NationStates Jolt Archive

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

"Totally Radical".

I'd be amazed and then question whether or not internal war was on between Sharon and Bush. With Iraq out of the picture though, the Middle East wouldn't be very strong in a war verses Israel.

I'd be confused

I would love it, then I would hope that Isreal blew up all of the Arab nations and took them over. Since the US was not funding or supporting Isreal, I would expect them to shut up about it too.

Go go Isreal nukes!!!

I'd be confused too. But if i were sober, I might have an actual opinion. Such as: well, Israel's certainly got it's problem, but the British are to blame for fucking the Palestinians over. Or something. I dunno... That's just assuming I were sober, and that's kinda hard to do.

Depends on why they did it. If they did it because the Arab world gave us an ultimatum--stop funding Israel or you'll never get another drop of our oil--then I'd be upset. It actually surprises me that that hasn't happened yet.

If they did it because there was no chance of Israel ever acting in good faith with the Palestinians, then I'd be more favorable toward the idea. In other words, we ought to use our funding--of both sides--as a stick to get the two groups together to hammer out a reasonable compromise.

Don't anyone give me shit about who has done what to whom and who had a chance for peace and passed it up. There are no angels here--both sides have treated the other shamefully and there are times when I've thought that perhaps the best solution would be to give everyone in the area 90 days to pack up and leave, and then nuke the whole place till it glows. A sort of "if you two can't get along, then no one's gonna have it"solution. Neutron bombs, so the "holy places" would still be standing, just no one would be able to get close to them, and more importantly, no one would be able to claim possession of them.

That's really what's at the base of all this crap, after all. Three major religions lay claim to the area as holy to them and no other, and until we get past this idea that there is one true religion and God is gonna bust a cap in the collective asses of everyone who doesn't believe one certain way, we're never gonna get past the problems there.

And the fact that President Bush, House Majority Leader Tom Delay and Attorney General Ashcroft all belong to a "christian" belief system that says New Jerusalem won't reappear until the Jews control all the Holy Land again doesn't help matters. No wonder neither side trusts us.

Depends on why they did it. If they did it because the Arab world gave us an ultimatum--stop funding Israel or you'll never get another drop of our oil--then I'd be upset. It actually surprises me that that hasn't happened yet.

If they did it because there was no chance of Israel ever acting in good faith with the Palestinians, then I'd be more favorable toward the idea. In other words, we ought to use our funding--of both sides--as a stick to get the two groups together to hammer out a reasonable compromise.

Don't anyone give me shit about who has done what to whom and who had a chance for peace and passed it up. There are no angels here--both sides have treated the other shamefully and there are times when I've thought that perhaps the best solution would be to give everyone in the area 90 days to pack up and leave, and then nuke the whole place till it glows. A sort of "if you two can't get along, then no one's gonna have it"solution. Neutron bombs, so the "holy places" would still be standing, just no one would be able to get close to them, and more importantly, no one would be able to claim possession of them.

That's really what's at the base of all this crap, after all. Three major religions lay claim to the area as holy to them and no other, and until we get past this idea that there is one true religion and God is gonna bust a cap in the collective asses of everyone who doesn't believe one certain way, we're never gonna get past the problems there.

And the fact that President Bush, House Majority Leader Tom Delay and Attorney General Ashcroft all belong to a "christian" belief system that says New Jerusalem won't reappear until the Jews control all the Holy Land again doesn't help matters. No wonder neither side trusts us.

May the Lord YHWH forbid the Jews to take all the Holy Land again...oh wait they never controlled it until 1948...

Israel would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and Syria if the US cut its funding.

The claim that the Jewish state would be destroyed if the US ended aid is ridiculous. As long as Israel has nukes, it is here to stay. Besides, the Arab states (with the exception of Saudi Arabia) are weaker now than they have ever been.

i'd prolly consider it a step in the right direction. I mean, who went and made the US the godfather of the world? helping some and killing off others.
i know thats an over simplification, but you get the idea.

May the Lord YHWH forbid the Jews to take all the Holy Land again...oh wait they never controlled it until 1948...

Unfortunately for you He has promised that it will be theirs forever.

About time.

Unfortunately for you He has promised that it will be theirs forever.And if you truly believe that, then you're part of the problem. No offense intended, but it's that kind of mindset that keeps any sort of real peace from happening in that region.

Israel would be forced to make peace with the Palestinians and Syria if the US cut its funding.
Actually they would do the opposite.

The claim that the Jewish state would be destroyed if the US ended aid is ridiculous. As long as Israel has nukes, it is here to stay. Besides, the Arab states (with the exception of Saudi Arabia) are weaker now than they have ever been.
You're right, it is ridiculous. The most likely outcome of a threatened and isolated Israel is the destruction of the surrounding Arab states.

Be careful what you wish for.

Unfortunately for you He has promised that it will be theirs forever.

Unfortunately, very few of them are real Israelites, in fact maybe 5% if your lucky, he never pomised it to the Jews!

But to the Israelites whom the Jews are not!

More money for Americans.

Jim2004.

I have a question. Does most support for Israel stem from religous convictions? Is that it? All they do is waste U.S. tax dollars and use our troops to do their dirty work. Why are we dying for Israel? Can't they fight their own battles? What does America get out of this relationship?

Good riddance.

I have a question. Does most support for Israel stem from religous convictions? Is that it? All they do is waste U.S. tax dollars and use our troops to do their dirty work. Why are we dying for Israel? Can't they fight their own battles? What does America get out of this relationship?
Ostensibly, the reason we support Israel is because they're a democracy in an otherwise autocratic region. Their democracy, however, depends on the disenfranchisement of Arab-Israelis that live within their borders. It's really apartheid, but for Arabs instead of Africans. Add to it that the pro-Israeli lobby has a lot of sway in the US political system and that Israel's existence has literally been threatened for most of its existence, and we find ourselves in a position we can't get out of. For better or worse, we're linked to Israel.

Depends on why they did it. If they did it because the Arab world gave us an ultimatum--stop funding Israel or you'll never get another drop of our oil--then I'd be upset. It actually surprises me that that hasn't happened yet.

If they did it because there was no chance of Israel ever acting in good faith with the Palestinians, then I'd be more favorable toward the idea. In other words, we ought to use our funding--of both sides--as a stick to get the two groups together to hammer out a reasonable compromise.

Don't anyone give me shit about who has done what to whom and who had a chance for peace and passed it up. There are no angels here--both sides have treated the other shamefully and there are times when I've thought that perhaps the best solution would be to give everyone in the area 90 days to pack up and leave, and then nuke the whole place till it glows. A sort of "if you two can't get along, then no one's gonna have it"solution. Neutron bombs, so the "holy places" would still be standing, just no one would be able to get close to them, and more importantly, no one would be able to claim possession of them.

That's really what's at the base of all this crap, after all. Three major religions lay claim to the area as holy to them and no other, and until we get past this idea that there is one true religion and God is gonna bust a cap in the collective asses of everyone who doesn't believe one certain way, we're never gonna get past the problems there.

And the fact that President Bush, House Majority Leader Tom Delay and Attorney General Ashcroft all belong to a "christian" belief system that says New Jerusalem won't reappear until the Jews control all the Holy Land again doesn't help matters. No wonder neither side trusts us.

Well said.

This is the sort of crap you get when you combine politics and religion. Both the PLA and the Isrealis have acted disgustingly, but ultimately I feel that Isreal's actions are unforgivable. The PLA is effectively a terrorist group, so I discount their claim to the area. I do, however, support the average Palestinians who just want their friggin land back.

Poor Bastards

You're right, it is ridiculous. The most likely outcome of a threatened and isolated Israel is the destruction of the surrounding Arab states.

Be careful what you wish for.

i fear you are right, if isreal lost its one true ally it would be forced into a corner and might well see a nuclear strike as its only alternative. the US could be a bit more aggressive in its use of incentives and disincentives in its aid to isreal.

I would cheer, and then enlist with Hamas as soon as I could. Sure, they may be terrorists, but the poor guys have been exploited heavily by the Israelis. I wish this quote were true, but "all who feel the need to exploit others deserve death."

i fear you are right, if isreal lost its one true ally it would be forced into a corner and might well see a nuclear strike as its only alternative. the US could be a bit more aggressive in its use of incentives and disincentives in its aid to isreal.


I wonder if this thread idea came from Kerry's announcement about cutting funds to Isreal and helping Palestine form a Palestinian State. Can't find a link on it today but I saw it on various news programs on various cable news channels (no not just Fox news before anyone asks).

However I do agree that without the U.S.'s involvement Isreal would already own much of this so called "holy land." And with us out of the picture Isreal would become prime target number one in the Arab world. Lets not just demonize Israel here though. The surrounding countries have made it very clear what they would do to Isreal if allowed. It goes both ways.

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

I'd throw a party to celebrate! :D

I'd throw a party to celebrate! :D
I'll bring the Lone Star Beer!

I would cheer, and then enlist with Hamas as soon as I could. Sure, they may be terrorists, but the poor guys have been exploited heavily by the Israelis. I wish this quote were true, but "all who feel the need to exploit others deserve death."
*cough BS*
I just hope that you realise that if Hamas take Israel then they'll turn on the western world. Britain. America. Everyone in Europe except France.
Sorry for my views which involve not sympathising with child killers and terrorists but that's the way it is. Those of you who support Hamas probably also support the Chechens right? same goals, same means of acheiving them!

I'd have a beer with a friend

Of course you all realise that Israel has the best intelligence in the world?
22 years ago Iraq were developing WMD and Israel destroyed the reactor with minimum damage. Last year America thought that Iraq had WMD. Using their own intelligence with no help from Israel they went to war and so far the death toll keeps climbing over a year afterwards. And they never found any WMD!!!

Euh Sanctacraphrax, why don't you go live in Israel since you worship them so much withouth having the lightest critic about their violation of human rights when Tsahal deliberately lowers itself to the level of Hamas when it targets Palestinian children? The wall of shame? Oh , yes it is not build on Palestinian soil for ya :rolleyes: aso.

We must also cease all financial assistance to the Arab nations.

Euh Sanctacraphrax, why don't you go live in Israel since you worship them so much withouth having the lightest critic about their violation of human rights when Tsahal deliberately lowers itself to the level of Hamas when it targets Palestinian children? The wall of shame? Oh , yes it is not build on Palestinian soil for ya :rolleyes: aso.
funny you should mention that...
I do live in Israel!!! Haifa to be exact:)

They don't target Palestinian children, it's the childrens parents who teach them that to throw stones at soldiers is a good thing. They get given a gun and get pointed in the direction of an Israeli tank, what's Tzahal going to do?
Have you noticed how before the wall about fifty percent of Suicide bombers were stopped and now over 97% are stopped??? probably not. Get your head out of the brick wall it appears to be stuck in and then we'll talk:)

We must also cease all financial assistance to the Arab nations.
Good point, the US sends over $3Bn a year to the palestinians! You think that wouldn't be noticed? Arafat keeps the money to his own pocket in order to keep the people oppressed.

Good point, the US sends over $3Bn a year to the palestinians! You think that wouldn't be noticed? Arafat keeps the money to his own pocket in order to keep the people oppressed.

No, we don't send that much, it should be zero though. The EUnuchs send more money than the US does. The EUnuchs also refuse to check if their money goes to the terrorists.

Also, we must stop funding the Egyptian and Saudi hate machines.

No, we don't send that much, it should be zero though. The EUnuchs send more money than the US does. The EUnuchs also refuse to check if their money goes to the terrorists.

Also, we must stop funding the Egyptian and Saudi hate machines.
Sorry that's how much Iran and Syria send:)
America still send too much. I have no problem with the Palestinians recieving money but the US must ensure that it gets to the people not to the Fatah and Al-Aqsa terrorist groups.

I would be very pleased as for once America would've looked outside its own bordes without intnent to cause war and given the UN and the members therewithin the ability to punish israel for its attrocious acts which if it had not had american support would've happend long ago. In the name of security and fighting terroism they have done many things condemned throughout the world but no action has been taken due to the american support all because of the votes of american jews.

I would be very pleased as for once America would've looked outside its own bordes without intnent to cause war and given the UN and the members therewithin the ability to punish israel for its attrocious acts which if it had not had american support would've happend long ago. In the name of security and fighting terroism they have done many things condemned throughout the world but no action has been taken due to the american support all because of the votes of american jews.
I really can't read that so please run it through a spell checker and repost all right? no offense.

In the name of security and fighting terroism they have done many things condemned throughout the world but no action has been taken due to the american support all because of the votes of american jews.

Yeah, that fucking 2% of the US population. How DARE they vote? :rolleyes:

As far as the original question goes-

What would be your reaction if America pulled its funding of Israel?

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

I guess the first thing I'd say would be, "why"?

It seems like that would be the most important piece of information to have before I did anything else.

Finally someone has come to my aid since Pan-Arab Israel went offline!
I can't debate against thirty people who say the same thing over and over in the hope that it'll make it true:)

BTW I would still aprreciate one of the terrorist sympathisers telling me if he sympathises with the Chechens too!

*cough BS*
Everyone in Europe except France.
Your right. This is BS.

Sorry for my views which involve not sympathising with child killers and terrorists but that's the way it is.
Sure you do. You sympathise with Israel.

Your right. This is BS.

Sure you do. You sympathise with Israel.
Slight difference. Israeli kids don't go hanging over motorway bridges and throwing rocks at the cars beneath. They don't throw rocks at Al-Aqsa members. The palestinian kids get taught to throw rocks, fire guns and kill civilians from age zero.
You have probably never been near Israel, Iraq Serbia or any other warzone have you? so don't comment because you have no idea what it's like to live in fear that the bus you're on is about to be blown up, that the cafe you're sitting in is about to be destroyed.
Israel target militia and they hit them! Last time Israel attacked inside the territories they killed 14 militants and no civilians. When was the last time America managed that in Iraq?

Sure you do. You sympathise with Israel.
I live in Israel so I know what it's like to have friends left permanently paralyzed by a militia member. Friends killed for sitting and eating lunch in a joint Arab-Israel restaurant.

