NationStates Jolt Archive

I have a question on the authority of the Pope.

Right before the US invasion of Iraq, the Pope stated that he opposed war with Iraq. I assume since that came from the Pope, that is the official position of the church. I know someone who is a devout Catholic, but is in favour of the war. How much does that put him at odds with the church, if at all?

Please, I'm not looking for any flaming. This is an honest question I am simply curious about.

Well, the thing with the official positions of the Catholic Church is always the same: they always propagate a high moral standard, but no-one in the Vatican is so stupid as to expect that everybody would follow those positions in the literal meaning and in every aspect. It has always been the (successful) practice of the Vatican to demand something a little "over the top" so that the resultung behavior of the followers would be somewhere in the half-way range. Official Catholic positions are always stricter than the demand for realization.

Church is now in a position where not all followers will follow every Pope's position one whatever. The Churches powers has decreased to the extend that they cannot kick anyone out of the church anymore, because they need every believer.

Another question: Why would a good Christian want any war? Is the Church not about forgiving and loving your neighbours?

no-one in the Vatican is so stupid as to expect that everybody would follow those positions in the literal meaning and in every aspect.
wouldnt count on that were i you

I work with Catholics, and they seem to be indifferent to the whole issue. I will have ask Father Arthor about his opinions.

Church and government are seperated. What the pope states has no bering on the actions of the government or a person's support of the government or lack of support for it.

Church and government are seperated. What the pope states has no bering on the actions of the government or a person's support of the government or lack of support for it.
especially not the CATHOLIC church on a BAPTIST administration

Actually, the Catholic Church can kick out anybody they want to. Excommunication is still a legitimate practice, though most Americans and Western Europeans don't fear it.

As far as the morality of war goes, yes, violence is wrong. However, there are wars which are just. St. Augustine's "just war principle" must be applied to each particular situation. In a nut shell, if declaring war will cause greater evil, then the war is immoral. For example, in the case of World War II, far greater evil would have occurred if the Allies had not made war upon the Axis powers. Therefore it was a just war.

Pope John Paul II applied the jwp to the war in Iraq and evaluated it as an unjust war. Personally, I happen to disagree with him but that's how he came to his conclusion.

Actually, the Catholic Church can kick out anybody they want to. Excommunication is still a legitimate practice, though most Americans and Western Europeans don't fear it.

As far as the morality of war goes, yes, violence is wrong. However, there are wars which are just. St. Augustine's "just war principle" must be applied to each particular situation. In a nut shell, if declaring war will cause greater evil, then the war is immoral. For example, in the case of World War II, far greater evil would have occurred if the Allies had not made war upon the Axis powers. Therefore it was a just war.

Pope John Paul II applied the jwp to the war in Iraq and evaluated it as an unjust war. Personally, I happen to disagree with him but that's how he came to his conclusion.Fighting an enemy who has attacked you is completely different from just attacking a country only because you have the means to. Comparing the war against Germany in WW2 to the Iraq invasion by the US is complete insolence.

Personal judgememnts of the person occupying the position of Pope do not equate with ex-cathedra judgements of the divine through the Pope. Nor does being at variance with a "position" of the church mean much to a Catholic, just about all of them disagree with at least some "positions" of the Church. A position is just that, it is not dogma, it is not doctrine, it rarely even rises to the level of church teaching, one can disagree with these types of Church positions (which this is probably not, it is probably only the Pope's position) all one wants to, and no problem. Papal authority (through the Church) is not involved, instead the man who is the Pope said effectively "I am a hopefully wise man with much knowledge of the world and have looked at this war and judged it to be wrong".

Church and government are seperated. What the pope states has no bering on the actions of the government or a person's support of the government or lack of support for it.

While technically church and government are separate, this belief isn't consistent among religious people, at least in the US.

So, what I'm hearing is that the Pope isn't the ultimate authority for Catholics?

Personal judgememnts of the person occupying the position of Pope do not equate with ex-cathedra judgements of the divine through the Pope. Nor does being at variance with a "position" of the church mean much to a Catholic, just about all of them disagree with at least some "positions" of the Church. A position is just that, it is not dogma, it is not doctrine, it rarely even rises to the level of church teaching, one can disagree with these types of Church positions (which this is probably not, it is probably only the Pope's position) all one wants to, and no problem. Papal authority (through the Church) is not involved, instead the man who is the Pope said effectively "I am a hopefully wise man with much knowledge of the world and have looked at this war and judged it to be wrong".

Thank you Squi. This makes it much clearer.

Personal judgememnts of the person occupying the position of Pope do not equate with ex-cathedra judgements of the divine through the Pope. Nor does being at variance with a "position" of the church mean much to a Catholic, just about all of them disagree with at least some "positions" of the Church. A position is just that, it is not dogma, it is not doctrine, it rarely even rises to the level of church teaching, one can disagree with these types of Church positions (which this is probably not, it is probably only the Pope's position) all one wants to, and no problem. Papal authority (through the Church) is not involved, instead the man who is the Pope said effectively "I am a hopefully wise man with much knowledge of the world and have looked at this war and judged it to be wrong".

Yeah, what s/he said. But I would add that disagreeing with and acting against ex cathedra infallible statements of the Pope isn't that uncommon among catholics these days. I know of a lot of catholics who don't hold with or follow catholic teaching on stuff like abortion, contraception, homosexuality yada yada, and yet they consider themselves good catholics because the Pope's just a guy, y'know?

Personally, I consider this hypocrisy/heresy (not that I care, I'm not catholic), just that when someone says they're playing a game, I expect them to play by the rules, and if they don't like/follow the rules, then I'd say they aren't playing the game.

Fighting an enemy who has attacked you is completely different from just attacking a country only because you have the means to. Comparing the war against Germany in WW2 to the Iraq invasion by the US is complete insolence.


Thinking that the Iraq War was started just "because", is even greater insolence.


There are more requirements to a "just" war, then merely retaliating to an attack.

For example, Genocide.

especially not the CATHOLIC church on a BAPTIST administration

Isn't Bush a Methodist???

Isn't Bush a Methodist???Yes.

So if Bush is a Methodist, and Cheney is a Methodist...how is this a Baptist Administration?