NationStates Jolt Archive

I wish to God I was making this up. Sorry. (http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040912/sticker.shtml)

Lynne Gobbell of Moulton, Alabama, was told by her boss that she had to remove her Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker from her car or she would lose her job.

Gobbell gave this account:

"We were going back to work from break, and my manager told me that Phil said to remove the sticker off my car or I was fired," she said. "I told him that Phil couldn't tell me who to vote for. He said, 'Go tell him.' "

She went to Gaddis' office, knocked on the door and entered on his orders.

"Phil and another man who works there were there," she said. "I asked him if he said to remove the sticker and he said, 'Yes, I did.' I told him he couldn't tell me who to vote for. When I told him that, he told me, 'I own this place.' I told him he still couldn't tell me who to vote for."

Gobbell said Gaddis told her to "get out of here."

"I asked him if I was fired and he told me he was thinking about it," she said. "I said, 'Well, am I fired?' He hollered and said, 'Get out of here and shut the door.' "

She said her manager was standing in another room and she asked him if that meant for her to go back to work or go home. The manager told her to go back to work, but he came back a few minutes later and said, " 'I reckon you're fired. You could either work for him or John Kerry,' " Gobbell said.
"I took off my gloves and threw them in the garbage and left," Gobbell said.

But wait--it gets worse.

Seems the owner, Phil Gaddis, had been placing this letter in his employees' paycheck each month.
"Just so you will know, because of the Bush tax (cut):
I was able to buy the new Hammer Mill
I was able to finance our receivables
I was able to get the new CAT skid steer
I was able to get the wire cutter
I was able to give you a job"
It further says:
"You got the benefit of the Bush tax cut. Everyone did."

So it's okay for the owner to push his politics on his employees, but not for them to express themselves on their private property? God, I wish Alabama were anything remotely resembling a swing state.

And before any Bush supporters start defending this mouth-breather, imagine the stink you'd be raising if you were given the choice between your Bush/Cheney bumpersticker or your job. Then try to defend it.

I wish to God I was making this up. Sorry. (http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040912/sticker.shtml)

Lynne Gobbell of Moulton, Alabama, was told by her boss that she had to remove her Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker from her car or she would lose her job.



But wait--it gets worse.

Seems the owner, Phil Gaddis, had been placing this letter in his employees' paycheck each month.


So it's okay for the owner to push his politics on his employees, but not for them to express themselves on their private property? God, I wish Alabama were anything remotely resembling a swing state.

And before any Bush supporters start defending this mouth-breather, imagine the stink you'd be raising if you were given the choice between your Bush/Cheney bumpersticker or your job. Then try to defend it.
time to write letters to the editor, my god im so tired of all the ignorant anti-kerry bullshit i could snap some ignorant pro-bush dumbfuck's neck

That was wrong.....pure and simple.

That was wrong.....pure and simple.Thanks. I know we're often on opposite sides, but this is one of those instances that just reeks all the way around.

Given the efforts of the neoconservatives to inculcate the "lockstep" mentality among their supporters, it is no wonder that such an incident would occur. I can only hope she hires a good employment discrimination attorney and sues the hell out of her former employer.

i just finished a letter to the editor and i hope to god it gets printed

So, is she going to sue or what now?

Funny story. :D

I wish to God I was making this up. Sorry. (http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040912/sticker.shtml)

Lynne Gobbell of Moulton, Alabama, was told by her boss that she had to remove her Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker from her car or she would lose her job.



But wait--it gets worse.

Seems the owner, Phil Gaddis, had been placing this letter in his employees' paycheck each month.


So it's okay for the owner to push his politics on his employees, but not for them to express themselves on their private property? God, I wish Alabama were anything remotely resembling a swing state.

And before any Bush supporters start defending this mouth-breather, imagine the stink you'd be raising if you were given the choice between your Bush/Cheney bumpersticker or your job. Then try to defend it.
This is the modern day US of A. What do you expect? And it's spreading in other countries... sadly.

Funny story. :D
no, its not

So, is she going to sue or what now?
I don't know. The article says that she had an appointment with an employment lawyer and had cancelled it, and that she had applied for unemployment benefits.

Problem is, Alabama, like all fifty states, is what's called an "at will" state, which means that both employer and employee can end a job at will. There doesn't have to be any cause for termination, although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation. Gaddis won't be able to stop her from collecting unemployment benefits, and if she sues and it makes its way to a jury, she'd likely find a sympathetic ear, but in the long run I don't know fro certain that she has a case. I need to point out that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just hypothesizing here.

It's official: Bush supporters are imbred rednecks. :rolleyes:

no, its not
Yes, it is. :D

I don't know. The article says that she had an appointment with an employment lawyer and had cancelled it, and that she had applied for unemployment benefits.

Problem is, Alabama, like all fifty states, is what's called an "at will" state, which means that both employer and employee can end a job at will. There doesn't have to be any cause for termination, although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation. Gaddis won't be able to stop her from collecting unemployment benefits, and if she sues and it makes its way to a jury, she'd likely find a sympathetic ear, but in the long run I don't know fro certain that she has a case. I need to point out that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just hypothesizing here.

Thats true....an "at will" job can be terminated without reason by the employer. They do not need a reason. He could have fired her because he did not like the color of her hair.

Yes, it is. :D
you know where you should die? yeah lets do that

you know where you should die? yeah lets do that
:D You first.

I don't know. The article says that she had an appointment with an employment lawyer and had cancelled it, and that she had applied for unemployment benefits.

Problem is, Alabama, like all fifty states, is what's called an "at will" state, which means that both employer and employee can end a job at will. There doesn't have to be any cause for termination, although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation. Gaddis won't be able to stop her from collecting unemployment benefits, and if she sues and it makes its way to a jury, she'd likely find a sympathetic ear, but in the long run I don't know fro certain that she has a case. I need to point out that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just hypothesizing here.

Right, but surely political affiliation is one of those things you can't fire a person for, no?

That indeed is the question. Her employer probably stepped over the line when he told her to get rid of the sticker because it was on her private property, not his, but like I said, I'm no lawyer and I wouldn't want to get into that kind of speculation.

Regardless, it just seems wrong to me. Legal or not, it's just wrong.

Hi, while I'm not a lawyer, I do have some familiarity with human resource legislation, particularly in the Southeastern United States. I may be wrong, but I'd like to try and give this a shot.

Political affiliation is not covered under Title Seven of the Civil Rights Act, which is the section you get employment discrimination laws from. Some states have other local laws determining what you can hire and fire over (DC does not allow firing over political affiliation), but Alabama basically has no other laws. It is one of three states (MS, LA, and AL) that are pretty much governed strictly by the federal law. So, regardless of whether you like it, which even as a Bush supporter I don't because I think it should be all-or-nothing when it comes to politics in the workplace, that was legal in Alabama, and also in any other state that does not have that in their state law...which I think is probably more states than not. (Although Alabama is odd for not having any separate employment law, it comes in varying degrees. DC is unusual for having a LOT of it.)

So basically, unless it would violate a union contract, which I didn't see mentioned, I do not believe this was illegal.

By the way, the death threats, name-calling, and other infantile behavior are not helping Kerry supporters to come off any better than you portray Bush supporters to be.

I'm really glad I live in Australia where I get 2 weeks notice (minimum) on termination of employment. Oh yes, I do have a really good boss too.

I'm really glad I live in Australia where I get 2 weeks notice (minimum) on termination of employment. Oh yes, I do have a really good boss too.

Mate where in Australia do you live?

I do not intend to vote for Kerry. I think Bush has done well enough.

BUT NO ONE TELLS ME OR YOU WHO TO VOTE FOR!

I would be sueing the hell out of my boss for this.

Mate where in Australia do you live?

Darwin! No crocs in the backyard ...

It's official: Bush supporters are imbred rednecks. :rolleyes:

No we are not. I support Bush until someone better comes along, and Kerry just isn't.

When you get right down to it both are politicians, I.E. They can't get a real job. Give either one one shift at my work, and I know they would be running home crying to mommy.

It's official: Bush supporters are imbred rednecks. :rolleyes: That is wrong. We are not inbred most of us are not rednecks. In fact I am of native american decent. Even if this was ment in jest not funny. :upyours:

you lose your job.

Hail Fuhrer Bush!

</sarcasm>

:rolleyes: :mad:

While it is true that most states (Alabama included) are "at will" employment states, their are statutory and case law exceptions to the general authorization to fire for any reason.

In Kentucky (where I practice law,) you cannot fire an at-will employee for exercising a statutorily-protected right. The usual example of this are at-will employees injured on the job who are fired in response to filing a workers compensation claim. Excercising one's constitutional right to free political speech is among those rights protected by both federal and state law. If Alabama's employment rights are similar to those of Kentucky, her former employer has a serious legal problem on his hands.

It's official: Bush supporters are imbred rednecks. :rolleyes:
YOur imbred joke isn't accurate, though rednecks are likely. West Virginia is the one with imbreds :)

That's amazing that you can be fired for your political affiliation. Remind me never to step foot in Alabama.

No we are not. I support Bush until someone better comes along, and Kerry just isn't.

When you get right down to it both are politicians, I.E. They can't get a real job. Give either one one shift at my work, and I know they would be running home crying to mommy.
What on earth can you possibly consider Bush to be doing better than Kerry at?

What on earth can you possibly consider Bush to be doing better than Kerry at?
Cutting taxes
Getting C's in school, Kerry was too good to get a C.
Better at telling Terrorist to "Bring it on"

South Park summed it up:

Mr. Garrison: "Now Damien, where are you from?"
Damien: "The seventh layer of hell."
Mr. Garrison: "That's nice. My mother was also born in Alabama."

:)

wow, a man in alabama doesn't like democrats? i never would have guessed. what are you gonna try and tell us next, that he doesn't like black people? or gays?

I have no bumperstickers on my car. But they shouldn't be allowed to have it on at work because it might cause them to lose business. I think employers should be allowed to fire any one over any reason they want.

I have no bumperstickers on my car. But they shouldn't be allowed to have it on at work because it might cause them to lose business. I think employers should be allowed to fire any one over any reason they want.


youre kidding right??

I have no bumperstickers on my car. But they shouldn't be allowed to have it on at work because it might cause them to lose business. I think employers should be allowed to fire any one over any reason they want.

Totalitarianism, ho!

I agree that it's wrong, but unfortunately, I think the employer has a bit of protection since he can make the argument that it's his private property and free speech does not extend to private property.

It's why someone can be punished for not taking off an anti-Bush t-shirt in a mall. The courts won't see it as a freedom of speech issue.

I have no bumperstickers on my car. But they shouldn't be allowed to have it on at work because it might cause them to lose business. I think employers should be allowed to fire any one over any reason they want.


YEA, women don't belong on the job and who wants to work with jews or dem coloreds! :rolleyes:

Well I live in VA, and here it's 'at will' employment as well. But I know here if you get fired without proper reason you're allowed to collect unemployment and if you're terminated for a reason like being a slacker or a donkey (no political reference intended) you don't get to collect. Now I gotta agree with whoever brought up the point about free speech and I do believe there maybe a case based off of that. But As far as the sticker being on private property by being in the car. That might not be a suitable defense as some companies that have private or reserved parking also reserve the right to search your car and limit what you may or maynot bring on site. So depending on where she was parked might be very important too. Oh as far as the bush/kerry thing, if either side did that it would suck so much ass it wouldn't be funny and that's why this story so not funny. And personnally I don't know about the rest of you americans but I really wish we could get a good canidate to run, not these losers that we've had to choose from for the past 30-40years. Cause I'm tired of trying to choose the lesser of two dumbasses.

although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation.Sexual orientation is only a protected category in something like 12 states. In the others, you can legitimately be fired for being gay.

being fired over a damn bumper sticker and telling the more than obviously biased employer that he cant tell her who to vote for extends beyond freedom of speech problems, this is complete and utter bullshit and i'd have his ass up on charges or sue him

Sexual orientation is only a protected category in something like 12 states. In the others, you can legitimately be fired for being gay.

Intersting choice of word. Got something against gays?

Sexual orientation is only a protected category in something like 12 states. In the others, you can legitimately be fired for being gay.

Not really. If it were challenged into the federal courts, it would be deemed wrong. It's just that only 12 states have specific *state* laws banning discrimination against homosexuals. Federal courts have recognized that the 14th amendment spreads to sexual orientation.

I wish to God I was making this up. Sorry. (http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/040912/sticker.shtml)

Lynne Gobbell of Moulton, Alabama, was told by her boss that she had to remove her Kerry/Edwards bumpersticker from her car or she would lose her job.



But wait--it gets worse.

Seems the owner, Phil Gaddis, had been placing this letter in his employees' paycheck each month.


So it's okay for the owner to push his politics on his employees, but not for them to express themselves on their private property? God, I wish Alabama were anything remotely resembling a swing state.

And before any Bush supporters start defending this mouth-breather, imagine the stink you'd be raising if you were given the choice between your Bush/Cheney bumpersticker or your job. Then try to defend it.

I would be amazed if anyone of either party were to defend the employer's actions in this case. But then again, who'd want to work for an asshole like that?

I agree that it's wrong, but unfortunately, I think the employer has a bit of protection since he can make the argument that it's his private property and free speech does not extend to private property.

It's why someone can be punished for not taking off an anti-Bush t-shirt in a mall. The courts won't see it as a freedom of speech issue.

Um...if free speech doesn't extend to private property, then what EXACTLY does it apply to? :rolleyes:

And personnally I don't know about the rest of you americans but I really wish we could get a good canidate to run, not these losers that we've had to choose from for the past 30-40years. Cause I'm tired of trying to choose the lesser of two dumbasses.

amen. be patient...barack is coming...just give him some multiple of 4 years, depending on how this year's election goes.

Why can't you people see past party lines? Not all of you but many have stated something against conservatives because of this man's actions. He is one person, he does not represent the enrite party, and making stupid generalizing statements is absurd. I don't think the thread was meant to be a political debate, I agree with those who have said it does not matter what party you are affiliated with, this is wrong.

Um...if free speech doesn't extend to private property, then what EXACTLY does it apply to? :rolleyes:


public property. Sad but true, If someone is in my property, under law they can only say what I want them to.

youre kidding right??
Well, you see, to Enodscopia, anything that sounds remotely left-wing - including workers' rights - is wrong and must be stamped out.