Slight difference. Israeli kids don't go hanging over motorway bridges and throwing rocks at the cars beneath. They don't throw rocks at Al-Aqsa members. The palestinian kids get taught to throw rocks, fire guns and kill civilians from age zero.
You have probably never been near Israel, Iraq Serbia or any other warzone have you? so don't comment because you have no idea what it's like to live in fear that the bus you're on is about to be blown up, that the cafe you're sitting in is about to be destroyed.
Israel target militia and they hit them! Last time Israel attacked inside the territories they killed 14 militants and no civilians. When was the last time America managed that in Iraq?

Wrong, I have seen much footage of Palestinian women (old/young) being hit by rocks thrown by Israeli kids, oh wait that's right, Israel never does anything wrong, must have been those damn Palestinian kids dressing up as Israelis...how silly of me, now should I send my "I'm sorry" Cheque to Israel now?

And you say Israel targets Malitia? Tell that to the Parents and Children who have lost loved ones who were shot in the centre of the chest or head, they were not what are called accidents!

If it were done, I might think something along the lines of:
"I hope the American taxpayer will appreciate that less of his/her money is going there, and maybe now there will be more funds for national issues, like in things that really matter"

Wrong, I have seen much footage of Palestinian women (old/young) being hit by rocks thrown by Israeli kids, oh wait that's right, Israel never does anything wrong, must have been those damn Palestinian kids dressing up as Israelis...how silly of me, now should I send my "I'm sorry" Cheque to Israel now?

And you say Israel targets Malitia? Tell that to the Parents and Children who have lost loved ones who were shot in the centre of the chest or head, they were not what are called accidents!
Seen much footage but can't even post one link?
Let's take a hypothetical here.
Israel pulls out of all occupied territories. Anarchy reins and Fatah go fighting Al-Aqsa and Hamas for control and Israel gets condemned for not stopping it. We don't pull out and we get condemned for not giving them their territory.

And you say Israel targets Malitia? Tell that to the Parents and Children who have lost loved ones who were shot in the centre of the chest or head, they were not what are called accidents!
Those "loved ones" weren't shot accidently. They were terrorists, militants,מכבלים, whatever language you use.
A few more to make sure that the message get's through:
Terroriste
Τρομοκράτης
Terrorista
テロリスト
테러리스트
Террорист
恐怖分子
clear yet???
if not then let me know!

Those "loved ones" weren't shot accidently. They were terrorists, militants,מכבלים, whatever language you use.

Oh of course, that 5 year old Palestinian boy was a terrorist, how could I forget...]

Your hate for the True Semites (Arabs along with Anglo-Israelites are both Semites) is really there, it even clouds your view!

Depends on why they did it. If they did it because the Arab world gave us an ultimatum--stop funding Israel or you'll never get another drop of our oil--then I'd be upset. It actually surprises me that that hasn't happened yet.

If they did it because there was no chance of Israel ever acting in good faith with the Palestinians, then I'd be more favorable toward the idea. In other words, we ought to use our funding--of both sides--as a stick to get the two groups together to hammer out a reasonable compromise.

Don't anyone give me shit about who has done what to whom and who had a chance for peace and passed it up. There are no angels here--both sides have treated the other shamefully and there are times when I've thought that perhaps the best solution would be to give everyone in the area 90 days to pack up and leave, and then nuke the whole place till it glows. A sort of "if you two can't get along, then no one's gonna have it"solution. Neutron bombs, so the "holy places" would still be standing, just no one would be able to get close to them, and more importantly, no one would be able to claim possession of them.

That's really what's at the base of all this crap, after all. Three major religions lay claim to the area as holy to them and no other, and until we get past this idea that there is one true religion and God is gonna bust a cap in the collective asses of everyone who doesn't believe one certain way, we're never gonna get past the problems there.

And the fact that President Bush, House Majority Leader Tom Delay and Attorney General Ashcroft all belong to a "christian" belief system that says New Jerusalem won't reappear until the Jews control all the Holy Land again doesn't help matters. No wonder neither side trusts us.


I completely agree! with everything except that there's only one true religion...

I completely agree! with everything except that there's only one true religion...

The only one true Religion is and always will be Christianity!

The only one true Religion is and always will be Christianity!
oooohhh, a real life happy clappy Christian!!!
You are aware that Christianity came from Judaism right?
just wondering.

oooohhh, a real life happy clappy Christian!!!
You are aware that Christianity came from Judaism right?
just wondering.

...beep: Wrong...

It came from HEBREWISM

And it isn't Judaism, but Jew-ism formed in Babylon, as soon as the Mystic Telmud was added.

Oh of course, that 5 year old Palestinian boy was a terrorist, how could I forget...]

Your hate for the True Semites (Arabs along with Anglo-Israelites are both Semites) is really there, it even clouds your view!
I don't hate anyone no matter what their skin colour. You on the other hand obviously hate Jews or anyone else who isn't Christian.
If that boy he tries to kill a person then he's a killer, five or fifty. And i'm still waiting for sources.

It came from HEBREWISM
WTF??? Hebrewism?. Brilliant, hysterical. It came from what now? For all the non BS speakers among us what would Hebrewism be???

I don't hate anyone no matter what their skin colour. You on the other hand obviously hate Jews or anyone else who isn't Christian.
If that boy he tries to kill a person then he's a killer, five or fifty. And i'm still waiting for sources.

My hate for the Jews doesn't exist, I hate the Nation of Israel with total vengence.

I don't hate non-Christians either, but any other religion follows nothing but an Idol.

And go and Google the Palestinian children (if you really want I will give you links) but it would be better if you saw pictures of your 5 year old Terrorist.

WTF??? Hebrewism?. Brilliant, hysterical. It came from what now? For all the non BS speakers among us what would Hebrewism be???

*sigh* "BS"...yeah sure...whatever you want...

If you think that Hebrewism is the same as Judaism, you are wrong...never did the Hebrew (Israelites) have this Talmud crap.

My hate for the Jews doesn't exist, I hate the Nation of Israel with total vengence.

I don't hate non-Christians either, but any other religion follows nothing but an Idol.

And go and Google the Palestinian children (if you really want I will give you links) but it would be better if you saw pictures of your 5 year old Terrorist.
Why do you hate Israel?
What you see on TV? What people have told you? one things for sure is that you don't and never have lived there!
You don't get this do you? The Christian, Muslim and the Jewish G-D are THE SAME G-D!!!

*sigh* "BS"...yeah sure...whatever you want...

If you think that Hebrewism is the same as Judaism, you are wrong...never did the Hebrew (Israelites) have this Talmud crap.
I don't know what the F*** Hebrewism is. Anyone care to explain???

Why do you hate Israel?
What you see on TV? What people have told you? one things for sure is that you don't and never have lived there!
You don't get this do you? The Christian, Muslim and the Jewish G-D are THE SAME G-D!!!

The Christian, Muslim, and Jewish G-d are not the same, the Christian God is the one talked about in the Bible, for did the Muslim and Jewish "Gods" have a Son whom became the Lamb who ended sacrifice? No...

And about me living in Israel...I live amoungst the true Israelites, one of the many Nations of the true Israelites - Australia.

I don't know what the F*** Hebrewism is. Anyone care to explain???

Hebrewism is the Religion followed by the OT prophets.

I'd be confused
me too :eek:

I live in Israel so I know what it's like to have friends left permanently paralyzed by a militia member. Friends killed for sitting and eating lunch in a joint Arab-Israel restaurant.
You wanna wager that there are hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinians whith the same problem? Who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time when the Israelian hordes invaded their town.

You wanna wager that there are hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinians whith the same problem? Who just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time when the Israelian hordes invaded their town.

Sad when these Israelian hordes as you put it have NO CLAIM whatso ever to the land.

The term Hebrew is sometimes used by certain Christian groups to distinguish the Jews in ancient times that lived before the birth of Jesus from Jews that lived afterward. Though important in some Christian theologies, the distinction is not recognized by the Jews themselves who still call themselves Hebrew in Hebrew. Thus to tell some Jews they are not the same as the Hebrews is likely to be offensive. See British Israelism, Khazars, etc.

So spaketh the Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew)

The term Hebrew is sometimes used by certain Christian groups to distinguish the Jews in ancient times that lived before the birth of Jesus from Jews that lived afterward. Though important in some Christian theologies, the distinction is not recognized by the Jews themselves who still call themselves Hebrew in Hebrew. Thus to tell some Jews they are not the same as the Hebrews is likely to be offensive. See British Israelism, Khazars, etc.

So spaketh the Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew)

Well when I find that .5% of Hebrews, then I shall tell them that they are Israelites and that the Messiah has come. But lets face it, when there are around 95% of non Hebrews out there calling themselves Jews, finding the lost sheep of the House of Israel will be hard.

To everyone out there arguing about "one true religion" and discussing "Hebrewism" versus "Christianity," thanks for helping me make my point. I'll say it again--as long as religious leaders and groups buy into this idea that they hold the exclusive on spiritual truth and ultimate salvation, we'll have violence in that part of the world, and nothing will ever, ever change. As long as people are arguing over the minutae of doctrine and bickering over whose God has the bigger dick, we'll have violence.

It would be a travesty and would totally destabilize the middle east. Israel is the only thing standing in the way of the return of the Caliphate. OBL is actively trying to bring that about with a unified greater arab nation.

*snip*

Has nothing to do with your earlier claims.

On a side note, anyone who thinks they have the "one true religion" is deluded. Welcome to the club of every other religion in existance. All with their own miracles and "truth." All their claims just as valid as yours.

Catholic: We eat the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Incan: Ewww. You EAT it?

i would say that there needs to be an israel
but there needs to be a more moraly responsible israel.
an israel that extends the same rights, privelages and
responsibilities, to all sentinet beings living within
its borders, as is the moral responsibility of all nations
to do.
i do not understand in what way the u.s. is "funding israel"
to what end and upon what motivation.
do you mean military assistence on an economic loan basis?
that would be my guess, though i have no personal awarness
of the extent of this, though i've little doubt of its
likelyhood.

once upon a time i never thought i'd see the day i'd be
aggreeing with conservative impulse that the u.s. should not
be funding forign governments at all.
not in my case in support of any sort of isolationism but
rather in opposition to self oriented meddling at the
expense of the freedom and well being of ordinary people
in other nations and parts of the world.

i do not believe anyone should not be permitted to live
anywhere. nor that parents and children be brutaly
murdered in front of each other for the economic convenience
and 'comfort zones' of equaly ordinary everyday citizens in
other, perhapse more fortunate places then their own.

if it were up to me, hamas and p.l.o. would hold seats in the knesset instead of haveing as they see it to conduct a
seamingly hopeless war. but there would be a knesset and
an israel. it would not be a 'religeous' state. there
would be no such thing as a religeous state. neighther jewish nor moslem nor christian though i think ethnic
tibetans ought to be allowed the righful return of their
rightful delhi lama if that be their consensus.

i guess i don't have all the answers but some do seem to be
more obvious then others. in israel ethnic palistinians
and the decendents of european jews ought to be allowed to
live in intigrated and comingled peace.

that preventing this has only and can only lead to further
missery and bloodshed, and is so totaly unneccessary and
innexcusable, or so it appears from my own perspective.

and yes i am myself of partialy jewish decent and at one
time, back in the 60s, in the era of communal kibutsim,
i had seriously considered migrating to israel. i consider
myself fortunate not to have done so.

it would also be my preference and wish, to see mt carmel
become a kind of international 'district of columbia' with
the united nations (a united nations not dominated by the
will of a handful of the most military powerful soverigns,
but independent of them) and institutions for international
peace headquarted there, on their own neutral and soverignly
inviolable territory with the jewel of the baha'i gardens
and institutions remaining where they are on the side of it
and protected by and within it.

as something of an anarchist i have not the faith in nation
building baha-u-llah expressed, but i do have great
confidence in the potential of the human spirit, when not
deluding itself with the circular illogic of idiological
assumptions, be they of any shade or flavour.

=^^=
.../\...

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?
i would applaud it. although i would suspect something more sinister behind it.

Hmmm.
What would your reaction be if the US set a fixed amount of normal funding for Israel and the Arab states (set by law, to stop it being tampered with, and about equal) and then:
Every time a Westerner was killed by an Islamic terrorist, $10 Million+ was given to Israel - as *military* aid?
Given that the Moslems who hate the West generally hate Israel even more, the terrorists might find their usual supporters stoning them in fury for strengthing Israel....especially if the Israelis started naming their military units after the terrorist organisations which were responsible for their new equipment.

Of course, in fairness, if a Jew hijacked a Western plane/suicide bombed one of our cities/etc, equivalent funding would have to go to the Arab nations - but as it hasn't happened yet, that's not terribly important.

Hmmm.
What would your reaction be if the US set a fixed amount of normal funding for Israel and the Arab states (set by law, to stop it being tampered with, and about equal) and then:
Every time a Westerner was killed by an Islamic terrorist, $10 Million+ was given to Israel - as *military* aid?
Given that the Moslems who hate the West generally hate Israel even more, the terrorists might find their usual supporters stoning them in fury for strengthing Israel....especially if the Israelis started naming their military units after the terrorist organisations which were responsible for their new equipment.
Of course, in fairness, if a Jew hijacked a Western plane/suicide bombed one of our cities/etc, equivalent funding would have to go to the Arab nations - but as it hasn't happened yet, that's not terribly important.Oh please!!! Would you stop pretending that hatred was only on the Arab side?
Ever since Herzl wrote his book Jews were ignoring all rights of those people living in Palestine and were pressing the UK for a Jewish state. And just yesterday I talked to an Israeli who said that only the Jews were the "rightful" possessors of the land between the Jordan and the Sea, because God had given it to them. And he was also stating that Muslims were worshipping a pagan god. That's all just so stupid.

To everyone out there arguing about "one true religion" and discussing "Hebrewism" versus "Christianity," thanks for helping me make my point. I'll say it again--as long as religious leaders and groups buy into this idea that they hold the exclusive on spiritual truth and ultimate salvation, we'll have violence in that part of the world, and nothing will ever, ever change. As long as people are arguing over the minutae of doctrine and bickering over whose God has the bigger dick, we'll have violence.
Don't class me in with the happy clappy's. I said that there was the same G-D
for all religions.

