NationStates Jolt Archive

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?
Why are you asking Jews to defend the words of a handful of Rabbis?
Would you ask Muslims to defend the misdeeds of the lunatic fringe Al-Quaeda?
Christians to defend the IRA//UVF?
No offence, Im just ...confused.

Just goes to show you--there's assholes in every religion.

Why are you asking Jews to defend the words of a handful of Rabbis?
Would you ask Muslims to defend the misdeeds of the lunatic fringe Al-Quaeda?
Christians to defend the IRA//UVF?
No offence, Im just ...confused.
Agreed

Do White people = KKK members?
Germans = Nazis?
Russians = Commies?
Teens with funky hairstlyes = anarchists?
Christian psychos = Republicans? (don't answer)

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?

Linking to an al jazeera website about jews would be like asking a chrisian about my views. And I agree, there are assholes in every religion, but we should not judge anothers beliefs based on the "Moronic fringe" of a given belief.

Is this so different from what goes on in any war? Civilians, women and children, are dying in the Iraqi war. Is George Bush proposing we ever "turn the other cheek"?

This is exactly why war is a last last last last last resort, people!

So basically, you're blaming all Jews for something some rabbis, who don't even represent the majority of the Jews in Israel, are saying, when what they're saying is what goes on in EVERY war.

So, basically, you brought this up because you hate Jews?

Someone took the evolutionary short-bus...

hmmm.... so really what you are trying to cover up, is the fact that you are anti-semetic. good job. way to be. :headbang:

I think everyone already pointed out the obvious and I agree, but I just can't get over the fact that you quote Aljazeera quoting Jews or Rabbi's. I mean that has to be the most biased thing I have ever seen in my life...well, other than asking Gerbels or Goering anything about the jews and taking their word on it.

Lamo-award.... :headbang:

Jebustan? No pithy remarks? No witty comebacks? No self-righteous tirade on the wickedness of the Jews and their plans for world domination? How fortunate for us.

I think everyone already pointed out the obvious and I agree, but I just can't get over the fact that you quote Aljazeera quoting Jews or Rabbi's. I mean that has to be the most biased thing I have ever seen in my life...well, other than asking Gerbels or Goering anything about the jews and taking their word on it.

Lamo-award.... :headbang: Yes it is rather stupid isn't it?

Jebustan? No pithy remarks? No witty comebacks? No self-righteous tirade on the wickedness of the Jews and their plans for world domination? How fortunate for us.

I don't have a problem with Jews. I have a problem with extremism, whether it be Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.

"The wickedness of the Jews"? I'm a little better than that kind of thinking.

Maybe I should have rephrased myself when I started this thread. What I meant was for Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews to defend those statements.

And just because the story came from Al Jazeera doesn't mean that it never happened.

I don't have a problem with Jews. I have a problem with extremism, whether it be Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.

"The wickedness of the Jews"? I'm a little better than that kind of thinking.Hey--you're the one who posted the article and then demanded that all Jews defend it. If that's your m.o., then you're not much better than that. Nothing personal dude, but that's crappy all the way around.

Hey--you're the one who posted the article and then demanded that all Jews defend it. If that's your m.o., then you're not much better than that. Nothing personal dude, but that's crappy all the way around.
Im trying hard to give Jebustan the benefit of the doubt- but what Incertonia says pretty much sums up how I (and I suspect most peeps on the forum) feel.
I still dont understand why you would ask all Jews to defend the words of a handful of their extremist coreligionists.

What I wanted to know was, specifically, what Biblical verse(s) could give people the idea that one group of people is superior to another.
As a Christian, I can kind of understand the thinking of people who kill abortion doctors, but I also know that it's wrong. I wanted to know if there was any verse(s) that supprted the ultra-Orthodox beliefs stated in the article I posted.
So please, if anyone can help me out here, I'd be very grateful. Sorry if I came off as anti-Jewish.

first, this seems to be only a couple rabbi's feelings abd beliefs, and i can tell you right now, that these are not prominent rabbis. i would say maybe 2% of jews at most actually agree with what they are saying here.

"The rabbis quoted a Talmudic edict, or religious ruling, stating that "our lives come first"."

this article makes that out to have the readers believe that jews think that "jewish lives come first" instead of what the torah really says, which is, "lives come first." health in general is what it actually says, so for example, on yom kippur, when jews fast, the elderly or weak, or even someone who knows they will become slightly ill because of the fasting is told they do not have to fast.

and this rabbi, Dov Lior, is an idiot. like i said before, 2% at most actually take this guy seriously. what he says according to the anti-semetic news source of al-jazeera is totally against what anything in the torah says and against nearly every single jew's beliefs.

I dont get it.

What is this group of rabbis doing/preaching that is wrong?

In a letter to the Israeli defence minister, Shaul Mofaz, published on Tuesday, the rabbis said killing enemy civilians is "normal" during the time of war and that the Israeli occupation army should never hesitate to kill non-Jewish civilians in order to save Jewish lives.

Al-Jazzera worded it badly (on accident, of course) but the argument is perfectly logical. Civlian militias have guns and shoot people, and they hide in civlian buildings among civilians.

I would condemn the people advocating this for reasons of illusions of religious superiority, but as Al-Jazzera pointed out, some of the concerned party was only concerned about the tactics involved.


Civilians die during wartime, especially when the enemy chooses to sheild themselves with civilian lives. Get over it.

and to repeat, there is nothing in the torah at any point in which it states that taking another human's life is anything but negative. thou shall not kill. period.

Once again, Al Jazeera illustrates for us why they are quickly becoming the number 2 Arabic Language News Network (behind Al-Arabiya): They lie.

Does the writer of this thread know what an Orthodox or an Ultra-Orthodox Jew is? It has little to do with political dispositions or feelings on the state of war and peace in Israel and much more to do with their cultural practices and religious behaviors from day to day.

When it comes to Israel and the different denominations, it's like this...

Some Orthodox Jews don't at all support Israeli statehood, let alone killing in that name. Regardless of their stance, it's rare to see Israeli soldiers who are anything more than Modern Orthodox (sort of a mix between Conservative and Orthodox...more metropolitan in nature), because the ultra-orthodoxy almost always are exempted, instead choosing to be clergy or take on other forms of rabbinical study or National Service.

Some of the Ultra-orthodoxy instead feel that the reorganization of the nation of their ancestors is supposed to be part of a divine chapter in history, which we have not yet reached...and so they exclude themselves from politics and voting, etc.

This is not to say that some orthodoxy aren't Zionists. Many many (most?) are. But that doesn't make them nuts like this article suggests.

This is not only a case of throwing a whole group of people (Jews) into an unfair political context, but breaking down a segment of that group (Orthodox Jews) and calling them all crazies just because one of them happens to make an unpopular statement (that may or may not be true).

I dont get it.

What is this group of rabbis doing/preaching that is wrong?



Al-Jazzera worded it badly (on accident, of course) but the argument is perfectly logical. Civlian militias have guns and shoot people, and they hide in civlian buildings among civilians.

I would condemn the people advocating this for reasons of illusions of religious superiority, but as Al-Jazzera pointed out, some of the concerned party was only concerned about the tactics involved.


Civilians die during wartime, especially when the enemy chooses to sheild themselves with civilian lives. Get over it.


thats the only part that everyone has to sort of agree on, because its not an opinion, its a fact. civilian casualties are part of war. the rest of the talk is just garbage tho, because after that first point, only idiocy spews from this 'rabbi's' mouth.

Hahaha Al-jazeera.

It is undoubtedly the most biased news group in the world. Just have a look on their website, nothing but things that shows the western world in bad context.

Brainwashed muslims = suicide bombers

I dont get it.

What is this group of rabbis doing/preaching that is wrong?

I think it has to with when the article says "Calling Goldstein a "great saint", he (Dov Lior) said a "thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail".


first, this seems to be only a couple rabbi's feelings abd beliefs, and i can tell you right now, that these are not prominent rabbis. i would say maybe 2% of jews at most actually agree with what they are saying here.

"The rabbis quoted a Talmudic edict, or religious ruling, stating that "our lives come first"."

this article makes that out to have the readers believe that jews think that "jewish lives come first" instead of what the torah really says, which is, "lives come first." health in general is what it actually says, so for example, on yom kippur, when jews fast, the elderly or weak, or even someone who knows they will become slightly ill because of the fasting is told they do not have to fast.

and this rabbi, Dov Lior, is an idiot. like i said before, 2% at most actually take this guy seriously. what he says according to the anti-semetic news source of al-jazeera is totally against what anything in the torah says and against nearly every single jew's beliefs.


