NationStates Jolt Archive

So, everybody bitches about America. And how, practically everything bad and negative in the world is her fault. She enslaved Africans, She killed Indians, She Supported Dictators, She Supported Terrorists, She exploits poor workers, She eats Babies, etc etc.


So I was thinking about how great the World would be without the US. Because it's obvious that the only reason we have such problems in the world today is because of her.



So... Imagine, that before a bit before WWII, something happens in America, and a nasty Civil War breaks out again. Pretty much, the US is split in 5 factions fighting it out. They're pretty much out of the International Arena. Forever. Because of this Japan doesn't bother bombing Pearl Harbor. The Western Coast Coaltion of America seems to be doing the job for them.


SO. Germany does it's thing. French bend over and take it. And Britian bravely tries to stand up by itself. Britian is able to defend itself in an Air War. So Germany sets its eyes on Russia.


It's too bad that Russia will not get any help from America in the form of Weapons, and War Vehicles. Without the support they're unable to delay the Germans for as long, and before you know it the Germans made it to Moscow.


It takes awhile for them to Pacify Russia, and those crazy Communists. But after a Few Ethnic Cleansings in a city or two, the Russians sort of get the idea.


So now, Germany focuses its attention on England again. Those damn British.

Attacking England is bloody, and they put up a good fight. No ground is really made. But wait! It's now 1946 and the Germans have the Atomic Bomb! Oh shit England! You lose.

Probably one more Atomic Bomb to pacify those damn British. (It's a small island, so they don't have to go overboard)


In the Pacific Theater Japan does it's thing of massacring and enslaving the other "lesser" asian peoples. Much like they did in the Philipines, China, and Korea. But now they made it into India too. They met up with their German allies, who Breezed through the Middle East, in Iran.


So now we have complete Axis control of Europe, Asia, and North Africa. There probably isn't that much of a reason to go into Australia, unless it begins to pose a threat.

Oh yeah, and no more JEWS! Or.. Disabled people! Or... Gays!Or...Eastern Europeans!Or...Blacks! Woooo!


I have no doubt that that damn Pesky Terrorism problem will crop up. Especially in Vietnam, or the Middle East. But you see, where America fails, Germany and Japan Excell at! It's ATROCITY TIME!

So the Vietnamese are acting up? Don't they know, Germany has the bomb? Oh look, no more Hanoi.

In the Middle East, like Iraq and Iran, you don't want to drop bombs, because then you lose all that valuable Oil.

So instead, you simply go door to door with your Gestapo squad and kill everyone. They'll get the message eventually.


In North America, The US is just fucked up. Mexico decided to take advantage of the situation and reaquire the West; California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

Thanks to the fabulous Mexican Government, it doesn't take very long to makes these states as Great as Tijuana! Hoo Ra!

The only country to note is Canada, who is busy preparing defenses just in case the Axis decide they don't have enough territory.

But honestly, I don't think Canada will last very long.


So, in the end, We have a whole shit load of dead people.


The end.

that was entertaining.

Sweet. Thank god, finally a fellow American who likes America :eek:. Keep up the patriotism, dude.

that was hilarious
and correct


<----Fellow American

Meh .... I think I'd enjoy living in the Tribal Republic of the Native Americans.

I bet the US would be a lot greener and cities wouldn't be so damn huge.

Always remember: No towers = No targets.

And so the Lord said the Trolls will come...

I'm an American by the way... in my mind anyway O_o

Christ on a Cracker!

I like saying that... Christ on a Cracker! Christ on a Cracker! Christ on a Cracker!

Anyway, ya ok, so no U.S. Germany would still not win, because D-day would still occur, although on a much smaller scale. See I don’t know if you know this, but the U.S weren’t the only ones on D-Day. The English would still support the Russians. The fighting would last a few more years, and more people would die. Japan, rushes through Asia, conquering everything. Nothing lasts forever and they crumble. No cold war because Russia would be attacking countries on a much smaller scale, and no propaganda in the U.S. Mexico has its colonies back, and they no one has to compete against the U.S in the world markets, and no arms race. The economies are much healthier. Japan eventually falls, and the U.S is eventually reunited, but it is nothing after years of fighting. So there you go. No U.S= more dead, healthier economies, the EU gains more power=the world eventually unites under the EU flag. O, and Japan shrinks, and will eventually collapse. So, nothing much different. O, a big thing, terrorism would be at an all time low because the U.S wouldn’t be meddling in the affairs of Arab countries. Israel may still be a country, but without U.S money, it to will eventually fall.

PS: I like America, it is my home. I love this country, but I do think the end, or at least a cataclysm is coming to this country.

hmm, I just thought about it, but this very well could've been how it turned out. I'm glad america did what they did. We are a great nation indeed. If you don't like america, then move. If you don't live here, then just shut up. Not to sound conceted, I'm just a patriot. I'll stand by my country.