Oh please!!! Would you stop pretending that hatred was only on the Arab side?
Pretending?
I don't *care*. Moslems are attacking the West. Jews are not. Jews are attacking Moslems? Excellent - how can we help them!
Now, it's not fair to blame all Muslims for the lunatic fringe, of course. But how much better are the 'moderate' Muslims? Will they accept basic human rights - for example, freedom of religion: will they accept that someone born a Muslim has the right to convert to another faith, or become an athiest/agnostic?
If so, then they are worthy of aid and defence. If not - tough.
And this is a question I haven't heard people ask the 'moderates'.

Sad when these Israelian hordes as you put it have NO CLAIM whatso ever to the land.
Excepting religious, UN and it being given to us by the British.
Other than that you are 100% right:)
You can keep crying about "no claim to the land" but it is OUR country and so it will remain. The Muslims have dozens of coutries, ditto Christians and the Jews... one! And we can't even be left alone there without some extremist wanting to kick us out.

Pretending?
I don't *care*. Moslems are attacking the West. Jews are not. Jews are attacking Moslems? Excellent - how can we help them!
Now, it's not fair to blame all Muslims for the lunatic fringe, of course. But how much better are the 'moderate' Muslims? Will they accept basic human rights - for example, freedom of religion: will they accept that someone born a Muslim has the right to convert to another faith, or become an athiest/agnostic?
If so, then they are worthy of aid and defence. If not - tough.
And this is a question I haven't heard people ask the 'moderates'.There is more tolerance in Islam towards other religions than in Judaism. And ist has been that way since the Middle Ages.

Excepting religious, UN and it being given to us by the British.
Other than that you are 100% right:)
You can keep crying about "no claim to the land" but it is OUR country and so it will remain. The Muslims have dozens of coutries, ditto Christians and the Jews... one! And we can't even be left alone there without some extremist wanting to kick us out.

Your so called "Religious Right" is as true as the entire Star Wars universe. And it was a sad day when the British gave the Jews Israel/Palestine, for not only did they give up their own birth right as descendants of Jacob/Israel, they also screwed the Palestinians over...

There is more tolerance in Islam towards other religions than in Judaism. And ist has been that way since the Middle Ages.
OOOOOOKKKKKKKK then!
*steps away slowly and suddenly turns and bolts for the door*

Your so called "Religious Right" is as true as the entire Star Wars universe. And it was a sad day when the British gave the Jews Israel/Palestine, for not only did they give up their own birth right as descendants of Jacob/Israel, they also screwed the Palestinians over...
And the UN?
You realise that a majority of nations in the UN voted for it?
A majority of nations decided that the Jews deserve the land and so I will trust them over you if you don't mind?

I'm for getting out of pretty much all support of other countries. We've got enough issues in the US to deal with as it is.

And the UN?
You realise that a majority of nations in the UN voted for it?
A majority of nations decided that the Jews deserve the land and so I will trust them over you if you don't mind?

The UN is a complete load of crap, nothing more! The UN can go and get ****ed as far as I am concerned, they have done nothing good for this world.

The UN is a complete load of crap, nothing more! The UN can go and get ****ed as far as I am concerned, they have done nothing good for this world.
Except give the Jews Israel:)

And the UN?
You realise that a majority of nations in the UN voted for it?
A majority of nations decided that the Jews deserve the land and so I will trust them over you if you don't mind?

The majority of the UN also voted against the land-grab wall and the continued indiscriminate flattening of Palestinian towns.

The majority of the UN also voted against the land-grab wall and the continued indiscriminate flattening of Palestinian towns.
People!
Next time you post crap please post a source!

And the UN?
You realise that a majority of nations in the UN voted for it?
A majority of nations decided that the Jews deserve the land and so I will trust them over you if you don't mind?Well. The funny thing is, that the US always argue how strange it is that a country like Chile has any right to vote about e.g. invading Iraq. But they forget that the vote for the creation of the Jewish state was against the votes of ALL Arab countries, i.e. all countries who
were directly involved. How fair is that?
BTW the US has also decided that zionism is a form of racism.

Except give the Jews Israel:)

Giving the Jews Israel was a mistake, and one that will haunt us for a long time. I would like to see this counterfeit Israel fulfill prophacy...i.e. the US withdraws all support, lets see Israel survive, sure they have Nukes, but most of the Arab Nations are bordering with Israel and any use of Nukes will result in Israel being hit with its own weapons as well.

The UN is a complete load of crap, nothing more! The UN can go and get ****ed as far as I am concerned, they have done nothing good for this world.Well then, what has Israel done good for this world?

People!
Next time you post crap please post a source!

If you need a source to know that, then you are an idiot!

Well then, what has Israel done good for this world?

Gee let me think, raise fear in the Middle East, turn the Palestinians against the British there by turning pretty much all the Arabs against Britain and the respective allies (US, Australia, etc)

Um Create a horrible Refugee problem, and one they won't pay for even though they should.

Murder people by cutting power, food and water off to parts of Palestinian towns as much as they want without a care.

Build Fences that are responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians who can't get to hospital, or to food and water.

Destroy innocent Palestinian Homes at random.

Enforce Curfews on innocent Palestinians at random, while the time of the curfew can be set at will by arsehole IDF officers.

People!
Next time you post crap please post a source!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3912487.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/07/21/israel_barrier040721.html
http://www.mediareviewnet.com/A%20little%20reminder%20about%20Israeli%20violations%20of%20UN%20resolutions.htm

Israel has defied international law for the past 30+ years.

Gee let me think, raise fear in the Middle East, turn the Palestinians against the British there by turning pretty much all the Arabs against Britain and the respective allies (US, Australia, etc)

Um Create a horrible Refugee problem, and one they won't pay for even though they should.

Murder people by cutting power, food and water off to parts of Palestinian towns as much as they want without a care.

Build Fences that are responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians who can't get to hospital, or to food and water.

Destroy innocent Palestinian Homes at random.

Enforce Curfews on innocent Palestinians at random, while the time of the curfew can be set at will by arsehole IDF officers.
You really see these things as something good, don't you?

A more comprehensive list of Israel's violations:

http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm

You really see these things as something good, don't you?

Where on Earth did you get that from? I am against Israel!

A more comprehensive list of Israel's violations:

http://www.action-for-un-renewal.org.uk/pages/isreal_un_resolutions.htm

wow never realised there were so many violations

it being given to us by the British. The British withdrew from Palestine after being forced out by Zionist terrorism. They didn't exactly give 'you' the land.

And the UN?
You realise that a majority of nations in the UN voted for it?
A majority of nations decided that the Jews deserve the land and so I will trust them over you if you don't mind?But none of those countries who would be suffering from the implantation of the Jewish state voted for it. Only those who were in safe distance and wanted to rid themselves of their own Jewish populations really voted for the resolution.
The list of countries that voted for or against the resolution can be looked up at the UN's website.

Unfortunately, very few of them are real Israelites, in fact maybe 5% if your lucky, he never pomised it to the Jews!

But to the Israelites whom the Jews are not!

Which are of course you and the rest of your white Aryan Identity crowd... :rolleyes:

Giving the Jews Israel was a mistake, and one that will haunt us for a long time. I would like to see this counterfeit Israel fulfill prophacy...i.e. the US withdraws all support, lets see Israel survive, sure they have Nukes, but most of the Arab Nations are bordering with Israel and any use of Nukes will result in Israel being hit with its own weapons as well.


YES YES!! Lets get rid of the JEWS!! We can withdraw all support from Isreal, and watch as Arabs, who think Jews are descedants of Pigs, rip them apart!



*And we know how tolerant Islam is towards other religions! Imagine all the decaptiations! All the school house killings!! But who cares! It's just JEWS!!!*


Then life will be grand! We won't have to worry about those damn Jew Bankers, and Damn Jew Scientists. And damn JEW ANYTHING. Kill the JEWS!!!!



/sarcasm

Gee let me think, raise fear in the Middle East, turn the Palestinians against the British there by turning pretty much all the Arabs against Britain and the respective allies (US, Australia, etc)

Um Create a horrible Refugee problem, and one they won't pay for even though they should.

Murder people by cutting power, food and water off to parts of Palestinian towns as much as they want without a care.

Build Fences that are responsible for the deaths of many Palestinians who can't get to hospital, or to food and water.

Destroy innocent Palestinian Homes at random.

Enforce Curfews on innocent Palestinians at random, while the time of the curfew can be set at will by arsehole IDF officers.
yeah all together now in a minutes silence to all the poor innocent Palestinians who never did anything but shoot nasty Israeli civilians.

yeah all together now in a minutes silence to all the poor innocent Palestinians who never did anything but shoot nasty Israeli civilians.

So you are saying that every Palestinian killed would have done nothing but kill an Israeli?

And who is the racist?

sorry that the one hundredth post has to be like this but... mod call!

YES YES!! Lets get rid of the JEWS!! We can withdraw all support from Isreal, and watch as Arabs, who think Jews are descedants of Pigs, rip them apart!



*And we know how tolerant Islam is towards other religions! Imagine all the decaptiations! All the school house killings!! But who cares! It's just JEWS!!!*


Then life will be grand! We won't have to worry about those damn Jew Bankers, and Damn Jew Scientists. And damn JEW ANYTHING. Kill the JEWS!!!!



/sarcasm

When you want to grow up and debate civil I will respond.

Which are of course you and the rest of your white Aryan Identity crowd... :rolleyes:

Of course, I'm just a big bad "white" Aryan...*sigh*

Did you ever think...hey maybe this guy isn't an Aryan, because I am not. Heck the True Aryans were not even white, but I guess you didn't know that. Please tell me where I called myself an Aryan?

In fact you throwing the word "White" around is somewhat racist.

When you want to grow up and debate civil I will respond.


I can't, because what I said was exactly what you said, just more to the point.


You said you'd like to see the US pull support of Isreal. Or, in other words, let the Jews defend themselves. And as you clearly put, the Jews couldn't defend themselves alone. So, All the Arab nations invade Isreal. And, because Islam has a deep hatred for Jews, (being that they think of them as no more thing pigs) all the Jews get bruttaly massacred.


BAM! No more Jews. Hitler's will be done!


It's frightning to think that Anti-Semitism still exists after all the Bullshit the world has been through.

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

"Who spiked the punch?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3912487.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/07/21/israel_barrier040721.html
http://www.mediareviewnet.com/A%20little%20reminder%20about%20Israeli%20violations%20of%20UN%20resolutions.htm

Israel has defied international law for the past 30+ years.
BBC? Great, whilst you're there check Al-Jazeera as well!

Of course, I'm just a big bad "white" Aryan...*sigh*

Did you ever think...hey maybe this guy isn't an Aryan, because I am not. Heck the True Aryans were not even white, but I guess you didn't know that. Please tell me where I called myself an Aryan?

In fact you throwing the word "White" around is somewhat racist.

Yeah, it sure is racist to refer to people of a given race by the term they use for themselves. :rolleyes:

Anglo Identity, Aryan Identity, Christian Identity, Poor White Inbred Unclefucking Trash Who Are God's REAL Chosen People Identity. Whatever. I don't fucking care if you're an Ethiopian Identity Hebrew-Wanabe, because you people are all the same. You are NOT God's chosen people, you WANT to be God's chosen people, you can NEVER be God's chosen people, and therefor you hate and slander those who are. Read a Bible and find out why you are cursed: because you hate Israel, God has cursed you. THAT's your big Jewish conspiracy: GOD conspires to keep you down.

BBC? Great, whilst you're there check Al-Jazeera as well!

BBC is quite a reliable sorce compared to a lot of others. BTW shouldn't you be checking Arutz-7, and various Kahane sites?

I can't, because what I said was exactly what you said, just more to the point.


You said you'd like to see the US pull support of Isreal. Or, in other words, let the Jews defend themselves. And as you clearly put, the Jews couldn't defend themselves alone. So, All the Arab nations invade Isreal. And, because Islam has a deep hatred for Jews, (being that they think of them as no more thing pigs) all the Jews get bruttaly massacred.


BAM! No more Jews. Hitler's will be done!


It's frightning to think that Racism still exists after all the Bullshit the world has been through.

I said it would be best for the US people in the long term, American schools and hospitals suffer, "care for your own first" is a good quote. Clearly Israel is the major Military presence in the area, and now I think they would have no problem defending their own, I mean the Torah said that Israel would be a powerful Nation, clearly Israel must be as to fulfill the prophacy...unless the Prophets lied...

Also would you like me to go and tell my Arab friends what you said, if they saw you they would probably beat you because they don't hate Jews, and hate people who claim that kind of **** about Islam!

I said it would be best for the US people in the long term, American schools and hospitals suffer, "care for your own first" is a good quote. Clearly Israel is the major Military presence in the area, and now I think they would have no problem defending their own, I mean the Torah said that Israel would be a powerful Nation, clearly Israel must be as to fulfill the prophacy...unless the Prophets lied...

Also would you like me to go and tell my Arab friends what you said, if they saw you they would probably beat you because they don't hate Jews, and hate people who claim that kind of **** about Islam!


Go to the Middle East. Listen to what they tell their people about the Jews, about the West. Watch their telivision where they tell YOUNG CHILDREN, to strap bombs on their chest to kill JEWS, because they're no better then pigs. Go look at the Women who live every day in FEAR, because they can't might mess up, look at a man the "Wrong" way. And get killed in their sleep. Go look at the daughters who are raped, and then killed by the family, Because they brought "dishonor" to them.


Your Arab friends should not be angry at me. They should be angry at the Religious and Political leaders who pervert their religion into a tool of Brainwashing and Terror.

I just hope that you realise that if Hamas take Israel then they'll turn on the western world. Britain. America. Everyone in Europe except France.
You're right, but I want to ask you how you got wind of Hamas's preference for France? Are you in communication with them?

I thought all radical Islamic terrorists hated France.

BBC? Great, whilst you're there check Al-Jazeera as well!
Al-Jazeera is more akin to FOX News than BBC, which is actually a respectable source.

BBC? Great, whilst you're there check Al-Jazeera as well!

You're saying that the BBC is telling lies? The BBC is lieing about Israel defying UN resolutions?

Post some evidence which indicates that there never was a UN resolution or any of the hundred or so, which they also defied, then please.

Threads like this are the only reason I'd ever want to be a mod ....

And, no, I will not give my opinion on this topic. Nobody wants to hear it. I'd just assume lock it and move on.