THAT'S the kind of answer I was looking for!! Thank you, Jexyland!
But Dov Lior must be getting his theories from somewhere. Saying "he's an idiot" doesn't really help. I can tell he's an idiot.

Hahaha Al-jazeera.

It is undoubtedly the most biased news group in the world. Just have a look on their website, nothing but things that shows the western world in bad context.

Brainwashed muslims = suicide bombers

Gee, i wonder why. Do onto others as you wish them to do onto you maybe? Stereotyping orthodox Islam like that is shortsighted.

Besides, Al-Jazzera isnt nearly as biased as a few other groups i know, the BBC World Service comes to mind. SABC is still the worst news service ive seen to date though. They fuging treat the cubans like gods.

I think it has to with when the article says "Calling Goldstein a "great saint", he (Dov Lior) said a "thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail".





THAT'S the kind of answer I was looking for!! Thank you, Jexyland!
But Dov Lior must be getting his theories from somewhere. Saying "he's an idiot" doesn't really help. I can tell he's an idiot.


he is not getting his theories from anywhere. i know the torah. it doesn't mention anything in the torah as to what he says he is getting his info from. most likely this guy pulls his theories out of his ass. maybe he is disgruntled because a suicide bomber killed his wife or daughter or something but still, there is still no platform that this man can stand from that is just.

Hahaha Al-jazeera.

It is undoubtedly the most biased news group in the world. Just have a look on their website, nothing but things that shows the western world in bad context.

Brainwashed muslims = suicide bombers

You're forgetting Fox "News".

Gee, i wonder why. Do onto others as you wish them to do onto you maybe? Stereotyping orthodox Islam like that is shortsighted.

Besides, Al-Jazzera isnt nearly as biased as a few other groups i know, the BBC World Service comes to mind. SABC is still the worst news service ive seen to date though. They fuging treat the cubans like gods.

well, actually, you just assumed he said orthodox muslims. he really just said brainwashed muslims. you don't have to be orthodox for that. and you would also have to agree that all the suicide bombers out there are brainwashed, because no one in their right mind would do that.

and hey, it must be the cigars :rolleyes:

Fox glorifies American soldiers, government, and pretty much every american descision made. It would qualify as news, not very good news, but news nonetheless. For reporting actual news i would prize them above CNN. Their bias is a big, big problem, but i wouldnt put news in quotes. Remember that they have been subject to a massive smear campaign by left wing groups unaffiliated with the current Kerry campaign. I dont doubt that there is some truth to what has been said about them but im going to need to keep a closer eye on them first to be sure.

I read Al-Jazzera every so often as well and they seem mostly fine to me. They certainly seem to wish to demonize Jews and the west to some degree, as said, but again, i wouldnt totally discount them. This article shows authoring intended to hide facts and create sentiment but not to the degree that it involves outright lies.

The one major international news service that i strongly dislike happens to be the BBC, truly one of the foulest, most biased and propagandistic world-reknowned news services around. I dont think this is unrelated to the fact that it recieves government funds rather than operates on its own. Ive heard the British company Sky News won an award for the most balanced news recently. Is this correct? Im not able to get Sky News anymore, havent since about 1994 in South Africa.

Linking to an al jazeera website about jews would be like asking a chrisian about my views. And I agree, there are assholes in every religion, but we should not judge anothers beliefs based on the "Moronic fringe" of a given belief.


Precisely.

Just becuase one jerk said something stupid, that shouldnt represent the whole bunch.

Al-Jazeera are the LAST people who would say anything positive about a Jew.


Except for maybe Neo Nazis.

Like the guy who started this thread.
So....why would you believe anything they say?

well, actually, you just assumed he said orthodox muslims. he really just said brainwashed muslims

Oops... :D

Can i get away with saying i had some trouble identifying the diffrence? :)

Not that i have anything against muslims in particular. Just the more stern religious types in general.

It is an outright lie to say only Orthodox Jews have power in Israel. The article claims this pretense in order to stress that Israel is an extremist nation worth demonizing. It's not only bed reporting, it's a lie.

Ariel Sharon doesn't even wear a head-covering. If the head of state isn't "one of them" then I think that's pretty indicative of what the country of Israel is like. It's a mainstream, cosmopolitian, modern country with a Representative government and a deeply religious cultural background.

Secular Jews, though, are everywhere in Israel (native Israelis are generally less religious, because they need to work on the Sabbath...Israeli paychecks are smaller) It's very easy to be a Jew in Israel in so many cultural ways (duh) so many Jews have become relaxed about some of the aspects of their religion as far as appearance is concerned.

EX. There's a joke where the Pope visits Jerusalem and he's the only one wearing a yarmulke.

(Well, *I* thought it was funny!)

Just to clarify something here...
The books of the old testament definitely don't condone killing innoccent civilians.

There is however an awful lot about the Jews being the chosen people... and in the Passover story there is definitely talk of mass slaughtering of people who go against the Jewish God and attempt ill will against the Jews.

Just to clarify something here...
The books of the old testament definitely don't condone killing innoccent civilians.

There is however an awful lot about the Jews being the chosen people... and in the Passover story there is definitely talk of mass slaughtering of people who go against the Jewish God and attempt ill will against the Jews.

Yes, but as UN Jurisdiction pointed out with great grace and levelheadedness, this is for the most part irrevelant to Isreal.

Yes, but as UN Jurisdiction pointed out with great grace and levelheadedness, this is for the most part irrevelant to Isreal.

True, but that's not at all the point. I believe the question of this thread was (through a thin veil of anti-semitism) to find out what in the bible could these rabbis be talking about when they mentioned talmudic references.

The Passover story and the prayers associated with it are a likely source.

Alright jebustan, first things first. One; your a complete moron to blame an entire race of people for what some idiots said about the war in Isreal. Although you may not be anti-semite, that still doesn't mean you have to blame a minority.

Second, If you start spouting something like asking for a scripture verse from the Bible on how these rabbis could say this I should track you down and beat you! How dare you go so far as to put rascial and undermining terms to the word of God. Also I might add that in the end of Revelations it says this " And he whosoever addeth onto this book, added to him shall be all the plagues of Egypt for all eternity."

And like everyone has said, there are assholes in every religion. I myself try to stay as liberal minded as possible to all things that happen in world events.

As for suicide bombers. Well when you push someone to the point where they are desprate enough to kill themselves and those around them by strapping explosives to there bodies it means that you should probably stop doing what you have been doing in the past. Same could be said for Chechnya and Russia. Even though it is a horrible thing to blow up women and children like the Chechnyians did a few days ago, you should firsat understand why they did it. The conflict in CHechnya has been around since the 1700's I should know since I'm a history professor. Second, in 1947 when Stalin took over the Caucus he had 200,000 CHechnyain women and children murdered. ANd thousands more have died over the last century. And now a war of Genocide is about to aniliate all the Chechnyians under the tracks of Russain tanks.

So my friend i ending of this, You should read up and look further into a story before you go pointing fingers and shouting accusations.

My country will more than gladly accept any social-outcasts as cheap-labor....with free room and board.

Gee, i wonder why. Do onto others as you wish them to do onto you maybe? Stereotyping orthodox Islam like that is shortsighted.

Uhh, i never said anything explicitly about orthodox islam. And what do you think these suicide bombers are? The are brainwashed muslims, its a fact.



As for FOX NEWS, never really watched it, as im in Australia i dont really care about whats going on with the Kobe Bryant case blah blah blah etc. Is that all they talk about on there? Cause thats always on when i flick through the channels :rolleyes:

As for suicide bombers. Well when you push someone to the point where they are desprate enough to kill themselves and those around them by strapping explosives to there bodies it means that you should probably stop doing what you have been doing in the past.



No, there is no excuse for suicide bombers targeting inocents! No religion tells you it is ok to slaughter children (at least none that I know).
Acts like that only breed more violence, if my children had died in that school I would have happily supported what ever action the Russians took against a percieved enemy, as I would not have been thinking rationaly. And that would have produced a cycle of more violence.
You either sit down and negotiate or you do as the old testiment says and kill every living representative of that group or race. Something I don't think anyone would find acceptable.(mind that contradict slightly my earlier statement but never mind we''l gloss over it)
Until acts like this stop there can be no talking to murders and those they represent.

.
I really didn't want to read that again, so I didn't bother quoting it.

