhaps to a soul, or perhaps to an Anima, but it must lead you somewhere. I am uncertain how Nixonstan finds self awareness and concludes that there is no god; for me the revelation is opposite. Either there is a supernatural god who imbues us with self awareness... or each of us is a god ourselves, of sorts... or of course... every bundle of matter anywhere has self awareness and we dont realize it... druidic religion all over again.

All Scripture is God breathed and is suitable for reproof. The Scriptures cannot be divided. The statements I made concerning fools was from the 1st chapter of Romans and unlike your quote, which is taken out of its context, mine was used properly.



Which I suppose is referring to the quote from Scripture where GOD says that he has mercy on whom he wills, and hardens whom he wills.
Well, that will be no excuse for you, comrade. You and I are free agents, and we do according to our desires. God however is sovereign and has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, yet without doing violence to the free angecies, nor to second causes, but rather establishing them.



No, actually it is eternal and conscious torment in the presence of God and his elect angels and men.

God is patient, obviously. You are still alive. Its not too late to repent.
If it is foreordained, then why repent? God must know why he doesn't believe in Him, doesn't He? What point is there of threatening someone to repent, if they don't think they are doing anything wrong? If he lives a good life, respects others, then what sin has he committed? What reason would God have for sending him to Hell? Because he went against the beleifs of the maasses?

I would like to see some evidence.

More interestingly, there are lots of mental factors of the brain that we are only beginning to discover which concern religious (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml) experience (http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm).


Sorry, tried to google that one, couldn't do it. Although, I have tried to talk to a friend of mine, who is a phsychologist, about the possibility in a person changing, despite both their concious and subconcious mind being resistant to it. She decided to research it, found almost nothing, and then reported that she honestly didn't know how those people could have been changed that quickly. I leave that up to speculation for you. :D

If you're going to take the old Cogito ergo sum route, just remember that Descarte himself found himself "proving" the existance of god....

Actually many many christians believe that god doesn't want people to "burn in hell". They merely refuse paradise and choose sin. Which ties in to another argument. The scriptures relating to "hell fire" is actually seen by many as a metaphor. It describes a cities junkyard that burns its trash, and likens this to eternal seperation from god. It's not actually burning so much as an eternity of living in sin. Or you know, maybe hell is filled with burning garbage. That would suck.

Oh and Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck, you are not helping this argument. Your flamebait post is merely derailing what is almost a civilized discussion.



Yes, that is what many of us believe. But it isn't a living in eternity in sin, it is more about living in eternity without the goodness of god that you failed to recognize all of your lives. That is pretty much the gist of Hell.

http://www.dragon-tails.com/comics/archive.php?date=040511

Camdean.. ugh. You have no understanding of religion. You think it's just angels dancing in the clouds and flying around the Earth. You live in the MOVIES. You can NOT judge something that you do not understand. Therefore, if you really want to say that God does not exist, at least try to understand Him first. Then come back and we'll talk.

All Scripture is God breathed and is suitable for reproof. The Scriptures cannot be divided. The statements I made concerning fools was from the 1st chapter of Romans and unlike your quote, which is taken out of its context, mine was used properly.


What context?


Which I suppose is referring to the quote from Scripture where GOD says that he has mercy on whom he wills, and hardens whom he wills.
Well, that will be no excuse for you, comrade. You and I are free agents, and we do according to our desires. God however is sovereign and has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, yet without doing violence to the free angecies, nor to second causes, but rather establishing them.


Not an answer.


No, actually it is eternal and conscious torment in the presence of God and his elect angels and men.


Is it a sadist too?

--------
Camdean.. ugh. You have no understanding of religion. You think it's just angels dancing in the clouds and flying around the Earth. You live in the MOVIES. You can NOT judge something that you do not understand. Therefore, if you really want to say that God does not exist, at least try to understand Him first. Then come back and we'll talk.

Funny how the Bible doesn't seem to support that idea very much. What with, people burying their dung because they were afraid god would step in it and such. Biblical literalists would also like to have a word with you. Yours is just another re-interpretation.