Given the efforts of the neoconservatives to inculcate the "lockstep" mentality among their supporters, it is no wonder that such an incident would occur. I can only hope she hires a good employment discrimination attorney and sues the hell out of her former employer.

LOL a new line in the letter on his emplyee's paychecks

- Bush's tax cut payed for this massive wrongful dismissal suit...

LOL a new line in the letter on his emplyee's paychecks

- Bush's tax cut payed for this massive wrongful dismissal suit...
if i could find out the company mail i'd write them a nice 2 page essay on why he is a dumbfuck

if i could find out the company mail i'd write them a nice 2 page essay on why he is a dumbfuck


most of the reasons you give him hell probably take as compliments.

public property. Sad but true, If someone is in my property, under law they can only say what I want them to.

One of the very basic rights democracy gives us all is to vote acording to our own wills. NO ONE can make you vote for someone you don't want to vote for.

It may be his property but he's renting it from Uncle Sam. He has to abide by his rules.

most of the reasons you give him hell probably take as compliments.
if he considers being a ignorant jackass a compliment i suppose so

if he considers being a ignorant jackass a compliment i suppose so


he probably does

The people who have said that free speech rights don't extend to private property are correct--if an employer lets you know that certain restrictions are part of the work environment, you can't go back later and sue saying your constitutional rights were violated. The difference in this case is that the woman was never given a warning, and was apparently never told that the sticker was unwelcome on his property. It sounds like--and this is all based on the one news article--she was fired without being warned that she was violating any sort of company policy. At the very least, the employer will have absolutely no grounds to deny her unemployment benefit claim, and could potentially face a wrongful termination lawsuit, although that will be tough in Alabama.

While I was thinking about this at work today, though, I was struck at how this never could have happened--at least not in this way--if the labor movement were stronger in the US. If this woman belonged to a union, this never would have happened. The employer was able to fire her without cause because she doesn't have a contract. I'd like the working class Republicans around here to remember that--if the tables were turned, and you weren't a member of a union, you'd be just as fucked as this woman was.

Cutting taxes
Getting C's in school, Kerry was too good to get a C.
Better at telling Terrorist to "Bring it on"
Oh, with his preemptive terrorist-proding task force led by none other tan John Ascroft?(I am ashamed that steriotipical British names such as George and John are being used with such horrible last names. e.g. Bush, Ascroft.)

Oh, with his preemptive terrorist-proding task force led by none other tan John Ascroft?(I am ashamed that steriotipical British names such as George and John are being used with such horrible last names. e.g. Bush, Ascroft.)


ok, ok, bad joke coming...

Some people say that the only ( if any) good republican president in the past century was reagan, which has recently passed away, so now, theres no way to get him in office again.

Unless john Ashcroft runs for president... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!! I AM SOOOO FUNNY

The people who have said that free speech rights don't extend to private property are correct--if an employer lets you know that certain restrictions are part of the work environment, you can't go back later and sue saying your constitutional rights were violated. The difference in this case is that the woman was never given a warning, and was apparently never told that the sticker was unwelcome on his property. It sounds like--and this is all based on the one news article--she was fired without being warned that she was violating any sort of company policy. At the very least, the employer will have absolutely no grounds to deny her unemployment benefit claim, and could potentially face a wrongful termination lawsuit, although that will be tough in Alabama.


I would only count this if it voilated some dress or conduct code. Obviously it didn't. I very much doubt a "Bush Country" policy was officially in place and even if there was it's discriminatory. That would be like hiring someone over the phone thinking they are white and firing them when they find out they are black.

The case just stinks.

What's next? Requiring someone to register Republican in order to gain employment? Only hire people who circled "Republican" on their application?

A person's political choices should not have any effect on suitability for employment. Plain and simple.


While I was thinking about this at work today, though, I was struck at how this never could have happened--at least not in this way--if the labor movement were stronger in the US. If this woman belonged to a union, this never would have happened. The employer was able to fire her without cause because she doesn't have a contract. I'd like the working class Republicans around here to remember that--if the tables were turned, and you weren't a member of a union, you'd be just as fucked as this woman was.

True. What's happening to workers in America is a sin.

I'm a republican and I don't like what this guy did. She should sue or try too anyway.

Maybe no one will do business with this guy anymore but then if he goes out of business then the people who are under him are out of work too.

But alas, I do think that she should sue her former employer.

I started a thread over at the Daily Kos on this right about the time I started this one, and when I was reviewing it a few minutes ago, someone pointed out a historical predecessor to this instance.

Apparently, in 1896, before workers went home for the day, some employers told them that if William Jennings Bryan won the Presidency, then the factory would close its doors the next day. I don't know the historical basis for this story, or even if there is one, but the moral is the same--if employers are allowed to pressure employees in this manner, then what's next? Should we just relatch the chains around our necks and repeal the 14th Amendment?

Bwahahahaha...

I'm all for it. I think she should have removed the flier to keep her job!

Conservatives are constantly asked (forced) to remove anything that has a religious context from any public place. (I'm an atheist by the way) Well, this man owns this company, the land, and has an agreement with people he employs. If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason it is his investment supporting them and everyone else involved.

I know the ranting of what a fucking idiot I am, nazi, fag hater and everything else will surely pour out in response to my view, but the reality is...you liberals practice exactly what he did everyday. You have no problems with it when your not the victims of it. Well the best cure for it is to simply have it start affecting you as well.

I look forward to the day when your not allowed to show any sign of your sexuality, heaven forbid we wouldn't have any rainbows around. I look forward to the day when you can't discuss your abortion in public on public lands, lord knows the Boy Scouts can't talk about their faith, for fear of offending liberals.

This is not a crime, this is pure and simple equality. Welcome to America 2004, get used to it.

In Kentucky (where I practice law,) you cannot fire an at-will employee for exercising a statutorily-protected right. The usual example of this are at-will employees injured on the job who are fired in response to filing a workers compensation claim. Excercising one's constitutional right to free political speech is among those rights protected by both federal and state law. If Alabama's employment rights are similar to those of Kentucky, her former employer has a serious legal problem on his hands.

Alabama's employment right's are pretty much the federal ones and that's it. I don't know that there IS a similar statute to Kentucky's. You as a lawyer would be far better qualified to look into it than I am, but I don't think you'll find very much beyond the federal laws like Title Seven.

now im pro-bush, but thats just stupid. i believe she should have the right to vote for whoever she wants. You know not all bush supporters are like that, so before you critcive bush supporters, how bout you just critize the owner who fired her.

Bwahahahaha...

I'm all for it. I think she should have removed the flier to keep her job!

Conservatives are constantly asked (forced) to remove anything that has a religious context from any public place. (I'm an atheist by the way) Well, this man owns this company, the land, and has an agreement with people he employs. If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason it is his investment supporting them and everyone else involved.

I know the ranting of what a fucking idiot I am, nazi, fag hater and everything else will surely pour out in response to my view, but the reality is...you liberals practice exactly what he did everyday. You have no problems with it when your not the victims of it. Well the best cure for it is to simply have it start affecting you as well.

I look forward to the day when your not allowed to show any sign of your sexuality, heaven forbid we wouldn't have any rainbows around. I look forward to the day when you can't discuss your abortion in public on public lands, lord knows the Boy Scouts can't talk about their faith, for fear of offending liberals.

This is not a crime, this is pure and simple equality. Welcome to America 2004, get used to it.This post, in its entirety, is pure, unadulterated bullshit, and that's the only damn response it deserves.

If she was working for a media organization (her local CBS station for example) I would understand, what with objectivity and all, but as is, this is a crock of crap!

Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...

This post, in its entirety, is pure, unadulterated bullshit, and that's the only damn response it deserves.

he sure called that one didnt he

Bwahahahaha...

I'm all for it. I think she should have removed the flier to keep her job!

Conservatives are constantly asked (forced) to remove anything that has a religious context from any public place.

Yes and it's quite valid.


(I'm an atheist by the way) Well, this man owns this company, the land, and has an agreement with people he employs. If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason it is his investment supporting them and everyone else involved.

Hmmmm I think we have a liberterian here.


I know the ranting of what a fucking idiot I am, nazi, fag hater and everything else will surely pour out in response to my view, but the reality is...you liberals practice exactly what he did everyday. You have no problems with it when your not the victims of it. Well the best cure for it is to simply have it start affecting you as well.


Ok. Ace. Do explain the liberal persecution here?

The Relgious part is crap because the Consititution forbids the public use(ie one Religion over the other).


I look forward to the day when your not allowed to show any sign of your sexuality, heaven forbid we wouldn't have any rainbows around. I look forward to the day when you can't discuss your abortion in public on public lands, lord knows the Boy Scouts can't talk about their faith, for fear of offending liberals.

An atheist that makes a reference to heaven?

Discuss your abortion? Ummm ok.

As to the Boy Scouts. Sorry slick you don't know what you are talking about. I am an Eagle and there was no persecution of faith talk.


This is not a crime, this is pure and simple equality. Welcome to America 2004, get used to it.

Equality? HMmmm Who says education in America is poor? :rolleyes:

Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...Actually, what I have a problem with is making your employment contingent on suppressing your right to do what you wish with your private property. I thought the Republicans were the party of private property protections? What the hell? Or does that only count if you're the business owner instead of an employee?

Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...

Actually that was a very poor example. Republicans don't think Unions should exist so why would the Unions give money to them. I can only speak for the electricians but only a very tiny amount are republican.....

Bwahahahaha...

I'm all for it. I think she should have removed the flier to keep her job!

Conservatives are constantly asked (forced) to remove anything that has a religious context from any public place. (I'm an atheist by the way) Well, this man owns this company, the land, and has an agreement with people he employs. If he doesn't like someone for whatever reason it is his investment supporting them and everyone else involved.

Funny, I've never heard a case where someone was fired for not removing a "Jesus loves you" bumper sticker, or for not removing a Jesus fish from their car. Find me a case and I'll condemn it - but I've never seen one.

I know the ranting of what a fucking idiot I am, nazi, fag hater and everything else will surely pour out in response to my view, but the reality is...you liberals practice exactly what he did everyday. You have no problems with it when your not the victims of it. Well the best cure for it is to simply have it start affecting you as well.

I've never practiced what he did, nor been the victim of it, but I am still against it. Looks like your little theory is wrong, eh? It's not like the woman drove the vehicle as part of her job, nor did she wear a bumper sticker on her ass while at work. It was on her personal car and, as such, should never have been an issue to her employer.

I look forward to the day when your not allowed to show any sign of your sexuality, heaven forbid we wouldn't have any rainbows around. I look forward to the day when you can't discuss your abortion in public on public lands, lord knows the Boy Scouts can't talk about their faith, for fear of offending liberals.

The Boy Scouts can talk about their faith all they want. They can exclude whoever they want. They just can't use government money in order to do it. Is that so hard to understand?

would this have happened if she didn't park in the employee car park?

I have to say now how glad i am to work and live in the UK. i'm protected by discrimination laws, union representation, my own employment contract, from anything like this happening to me. I work for the british civil service and my vote has never been influenced in the whole time i've worked there. and if you've ever learnt anything about the british civil service it's that they have a reputation for trying to influence government.

Makes me realise how lucky i am.

This post, in its entirety, is pure, unadulterated bullshit, and that's the only damn response it deserves.

Awww poor baby, can't handle a little equality all of a sudden? Is the widdle baby upset becuase something that occurs to conservatives on a daily basis nation wide has occured once to a liberal and made the news? Poor widdle thang...let me kiss it and make it feel better...

I could post hundreds of examples of what your whining about on a daily basis in here, let me give a few examples in just one simple vein, freedom on campus, let alone the private sector.

A student at the University of Northern Colorado told legislators that a required essay topic on her criminology mid-term exam was: “Explain why George Bush is a war criminal.” When she submitted an essay explaining why Saddam Hussein was a war criminal instead, she was given an “F.”

A student at Metro State testified that his teacher had thrown him out of the course he was taking, stating, “I don’t want your right wing views in my classroom.” The student told legislators that he hoped that passage of the Academic Bill of Rights would put a “chill” on this type of abusive behavior. As the student stepped away from the microphone, he was immediately confronted by a man who was subsequently identified as the head of the philosophy department at Metro State, the school the student attended. In front of over 100 witnesses, the professor jabbed his finger at the student and said in a loud voice: “I got my Ph.D. at Harvard. I’ll see your f---ing ass in court. Then we’ll see a chilling effect.”

A property law professor who in the first week of class had told his students, “Everyone knows that the ‘R’ in Republican stands for ‘racist,’” and called a student who challenged his statement a “Nazi.”

Anyone familiar with the state of American college campuses today, realizes the suppression and harassment of conservative viewpoints is routine.

The conservative viewpoint is very simple:
“Students should be graded solely on the basis of their reasoned answers and appropriate knowledge of the subjects and disciplines they study, not on the basis of their political or religious beliefs.”

Having said that, we won't point out the obvious issues that fall into this exact same catagory, such as:

527's were great as long as it was 67 million dollars for democrats to 0 for republicans. As soon as a few hundred thousand were spent against you, you want ONLY the republican ads pulled...Gee that sounds very liberal of you.

Union money is fine as long as it is going for you, if an organization supports the republicans, they must be nazi's or right-wing neocons.

The case is obvious, your all for freedom of anything and everything as long as it isn't republican. That being said, get your own policies and positions and stop trying to claim our ideas as your own. I didn't see Clintoon pass anything to support your views, he just campaigned on them, where is the gay marriage rights he accomplished? You suckers...Kerry won't give you a damn thing your looking for either, he is just playing you for the fools you already are...snicker....

public property. Sad but true, If someone is in my property, under law they can only say what I want them to.

Um, not exactly, my boy. You can ask people to leave your residence without issue, and you can make rules such as "No political discussions on the job floor" if you own a business, but then the rule has to extend to ALL such materials if you do. The boss obviously had no such rules - his political letters in employee's paychecks being proof of that - and he cannot make up rules that apply to one employee (or group of employees) and not others. That is the law.

A business owner's authority is not absolute. Neither is free speech. But his actions were clearly in violation of her First Amendment rights (political free speech being protected, as the Amendment intended); it is not merely a government agency that can be held liable for violating civil rights.

I personally feel this was the wrong move.