Amazing how many people will go on about how the Muslims are justified in resorting to terror because of claims of how they've been treated by the West, but don't consider that this sort of venom is only going to feed the Jewish extremists.

As for 'sucking the lifeblood' out of nations, I suggest you have a look at the handful of nations which *have* been run by Jews: say Britain under Disreali - and see how well they've done.
And then look at the Jewish contributions to music and the arts...
But that would mean accepting evidence over propoganda, wouldn't it?

Jews aren't a moral people. They've sucked the blood out of every culture and society they've ever been a part of. They predominate in the Bush administration, calling themselves neocons, and were responsible for a war in Iraq that had more to do with protecting Israel than it did protecting America.

And if Bush wins the election, our next target will probably be Iran. But is Iran a threat to us? No, but it's a threat to Israel. David Frum, the Jew who coined the "Axis of Evil" phrase, says it is. So do many other neocons - most of them Jewish. So more American lives will be spent to protect the land of the Jew. Tragic.

I don't care what a neo-Nazi asshole like you has to say about Jews. In fact, NO ONE cares what you have say! Go drink some bleach or something, doucheface!

Al-Jazeera are the LAST people who would say anything positive about a Jew.


Except for maybe Neo Nazis.

Like the guy who started this thread.
So....why would you believe anything they say?

I said I wasn't anti-Jewish, you stupid asshole! Read my posts before you judge me. Dumbass.

As for FOX NEWS, never really watched it, as im in Australia i dont really care about whats going on with the Kobe Bryant case blah blah blah etc. Is that all they talk about on there? Cause thats always on when i flick through the channels :rolleyes:

No, they also talk about how much president Bush rules, and how anyone who doesn't support him is a traitor/terrorist. I swear, Bill O'reilly would probably suck Bush's cock if he came on his show.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?


I'll defend it with this:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

That is all.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?

I know what you mean, and it is true. BUT: the Israeli state does not speak for all Jews in the world. Lot's of Jews in the world don't agree with the Sharon regime and what they do to opress others.

Never fall in the trap of Sharon's propaganda, he thinks that he is speaking for all Jews in the world but like we have seen in the past, most Jews abroad that have acces to free media condem state terrorisme (and the opposite to of course) that is why their communities still support the neutral countries they live in, altough all the propaganda money of Likoed to try to get those free people to Israel (you know the story of the propaganda hate of Israel against the EU and even against the Jews that live here and prefere freedom above Israel and the mess it created).

Better post some amnesty links that speak about the Israeli terror instead of speeking about the Jews in genereal, since the majority of Jews don't live in Israel and appart of the sponsors of the US republican right showed us true their leaders and free press that they have a different opinion then Sharons dictates. You had to see what the French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Argentine, Russian aso Rabis and the press of those communities said last months/years to know what most "Jews" think, wich is different of what Orthodox Israelites and Likoed think.

I'll defend it with this:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

That is all.

Sorry that I posted Keruvlia, had not seen your link before posting but it says what I tried to say with my post. :fluffle:

I'll defend it with this:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

That is all.

:D

Sorry that I posted Keruvlia, had not seen your link before posting but it says what I tried to say with my post. :fluffle:

Hehe ... well our posts came through at right about the same time, I think. No harm done. :D

I am a Jew by blood. By spiritual practices, I am very Pagan, but believing in God or Torah is not a prerequisite of being Jewish.

Anyway, that said, I am completely and undeniably against the State of Israel. To quote Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L, Dean of Nitra Yeshiva, "One should not entreat the Creator to provide a banquet on Yom Kippur, and one can not perform a ritual ablution with a dead bug in his hand."

It's pretty much how I feel about it.

I know what you mean, and it is true. BUT: the Israeli state does not speak for all Jews in the world. Lot's of Jews in the world don't agree with the Sharon regime and what they do to opress others.

Never fall in the trap of Sharon's propaganda, he thinks that he is speaking for all Jews in the world but like we have seen in the past, most Jews abroad that have acces to free media condem state terrorisme (and the opposite to of course) that is why their communities still support the neutral countries they live in, altough all the propaganda money of Likoed to try to get those free people to Israel (you know the story of the propaganda hate of Israel against the EU and even against the Jews that live here and prefere freedom above Israel and the mess it created).

Better post some amnesty links that speak about the Israeli terror instead of speeking about the Jews in genereal, since the majority of Jews don't live in Israel and appart of the sponsors of the US republican right showed us true their leaders and free press that they have a different opinion then Sharons dictates. You had to see what the French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Argentine, Russian aso Rabis and the press of those communities said last months/years to know what most "Jews" think, wich is different of what Orthodox Israelites and Likoed think.

You can't blame people for believing Sharon's propaganda. I've talked to Jews, and even non-Jews, who call me anti-semitic for bashing Israeli policies. In fact, I've never met a Jew, in person at least, who doesn't support Zionism.

The hostilities between Israel and Palestine are rather brutal, but war is war. Even a conflict like this (which is more of an urban war). The Palestinian suicide bombers don't spare Israeli civilians.....

You can't blame people for believing Sharon's propaganda. I've talked to Jews, and even non-Jews, who call me anti-semitic for bashing Israeli policies. In fact, I've never met a Jew, in person at least, who doesn't support Zionism.

Come hang out with me sometime ... I'll introduce you to hundreds. :) Including several dozen Orthodox Rabbis. Also, try the Hassidics ... not a zionist in the bunch. The Talmud says that if Israel is retaken by anything other than God's will, then ceaseless war will be the price. The current State of Israel was taken by military might ... and look at the result. Gosh those Talmud writers were smart!

The majority of Jews know that anti-zionism does not equal anti-semitism. Nutcases abound, though, and Jews (myself included) will usually apologize for letting them happen. Whenever I personally meet a strongly zionist Jew, I slap them ... hard.

The hostilities between Israel and Palestine are rather brutal, but war is war. Even a conflict like this (which is more of an urban war). The Palestinian suicide bombers don't spare Israeli civilians.....

We're not talking about suicide bombers at the moment. So zip it!

You can't blame people for believing Sharon's propaganda. I've talked to Jews, and even non-Jews, who call me anti-semitic for bashing Israeli policies. In fact, I've never met a Jew, in person at least, who doesn't support Zionism.

Well, I think you will find a good debater in Keruvlia :) And of course I don't agree that they call you anti semite just because you don't agree with the regime. :)

Anyway, that said, I am completely and undeniably against the State of Israel. It's pretty much how I feel about it.

Keruvlia, you must be the first Jewish person that is against the state of Israel. I agree with you about the Palestine / Israel thing but we can not turn back the clock. Isreal is there and will stay. We, in the old EU countries did a lot of wrong against the people from this believe over the ages, and specially last century (but don't forget the middle ages aso) but since we gave the Arrab teritories to the people who call themselves Israelite so long ago, we can not scrap this nation, th enation is a fact.

I think that Israel could find a sollution with a Swiss or Belgian system in wich nations every part of the people (different languages, not the religion wich makes it easier) have their rights and territory. Of course, Israel will have to pay back for what it did to the victims before getting this started.

Several things...

First, Al-Jazeera is, as several other people mentioned, a biased source. You would be much better off double-checking stories like these in the Israeli press to get a better sense of balance:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/474730.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/474999.html

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1094528404422&p=1006688055060

The Jerusalem Post, for instance, a centrist-right paper, described the incident this way:

A group of prominent right wing rabbis on Tuesday issued a potentially inflammatory public call on the government to fight terrorism more tenaciously and to heed no difference between civilian and combatant in battle.

The call by West Bank, Gaza, and right wing rabbis from Israel proper, arrived just a few hours after an IDF strike in Gaza killed 15 people – all of them Hamas members, according to a Hamas spokesman.

The group of rabbis, headed by former MK and Chairman of the popular Bnei Akiva youth movement Haim Drukman (National Religious Party), said the army's policy in Palestinian areas should take into consideration that no army, when fighting amongst civilians, can protect the lives of its soldiers unless it is willing to take the risk of injuring, or even killing, civilians amongst whom terrorists hide

"In a time of war as in today, we cannot differentiate between [civilian] population to an Army," the letter read. Copies of the letter arrived at the offices of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and OC General Staff Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon. "We cannot continue to use what is known as 'Christian morality, which prefers the life of our enemies over our own," the letter continued.