Yeah, it sure is racist to refer to people of a given race by the term they use for themselves. :rolleyes:

Anglo Identity, Aryan Identity, Christian Identity, Poor White Inbred Unclefucking Trash Who Are God's REAL Chosen People Identity. Whatever. I don't fucking care if you're an Ethiopian Identity Hebrew-Wanabe, because you people are all the same. You are NOT God's chosen people, you WANT to be God's chosen people, you can NEVER be God's chosen people, and therefor you hate and slander those who are. Read a Bible and find out why you are cursed: because you hate Israel, God has cursed you. THAT's your big Jewish conspiracy: GOD conspires to keep you down.

Ok, I'll remain calm during my response...unlike someone.

I'll post some prophecy, and you tell me who as fulfilled it.

1 - Israel must exist as a great nation (Jer. 31:35-37; 33:20-26.) Until 1948 there was no such nation of the Jews and the present nation of the Israeli in Palestine is a "psuedo-Israel."

2 - Israel must be an island nation, (Jer. 31:10; Isa. 41:1; 42:12; 11:11; 24:14-16; 49:1-3; 49:12.) The Jews have never qualified here.

3 - The ISRAEL lands must be north and west of Old Palestine. (Jer. 3:12; 23:8; Isa. 49:12.)

4 - Israel must be made up of a vast number of people, the Bible illustrates this by saying: "as the sand of the sea, or the stars of heaven, in number." (Hosea 1:10; Gen. 22:17; Gen. 32:12.) The Jews, according to their own census figures, have never numbered more than 18-million at any one time.

5 - Israel must have found the island lands too small for their numbers and desired larger areas for expansion. "For thy waste and desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even be too narrow (small) by reason of thy inhabitants, and they that swallow thee shall be far away." The American Standard Version translates this to read: "Surely now, you will be too cramped for the inhabitants." This was what happened during the 18th and 19th century, when during a fifty year period, more than 40-million white people migrated to Canada and the United States, in the greatest migration of all time. This has never happened to the Jews.

6 - Israel must have lost part of their people, at least one tribe, which split off from the mother nation. Isaiah 49:20 -"The children which thou shalt have, AFTER THOU HAST LOST THE OTHERS, shall say again in thy ears, THE PLACE IS TO STRAIT (small) for me; give me a place where I may dwell." So in 1776, when Britain lost her children in the United States, within a few years, the migration took place which took Israelites to South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and of course, the United States. The Jews have never had a split off from their ranks like this.

7 - Israel must be living under a monarchy and have a descendant of King David (king or queen) sitting on their throne. (1 Chron. 22:10; 2 Chron. 13:5; Jer. 33:17; 33:19-26; 2 Sam. 7:13-16.) The British monarchy traces its ancestry back to David and the genealogy is there for even the skeptics to see if they so desire. It is openly displayed at Westminster Abbey and is an official part of British government documentation.

8 - Israel must be represented by more than one nation. (Gen. 35:11) says ". . . a nation, and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins." Only the nations of Christendom qualify here. One nation, the United States, and a "company of nations," the British Commonwealth, all white nations. By no stretch of the most vivid fundamentalist imagination, can the Jews qualify here.

9 - Israel must have a nation which sprung from the mother nation, but which is independent of them. (Gen. 48:19; Isa. 49:20.) Only the British Commonwealth qualifies here, with the independent nation being the United States.

10 - Israel must have immense colonies (Isa. 49:8; 54:3.) Again, only the British Commonwealth qualifies here. The Jews have never had any colonies.

11 - Israel will "push the people together," (Gen. 33:17.)

12 - Israel will be the chief (most prominent) of the nations, (Jer. 31:7; Amos 6:1.)

13 - Israel will be an undefeated nation (Isa. 54:17; Micah 5:8.) The English speaking nations of the world have never fought a losing war. (We are not talking about "police actions" such as Korea and Vietnam, fought under the U.N.)

14 - Israel will be a wealthy nation. (Deut. 8:18.) The Gross National Product of the Israeli in 1980, was about $16.4-billion; that of the U.S. $2.5-trillion; that of Canada $249.3-billion; that of Australia $119.1-billion; that of New Zealand $20.2-billion; that of South Africa $54.9-billion; that of Britain $346.6-billion. This means that the nations of Christendom, "true Israel, has a yearly GNP of about $3.289-trillion compared with $16.4-billion for the Israeli. As I have mentioned previously, Israeli leaders know that if the U.S. were to withdraw their support of the Israeli, they would soon collapse.

15 - Israel was to abolish the slave trade. (Isaiah 58:6.) This has happened only among the Anglo-Israelites and related peoples. Britain was first in 1834, followed by the United States in 1865.

16 - Israel was to have the finest fruit and cattle in the world. (Deut. 38:4 - again conditional.) In 1979, the total Israeli production of cattle was under 50,OOO head, while that of the U.S. is in the hundreds of millions.

17 - Israel was to lose her identity and become known by another name (Isaiah 65:16.) They were no longer to be called "Hebrews", but Christians, and their nations CHRISTENDOM. The JEWS are still called JEWS.

18 - Israel's national heraldly was to feature the lion and the unicorn. Both of these animals are found on the official seal of Great Britain.

19 - Israel was to be a great missionary people, (Isa. 22:6; 43:21; Mark 16:15; Matt. 7:20.) Over 95% of all Christian missionary effort comes from the United States and England. The Jews have never done this.

20 - Israel was to become a mighty "sea power." (Ps. 89:25; Numbers 24:7.)

21 - Israel was never to become subject of a foreign power, (Deut. 15:16.) Neither England or the United States and Canada, have ever been ruled by foreigners.

22 - The Israel "sheep nations," would feed the hungry; clothe the naked; and liberate the captives, (Matthew 25:31-46.) Only the nations of Christendom have done this.

23 - Of all the great Scriptural heroes mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, not one was a JEW. This includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Sarah, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Samson, David, Samuel. The first Jews were not mentioned in Scripture until 2 Kings 16:6. This was at least 273 years after the reign of David.

-------

This will probably be my last post for the night, as I need some sleep.

So let me point out, I bless the Israelites, of the House of Israel, all 12 tribes, not this fake country called Modern Israel. I believe in YHWH my Lord, and His Son Yahsha ha'Meshiyakh - the only Messiah of Israyl and Savior of the world, my King, my Messiah!.

Revelation 3:9 speaks of the counterfeit sons of Esau controlling modern Israel. I guess it was right.

You are the most hateful person I have ever met, you should be proud, for your hate of the Anglo-Israelite race is very much true, while "Sleeper Racist" like you may hide behind crap, I know of your kind, they are far more sinister than one could imagine.

By all means turn your back on YHWH, but know this, when judgment comes and you will stand before Yahsha who sits upon the throne of Great King David he will turn his back on you.

Go to the Middle East. Listen to what they tell their people about the Jews, about the West. Watch their telivision where they tell YOUNG CHILDREN, to strap bombs on their chest to kill JEWS, because they're no better then pigs. Go look at the Women who live every day in FEAR, because they can't might mess up, look at a man the "Wrong" way. And get killed in their sleep. Go look at the daughters who are raped, and then killed by the family, Because they brought "dishonor" to them.


Your Arab friends should not be angry at me. They should be angry at the Religious and Political leaders who pervert their religion into a tool of Brainwashing and Terror.

I'll tell you what, I'll come into your home which your parents have lived in for hundreds of years, kick your arse out onto the street, take your house...now tell me how you'd feel?

Why stop with Israel? Also cut off funding to Egypt (it would save more money). And Lebanon. And Jordan. And Yemen. And Packistan.

http://esdb.cdie.org/cgi-bin2/broker.exe?_service=default&program=GBK02301+&account=&_program=gbkprogs.report_program_page.sas&x=28&y=3

Lets not forget that only Israel is fighting terrorists sworn to their total destruction and genocide.

Other than that, fukem!

"If Palestinians stopped fighting it would be the end of war, if Isralis stopped fighting it would be the end of Israel"

I've only skimmed the topic, but I haven't seen any actual flaming going on.

Tensions are, however, running very high. So, I suggest tht everyone stop, walk away from this topic, take a deep breath, and come back when calm. That's official Moderator advice.

I'm leaving the topic open as there's still some possibility of civil discussion.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Lets not forget that only Israel is fighting terrorists sworn to their total destruction and genocide.

"If Palestinians stopped fighting it would be the end of war, if Isralis stopped fighting it would be the end of Israel"
I don't really buy this. While there are certainly segments of the Palestinian nation who do want to utterly destroy Isreal, there are also segments of the Israeli population who are dedicated to expanding throughout the holy land; there's people on both sides of the security barrier who prefer violence to peace.

I'll tell you what, I'll come into your home which your parents have lived in for hundreds of years, kick your arse out onto the street, take your house...now tell me how you'd feel?

The Europeans did it to my people ... makes sense they'd do it to anyone else they bloody well feel like doing it to as well. It's the standard policy, "Anyone brown, get outta town".

*shrug*

The Illusion of Dominion + Manifest Destiny = Sad white "race".

I'd be happy, because while I do believe Israel should fight against terrorists, the methods they are currently using are utter crap

Lets not forget that only Israel is fighting terrorists sworn to their total destruction and genocide. And let's not forget that it is Israel that has taken away the Palestinians' land completely (without any justification to do so). It is the right and the duty of every human to free one's own land (i.e. tha basis of living) from oppressors.
When the Netherlands were occupied by the Germans it was their right to kill the Germans. Now it is the right of the Palestinians to fight their oppressors in every way they possibly can.
And by building a wall around the rump of Palestine and interring its people Irael is even mimicking the Jews' former oppressors: they are building the world's largest ever concentration camp.

And let's not forget that it is Israel that has taken away the Palestinians' land completely (without any justification to do so). It is the right and the duty of every human to free one's own land (i.e. tha basis of living) from oppressors.
When the Netherlands were occupied by the Germans it was their right to kill the Germans. Now it is the right of the Palestinians to fight their oppressors in every way they possibly can.
And by building a wall around the rump of Palestine and interring its people Irael is even mimicking the Jews' former oppressors: they are building the world's largest ever concentration camp.
but you can't hide the fact that only 3% of Suicide bombers now get through as opposed to the time when every three days there was a bombing.

There is more tolerance in Islam towards other religions than in Judaism. And ist has been that way since the Middle Ages.

Proof?

BTW the US has also decided that zionism is a form of racism.

First, it was the UN. Second, they repealed that resolution.

Um Create a horrible Refugee problem, and one they won't pay for even though they should.

I must have missed when Arab nations started paying for the Jewish refugees they created (and property they confiscated) after the creation of Israel.

The British withdrew from Palestine after being forced out by Zionist terrorism. They didn't exactly give 'you' the land.

True, that was the UN.

And let's not forget that it is Israel that has taken away the Palestinians' land completely (without any justification to do so).

An extreme oversimplification. The decision was made by an international body, the land was not inherently "Palestinian", as there had never been an independent Palestinian state, Israel won part of the land it did during the 1948 war when it was attacked by its Arab neighbors, Jordan occupied the West Bank for almost 20 years, etc...

It is the right and the duty of every human to free one's own land (i.e. tha basis of living) from oppressors.

Maybe, but to take that statement and use it to justify killing unarmed civilians is repugnant, regardless of whose side you're on. Jewish settler children aren't "oppressing" anyone.

When the Netherlands were occupied by the Germans it was their right to kill the Germans. Now it is the right of the Palestinians to fight their oppressors in every way they possibly can.

To what end? Where would you consider an appropriate place for the Palestinians to stop? The West Bank and Gaza? Or would you advocate them annihilating Israel completely? As soon as they cross the Green Line, THEY become oppressors.

And by building a wall around the rump of Palestine and interring its people Irael is even mimicking the Jews' former oppressors: they are building the world's largest ever concentration camp.

Disingenuous. I would say "bantustan" is probably the most accurate description. In what way does the creation of the barrier compare with a concentration camp (besides having a "wall", which I guess means we all LIVE inside tiny concentration camps).

lolol.....how many muslim countries allow people to freely practice religion? how them iranians, arresting and intimidating over 80 christians recently? or how bout them saudis, beheading "apostasy" or talking to someone about any other religion than islam, or convertign away from it. how bout them taliban! shooting people in a soccer stadium!?!

until people can freely practice, discuss, change, convert, etc. into and out of any religion, or non-religion, that they want in the islamic world, islamic culture will remain the oppressive, backward, intolerant culture that it has become in the eyes of most of the world. stone another woman to death lately, oh, open and welcoming societies (see nigeria, the UN had to intervene)? wow, that sharia.....you would think no human would accept some of those interpretations, that evolution has to do SOMETHING, SOMETIME or claims of open societies is utter crap....reality says the exact opposite

Id send them a nice Hallmark card...

"Well, it was fun while it lasted, try to get along with the neighbours now"

but you can't hide the fact that only 3% of Suicide bombers now get through as opposed to the time when every three days there was a bombing.

So why not have the wall on Israeli land? Why must it be on Palestinian soil?

Oh shit, son! LAND = GRABBED.

I didn't read the entire discussion, so I am sorry if I bring back points that were already raised.

I will play with open cards. I live in Israel for all my life. Although I have a lot of critisicm towards my goverment and I do not support the occupation, I think many of the views of the users here are extreme and the actions they offer are not to bring any peace towards the region.

now, to the thread:
While threatning Israel from time to time may have forced israeli PMers to act towards a political solution, it's the israeli public that made things move by choosing diffrently on election day. The Oslo process was not a result of american pressure - It was a result of the 1992 elections. Israel IS a democracy, and it is not an apartheid since Arab citizens do get to vote (about 20% of the population). The occupation of Gaza and the west bank was nevet ment to construct the "GREATER ISRAEL". It was a result of the war against Jordan. The occupied territories, from june 10th 1967, are kept today only as cards in nagotiation, until the palestinian people will have a leadership willing to accept Israel's legitimacy within the green line. In shorter words, the settlements are temporary, and Jeuda, Samaria and Gaza are only "A deposit for Peace".

It's the U.S' right to decide who to fund and who not to fund, but it won't be a smart move to cut Israel off. Threatened by most of its neigbours, issolated in the world, I think the reaction of the average israeli would be paranoya. Israel will cease to see diplomacy as a tool to acheive peace, and another cycle of wars might break.