True but without the US it could happen that Russia comes out victoreiouse in WW2 and the hole world falls to the russians
BTW anyone here from alternate history boards

Meh, Germany would have lost anyway or at least have been fought to a stalemate. The Soviets were holding their own long, long before D-Day and were pretty much handing Germany its ass on a platter (though at a considerable rate of attrition for themselves).

The rest of it is poorly thought out alternative history. Germany probably would have found its newly created massive empire untenable, with conquered peoples seriously outnumbering the native German conquerers. Something similar would eventually happen to the Japanese, I strongly suspect, as the Kuomintang and the CPC (more the latter) were still putting up a serious fight on the Chinese mainland.

This whole setup is more like a strawman, really. No one here HATES the United States as a geopolitical concept, or really hates its people and wants to see it wiped off the face of the earth. Plenty of us, myself included, would like to see it run by different people under a very different economic paradigm.

Always remember: No towers = No targets.

Teepees never stopped us from making targets. No really, if the US was not around then everyone would be bitchin about someone else and so on and on and on. Germany, Japan and Italy would rule the world. Well until they killed each other.

Lets not forget America being the first successful example of democracy (in modern times)...I mean, it's not like the french got their idea for a revolution from us or anything...It's not like we ended the British Empire, or saved the french's ass in WWII, or stopped the USSR...

Lets not forget America being the first successful example of democracy...I mean, it's not like the french got their idea for a revolution from us or anything...It's not like we ended the British Empire, or saved the french's ass in WWII, or stopped the USSR...
*cough* Greece, Britain, France, Germany *cough*

*cough* Greece, Britain, France, Germany *cough*
Ok, Greece I got covered (see my post...edited)

Britain wasn't a democracy. They were moving that direction, but we got it there. France got it's ideas from Lafayet (sp) when he got back from helping our Revolution. They followed our example. Germany wasn't a democracy for a while...hell, it was hardly a country for a while...

Regardless, we came first. That has to count for something.

Jesus, it's no wonder the rest of the world can't stand us, when all we Americans can seem to do is whine, ad nauseum.

Get over it! :rolleyes:

Topics like this make me miss the old sarcasm-rolling-eyes smiley.

Jesus, it's no wonder the rest of the world can't stand us, when all we Americans can seem to do is whine, ad nauseum.

Get over it! :rolleyes:
That's not America, per se, it's the rich...And since America is the richest, laziest, and fattest nation...we whine the most...

Without america Britain may have not won the war but do you think people would let it lie..

Saying that we would be speaking german in Scotland and id be mumbling something like ..

Scheizen Licker

So thank you Yanks for coming to us in the end (after a long delay) in the war to even the numbers of good against bad basically :)

:rolleyes: Topics like this make me miss the old sarcasm-rolling-eyes smiley.
That one? Or the moving one on the old boards?

Topics like this make me miss the old sarcasm-rolling-eyes smiley.Get over it! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
That one? Or the moving one on the old boards?
The moving one on the old boards. It just felt more effective.

Alright, how about this.

D-Day happens on a smaller scale, as a result, Germany holds off for longer, thus finishing final development on The Bomb. Blammo, end of World.

And then theres Japan, imagine what would've happened there if we hadn't occupied all their time

Alright, how about this.

D-Day happens on a smaller scale, as a result, Germany holds off for longer, thus finishing final development on The Bomb. Blammo, end of World.

And then theres Japan, imagine what would've happened there if we hadn't occupied all their time

This is where my sig comes into play LoL what a horrible thought

:sniper:

I'm just disappointed we were so good at ending WWII. I wasn't born until 1968, but it would have been great if it could have lasted until I was old enough to be drafted....bang bang bang....

:sniper: :mp5:

I ain't never got to shoot me no Germans n' Jap's...shucks...

Bang bang bang...

:sniper: :mp5: :gundge:

:upyours:

Perrian, you frighten me.

Also, the Soviets didn't "hold their own" against the germans, the Russian winter WASTED the german army

While the Deutsche War Maschine would have done a lot more damage in Europe,the Japanese war effort would have sputtered out relatively quickly.While the Japanese had a substantial industrial infrastructure they were still imitators rather than innovators.Much of their technology and raw materials came from their friends in the good ol' U.S.of A.
General Electric,Standard Oil and many other large corporations based in the U.S. and Western Europe made tons of money selling the technology and materials to countries that would,in a few short years,turn around and start using against them. :gundge:

Well, lets for the sake of argument assume Germany takes over Great Britain and Russia. There is no way they could have held both those countries and continued the war in the Far East and Africa and take out whats left of the USA. They would not have enough manpower. The British and Russians would have fought a gorrilla war and tied up a large number of german forces. And if any of you have read medical reports from that time Hitler's health was in decline and he would not have lived very much longer. So Hitler dies in...1948. As the centerpoint of the extremist wing of NAZI party the extremists would get replaced by more resonable minds and they would probably negociate a truce with all nations concered. they might even have given up territory to see that happen and then maybe fought another war in 10-15 years, nut then again with nuclear weapons in the hands of others (the americans couldnt keep it a secret so why assume the Germans could) they might have been forced to fight an economic war.
The world would be better off with the US here. but we would pefer if you guys rethought your internal and foriegn policies. It may be your country but the rest of the world needs to live with you. Your not Oceania yet, you donet have a self contained economy. So you need us as much or more as we need you.

Alleysia, to even suggest that ze germs could win the war against Soviet(yes,Soviet,not Russia) proves your lack of knowledge on this subject.

Soviet would easily reach Berlin without the help of the United States.
The question is what would they after that,would they go for France?
Soviets right outside Berlin would no doubt force Hitler to withdraw forces from France to defend Germany. When they get crushed,France with the help from Great Britain would easily remove the rest of the Germans(if there still are any there)
Would Soviet continue the war and march into France and then perhaps aim for England? Thats anyones guess, but Soviet DID leave northern Norway after kicking out the Germans.(I'm from Norway,dont come say you saved our asses in WW2,we owe it to our commrades to the east).

Without a American presence on the old continent, the capitalistic propaganda-machine wouldnt effect us, only the Soviets'.
This would probably leave us all a little bit more socialistic,which I doubt America would like.

In real life,the United States sent some troops over here, but it was very clear that Hitler was gonna loose. USA only "protected its interests".
Thanks for nothing!

Would Germany have developed the bomb?

http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p11a.htm

I was also quite startled by this.

http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/race.htm

"August 12, 1945 Japanese scientist Nishina tested an atomic bomb near a small island off the coast of Korea. Witnesses said it produced a mushroom shaped cloud a thousand yards wide. Several vessels in the test area were vaporized while others farther away burnt fiercely. At the end of the war, Russia captured the secret Japanese military installations in Konan, Korea. Research shows that a atomic research and development center was run by Japan. "

I had never heard of the Japs doing anything like that, and would have thought it would come up more often. Can anyone verify this or is it misinformation? Does sound dubious to me tho (the research I believe, the actual testing of a bomb I dont.)

The Russian's held they're own because of the winter as someone pointed out. And it seemed like Hitler was content to just apply a little pressure on the eastern front for a while and wait till better weather made the invasion a cake walk. And with the German war Machine and Russia's heavy losses it would have been. But we kinda took his attention with our little threat of a bazillion men of the coast of France and made him reconcentrate his forces.

Most war historians will tell you that without U.S. involvement Hitler, being the patient psycho that he was, would have eventually taken control of all of Europe and Russia and then concentrated all his force on Britain and after a battle where both sides lost many Germany would have come out on top simply because they were ahead in the war manufacturing (not to mention their advancement in the atomic bomb area.) After taking Britian they would have had a good base of operation to assemble a fleet of naval ships and god knows what would have happened after that.

Ok, at first I thought this was some sort of anti-USA thingy... but now i know this guy with the USA all the way so i say, lol that was hilarious

:headbang: :sniper: :mp5: :gundge: hehe little gun guys r cool

This thread is stupid.

There is no way we can tell how the world would turn out today if there was no USA. But I'll have fun doing it.

To all those who think Japan would have been a threat during WWII if the USA wasn't around THINK AGAIN!

Japan became the empire it did during and before WWII because of the Japanese Civil War" and subsequent "Cultural Revolution" during the "Meiji era" in Japan (google some of this and learn) that was instigated by British and American imperialists.

We didn't like being barred by the rulers of Japan from doing business there (we were bastards and they booted us out) so we instigated a civil war that overthrew them and we installed a western style government, school system, the whole shebang. We also made unfair trade laws that gave Japan the stiffy. Eventually the violent nationalists who managed to become political after they figured the assassinations weren't doing much good seized more and more power over the decades until the place became a militaristic empire.

We MADE Japan militaristic as a result of our meddling and as a result we got our own asses bombed by them at Pearl Harbour!

(I've pointed out before how this scenario matches the one in Iraq. Can you say "history repeats"?)

OH and you're also forgetting if there were no USA, there'd be no Al Quada. No CIA to give bin Laden training...much less support for the militaristic Israel. God knows how many dictators would cease to get funding from America...

Get the picture?

And I'm sure whoever would be living in the land that would have been the USA would have stayed in British/French/Spanish hands and would have happily joined the fight in Europe and wouldn't have dicked around for a few years before deciding to join in the fray.