Israel's Sephardic Chief Rabbi, Shlomo Amar backs the right-wing rabbis, Channel 1 TV reported. "We are forced to fight them for as long as they refuse to accept the path of peace," Amar said. "We fight, but our hand must always be ready to offer peace. It is not just a mitzvah, but a duty, to save one's life," Amar said.

Part of the letter hinges on the teachings of Rabbi Akiva a 2nd century AD scholar, who preached that while one should respect above all one's neighbor, there are choices to be made, specifically "our lives first."

Other rabbis who signed the letter include the Chairman of the Judea, Samaria and Gaza Rabbi's council, Dov Lior, and rabbi's Amnon Shugerman and Yuval Sherlo who both head hesder yeshivas which combine Torah learning and shortened army service.

The letter follows a slew of similar epistle by various Rabbinical councils who support the Greater Israel ideology, calling for the employment of harsher tactics against the Palestinians and for IDF soldiers to refuse their orders should they be summoned to dismantle an outpost or settlement.

Yesha Rabbis' Council secretary Yishai Ba'abad said the rabbis' letter to the heads of state is based on a previous psak halacha (Jewish decree) that the lives of Israeli soldiers comes first and should be protected, even on the expense of "so-called civilians".

...Response to the inflammatory letter

While little response came from right-wing Knesset Members, the left assailed the letter. Veteran MK Yossi Sarid (Yahad) said that "there is no difference between these rabbis and the Ayatollahs," YNET reported. Sarid expressed disappointment that the rabbis were using their influence to be the guardians of life rather than supporters of death.

In response to the letter MK Roman Bronfman (Yahad) urged Attorney-General Menahem Mazuz to "immediately open investigation" against the signed rabbis.

"The letter incites to harm innocent civilians. In a civilized country these things mustn't be said," Bronfman said, adding that it is even more problematic that some of those rabbis who signed the letter are state employees.

These guys are, to put it bluntly, religious extremists. Rabbi Lior, for instance, is the Chief rabbi of the Kiryat Arba settlement, considered the capital of extremist Orthodoxy- it is where Meir Kahane settled, where Kach and Kahane Chai were formed, and where many settler attacks against Arabs occur.


The issue of "prominence" is also particularly tricky: some of these men are certainly well-known in Israel, but are they representative of Orthodox Jewry? That really depends who you ask. They certainly have followers, but there's a large proportion of Orthodox Jews, including Israeli Orthodox Jews, who aren't far-right politically (and Lior's position is definitely FAR-right). The Orthodox in Israel tend to be conservative, yes, but there's a vast difference between conservative and "extremist". (That's not to say that there's no sympathy with religious extremism, territorial maximalism, or the illegal or undemocratic activities, violent and otherwise, comitted by these groups among the Orthodox. There certainly is, but sympathy- which is only held by some members of this group- should be distinguished from actual participation or inclusion with these activities and ideology.)

These radicals are of the same camp that condemned Yitzhak Rabin- indeed, two of the rabbis mentioned in the article, Lior and Melamed, actually signed the rabbinical decree that pronounced Rabin a "din rodef" and "din moser", effectively giving rabbinical sanction to his murder.

Another rabbi mentioned, Haim Druckman, is best-known in Israel for a gem of a law he tried to get passed two years ago: http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/Sh...=1&contrassID=2

A proposed law that would allow Jews to bar Arabs from buying homes in their communities could expose Israel to a fresh wave of condemnation recalling the now-rescinded UN resolution equating Zionism and racism, critics of the bill said Wednesday.

Incidentally, the law was condemened as racist and discriminatory and not passed.

It should also be noted that there are prominent rabbis in Israel who are quite progressive. Michael Melchior and David Hartman come to mind.

http://www.rhr.israel.net/

http://www.meimad.org.il/indexeng.asp

http://www.netivot-shalom.org.il

Right-wing extremists don't "own" Judaism- Orthodox or otherwise. No more than the Bin-Ladens and Khomenis own Islam, or Falwells and Robertsons own Christianity.

As far as Neturei Karta (who run jewsnotzionists.org) being a "defense"- I sharply disagree. Neturei Karta is just as extremist and, IMO, nuts, as their Zionist counterparts. Both groups believe in the supremacy of Jewish lives and rights over others, both groups demonize their opponents as sinners and non-humans... they are two sides of the same coin. I'm always shocked to hear anti-Zionists touting Neturei Karta as if they are somehow to be commended. I wonder what these people would say if they knew about Neturei Karta's position on INTERNAL Israeli affairs? How they stone cars that drive on the Sabbath, how they attack women dressed immodestly- they picket and torch shops that operate on the Sabbath, they try to embezzle money and engage in tax fraud because they don't "acknowledge' the government, etc...

These people are thugs. Zionists and otherwise. That's not to demonize Ultra-Orthodox Judaism as a whole, but Neutrei Karta is NOT representative of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, not even of the anti-Zionist spectrum. Lior and his fellows are, sadly, more representative of the religious-Zionist right, but even there, we must make a disctinction between people who merely buy into a maximalist Zionist ideology (which would include, for instance, the Likud), and those who are actually political and religious extremists, such as the Kach party.

know what you mean, and it is true. BUT: the Israeli state does not speak for all Jews in the world. Lot's of Jews in the world don't agree with the Sharon regime and what they do to opress others.

These people don't speak for the state of Israel (the majority of whom support a peace settlement), nor do they speak for Sharon. These people have condemned Sharon because they feel he is too "pro-peace". That should give you an idea of how right-wing they are.

Never fall in the trap of Sharon's propaganda, he thinks that he is speaking for all Jews in the world but like we have seen in the past, most Jews abroad that have acces to free media condem state terrorisme (and the opposite to of course) that is why their communities still support the neutral countries they live in, altough all the propaganda money of Likoed to try to get those free people to Israel (you know the story of the propaganda hate of Israel against the EU and even against the Jews that live here and prefere freedom above Israel and the mess it created).

Basil, READ the article. It doesn't say anything about Sharon. These guys have nothing to do with Sharon. Sharon is uninvolved with this story.

Better post some amnesty links that speak about the Israeli terror instead of speeking about the Jews in genereal, since the majority of Jews don't live in Israel and appart of the sponsors of the US republican right showed us true their leaders and free press that they have a different opinion then Sharons dictates.

What is with you and Sharon? You're obsessed.

You had to see what the French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Argentine, Russian aso Rabis and the press of those communities said last months/years to know what most "Jews" think, wich is different of what Orthodox Israelites and Likoed think.

Right now the Likud is undergoing a factional split, with Sharon being the more dovish of the two parties. And these people in the article, as I said, do not speak for all Orthodox Jews.

Whenever I personally meet a strongly zionist Jew, I slap them ... hard.

How enlightened of you. :rolleyes:

Tell me, exactly what constitutes a "strongly zionist Jew"?

Keruvlia, you must be the first Jewish person that is against the state of Israel.

The fact that you actually believe this should show you you really need to read more about Israeli and Zionist political history. Since the creation of the modern Zionist movement, there has always been a vocal minority (at one time, a majority) of anti-Zionist Jews, from the right and the left.

I agree with you about the Palestine / Israel thing but we can not turn back the clock. Isreal is there and will stay. We, in the old EU countries did a lot of wrong against the people from this believe over the ages, and specially last century (but don't forget the middle ages aso) but since we gave the Arrab teritories to the people who call themselves Israelite so long ago, we can not scrap this nation, th enation is a fact.

At least we can agree on something.

I think that Israel could find a sollution with a Swiss or Belgian system in wich nations every part of the people (different languages, not the religion wich makes it easier) have their rights and territory. Of course, Israel will have to pay back for what it did to the victims before getting this started.

I'm open to that, but if we're going to have Israel compensating Arabs, how about all the Arab countries that expelled their Jews (and kept their property) doing the same?

a famous jewish quote: enough already!! mo'kay :headbang: peace n luv man!!! :fluffle:

Also, try the Hassidics ... not a zionist in the bunch.

Wrong. Chabad-Lubavitch is extremely Zionist, in everything but name. They condemn relinquishing any territory to the Palestinians. In between Chabad and Satmar (which is where most of Neturei Karta gets its members), you have a whole spectrum of attitudes towards Zionism. Some are outright hostile, but most Hasidic groups maintain some level of pragmatic acceptance, particularly those within Israel.

I would refer people to this site to get a better understanding of the varieties of Orthodox Judaism, particularly in relation to Zionism.

