NationStates Jolt Archive

Lets discuss it.

For begginers, the Bible Code is a code in the five books of Moses. It has been believed to exist for centuries and notable mathematicians such as Sir Isaac Newton spent much of their lives pursuing it. It wasn't until the 20th Century and the advent of computers that the code could really be discovered.

I will post a link soon on how it works, but those who saw the History Channel programs or read the book will be familiar with it.

The Bible code uses mathematical sequences to find hidden messages encoded in the Torah. So many have been found that random chance has been pretty much eliminated since when you take a book of similar size as the 5 books you get maybe 1 prediction versus the many in the Torah.

Usually the prediction isn't known until the even occurs. Predictions range from major events such as WWII to the names of famous Rabbis such as Rabbi Ben Eleazor.

Only once had the code been broken in time to get a message out. In the Summer of 1995 code researchers uncovered the predicted assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin. They informed the Israeli Government, who took increased security measures. They unfortunately failed and Rabin was killed a few months later.

The predictions aren't vague like Nostradamus. In the decoded part refering to RFK's assassination the name of the assassin is given as S Sirhan.

Unfortunately, it is rare to predict before the event as the computer program written to decode the Torah requires you to search for the correct words, something hard to do when you don't know what you are looking for.

I'll be searching for a link and if anyone wants to discuss go ahead.

here is a good link to learn about the code origins

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/24

An interesting point that helps back it up is that the New Testament (written by man) has no such code, while the 5 books of Moses,which are supposedly written by the Lord, are encoded

come on, someone please post

The way the code is presented is that the predictions aren't set in stone and that there is always a way to avoid the outcome of that prediction. I find that part interesting.

If you say no or yes at least make a post as to why and have a debate

An interesting point that helps back it up is that the New Testament (written by man) has no such code, while the 5 books of Moses,which are supposedly written by the Lord, are encoded

I believe this code exists but I have to research it more, Issac Newton himself spent years looking for it, but ran out of time, it was only until man developed computers which could unscramble all the codes that this was revealed, which says to me this is evidence that we are in the last days as foretold in Revelations and by Nostradamus.

I believe this code exists but I have to research it more, Issac Newton himself spent years looking for it, but ran out of time, it was only until man developed computers which could unscramble all the codes that this was revealed, which says to me this is evidence that we are in the last days as foretold in Revelations and by Nostradamus.

Newton tried to use the codes to prove the existance of God, but the way the code works I don't care who you are, it is near impossible to decode without a good computer. I've read the book and have the computer program, if I could read Hebrew I'd be able to take a crack at it.

Anyone who reads Hebrew can do it with the program.

Even if we are nearing the end of times as foretold, the Bible code is like a message saying this is what may happen, but if you do this the
World will continue and Armageddon will be avoided, at least for now.

Even if we are nearing the end of times as foretold, the Bible code is like a message saying this is what may happen, but if you do this the
World will continue and Armageddon will be avoided, at least for now.

Not if the King of the North - King George II has his way.

Not if the King of the North - King George II has his way.
can you shut up with the politics. If you want to debate that go to another thread

I may be wrong in this, but Muslims say that the nature of the Quran indicates a level of knowledge beyond the human sphere.
If these predictions were reliable enough to be recognised before an event (Surely 9/11 would be a relevant prediction?), they might have some use, but they're just being used as parlour tricks to con rubes into believing. The text of any religion should stand on its own two feet without trickery.

can you shut up with the politics. If you want to debate that go to another thread

Gee calm down tiger, it wasn't politics, but rather prophacy from Revelation...

I may be wrong in this, but Muslims say that the nature of the Quran indicates a level of knowledge beyond the human sphere.
If these predictions were reliable enough to be recognised before an event (Surely 9/11 would be a relevant prediction?), they might have some use, but they're just being used as parlour tricks to con rubes into believing. The text of any religion should stand on its own two feet without trickery.