So if there were no US the world would be a better place and Hitler would have gotten his anus raped.

Now shut the fuck up all of you. I have a fever of 103 degrees and am IRRITABLE!

Now shut the fuck up all of you. I have a fever of 103 degrees and am IRRITABLE!

I apologize for the harsh language.

(IRRITABLE)

That was beutiful and correct, at last some pro americans, let me pick on the french especially.

All those that dont like the USA especially the french, take the american dollar, trade, economic, and millatary help and see them cry.

my point is,
The Soviet Union hated us, The cuban dictadorship hates us, The french hate us, our european allys hate us because of bush, but take the dollar away from them and see them cry. If the USA takes all american troops from europe what are they going to do, raise defense spending and taxes to pay for their defense.

Payez votre propre défense en soulevant vos propres impôts.

Of course that would never happen if a liberal were in office. But, seeing as G. W. Bush is going to remain prez for 4 more years, get ready Frenchies...

Soyez préparé pour obtenir baisé vers le haut l'âne et pour l'aimer.

:upyours:

Meh, Germany would have lost anyway or at least have been fought to a stalemate. The Soviets were holding their own long, long before D-Day and were pretty much handing Germany its ass on a platter (though at a considerable rate of attrition for themselves).

The rest of it is poorly thought out alternative history. Germany probably would have found its newly created massive empire untenable, with conquered peoples seriously outnumbering the native German conquerers. Something similar would eventually happen to the Japanese, I strongly suspect, as the Kuomintang and the CPC (more the latter) were still putting up a serious fight on the Chinese mainland.

This whole setup is more like a strawman, really. No one here HATES the United States as a geopolitical concept, or really hates its people and wants to see it wiped off the face of the earth. Plenty of us, myself included, would like to see it run by different people under a very different economic paradigm.


Just a few things, because i've seen it repeated in a few replies, especially about Russia really doing all the work.


For one, i'm not saying America was the only one responsible for defeating the Germans. Without Russia, the Allies would have had a hell of a hard time. But clearly, without the Americans, Russia would have fallen.


The problem was, that when Germany turned on Russia, it was essentially a Crap-Tastic nation. It didn't have the economy needed, it didn't have enough war material(tanks, planes, guns), and it didn't have the technology needed to compete with Germany.


This was solved by the Americans and the whole lend lease deal. We sent loads of crap to Europe before we were involved to help our allies. Without this, Russia would have been even more steamrolled, then it was. And if the Germans had made it to Moscow, then it's Game Over.


But the Allies wouldn't have been succesful if Russia had not fought as hard as it did with the equipment provided to it. They did a good job of draining German resources. So that when the Allies landed, it was alot easier for them.

It wasn't untill later in the war that Russia was able to spew out tanks, and planes, like nothing. They would have never reached that point without American support.





And, as for revolts. Well, I don't really see how this is much of an issue. The Axis Powers have shown their willingness to wipe out whole races of people. Could you imagine how easily it'd be with an Atomic Bomb? Do you think people would revolt so easily when it only takes one plane to obliterate them, and everything in their city?


So we'll say Moscow revolts. Blow up the city. No more revolt. The technology of the 20th Century made the job of suprressing revolts a hell of a lot easier.

my point is,
The Soviet Union hated us, The cuban dictadorship hates us, The french hate us, our european allys hate us because of bush,

You have some problems with the definition of the word 'hate' I think.

The USSR never hated you. They were scared. They thought you'd nuke them just as much as they you. Fear is what drove them.

Castro, yeah, he probably does hate you.

The French don't. They're just French. And you're just American. So similar in many ways, yet so different. Hence the strong feeling. But not outright hate, otherwise, I doubt they'd be members of various organizations with you, and deal with you so politely as an ALLY in international areanas.

Yes, there are some countries that hate you. Places like Saudi Arabia ( though probably not their current rulers ) pakistan ( same deal ) Iran and definitely North Korea.


but take the dollar away from them and see them cry. If the USA takes all american troops from europe what are they going to do, raise defense spending and taxes to pay for their defense.

How about Japan and China give you all your 'dollars' back? Watch the US fall into it's worst ever depression. In case you don't realize what I'm on about, both countries have been buying up your dollar to help stop it falling through the floor value wise. They may well call it the US peso in the future.

The US also doesn't 'give out' many dollars, per capita. You're under the illusion the US props up a lot of countries financially that it doesn't. In fact, it's the other way around. Yes, you do buy and import a lot of stuff. With money you don't have. ( Check your latest trade deficit. )

And by the way...the Dollar is on the way out. The euro is the most common currency in the world now, and it's value is greater. Just wait until OPEC decides to switch from the USD. It could happen.