It wont be wise of America to lose its influence.

now, to the thread:
While threatning Israel from time to time may have forced israeli PMers to act towards a political solution, it's the israeli public that made things move by choosing diffrently on election day. The Oslo process was not a result of american pressure - It was a result of the 1992 elections. Israel IS a democracy, and it is not an apartheid since Arab civilians do get to vote (about 20% of the population). The occupation of Gaza and the west bank was nevet ment to construct the "GREATER ISRAEL". It was a result of the war against Jordan. The occupied territories, from june 10th 1967, are kept today only as cards in nagotiation, until the palestinian people will have a leadership willing to accept Israel's legitimacy within the green line. In shorter words, the settlements are temporary, and Jeuda, Samaria and Gaza are only "A deposit for Peace".
I wonder whether the settlers agree to that. And there are plans in Israel - like the Alon-plan to annect 50% of the today occupied territories and to leave only 40-50% to the Palestinians.
Under Barak Israel was ready to go further - 90% of the land. It is unfortunate that the Palestinians rejected that deal. If Israel is still standing on that offer I support it.
Sharon is facing massive opposition from the settlers today. I hope that Israel - although of the difficulties tries to cut itself of from the occupied territories. The problem is: in a few years there are going to be more Palestinians living in the occupied territories than people living in Israel. Than it wouldn´t be beneficary for the Palestinians to go for their own state but to demand the right to vote.
They would be the majority. That would be the end of existence for Israel as a jewish state. Therefore it is in the Israeli interests to get rid of Gaza and if possible from the rest of the occupied territories.

I wonder whether the settlers agree to that. And there are plans in Israel - like the Alon-plan to annect 50% of the today occupied territories and to leave only 40-50% to the Palestinians.
Under Barak Israel was ready to go further - 90% of the land. It is unfortunate that the Palestinians rejected that deal. If Israel is still standing on that offer I support it.
Sharon is facing massive opposition from the settlers today. I hope that Israel - although of the difficulties tries to cut itself of from the occupied territories. The problem is: in a few years there are going to be more Palestinians living in the occupied territories than people living in Israel. Than it wouldn´t be beneficary for the Palestinians to go for their own state but to demand the right to vote.
They would be the majority. That would be the end of existence for Israel as a jewish state. Therefore it is in the Israeli interests to get rid of Gaza and if possible from the rest of the occupied territories.

There's a very solid majority in Israel (about 60-70%) that supports withdrawal from the territories in exchange to a valid peace treaty. It's about the same majority that supports the disengagement program today. I only hope the international community and the palestinians will react in a good way and won't ruin another chance for an israeli withdrawal.

About Barak's offers, I really agree. Above that, Yossi beilin and Shlomo ben ami (At that time, minister of justice and minister of foreign affairs) Went even a bit further (about 97-8% percent of the territories), trying to tie it up with a solution to the refugee problem within the palestinian state, with large economical help from the middle east. It really was a wasted chance.

There's a very solid majority in Israel (about 60-70%) that supports withdrawal from the territories in exchange to a valid peace treaty. It's about the same majority that supports the disengagement program today. I only hope the international community and the palestinians will react in a good way and won't ruin another chance for an israeli withdrawal.
About Barak's offers, I really agree. Above that, Yossi beilin and Shlomo ben ami (At that time, minister of justice and minister of foreign affairs) Went even a bit further (about 97-8% percent of the territories), trying to tie it up with a solution to the refugee problem within the palestinian state, with large economical help from the middle east. It really was a wasted chance.
It was. And you shouldn´t forget that many parties are interested that this issue gets finally settled. So, the Palestinians would have also gotten a lot of support by the US, Japan and the EU to finance that matter.
A smached chance - though Clinton was absolutely right to try any opportunity to find a settlement for it.

So why not have the wall on Israeli land? Why must it be on Palestinian soil?
You have no argument with me there. It should have been but it really was on the border of Palestinian land so it's not like you can say that it stopped them going to schools or hospitals when they needed it.

You have yet to provide me with evidence that Israel isn't defying international law with it's wall.

You have yet to provide me with evidence that Israel isn't defying international law with it's wall.
I couldn't give a f*** about international law whilst innocent Israelis are being blown up on buses. They probably are but bottom line suicide bombings have gone down. Less innocent Israelis are dieing meaning less innocent Palestinians die as revenge attacks.

lolol.....how many muslim countries allow people to freely practice religion? how them iranians, arresting and intimidating over 80 christians recently?

Don't know about the christians, though i'm sure it's not that simple... but Iran actually has the largest Jewish population in the middle east after Israel, and their right to worship is in the Iranian constitution. Yes, dispite their revolutionary islamic ideals.

So, obviously, at least 1 to a degree.

I couldn't give a f*** about international law whilst innocent Israelis are being blown up on buses. They probably are but bottom line suicide bombings have gone down. Less innocent Israelis are dieing meaning less innocent Palestinians die as revenge attacks.

So you concede that the Israeli "Defence" Force ploughs down Palestinian towns with tanks and air strikes indiscriminately for "revenge"?

So you concede that the Israeli "Defence" Force ploughs down Palestinian towns with tanks and air strikes indiscriminately for "revenge"?
When did I say that?
Anyway lets get this straight. You believe that we should invite suicide bombers into the country, let them blow themselves up and then applaud them? Of course we retaliate. What did you think we'd do? Anyway the Be'er Sheba bombings killed 13 innocent Israelis. People who, in your learned opinion, deserved to die? They caught the wrong bus at the wrong time.
Anyway in retaliation we killed 14 MILITANTS. Do you want the languages again? I don't know if any will get through but it's worth a shot. No civilians were killed in our retaliation. No militants or soldiers were killed in the original attack.

Refused party program , Even if Sanctaphrax was to claim the I.D.F's actions are for revenge, it would not be true. The I.D.F does many stupid and very paranoid actions in the territories - to that I agree. The construction of the fence should have been closer to the green line in the first place - To That I agree. Yet, Israel's actions do not have anything to do with "revenge" or "retaliation". Its basic means are self protection.

Israel may have violated the international law concerning the seperation fence. On the other hand, one must consider that the international law does really give any tool to states fighting terrorism that comes from large civilian poplution. It mainly concerns a state vs state war, which is not the case here. Israel do have a court of its own, which forced the goverment to move some of the parts of fence closer to the green line. Its ruling was that "the fence can only be constructed on palestinian lands for security means, while keeping the principle of relativity, beetwen the security need and the amount of damage caused to palestinian lives". It means that in the northern area, where the green line is sometimes on very low ground, it's ok to take a few steps in - This fence is temporary anyway. In Jerusalem, it's a little different.

Refused party program , Even if Sanctaphrax was to claim the I.D.F's actions are for revenge, it would not be true. The I.D.F does many stupid and very paranoid actions in the territories - to that I agree. The construction of the fence should have been closer to the green line in the first place - To That I agree. Yet, Israel's actions do not have anything to do with "revenge" or "retaliation". Its basic means are self protection.
Every time they perform an airstrike it comes straight after a suicide bombing.
It's for revenge, and to kill militants which i'd say they do pretty well. sorry Errare but I don't agree with you.

You have no argument with me there. It should have been but it really was on the border of Palestinian land so it's not like you can say that it stopped them going to schools or hospitals when they needed it.

...Tip - read a map, I have seen photo's of Palestinian towns cut in half!

Next time, don't talk out your arse.

...Tip - read a map, I have seen photo's of Palestinian towns cut in half!

Next time, don't talk out your arse.

Technically, you're both correct. The barrier has, in quite a few areas, been built on the Green Line. It has also cut some villages in half, as well as resulted in sealing a fair amount of territory inside "Israel".

I must confess, however, that regardless of where the wall was built, it does seem to me that it would in many cases keep them from getting places where they need to get- both because of conditions (closures, curfews) inside the Territories, as well as the fact that it's extremely time-consuming to get through the fence checkpoints.

So if a Palestinian lives near the border, and the closest hospital is IN ISRAEL, and they, say, go into labor...

they're boned.

When did I say that?
Anyway lets get this straight. You believe that we should invite suicide bombers into the country, let them blow themselves up and then applaud them? Of course we retaliate. What did you think we'd do? Anyway the Be'er Sheba bombings killed 13 innocent Israelis. People who, in your learned opinion, deserved to die? They caught the wrong bus at the wrong time.
Anyway in retaliation we killed 14 MILITANTS. Do you want the languages again? I don't know if any will get through but it's worth a shot. No civilians were killed in our retaliation. No militants or soldiers were killed in the original attack.How many Palestinians civilians had to die for the Israeli land grab since 1948?
And only such people become suicide bombers who have no other means of defense and who see their lives worthless. There is no other way for the Palestinians to fight their oppressors and those who provide them with weapons and money.

...Tip - read a map, I have seen photo's of Palestinian towns cut in half!
Next time, don't talk out your arse.When I look at a map I see one thing: the Israelis are again stealing the Palestinians' land and leave them with the inhospitable hills were farming is impossible and thus take way the Palenstinians' possibility to sustain themselves.
However it may be, the palestinians have every right to fight those who claim a land that has never been theirs. And the alleged alloting of the land by an imaginary god does not count.

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

I'd be thrilled.

I will elaborate:

We spend a fortune every year trying to help people who claim to not need our help and have shown no desire to become independent of it. They refuse to engage in diplomacy. They refuse to get off their high horse.

I'm not going to go so far as to say that Israel is in the wrong. But they seem to think they can take on the world. With our money.

Personally, I would like to see Israel's funding cut back by 90% and that funding used to help nations that could actually BENEFIT from it: Like Sudan, for instance.

Israel has been a priority for FAR too long. There are many worthier recipients who can actually ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING with our help.

What has our funding of Israel accomplished? How are they better than they were 20 years ago? Israel is a waste of money.

How many Palestinians civilians had to die for the Israeli land grab since 1948?

How many Palestinians AND Israelis have had to die since Camp David II for Arafat's ego?

And only such people become suicide bombers who have no other means of defense and who see their lives worthless. There is no other way for the Palestinians to fight their oppressors and those who provide them with weapons and money.

Debateable. One can always find other ways. Pacifism, for example.

When I look at a map I see one thing: the Israelis are again stealing the Palestinians' land and leave them with the inhospitable hills were farming is impossible and thus take way the Palenstinians' possibility to sustain themselves.

I too have a big problem with the fence's course, but I find it interesting that you both support Palestinian terrorism as well as condemn any Israeli attempt at defense.

However it may be, the palestinians have every right to fight those who claim a land that has never been theirs.

Exactly when was the land "Palestinian"? It seems to me that the claims of both people are more or less comparable in terms of pluses and minuses.

And the alleged alloting of the land by an imaginary god does not count.

But being a landless serf does? Most Palestinians didn't own any of the land, either.

Personally, I would like to see Israel's funding cut back by 90% and that funding used to help nations that could actually BENEFIT from it: Like Sudan, for instance.

Maybe I'm a little slow, but why would we want to give money to a country which, by our own admission, is currently engaging in genocide?

I would smile and clap and demand we cut off the rest of the middle east.

How many Palestinians civilians had to die for the Israeli land grab since 1948?

How ignorant! You make it sound like you believe Israel started that war. They defended themselves, beat back a formidable enemy, and kept the land they attacked from as a buffer against future attacks.

That enemy should have been prepared to consider the potential losses they'd suffer if unsuccessful.

At the end of a war everyone does not kiss and make up. Had the Arabs won I strongly doubt they would have set the borders back.

How ignorant! You make it sound like you believe Israel started that war. They defended themselves, beat back a formidable enemy, and kept the land they attacked from as a buffer against future attacks.

That enemy should have been prepared to consider the potential losses they'd suffer if unsuccessful.

At the end of a war everyone does not kiss and make up. Had the Arabs won I strongly doubt they would have set the borders back.
Thank you,
That point of theirs was by far and away and without a shadow of a doubt their worst yet!
Austrealite's problem is the same as many people's, he see's the palestinians as oppressed by the Jews. So for the last time, THE PALESTINIANS RECIEVE THREE BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR FROM SYRIA AND IRAN. INSTEAD OF GOING TO THE PEOPLE IT GOES TO ARAFAT TO KEEP THE PEOPLE OPPRESSED. Sorry but i'm tired of that ridiculous allegation. IF you can't see that Arafat oppresses the people then i'm wasting my time here.
The wars were always, without exception started by the neighbouring countries.

Another thing many people often ignore when pointing out the aid Israel receives from America is that it also gives a fair amount of money (not as much as Israel, though) to the Palestinians. This, too, seems to have gone mostly into Arafat and other high-ranking PA people's pockets.

Sorry about the delay, but it took me a while to work through this:

I'll post some prophecy, and you tell me who has fulfilled it.

1 - Israel must exist as a great nation (Jer. 31:35-37; 33:20-26.) Until 1948 there was no such nation of the Jews and the present nation of the Israeli in Palestine is a "psuedo-Israel."

Let’s see, continuously existing nations with an unbroken line of monarchs –
Japan would qualify, but as the quotes also require a Davidic King, the only option would be Ethiopia (the monarchs of Ethiopia are descended from the rulers of Sheba, so the claim to be descended from Solomon & The Queen of Sheba is possible). Of course, the Ethiopian Emperor is currently in exile, but that’s a first – compared to the numerous breaks, exiles etc in the British line.
I admit this is a somewhat flippant reply, but I’ve including a more serious response below for (7).


2 - Israel must be an island nation, (Jer. 31:10; Isa. 41:1; 42:12; 11:11; 24:14-16; 49:1-3; 49:12.) The Jews have never qualified here.

No; the message is to be proclaimed in the ‘coastlands and isles’, and that message is for the Jews to return to their homeland.

3 - The ISRAEL lands must be north and west of Old Palestine. (Jer. 3:12; 23:8; Isa. 49:12.)
The nation of Israel *was* to the North and West of the nation of Judah – where the prophecy was made. Due west of Judah were the Philistine cities, but Israel ran all the way to the coast.

4 - Israel must be made up of a vast number of people, the Bible illustrates this by saying: "as the sand of the sea, or the stars of heaven, in number." (Hosea 1:10; Gen. 22:17; Gen. 32:12.) The Jews, according to their own census figures, have never numbered more than 18-million at any one time.