Explaining the code is difficult. We don't know the mindset of God or whatever else may have written the code. Enough clues are left that it is possible to figure it out, but you aren't always going to be able to.

You have to know exactly what you are looking for and unfortunately that all too often comes too late

Gee calm down tiger, it wasn't politics, but rather prophacy from Revelation...
sorry, I get jumpy and am in a fallout shelter to avoid political shit being thrown around and have had it with damn political bickering, I've been trying to avoid General

sorry, I get jumpy and am in a fallout shelter to avoid political shit being thrown around and have had it with damn political bickering, I've been trying to avoid General

Its ok mate, just with the Wars and Rumors of wars, King George makes since as the King of the North - not political in any way but rather Biblical

to suggest that the torah is written directly by god seems a bit silly to me

its not like we have the original hebrew texts from..... geez how long ago would it have to be? 3000 years ago?

the part where it takes a computer to find the code seems rather suspicious to me too. so god put in predictions tht we can only find well after they occur because we didnt have the right equipment at the time?

ill just keep with NO

Isn't it very silly to look for hidden messages from God in a book that's God's Word? I mean, if you want to know what God thinks, He'll tell you if you just read the thing.

Isn't it very silly to look for hidden messages from God in a book that's God's Word? I mean, if you want to know what God thinks, He'll tell you if you just read the thing.
There are some things in it that aren't meant to be known at the time it is written, but to be discovered when needed. The code can only be discovered by computer and with the turmoil today we certantly need it

to suggest that the torah is written directly by god seems a bit silly to me

its not like we have the original hebrew texts from..... geez how long ago would it have to be? 3000 years ago?

the part where it takes a computer to find the code seems rather suspicious to me too. so god put in predictions tht we can only find well after they occur because we didnt have the right equipment at the time?

ill just keep with NO

The Torah is unchanged. Amazing as it is to believe every Torah is 100% identical in words and letters or it isn't a Kosher Torah.

It takes a computer as ELS code can't be done without one, or if attempted would take decades

There are some things in it that aren't meant to be known at the time it is written, but to be discovered when needed. The code can only be discovered by computer and with the turmoil today we certantly need it

No, we do know all we need to. That's why God doesn't appear in clouds or burning bushes. Jesus said this- "It is Finished".

Point 2: We don't discover these things when we need them. You use a computer to sort through a LOT of text for specific keywords AFTER these things happen. There's no point to it if after the fact we go, "So THAT'S what He meant."

Point 3: This can be done with any long book on the planet. I've personally seen people do it with War and Peace, but whatever. Just choose what prophecy you want, search it up and there you go.

The Torah is unchanged. Amazing as it is to believe every Torah is 100% identical in words and letters or it isn't a Kosher Torah.

It takes a computer as ELS code can't be done without one, or if attempted would take decades

im not doubting that TODAYS torah's are all the same

it was my impression, im not a torah scholar of any sort, that the current version was "endorsed" back in the middle ages some time. as opposed to the time of moses or some other way early time that it would have had to be if it were directly written by god.

Explaining the code is difficult. We don't know the mindset of God or whatever else may have written the code. Enough clues are left that it is possible to figure it out, but you aren't always going to be able to.

You have to know exactly what you are looking for and unfortunately that all too often comes too late

So, it's basically a parlour trick God or whoever has worked in? It should be possible to set up a computer to find grammatical sequences of actual names and words in the Torah. Just hook it up and let it go. You can look for fractal patterns while you're at it. If the predictions produced are accurate to frequency greater than chance could produce, there might be a case, but it seems no-one's compiled such a complete list, they've just Googled it for what they want to find.

im not doubting that TODAYS torah's are all the same

it was my impression, im not a torah scholar of any sort, that the current version was "endorsed" back in the middle ages some time. as opposed to the time of moses or some other way early time that it would have had to be if it were directly written by god.

In fact, there is clear evidence of changes in the Torah... primary example being the name of 'god'.