It's really sad, that when I was in the US, no one there seemed to understand debt, account deficits and the way the world economy worked.:(

I get paid in USD by the way, so trust me, I tend to want to know why I get paid less at times, and more at others. ( though ever since 9/11 it's been a lot less as the USD falls in value. ) so it pains me greatly to have to explain all that. :(

Didn't see anybody bring up the fact that if the USA wasn't a part of the war Mussolini wouldn't have wasted forces trying to fight us. Now, I am not saying the Italian army was anywhere near advanced as the British or Soviet armies (heck, Greece repelled their invasion) but the US troops were the main players in the invasion of Italy under the command of Patton and Bradley. Without this part of the invasion force, less trained/equipped soldiers would have been used, causing more deaths, a longer, drawn out invasion, and Hitler not feeling the need to send troops to reinforce Italy, not alleviating pressure on the already exhausted Soviet troops on the Eastern Front.
So...on the question of if the USA had never been a part of WWII what would the world be like? Well, with no US supplies, no US troops, and no US funding after the war, Europe would be a mess with either a very poorly organized Britain or some sort of fascist government at the helm. In fact if the USA hadn't helped rebuild Europe after WWII it probably still wouldn't have recovered by this day.
Oh, and to whoever said "No USA = No Al Qaeda" or whatever it was (that was the gist). Sure, there might not be an organization called Al Qaeda but there sure as hell would still be terrorism. Believe it or not, the USA isn't the cause of all terrorism on earth, as much as some of you might like to believe. And this goes to whoever might believe the lie that an end to Al Qaeda means an end to terrorism, because it doesn't... :eek:

People tend to dwell on the past... I mean.. damn. Hey, let me ask you something, kay? I save somebody from being hit by a car, and in the future, I can kill an innocent person, or maybe rob bank, or rape perhaps? That's okay, because I saved that guy say, 15 years ago, right? WRONG. Don't get me wrong, I'm jewish, and I hate what Hitler did, and I appreciate the sacrifices the U.S. and other countries made, and I think America played a important part in WW2, but that was SIXTY YEARS AGO. The U.S. has done wrong NOW, and being the economic and political superpower of the day, we could be doing so much more. We could be coorperating with the U.N. to effectively fight those terrorists who murdered people in 9/11 instead of, you know, wasting money, time and lives Iraq while alienating the world which was so willing to help before. Make no mistake, with all our power, we still can't do it alone. If you think the U.S. can do what it wants with no help from anyone else because we're so mighty and powerful, and you say that anybody who disagrees is inadvertently supporting the nazis, then you, sir, are the epitome of why people don't like Americans.

God, people are so....

...severe.

World War II... Cold War... Bleah.

Who cares?

We're assuming that America's Greatest Contributions were in wartime.

We're assuming that there wouldn't be a major difference in power in the world if AMerica wasn't around. Maybe the British Empire would've been more intact. Who knows?

Let's instead note the horrific absence of some of America's Greatest Contributions.

Without The U.S.A., there'd be no light bulb. No telephone. No motion pictures. No television. No Internet.

Though it seems likely that each of these would come in time, who knows what a decade of delay would change:

Europe could all be sitting around right now getting high and staring at their radios instead of bickering on this forum right now. ;)

I have to ask though. On the greater scope of the War on Terror, do you people actually believe that an invasion of Iraq never would have happened? (And hate to point this out, but if we weren't a part of the UN, then it wouldn't exist, believe me...remember a little thing called the League of Nations? Yeah...that worked...)

God, people are so....

...severe.

World War II... Cold War... Bleah.

Who cares?

We're assuming that America's Greatest Contributions were in wartime.

We're assuming that there wouldn't be a major difference in power in the world if AMerica wasn't around. Maybe the British Empire would've been more intact. Who knows?

Let's instead note the horrific absence of some of America's Greatest Contributions.

Without The U.S.A., there'd be no light bulb. No telephone. No motion pictures. No television. No Internet.

Though it seems likely that each of these would come in time, who knows what a decade of delay would change:

Europe could all be sitting around right now getting high and staring at their radios instead of bickering on this forum right now. ;)
Well the light bulb was invented by Joseph Swan an Englishman, check out the real history not the US propoganda.
The Telephone was an Italian as far as I am aware, but living in the US, again check out what has recently been recognised by the US Gov.
As much as it pains me to say the TV was a Scot, again living in the US but a Scot.
The internet as it is today the WWW was an English man!
Next!

Personally I think America shouldn't exist at all. We had no right to rebel against the British, just like the south shouldn't have done it in the Civil War. Hey! Im an English, Swedish Protestant. Watch out do not mess with me. (French, Catholics, Scottish, Russian, Polish, Austrian, Communists, etc.) :sniper:

I'm not getting at the US but distortions of history annoy me. Like the Wright brothers being the first to fly.
No they were the first to fly a controled powered aircraft.
About eight years earlier a French man flew the first powered plane.
But if you shout hard enough and long enough I suppose your version of facts will become accepted.