The total population of the planet is still insufficient to fulfill this prophecy. If you are using this quote to dismiss the Jews, then you should also dismiss humans, and assume that the promise was given to aliens or insects. (Actually the idea of God delivering this message to a cockroach, and a human in the vicinity thinking the message was to them *is* kind of funny…)
Or you could consider that history ‘ain’t over yet’ – what populations will we have a few centuries from now, assuming that space colonisation goes ahead?

5 –

You didn’t give chapter and verse.

6 - Israel must have lost part of their people, at least one tribe, which split off from the mother nation. Isaiah 49:20 -"The children which thou shalt have, AFTER THOU HAST LOST THE OTHERS, shall say again in thy ears, THE PLACE IS TO STRAIT (small) for me; give me a place where I may dwell." So in 1776, when Britain lost her children in the United States, within a few years, the migration took place which took Israelites to South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and of course, the United States. The Jews have never had a split off from their ranks like this.

Pardon? You have heard of the loss of the North Kingdom? Anyway, you’re dealing with a mistranslation. Consider the Amplified: "The children of your bereavement[born during your captivity]"; the NIV "the children born during your bereavement".


7 - Israel must be living under a monarchy and have a descendant of King David (king or queen) sitting on their throne. (1 Chron. 22:10; 2 Chron. 13:5; Jer. 33:17; 33:19-26; 2 Sam. 7:13-16.)

The quote from Samuel seems completely unrelated; I suspect that you’ve given the wrong chapter and verse.

However, the line of Davidic kings continued unbroken until Herod the Great wiped out the Hasmonean family who were the rightful heirs to the Jewish throne. He also struck at other heirs – for example, with the massacre of the infants at Bethlehem, seeking to kill Jesus.

Now, non-Christians are free to dispute Jesus’ claim to the throne, but the British monarchy isn’t, as the monarch is constitutionally required to be Christian. For the Queen to claim the title of Monarch of Israel would be an act of rebellion against Jesus Christ – invalidating her claim to the British throne.

8 - Israel must be represented by more than one nation. (Gen. 35:11) says ". . . a nation, and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins." Only the nations of Christendom qualify here. One nation, the United States, and a "company of nations," the British Commonwealth, all white nations. By no stretch of the most vivid fundamentalist imagination, can the Jews qualify here.

Why not? A nation – the Jews, with a long line of kings descended from David. A company of nations: three options [1] Remember that the twelves tribes were semi-autonomous. [2] Christians and Muslims, as both faiths have come from Judaism, or [3] the promise remains to be fulfilled.

9 - Israel must have a nation which sprung from the mother nation, but which is independent of them. (Gen. 48:19; Isa. 49:20.) Only the British Commonwealth qualifies here, with the independent nation being the United States.
*Read* your own quotes. The first quote refers to the predominance of Ephraim, mightiest of the 12 tribes of Israel. The second chapter verse is one were you’ve already used a mistranslation, and wouldn’t support this claim even if it wasn’t.

10 - Israel must have immense colonies (Isa. 49:8; 54:3.) Again, only the British Commonwealth qualifies here. The Jews have never had any colonies.
No, colonies aren’t even implied by the text. Even if it was, the Spanish, Portuguese and French empires would have an equal claim!

11 - Israel will "push the people together," (Gen. 33:17.)
Have you typed the wrong verse? This is just a reference to Jacob building himself a house and stabling his lifestock….

12 - Israel will be the chief (most prominent) of the nations, (Jer. 31:7; Amos 6:1.)
Jeremiah: "shout among the chief of the nations"? Finish the quote: "save, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel".
The quote from Amos is better still – here the ‘chief of nations’ is warned that "they will now go into exile at the head of the exiles"

13 - Israel will be an undefeated nation (Isa. 54:17; Micah 5:8.) The English speaking nations of the world have never fought a losing war. (We are not talking about "police actions" such as Korea and Vietnam, fought under the U.N.)
Vietnam was not fought under the UN.

Now, a few history lessons.
The Vikings overran England. Repeatedly. Ultimately, 1066 is the final victory of the Northmen over the Anglo-Saxons.
Where are the French possessions, held until the 100 Years War?
Why was Scotland able to keep her independence, repelling invasion after invasion until the Scottish king was given the English throne?
What about the invasion of Afghanistan? (Not the War of Terror, but the original British invasion).

14 - Israel will be a wealthy nation. (Deut. 8:18.) The Gross National Product of the Israeli in 1980, was about $16.4-billion; that of the U.S. $2.5-trillion; that of Canada $249.3-billion; that of Australia $119.1-billion; that of New Zealand $20.2-billion; that of South Africa $54.9-billion; that of Britain $346.6-billion. This means that the nations of Christendom, "true Israel, has a yearly GNP of about $3.289-trillion compared with $16.4-billion for the Israeli. As I have mentioned previously, Israeli leaders know that if the U.S. were to withdraw their support of the Israeli, they would soon collapse.

Somewhere on this forum is a link to the US debt. Have a look – and cry. Better yet, read on from the quote, to the end of chapter 8:
"Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God."

15 - Israel was to abolish the slave trade. (Isaiah 58:6.) This has happened only among the Anglo-Israelites and related peoples. Britain was first in 1834, followed by the United States in 1865.
No, God is describing what he *wants* - certainly you can use the quote to justify abolishing slavery, but it’s not a prediction.
Now, if only the English speaking world has abolished the slave trade, can I go to Europe and buy one? NO – slavery was abolished in revolutionary France, for starters. The Europeans on the list should be able to tell us when their nations abolished slavery. The US was, IIRC, the last Western nation to abolish slavery.

16 - Israel was to have the finest fruit and cattle in the world. (Deut. 38:4 - again conditional.)
Deuteronomy only has 34 books. I’m *hoping* that you mistyped…

17 - Israel was to lose her identity and become known by another name (Isaiah 65:16.) They were no longer to be called "Hebrews", but Christians, and their nations CHRISTENDOM. The JEWS are still called JEWS.
Isaiah 65:16:
"Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the God of truth;
He who takes an oath in the land will swear by the God of truth.
For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes."
How is this relevant to your claim? Assuming that you’ve mistyped the verse:

23 - Of all the great Scriptural heroes mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11, not one was a JEW. This includes Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Sarah, Isaac, Joseph, Moses, Gideon, Samson, David, Samuel. The first Jews were not mentioned in Scripture until 2 Kings 16:6. This was at least 273 years after the reign of David.

So, the people currently known as the Jews, descended from and previously known as the Israelites, have fulfilled the prophecy you claim exists?


18 - Israel's national heraldly was to feature the lion and the unicorn. Both of these animals are found on the official seal of Great Britain.

Again, please provide a chapter/verse reference. And ask yourself how Israel is supposed to have heraldry without violating the 2nd commandment.

19 - Israel was to be a great missionary people, (Isa. 22:6; 43:21; Mark 16:15; Matt. 7:20.) Over 95% of all Christian missionary effort comes from the United States and England. The Jews have never done this.

Isaiah 22:6 – "Elam takes up the quiver"? Another typo?

As for a great missionary people, who do you think the early Christians where? The apostles were Jews.

20 - Israel was to become a mighty "sea power." (Ps. 89:25; Numbers 24:7.)

Numbers 24:7 – "Water will pour from their buckets, and they shall have abundant water."
As an Australian, I *so* wish this applied to the English speaking world, but as the national capital has just gone onto Stage 3 water restrictions, and the countryside is worse off – hah!
The Psalm specifically refers to the Mediterranean and the Euphrates, but is the best argument you have provided so far.

21 - Israel was never to become subject of a foreign power, (Deut. 15:16.) Neither England or the United States and Canada, have ever been ruled by foreigners.

You seem to have forgotten that England was overrun by Denmark during the Viking era, and ruled by the Danish Kings Sveyn, Canute and Hardicanute.
Then there’s the whole 1066 thing…

22 - The Israel "sheep nations," would feed the hungry; clothe the naked; and liberate the captives, (Matthew 25:31-46.) Only the nations of Christendom have done this.

The nations will be gathered, true. However, there is no reference to Israel, nor to national judgement – instead each individual will be judged on their individual deeds.

My reaction would be...LMAO!

(With an occasional sympathetic wince and a muttered "ouch, that's got to hurt...")

Without US backing, it would never have survived in the first place.

What was Austrealite trying to prove with his list of "predictions", that Britain is actually the true Israel? :confused: Or was he just trying to validate his "point" that the Jews aren't actually Hebrew? That makes no sense!

What was Austrealite trying to prove with his list of "predictions", that Britain is actually the true Israel? :confused: Or was he just trying to validate his "point" that the Jews aren't actually Hebrew? That makes no sense!
I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I suspect that he is a member of British Israel - a sect that believes that the British are descended from the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. If so, he should be able to post links to websites describing and defending his beliefs in more detail. I may be wrong though, as I was under the impression that they believe that the Jews are the descendants of the remaining two tribes - Benjamin and Simeon. [shrugs] No doubt he'll tell us.

i'd prolly consider it a step in the right direction. I mean, who went and made the US the godfather of the world? helping some and killing off others.
Exactamente

My reaction? 'bout bloody time.

Then I would go off to Israel to fight and give them all the help they can get. But, the US won't pull funding. Israel is the only Democracy in the region and ironically, the only nation where Muslims and Arabs can serve in the Legislature (there are a good number of them in the Knesset), vote, operate private businesses, and other such rights.

The Israeli's would grant the Palestinians any rights and not have the military there constantly if the morons stopped supporting terrorism. The Palestinians brought anything they are suffering now on themselves so watch me weep for them.

Of course you all realise that Israel has the best intelligence in the world?Some say they Knew about 9-11...and choose not to tell us....Because they though 9-11 would increase the (billion$$) USaid to Israel...

And it actually did.

Then I would go off to Israel to fight and give them all the help they can get. But, the US won't pull funding.Wait a minute...You are Jewish...aint you?

Wait a minute...You are Jewish...aint you?
Dont be Shy IDF...tell me if i am wrong....

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

"NOOO! NOOOOOOO!!!! DON'T DO THIS!! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!!! WE NEED YOU! WE'RE SORRY!!! WE'LL LOVE YOU!!! PLEASE COME BACK!!!!"

Some say they Knew about 9-11...and choose not to tell us....Because they though 9-11 would increase the (billion$$) USaid to Israel...

And it actually did.

Bullshit. We DID warn you, the problem is you never bother to listen.

"NOOO! NOOOOOOO!!!! DON'T DO THIS!! PLEASE DON'T DO THIS!!! WE NEED YOU! WE'RE SORRY!!! WE'LL LOVE YOU!!! PLEASE COME BACK!!!!"
and I love you too...

But...USaid(AKA International Welfare) is like Morphine or coke...a little (for a short period of time) is medicine.....too much dope(for years)...and you are hooked....You think you cant live without...but trust me...you can...

Besides some skinny people in Africa could use a fraction of that welfare..better than you...You are living too fat...you need to cut out the Grease...

You are too fat Biach I dont like you anymore....cut the fat and maybe Ill take you back...

When I look at a map I see one thing: the Israelis are again stealing the Palestinians' land and leave them with the inhospitable hills were farming is impossible and thus take way the Palenstinians' possibility to sustain themselves.
However it may be, the palestinians have every right to fight those who claim a land that has never been theirs. And the alleged alloting of the land by an imaginary god does not count.

Then you read your map quite incorrectly.
Stealing their land? The UN decided in 1947 that this land is partly Jewish.
The land-grab of 1948 was a result of a war the arabic nations of the area started after the UN's decision. The "in hospitable hills" are pretty much a third of the land, and a great place thinking strategically.
The palestinians have a right to fight?
Then obviously the Israelis have a right to fight back.
Claim a lnad that has never been theirs? I'm sure you remember the USA didn't belong to the Europeans either.

Bullshit. We DID warn you, the problem is you never bother to listen.You told us the same song you sing everyday:
Yasser Arafat is bad...kill him...
SaddamHussein is bad...kill him...
Assad is bad...kill him...
Kadafi is bad...kill him...
Ayatollah(insert names) is bad...kill him...
BinLaden is bad...kill him...
(insert name of hamasmember) is bad...kill him...
(insert name of Hezbollahmember) is bad...kill him...
(insert name of Chechenmember) is bad...kill him...
Arabs are bad...
Muslims are bad...

You warn us in a dayly basis abour all these people "planning" to "do something"...its like the lottery...keep playing....one day you will have it rite.

But some say Mossad knew details about the WTC attack....and choose not to warn....

and I love you too...

But...USaid(AKA International Welfare) is like Morphine or coke...You think you cant live without...but you can...

Besides some hospitals in Africa needs is more than you...You are living too fat...you need to cut the Grease...

You are too fat Biach I dont like you anymore....cut the fat and maybe Ill take you back...

I will! I will! anything! I NEED YOUR MONEY!!!

No, seriously. Israel is in a financial crisis already. We can't afford to lose your aid.

Then you read your map quite incorrectly.
Stealing their land? The UN decided in 1947 that this land is partly Jewish.
The land-grab of 1948 was a result of a war the arabic nations of the area started after the UN's decision. The "in hospitable hills" are pretty much a third of the land, and a great place thinking strategically.
The palestinians have a right to fight?
Then obviously the Israelis have a right to fight back.
Claim a lnad that has never been theirs? I'm sure you remember the USA didn't belong to the Europeans either.

It's funny how people advocate the UN's judgement on this matter but absolutely none afterwards. How many UN resolutions have Israel gone against in the past 50 years?
I believe I posted a link somewhere in this thread and the total was at least 3 figures.

You told us the same song you sing everyday:
Yasser Arafat is bad...kill him...
SaddamHussein is bad...kill him...
Assad is bad...kill him...
Kadafi is bad...kill him...
Ayatollah(insert names) is bad...kill him...
BinLaden is bad...kill him...
(insert name of hamasmember) is bad...kill him...
(insert name of Hezbollahmember) is bad...kill him...
(insert name of Chechenmember) is bad...kill him...
Arabs are bad...
Muslims are bad...

You warn us in a dayly basis abour all these people "planning" to "do something"...its like the lottery...keep playing....one day you will have it rite.