But he should have the right to do whatever he wants with his own business. I personally fell that he made a mistake as who is better suited to work for someone else and make someone else money besides a lib. That being said if he made a bad decision let economics take care of it not lawyers. Dont use his goods and/or services. that is what you can do if you dont like his move.


I think it is funny

Um, not exactly, my boy. You can ask people to leave your residence without issue, and you can make rules such as "No political discussions on the job floor" if you own a business, but then the rule has to extend to ALL such materials if you do. The boss obviously had no such rules - his political letters in employee's paychecks being proof of that - and he cannot make up rules that apply to one employee (or group of employees) and not others. That is the law.

A business owner's authority is not absolute. Neither is free speech. But his actions were clearly in violation of her First Amendment rights (political free speech being protected, as the Amendment intended); it is not merely a government agency that can be held liable for violating civil rights.

I agree with you 100%, I'm not defending this guys actions. I'm mearly pointing out that it is only an issue now that a Republican has commited an offense on a democrat. Democrats always turn a blind eye when they are oppressing republicans, and can never admit guilt or fault. So now that this offense has occured, I say "Too damn bad, what's good for the goose is good for the gander". This might not be the fair objective rational, but it does seek proportion and balance in the amount of offenses. I think we owe you a few million offenses a day.

A student at the University of Northern Colorado told legislators that a required essay topic on her criminology mid-term exam was: “Explain why George Bush is a war criminal.” When she submitted an essay explaining why Saddam Hussein was a war criminal instead, she was given an “F.”

She didn't follow the asignment. Now if she argued he wasn't and still got an F then there would be a case.


The case is obvious, your all for freedom of anything and everything as long as it isn't republican. That being said, get your own policies and positions and stop trying to claim our ideas as your own. I didn't see Clintoon pass anything to support your views, he just campaigned on them, where is the gay marriage rights he accomplished? You suckers...Kerry won't give you a damn thing your looking for either, he is just playing you for the fools you already are...snicker....

Poor conservative boy; All this oppression. Just don't know how you can live with it.

Sorry slick, I have had arch-conservative professors so I don't buy the "liberal" hang out crap.

You also left off some of the reasons for the students getting tossed. Some teachers don't accept public debate. It's their classroom and that is just the way it is. People know whom these people are especially if it's a required class.

There are also times when the student gets down right nasty in front of the class as well.

Academic Bill of rights? :rolleyes: I managee to survive the asshole professors just fine.

Ohh and do offer the professional examples. We are curious if you can even prove any.

Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...

Unions actually give your union dues back to people in the union when they're on strike.

Bwahahahaha...

I'm all for it. I think she should have removed the flier to keep her job!

Conservatives are constantly asked (forced) to remove anything that has a religious context from any public place.


Do you have specific examples of this general trend that you've purportedly observed?

[QUOTE=Perrien]Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...[/QUOTE

OK, so, as someone who BELONGS to a union (SEIU), I HAVE to respond to this. We get to VOTE, you utter mooktard, and the endorsements and moneys go to who the majority of the union voted for. We elect representatives to our local and state chapters who in turn take polls on our opinions on matters. Your statement is just ignorant. Unions are democracy in action, dude.

Granted, I hate the chapter I belong to as being freakishly anti-management, but at least I offer my opinion when given the chance.

I agree with you 100%, I'm not defending this guys actions. I'm mearly pointing out that it is only an issue now that a Republican has commited an offense on a democrat. Democrats always turn a blind eye when they are oppressing republicans, and can never admit guilt or fault. So now that this offense has occured, I say "Too damn bad, what's good for the goose is good for the gander". This might not be the fair objective rational, but it does seek proportion and balance in the amount of offenses. I think we owe you a few million offenses a day.

Oh come on now. The Repubs pull the same crap as well.

I gave you specific cases, and you reply with mere hyperbole. I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my as*.

Some things are regional, and very different from the reality we have here in Colorado. For example, we have two, (2), that's right TWO registered republican professors at the University of Colorado...would you care to guess how many professors work at this university? Let's just say that less than 1 percent of the faculty are Republicans and over 95% are Democrats. Yeah, it's really even and fair.

I suggest we creat affirmative action on campus for professors. I think we should have atleast a 40/40 split. Seeing that this is a Republican majority state, why doesn't our campus reflect that?

Where is the liberal outcry? Oh wait, we have more important issues to discuss, some democrat lost her shitty job making bags.

The good news is that you are winning the argument. The bad news is that you are arguing with your imagination. I imagine that some day you will actually win an argument with a real person. Your future is bright, indeed!

And even when I thought this could be kept bipartisan...

I am a Bush supporter. This thread isn't about why I'm a Bush supporter, so don't start. But why do so many of you assume I can't think for myself? I think that what happened with this was just plain wrong. Pure and simple, that was a violation of First Amendment rights.

Do you have specific examples of this general trend that you've purportedly observed?

Los Angeles county seal was just redone this week. Had to get rid of that cross, it was offensive...specific enough for you?

I agree with you 100%, I'm not defending this guys actions. I'm mearly pointing out that it is only an issue now that a Republican has commited an offense on a democrat. Democrats always turn a blind eye when they are oppressing republicans, and can never admit guilt or fault. So now that this offense has occured, I say "Too damn bad, what's good for the goose is good for the gander". This might not be the fair objective rational, but it does seek proportion and balance in the amount of offenses. I think we owe you a few million offenses a day.
It's only a fucking issue right now because I brought it up on this forum. No major media has picked it up. Hell, I found the link on the Rotten.com news. Even the AP hasn't picked it up yet.

And you can take your bullshit "Democrats do this all the time and only get pissy when it happens to them" and shove it. This is partisan only because of the individual circumstances of this case--had it been the other way around, I'd be condemning it just as loudly. You guys are in power right now--you guys are in charge, so spare me your tortured "liberals are beating us up" crap, please.

[QUOTE=Perrien]Ok, let me get this right. He gave her the choice to remove the bumper sticker or not. She chose to keep it, so he fired her.

Now labor unions take your union dues and could care less what your political views are and give it all right over to the democrats in all sorts of interesting ways.

So you liberals have a problem with this business owner giving her a choice and showing her the consquence, but you have no problem with union organizers providing no choice and doing whatever the hell they want?

I gotcha...[/QUOTE

OK, so, as someone who BELONGS to a union (SEIU), I HAVE to respond to this. We get to VOTE, you utter mooktard, and the endorsements and moneys go to who the majority of the union voted for. We elect representatives to our local and state chapters who in turn take polls on our opinions on matters. Your statement is just ignorant. Unions are democracy in action, dude.

Granted, I hate the chapter I belong to as being freakishly anti-management, but at least I offer my opinion when given the chance.


You make this too easy for me. Have you ever seen a conservative union? NO! Do you have conservative memebers in your union? YES! Do the conservative members want to support liberal candidates? NO! Do they get forced to pay their dues to liberal candidates regardless of their wishes? YES! This is money they are forced to pay in order to keep their job. It is EXACTLY the same catagory as what happened to this lady. She didn't want to go along with the bosses anti Kerry position, so she lost her job. The second a conservative union memeber stops paying his dies, he loses his job. Not very much difference is there?

I gave you specific cases, and you reply with mere hyperbole. I am trying to see things from your perspective but I just can't get my head that far up my as*.

Some things are regional, and very different from the reality we have here in Colorado. For example, we have two, (2), that's right TWO registered republican professors at the University of Colorado...would you care to guess how many professors work at this university? Let's just say that less than 1 percent of the faculty are Republicans and over 95% are Democrats. Yeah, it's really even and fair.

I suggest we creat affirmative action on campus for professors. I think we should have atleast a 40/40 split. Seeing that this is a Republican majority state, why doesn't our campus reflect that?

Where is the liberal outcry? Oh wait, we have more important issues to discuss, some democrat lost her shitty job making bags.

The good news is that you are winning the argument. The bad news is that you are arguing with your imagination. I imagine that some day you will actually win an argument with a real person. Your future is bright, indeed!

Ok slick. What ever. If it makes you feel better. Your hurt my widdle feelings. Feel better? Feel superior?

When you enter the job world, we can talk again school boy. Guess what? All that "propganda" you were forced to learn. Don't mean much in the working world.

I am going to go off and cry now.

Feel better?

Goooood!

Glad to help!

Oh come on now. The Repubs pull the same crap as well.

I agree they do, but you don't see them running around blasting it in forums every five minutes and calling liberals nazi's and assholes everytime we see a liberal commit a retarded action. If we did that all life on this planet would cease as we would have no time to do anything else.

I agree with you 100%, I'm not defending this guys actions. I'm mearly pointing out that it is only an issue now that a Republican has commited an offense on a democrat. Democrats always turn a blind eye when they are oppressing republicans, and can never admit guilt or fault. So now that this offense has occured, I say "Too damn bad, what's good for the goose is good for the gander". This might not be the fair objective rational, but it does seek proportion and balance in the amount of offenses. I think we owe you a few million offenses a day.

OK, given that I am a school social worker (and therefore ethically committed to social justice) and naturally a liberal, I truly challenge you to come up with any NONAPOCRYPHAL cases of a Republican being fired or persecuted for their beliefs. The whole idea that conservatives, Republicans, and the religious are persecuted is a myth.

Does the left feel a massive ton of disrespect for the right, and actively voice it, often without thought or epistemology? Absolutely. How a social movement that can claim at a minimum 45% of this country's population AND the Congressional leadership AND the Executive Branch can make a case for being "persecuted" is beyond me. Given that the liberal media is a lie, that the left has lost the majority of its political power, and that the politics of fear have successfully supressed rational political dialogue, HOW ARE REPUBLICANS OPPRESSED?

So basically, your argument boils down to "an eye for an eye, and we need to pluck out a lot more eyes to feel satisfied." Well, there's another adage that works equally well, here, my boy: "Two wrongs don't make a right."

You make this too easy for me. Have you ever seen a conservative union? NO! Do you have conservative memebers in your union? YES! Do the conservative members want to support liberal candidates? NO! Do they get forced to pay their dues to liberal candidates regardless of their wishes? YES! This is money they are forced to pay in order to keep their job. It is EXACTLY the same catagory as what happened to this lady. She didn't want to go along with the bosses anti Kerry position, so she lost her job. The second a conservative union memeber stops paying his dies, he loses his job. Not very much difference is there?

And you impressive knowledge of unions and their activtives comes from where?

Ok slick. What ever. If it makes you feel better. Your hurt my widdle feelings. Feel better? Feel superior?

When you enter the job world, we can talk again school boy. Guess what? All that "propganda" you were forced to learn. Don't mean much in the working world.

I am going to go off and cry now.

Feel better?

Goooood!

Glad to help!

Good night John Boy...

I agree they do, but you don't see them running around blasting it in forums every five minutes and calling liberals nazi's and assholes everytime we see a liberal commit a retarded action. If we did that all life on this planet would cease as we would have no time to do anything else.

Actually they run around using "liberal" like a four letter word and they make frequent comments about communists, whiners, faggots and what not.

So each side does the same in their own way.

And you impressive knowledge of unions and their activtives comes from where?

Jimmy Hoffa is below my desk giving me a blow job as we speak. What about you?

Good night John Boy...

Good nighy Mary Ellen!

;)

Jimmy Hoffa is below my desk giving me a blow job as we speak. What about you?

:eek: A necrophiliac!

Awww poor baby, can't handle a little equality all of a sudden? Is the widdle baby upset becuase something that occurs to conservatives on a daily basis nation wide has occured once to a liberal and made the news? Poor widdle thang...let me kiss it and make it feel better...

Again, point out a single example in which a conservative viewpoint was put down in a similar manner. Find me a single example of someone being fired over a conservative political belief that was expressed on their vehicle (not on their immediate person) and I will condemn it.

A student at the University of Northern Colorado told legislators that a required essay topic on her criminology mid-term exam was: “Explain why George Bush is a war criminal.” When she submitted an essay explaining why Saddam Hussein was a war criminal instead, she was given an “F.”

Was there a class lecture explaining the lecturer's viewpoint. We are talking about a classroom here. It is understood that college professors inject their own viewpoints into a class, and, unfortunately, some of them do so as fact. Now, this professor was obviously wrong in injecting such a biased view into an essay topic, but if the material was covered then the student knew what he was looking for. She also should have appealed to whatever board the school had to get the prof reprimanded.

A student at Metro State testified that his teacher had thrown him out of the course he was taking, stating, “I don’t want your right wing views in my classroom.” The student told legislators that he hoped that passage of the Academic Bill of Rights would put a “chill” on this type of abusive behavior. As the student stepped away from the microphone, he was immediately confronted by a man who was subsequently identified as the head of the philosophy department at Metro State, the school the student attended. In front of over 100 witnesses, the professor jabbed his finger at the student and said in a loud voice: “I got my Ph.D. at Harvard. I’ll see your f---ing ass in court. Then we’ll see a chilling effect.”

(a) The student should have retorted with "Well, I am paying your salary by paying for this class, so deal with it."
(b)The prof in question also should have been fired. Professors are supposed to encourage free thinking and discussion, not discourage it.

A property law professor who in the first week of class had told his students, “Everyone knows that the ‘R’ in Republican stands for ‘racist,’” and called a student who challenged his statement a “Nazi.”

Again, and example of a bad prof.

Anyone familiar with the state of American college campuses today, realizes the suppression and harassment of conservative viewpoints is routine.

Funny, the only political view ever espoused by my profs was Republican. The teacher asked how many of us voted, reprimanded those who didn't and then jokingly stated that anyone who didn't vote Republican was getting an F. That was the *only* time any prof talked about their political views in my 5 years at an undergrad institution.

The conservative viewpoint is very simple:
“Students should be graded solely on the basis of their reasoned answers and appropriate knowledge of the subjects and disciplines they study, not on the basis of their political or religious beliefs.”

If I feel this way, does that make me conservative then? That's one I've never been accused of. Of course, if you are in a poli sci or religion course, that line gets a little blurry. You need to present *reasoned* answers to any question given and some people will view grading that reflects bad reasoning as actually reflecting discrimination.

527's were great as long as it was 67 million dollars for democrats to 0 for republicans. As soon as a few hundred thousand were spent against you, you want ONLY the republican ads pulled...Gee that sounds very liberal of you.

527s are perfectly fine on both sides - as long as they are not preaching obvious lies.