Personally I think America shouldn't exist at all. We had no right to rebel against them, just like the south shouldn't have done it in the Civil War. Hey! Im an English, Swedish Protestant. Watch out do not mess with me. (French, Catholics, Scottish, Russian, Polish, Austrian, Communists, etc.) :sniper:
Yes...down with autonomy... :rolleyes:

true

Think I forgot my sarcasm tags...

Jesus, it's no wonder the rest of the world can't stand us, when all we Americans can seem to do is whine, ad nauseum.

Get over it! :rolleyes:

Nazi Germany and Hitler could have had the world, If they had delayed the war five more years as expected, but then Hitler started to go insane.

Here is the plan:

1. Europe (including Russia, but avoiding England. Japan to take Asia, Including some Russion teritory)

2. Africa: Italy to do the most of the work here.

3. Isolating the USA, using South American allies.

4 Isolating the US as they wished to be isolated at the time.

Biggest problem the Axis had, and the largest mistakes they made were attacking 3 of the worlds three largest Nation. (and India was british at the time, so four for four.)

Morons.

Here's a good review of a good alternate history in which the US doesn't esist - The Two Georges (http://electronictiger.com/reviews/georges.htm).

Oh, and to whoever said "No USA = No Al Qaeda" or whatever it was (that was the gist). Sure, there might not be an organization called Al Qaeda but there sure as hell would still be terrorism. Believe it or not, the USA isn't the cause of all terrorism on earth, as much as some of you might like to believe. And this goes to whoever might believe the lie that an end to Al Qaeda means an end to terrorism, because it doesn't... :eek:

I didn't say it would end terrorism. Terrorism has been around since time itself.

But you should know that most acts of terrorism are regional and fixed to a local cause and only flare up when the government in the area decides does something to piss of the group. Basque seperatists have no reason to bomb the USA. Same with the IRA and so on. Even Hamas can fit in this category.

Al Quada on the other hand is GLOBAL. They bomb anyone and have killed so many people I think they have killed more people than any other modern terrorist group. Thousands have died and I don't see them being stopped any time soon. Then there is the fact that Al Quada have become a movement and not just a mere terrorist organization.

I could go on but I'm sicka nd I think everyone gets the idea now.

Well the light bulb was invented by Joseph Swan an Englishman, check out the real history not the US propoganda.
The Telephone was an Italian as far as I am aware, but living in the US, again check out what has recently been recognised by the US Gov.
As much as it pains me to say the TV was a Scot, again living in the US but a Scot.
The internet as it is today the WWW was an English man!
Next!

Everyone was cracking away at the light bulb but I think the major event was its invention by Henry Woodward who sold his patent to Thomas Edison. Woodward was Canadian.

The telephone was first invented by a poor italian immigrant in america who couldn't get investors for his invention and eventually lost out to Alexander Graham Bell (the American Dream can be an illusive mistress...). Bell was a Scot and moved to Canada with his family when he was young. He would have become a citizen if Canadian citizenship existed back then. He became an american later on so the British government could not force him to let them use his many inventions for war purposes during WWI (obviously a pascifist).

As for the last two I have no idea of their origin but I'll take you're word for it (i think the WWW one is true but I don't know details).

Well, not being funny, but the rest of the world might not have airplanes, telephones, recorded music or computers or the internet yet if it weren't for the US. Marketing, dear. Marketing.

Besides, even without the US as a country, the same people would be out there, they'd just be someplace else. Everyone has people like that in their country, they just like to pick on the US, because we aren't shy about letting our idiots provide us with hours of entertainment in the form of Ricky Lake and Jackass the Movie.

I have to ask though. On the greater scope of the War on Terror, do you people actually believe that an invasion of Iraq never would have happened? (And hate to point this out, but if we weren't a part of the UN, then it wouldn't exist, believe me...remember a little thing called the League of Nations? Yeah...that worked...)

Come on man. The League failed because they decided to appease an old friend instead of putting the knuckles to him from the start.

The UN is correcting that mistake by impedeing the US's ambitions by not approving of its war in Iraq. If the US continues on this track you can expet stiffer actions by the UN.

If america had never gained independence, then all the resources of North America would have been available to the British Empire during the Great War. As a result the Germans may not have even bothered. The shape of Europe would have been very different and the situations in Japan and Germany may not have arisen. So, the first world war was a direct result of America. Hence, all the worlds evils are your fault.

Without america Britain may have not won the war but do you think people would let it lie..

Saying that we would be speaking german in Scotland and id be mumbling something like ..

Scheizen Licker

So thank you Yanks for coming to us in the end (after a long delay) in the war to even the numbers of good against bad basically :)

If America didn't exist, then it would be largely British, and then Britain would have either won the war, or its might would have prevented the war from happening.