The earliest 'Torah' documents give the name YHWH, unaccented.

(This is because it was considered acceptable, at that point, for anyone to say the name YHWH)

Later "Torah' documents 'alter' the word, by adding sound 'points' for the word Adonay, to influence the pronunciation - since, at this late time, it was considered a blasphemy to say the name aloud.

Surely, if the text were inspired by 'god', and incapable of error, this alteration could not have occured to the text.

This would also render arguments of the 'truth' of the bible-code baseless, since the 'word of god' (even if it WAS divine in inspiration) has been edited by man.

I found an interesting quote of Scripture tonight, that brought all this sort of stuff to mind. Mind you, I am Christian but do not accept the notion of this coding stuff. I'm concerned that engaging in that kind of thing can end up distracting from the main message of the Bible.

This was something Jesus said in the middle of telling the Pharisees off. The Pharisees were really into nitpicking every little detail of the Torah: "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." (John 5:39-40)

I think this is one of the risks entailed in fixating upon this sort of "Bible code" stuff. Although I hadn't found this particular Scripture quote at the time, I actually had a real-life discussion to this effect with someone who claimed that supposedly the names of all of those to be saved were encoded in the Bible and so on. The problem is, though, if you channelize on that sort of idea, it makes you quit paying attention to the big issues, like loving your neighbor and the central tenets of the faith. What good IS all of that "study", then? What good does it do for you as far as how you understand God, and how to conduct yourself as a person? It doesn't make you any better of a person. Getting hung up on that sort of thing may even end up being degrading to the soul because of the failure to nourish more important things like compassion, empathy, and so on. It's just obsessive legalism, this time wearing a "Christian" mask.

In my views, anyway, I don't think it accomplishes anything to mess with this "coding" stuff...you just end up missing the boat and repeating past mistakes.

So, it's basically a parlour trick God or whoever has worked in? It should be possible to set up a computer to find grammatical sequences of actual names and words in the Torah. Just hook it up and let it go. You can look for fractal patterns while you're at it. If the predictions produced are accurate to frequency greater than chance could produce, there might be a case, but it seems no-one's compiled such a complete list, they've just Googled it for what they want to find.
probably why this so called code has no predictive value. you just play a complicated version of seek-a-word with the text until you find an "answer". i like the parlor trick of god analogy, this whole thing does reduce the divine to the level of video game writers who put in the little secret in jokes into their code.

The whole notion of this secret code is total bunk. I watched a show on the History Channel last night, and a scientist did the same thing with Moby Dick. Basically, use a text large enough, and this system will work.

The whole notion of this secret code is total bunk. I watched a show on the History Channel last night, and a scientist did the same thing with Moby Dick. Basically, use a text large enough, and this system will work.

Exactly... you set your mind to finding certain words... sooner or later you are going to find them.

You just want to find ANY words you recognise, by basically making anagrams of the text? Well, the chances aren't going to be against you, are they?

I love it when they have those "word search" boxes of text in the book where they circle certain terms, especially when they have the same combination happens more than once.

They just happen to omit, and you have to search in the endnotes (Probably taken Al Fraken's advice on "How to lie with endnotes.") to find they they vary the length of the rows each time they search through the text. Then they might try on some numerology or whatever works to find their phrases or words.

Like previous posters pointed out, this is easily reproducible with other large texts and obviously to be shoved into the pile of bullshit with psychics, pagans who think they can cast spells, faith healers, prophets, alien abuctees, people who take ghostbusters too seriously, exorcists, astrology and horroscopes, as well as some things I've probably neglected to mention.

I studied all this mess in Yeshiva and at Hebrew University .... there is no veracity to it.

I've seen a (fictional) movie called The Bible Code. Did anyone see it too?