If you're going to take the old Cogito ergo sum route, just remember that Descarte himself found himself "proving" the existance of god...."Descartes, instead of saying, as he could have, time, or the passing of time itself is God, he only used it as a small portion of his argument. Descartes while recognizing the time thing and apparently not recognizing the possibility of evolution gave his ontological argument existence is a perfection, and as God is described as the most perfect being. It follows that God must exist."
I think I need a little more proof than that.

I would like to see some evidence.

More interestingly, there are lots of mental factors of the brain that we are only beginning to discover which concern religious (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml) experience (http://www.bidstrup.com/mystic.htm).


I read those articles, but I think they are both missing something. Even if I may experience some form of epilepsy, I still am randier than a goat in a small pen during mating season. I doubt that will ever change ;)

That also makes very little sense, especially if these experiences are developed by people that were not previously christians. Are you suddenly to tell me that the vast majority of the population suffers from epileptic seizures, but that the right conditions need to be found first? Because, otherwise, that argument disproves itself.

I raised a possiblity, nothing more. It is not without its merit though.

Sorry about that. That is a totally unfounded Southern-Baptist belief. I apologize sincerely for my colleague preaching such dogmatic tripe.

Please stay neuteral, I have made at least a good effort, with my experiences, to show the existence of god. Don't let some foolish 13 year old kid piss you off.

Actually, oh heretic, I am not a Southern Baptist, and what I have spoken is orthodox. Practically every word you've typed is pure drivel. The kind of thing the most ignorant of "Christians" could possibly say.

Unfounded? Hmmm, I wonder if the Scriptures say what I just said , ah yes, they do ...

Romans1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who SUPPRESS THE TRUTH by their wickedness, since what may be known about God IS PLAIN TO THEM, because God MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood from what has been made, so that men are WITHOUT EXCUSE. For although they KNEW GOD, they neither glorified him as God nor fave thanks to him, but their THINKING BECAME FUTILE AND THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED. Although they claimed to be wise, they BECAME FOOLS and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Unfounded indeed.

Chalk another one up for the Calvinists, baby!
Sola Fide, Sola Christi, Sola Gloria Deo

I raised a possiblity, nothing more. It is not without its merit though.


I would venture to say that it is without merit. Simply because this type of experience seems to be derived at a certain point in one's own christianity, and that it happens in enormous regularity.

Well, if you are going to try to prove or even make a case of some sort for the existence of God, you have to start with proving something other than God, or maybe a characteristic of His, it seems. Like... eternity. We all have to agree that eternity exists. Not saying an afterlife, just the idea of eternity. If not, then that would be saying that first there was nothing. Not even a single electron; Nothing for an electron to exist in, and then something appeared from nowhere, caused by nothing. And that, regardless of what you have faith in (religion, science, reason...), is utterly ridiculous. So something has always existed. Rather than believing in the near mathematical impossibility of random gases, liquids, and solid matter that just were coming together on their own, resulting in the vastness of space and all that is in it, I choose to believe that somebody (using the term loosely), likely not made out of our idea of matter, has always existed, will always exist, and has a reason for doing what He did. Just something I was forced to think about during a down period in my life.

What a silly debate.

God can not be "proven", nor can he be "disproven". It's called Faith, and you either have it, or you don't.

But if you don't have faith, the reasons must be more then "because he does not exist". Because we have no proof that he doesn't.

Remember, God does not have to prove himself to you, me, or anyone. How foolish we are to think that he should come down and show us who he is. That is not his job, and it never has been.

He's laid out what you should believe in in the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. It's up to you to put faith in it. And if you choose not to, then that's your choice. God did give us free will after awhile.

But do not be so arrogant as to say God does not exist. You simply don't know.

Actually, oh heretic, I am not a Southern Baptist, and what I have spoken is orthodox. Practically every word you've typed is pure drivel. The kind of thing the most ignorant of "Christians" could possibly say.

Unfounded? Hmmm, I wonder if the Scriptures say what I just said , ah yes, they do ...