Union money is fine as long as it is going for you, if an organization supports the republicans, they must be nazi's or right-wing neocons.

Eh? I care nothing about republican vs. democrat. Union money is fine as long as it is going to the people who pay for the union.

The case is obvious, your all for freedom of anything and everything as long as it isn't republican.

Again, I don't care about republican vs. democrat. I care about the freedoms granted by the constitution.

You suckers...Kerry won't give you a damn thing your looking for either, he is just playing you for the fools you already are...snicker....

Probably not - but we won't have four more years of a president that is systematically dismantling the constitution for his own ends.

1. While Colorado is mostly liberal, there are plenty of schools that are mostly Conservative. One example is Alabama. In addition, no one is forcing anybody to go to Colorado.
2. This is awful that this happened to this woman, and is completely wrong. However, this should not be blamed on the state of Alabama. While many are conservative, there are still liberals. In addition this should not make you not want to come here or anything of that sort. That is ridiculous and ignorant.

Los Angeles county seal was just redone this week. Had to get rid of that cross, it was offensive...specific enough for you?

One example. Outstanding. :rolleyes:

And you even got the interpretation wrong. The ACLU argues that it is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. It's not due to offensiveness.

Cutting taxes
Getting C's in school, Kerry was too good to get a C.
Better at telling Terrorist to "Bring it on"
okay, he may be better at that, but in the wars and stuff, he HID, he didnt do crap, honestly, he's a little cry baby, getting back at Saddam for making his ''daddy'' look bad. I mean, honestly, if its down to whose better than who, get your facts straight.

Wow Dempub, Can I be your groupie? :p

You make this too easy for me. Have you ever seen a conservative union? NO! Do you have conservative memebers in your union? YES! Do the conservative members want to support liberal candidates? NO! Do they get forced to pay their dues to liberal candidates regardless of their wishes? YES! This is money they are forced to pay in order to keep their job. It is EXACTLY the same catagory as what happened to this lady. She didn't want to go along with the bosses anti Kerry position, so she lost her job. The second a conservative union memeber stops paying his dies, he loses his job. Not very much difference is there?


Um, to demonstrate your ignorance of laws governing union dues: If you work for a union shop (which is a workplace that has union representation), you can opt to NOT belong to the union. However, since you are pulling down the same protections as your fellow workers, you MUST have the same amount of money taken out of your wages as employees paying dues. That money is then donated to the charity of your choice. In fact, there are several Republicans at work who have chosen to do this. They still benefit from Union protection, but may not vote as members, and their money goes to a cause THEY choose. Sounds pretty fair to me.

It sounds to me like your hostility to unions is largely due to ignorance.

One example. Outstanding. :rolleyes:

And you even got the interpretation wrong. The ACLU argues that it is a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. It's not due to offensiveness.

Also, there are many that belive in the seperation clause that wonder if the action was wrong on historical reasons. It had been there for a looong time(can't think of the date) and only recently the fight began.

It would be different if it wasn't there and they tried to add it.....

How many people even know what their city emblems look like? ;)

I have no bumperstickers on my car. But they shouldn't be allowed to have it on at work because it might cause them to lose business. I think employers should be allowed to fire any one over any reason they want.
wow, we can tell he's a Bush supporter... ''my way or no way!''

Some things are regional, and very different from the reality we have here in Colorado. For example, we have two, (2), that's right TWO registered republican professors at the University of Colorado...would you care to guess how many professors work at this university? Let's just say that less than 1 percent of the faculty are Republicans and over 95% are Democrats. Yeah, it's really even and fair.

Do you have a source for those numbers, or are you just making them up? So, there are only 2 *registered* Republicans and maybe a few more *registered* Democrats. Chances are, most of the profs are independent voters. Highly educated people do tend towards being independent, rather than condoning a specific party.

I suggest we creat affirmative action on campus for professors. I think we should have atleast a 40/40 split. Seeing that this is a Republican majority state, why doesn't our campus reflect that?

Could it be that people with more education have a tendency to be more independent and even sometimes slightly more liberal than less educated people? Or must it be a conspiracy?

Los Angeles county seal was just redone this week. Had to get rid of that cross, it was offensive...specific enough for you?

That is a public entity paid for with government funds.

I want an example of a religious or conservative person fired for their *individual* beliefs. Can you please give us an example since you seem to think it is so prevalent?

Um, to demonstrate your ignorance of laws governing union dues: If you work for a union shop (which is a workplace that has union representation), you can opt to NOT belong to the union. However, since you are pulling down the same protections as your fellow workers, you MUST have the same amount of money taken out of your wages as employees paying dues. That money is then donated to the charity of your choice. In fact, there are several Republicans at work who have chosen to do this. They still benefit from Union protection, but may not vote as members, and their money goes to a cause THEY choose. Sounds pretty fair to me.

It sounds to me like your hostility to unions is largely due to ignorance.
Eeeeeezackly.

Um, to demonstrate your ignorance of laws governing union dues: If you work for a union shop (which is a workplace that has union representation), you can opt to NOT belong to the union. However, since you are pulling down the same protections as your fellow workers, you MUST have the same amount of money taken out of your wages as employees paying dues. That money is then donated to the charity of your choice. In fact, there are several Republicans at work who have chosen to do this. They still benefit from Union protection, but may not vote as members, and their money goes to a cause THEY choose. Sounds pretty fair to me.

"Union shop" is not synonymous with "has union representation". Union shop means that you are required to join the union upon hiring.

However, an "open shop" is what you have in a right-to-work state where there is a union--the difference being that they cannot compel anybody to join as they would in other states.

I'm assuming what you're talking about, with those Republicans, is financial core membership as opposed to full membership, but I'm not sure if that's what it is, from your wording.

This is a good primer to how the various levels of union membership work and what IS and is NOT required.
http://www.libertyhaven.com/politicsandcurrentevents/unionsandotherorganizations/mythcompul.html

Wow Dempub, Can I be your groupie? :p

Hehe, sure. Always wanted a groupie =)

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

Beautiful logic.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)

I don't know. The article says that she had an appointment with an employment lawyer and had cancelled it, and that she had applied for unemployment benefits.

Problem is, Alabama, like all fifty states, is what's called an "at will" state, which means that both employer and employee can end a job at will. There doesn't have to be any cause for termination, although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation. Gaddis won't be able to stop her from collecting unemployment benefits, and if she sues and it makes its way to a jury, she'd likely find a sympathetic ear, but in the long run I don't know fro certain that she has a case. I need to point out that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just hypothesizing here.
NY is not a "right to work" (read, right to fire) state. There has to be just cause given. Otherwise you can successfully sue. Regarding finding a sympathetic ear in Alabama . . . a snowball has a better chance in an Alabama August.

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

Beautiful logic.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)
Parked on his property or not, she still has the 2nd Ammendment protecting her. Freedom of speech... and if people will realize this, they would know that Bush is TRYING to be a dictator, Hitler started the same way Bush is, more or less.

Do you have a source for those numbers, or are you just making them up? So, there are only 2 *registered* Republicans and maybe a few more *registered* Democrats. Chances are, most of the profs are independent voters. Highly educated people do tend towards being independent, rather than condoning a specific party.



Could it be that people with more education have a tendency to be more independent and even sometimes slightly more liberal than less educated people? Or must it be a conspiracy?

Both Newsweek and US News and World Report ran articles in recent issues talking about the increase in conservative and Republican campus groups over the past few years. Memberships in these groups actually outstrips liberal memberships now. Granted, campuses the world over are often the source of most radically left thought, but it would appear that there is another trend appearing.

Actually, I bet most of this increase is due to the rise of libertarianism in the young. These young libertarians are surprisingly conservative. Conversely, most college professors are now of an age that means they were educated in the sixties and seventies - so it should really surprise no one that the professors are far to the left.

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

I don't recall ever saying that.... Maybe I'm not a leftist though.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)

None of this changes the fact that, legal or not, firing someone over a sticker on their car is wrong. She was fired because she supported a political idea that he did not. This is truly idiotic.

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

Beautiful logic.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)
Let's be honest here--how would you feel if your boss told you that you had to remove a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker or lose your job? Wouldn't you rightfully be pissed off that your boss was telling you what to do with your personal property, and more so that he was making your employment contingent on the removal of that bumpersticker and refused any other potential options? Employees are not serfs, and they don't give up their opinions at the workplace door.

:eek: A necrophiliac!

Did they find a body? Right now we can only prove homosexual.

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

Beautiful logic.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)


Actually the notes on the paychecks and the removal of the bumper tag kind of suggests he was "suggesting" how she should vote.

He can't legally force her and he probably knows that.

The problem of the property is rather interesting.

If the owner forces the worker to remove the tags, doesn't he have to force the customers to remove it?

Parked on his property or not, she still has the 2nd Ammendment protecting her. Freedom of speech... and if people will realize this, they would know that Bush is TRYING to be a dictator, Hitler started the same way Bush is, more or less.

So you're saying Bush told this asshole to fire her?

Did they find a body? Right now we can only prove homosexual.

The last I heard there was a mob guy that said he was buried under one of the sections of Giant's Stadium. They said they were going to look, but I never read the outcome.....

Right or wrong, the employer's actions are legally allowable.

So you're saying Bush told this asshole to fire her?
no, I am NOT saying that. He is just trying to be a dictator, there is in no fact, a way you can get THAT out of what i just said. My point is, that he shouldn't be allowed to do this crap to his employees or anyone else, he is taking it bush's way, ''either do as I say, or be punished'' more or less...

On a completely unrelated note, I'd just like to say that I think this is the longest any of my threads has ever gone, and I'd like to thank everyone involved, even the idiots--you know who you are. j/k :D

NY is not a "right to work" (read, right to fire) state. There has to be just cause given. Otherwise you can successfully sue. Regarding finding a sympathetic ear in Alabama . . . a snowball has a better chance in an Alabama August.

Ahem. I'm from Alabama, have you ever even been here? There are plenty of "sympathetic ears" here. The employer may have had the legal ability to fire her but it doesn't make it right. If no one was sympathetic to what happened to her no one here would have even heard about it.

I would appreciate if people would stop using one man's actions as basis to judge an entire state.

I don't know. The article says that she had an appointment with an employment lawyer and had cancelled it, and that she had applied for unemployment benefits.

Problem is, Alabama, like all fifty states, is what's called an "at will" state, which means that both employer and employee can end a job at will. There doesn't have to be any cause for termination, although there are protections in place that keep employers from firing you for race, religion and sexual orientation. Gaddis won't be able to stop her from collecting unemployment benefits, and if she sues and it makes its way to a jury, she'd likely find a sympathetic ear, but in the long run I don't know fro certain that she has a case. I need to point out that I'm not a lawyer, so I'm just hypothesizing here.

i live in one of those states and unfortunately-they can fire you for no apparant reason. however, in this case, if she can prove or get other employees to say how his behavior was and about the note in the paychecks, she could sue for workplace harassment. harassment covers a whole field of issues. she should seek legal advice and an attorney could tell her if she has a case for harassment and also she could get punative damages for stress and loss of wages through no fault of her own

Let's be honest here--how would you feel if your boss told you that you had to remove a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker or lose your job? Wouldn't you rightfully be pissed off that your boss was telling you what to do with your personal property, and more so that he was making your employment contingent on the removal of that bumpersticker and refused any other potential options? Employees are not serfs, and they don't give up their opinions at the workplace door.

I'd be ticked if my employer told me that and didn't tell a Kerry supporter who also had a sticker.

If it were a policy where no one was allowed to do political campaigning on company property, I would not be so irritated...maybe I'd grumble a bit, but I wouldn't be too mad.

I think what bugs me worst is the partisan policy. And this comes from a Bush supporter, mind you!

Isn't is technically on her property? Didn't she pay for the car with her own money, so it's up to her what she puts on the car?

I think both the manager that forced her to remove the sticker or quit should be fired, as well as those college professors who forced their views. Political viewpoints shouldn't matter in education or the workplace.

Ahem. I'm from Alabama, have you ever even been here? There are plenty of "sympathetic ears" here. The employer may have had the legal ability to fire her but it doesn't make it right. If no one was sympathetic to what happened to her no one here would have even heard about it.

I would appreciate if people would stop using one man's actions as basis to judge an entire state.I imagine there are, but there won't be too many in positions of power. I'm from Louisiana--I know what labor conditions are like down there. To say the deck is stacked against her in legal terms is an understatement.

Now I have no doubt that there will probably be an upswell in popular support--if the story gets out. Working people of all political backgrounds are likely to call bullshit on this action, because they all know how easily the tables could be turned on them. Getting the story out is the key.

So here's my call to action. If you're pissed about this, then send an email to any or all of the major news outlets, including the link. Send it to the AP, to Reuters, to Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, the big three networks, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Chicago tribune--you name it. Send a link to your local paper. Write a letter to the editor.

Even if you're a Republican, if you're a working person, this affects your rights as an employee. I've been quite heartened by the support for this woman's situation by Republicans on this thread,with a couple of notable exceptions. It just goes to show that some things to transcend party identification.

I'd be ticked if my employer told me that and didn't tell a Kerry supporter who also had a sticker.

If it were a policy where no one was allowed to do political campaigning on company property, I would not be so irritated...maybe I'd grumble a bit, but I wouldn't be too mad.

I think what bugs me worst is the partisan policy. And this comes from a Bush supporter, mind you!
Exactly--I'd have no issue with a business owner who said "we're gonna keep politics at home, and keep it out of here." It would probably make for a more peaceful work environment in an election year as contentious as this one. :D

But that wasn't the case here. It was a case of the owner pushing for one candidate and then telling his employee not to push hers--on her own time--or hit the highway. And that just ain't right.

yes i agree with incertonia.....we should send letters or emails. dont let that pig get away with something like that

Isn't is technically on her property? Didn't she pay for the car with her own money, so it's up to her what she puts on the car?

I think both the manager that forced her to remove the sticker or quit should be fired, as well as those college professors who forced their views. Political viewpoints shouldn't matter in education or the workplace.

Technically, the car is also his property. He paid her his money so she could buy it. I think he should have taken her car away as well.

Technically, the car is also his property. He paid her his money so she could buy it. I think he should have taken her car away as well.

WHAT???? :eek:

Technically, the car is also his property. He paid her his money so she could buy it. I think he should have taken her car away as well.

............................