And what if there are predictions in it? They'll be unavoidable, like in Shakespeares Hamlet. By trying not to fulfill a prophecy you do the wrong thing and you yourself make it come true.

the part where it takes a computer to find the code seems rather suspicious to me too. so god put in predictions tht we can only find well after they occur because we didnt have the right equipment at the time?

not that i care or know what the argument is about, i will explain the advent of computers to you

when people invented computers, calculations that would take lifetimes or ultimately forever coule be truncated to a single lifetime or half. and as computers have progressed and gotten faster the calculations have been able to be carried out much faster and more complicated calculations can be done by computers. what you are typing on alone could have carried out the moon mission and then some

The bible code is real, what most people dont know is the stuff in moby dick and war and peace are statistically insignificant.

and because they are insignificant they are coincidence. However many of the bible codes are highly significant.

What I find amazing about the codes is the year 2012.

Here is the code for the year 2012

2012 Bible Code (http://exodus2006.com/2012code.htm)

Now, if we just had that, and just that. It probably would've been casted aside. However several other people has commented on the year 2012. Including the Myans, Nostradamus, and I think scienctist has discovered a comet that is suspose to pass by here in the year 2012. So given all of this, its kinda hard to ignore the codes.

I will say this as concisely as I possibly can (quite a feat for me as anyone who knows me will tell you).

It's complete and utter bullshit.

Want to know why? Well I'll tell you. Create a matrix in which the colums represent the distance between each letter based on the spacing code system and the rows represent each letter of the Torah so each cell represents the word starting on a given letter (row) and with a given spacing (column). So now let's just look at 2 letter words to start, even though there aren't that many. There are roughly 600,000 letters in the Torah, so 600,000 rows and only 599,999 rows since the second letter can be any distance from the first letter. That results in 359,999,400,000 or roughly 360 billion possible 2 letter words using the spacing method. Now 3 letter words, 600,000 rows multiplied by roughly 300,000 columbs since the farthest the first and second letters can be is half the distance through the Torah since there needs to be enough space left for the third letter. Now 4 letter words renders 600,000 multiplied by 200,000 using the same logic as about and 5 letter words (the length of many of the words supposedly found using the "Bible Code") render 600,000 multiplied by 150,000 or 90,000,000,000 or 90 billion possible words. Now if anyone wonders how they managed to find the 5 letter words they did then they need only take a look at the math and wonder how anyone could be taken in by this bunk theory.

EDIT: I made a bit of an error in there, I'm going to leave it because I'm lazy, but the real number of 5 letter words is closer to 45 billion. I wonder if anyone will catch the error.

The bible code is real, what most people dont know is the stuff in moby dick and war and peace are statistically insignificant. and because they are insignificant they are coincidence. However many of the bible codes are highly significant.

I really hope you come back and read and understand the math I posted above, because you'll see that the findings of the Bible Code are far from statistically significant.

The bible code is real, what most people dont know is the stuff in moby dick and war and peace are statistically insignificant.

How so? What makes them statistically insignificant?

there is no code

The "bible code" is a hodgepodge of ludicrous parlor-trickery, pseudo-science, incompetence, and outright fraud.


Any honest and competency cryptographer can explain precisely what is wrong with it, as could a layman (different matrices are used on different blocks of text *until* a 'code' is found).


No reputable crpytographer puts any stock in it.
And there is *not* an evil world conspiracy to 'supress the truth' - that is palpably idiotic (and also non-falsifiable).

The "bible code" is a hodgepodge of ludicrous parlor-trickery, pseudo-science, incompetence, and outright fraud.


Any honest and competency cryptographer can explain precisely what is wrong with it, as could a layman (different matrices are used on different blocks of text *until* a 'code' is found).


No reputable crpytographer puts any stock in it.
And there is *not* an evil world conspiracy to 'supress the truth' - that is palpably idiotic (and also non-falsifiable).

100% ACK!

First the bible codes dont just occur in the torah.

Second go to this website, this is about comparing the bible codes to the hanukah clusters.

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/10

Sure some things in drosnins book are not statistically significant but others are.