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/363_Transp/08_Orthodoxy.html

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?
I'm not Jewish but just the same;

Look at your source. I mean, Al friggin Jazeera?
Who has verified the existence of the letter?
Who is the source that leaked (I'm assuming that is the drift here) it out.
Where are the denunciations? Surely some exist somewhere in the real world if in fact this document exists in a place other than their minds and Dan Rather's imagination.

Oh! One last question;
Are you a TRA clone?

Wrong. Chabad-Lubavitch is extremely Zionist

I'll take my twice monthly work with Chabad organizations over your forum post any day. I've never met a Lubavitch Zionist ... and I know a lot of Lubavitch.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?


You are taking something from an anti-jewish tv network like Al Jazeera and accepting that as truth?

You are taking something from an anti-jewish tv network like Al Jazeera and accepting that as truth?

Al Jazeera may be biased, but, like all biased media, they don't outright lie.

Are you a TRA clone?

What are you talking about? No, I'm not a TRA clone.

What I wanted to know was, specifically, what Biblical verse(s) could give people the idea that one group of people is superior to another.
As a Christian, I can kind of understand the thinking of people who kill abortion doctors, but I also know that it's wrong. I wanted to know if there was any verse(s) that supprted the ultra-Orthodox beliefs stated in the article I posted.
So please, if anyone can help me out here, I'd be very grateful. Sorry if I came off as anti-Jewish.


As a Christian the only thing I can understand about them is they are terrorists just like the men who are responsible for 9/11. Really its their lack of a real thinking process which gives them their reasons for doing such maniacal things.

Any real Christian knows that its God's job to deal out punishment. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

As a Christian the only thing I can understand about them is they are terrorists just like the men who are responsible for 9/11. Really its their lack of a real thinking process which gives them their reasons for doing such maniacal things.

Any real Christian knows that its God's job to deal out punishment. "Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone."

You mean the people that kill abortion doctors because they're "pro-life"?

These guys are, to put it bluntly, religious extremists. Rabbi Lior, for instance, is the Chief rabbi of the Kiryat Arba settlement, considered the capital of extremist Orthodoxy- it is where Meir Kahane settled, where Kach and Kahane Chai were formed, and where many settler attacks against Arabs occur.

I know they're religious extremists. What part of the Torah/Talmud are they misinterpreting?

I'll take my twice monthly work with Chabad organizations over your forum post any day. I've never met a Lubavitch Zionist ... and I know a lot of Lubavitch.

Don't take my word for it- take Chabad's and their rebbe's. ;)

Obviously, the first thing is to determine what constitutes a Zionist. As I said, I believe the Chabad movement is basically Zionist in every way but name- Chabad not only recognizes the government of Israel, but has its followers there pay taxes to it, and has been involved with Israeli government and affecting policy decisions. It has also lobbied world leaders on Israel's behalf, and Israel itself, in order to get various aspects of their own agenda furthered. Compare this with actual haredi anti-Zionists, like the Satmar Hasidism and Neturei Karta, who try to have as little to do with Israel and its government as possible, and denounce it and Zionism at seemingly every opportunity.

Most importantly, though, IMO, are the vast litany of statements by the Lubavitcher rebbe in which he repeatedly states very clearly that he is a territorial maximalist, that he believes in the sanctity and inviolatness of the state of Israel, including the Palestinian territories.

You say you know "a lot of Lubavitch"? Have you ever read anything the rebbe wrote in connection with the state of Israel?

Observe this website, for instance, apparently run by Chabad, which offers a wide variety of lectures and speeches given by the rebbe:

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/essays/17.htm

In literally hundreds of public addresses delivered since the Six Day War in 1967, the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson, explained why none of the liberated territories of the Land of Israel should be surrendered. Time and again he warned of the grave danger that the Camp David accords pose to its security. With the beginning of Operation Peace for the Galilee in 1982, the Rebbe called for the campaign to be carried through to its logical conclusion -- the complete elimination of the terrorist threat to Jewish lives. And soon after, when an Israeli commission of inquiry was instituted to investigate the killings in the Lebanese refuge camps, the Rebbe pointed out that since its sole purpose was to determine Jewish guilt in the matter, instead of determining who were the perpetrators and who issued the orders, this was a travesty of justice.

http://www.sichosinenglish.org/essays/25.htm

the Creator gave the Land of Israel to the Jewish people as an eternal heritage. No man thus has the moral right to decide to give away any portion of it.

I find both strange and threatening the report that the present government of Israel is prepared to surrender portions of the land to other nations. Although they call this autonomy, the diplomatic terminology used is of no consequence. In practice, they are laying the foundation for the establishment of a Palestinian state within Eretz Yisrael, forcing the withdrawal of a Jewish presence from large portions of Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and eventually ceding even the holy cities of Hebron and Jerusalem to the Arabs.

The willingness to discuss giving away portions of Eretz Yisrael reflects a lack of faith in G-d.

I helped establish the government headed by Prime Minister Shamir. If, however, Mr. Shamir continues the negotiations concerning autonomy, I will work to bring down his government.

Just as the Jews are G-d’s chosen people, the Land of Israel is G-d’s chosen land. It is a holy land given as an eternal inheritance to the entire Jewish people, those living in the land at present, and those presently living in the diaspora. Hence, no one is entitled to surrender any portion of Eretz Yisrael to gentiles.

Maintaining possession of this land is the only path to peace.

Succumbing to the pressure to surrender any part of it will only invite additional pressure, weakening the security of the Jewish people and exposing them to danger. The government in Eretz Yisrael must follow the path of peace, but also must realize that the path to peace depends on maintaining possession of every portion of the land which G-d has granted us.

May the above hasten the coming of Mashiach who will lead our entire people to Eretz Yisrael. Our Sages declared, "In the month of Nisan our people were redeemed from Egypt, and in Nisan they will be redeemed by the Messiah."

Sounds pretty Zionist to me. Hell, he sounds like a religious Jabotinsky.

Also check out Askmoses.com, run by Chabad.

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=1348

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=2428

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=403

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=2426

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=2427

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?h=120&o=18686

The Torah clearly indicates that the Messiah will be the one who will gather all the exiled Jews and rebuild the Temple, ushering in the Era of Redemption.

This does not preclude Jews from settling in the Land of Israel. To the contrary, living in the Land of Israel is considered to be a great mitzvah, and living there certainly allows a person to be a more spiritual person.

However, Zionism and the State of Israel are not a substitute for the Redemption which the Messiah will bring. All those who thought that it was a viable alternative have been sorely disappointed by more than five decades of strife and terrorism.

http://www.askmoses.com/qa_detail.html?o=406

Some parts of the Kingdom of Jordan were settled by two-and-a-half of the Twelve Tribes, and Gaza (which has its own ancient synagogue) is ALL part of our Holy land of Israel. Our people actually lived and flourished in these sites for hundreds and thousands of years. Our right to the land did not expire because we were FORCED to leave.

However, some parts of the MODERN State of Israel are not holy since they are NOT part of our ancestors’ land, such as the Negev Desert and the city of Eilat.

We are required to PROTECT ourselves from danger, and cutting the land into pieces and giving OUR land away to people who are trying to destroy us (using the weapons WE provided them and the cities we gave them), are CLEARLY opposed by Jewish law. We are not permitted to give away land so that terrorism can be cultivated! In Jewish law, a Jew is not allowed to hand over ANY parts of the Holy Land to a non-Jew. Giving the land away only brings more danger upon our people, as we witness these days.

More stuff:

http://www.chabadcu.org/templates/articlecco.html?AID=157561

In conjunction with Birthright Israel and Mayanot, Chabad of Champaign-Urbana is proud to offer free & fun 10-day tours of Israel. The goal of our exciting tours is to inspire in our participants, a stronger connection to the Jewish people, Jewish life and to the Jewish State of Israel while having a great time!

http://www.chabaduchicago.com/templates/articlecco.html?AID=86783

If you are considering a trip with Birthright Israel you have many options to choose from.

You owe it to yourself to discover why Chabad is the largest trip provider in the world!

http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/349_myths_and_facts_abou.htm

(From a pro-Chabad website.)

5. MYTH:
Chabad does not support the state of Israel.

FACT:
Chabad, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe in particular, strongly support Israel and is deeply involved in defending its value and right to exist. Many Chabadnicks serve in the IDF and others contribute practical and spiritual support to the troops. Chabad has over 150 centers in Israel, as well as, dozens of educational facilities around the country. Lubavitch trained Rabbis often complete their training in Israeli Yeshivot.