Romans1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who SUPPRESS THE TRUTH by their wickedness, since what may be known about God IS PLAIN TO THEM, because God MADE IT PLAIN TO THEM. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been CLEARLY SEEN, being understood from what has been made, so that men are WITHOUT EXCUSE. For although they KNEW GOD, they neither glorified him as God nor fave thanks to him, but their THINKING BECAME FUTILE AND THEIR FOOLISH HEARTS WERE DARKENED. Although they claimed to be wise, they BECAME FOOLS and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Unfounded indeed.

Chalk another one up for the Calvinists, baby!
Sola Fide, Sola Christi, Sola Gloria Deo



Ah, that explains all of that predestination crap. I have never before been called a heretic, but as I remember, didn't the Apostles themselves become swept up into the glory of god? And fall on their faces worshiping? Even King David danced around naked while in God's presence! You say that I am only experiencing emotion? Ha!!! The way that you are talking shows what you truly are, a Pharisee!

That's right, you are a member of the very sect our lord and savior was trying to escape from! The petty, sniveling, religious, hypocritical ones that have taken a hold of our country and our religion!

BTW, Calvin was a fool who started a theocracy. Luther kicks his tight little ass.

I would venture to say that it is without merit. Simply because this type of experience seems to be derived at a certain point in one's own christianity, and that it happens in enormous regularity.

So? I also wonder how many christians have actually had an "experience" as well people of other religions and to what degree. TLSes are not the only thing that can mess with your brain or make you see weird shit.

You know how people used to see succumbi/incubus or that demons that would sit on their chest and made it difficult to breathe? What really happened? Sleep paralysis. Alien abductions are also a likely product of this phenomenon, what people see is influenced by their culture.

Hmmm...
*Builds a time machine*

Now we can REALLY see who kicks who's ass.

Religious figures fighting. How much do you think that would sell for?

Ah, that explains all of that predestination crap.

BTW, Calvin was a fool who started a theocracy. Luther kicks his tight little ass.

And who is the fool who thinks they can claim Luther and dis predestination? In fact, who is the fool who claims to be a Christian and dismisses God's sovereign, loving predestinating election of some sinners to salvation, and his kind providence over all creation?

In fact the only person who does not believe that God is sovereign is an athiest.

You've obviously read neither Calvin nor Luther. They were in very small disagreement. One of the few the comes to mind is "consubstantiation" which Luther adhered to and to which Calvin did not, as neither do most evangelical Christians today. Modern "Lutheranism" is that of Phillip Melancthon and is Arminian in theology (in other words heretical).

Do yourself a favour before you make an even bigger fool of yourself, and do your homework on the Reformation and the Reformers before opening your cake hole.

I'm hitting the sack.

I put $1,000 on Luther! He would be drunk enough to kick Calvin's ass any day.

But on that issue? on the TLS's? If there was some form of outside influence (drugs, religious people just being insane, poisoned water, whatever) that still doesn't explain how it wouldn't manifest itself in other member's of the community. At this point, we are arguing about hallucinations, which are a touchy subject to begin with. All that you have to know was that I (and many of my colleagues) experience these "hallucinations" and depending on how much or little god matters to me at that point in my life, these "hallucinations" are either stronger or weaker. But more importantly, they happen to most of the member's of my congregation, so unless TLS's are a global, human phenomenon, then it wouldn't be possible without the existence of god.

And who is the fool who thinks they can claim Luther and dis predestination? In fact, who is the fool who claims to be a Christian and dismisses God's sovereign, loving predestinating election of some sinners to salvation, and his kind providence over all creation?

In fact the only person who does not believe that God is sovereign is an athiest.

You've obviously read neither Calvin nor Luther. They were in very small disagreement. One of the few the comes to mind is "consubstantiation" which Luther adhered to and to which Calvin did not, as neither do most evangelical Christians today. Modern "Lutheranism" is that of Phillip Melancthon and is Arminian in theology (in other words heretical).

Do yourself a favour before you make an even bigger fool of yourself, and do your homework on the Reformation and the Reformers before opening your cake hole.

I'm hitting the sack.


And there goes the greatest load of crockery I have ever heard. I studied, in GREAT DETAIL the history of Western Europe, with a very large emphasis on the Reformation.