This stuff was mentioned on John Saffran vs God last night.
Saffran went to some guy who had the necessary computer program and found a prophecy about the world trade center attacks in Vanilla Ice lyrics.
He then found a prophecy about the end of Vanilla Ice's career in some American Senate document.

Basically, you pick any document, and any prophecy you want, hit the button and up it comes.

How so? What makes them statistically insignificant?
text contains random patterns, which can be interpreted as words or prophecies. I might calculate probabilities if you want a statistical proof. Onjly thing you need to provide is the approximate length of the torah as well as the number of characters in the hebrew alphabet.

text contains random patterns, which can be interpreted as words or prophecies. I might calculate probabilities if you want a statistical proof. Onjly thing you need to provide is the approximate length of the torah as well as the number of characters in the hebrew alphabet.

Thanks, but that's not what I was asking about.


The bible code is real, what most people dont know is the stuff in moby dick and war and peace are statistically insignificant. and because they are insignificant they are coincidence. However many of the bible codes are highly significant.

To which I responded:

How so? What makes them statistically insignificant?

The "them" referring to the "stuff" in Moby Dick and War and Peace. My question was why Downtroddenness was maintaining that the "codes" found in Moby Dick and War and Peace are allegedly insignificant, but those in the Bible aren't.

you can make the same code from any book in the world.....ergo no code

Seriously people, I would put most trust in a magic 8 ball then any thing any bible has to say.. :cool:

The way the code is presented is that the predictions aren't set in stone and that there is always a way to avoid the outcome of that prediction. I find that part interesting.

I also happen to agree with this statement. Personally, even as a Catholic, I'm not convinced by the Bible Code. I think it's nifty and cool, and I'm all for learning from hidden messages. But the skeptics seem to be right - you really can find any answer you want provided the book's long enough.

From my own theological research, it seems to me that prophecy is real, but nothing is ever set in stone. For example, Mother Mary appeared to several holy men and women throughout the centuries. During WWI, she appeared to a women named Fantima (possible spelling error). She provided this woman with a unique method of prayer involving the rosary. She said that if enough people prayed in this way, they would:
1. End WWI before its time
2. Prevent another Great War
3. Save an unspecified amount of souls from hell

I don't know if people believe WWI ended before its time, but everyone pretty much agrees that WWII was the war Mary was referring to. Hence, not enough people belived her message and acted. The future is always uncertain, and prayer isn't always the solution.

As an aside, the third point is being debated as well. The literal nature of hell is being reconsidered, so Mary may have been referring to purgatory instead. But nothing's been concluded to my knowledge.

Speaking of codes, do any Bible skeptics have an answer for the following:

The Heptadic Structure

The recurrence of the number seven-or an exact multiple of seven- is found throughout the Bible and is widely recognized. The Sabbath on the seventh day, the seven years of plenty, and the seven years of famine in Egypt, the seven priests and seven trumpets marching around Jericho, The Sabbath year of the Land are well-known examples.

Also, Solomon's building the Temple for seven years, Naaman's washing in the river seven times, and the seven churches, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls, seven stars, and so on in the Book of Revelation, all show the consistent use of the number seven.

But it turns out to be much more below the surface. Ivan Panin noted the amazing numerical properties of the Biblical text - both the Greek of the New Testament and the Hebrew of the Old Testament.. These are not only intriguing to discover they also demonstrate an intricacy of design which testifies to a supernatural origin!