Yup, he should have taken the car away, and subjected her to the gas chamber while he was at it.

As long as he and other conservatives keep being accused of being Hitler and Nazi's why not start adopting their damn policies and behavior in earnest.

Fire her from her job, take the skanks car and gas the bitch. That would make it a fair fight, then you people would atleast be justified in your accusations.

;)

NO-he paid her money for the work she does. that makes them even. if he gave her the money as a gift-still theres no law that gives him ownership rights to what she buys unless he signs his name to a contract....such as a loan. are you that ignorant or are you just being an ass?

Yup, he should have taken the car away, and subjected her to the gas chamber while he was at it.

As long as he and other conservatives keep being accused of being Hitler and Nazi's why not start adopting their damn policies and behavior in earnest.

Fire her from her job, take the skanks car and gas the bitch. That would make it a fair fight, then you people would atleast be justified in your accusations.

;)


you need meds

Technically, the car is also his property. He paid her his money so she could buy it. I think he should have taken her car away as well.
You don't actually believe that, right? Or are you arguing that we truly are serfs and our employers are our feudal lords?

Oh, my mistake, I thought everyone in here was being an ass. I just wanted to join the club. :headbang:

So here's my call to action. If you're pissed about this, then send an email to any or all of the major news outlets, including the link. Send it to the AP, to Reuters, to Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, the big three networks, the NY Times, the Washington Post, the LA Times, the Chicago tribune--you name it. Send a link to your local paper. Write a letter to the editor.

Good call, I appreciate your response. I've sent the link to a bunch of people thus far, as well as looking into getting the Huntsville media involved.

So I started off reading this and found some decent comments from people that sounded as if their heads were not up thier asses. What happened?

Are we so stuck on labels that all you are is a Republican/Democrat? Who the hell cares? What happened to common sense? The woman was wronged by some jackass employer who feels he owns everyone who works for him and I would hope she has a case to sue the crap out of him. At the very least (hopefully) she'll be a little more selective about who she works for.

I've been reading people throw insults back and forth like they're still in 8th grade instead of logically debating this. Now in my opinion there's really no room for debate but because this whole issue is about personal freedoms there has to be.

With that said I couldn't care less who anyone votes for. I personally don't like either prospect. You have one who proves time and again that he just scraped by in school and another who has no views and I wouldn't trust to watch my cat while I'm out of town. It's too bad we can't just have a pay-per-view cage match and the survivor gets the pretty office with a view.

Now kiddies, back to the dick-swingin'!

BTW... my apologies to those who chose to ignore the shit flinging and just stuck to the thread's topic.

Legal or not, it certainly was a shitty thing to do to fire an employee for refusing to remove a Kerry bumper sticker. It would be equally shitty were it a Bush bumper sticker.

Now, I'm a big ol' liberal (and an Alabamian - there are a lot more of us than many realize), and I'm trying to imagine if there are any circumstances similar to this under which I'd threaten to fire an employee if I owned a business. And I'm thinking...well, yes, actually, I think there are.

If I somehow managed to end up with, say, a Klan member in my employ who put a bumper sticker on his/her car with some deeply scary racist shit. Or, say, a bumper sticker that said "Kill All Queers" or some such thing. I think I would go ballistic and not even offer that employee the option of removing the sticker first - I think I'd just fire him/her. (Note, also, that I would be disinclined to hire such a person in the first place, if I had a way of knowing their feelings, which you could certainly say is discriminating against someone for their politics or social views.)

So...I don't know. I feel sort of theoretically itchy about this.

What the crap? That is just wrong-People shouldn't lose their jobs over who they will vote for! And Perrien, stop being an ass.

Legal or not, it certainly was a shitty thing to do to fire an employee for refusing to remove a Kerry bumper sticker. It would be equally shitty were it a Bush bumper sticker.

Now, I'm a big ol' liberal (and an Alabamian - there are a lot more of us than many realize), and I'm trying to imagine if there are any circumstances similar to this under which I'd threaten to fire an employee if I owned a business. And I'm thinking...well, yes, actually, I think there are.

If I somehow managed to end up with, say, a Klan member in my employ who put a bumper sticker on his/her car with some deeply scary racist shit. Or, say, a bumper sticker that said "Kill All Queers" or some such thing. I think I would go ballistic and not even offer that employee the option of removing the sticker first - I think I'd just fire him/her. (Note, also, that I would be disinclined to hire such a person in the first place, if I had a way of knowing their feelings, which you could certainly say is discriminating against someone for their politics or social views.)

So...I don't know. I feel sort of theoretically itchy about this.


Yea, but the bumper sticker doesn't offend anyone. If there was a bumper sticker that said "I hate christians, they are all nazis and should die", then i as a employer would ask to remove it, as it disrupts the workplace?

But a "vote for kerry" sticker?

Unions actually give your union dues back to people in the union when they're on strike.
Really? I know about 25,000 union 'brothers' who missed pay call last strike. Local 32B-J SEIU

Three things bother me about this thread. In no particular order:

1) That Malime Kashia quoted the Freedom of Speech as being under the 2nd ammendment.

2) The claim that the employer told her who to vote for. He didn't. He just told her she couldn't advertise her choice on his private property. I saw no mention at any point in the article of "Vote Bush, or else". Just "Get rid of the Kerry sticker".

3) The people who claim private enterprise falls under the first ammendment.

So far as I know it, the below is the wording of the First Ammendment.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Now, maybe I'm just slow (certainly wouldn't be unbelievable) but the part that catches my eye is this: Congress shall make no law. I interpret two things from this. First, the ammendment is intended to apply to congress, not to individual (non-government) citizens. I assume this based on the complete lack of mention of any group or person other than congress in the ammendment.

Or more simply put, it does not state "No person shall prohibit blah blah blah...".

Secondly, I see what I feel is a fairly direct explanation of what congress will not do. It will not pass a law which interferes with the freedom of speech, or the press, or peaceful assembly, or to petition the government.

That's what I take away from the first ammendment.

Now, putting what I see aside, I tried to find where there is any mention that a person on private property cannot control what you bring on to that property. He is not controlling her thoughts or opinions, he is telling her a bumper sticker on the back of her car is not acceptable.

Given that he is not congress - nor any form of government - and that he is not enacting any law, but exercising his legal right to control what employees bring on to his property, I fail to see how the wording of the first ammendment grants her any rights in this situation.

So if any of the people who believe she is covered by the first ammendment could explain how it applies, being so kind as to point out the specific part(s) which reference the limitations on actions of a privately owned enterprise, I would be very grateful.

That isn't even to say that I am certain what he did is legal. However, I fail to see how the first ammendment grants her any legal protection in this case.

Legal or not, it certainly was a shitty thing to do to fire an employee for refusing to remove a Kerry bumper sticker. It would be equally shitty were it a Bush bumper sticker.

Now, I'm a big ol' liberal (and an Alabamian - there are a lot more of us than many realize), and I'm trying to imagine if there are any circumstances similar to this under which I'd threaten to fire an employee if I owned a business. And I'm thinking...well, yes, actually, I think there are.

If I somehow managed to end up with, say, a Klan member in my employ who put a bumper sticker on his/her car with some deeply scary racist shit. Or, say, a bumper sticker that said "Kill All Queers" or some such thing. I think I would go ballistic and not even offer that employee the option of removing the sticker first - I think I'd just fire him/her. (Note, also, that I would be disinclined to hire such a person in the first place, if I had a way of knowing their feelings, which you could certainly say is discriminating against someone for their politics or social views.)

So...I don't know. I feel sort of theoretically itchy about this.


Using your logic, she should have just been shot and not fired.

Thank goodness she didn't have a Ralph Nader bumper sticker...she would have been fire and then arrested lol

I think your analysis is pretty much correct, Sydenia. This isn't a First Amendment issue--it's a labor law issue, and since none of us are labor lawyers licensed to practice in Alabama (at least I'm fairly certain of that :D), we're all speculating.

But one thing is for certain--if this story makes anything close to the mainstream press, it'll be one boatload of bad press for the owner of the company. If the guy's smart, he'll offer Gobbels her job back, with a raise and payment for lost time just to get the press off his back, and honestly, that would be good enough for me.

Ahem. I'm from Alabama, have you ever even been here? There are plenty of "sympathetic ears" here. The employer may have had the legal ability to fire her but it doesn't make it right. If no one was sympathetic to what happened to her no one here would have even heard about it.

I would appreciate if people would stop using one man's actions as basis to judge an entire state.

Do you have all your teeth! :p

Yes I have been to your state! ;)

If your Klan member's bumper-sticker said, "Kill All Queers", surely you'd be morally justified in asking for its removal because it would be an incitement to violence. (Defence lawyer: "But my client is making a generic statement, not calling for the murder of an individual, so it's permissible!")
If it said, "Jail All Queers", your justification would be that it's an incitement to discrimination. Moral justification, that is.
If it said, "Vote for the Klan" then I don't think you would be justified -- if you subscribe to democratic ideals -- because a citizen has the right to choose and endorse a political party and encourage others to do so.
However, if your democratic system bans parties that oppose democracy, then you go for it because your employee is breaking the law.
But is your system then really democratic?

Isn't ethics a fun discipline?

Los Angeles county seal was just redone this week. Had to get rid of that cross, it was offensive...specific enough for you?
1. A government, no matter how small or local, cannot use religious imagery at all. It is a violation of law.

2. Employment and slavery are not equal states. Here in NYC you do not fire a person for their political views unless you want your former employee to take over your company.

You make this too easy for me. Have you ever seen a conservative union? NO! Do you have conservative memebers in your union? YES! Do the conservative members want to support liberal candidates? NO! Do they get forced to pay their dues to liberal candidates regardless of their wishes? YES! This is money they are forced to pay in order to keep their job. It is EXACTLY the same catagory as what happened to this lady. She didn't want to go along with the bosses anti Kerry position, so she lost her job. The second a conservative union memeber stops paying his dies, he loses his job. Not very much difference is there?
You are behind the times. For about 10 or 15 years now unions are prohibited by federal law from using general funds for political donations. The SEIU (one I know of) has it's own PAC and solicits contributions for this purpose.

Interesting. Everyone is ready to kill the employer in this situation and I find it very interesting that the paper chose to run the article before they could get in contact with her former employer and get at least a no comment for the record. Was the reason for her dismisal this bumper sticker? I don't know, you don't know, even she doesn't know, some assumptions have been made.

Perhaps she is banging the Kerry drum on work hours reducing the work productivity in the plant, perhaps she had been warned that political materials were banned from the worksite, only her version of the events have been given. I myself having lived in a republic for my entire life and based on the fact that I will not rush to judge and I will gain all the facts before I decide, find myself dismayed that so many people will let their political hatred run their lives and want such hurtful things to happen to someone they don't know and whose side of the story they have not yet heard. When all the facts are on the table is when I would be ready to condem this man, until that time I reserve my judgment. I just hope cooler heads prevail in Alabama, and facts are gathered before condemnation falls upon this individual.

1. A government, no matter how small or local, cannot use religious imagery at all. It is a violation of law.

2. Employment and slavery are not equal states. Here in NYC you do not fire a person for their political views unless you want your former employee to take over your company.

Then get rid of all of those religious names of cities while your at it. I find San Jose, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego and the hundreds of others disgusting. We should also remove the governemtn offices in all of the missionary style buildings as well.

That damn seal had been there for over 100 years, but now we finally got it! Ha...while we are at it we need ro rename San Francisco, I nominate "Gay Bay", that'll make the masses happy.

You are behind the times. For about 10 or 15 years now unions are prohibited by federal law from using general funds for political donations. The SEIU (one I know of) has it's own PAC and solicits contributions for this purpose.

Horse by another name is still a horse bonehead.

Monday Night football is about to start, get your licks in quick.

Horse by another name is still a horse bonehead.And so you prove, yet again, that you know nothing about the way political fundraising works and the ways in which that money can be spent. Why am I not surprised?

What a dumbass redneck her boss must be. That is totally unjustified to be fired just because you dislike that idiot, war lord Bush. That "My way or the highway" attitude is pretty dangerous in the work place because you can end up firing good employees over stupid, little things like this.

LOL a new line in the letter on his emplyee's paychecks

- Bush's tax cut payed for this massive wrongful dismissal suit...

Nice, thats the funniest thing I have seen so far today.

President Vladimir Putin on Monday demanded an overhaul of Russia's political system, including an end to the direct popular election of governors, saying the changes were needed to combat terrorism.

Putin also asked for an overhaul of the way Russians elect their parliament. The entire 450 seats would be elected from candidates on party lists.

Ok, Bush is a Nazi, and abolishing freedoms. Contrast and compare that with this clown. I think this lady losing her job is about as relevant as a gnat on Bea Arthur's ass. All of you Putin supporters, where are you?

If she lived in Russia she would have been tortured and shipped to the goulag.

President Vladimir Putin on Monday demanded an overhaul of Russia's political system, including an end to the direct popular election of governors, saying the changes were needed to combat terrorism.

Putin also asked for an overhaul of the way Russians elect their parliament. The entire 450 seats would be elected from candidates on party lists.

Ok, Bush is a Nazi, and abolishing freedoms. Contrast and compare that with this clown. I think this lady losing her job is about as relevant as a gnat on Bea Arthur's ass. All of you Putin supporters, where are you?

If she lived in Russia she would have been tortured and shipped to the goulag.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. What's the matter, Perrien? When you can't win the argument, you try to change the subject? :rolleyes:

What a dumbass redneck her boss must be. That is totally unjustified to be fired just because you dislike that idiot, war lord Bush. That "My way or the highway" attitude is pretty dangerous in the work place because you can end up firing good employees over stupid, little things like this.

Before you give her the "Employee of the month award". Notice how the article made no effort whatsoever to contact the owner. I doubt she was super-employee. She was probably spewing liberal bullcrap 24/7 while on the job and this guy snapped.

I'm speculating of course, but that is just as likely as what your suggesting, and more probable.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. What's the matter, Perrien? When you can't win the argument, you try to change the subject? :rolleyes:

Not at all, I'm just bored with your trivial pointless attempts at making a point. Give me something to work with here. Simply throwing out the ole redneck line just doesn't motivate me anymore lol

Before you give her the "Employee of the month award". Notice how the article made no effort whatsoever to contact the owner. I doubt she was super-employee. She was probably spewing liberal bullcrap 24/7 while on the job and this guy snapped.