Meh, Germany would have lost anyway or at least have been fought to a stalemate. The Soviets were holding their own long, long before D-Day and were pretty much handing Germany its ass on a platter (though at a considerable rate of attrition for themselves).

The rest of it is poorly thought out alternative history. Germany probably would have found its newly created massive empire untenable, with conquered peoples seriously outnumbering the native German conquerers. Something similar would eventually happen to the Japanese, I strongly suspect, as the Kuomintang and the CPC (more the latter) were still putting up a serious fight on the Chinese mainland.

This whole setup is more like a strawman, really. No one here HATES the United States as a geopolitical concept, or really hates its people and wants to see it wiped off the face of the earth. Plenty of us, myself included, would like to see it run by different people under a very different economic paradigm.
Actually the Soviets held their own with American war materials.
As for people in other countries wanting to see the US run by different people, well,really that is our decision, not to sound harsh.

Well, not being funny, but the rest of the world might not have airplanes, telephones, recorded music or computers or the internet yet if it weren't for the US. Marketing, dear. Marketing.

Besides, even without the US as a country, the same people would be out there, they'd just be someplace else. Everyone has people like that in their country, they just like to pick on the US, because we aren't shy about letting our idiots provide us with hours of entertainment in the form of Ricky Lake and Jackass the Movie.

Marketing does not exist because America exists. Marketing has been around since money.

More than one country was working on airplanes. In fact a Canadian (and friend of Alexander Graham Bell) would have launched one before the Wright Bros. if it weren't for a runway accident. (it was repaired and it flew later on but the guy comitted suicide before he saw it fly, pity :( )

Believe me the telephone, music, computers and internet would be around today if America wasn't around. Japan alone uses these as much if not more than America does. These things are used like crazy all over the world.

Yup. The people in America would still be there inventing and buying crap so its not really a virtue of America that people invent and sell and buy things. Scotland has a history of being the biggest innovators back then and have a great deal of inventing going on to this very day.

About that 'Ricky Lake' and "Jackass' thing...entertainment in other countries can be no better. Everyone likes stupidity. It's funny and entertaining. Have you ever seen a Japanese game show :p

It's too bad that Russia will not get any help from America in the form of Weapons, and War Vehicles. Without the support they're unable to delay the Germans for as long, and before you know it the Germans made it to Moscow.


It's too bad you didn't bother to get a clue before you spoke up...

The Russians actually made most of their weapons and tanks and stuff for themselves, and while it did take a while for them to crank up their production, "before you know it", the German Wehrmacht was stuck in the mud, being chewed on by the Russian winter and having their overextended supply lines messed with by those nasty little Russians...

This is precisely what pisses a lot of people off about the US: you seem to think the whole world revolves around you and that the rest of us couldn't possibly amount to anything without you. Well, fuck that! (-And pardon my French!) The US IS a superpower and it HAS done a lot of good for the world, but that does NOT give you the right to assume that everyone else has the IQ of a carrot! (*grumble*)



It takes awhile for them to Pacify Russia, and those crazy Communists. But after a Few Ethnic Cleansings in a city or two, the Russians sort of get the idea.


Once again, you show that you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.

Guess what? The Nazis did their ethnic cleansing stuff in pretty much EVERY CITY they could lay their hands on!!!

They killed MILLIONS!

-AND STILL EUROPE DID NOT SUBMIT!

I suggest you get your facts straight before you go off talking about anyone "sort of getting the idea" next time.

If Hitler dies, let's assume General Reinhart T.E. Heydrich takes control.

Keep in mind that FDR was sending stuff over to Churchill's guys for years.

Supreme Commander Eisenhower isn't around, so no D-Day. Let Monty handle things.

British Security Coordination loses its New York headquarters.

Come on man. The League failed because they decided to appease an old friend instead of putting the knuckles to him from the start.

Partially correct. They didn't do what they were supposed to because they couldn't. They didn't have the resources nor power required to make any sorts of "requests" Without a power like the USA as part of it, the UN would be likened to the same fate. Also, the League outright banned war, good luck with that... The UN simply says "Hey now...please don't do that..."

The UN is correcting that mistake by impedeing the US's ambitions by not approving of its war in Iraq. If the US continues on this track you can expet stiffer actions by the UN.
Um...not quite, for the same reason said before. Without the US, they have no real power/will to enforce any of their sanctions. Saying please and thank you to dictatorships doesn't really work and I can't see the UN sanctioning the USA when a quarter of the costs of peacekeeping is funded by the USA.

Actually the Soviets held their own with American war materials.


All i can say is that most of the folk in this conversation have never studied history before.