From Chabad.org:

http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/timeline.asp?AID=62173

The Rebbe was in constant communication with Israeli government and military leaders on matters of safety and security.

Whenever the issue of “land for peace treaties” came to the fore, the Rebbe, as he did on every issue, would look to the Torah for guidance. The Rebbe found that Torah law sets forth the criteria necessary for Israel’s peace and safety: these can only be achieved from a position of strength and confidence. Any sign of weakness or self-doubt, he insisted, is sure to encourage Israel’s adversaries toward further aggression and terrorism.

Chabad.com:

http://www.chabad.com/therebbe.cfm

Many prime ministers, politicians and policymakers from the state of Israel routinely deliberated with the Rebbe concerning the forming of political, economic and military policies. General Ariel Sharon once proclaimed following an audience with the Rebbe that "this man sitting in Brooklyn, New York, is intimately familiar with the geographic, demographic and political forces that shape the character of the State of Israel".

Amongst the famous personalities who visited with the Rebbe to receive his blessings and advice were Prime Ministers Yitzchak Rabin, Menachem Begin, Yitzchak Shamir, Shimon Peres and Benjamin Netenyahu. Members of the Knesset, ministers and army generals including General Ariel Sharon, President Zalman Shazar and Foreign Minister Abba Eban, also came to visit with the Rebbe

Let's see.. he was giving his BLESSINGS to the Zionist Prime Ministers, MKs, and IDF Generals of a state to whose very EXISTENCE he and his followers were allegedly opposed? Something's not right here.

Chabad, or at least my impression of it, seems to be characterized by a messianic Zionism- the idea that the modern state of Israel is not THE END GOAL, because there's still the messianic age, but there's certainly no criticism of the state of Israel's existence, much less condemnation like you'll find from Neutrei Karta. Zionism and the state of Israel are not treated like curse words. Chabad seems to see Israel, at the very least, as a necessary evil that has a lot of potential benefits for Jews, and they are particularly hawkish on issues relating to territorial concessions, placing them firmly on the right-wing of the Israeli political spectrum- farther right than, say, Ariel Sharon.

Perhaps we are merely disagreeing over the definition of the term "Zionist"? I personally don't see how Schneerson, and by extension Chabad as a movement, can, in light of these past statements and political stances, be seen as anything but Zionist.

What's your take?

I know they're religious extremists. What part of the Torah/Talmud are they misinterpreting?

I believe the article, as well as the various ones I posted, referred to it:

The rabbis quoted a Talmudic edict, or religious ruling, stating that "our lives come first".

I know very little Talmud, but to me this sounds reminiscient of a Talmudic adage that "if an enemy comes to kill you, kill him first". The rationale is that one is always obligated to act, even kill, in self-defense.

... Ah, here we go.

http://jewish.com/askarabbi/askarabbi/askr5104.htm

The Talmud - Mas. Berachoth 58a we learn "If a man comes to kill you, rise early and kill him first." This lesson is derived by the Rabbis from Ex. XXII, 1 which declares it legitimate to kill a burglar who is prepared to commit murder.

The Jerusalem post points out another source:

Part of the letter hinges on the teachings of Rabbi Akiva a 2nd century AD scholar, who preached that while one should respect above all one's neighbor, there are choices to be made, specifically "our lives first."

The Akiva quote is addressed here:

http://www.jlaw.com/Commentary/whatcost.html

In Jewish law, there is a biblical obligation to save lives. The Biblical verse "You may not stand idly by your neighbours blood" (Leviticus 19:15) is understood by the Talmud to be an obligation to save people from danger (Sanhedrin 73a). However, it is necessary to define the parameters of this obligation. Does the bystander have to endanger himself to save the victim? Does the bystander have to spend money to save the victim's life?

The Talmud (Bava Metzia 62a) discusses the case of two people who are travelling the desert and only one of them has sufficient water to survive. Ben Petura is of the opinion that it is better that they divide the water and both die, rather than have one watch the death of the other. Rabbi Akiva is of the opinion that "your life comes first", that the owner of the water must save his life first, even if the other person will die. Rabbi Akiva's opinion has become the Halachic consensus. While it is clear that one may not sacrifice his life to save the life of another, there is some debate if there is an obligation to save lives when it will endanger the bystander. The Hagahot Maimoni (Rotzeach 1:14) is of the opinion that it is obligatory for the bystander to place himself in uncertain danger in order to save the victim from certain danger. Others argue that it is forbidden to do so, and that the principle of "your life comes first" applies to uncertain danger as well (Radvaz in Pitchei Teshuva YD 157:15). Based on this opinion, some authorities forbid a donor from giving a kidney to dying patient if it will place the donor in some danger (Tzitz Eliezer 13:101; Minchat Yitzchak 6:103). Rabbi Moshe Feinstein takes a middle point of view. It is not obligatory to place yourself in a situation of questionable danger to save another person's life; However, you may choose to take this risk in order to save a life. Therefore, he rules it is permitted to donate kidneys, even if there is some danger to the donor. (YD 2:174)

What is interesting is that the Akiva example has absolutely nothing to do with war, although I can see the implicit connection, particularly the debate over whether it is in fact, "an obligation to save lives when it will endanger the bystander". The fact is, though, that the debate continues, and there is no clear consensus in regards to uncertain danger.

I would suspect that the bit about killing enemy civilians in a time of war being acceptable is mostly likely related to the passages in the books of Joshua and Judges, and possibly a few other places where the Torah basically takes a "no-mercy" approach to utterly exterminating the enemy nations the Israelites are at war with.

As noted here, http://judaism.about.com/library/3_intro/level2/bl_war.htm, there are particular Jewish standards set up regarding how one should conduct a "moral war":

Jewish war ethics attempts to balance the value of maintaining human life with the necessity of fighting a war.

Judaism is somewhat unique in that it demands adherence to Jewish values even while fighting a war.

...Pursue Peace Before Waging War

Prior to any military action against an army, Jews must pursue peace. When God commanded the Israelites to fight a war, conquer a nation, in ancient times, the Torah instructed the Jewish people to first ask for and offer peace prior to attacking. If the other nation agreed to peace under Jewish rule, then it was forbidden for the Israelites to attack the nation.

...Where a civilian population is involved, Jews must do more than just pursue peace. They must allow civilians who are not interested in fighting to flee.

...Maintain Sensitivity to Human Life

Judaism codifies laws that demand sensitivity to human life during war.

When in battle, a Jewish army must not completely surround the enemy on all four sides. The army must leave one side open in order to allow non-combatants to flee and needless bloodshed to be avoided.

When a Jewish army is victorious, soldiers are not permitted to rejoice. Jewish soldiers can be happy that the war is over and they have not lost their lives, but they are not allowed to celebrate the deaths of other human beings. Even if the enemy was completely despicable, they were still creations of God and their death can not be celebrated.

It would seem that the rabbis are just blatantly misrepresenting the classic Jewish position on warfare, particularly as it relates to civilians.

Hope this was helpful.

Also in regards to Jebustan and Mr Basil Fawlty linking these guys with Sharon...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/477956.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/478076.html

http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El4129&enZone=Politics&enVersion=0

In addition to the anonymous phone threats and signs of Sharon nose-thumbing, the media and police are making a commotion about a fringe rabbi who said he was willing to carry out a mystical ceremony that would curse the prime minister so he would die.

"If the rabbis ask me to carry out a pulsa denura curse, I will be willing to do so at once," Rabbi Yosef Dayan of the Samarian settlement of Psagot told Channel 2 News Tuesday evening. "There are people who wish for the death of Prime Minister Sharon. I am one of them. Am I forbidden to wish?" he added.

Pulsa Denura explained here:

http://www.peacenow.org/nia/peace/v5i2.html

“The rabbis of Israel will hold a pulsa denura ceremony [mystical rite directed against a person with the intention of bringing about his death] against them.”