If we look at the first 17 verses of the New Testament (The Gospel of Matthew) which deals with a single principal subject: the genealogy of Jesus Christ, It contains 72 Greek vocabulary words in these initial 17 versus(*note;The verse divisions are man's allocation for convenience, added in the thirteenth-century A.D.). We find the following Heptadic (7) structure throughout these original Greek versus.
#1. The number of words which are nouns is exactly 56, or 7 x 8.
#2. The Greek word "the" occurs most frequently in the passage: exactly 56 times, or 7 x 8.
#3. Also, the number of different forms in which the article "the" occurs is exactly 7.
#4. There are two main sections in the passage: verse 1-11 and 12-17. In the first main section, the number of Greek vocabulary words used is 49, or 7 x 7.
#5. Of these 49 words, The number of those beginning with a vowel is 28, or 7 x 4.
#6. The number of words beginning with a consonant is 21, or 7 x 3.
#7. The total number of letters in these 49 words is exactly 266, or 7 x 38-exactly.
#8. The numbers of vowels among these 266 letters is 140, or 7 x 20.
#9. The number of consonants is 126, or 7 x 18-exactly.
#10. Of these 49 words, the number of words which occur more than once is 35, or 7 x 5.
#11. The number of words occurring only once is 14, or 7 x2.
#12. The number of words which occur in only one form is exactly 42, or 7 x 6.
#13. The number of words appearing in more than one form is also 7.
#14. The number of 49 Greek vocabulary words which are nouns is 42, or 7 x 6.
#15. The number of words which are not nouns is 7.
#16. Of the nouns, 35 are proper names, or 7 x 5.
#17. These 35 nouns are used 63 times, or 7 x 9.
#18. The number of male names is 28, or 7 x 4.
#19. These male names occur 56 times or 7 x 8.
#20. The number which are not male names is 7.
#21. Three women are mentioned-Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, or 7 x 2.
#22. The number of compound nouns is 7.
#23. The number of Greek letters in these 7 nouns is 49, or 7 x 7.
#24. Only one city is named in this passage, Babylon, which in Greek contains exactly 7 letters.
And on and on it goes.

Just to understand how unique these properties are try to design a genealogy-even from fiction that meets the following criteria:
1) The Number of words must be divisible by 7 evenly (In each of these constraints, it is assumed that the divisions are without remainders.)
2)The number of letters must also be divisible by 7.
3)The number of vowels and the number of consonants must be divisible by 7.
4)The number of words that begin with a vowel must be divisible by 7.
5)The number of words that begin with a consonant must be divisible by 7.
6)The number of words that occur more than once must be divisible by 7.
7)The number of words that occur in more than one form must be divisible by 7.
8)The number of words that occur in only one form shall be divisible by 7.
9)The number of nouns shall be divisible by 7.
10)Only 7 words shall not be nouns.
11)The number of names in the genealogy shall be divisible by 7.
12)Only 7 other kinds of nouns are permitted.
13)The number of male names shall be divisible by 7.
14)The number of generations shall be 21, also divisible by 7.

There are even more features in the numerical structure of the words themselves. As you may know, both the Hebrew and Greek use the letters of the alphabet for numerical values. Therefore, any specific word in either Hebrew or Greek- has a numerical value of its own by adding up the values of the letters in that particular word. The study of the numerical values of words is called gametria.

The 72 vocabulary words add up to a gametrical value of 42,364, or 7 x 6,052.
The 72 words appear in 90 forms-some appear in more than one form. The numeric value of the 90 forms is 54,075, or 7 x 7,725. Exactly.

It becomes immediately obvious that hidden below the surface are aspects of design that cannot be accidental or just coincidence.

Other Implications

There are words in the passage just described that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18). How was this organized?

Even if matthew contrived this characteristic into his Gospel, how could he have known that these specific words-whose sole characteristic is that they are found nowhere else in the New Testament-were not going to be used by the other writers? Unless we assume the absurd hypothesis that he had an agreement with them, he must have had the rest of the New Testament before him when he wrote his book. The Gospel of Matthew, then, must have been written last

It so happens the Gospel of Mark exhibits the same phenomenon. It can be demonstrated that it would have had to be written "last." The same phenomenon is found in Luke, John, Peter, Jude, and Paul. Each would have had to write after the other in order to contrive the vocabulary frequencies! You can demonstrate that each of the New Testament books had to have been "written last."