Anyway, Takrai, i suppose you've never heard of Stalingrad (or Lenningrad, if you prefer). As i recall, the Russians got the crap bombed out of them, nearly starved to death, but still won the battle, and as a result put the Germans on the back foot in it's Russian campaign. All this with NO help from the yanks (not that they really could help anyway due to the geography of Russia and their inherent dislike of communism). Also, Russia made most of it's own weapons. Never heard of a Kalashnikov before?

All i can say is that most of the folk in this conversation have never studied history before.

Anyway, Takrai, i suppose you've never heard of Stalingrad (or Lenningrad, if you prefer). As i recall, the Russians got the crap bombed out of them, nearly starved to death, but still won the battle, and as a result put the Germans on the back foot in it's Russian campaign. All this with NO help from the yanks (not that they really could help anyway due to the geography of Russia and their inherent dislike of communism). Also, Russia made most of it's own weapons. Never heard of a Kalashnikov before?

The Russians did hold. Out of sheer *pardone* american balls. they had little if any help form th US, but they held. From what I have learned, women and children did their part.

So America and all its subsequent actions are great, because their actions 60 years ago stopped Germany winning the Second World War?
Surely by the same logic, we should also support the actions of the USSR, given that they fought even harder against the Nazi menace?

In any case, you can't argue that the motivation of the USA in joining the war was anything to do with the protection of gays, blacks and Jews. The views of many Americans correlated (and correlate) with the views of the Nazis.

So America and all its subsequent actions are great, because their actions 60 years ago stopped Germany winning the Second World War?
Surely by the same logic, we should also support the actions of the USSR, given that they fought even harder against the Nazi menace?

In any case, you can't argue that the motivation of the USA in joining the war was anything to do with the protection of gays, blacks and Jews. The views of many Americans correlated (and correlate) with the views of the Nazis.


No kidding? *innocent grin* You don't think. Imperial wars sometimes make poeple think about the past, but they never really remember

Sig:

JIM.

All i can say is that most of the folk in this conversation have never studied history before.

Anyway, Takrai, i suppose you've never heard of Stalingrad (or Lenningrad, if you prefer). As i recall, the Russians got the crap bombed out of them, nearly starved to death, but still won the battle, and as a result put the Germans on the back foot in it's Russian campaign. All this with NO help from the yanks (not that they really could help anyway due to the geography of Russia and their inherent dislike of communism). Also, Russia made most of it's own weapons. Never heard of a Kalashnikov before?
Actually, I lost a grandfather on a beach in France. As for myself, I have studied more history than you, I virtually can guarantee. As a current officer in the US Army, I have even seen my share of history. US and UK supplies were brought through to a frozen Murmansk Peninsula risking U Boat attack, to be delivered to the Soviet far North. This lifeline is even admitted in the Soviet history.

So America and all its subsequent actions are great, because their actions 60 years ago stopped Germany winning the Second World War?
Surely by the same logic, we should also support the actions of the USSR, given that they fought even harder against the Nazi menace?

In any case, you can't argue that the motivation of the USA in joining the war was anything to do with the protection of gays, blacks and Jews. The views of many Americans correlated (and correlate) with the views of the Nazis.
That is just plain ridiculous.. Our country is probably the best friend in the world of the Jewish State(Israel) as we are reminded time and again by Islamic extremists.Our Security Council veto is the main reason that Israel never really has been in violation of a UN resolution. Americans provided the most materiel in WW2 to the allied cause, something, admittedly probably more out of friendship to the UK than out of dislike for the Germans, but then again, Hitler's anti-Jew policy never got the other Europeans into the war, either, rather his attacking them did, so it is laughable that you would by inference imply that because we joined the war out of non-humanitarian reasons, the rest of Europe was somehow better...they joined when they were attacked, we joined when we were. And long before we joined, US flyers and naval forces were in a state of defacto war, taking supplies to the UK and Russia,being attacked by U Boats, and in the case of the flyers, volunteering to join a fight that really was NOT our fight at that time.

if the americans hadn't been selling arms to the nazis then the allies would have had an easier time fighting the germans, you know.

if the americans hadn't been selling arms to the nazis then the allies would have had an easier time fighting the germans, you know.
Ridiculous also..the USA did not have an arms industry until WE were in the war, and the materiel we lent(to UK at first, then to USSR as well) was from our own stocks..ie. destroyers on active fleet duty being tranferred, etc. Once the US was attacked, we switched over production of auto-industry,shipping industry, etc for arms, and in some ways never stopped. This production was needed for OUR war effort, the first time it was able to be sold, was after WW2.

"you would by inference imply that because we joined the war out of non-humanitarian reasons, the rest of Europe was somehow better"
No I wouldn't, and no I didn't. I merely refuted the claim that the actions of the US could be in any sense vindicated because of an unrelated action 60 years previously.