But some say Mossad knew details about the WTC attack....and choose not to warn....

Sure, life itself is like lottery, keep playing and maybe you'll get on the right bus.
But we warn, don't we?
That's what the USA keeps Israel for.

It's funny how people advocate the UN's judgement on this matter but absolutely none afterwards. How many UN resolutions have Israel gone against in the past 50 years?
I believe I posted a link somewhere in this thread and the total was at least 3 figures.

A lot. I know. The trouble is Israel started to ignore most of them right after the UN decided Zionism is racism.

But some say Mossad knew details about the WTC attack....and choose not to warn....
Those same people no doubt think that the Jews are secretly controlling America and are trying to control the world.:headbang:

Those same people no doubt think that the Jews are secretly controlling America and are trying to control the world.:headbang:They do not control America...But they have too much Influence....in the USMedia...and USPolitics...

Go to the Middle East. Listen to what they tell their people about the Jews, about the West. Watch their telivision where they tell YOUNG CHILDREN, to strap bombs on their chest to kill JEWS, because they're no better then pigs. Go look at the Women who live every day in FEAR, because they can't might mess up, look at a man the "Wrong" way. And get killed in their sleep. Go look at the daughters who are raped, and then killed by the family, Because they brought "dishonor" to them.


Your Arab friends should not be angry at me. They should be angry at the Religious and Political leaders who pervert their religion into a tool of Brainwashing and Terror.

Wow.. I actually read your posts.. now I won't bother doing even that..

Get out of your shell and bask in the light of the 21st century world.... It's you and your kind that are stopping any peaceful progress from being achieved.


I couldn't give a f*** about international law whilst innocent Israelis are being blown up on buses. They probably are but bottom line suicide bombings have gone down. Less innocent Israelis are dieing meaning less innocent Palestinians die as revenge attacks.

A homless, childless Palestinian man doesn't give a f*** about international opininon when he defends the remnants of his innocent family against psychotic Israeli murderers.. So why th double standards?

Oh, and the fact that you have no idea the international community branded the Israeli land-grab "illegal" shows your ignorance and the utter nonsense being fed to you by the Israeli propaganda machine..

It was broadcast on hundreds of networks. Take your pick..

Wow.. I actually read your posts.. now I won't bother doing even that..

Get out of your shell and bask in the light of the 21st century world.... It's you and your kind that are stopping any peaceful progress from being achieved.

Well, actually, nothing he described was inaccurate. You can certainly question the degree to which it regularly occurs (Amnesty Intl might have some figures), or stereotyping all Arabs or Muslims as supporting it, but it certainly goes on in these societies, and I personally find it pretty hypocritical when people rail against Israeli atrocities but turn a blind eye to atrocities comitted in the Arab world by Arabs against Arabs. And the propaganda shown in Arab countries (particularly Palestine) against Jews and Israelis has been repeatedly documented. (That's not to say that some equivalent of this doesn't go on in Israeli schools, but I don't think, for instance, that there are music videos in Israel telling kids to "kill the heathen Muslims", "become martyrs", and be rewarded by God.)

Oh, and the fact that you have no idea the international community branded the Israeli land-grab "illegal" shows your ignorance and the utter nonsense being fed to you by the Israeli propaganda machine..

It was broadcast on hundreds of networks. Take your pick..

I don't think it was an issue of "not knowing". It's more an issue of "not caring".

One big problem with this conflict is that neither side recognizes the authority or legitimacy of the UN to tell them what to do. I can't say I really blame them; if I feel my life is threatened, I'm not going to really care what Koffi Anan thinks or if he gives me permission to act.

After all... the US didn't.

A homless, childless Palestinian man doesn't give a f*** about international opininon when he defends the remnants of his innocent family against psychotic Israeli murderers.. So why th double standards?

Exactly who is he defending his family against, and how is he defending them? I think you need to be more clear in your example before we can determine that there are actually double-standards being imposed.

It's funny how people advocate the UN's judgement on this matter but absolutely none afterwards. How many UN resolutions have Israel gone against in the past 50 years?
I believe I posted a link somewhere in this thread and the total was at least 3 figures.

U.N. to Israel: lie down and let them destroy you like they want to.

Israel to U.N.: No.

What BASTARDS!

U.N. to Israel: lie down and let them destroy you like they want to.
Israel to U.N.: No.
What BASTARDS!If Israel would be more reasonable, rational and less aggressive, there could be a possibility of peace, but as long as Israel occupies foreign territory and uses military force against whoever they want, that is just unlikely. And having orthodox Judaism as the state religion does not help either.
An never forget: there was no Israel before 1948, so the land was never "theirs".

If Israel would be more reasonable, rational and less aggressive, there could be a possibility of peace, but as long as Israel occupies foreign territory and uses military force against whoever they want, that is just unlikely.

That swings both ways. It was Arafat who walked away from the best deal the Palestinians would have ever had. The PA, Hamas, et al. continue to disseminate propaganda advocating the destruction of Israel and the dehumanization of Jews and Israelis.

How "reasonable" is Islamic Jihad? How "unaggressive" is the Al Aqsa Brigades?

And having orthodox Judaism as the state religion does not help either.

Because Orthodox Judaism is so much less tolerant than Islam? Get real. Extremists exist in every religion. But the degree to which extremists are given legitimacy- and have influence- in the Muslim world, proportionally, far outweighs its counterparts in Orthodox Judaism.

An never forget: there was no Israel before 1948, so the land was never "theirs".

Ditto for the Palestinians. The land was owned by Turks.

Edit: actually, that's not quite true. There was an Israel before 1948; there was never a Palestinian state.

But the degree to which present-day Israel can claim "ownership" via ancient Israel is a rather specious claim.

That swings both ways. It was Arafat who walked away from the best deal the Palestinians would have ever had. The PA, Hamas, et al. continue to disseminate propaganda advocating the destruction of Israel and the dehumanization of Jews and Israelis.What best deal? And the groups you are writing about were only founded in reaction to Israeli aggression, mainly after 1967.How "reasonable" is Islamic Jihad? How "unaggressive" is the Al Aqsa Brigades?Not very. But they are only fuelled by the fact, that most Palestinians have to live as animals, without work, medical care, electricity, clean water, food, and freedom.Because Orthodox Judaism is so much less tolerant than Islam? Get real. Extremists exist in every religion. But the degree to which extremists are given legitimacy- and have influence- in the Muslim world, proportionally, far outweighs its counterparts in Orthodox Judaism. Yes. Islam has been the by far most tolerant religion all troughout its history (regarding Middle East, Africa, Europe). For a true muslim there is no problem with Judaism or Christianity, since those two are the well-respected basis of Islam.
And Orthodox Jews are still claiming more land for Israel. They still want to add western Jordan (to the Hedjas railway line) to Israel. And the ideological mindset of orthodox Judaism is providing the backbone of political life in Israel.
Ever since Netanjahu was PM any prospect of peace is dead. And building the world's largest ever concentration camp (the wall) only proves that while Europe has learned from history, Israel has not.
Ditto for the Palestinians. The land was owned by Turks.
Edit: actually, that's not quite true. There was an Israel before 1948; there was never a Palestinian state.The land was owned by the Turks only until 1917, after that it was ruled by the British and the British promised the Arabs their independance and unified state. But then they broke that promise by letting the Jews into Palestine.
Of course there was no Palestinian state, but a territory under British mandate. And the Palestinians were the majority of people living in the land for the last 1500 years or so. There was no need putting them into slavery.But the degree to which present-day Israel can claim "ownership" via ancient Israel is a rather specious claim.Yes. Because otherwise the Italians could claim Western Europe and all lands around the Mediterranean sea. Or Egypt could claim the Levant.
And since ancient Israel was never independent of foreign sufferance the claim would be invalid anyways.

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

I'd say boo-yah!

ALL foreign aid should go, in my opinion.

Even so, one must conceed, with the building of the wall, there is something deeply ironic about the descendants of concentration camp survivors becoming a nation of prison camp guards.

I'd be amazed and then question whether or not internal war was on between Sharon and Bush. With Iraq out of the picture though, the Middle East wouldn't be very strong in a war verses Israel.

HaHaHaHaHa
With The United States out of the picture though, Israel wouldn't be very strong in a war verses[sic] the Middle East (on whose side all the radical Islamic terrorists would be).

Sorry if this is addressed later in the thread. I just couldn't resist an immediate reply.

Even so, one must conceed, with the building of the wall, there is something deeply ironic about the descendants of concentration camp survivors becoming a nation of prison camp guards.

Thank you.. that's exactly my point of view..

And QahJoh, I'm sorry but I am currently pressed for time.. I do have responses though, and I shall post them as soon as practically possible.

Yes. Islam has been the by far most tolerant religion all troughout its history (regarding Middle East, Africa, Europe). For a true muslim there is no problem with Judaism or Christianity, since those two are the well-respected basis of Islam.
And Orthodox Jews are still claiming more land for Israel. They still want to add western Jordan (to the Hedjas railway line) to Israel. And the ideological mindset of orthodox Judaism is providing the backbone of political life in Israel.

Hold on, you're saying that the orthodox Jews who want western Jordan are the backbone of political life in Israel?! That's pretty much like me saying the KKK is the backbone of political life in the USA! That's complete bullshit! I can't believe people actually think that way...

And building the world's largest ever concentration camp (the wall) only proves that while Europe has learned from history, Israel has not.

Haha. "The world largest concentration camp". Wow.
It's a goddamn wall stuck in the middle. I'd compare it to the old Berlin wall, but each and their own ideas of a wall, I guess... Yet not all walls close on a concentration camp, if you don't mind. The wall is there not to concentrate palestinians- we're not collecting arabs from the entire country and stick them behind the wall- the wall is there to prevent terrorists from getting into the Green Line territories. And you can say what you want, but it works.
In these territories seperated from Israel by the wall, the paelstinians have all methods to take care of themselves and practically declare a state of their own.
Don't worry, we're not doing any holocaust.
yet.

PS- About the "learning from history" part, Israel surely has paranoias. But if you don't mind, WHAT, exactly, did Europe learn from History?

The land was owned by the Turks only until 1917, after that it was ruled by the British and the British promised the Arabs their independance and unified state. But then they broke that promise by letting the Jews into Palestine.
Of course there was no Palestinian state, but a territory under British mandate. And the Palestinians were the majority of people living in the land for the last 1500 years or so. There was no need putting them into slavery.

In 1918 Britain declared its support in Zionism and allowed Jews into the land. As it was under British Mandate, the British could do it. Not very nice of them, but life's tough.

Wall, concentration camp, wall... Hang on a minute!!!
Where is the connection between a wall and a concentration camp?

I have heard some ridiculous claims on this thread but (and i'll probably be banned for this but hey:)) Tactical Grace and others comments about the wall being a concentration camp are the strangest comments i've heard since Tenete Traditiones tried to convince me that the Pope was Jewish!
note: He actually did!!!

We know it won't happen, say though it did, what would you say?

Maybe Sharons governement would be less powerful and the more peacefriendly parties in Israel would grow stronger. Which might lead to acctual peacetalks again. The Palestinian side would maybe be less aggresive as they would suddenly have something to lose (i.e. U.S. neutrality). This might also leave place to the UN and a final settelment around the resolution. The refugee situation in Lebanon could be solved, with ecomomic prosperity, education etc terrorist actions would stop, regional disarmament, economic comeback in Israel... of course with homongous international funding.

Could be, anyway we need to see the possibility of a happy ending. Which has been rare in this thread as well as in the debate.

I hardly think there would be instant war. It is not like the US wouldn't come running in that case and everyone knows this.

i would be totally delighted if American pulled out of Israel entirely, both physically and financially. both sides of the feud in Israel are in the wrong, and the continued violence is due to nothing more than the squabbling of some murderous children. i would support evacuating the "Holy Land" and irradiating it entirely, so that nobody can live there for thousands of years...let the idiots fight over some new place if they want, i am bored of their selfish, petty bickering over Israel.

Hold on, you're saying that the orthodox Jews who want western Jordan are the backbone of political life in Israel?! That's pretty much like me saying the KKK is the backbone of political life in the USA! That's complete bullshit! I can't believe people actually think that way....
Many people unfortunately do that. And that is of course causing a lot of misjudgement of the state of Israel. Not everything can be labeled as anti-semitism.

It's a goddamn wall stuck in the middle. I'd compare it to the old Berlin wall, but each and their own ideas of a wall, I guess.......
I think this comparision is inapropiate. The "anti-terrorism wall" is designed to stop terrorists entering Israel. The Berlin wall (all as the communists claimed "anti-fascist protection wall") was designed to prevent East Germans from leaving the country (about 2 million before 1961). It was able to reduce it - but didn´t stop it. Up until 1989 2,7 million left the country and the wall was broken down.
This wall was seperating two states but one nation.
The anti-terrorism wall is seperating two nationalities and may be in future two states.

And you can say what you want, but it works.
In these territories seperated from Israel by the wall, the paelstinians have all methods to take care of themselves and practically declare a state of their own........
That is why I see the wall as positive, since it creates a seperation. Though I would prefer it to follow more the green line instead of partly going deep into the occupied territories.



PS- About the "learning from history" part, Israel surely has paranoias. But if you don't mind, WHAT, exactly, did Europe learn from History?.
Never to use force against one another again!
Well, this message did not reach the Balkans though.
Pacificism was and is strong in Europe. Though it actually declined during the 1990s when the Balkan wars happened. Since then it is a consensus among the main factions that the use of force is - even outside a matter of pure self-defense - a matter of last resort to prevent genocide and ethnic cleansing. But even that was very disputed.
Most people didn´t see it as justified against Iraq since they didn´t saw it as a threat to us.