Luther was staunchly opposed to the ideas of Calvin. While he recognized the Sovereignty of God, he believed that the only path to heaven was through a person's faith. Nothing else will grant heaven to you, according to Luther. So here, we will have to agree to disagree. But I still think your Calvinism is a load of crockery, and the fact that Calvinism spawned many of the worst governments and societies in Europe, suggests that, on a whole, it was not ordained by god.

Camdean.. ugh. You have no understanding of religion. You think it's just angels dancing in the clouds and flying around the Earth. You live in the MOVIES. You can NOT judge something that you do not understand. Therefore, if you really want to say that God does not exist, at least try to understand Him first. Then come back and we'll talk.
Wow.. i'm impressed. You could read my intire knowegle on religion, simplely from a link and a statemant simpley saying "A little off topic".

But... there was a time I went to Church, There was a time where I read te bible, there was a time I praied to the Hevaens. But as I grew I watching TLC and ther Discovery channel more then I watch cartoons, and I grew wiser,and smartier. Soon I found my self Questioning my faith, "there's no proof" I said to myself. I remaned in a state of Question for almost a year, and only for so long because I though Chrismas only for those of faith (me being about 8 at the time Chirsmas was THE thing I waited all year for). But on the Night of boxing day, I Praiyed for hours asking god to send me even the smallest sign to prove he was real. Nothing. not a bug at the window, or a strange sound in the distance. All was the same as it have for the last week. So my faith was lost. That is a day I will never forget.

But I have for comlently shunned faith. my mind is open and I do Listen to the other side. But for cring out lound I was just relieving some of the tension that I knew a furom like this would hold for some people. beside people can think better when there mind is clear of emotions.

Wow.. i'm impressed. You could read my intire knowegle on religion, simplely from a link and a statemant simpley saying "A little off topic".

But... there was a time I went to Church, There was a time where I read te bible, there was a time I praied to the Hevaens. But as I grew I watching TLC and ther Discovery channel more then I watch cartoons, and I grew wiser,and smartier. Soon I found my self Questioning my faith, "there's no proof" I said to myself. I remaned in a state of Question for almost a year, and only for so long because I though Chrismas only for those of faith (me being about 8 at the time Chirsmas was THE thing I waited all year for). But on the Night of boxing day, I Praiyed for hours asking god to send me even the smallest sign to prove he was real. Nothing. not a bug at the window, or a strange sound in the distance. All was the same as it have for the last week. So my faith was lost. That is a day I will never forget.

But I have for comlently shunned faith. my mind is open and I do Listen to the other side. But for cring out lound I was just relieving some of the tension that I knew a furom like this would hold for some people. beside people can think better when there mind is clear of emotions.
I love it how they weren't even talking to you.

How the hell does thinking for oneself make one a "sheep"?

Three Words: Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Two Words: Star Trek
One Word: Experience

So many people I know have resolved to become atheists because they're sure they've never experienced anything that constitutes to the conventional experience of God (sudden miraculous geyser of money, 2,000,000 foot long rod to maintain world peace, disembodied voice-in-the-clouds). Science does make a very good escape from religion since it explains off most things into this tidy, logical ball of tidy logic and reduces the rest of things as either "yet to be solved", "needing further data" or totally nonexisting altogether.

While God is more than capable of pulling off a few miracles now and then (as he does on a regular basis), we should be aware that God is as much God over the natural as he is in the Supernatural. Combine this with the tenets of free will and what the Bible actually says (the conventional God-image is waaaaay off my friends. For God's sake, read the Book before you say anything!) you'd be able to grasp a general idea of God.

By the way, I know God exists because he continues to manifest in my life personally. There are things in man that shouldn't be there but they are and they are neither imaginary nor ar they quantifiable. They are forces that control but they do not register in any known meter. Science, as any truly wise scientist knows, is incomplete because not everything can be percieved. Where man's wisdom stops, God is.

Thats it ive heard to many people claim its true so go on here is your only chance to proove it..
One's inability to prove god's existence only matters if existence is limited to only those things one can prove. If existence is greater than that, though, then god exist (or fails to exist) whether it can be proven or not.