I'm speculating of course, but that is just as likely as what your suggesting, and more probable.


Ok, I actually would consider myself between a Democrat and a Republican, so I could defend if a Republican was fired by a Democrat (I just hate George W. Bush, John McCain would have been a much better president) but who cares if she's speaking poltical beliefs at work? If her boss disagrees with her, then fine. But being fired over something like that is just stupid.

I am liberal, voting for Kerry, and a strong anti-bush supporter. I feel that what has gone on in Alabama should not have been done, but come on people, not all of em' conservatives are mouth-breathing, inbred rednecks, like Rush Limbaugh and George Bush.

Look, any moron (including myself) realizes she was not treated fair at all. I'm pulling your leg by being so adamant about that. I'm simply making the point that it is such a horrible act when the poor liberal supporter is wrong, but conservatives get treated like this and worse everyday, and nobody here would ever defend them. You guys would more than likely laugh at them.

What about the guy who was put into a headlock at the Kerry meeting and tossed to the ground. Everyone thought that was hilarious. What about the guy that was tackled by the Al Franken, pretty funny stuff on the boards and the press. Now you want someone like me to be concerned becuase a lady lost her job?

I think it is a double standard and will continue to think so until normal people agree both are wrong. I'm still waiting for the appology from Kerry who was standing ten feet away from the incident. Bush was nowhere near this "Firing", but liberals act like he ran the lady over personally with a truck. Notice a problem here?

I am liberal, voting for Kerry, and a strong anti-bush supporter. I feel that what has gone on in Alabama should not have been done, but come on people, not all of em' conservatives are mouth-breathing, inbred rednecks, like Rush Limbaugh and George Bush.

This is a prime example from a typical liberal idiot.

Not all liberals are cock-sucking homo's that take it up the ass like John Kerry and his skanky man bitch John Edwards.

Ok, are we even yet?

I doubt it, you libs will cry foul...I didn't say exactly what you said, the way you said it, therefor it isn't valid.

Look, any moron (including myself) realizes she was not treated fair at all. I'm pulling your leg by being so adamant about that. I'm simply making the point that it is such a horrible act when the poor liberal supporter is wrong, but conservatives get treated like this and worse everyday, and nobody here would ever defend them. You guys would more than likely laugh at them.

What about the guy who was put into a headlock at the Kerry meeting and tossed to the ground. Everyone thought that was hilarious. What about the guy that was tackled by the Al Franken, pretty funny stuff on the boards and the press. Now you want someone like me to be concerned becuase a lady lost her job?

I think it is a double standard and will continue to think so until normal people agree both are wrong. I'm still waiting for the appology from Kerry who was standing ten feet away from the incident. Bush was nowhere near this "Firing", but liberals act like he ran the lady over personally with a truck. Notice a problem here?


Judging by what the flyer said about what Bush's tax cuts did for that company, I'm thinking that her boss is a puppet of George W. Bush.

Judging by what the flyer said about what Bush's tax cuts did for that company, I'm thinking that her boss is a puppet of George W. Bush.

Becuase he supports the guys view, that doesn't make him a puppet. They have the same view, what's wrong with that. Is every liberal a "puppet"?

Some folks tend to agree, that is why the country is split 50/50

I'm out, Monday Night football is on. Good debate, crude at times, but not overly so. Enjoy the thread and have fun.

The fact her boss thinks that those tax cuts are actually good for America. I know there are many like him. Hell, I know people who think that was one of the best things a presidents done but I see them as part of the reason that the US economy was hurt so badly and don't give me the job growth numbers from last month because even analysts thought they seemed a little low. Rich people don't need tax cuts.

The fact her boss thinks that those tax cuts are actually good for America. I know there are many like him. Hell, I know people who thinkt hat was one of the best things a presidents done but I see them as part of the reason that the US economy was hurt so badly and don't give me the job growth numbers from last month because even analysts thought they seemed a little low. Rich people don't need tax cuts.
now thats a quote i can agree to, finally! :)

i see that there are a bunch of liberals in this debate, but now that perrien left, is there any consevatives out there to continue the debate? If not i'm gonna leave and come back later.

It's official: Bush supporters are imbred rednecks. :rolleyes:

We are not all rednecks! :mp5: :gundge: :sniper: :mad: :headbang: Or are we?

I'm semi conservative, altough don't get me to defend Bush because I just can't.

I think it is a double standard and will continue to think so until normal people agree both are wrong. I'm still waiting for the appology from Kerry who was standing ten feet away from the incident. Bush was nowhere near this "Firing", but liberals act like he ran the lady over personally with a truck. Notice a problem here?

No actually we are waiting for you to make a point.

This tactic of conservative "oppression" is bullshit. Your only cases were school related and everybody here says that don't see it.

The job stuff is questionable as well. When I have seen conservatives "oppressed" is because they(the christian variety) try to force their views on others. Ex. Conservative Christian Human Resources director had an issue with the VP of new Business having pictures of his boyfriend. Never mind the fact she gave preferentual hiring in her department to fellow church goers. She bitched about liberal opression when the CEO told her to basically STFU.

Conservatives claim oppression when they can't hang Crosses and what not. Example that asshole in *Shock* Alabama who installed the 10 commandments in the Court House during the middle of the night. Clearly violates the seperation clause and yet they tried to give him an out saying why don't we use other Religions as well. He was against it and I heard him talk about oppression as well.

Sorry but people telling you to FO is not oppression.

I love the way all the leftists around here seem to think that if a liberal employer/teacher or whatever wrongs a conservative employee/student, then it's just an example of a bad employer/teacher, but for some reason if the roles are reversed, suddenly it is symbolic of the "fact" that all conservatives are rednecks and against freedom of speech?

Beautiful logic.

Anyways as to the original topic, I think that the employer had the right to fire her (as the employer, he has the right to fire her if she won't take the sticker off her car), and by what I read in that article, he wasn't telling her who to vote for, he simply told her to remove the sticker from her car.

Personally I wouldn't do that if I were an employer, however I take the employer's side on this, as he wasn't asking her to vote for Bush, nor was he asking her not to support bush, but merely asking her to remove the sticker from her car (which was most likely parked on his property I might add)It is poor form to generalize. Not "all" conservatives are highly educated princes of priveledge and not "all" leftists are wild eyed, acid addled hippies. Not "all" leftists have jumped up and used this employer as an example of facism hiding itself under the lamb's skin of conservativsm. "Some" would be a more reasoned reference.

As for this particular circumstance, there is not enough information at hand to render a proper judgement on the matter. It may well be that the woman was unprofessional, obstinate, disrespectful and confrontational. It may well be that the other person in his office was a client. Maybe they are both louts. But generally if they live in a vacumn and if this was an isolated incident the employer is wrong and must give sufficient reason for her dismissal other than her bumper sticker displeased him.

Thats true....an "at will" job can be terminated without reason by the employer. They do not need a reason. He could have fired her because he did not like the color of her hair.

wow. that sounds like working at an agency.

i see that there are a bunch of liberals in this debate, but now that perrien left, is there any consevatives out there to continue the debate? If not i'm gonna leave and come back later.

Oh come on. Take up the gauntlet.

Any "reasonable" argument shall be debated.

Our friend Perrien simple take trollish debate style and gets it tossed back.

You go personal and the debate degrades fast. Keep the insults out and most of the people here will keep in civil even though they think you are nuts. ;)

Rich people don't need tax cuts.

Hey now!

Don't be dissin trickle down econcomics!

You know the Rich people take care of the poor and middle classes!
[/sarcasm]

Sorry but people telling you to FO is not oppression.[/QUOTE]

Got to love the word "oppression" and how it's often used - reminds me of a scene from the Life of Brian.

- Irrelevant I know.

The last I heard there was a mob guy that said he was buried under one of the sections of Giant's Stadium. They said they were going to look, but I never read the outcome.....
Myth Busters (A&E) did the leg work & came up dry. He is actually in a spare pier footing buried under my lawn.

Yes I agree, if there are any conservatives out there who wish to have a civil debate with us, Im sure that we will be happy to oblige

Myth Busters (A&E) did the leg work & came up dry. He is actually in a spare pier footing buried under my lawn.

Ahhhh thank you! :)

Ahem. I'm from Alabama, have you ever even been here?
Yes, 27 years ago. Has it changed all that much?

So, whats the new subject gonna be on? because im more or less lost... :confused:

This is the modern day US of A. What do you expect? And it's spreading in other countries... sadly.

No this is from other countries, stinking dictatorships. This used to be a country that at least tried to act like a free country.

I had a right wing type bosses but he KNEW better than to push his views on me at work, because I used to be the state rep for our local ACLU. It was an insurance office and the rule was NO one had stickers,and NO one was to talk politics at work. If he started, I'd justvery nicely, but firmly say 'Talking politics at work is kind of unproffessional in our line of work,we never know who is going to be our customer, and it's just better not to talk abut these things....' That was all I had to say as a rule,
Even though he was an extremist, he had manners at least, really and he usually did leave his politics at home. I left mine at home. I am older than my former boss, and it was easy to kind of pull 'age rank' subtly so I went ahead and did it very gently. He'd usually go 'yeah you're right a commie Democrat's money is just as green as a Republican's money!' I'd go 'yep!' That was that, it stayed polite.


If the boss puts political messages like that in the pay packet he is harrasssing his employees politically and believe me he won't make converts to his cause!

While I disagree with most right wing views I was perfectly able to work with my former boss.

He was able to be courteous, and I respect that about him.
We've managed to maintain a decent relationship, he's still my stock broker.
In fact, if I find myself really angry with someone who'se views seriously annoy me, I try and remember that this boss, and I could disagree, but still work together and still make money.

Unfortunately certain parts of the insurance industry were very badly affected by the September 11th attacks. That is one reason I'm no longer I no longer work with this man.
He hated haveing anyone say they worked for him, he prefered people say that they worked with him.

This poor lady's rotten boss gives business men, bosses, and conservatives a bad name. It's sad, because a very important line was crossed.

Her stinking boss did this because he thought he could get away with it.

Instead of crying about it, she should write a letter to the ACLU and she should sue that sorry excuse for a man until she's HIS boss and then teach him how it feels to have to live your life kissing @$&!

It's not like this place of employment was an insurance office or a law office,or a doctor's office, places which must make the effort to be 'neutral', and I'm sure the boss has his Bush-Cheney sticker on his vehicle.

Actually, one thing I've observed is sucessful business people, what ever their political persuasion, are not the type who fire people over such matters, or who yell at people in that way.

Either no one has sticker or anyone who wants one should be left be to display what ever stickers they want.

Yeah, who did they think was burried under the giants stadium?

I think it is a double standard and will continue to think so until normal people agree both are wrong. I'm still waiting for the appology from Kerry who was standing ten feet away from the incident. Bush was nowhere near this "Firing", but liberals act like he ran the lady over personally with a truck. Notice a problem here?Unless I missed something, no one blamed Bush for the firing. I certainly didn't. Most people have placed the blame squarely where it belongs--the idiot boss.

Technically, the car is also his property. He paid her his money so she could buy it. I think he should have taken her car away as well.
Irony, just this side of flamebaiting?

No it was her money. Although I like the concept that I can pay a debt and still own the money. Do you think the bank will fall for it?

Originally Posted by Slap Happy Lunatics
1. A government, no matter how small or local, cannot use religious imagery at all. It is a violation of law.

2. Employment and slavery are not equal states. Here in NYC you do not fire a person for their political views unless you want your former employee to take over your company.

i have always been puzzled about this: theres so much hoopla about prayer in school, religion in the workplace and all that. quote number one is what made me think to ask everyones thoughts on this: if its such an issue for prayer in school, religion in the workplace. a government using imagery -then why does the US government put "in God we trust" on their currency? is that not contradictory?

quote number two-thats the truth!

If Perrien's theory is true, then seceretly our government is comunist with a shell of democracy for show. That perrien guy was a fool.

Irony, just this side of flamebaiting?

No it was her money. Although I like the concept that I can pay a debt and still own the money. Do you think the bank will fall for it?

LOL

Well, it is politics at its dirtiest. Don't accuse me of letting my Bush preference get into this, as I know of Bushies who lost their jobs over Bush-related things.
But for all cases, I'm not worried. Is this guy a cheapo? Most likely. But why prosecute him? I'll only get worried if campaigning gets to the days of the mid 1800s, that is spreading rumors of scandal, corruption, and inciting political riots (even though a few Republicans did riot in New York).

Three things bother me about this thread. In no particular order:

1) That Malime Kashia quoted the Freedom of Speech as being under the 2nd ammendment.

2) The claim that the employer told her who to vote for. He didn't. He just told her she couldn't advertise her choice on his private property. I saw no mention at any point in the article of "Vote Bush, or else". Just "Get rid of the Kerry sticker".

3) The people who claim private enterprise falls under the first ammendment.

So far as I know it, the below is the wording of the First Ammendment.




Now, maybe I'm just slow (certainly wouldn't be unbelievable) but the part that catches my eye is this: Congress shall make no law. I interpret two things from this. First, the ammendment is intended to apply to congress, not to individual (non-government) citizens. I assume this based on the complete lack of mention of any group or person other than congress in the ammendment.

Or more simply put, it does not state "No person shall prohibit blah blah blah...".

Secondly, I see what I feel is a fairly direct explanation of what congress will not do. It will not pass a law which interferes with the freedom of speech, or the press, or peaceful assembly, or to petition the government.

That's what I take away from the first ammendment.

Now, putting what I see aside, I tried to find where there is any mention that a person on private property cannot control what you bring on to that property. He is not controlling her thoughts or opinions, he is telling her a bumper sticker on the back of her car is not acceptable.

Given that he is not congress - nor any form of government - and that he is not enacting any law, but exercising his legal right to control what employees bring on to his property, I fail to see how the wording of the first ammendment grants her any rights in this situation.

So if any of the people who believe she is covered by the first ammendment could explain how it applies, being so kind as to point out the specific part(s) which reference the limitations on actions of a privately owned enterprise, I would be very grateful.

That isn't even to say that I am certain what he did is legal. However, I fail to see how the first ammendment grants her any legal protection in this case.

Case Law

If Perrien's theory is true, then seceretly our government is comunist with a shell of democracy for show. That perrien guy was a fool.