There is no human explanation for this incredible and precise structure. It has all been supernaturally designed. We simply gasp, sit back, and behold the skillful handiwork of the God who keeps his promises.

By the way, the crucifixion of Jesus took place at Golgotha, elevation = 777 meters above sea level. What a coincidence.

Ive seen on another site alot more of this, this was not even close to half,

the seven division is throughout the whole Bible in it.

How could men, two thousand and more years ago plan this?

And is there any proof they did?

Seriously people, I would put most trust in a magic 8 ball then any thing any bible has to say.. :cool:

lol how ironic you should say that, since the number of man is 8, where as

Gods is 7, you put more trust in the world than in God.

just because the number occurs lots doesn't make it divine, If humans can see the pattern they can also create the pattern.

Not to mention the fact that it could still be random chance. I mean, how many times does the number seven NOT occur? It doesn't mean squat that a computer can find 50 000 (or whatever) occurences of the number seven, because it can probably find 40 000 occurences of the number 8 as well, and a similar quantity of all the other numbers.

Note I said less for the other numbers because clearly the authors would have included seven a lot, because it is the divine number of perfection.


Regarding the bible code in general, I believe the same argument stands.

Not to mention that thing soemeone else said earlier about it would work for any other book as well.

So to summarise:
haha! you guys are all gullible

=EvilGnomes]just because the number occurs lots doesn't make it divine, If humans can see the pattern they can also create the pattern.

We can also see the sky and the ocean, we didnt create that either.

No way this was man made.

Its just too improbable

Did you even read it?


Not to mention the fact that it could still be random chance. I mean, how many times does the number seven NOT occur? It doesn't mean squat that a computer can find 50 000 (or whatever) occurences of the number seven, because it can probably find 40 000 occurences of the number 8 as well, and a similar quantity of all the other numbers.

Well try and find one that comes up with as much combinations or divisions of

8 in the Bible, or any other number then.

Note I said less for the other numbers because clearly the authors would have included seven a lot, because it is the divine number of perfection.

The only author in this was God.

Regarding the bible code in general, I believe the same argument stands.

Yes a pigheaded one, heres some proof- but no its wrong because God

doesnt exist, yeah... great arguement.

Not to mention that thing soemeone else said earlier about it would work for any other book as well.

No it wouldnt actually, really.


So to summarise:
haha! you guys are all gullible

There are none so blind as those, who refuse to see. :rolleyes:

In fact, there is clear evidence of changes in the Torah... primary example being the name of 'god'.

The earliest 'Torah' documents give the name YHWH, unaccented.

(This is because it was considered acceptable, at that point, for anyone to say the name YHWH)

Later "Torah' documents 'alter' the word, by adding sound 'points' for the word Adonay, to influence the pronunciation - since, at this late time, it was considered a blasphemy to say the name aloud.

Surely, if the text were inspired by 'god', and incapable of error, this alteration could not have occured to the text.

This would also render arguments of the 'truth' of the bible-code baseless, since the 'word of god' (even if it WAS divine in inspiration) has been edited by man.

I think you have your facts mixed up. The Torah that you see printed in book form has had vowels in it for a long time. The Torah in the temple, however, in scroll form, still contains no vowels, and is an exactly the same as the Torah 4000 years ago. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proves that they're at least 2000 years old, the one that we have now.

An interesting point that helps back it up is that the New Testament (written by man) has no such code, while the 5 books of Moses,which are supposedly written by the Lord, are encoded

actually the first five books are acredited to Moses

The Heptadic Structure



There are seven letters in my last name!
There are seven digits in my telephone number!
I drank seven shots of whiskey last night!
There are seven left-over chicken wings in my fridge!
I wrote my first piece of music in seventh grade!
There are seven people in my immediate family!
There are seven used batteries in my desk drawer!
I drive seven miles to get to my favorite restaurant!
My favorite meal at that resaurant costs seven dollars!
If I lost three toes, I'd have seven!
There are seven Dr Peppers in my fridge!