But... there was a time I went to Church, There was a time where I read te bible, there was a time I praied to the Hevaens. But as I grew I watching TLC and ther Discovery channel more then I watch cartoons, and I grew wiser,and smartier. Soon I found my self Questioning my faith, "there's no proof" I said to myself. I remaned in a state of Question for almost a year, and only for so long because I though Chrismas only for those of faith (me being about 8 at the time Chirsmas was THE thing I waited all year for). But on the Night of boxing day, I Praiyed for hours asking god to send me even the smallest sign to prove he was real. Nothing. not a bug at the window, or a strange sound in the distance. All was the same as it have for the last week. So my faith was lost. That is a day I will never forget.



Maybe God was testing your faith, and evidently you failed the test. Whenever people in the Bible asked for a miracle or sign Jesus always refused, thats not His way, believing in something because you see some signor miracle that nearly forces you to believe it isn't the way to go about things when you want someone to freely choose to be with you. It would be like me going up to my parents and saying "If you love me you will let me smoke and be glad about it." they could do it and it might show love, but they know what's the best for me (my grandfather and two aunts died of lung cancer) and they wont let me do it or aprove of me doing it just because I say I need a sign of there love to me. And god is very different than a made up person in the clouds, I lived most of my life in my mind, I stopped living in the real world for a while and I felt like the people and places that I made up were all that mattered, nothing on the outside could phase me or change me, because to me it wasn't real. But even through my years of living and being with things that I had made up I never felt anything near what I feel when I talk with God or am in His pressence. He is the only thing strong enough in the world to make me cry, I went from 13 to nearly 18 without crying once, and now He and nothing else can break me down, with the things or people made up in my mind, they could never affect me like that even in far more emotional settings or plots. And although I've never seen God I have seen demons with my own eyes, and my mother felt it and even my unborn litle brother felt it and kicked in the womb. I'm not asking you to believe in a god, I'm asking you to trust me on what I'm saying and try to understand that.

http://www.gotquestions.org/earth-age.html


XD

Wow.. i'm impressed. You could read my intire knowegle on religion, simplely from a link and a statemant simpley saying "A little off topic".

But... there was a time I went to Church, There was a time where I read te bible, there was a time I praied to the Hevaens. But as I grew I watching TLC and ther Discovery channel more then I watch cartoons, and I grew wiser,and smartier. Soon I found my self Questioning my faith, "there's no proof" I said to myself. I remaned in a state of Question for almost a year, and only for so long because I though Chrismas only for those of faith (me being about 8 at the time Chirsmas was THE thing I waited all year for). But on the Night of boxing day, I Praiyed for hours asking god to send me even the smallest sign to prove he was real. Nothing. not a bug at the window, or a strange sound in the distance. All was the same as it have for the last week. So my faith was lost. That is a day I will never forget.

But I have for comlently shunned faith. my mind is open and I do Listen to the other side. But for cring out lound I was just relieving some of the tension that I knew a furom like this would hold for some people. beside people can think better when there mind is clear of emotions.

What sign were you after, though? Do you know how God operates. Please don't tell me that no one can since he has freely revealed himself to Man throughout and since the Bible.

Firstly, God is not to be tested. Jesus refused to do magic tricks for both Satan and King Herod for that exact reason. God, as part of the Eden Expulsion Deal, does not act for people who have no faith. Faith is the prerequisite of grace. On the otherhand, he has been prompt to heal the bodies and souls of all who asked and believed of righteous things.

Secondly, God does not act out of his will which includes all things that are right... which means they don't have to be particularly pleasant.

Thirdly, Sin separates us from God. If someone lives in sin, we disallow God to act through us. God created the natural order and is faithful in keeping it.

Fourthly, God does not speak audibly (though he can). He speaks from within us. A heart intuned to God can hear more things from his or her conscience. The conscience says more, consoles more, it even teaches people what to say in certain occassions even without having a degree in Theology (such as this) or without having to be old and rigid (I'm 20). Man, so distracted by everything elso, usually doesn't listen. They wait for glorious events to happen in the sky while they muffle the voice of God speaking from within them with a metaphorical sock.

Fifthly, it's "Smarter" not "Smartier".