Nice of you to wait 20 minutes after I left to point out your opinion.

I'll chalk it up to you flamebaiting

No, Perrien, if I have something to say to you, I'm not afraid to say it to your face. The reason I'm bringing it up now is because someone else brought it up again and I failed to coment on it last time. But its nice to see that your back. Now the debate can continue, but this time Perrien, try to keep it cival.

No, Perrien, if I have something to say to you, i'm not afraid to say it to your face. The reason I'm bringing it up now is because someone else brought it up againg and I failed to coment on it last time. But its nice to see that your back. Now the debate can continue, but this time Perrien, keep it cival.

Actually, I just came in here to order Chinese food, I'm going to watch the game, although I don't like either team.

Have fun, be back after the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slap Happy Lunatics
1. A government, no matter how small or local, cannot use religious imagery at all. It is a violation of law.

2. Employment and slavery are not equal states. Here in NYC you do not fire a person for their political views unless you want your former employee to take over your company.

Then get rid of all of those religious names of cities while your at it. I find San Jose, Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego and the hundreds of others disgusting. We should also remove the governemtn offices in all of the missionary style buildings as well.

That damn seal had been there for over 100 years, but now we finally got it! Ha...while we are at it we need ro rename San Francisco, I nominate "Gay Bay", that'll make the masses happy.

I don't care one way or another. However you were asked to cite an example of the religious persecution of conservatives and you provided the example of the city's seal. That is like the judge with the ten commandments. Government is constrained, individuals are not. No one has forced individuals to stop wearing their crosses or other talismans. The issue is a red herring used to mobilize the masses who swear anyone not like them is going to tear down their churches. It's all BS - It's all about a grab for political power. It's more than a little weak to proffer chimera as a justification to anything, then try to duck the drubbing you deserve for trying..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slap Happy Lunatics




I don't care one way or another. However you were asked to cite an example of the religious persecution of conservatives and you provided the example of the city's seal. That is like the judge with the ten commandments. Government is constrained, individuals are not. No one has forced individuals to stop wearing their crosses or other talismans. The issue is a red herring used to mobilize the masses who swear anyone not like them is going to tear down their churches. It's all BS - It's all about a grab for political power. It's more than a little weak to proffer chimera as a justification to anything, then try to duck the drubbing you deserve for trying..

do not, and i mean do NOT, try and talk about roy moore unless you know the story in depth, roy moore is UNDISPUTABLY a religious nutcase who should never have been in a political position abnd especially a judge (he once told a gay woman who was trying to get custody for her kids from her abusive husband that she couldnt have them because homosexuals are inherently evil) and he is a disgrce to his religion and humanity as a whole and is a leech on alabama

Horse by another name is still a horse bonehead.
Appropriation of dues and solicitation of donations are not even on the same ranch. You said dues were appropriated for this purpose. It is nowhere near the same since a member either knowing gives or withholds their support. Even a jackass like yourself should be able to see that.

Act like a big boy now and admit you were mistaken.

Judging by what the flyer said about what Bush's tax cuts did for that company, I'm thinking that her boss is a puppet of George W. Bush.
congratulations sherlock

As to the city name argument, the Supreme Court has said that things with religious significance can have a place in secular government as long as they serve some secular purpose or are in context with other historical figures. Thus, there's a mural at the Supreme Court that depicts Moses with the Ten Commandments, alongside Hammurabi, King John with Magna Carta, and other historical figures. The names of cities would certainly fall within this context as historical as well as religious.

People with Nader stickers on their car are certainly not welcome on my property

Intersting choice of word. Got something against gays?That would make no sense since I'm gay. :rolleyes:

I am making the point that in an overwhelming majority of states, you can get fired because of your sexual orientation and you would not have recourse.

Originally Posted by Slap Happy Lunatics
1. A government, no matter how small or local, cannot use religious imagery at all. It is a violation of law.

2. Employment and slavery are not equal states. Here in NYC you do not fire a person for their political views unless you want your former employee to take over your company.

i have always been puzzled about this: theres so much hoopla about prayer in school, religion in the workplace and all that. quote number one is what made me think to ask everyones thoughts on this: if its such an issue for prayer in school, religion in the workplace. a government using imagery -then why does the US government put "in God we trust" on their currency? is that not contradictory?

quote number two-thats the truth!

That's a whole 'nother thread or six right there. Short & sweet? The Supreme Court rendered a decision that the First Ammendment to The Constitution (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/) should be interperted to mean ANY reference to religion. The argument goes on endlessly.

time to write letters to the editor, my god im so tired of all the ignorant anti-kerry bullshit i could snap some ignorant pro-bush dumbfuck's neck
How about you kiss this pro-Bush dumbfuck's ass, and just try to actually do any of the shit you talk about in the safety of anonymity on the net. Now go back to your Mother and apologize for growing up to be the asshole you are, despite her best efforts.

What that guy did was wrong, it was stupid, and I would be pissed as hell if someone did that because of a bumper sticker I had on my car. However, Alabama has never been known for being anything approaching a liberal state, and not many conservatives act like that. Besides, there are plenty of intolerant liberals too, i.e. those who constantly flame religion or conservatives on the forum, so I tend not to take it too seriously if something like that happens.

And before any Bush supporters start defending this mouth-breather, imagine the stink you'd be raising if you were given the choice between your Bush/Cheney bumpersticker or your job. Then try to defend it.

Do you think all Bush supporters are so narrowminded that they'd actually defend the fucktard that fired the lady?

do not, and i mean do NOT, try and talk about roy moore unless you know the story in depth, roy moore is UNDISPUTABLY a religious nutcase who should never have been in a political position abnd especially a judge (he once told a gay woman who was trying to get custody for her kids from her abusive husband that she couldnt have them because homosexuals are inherently evil) and he is a disgrce to his religion and humanity as a whole and is a leech on alabama
I was merely using that incident - and the resulting decision - to highlight the seperation of church and state. How you saw that as being in support of the man is beyond me. He crossed the line of his individual rights when he caused that monument to be placed outside a government building. (Had he put it in his front yard then he would be within his rights.)

I will not contest your presentation of his judicial conduct - many judges are unfit <shrugs>.. I had a case in front of Judge Judy in Family Court in NYC with disasterous results. I have strong feelings regarding her fitness as anything, including her membership in the human race. But that is another conversation entirely.

Originally Posted by Slap Happy Lunatics
i have always been puzzled about this: theres so much hoopla about prayer in school, religion in the workplace and all that. quote number one is what made me think to ask everyones thoughts on this: if its such an issue for prayer in school, religion in the workplace. a government using imagery -then why does the US government put "in God we trust" on their currency? is that not contradictory?

Think for one second. To get rid of all the currency that has "In God We Trust" on it, you would have to recall every single item of currency in the US and replace it with new bills. It would cost billions, and would take years. Therefore, lets not bother with something so trivial, and get on with our lives.

Think for one second. To get rid of all the currency that has "In God We Trust" on it, you would have to recall every single item of currency in the US and replace it with new bills. It would cost billions, and would take years. Therefore, lets not bother with something so trivial, and get on with our lives.
thats a lie, just remove the law REQUIRING it and stop producing it with in god we trust on it, it would eventually phase out. you do realise they introduced new 100, 20, and 50 dollar bills right

I was merely using that incident - and the resulting decision - to highlight the seperation of church and state. How you saw that as being in support of the man is beyond me.

I will not contest your presentation of his judicial conduct - many judges are unfit <shrugs>.. I had a case in front of Judge Judy in Family Court in NYC. I have strong feelings regarding her fitness as anything, including her membership in the human race. But that is another conversation entirely.
just making a point

thats a lie, just remove the law REQUIRING it and stop producing it with in god we trust on it, it would eventually phase out. you do realise they introduced new 100, 20, and 50 dollar bills right
HEY! You stole my line! ;)

just making a point
I happen to agree he is a whacko. Just that is was beside the point.

At will contracts have their limits. You cannot fire someone "for any reason."

If that reason violates US law, it is not permissable.

You cannot fire someone cause they won't kill your wife etc etc.

I would say that if she can get any kind of collaborating evidence, she may have a case, as an employer cannot force someone to vote in a particular manner. I don't believe an employer can force an employee to remove a bumber sticker from a car because he finds it objectionable. This is shakier ground, however.

The issue isn't that he forced her to vote one way, but that he demanded the removal of a bumper sticker from her private property that I assume had nothing to do with her job.

If it is found that he was trying to influence her vote, and she has evidence to back that up, she may have a case.

BTW, I am basing this on research I did on at will employment contracts for an employer in the 1990s, so I do have some experience in the matter, although not enough to say definatively one way or the other. I hope the guy loses his shirt.

im out for the night everyone, have fun arguing! :P

A student at the University of Northern Colorado told legislators that a required essay topic on her criminology mid-term exam was: “Explain why George Bush is a war criminal.” When she submitted an essay explaining why Saddam Hussein was a war criminal instead, she was given an “F.”

I can speak to this one.

Haven't you ever taken a course that included debate? I did that kind of thing in middle school...

In debate, you're often - roughly 50% of the time, one would imagine - called upon to defend a position you don't necessarily agree with. It's important to remember that they aren't telling you to believe it; just defend it. It's something you should know how to do in any case.

No doubt they were taught (it being a criminology class) all about war crimes. There is a case to be made that George Bush is a war criminal. The essay was asking for this case to be made.

Imagine a formal debate setting in a class. One group is supposed to defend the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the other to attack it. If someone in the attack group defended it during their turn, they would get a low grade on the task, because they didn't follow the assignment- the assignment being to defend the stated belief, regardless of personal opinion.

This is an exact parallel to what happened with this student. That F was well deserved. I would say the exact same thing if a liberal were asked to justify the Iraq invasion. It's an exercise, nothing more.

At will contracts have their limits. You cannot fire someone "for any reason."

If that reason violates US law, it is not permissable.

You cannot fire someone cause they won't kill your wife etc etc.

I would say that if she can get any kind of collaborating evidence, she may have a case, as an employer cannot force someone to vote in a particular manner. I don't believe an employer can force an employee to remove a bumber sticker from a car because he finds it objectionable. This is shakier ground, however.

The issue isn't that he forced her to vote one way, but that he demanded the removal of a bumper sticker from her private property that I assume had nothing to do with her job.

If it is found that he was trying to influence her vote, and she has evidence to back that up, she may have a case.

BTW, I am basing this on research I did on at will employment contracts for an employer in the 1990s, so I do have some experience in the matter, although not enough to say definatively one way or the other. I hope the guy loses his shirt.
Unless a sticker is abhorrent to community standards such as; FU*K BUSH, is hate speech such as KILL BUSH or speech that is considered fighting words like, ALABAMA EATS BUSH'S S#!T NUTS AND ALL it is unassailable as far as her first ammendment rights are concerned.

Do you think all Bush supporters are so narrowminded that they'd actually defend the fucktard that fired the lady?
Not all of them. In fact, elsewhere on the thread, I expressed great delight at the number of people who have felt the same way I did. Sorry if I was a tad defensive in my first post--it's a habit from long months of being hammered for retarded reasons.

Thanks. I know we're often on opposite sides, but this is one of those instances that just reeks all the way around.
I agree. Firing her because of a bumper sticker is wrong.

However, having said that, the absolute worst thing the woman did was confront her boss...the owner of the business where she used to work.

I reckon from the article, the company is privately-owned. That means, people don't have a "right" to work there, they have a job at the owners' pleasure, and they lose the job at the owners' desire. Capitalism and supply-demand in action.

If you are working at a private company, and the owner finds a reason to be less than pleased with you (and it does NOT have to be work-related,) guess what, you're gone.

And Perrien, when you get back from the game, can you provide some documentation on the University of Northern Colorado story? I googled it, and all I could find as a source for the claim was David Horowitz, and let's just say that I've found him willing to take liberties with the truth in the past.

I agree. Firing her because of a bumper sticker is wrong.

However, having said that, the absolute worst thing the woman did was confront her boss...the owner of the business where she used to work.

I reckon from the article, the company is privately-owned. That means, people don't have a "right" to work there, they have a job at the owners' pleasure, and they lose the job at the owners' desire. Capitalism and supply-demand in action.

If you are working at a private company, and the owner finds a reason to be less than pleased with you (and it does NOT have to be work-related,) guess what, you're gone.

Yup. Private vs Public company are 2 different animals. It also depends on the state and the laws. In California, you can't simply fire a person because they say died their hair orange or went bald. However, you do have the ability to terminate employment in the first 90 days without any reason.

People can argue the merits of capitolism and or California is a commie state but I agree with that attitude especially with the blantent disparity of performance measurement. For example, Golden Parachutes. I think they should be outlawed as it is abused and it rewards failure.

There was once a time were the big boss got the big money for making the big decisions. More then once I have seen the big boss get the big money for simply having the title.

I read one company was basically driven into the ground by the Presidents incompetance and yet he "left" with a 5 million dollar check.

Joe nobdy screws up and he gets two weeks and there are many that would argue he shouldn't get anything.

Luckily the guy in Alabama will probably fail as a business owner. Guys that do stupid things like that do many stupid things and the system does weed them out eventually.

Goodnight to all!

Yup. Private vs Public company are 2 different animals. It also depends on the state and the laws. In California, you can't simply fire a person because they say died their hair orange or went bald. However, you do have the ability to terminate employment in the first 90 days without any reason.

People can argue the merits of capitolism and or California is a commie state but I agree with that attitude especially with the blantent disparity of performance measurement. For example, Golden Parachutes. I think they should be outlawed as it is abused and it rewards failure.

There was once a time were the big boss got the big money for making the big decisions. More then once I have seen the big boss get the big money for simply having the title.

I read one company was basically driven into the ground by the Presidents incompetance and yet he "left" with a 5 million dollar check.

Joe nobdy screws up and he gets two weeks and there are many that would argue he shouldn't get anything.

Luckily the guy in Alabama will probably fail as a business owner. Guys that do stupid things like that do many stupid things and the system does weed them out eventually.
Precisely.

I truly believe that the woman has every right to have her bumper sticker.

I also truly believe that, as long as the company isn't publicly owned, the owner has every right to hire and terminate employees as he sees fit.

I also believe the owner is a moron for firing the woman over something so inane.

Precisely.

I truly believe that the woman has every right to have her bumper sticker.