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?r104:E07NO5-125:

Yitzhak Rabin was not killed by one man, even though only one man pulled the trigger. Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a group of fundamentalist Jews who simply could not accept the reality of the new world in which they lived. A little less than 2 weeks ago, Yitzhak Rabin was protrayed as a Nazi; several months ago a group of Orthodox rabbis said it was God's will not to obey the orders of Israel's military if you did not agree with them. In this week's issue of the Jerusalem Report, there is an article which tells of a Kabbalistic curse placed on the Prime Minister. He was cursed with `pulsa denura,' lashes of fire, for his heretical policies. And so, say these mystics, he must die. As the Aramaic text stated, `we have permission to demand from the angels of destruction that they take a sword to this wicked man, to kill him, for handing over the Land of Israel to our enemies, the sons of Ishmael.' This curse was issued on Yom Kippur, Oct. 4, and it was to take place with 30 days. Mr. Rabin was killed Nov. 4.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/books/1998/9812.brook.death.html

In October 1995, on the eve of Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, a group of Israelis led by Avigdor Eskin gathered outside the home of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. Wrapped in prayer shawls, they intoned the ancient Aramaic chant Pulsa da-Nura ("Lashes of Fire"), a Kabbalistic curse: "I deliver to you, the angels of wrath and ire, Yitzhak, the son of Rosa Rabin, that you may smother him and the specter of him, and cast him into bed, and dry up his wealth, and plague his thoughts, and scatter his mind that he may be steadily diminished until he reaches his death. Put to death the cursed Yitzhak. May [he] be damned, damned, damned!" After Rabin's assassination one month later - as Israel and the world mourned a great statesman - Eskin boasted of his prowess on Israeli television. The curse worked.

Oh yeah, these guys are BEST PALS. :rolleyes:

First of all, dont take anything said by Al-Jazeera for granted..
Their objectivity is non existant.

Second of all, can a religious leader who calls for the deaths of people be considered a religious extremist?
Im jewish, my religion calls to cherish life more then anything else! any other jew who supports killing innocent people isnt following the jewish religion and cant even be considered a religios extremist! (as he is defiling one of the main laws of judiasm).

Suicide bombers and other extreme murderous terrorists monsters arent religious extremists as well! If any of you bothered to even look at Islam you'll learn that is a beautiful peaceful religion merely twisted by corrupted leaders (Both religious and political).

And third, after what the Christians did all along history they have no right to judge other religions on that manner.

You can never stop the thought of one person who tells his or her followers to kill. For thousand of years men and women have killed because of their religious beliefs. Everybody and every news station always want to invoke a reaction for their own benefit. There is no one true cause but the cause of a man on a mission. We’ll never stop the bloodshed because theirs always someone who thinks they are right.

-Peace.

:sniper:

sounds similar to rulings by radical muslims before they slice off a head....
also c'mon tell me there is no bias in that story...why even work up a discussion on this when the enquirer has a new elvis alien baby story.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?

Wow that guy is actually defending Hitlers concentrationcamps :D
Killing enemy civilians during war is right!

What a wanker. Anyhow, I just read an article, many many many israelis aren't extremist jewish versions of taliban like those extreme colonist sephardic jews in Israel.

I think everyone already pointed out the obvious and I agree, but I just can't get over the fact that you quote Aljazeera quoting Jews or Rabbi's. I mean that has to be the most biased thing I have ever seen in my life...well, other than asking Gerbels or Goering anything about the jews and taking their word on it.

Lamo-award.... :headbang:

But still they have got a valid source, a letter signed by a whole bunch of rabbis, so it can't be that unbias.

Maybe I should have rephrased myself when I started this thread. What I meant was for Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews to defend those statements.

And just because the story came from Al Jazeera doesn't mean that it never happened.

Just like one says: "everything Michael Moore and Noam Chomsky say are lies, they are non-patriotic commie-pinkoes and they burn american flags as a hobby". There is always truth, at least a bit and mostly a whole lot, they can't afford to give wrong info...the government on the other hand, they got the means, tell lies and afterwards if it comes out, they blame some CIA burocrat and sack 'em (all orchestrated people!).

Jews aren't a moral people. They've sucked the blood out of every culture and society they've ever been a part of. They predominate in the Bush administration, calling themselves neocons, and were responsible for a war in Iraq that had more to do with protecting Israel than it did protecting America.

And if Bush wins the election, our next target will probably be Iran. But is Iran a threat to us? No, but it's a threat to Israel. David Frum, the Jew who coined the "Axis of Evil" phrase, says it is. So do many other neocons - most of them Jewish. So more American lives will be spent to protect the land of the Jew. Tragic.

Could you replace the word "Jews" maybe with "some jews"? Don't ever generalise (I know I do sometimes, but I try hard not to, it appears to be something human, an easier way of thinking). Every member of the Government has its own interests and will defend statements that helps their interests, so it could be you're right about some jews in the American politics who use their influence to for instance protect Israël.

I'm not defending a war, actually I'm very mad about that second, and totally unnecesary invasion in Iraq. I yesterday saw a posting in an other thread that pretty much sums up why I very much dislike the American invasion. I saw a documentary about it before the latest invasion. A german scientist collected samples of american shells. Kids were playing with the shells. He took some with him. The German police arrested him when he arrived in the airport on the charges of bringing dangerous nuclear waste on German territory. This movie isn't unbiassed: http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html

I forgot who posted it, but it pretty much sums up what was told in that documentary (it was a UK USA documentary if I'm not mistaken), so I'm greatfull and I think americans should consider this info before they re elect that warnut.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?

So?
Not every Jew stood up and said it.
It's like the old 'Jews killed Christ' thing; not every Jew past present and future queued up to bang in the nails. Most you could blame is a few who didn't exactly have the popular opinion in mind.

But still they have got a valid source, a letter signed by a whole bunch of rabbis, so it can't be that unbias.

Well, they don't actually have the letter. They claim to have the letter. In reality, no news service has actually posted the letter.

The problem many people are pointing out with Al-Jazeera in particular is that it is known for being biased against Jews and Israel in general, and specifically within this article, it is evident that they make no attempt, as Israeli articles have done, to properly contextualize these people and identify to their readers where these rabbis are located within Israeli- and Jewish- political and religious thought.

The result is the impression that these guys are somehow representative of a major component of religious Zionism, which isn't true. And then you have other people, such as Jebustan and Mr Basil Fawlty, who tack on further misconceptions to the original one, such as that these guys are representative of Orthodox Judaism as a whole, or Israeli public opinion. And it creates a snowball effect.

That's the problem with the Al-Jazeera article.

Well, they don't actually have the letter. They claim to have the letter. In reality, no news service has actually posted the letter.

The problem many people are pointing out with Al-Jazeera in particular is that it is known for being biased against Jews and Israel in general, and specifically within this article, it is evident that they make no attempt, as Israeli articles have done, to properly contextualize these people and identify to their readers where these rabbis are located within Israeli- and Jewish- political and religious thought.

The result is the impression that these guys are somehow representative of a major component of religious Zionism, which isn't true. And then you have other people, such as Jebustan and Mr Basil Fawlty, who tack on further misconceptions to the original one, such as that these guys are representative of Orthodox Judaism as a whole, or Israeli public opinion. And it creates a snowball effect.

That's the problem with the Al-Jazeera article.

My feeling is they got the letter and it contains what they're saying. I know Al-Jazeera is contra the Israeli occupation of Palestin lands, but still I don't think they can afford to just suck a story out of their thumbs, with the whole world (especially the jewish world) looking for any small mistake they make. And for I've heard (saw some colonist stating very harsh words, almost Nazi progaganda against palestines) the extremist Jews are very capable of having said such things. And again I point out that you're very right that but a small percentage of the Jews actually support those harsh statements. Most of them want the government to stop waging war against the Palestinians. But the leading party is filled with hardcore sephardic jews...

*gets a 404 when clicking that link*
The story has apparently been pulled.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?


I think everyone has already covered the most important points, including the fact that its stupid to paint an entire group of people spread around the entire world, with several varying branches of belief wit the same bloody brush.

ESPECIALLY SINCE ALJAZEERA EVEN POINT OUT THAT ITS A FEW RABBIS ONLY THAT SAID THIS AND THAT THEY ARE ORTHODOX AND ULTRA-ORTHODOX. WHICH A DENOMINATION MAKE UP A MINORITY OF PEOPLE FOLLOWING THE JEWISH FAITH!!!!!!!!!

also the sad thing is.....morality is subjective.

And then you have other people, such as Jebustan and Mr Basil Fawlty, who tack on further misconceptions to the original one, such as that these guys are representative of Orthodox Judaism as a whole, or Israeli public opinion. And it creates a snowball effect.



Your words, can you proove that "I have a misconseption such like these guys are representative of Orthodox Judaism as a whole"? Thought that I have not. :rolleyes: I know that those guys in the article are just an exeption but the reallity of the common Israeli is allready extremist enough since most still support the regime of Sharon and don't wan't to give enough land back tothe ones it was stolen from.