IRT first post, without even bothering to read this thread:

Here we go again. You don't believe, he believes, I believe, she doesn't believe, nothing can change that because believers are too entrenched and non-believers are too cynical. Asking for advice on faith from the Internet also isn't the best way to go about life :rolleyes:.

You must be a baptist. You have to realize, the only thing that makes our religion different from all the others is that change in ours happens instantly, and it happens outside of a person's control. If you are going to dismiss the only thing that makes christianity unique, then fine. Rely on your faith alone, but I will be relying on my personal experience.

Hey, whatch it! Baptist are okay, and there are alot of things that sperate us from other religions, a whole bunch, not just being set on fire by God once you are saved and becoming cleansed of sins (through emersion of course ;) ).

The simple fact that you are asking for proof of God shows that he/she exists. Even the most devoted Christian will admit God is simply a presence! People talk to God, they do things for him/her, and they make major life changes to please God. Asking for proof of God's existence is like asking for proof of nothing. We can't see, hear, taste, touch, or smell nothing but nothing obviously exists. God is a reason to behave, an escape when people need to be forgiven, and a comfort when they need stability. God is many different things to many different people. Whether you are Atheists or not you have to admit that as long as people believe in an idea it must have some form of existence. Therefore every time God is mentioned we are validating his/her presence. As long as people believe in something (especially an idea) it exists.

Compare it to all that science that exists in the world. What we know is very basic compared what there actually is.
Duh. That's why research continues and continues to expand our base of knowledge.

Who are you to say that science is infalliable and defies religious proofs? It's a personal belief, get over it. Let people believe what they want to believe when it comes to the spiritual level.
What are "religious proofs"? And I never claimed that science is infallible, and nor does any genuine scientist. There's a reason that things fundamentally considered to be facts always remain "theories", because there's always the possibility of being incorrect. Good science acknowledges the possibility of error, and as time goes on, it tests itself and throws away incorrect hypotheses. And of course, people can believe what they want. But believing that someone isn't dying of cancer doesn't mean they aren't.

But then again, when we're talking about something spiritual, why do we need to approach the problem from a physical point of view?
Because as long as you're treating God as a being that exists and exerts (or exerted) influence in any kind of tangible way, the issue is being approached from a physical point of view. If you're treating God as your own personal emotional creation, that's different.

One's inability to prove god's existence only matters if existence is limited to only those things one can prove. If existence is greater than that, though, then god exist (or fails to exist) whether it can be proven or not.
Booya!

IRT first post, without even bothering to read this thread:

Here we go again. You don't believe, he believes, I believe, she doesn't believe, nothing can change that because believers are too entrenched and non-believers are too cynical. Asking for advice on faith from the Internet also isn't the best way to go about life :rolleyes:.

I dont know about that, just this morning I had a kid E-mail me back whom I had been talking with only on the internet and he thanked me for letting the Holy Spirit work through me to change his life and open his eyes thanks to me giving him some advice on how not to go about a certain thing, like feeling you are cold and frozen and seperated from the rest of the world. And I've recieved tons of help from people of places like this (though more Christian and smaller ;) )

It is not an axiom if it is reductible, as I've shown. As well, to be axiom it must be self-refuting to try to disprove it. It is not self-refuting to say "God does not exist." however.

It is self-refuting to try to disprove it. To disprove the statement "God does exist," you have to presuppose that "God does not exist."

But I feel we're talking about slighty different things here. I'm thinking along the lines of an axiom in a logical system. Like the christian presuppositonist arguments you see.

So am I. An axiom is a statement that is assumed, but cannot be proven. It is then used in the rest of a given argument. A theist presupposes that there is a god because they feel that there is one. An atheist presupposes that there is not a god because they believe there is not one. However, both statements are equally unprovable.

I certainly don't take "God does not exist" as an axiom. Anyone who does with either side is obviously being irrational and begging the question.

You are throwing a lot of terms out, but you are ignoring the point. The existence of an omnipotent god can, by definition, be neither proven nor disproven (unless said deity decides to make itself undoubtedly known). With no proof either way, one must assume one or the other. I assume that there is a god and that is a presupposition for any theological arguments I make. You assume that there is not and that is a presupposition for your argument here.