I also truly believe that, as long as the company isn't publicly owned, the owner has every right to hire and terminate employees as he sees fit.

I also believe the owner is a moron for firing the woman over something so inane.
as he sees fit should be intelligent, political affiliation should not be a firing point unless the punkass lemming told her to remove it

I can speak to this one.

Haven't you ever taken a course that included debate? I did that kind of thing in middle school...

In debate, you're often - roughly 50% of the time, one would imagine - called upon to defend a position you don't necessarily agree with. It's important to remember that they aren't telling you to believe it; just defend it. It's something you should know how to do in any case.

No doubt they were taught (it being a criminology class) all about war crimes. There is a case to be made that George Bush is a war criminal. The essay was asking for this case to be made.

Imagine a formal debate setting in a class. One group is supposed to defend the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the other to attack it. If someone in the attack group defended it during their turn, they would get a low grade on the task, because they didn't follow the assignment- the assignment being to defend the stated belief, regardless of personal opinion.

This is an exact parallel to what happened with this student. That F was well deserved. I would say the exact same thing if a liberal were asked to justify the Iraq invasion. It's an exercise, nothing more.


With todays climate, I would call it irresponsible at best. This has nothing to do with controversy, this is pure and simple indoctrination.

Three things bother me about this thread. In no particular order:

1) That Malime Kashia quoted the Freedom of Speech as being under the 2nd ammendment.

2) The claim that the employer told her who to vote for. He didn't. He just told her she couldn't advertise her choice on his private property. I saw no mention at any point in the article of "Vote Bush, or else". Just "Get rid of the Kerry sticker".

3) The people who claim private enterprise falls under the first ammendment.

So far as I know it, the below is the wording of the First Ammendment.




Now, maybe I'm just slow (certainly wouldn't be unbelievable) but the part that catches my eye is this: Congress shall make no law. I interpret two things from this. First, the ammendment is intended to apply to congress, not to individual (non-government) citizens. I assume this based on the complete lack of mention of any group or person other than congress in the ammendment.

Or more simply put, it does not state "No person shall prohibit blah blah blah...".

Secondly, I see what I feel is a fairly direct explanation of what congress will not do. It will not pass a law which interferes with the freedom of speech, or the press, or peaceful assembly, or to petition the government.

That's what I take away from the first ammendment.

Now, putting what I see aside, I tried to find where there is any mention that a person on private property cannot control what you bring on to that property. He is not controlling her thoughts or opinions, he is telling her a bumper sticker on the back of her car is not acceptable.

Given that he is not congress - nor any form of government - and that he is not enacting any law, but exercising his legal right to control what employees bring on to his property, I fail to see how the wording of the first ammendment grants her any rights in this situation.

So if any of the people who believe she is covered by the first ammendment could explain how it applies, being so kind as to point out the specific part(s) which reference the limitations on actions of a privately owned enterprise, I would be very grateful.

That isn't even to say that I am certain what he did is legal. However, I fail to see how the first ammendment grants her any legal protection in this case.

Your analysis is flawed. Not the least reasons for which is that it is a strict constructivist argument, and therefore limited in its scope when the law is clearly non-constructivist on the First Amendment. It doesn't mention the arts, but they are protected. It doesn't mention pornography, but it is protected.

Second, civil rights violations are not limited to government action. See hate crimes legislation, any number of prosecutions in the South during the Civil Rights movement, etc.

The law actually does protect corporations as businesses as people. Not that it should, but it does. A corporation's right to donate to a political party is covered under the First Amendment. Corporations are also protected under the 14th Amendment as individuals. That's why you need a warrant to search a place of business.

And Perrien, when you get back from the game, can you provide some documentation on the University of Northern Colorado story? I googled it, and all I could find as a source for the claim was David Horowitz, and let's just say that I've found him willing to take liberties with the truth in the past.

No more liberties than he spent Christmas in Cambodia, but that doesn't matter now does it. You want me to do your research for you as well? Consider it faith based, God told me that it happened. I live in Colorado, been following the story for several months.

as he sees fit should be intelligent, political affiliation should not be a firing point unless the punkass lemming told her to remove it
You don't quite get it, and I am not surprised in the least bit.

The woman worked FOR the idiot owner. As such, she worked at HIS wish, and for as long as he wished.

Q. Is a bumper sticker you disagree with (not even an offensive one) reason enough to fire someone?
(all together now) A. No.

Now for the Bonus round:
Q. Is a fight over a bumper sticker worth losing your job?
(all together again) A. No.

Give yourself a pat in the back for every question you answered correctly.

For my 100th post I would like to say the following:

1. Thank goodness (atheist) I'm an American living in this country, although there are many great countries out there, I love this one with all my heart.

2. Regardless of how retarded many of my fellow Americans are on here, they can throw language and verbage all day long and not go around killing people who disagree with them. So regardless of how toxic the forums get, it is still 100% better than what some people have to deal with.

3. Thank goodness I didn't get banned last night, as I would have really really been pissed off lol

Thank you :cool:

No more liberties than he spent Christmas in Cambodia, but that doesn't matter now does it. You want me to do your research for you as well? Consider it faith based, God told me that it happened. I live in Colorado, been following the story for several months.Actually, far more liberties than that. Horowitz makes Michael Moore look like a Fair Witness. I researched it as best I could in a short time, and that's the only place I've found anything about it--it's always linked to Horowitz in some form. There's no discussion of the professor, of the student, of any detail that would make researching it possible. It's always just "Horowitz said..." and sorry, that's not good enough for me. It's not good enough when anyone does it.

Actually, far more liberties than that. Horowitz makes Michael Moore look like a Fair Witness. I researched it as best I could in a short time, and that's the only place I've found anything about it--it's always linked to Horowitz in some form. There's no discussion of the professor, of the student, of any detail that would make researching it possible. It's always just "Horowitz said..." and sorry, that's not good enough for me. It's not good enough when anyone does it.

We actually have had meetings here at the local government level, sorry they don't post it online. Want me to send you the Denver Post?

I've been gone for a few hours and it seems alot has happened (been said) since then. Can anyone fill me in?

You don't quite get it, and I am not surprised in the least bit.

The woman worked FOR the idiot owner. As such, she worked at HIS wish, and for as long as he wished.

Q. Is a bumper sticker you disagree with (not even an offensive one) reason enough to fire someone?
(all together now) A. No.

Now for the Bonus round:
Q. Is a fight over a bumper sticker worth losing your job?
(all together again) A. No.

Give yourself a pat in the back for every question you answered correctly.

Actually, some would disagree with that. My boss is an asshole, but if he dictated to me how I should live my personal life and tried to force me to change my political views, I'd walk out.

Morals and beliefs > money in my eyes.

OH NO Goed is here!!!!

I'll get banned for sure now LOL

Actually, some would disagree with that. My boss is an asshole, but if he dictated to me how I should live my personal life and tried to force me to change my political views, I'd walk out.

Morals and beliefs > money in my eyes.
Just remember, "morals" and "beliefs" aren't accepted in stores, and can't be exchanged for food or services.

OH NO Goed is here!!!!

I'll get banned for sure now LOL


Who's winning/won the game? God I hope Carolina, I hate Green Bay.

And Perrien, when you get back from the game, can you provide some documentation on the University of Northern Colorado story? I googled it, and all I could find as a source for the claim was David Horowitz, and let's just say that I've found him willing to take liberties with the truth in the past.

A far right pundit taking liberties with the truth? NO! What about St. Coulter and Father Limbaugh? Are they liars too?

Oh, my world is shattered.

Anyways... I've seen Horowitz talk. He's all polemic and no epistemology. It appears very difficult for conservative pundits to actually hold a consistent line of logical reasoning without dumping in made-up facts. Except for Georgie Anne Geyer. She's great.

Who's winning/won the game? God I hope Carolina, I hate Green Bay.

Green Bay killed them, good game though

Who's winning/won the game? God I hope Carolina, I hate Green Bay.
Green Bay won.

We actually have had meetings here at the local government level, sorry they don't post it online. Want me to send you the Denver Post?
Okay--thanks for the tip about the Denver Post at least. I went there, and though they have limited archives, I was able to access two articles about the hearings going on in the State Senate. The allegation you mention wasn't talked about in those articles, but two others were, and if they're true, then the teachers need to be fired, no question--except for the biological sciences professor. He's right to say that the subjects discussed in his class will be strictly scientific.

But you're dreaming if you think that kind of behavior--again, assuming it's accurate and not blown out of proportion--is commonplace, you're dreaming. I taught at the University of Arkansas for four years while in grad school, and if I had come remotely close to trying anything like that, I'd have been canned in a heartbeat, and I was friends with my boss. We took objectivity very, very seriously, and I gave excellent grades to students who had political views that made me cringe at times, because their work was solid, while I gave bad grades to students who did sloppy work, no matter how much I agreed with their sentiment.

Most teachers are professionals, and are proud of it, with good reason. The teachers described in those articles--assuming the accusations are accurate--were not professional, and are the exception rather than the rule.

I read the article, they didn't seem to get the employer's side of the story.
If the story is accurate, then ya, the employer was a complete asshole, I just don't like to judge prematurely (whether it was legal, I'm not familiar enough with labor law to answer that).

On a wholly different topic. I insulted Chess Squares (called him a d-bag) a few days ago. I was in the middle of a hangover/drunk (I'm not sure which NOW), but I still feel bad that I sank to that level. I apologized before but he may have been ignoring me by then and not seen it. So maybe someone could just pass it on. I don't agree with a lot of what the guy says, but I feel bad about calling him that anyway and would just like him to know (whether he cares or not) that I regretted it.

Wow, 17 pages before I even get a chance to weigh in.

Depending on the employers side of the story (and Im inclined to believe the woman, she has no reason to lie that I can see yet) this boils down to what people are willing to do for what they believe in.

He was willing to lose a valued worker over a piece of paper not worth 1/10th of an hour of her pay.

She was willing to lose a job over her right to support the candidate of her choice.

People like that employer are proof for Chess Logic that republicans/conservatives are "bad" people. While he tends to lump everyone together in drastically oversimplified groups, I do agree with him in this one case that the employer really f*cked up.

Wow, 17 pages before I even get a chance to weigh in.

Depending on the employers side of the story (and Im inclined to believe the woman, she has no reason to lie that I can see yet) this boils down to what people are willing to do for what they believe in.

He was willing to lose a valued worker over a piece of paper not worth 1/10th of an hour of her pay.

She was willing to lose a job over her right to support the candidate of her choice.

People like that employer are proof for Chess Logic that republicans/conservatives are "bad" people. While he tends to lump everyone together in drastically oversimplified groups, I do agree with him in this one case that the employer really f*cked up.
You snooze, you lose. :D

Hope you didn't wade through all 17 pages of it. Your opinion is about what most people's have been--bad move by the employer, especially if the word spreads.

You snooze, you lose. :D

Hope you didn't wade through all 17 pages of it. Your opinion is about what most people's have been--bad move by the employer, especially if the word spreads.

I was way to distracted by the various gun related threads.. and the SG-1 monday on SciFi channel.

While I agree with the fact that the employer is a complete tard... (appologies to all 'tards out there) he doesnt represent all of the right. Just the worst part of the right.

Just remember, "morals" and "beliefs" aren't accepted in stores, and can't be exchanged for food or services.

True, so how about this.

morals and beliefs > food and/or services :p

I'd rather starve to death then turn my back on what I believe.

I was way to distracted by the various gun related threads.. and the SG-1 monday on SciFi channel.

While I agree with the fact that the employer is a complete tard... (appologies to all 'tards out there) he doesnt represent all of the right. Just the worst part of the right.
Yeah. I hope I didn't imply anywhere that this guy was representative of all conservatives or Republicans. I don't think he is. If he was, we'd probably be on the brink of civil war right now, instead of in the middle of a contentious election.

People like that employer are proof for Chess Logic that republicans/conservatives are "bad" people. While he tends to lump everyone together in drastically oversimplified groups, I do agree with him in this one case that the employer really f*cked up.

I am a conservative and a Republican! However, there is a couple of things that were actually pointed out!

1) Where is the Boss's side of the story? I don't see it
2) Where was the car parked? Was it on his ground or not? That is another part to this story that we don't know.

We don't have all the facts.

Ok! Now that I have said that, this is what I will say again.

As I stated earlier in this post, I am a Republican and a Conservative. If it turns out that she was fired because of this bumber sticker, I for one do not support this! So no, not all conservatives/Republicans are "bad"! I'm not. I DO NOT support the Boss's firing base on this alone.

This is the modern day US of A. What do you expect? And it's spreading in other countries... sadly.

If it happened in Europe (i mean the EEA not Russia which technically is in Europe) the boss, who according to the article is a LAWYER for fuxake, he would get his arse kicked from here to whereever. I hope the US litigation and justice for all thing gives her 10 million dollars when she sues him.

I am a conservative and a Republican! However, there is a couple of things that were actually pointed out!

1) Where is the Boss's side of the story? I don't see it
2) Where was the car parked? Was it on his ground or not? That is another part to this story that we don't know.

We don't have all the facts.


what does it matter? what can his side of the story possibly be to excuse or even explain his behaviour? And even if the sticker was on the bumper on her car on his parking lot, he doesn't even have the right to tell her to park on the street, let alone fire her.

what does it matter? what can his side of the story possibly be to excuse or even explain his behaviour? And even if the sticker was on the bumper on her car on his parking lot, he doesn't even have the right to tell her to park on the street, let alone fire her.

We gotta have his side of the story. That is proper Journalism. Since we only have her side of the story, we cannot come to a fair conclusion as to what actually happened.

Actually he does in regards if its parked on his land. If the area where the car is parked belonged to him then he can dictate the rules of the parking lot because it is Private Property. If it was parked on the street and it belongs to the city and he tells her he can't have that sticker, then she has a case because its on public property. Now as to telling her where to park, he actually has that ability if its his lot. If it is his lot and can allow or disallow anyone he wants from parking there. As to firing her, he has full right to fire whoever he wants but I will say this, If he fired her for no other reason than the bumber sticker, then she could have a case in court depending on where that car is parked! That, as I said before, is the law. Public=city/government owned and Private=Individually owned.

Unfortunately that is how the law works though jury trials are another matter entirely. LOL!!!

Personally though, I think it was idiotic of the boss to fire her over a bumber sticker anyway.