BTW, if there is a snowball efect then it must be the one started by the Israeli regime, there is another snowballl efect and that is that even in the US, the people are fed up with the eternal stateterrorisme as an answer to terrorisme that was created by: landgrabbing, creating this huge refugee problem aso. Israel musty be blind if it does not understand that it is losing his last supporters and sponsors this way.

Alright jebustan, first things first. One; your a complete moron to blame an entire race of people for what some idiots said about the war in Isreal. Although you may not be anti-semite, that still doesn't mean you have to blame a minority.

............

So my friend i ending of this, You should read up and look further into a story before you go pointing fingers and shouting accusations.

I agree (except with the flaming)...


But why don't I see this same post in the anti-Islam topics??.. After all, we're dealing with the same issue here, right?.. Fundamentalist bastards toiling religion?

Your words, can you proove that "I have a misconseption such like these guys are representative of Orthodox Judaism as a whole"?

That was my impression of what you were saying. If this is incorrect, I apologize. However, you did say the following:

know what you mean, and it is true. BUT: the Israeli state does not speak for all Jews in the world. Lot's of Jews in the world don't agree with the Sharon regime and what they do to opress others.

The fact that you refer to "the Israeli state" and "the Sharon regime" when, in fact, the article refers only to a group of extremist rabbis DOES imply that, at the very least, you believe that they are representative of Israel public opinion, which was the last part of the sentence I wrote [which you cut off, I noticed].

I know that those guys in the article are just an exeption but the reallity of the common Israeli is allready extremist enough

This IS indeed a misconception, as well as highly subjective. And I'd like to see you attempt to prove it.

since most still support the regime of Sharon and don't wan't to give enough land back tothe ones it was stolen from.

Prove it.

BTW, if there is a snowball efect then it must be the one started by the Israeli regime

Explain, please.

there is another snowballl efect and that is that even in the US, the people are fed up with the eternal stateterrorisme as an answer to terrorisme that was created by: landgrabbing, creating this huge refugee problem aso. Israel musty be blind if it does not understand that it is losing his last supporters and sponsors this way.

Actually, modern Arab terrorism against Jews predated any "landgrabbing". Arab riots against Jews date back to the mid-1920s.

My feeling is they got the letter and it contains what they're saying. I know Al-Jazeera is contra the Israeli occupation of Palestin lands, but still I don't think they can afford to just suck a story out of their thumbs, with the whole world (especially the jewish world) looking for any small mistake they make.

I wasn't implying that they had made up the story, merely pointing out that no news service, Israeli or otherwise, has actually posted the entire text of the letter.

But the leading party is filled with hardcore sephardic jews...

Which party are you talking about?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BB82FCC4-F4D4-495F-8637-C3008159E1C8.htm


How can any moral person say things like that?
Al Jazeera... No, Im sure Al Jazeera is not predjudiced against Jews at all! No way Al Jazeera hates Israel and wants to drive the Jewish people into the sea!

Wow that guy is actually defending Hitlers concentrationcamps :D

How am I defending the Nazis, asshole? Don't even answer. Fuck you, bitch! If you pulled your head out of ass and read a little more of my posts, you'd realize that I'm not anti-Jewish, or a Nazi. I'm not defending anyone or anything. I'm asking other people to defend, or at least explain, what the rabbis said.

Al Jazeera... No, Im sure Al Jazeera is not predjudiced against Jews at all! No way Al Jazeera hates Israel and wants to drive the Jewish people into the sea!

The source doesn't matter. Quit saying "oooh! This guys using an Al Jazeera source, so the contents of the letter must be made up!" The letter still exists. Al Jazeera went into more detail about what it said, probably because they don't like Israel. BUT THE MOTIVE DOESN'T MATTER!! ONLY THE FACTS MATTER!!!

Actually, modern Arab terrorism against Jews predated any "landgrabbing". Arab riots against Jews date back to the mid-1920s.

The same could be said for the Zionists. They weren't exactly peaceful people, either.

How am I defending the Nazis, asshole? Don't even answer. Fuck you, bitch! If you pulled your head out of ass and read a little more of my posts, you'd realize that I'm not anti-Jewish, or a Nazi. I'm not defending anyone or anything. I'm asking other people to defend, or at least explain, what the rabbis said.

Actually, I think he was talking about the rabbis mentioned in the article- the whole, "you can kill civilians" thing.

Calm down.

The source doesn't matter.

I don't think in this case the source's bias discredits the story, since it's been corroborated by other sources. But saying that the source of a story doesn't matter is generally untrue. It might not always be super-important, but it DOES matter.

Al Jazeera went into more detail about what it said

No it didn't. The articles I cited went into just as much detail, if not more.

BUT THE MOTIVE DOESN'T MATTER!! ONLY THE FACTSMATTER!!!

And, as pointed out by me earlier, Al Jazeera left out some important facts in reporting this story- like mentioning how fringe these people are.

The same could be said for the Zionists.

No, it couldn't, because I wasn't talking about the overall history of Arab-Zionist violence, merely refuting the untrue statement that Arab terrorism was a reaction to Zionist "landgrabbing". This is patently false, since we have Arab terrorism against Jews occuring over 20 years before the creation of Israel, and prior to that, there was nothing going on that could be considered "landgrabbing".

Saying "this applies to Zionists, too" shows that you miss the point. I was responding to a specific claim about the origins of Arab violence against Jews. The argument (and my rebuttal) obviously doesn't apply to the Zionists, particularly since there was no Arab "landgrab" for Zionists to respond to with violence.

They weren't exactly peaceful people, either.

I never made that claim, nor did I imply that Arabs were particularly "unpeaceful". I was merely responding to a false point made by someone else, and I stand by my statement.

I think everyone already pointed out the obvious and I agree, but I just can't get over the fact that you quote Aljazeera quoting Jews or Rabbi's. I mean that has to be the most biased thing I have ever seen in my life...well, other than asking Gerbels or Goering anything about the jews and taking their word on it.

Lamo-award.... :headbang:
I cna think of several more biased things, actually. Such as trusting anything said on Fox News, for instance.

The source doesn't matter. Quit saying "oooh! This guys using an Al Jazeera source, so the contents of the letter must be made up!" The letter still exists. Al Jazeera went into more detail about what it said, probably because they don't like Israel. BUT THE MOTIVE DOESN'T MATTER!! ONLY THE FACTS MATTER!!!

Then we'd better let out all the criminals we have held against their will in prison.
After all, the motive for locking them up was because they were dangerous, but that doesn't matter, the fact is that they are being held against their will and liberty is all important.

Jews aren't a moral people. They've sucked the blood out of every culture and society they've ever been a part of. They predominate in the Bush administration, calling themselves neocons, and were responsible for a war in Iraq that had more to do with protecting Israel than it did protecting America.

And if Bush wins the election, our next target will probably be Iran. But is Iran a threat to us? No, but it's a threat to Israel. David Frum, the Jew who coined the "Axis of Evil" phrase, says it is. So do many other neocons - most of them Jewish. So more American lives will be spent to protect the land of the Jew. Tragic.


Ummmm, im sorry , your name says it all.

Im not a jew, but i do in fact genuinly like them. I have even considered conversion. And Jews are about 500 times more moral than someone who wants to destroy them.

So, please, stop the neo-nazi bitching. For all our sakes. And for your information, alot of jews i know dont like israeli politics. Of course, they like it a lot more than your alternative, but thats just a little human instinct called "self preservation"

Actually, modern Arab terrorism against Jews predated any "landgrabbing". Arab riots against Jews date back to the mid-1920s.

And vice versa since the creation of Israel. Any other words for "landgrabbing"?

Try "stealing" or "Israel"

And vice versa since the creation of Israel. Any other words for "landgrabbing"?

Try "stealing" or "Israel"

I don't see how that's relevant to my point. Read my earlier post in response to Jebustan. Particularly the last few paragraphs.

Then we'd better let out all the criminals we have held against their will in prison.
After all, the motive for locking them up was because they were dangerous, but that doesn't matter, the fact is that they are being held against their will and liberty is all important.

I'm just quoting you because you're so stupid!!

BUMP- Keruvalia, any thoughts on my Chabad post?

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7029087&postcount=65

The content of this is idiotic upon these two points:

1) Those rabbis are fundamentalists - What normal person likes a fundie?
2) Al-Jazeera speaks out of both sides of its mouth - it's not to be trusted

And vice versa since the creation of Israel. Any other words for "landgrabbing"?

Try "stealing" or "Israel"

I have my opinion about the conflict, but what you say is a bit simple.