I dont know about that, just this morning I had a kid E-mail me back whom I had been talking with only on the internet and he thanked me for letting the Holy Spirit work through me to change his life and open his eyes thanks to me giving him some advice on how not to go about a certain thing, like feeling you are cold and frozen and seperated from the rest of the world. And I've recieved tons of help from people of places like this (though more Christian and smaller ;) )
For the most part, though, that's the exception to the rule :(. I'm not too happy about it, either, but not much I can do about it... I try to keep my work face-to-face. But good show on spreading the Word.

well fuk u god does exist but it cannot be prooved but saying that u cant proove he doesnt. and by the way no scientists in the world can prove god doesnt exist. and christians arent some big bible bashing hippies ok 2 be a christian is 2 hav a relationship with god almost like a friendship

well fuk u god does exist but it cannot be prooved but saying that u cant proove he doesnt. and by the way no scientists in the world can prove god doesnt exist. and christians arent some big bible bashing hippies ok 2 be a christian is 2 hav a relationship with god almost like a friendship
What an example YOU are :rolleyes:.

well fuk u god does exist but it cannot be prooved but saying that u cant proove he doesnt. and by the way no scientists in the world can prove god doesnt exist. and christians arent some big bible bashing hippies ok 2 be a christian is 2 hav a relationship with god almost like a friendshipWell that was an intelligent statement of position... mmmhmmm. </sarcasm>

By the laws of Entropy (nasty little scientific conundrum, really), nothing should have started to exist because, quite frankly, everything should have started disintigrating before they were ever formed - matter and energy. I wonder how, in God's Black Universe, could matter and energy (apparently sprouting out from nowhere) begin existing if the energy needed for them to sustain orderly exsistence were nonexistent.

Strange paradox yet proven by Scientific Law.

Quit saying that God cannot be proven. After all, the Bible says that he's been all to enthusiastic in leaving his calling card on everything. I wonder why so few people ever return the call...

By the way, not all "Christians" love God. Only the real ones do.

lol

First of all, calling the entirety of science "simple" is a laugh. Secondly, who are you to say that the gravity-causing elves aren't spiritual, supernatural, beyond and greater than us?


No. Mathematics are involved, but science is also not confined to scientific knowledge. Science is an approach to studying and gathering information.


Eyewitnesses are testing to events that they have physically witnessed. You'll notice the legal system doesn't put people who "just feel" that someone has or has not done something on the stand.

I know it's not "simple" (I had my butt kicked by a psychology test last week) but that's a relative term, and compared to something tgat either contains everything and connects it or contains more than everything that we know, it is fairly simple.

Your second point is exactly my point, our demensions we exist in (however many you think, from 3 (some people dont believe in time) to dozens) it is only one tiny and simple measurement
as to explaining all that exists beyond what our minds can comprehend.

"Eyewitnesses are testing to events that they have physically witnessed"

Yeah, and I've seen a demon with my own eyes and my mother felt it and my litle brother still in the womb felt it and kicked right before I screamed, and my sister has seen angels, as for seeing God, He says we would be struck dead if we did, so that's kinda hard to do. But Jesus of Nazerith was a historical figure that did exist, there is no denying that fact, what He was is up to the person to decifer.

For the most part, though, that's the exception to the rule :(. I'm not too happy about it, either, but not much I can do about it... I try to keep my work face-to-face. But good show on spreading the Word.

Tell that to Paul, most of hos work was through letters, and I know he loved to be with the churches, but you cant be all over the ancient world at once, and I cant be in Colorodo, Washington, Florida, home, and college at the same time. So this has to do.

how do u no the goblin's green if its invisible?

And who is the fool who thinks they can claim Luther and dis predestination? In fact, who is the fool who claims to be a Christian and dismisses God's sovereign, loving predestinating election of some sinners to salvation, and his kind providence over all creation?

In fact the only person who does not believe that God is sovereign is an athiest.

Believing that God is sovereign and believing that God did not give human beings free will are two very different things. If God has decided who will sin and who will not, who will be saved and who will not - then there is no free will.