My god, man! I must be Jesus!

*rolls eyes so hard his head falls off*

I find it fascinating that the "Bible Code," the ancient Mayan calendar, and the Chinese Y Ching all seem to "run out" in 2012. Makes you wonder, doesn't it!

I find it fascinating that the "Bible Code," the ancient Mayan calendar, and the Chinese Y Ching all seem to "run out" in 2012. Makes you wonder, doesn't it!

Not really. I expected more out of Y2K and was dissappointed. I don't think 2012 will be any more entertaining ...

Speaking of codes, do any Bible skeptics have an answer for the following:

The Heptadic Structure



Ive seen on another site alot more of this, this was not even close to half,

the seven division is throughout the whole Bible in it.

How could men, two thousand and more years ago plan this?

And is there any proof they did?

The problem here, Terminalia, is that you are a) obviously unfamiliar with the way Hebrew 'works' and b) unfamiliar with that whole 'region' as recorded 2000 years ago.

The reason I say unfamiliar with the region is that the Mesopotamian neighbourhood is basically the birthplace of most of our complex math of today, dating back 3000 years. The Babylonians constructed complex mathematical tables to facilitate more rapid and accurate calculation, used multiple 'bases', etc.

The reason I say unfamiliar with how Hebrew 'works' is that Hebrew is structured in a fairly mathematical way. Keruvalia could doubtless give you numerous examples of what I mean. I'm not going to pollute the waters by claiming to remember, off-hand, the numerical signifiers, but I recall hearing that "Child" is the 'mathematical' construct of "Mother" and "Father", in Hebrew... a whole language engineered on mathematical basis, it is hardly unlikely that such patterning WOULDN'T creep into the macrocosm of text.

Last point... have you seen how they had to corrupt the Geneology of Jesus, to make it fit that structure? Notice that the two gospel accounts of Geneology don't match?

I think you have your facts mixed up. The Torah that you see printed in book form has had vowels in it for a long time. The Torah in the temple, however, in scroll form, still contains no vowels, and is an exactly the same as the Torah 4000 years ago. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls proves that they're at least 2000 years old, the one that we have now.

Two points... you'll notice that in my post I referred to 'Torah' texts, rather than Torah... showing that I was referring to texts including Torah, or based on Torah... such as Old Testament texts. Thus, my point is still valid.... (also of course, there is a limit on how long 'printed' Torah texts can have existed unchanged... since printing is a fairly new technology).

Second Point... not to question the truth behind claims of ancient evidence for Torah... the Dead Sea Scrolls support the fact that some Torah texts are maybe 2000 years old... that doesn't PROVE that they are 4000 years old.

Now, if you can show me an actual Torah scripture that can be proved to be 4000 years old... maybe I'll place more faith in your claims of perfect accuracy. (Not that I doubt the accuracy now... it just isn't PROVED).

There are seven letters in my last name!
There are seven digits in my telephone number!
I drank seven shots of whiskey last night!
There are seven left-over chicken wings in my fridge!
I wrote my first piece of music in seventh grade!
There are seven people in my immediate family!
There are seven used batteries in my desk drawer!
I drive seven miles to get to my favorite restaurant!
My favorite meal at that resaurant costs seven dollars!
If I lost three toes, I'd have seven!
There are seven Dr Peppers in my fridge!

My god, man! I must be Jesus!

*rolls eyes so hard his head falls off*

lol and seven braincells. ;)

I find it fascinating that the "Bible Code," the ancient Mayan calendar, and the Chinese Y Ching all seem to "run out" in 2012. Makes you wonder, doesn't it!

Its the end of Tribulation.

lol and seven braincells. ;)

Actually, there's an 8th ... but he's been sick. :p

Actually, there's an 8th ... but he's been sick. :p

lol

Jeremiah 23:28 - The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.

Sorry IDF, but for some reason i don't buy into the whole 'future has been pre-ordained' type stuff