In 1918 Britain declared its support in Zionism and allowed Jews into the land. As it was under British Mandate, the British could do it. Not very nice of them, but life's tough.
And it should not be forgotten that it was the result of centuries of strong anti-semitism in Europe that was causing the demand for a jewish state. Britain was the only country supporting it.
Therefore it is in many ways true that the problems of today are actually caused by Europe. But we have to work on the situation as it is today. History can not be undone.
The state of Israel has every right to exist, just like every other country in the world. And I support the state of Israels right to exist in secure borders also as a counter-balance against islamists states in the Middle East - current onces and maybe future onces.

i would be totally delighted if American pulled out of Israel entirely, both physically and financially. both sides of the feud in Israel are in the wrong, and the continued violence is due to nothing more than the squabbling of some murderous children. i would support evacuating the "Holy Land" and irradiating it entirely, so that nobody can live there for thousands of years...let the idiots fight over some new place if they want, i am bored of their selfish, petty bickering over Israel.
I know that you are crazy. But are you aware that there are also other conflicts in the world?
The Kosovo conflict about this "holy land" of Serbia is not over - only forcefully pacified by thousand of Nato troops. What about the Kurd conflict in Turkey? Or the conflict in Chechenya or between India and Pakistan about Kashmir. Or the conflict in Sri Lanka between the Tamil tigers and the (singhalese) central government? The tamil tigers also use suicide bombings by the way, like the chechens.
In Northern Ireland such practises weren´t used. Though the political process to end the conflict got stucked.
The world is full of conflicts. And the US as only remaining super power can´t pull out of the world. It is against its interests.
Israel is a counter-balance to the islamists states.
Aside of cultural reasons the US is supporting it (Israel is after all also the Holy Land for the christians). After the Holocausts christian anti-semitism decreased and turned more in support for Israel - especially in the case of the born-again christians.
But it aren´t only those reasons the US is supporting Israel.
It are common interests - especially the threat of islamists states and terrorists which are also a threat to American interests and security.

Wall, concentration camp, wall... Hang on a minute!!!
Where is the connection between a wall and a concentration camp?Where the connection is? In the treatment of those who get locked in. Most Palestinians have nothing to support their lives, because all was taken away by the Jews.
And regarding the wall: The wall does not follow any Green Line. In fact it pushes back the Palestinians to the agriculturally worthless hills in the Israeli hope to deprive them of their ability to feed themselves so they would eventually just die out. That would make the land grab complete, wouldn't it.

I'd be very, very happy if the US stopped funding Israel. All the violence over that piece of land shows is that religion is truely irrational & barbaric if it doesn't get what it wants. Israel won't shrivel up and die if we stop throwing money at them.

Where the connection is? In the treatment of those who get locked in. Most Palestinians have nothing to support their lives, because all was taken away by the Jews.
And regarding the wall: The wall does not follow any Green Line. In fact it pushes back the Palestinians to the agriculturally worthless hills in the Israeli hope to deprive them of their ability to feed themselves so they would eventually just die out. That would make the land grab complete, wouldn't it.
HEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEH EEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEEHEE!!!
You don't actually believe that load of complete BS you just typed? right?

"Most Palestinians have nothing to support their lives, because all was taken away by the Jews."

1) We didn't take anything away.
2) If they can't support themselves WITH Israeli funding then what would happen if we gave them Gaza and cut off funding? ANARCHY!!! And we'd get blamed for it.

What best deal?

Camp David II, and then the follow-ups at Taba and the Clinton Proposals in Washington. Do some reading.

And the groups you are writing about were only founded in reaction to Israeli aggression, mainly after 1967.

PLO. Founded 1965. Charter explicitly states its goal is the destruction of Israel.

And the groups I mentioned have repeatedly stated that regardless of "aggression" or not, their goal is to destroy the ENTIRE state of Israel. Blaming Israel for people who advocate an "all-or-nothing" solution is bullshit. How exactly is one supposed to compromise with someone whose goal is to annihilate you?

Not very. But they are only fuelled by the fact, that most Palestinians have to live as animals, without work, medical care, electricity, clean water, food, and freedom.

Which is partially a result of Israeli policy, but ALSO due to the fact that Palestinian leadership- as well as OTHER ARAB LEADERS- could give two flying fucks about what happens to the Palestinians. And you don't hear a damn thing about this. Arafat and his cronies have been siphoning off MILLIONS from their people in the past several decades, while Palestinians children are starving. Israel gave- and has continued to give- the PA aid money, even during the Intifada. It went to further line the PA's pockets, and then also went towards financing terrorists.

There are MILLIONS of Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan. The Jordanians refuse to allow them citizenship, or any rights at all. Is THAT Israel's fault, too?

At what point are you going to realize that the issue of "responsibility" is more complex than merely "A or B"?

Yes. Islam has been the by far most tolerant religion all troughout its history (regarding Middle East, Africa, Europe). For a true muslim there is no problem with Judaism or Christianity, since those two are the well-respected basis of Islam.

Well, it's too bad there aren't more of those "true Muslims" hanging out in Palestine right about now.

And you have yet to prove your contention that Islam is the "by far most tolerant religion all throughout its history". I don't recall a lot of accounts of Jews killing or subjugating people in the Diaspora, for instance.

And Orthodox Jews are still claiming more land for Israel.

Oversimplification. The fact that SOME Jews who want Israel to expand are Orthodox does not mean that ALL or even MOST Orthodox Jews support this- feel free to prove otherwise- and indeed, many people who support Israel's expansion are not Orthodox, or, in the case of many Americans, Jewish.

They still want to add western Jordan (to the Hedjas railway line) to Israel.

Cite some sources. Also, prove that these are specifically Orthodox movements.

And the ideological mindset of orthodox Judaism is providing the backbone of political life in Israel.

Prove it.

Ever since Netanjahu was PM any prospect of peace is dead.

Right, Netanyahu, who as we all know was TOTALLY Orthodox, right? :rolleyes:

And building the world's largest ever concentration camp (the wall) only proves that while Europe has learned from history, Israel has not.

Justify your comparison, please. Last time I checked, merely building a wall wasn't enough to say one was building a "concentration camp"- if so, aren't all of us presently living INSIDE concentration camps?

The land was owned by the Turks only until 1917, after that it was ruled by the British and the British promised the Arabs their independance and unified state. But then they broke that promise by letting the Jews into Palestine.

They promised the Jews to let them have a state, too, and broke their promises to them when they supported Arab-led legislation sharply restricting Jewish immigration and self-defence. Both sides got boned by the British.

Of course there was no Palestinian state, but a territory under British mandate. And the Palestinians were the majority of people living in the land for the last 1500 years or so.

And yet, they had not, by and large, owned any of that land, whereas the Jews had been buying a fair bit of it. Also, the UN partition plan was designed to divide the land according to DEMOGRAPHIC concentration.

There was no need putting them into slavery.

And that happened... when?

And since ancient Israel was never independent of foreign sufferance the claim would be invalid anyways.

Can you explain this a little more? Exactly what do you mean by "foreign sufferance"?

Where the connection is? In the treatment of those who get locked in.

Bullshit. The Palestinians are not been treated comparably to people in extermination camps, nor, using most people's definition of the word, concentration camps. Feel free to prove otherwise.

Most Palestinians have nothing to support their lives, because all was taken away by the Jews.

Prove it.

And regarding the wall: The wall does not follow any Green Line.

This is false. Sections of the wall do encroach into Palestinian territory, but there are also sections that follow the Green Line.

In fact it pushes back the Palestinians to the agriculturally worthless hills in the Israeli hope to deprive them of their ability to feed themselves so they would eventually just die out.

Feel free to prove that this is the actual intent- to starve the Palestinians to death. I look forward to your attempts.

Hold on, you're saying that the orthodox Jews who want western Jordan are the backbone of political life in Israel?! That's pretty much like me saying the KKK is the backbone of political life in the USA! That's complete bullshit! I can't believe people actually think that way...

An unfair, inaccurate, and hurtful comparison. Orthodox Jews, like, say, "Protestant Christians" encompass a vast sprectrum of ideological thought. Some are far-right, such as the more extremist Religious-Zionists, whom advocate principles of territorial maximalism, and SOME of whom share certain ideological and practical similarities with the KKK (most notably notions of supremacy and vigilantism), but there are also Orthodox Jews on the left, as well as many Orthodox Jews somewhere in the middle who do not share the radical beliefs of some of their peers.

Furthermore, the Ultra-Orthodox Jews generally have little to no opinion regarding Israel's foreign policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians. Their position tends to vacilate depending on who is in power and how good their chances are of getting funding for their pet projects. Remember, the Ultra-orthodox don't live in settlements- ALL of them that live in Israel are inside the Green Line.

Please don't stereotype millions of people. It's not very polite. It is quite possible that Ankher is referring to the far-right Orthodox Jews often portrayed in foreign media- the "settlement Jews", many of whom ARE similar, as mentioned earlier, to the KKK... but without him explicitly stating that this is who he is talking about, comparing "Orthodox Jews" with the KKK is simply out of line.

Yes. Islam has been the by far most tolerant religion all troughout its history (regarding Middle East, Africa, Europe). For a true muslim there is no problem with Judaism or Christianity, since those two are the well-respected basis of Islam.

Uh-hu.
Ever heard of the Red Cross? Or the Geneva Convention?
The Red Cross is non-religious organisation; their flag is based on the Swiss flag to commemorate the efforts of the Swiss to found it.
However – and this is in the Geneva Convention – the Red Cross flag is not used in the Islam world because the Muslim governments could not guarantee the safety of anyone using the Cross as a symbol.
No other people are sufficiently ignorant of the history of the Red Cross, nor intolerant of other religions, to make this necessary.
If you don’t believe me, read the Geneva Convention for yourself! (You are required to do so by international law, anyway).

When I look at a map I see one thing: the Israelis are again stealing the Palestinians' land and leave them with the inhospitable hills were farming is impossible and thus take way the Palenstinians' possibility to sustain themselves..
Okay, stripped of the rhetoric - you may have a point. The whole region is devestated.
However - that should make a peace treaty easier, not harder. We are talking about part of the Fertile Crescent, after all. Improving the value of the land should be fairly easy - and those hills were in Biblical times quite valuable. If they only get 1/2 the land they want, but that land is three times as valuable as it was before the treaty, they've come out ahead. And this applies to both sides in the struggle. Given that this thread is about US funding, what about the US only spending money to improve the land of people who've agreed to terms of the US' choosing?

I know that you are crazy. But are you aware that there are also other conflicts in the world?
The Kosovo conflict about this "holy land" of Serbia is not over - only forcefully pacified by thousand of Nato troops. What about the Kurd conflict in Turkey? Or the conflict in Chechenya or between India and Pakistan about Kashmir. Or the conflict in Sri Lanka between the Tamil tigers and the (singhalese) central government? The tamil tigers also use suicide bombings by the way, like the chechens.
In Northern Ireland such practises weren´t used. Though the political process to end the conflict got stucked.
The world is full of conflicts. And the US as only remaining super power can´t pull out of the world. It is against its interests.
Israel is a counter-balance to the islamists states.
Aside of cultural reasons the US is supporting it (Israel is after all also the Holy Land for the christians). After the Holocausts christian anti-semitism decreased and turned more in support for Israel - especially in the case of the born-again christians.
But it aren´t only those reasons the US is supporting Israel.
It are common interests - especially the threat of islamists states and terrorists which are also a threat to American interests and security.

yes, there are other conflicts in the world. i don't see what they have to do with what i said. we can deal with other conflicts in the manner appropriate to those conflicts; i believe the most appropriate thing to do with children who can't stop fighting over a toy is to take the toy away and make them find something else to do, and that's precisely what needs to be done with the Holy Land. these children have been fighting long enough, so we take their toy away and make them go play elsewhere. they don't deserve any more respect than that, based on their own actions, and i don't see how the world would lose a single thing through this solution. the relics and architecture of the Holy Land would be preserved, but no human would be able to live there (and hence, no fighting over who gets to live there)...where's the problem?

either that, or simply withdraw all outside support and let the children murder each other. i don't like that idea because they might do damage to the valuable art and architecture in the process, but i would still like it better than our current efforts to allow American interests to help prolong this ridiculous blood feud.

Well, let's look at it this way...

We've all heard about the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, as it existed before it was razed to the ground. And we can see what is happening in the Occupied Territories. What exactly is the difference between the two? Are the differences ones of nature, or scale? What is the extent of any disparity? In my opinion, not a great deal. People are overcrowded, in many cases malnourished, their movements restricted, the threat of disease ever-present, and there is a constant background level of violence which kills thousands, peaking in response to any acts of resistance or civil disobedience. There is more to this than just a wall. The only element of the Warsaw Ghetto which Israel and America are not reproducing with historical accuracy is the regular kidnap of people for the gas chambers.

What would happen..? Hmmm... I would... SHOUT HUZZAH! AMERICA HAS COME TO HER SENSES! HA HA!

No, I am NOT anti-semetic. Let me defend myself.

In the 1960s, Israel sat herself down on Palestine. They said it was the JEWISH HOMELAND - only problem was, Israel pretty much ended in the 10th century BCE, when King Soloman's reign probably ended. The arabs have been there for 12,000 years...

Some people say it is fair because of the Holocaust. Yes, the holocaust was horrible- but it was not the Arab's fault. If the holocaust is the justification, why not create Isreal in GERMANY where the 'caust actually OCCURED? Huh? By the way, I'm open to persuasion. Just please don't flame me... A calm, reasoned response will work much better, and will leave me with a much higher opinion of you.

Germachinia

Well, let's look at it this way...

We've all heard about the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, as it existed before it was razed to the ground. And we can see what is happening in the Occupied Territories. What exactly is the difference between the two? Are the differences ones of nature, or scale? What is the extent of any disparity? In my opinion, not a great deal.

I'm not sure I agree with that. And I also question the extent to which choosing the comparison you did is specifically appropriate. Why pick the Warsaw Ghetto, for instance, as compared to say, a town in the Balkans?

People are overcrowded, in many cases malnourished, their movements restricted, the threat of disease ever-present

All of which are also present in, say, many American inner-cities :rolleyes:

and there is a constant background level of violence which kills thousands, peaking in response to any acts of resistance or civil disobedience.

Again, commonalities which exist in many historical situations. Plus in the Warsaw Ghetto, once the killing started, it continued regardless of resistance or civil disobedience, with thousands being killed per week.

There is more to this than just a wall. The only element of the Warsaw Ghetto which Israel and America are not reproducing with historical accuracy is the regular kidnap of people for the gas chambers.

Bullshit. You are ignoring that the entire POINT of the ghetto system was to have a place to contain Jews so as to later exterminate them. This ideology is not present in the current construction of the wall, and if you believe that it is, feel free to prove it.

As far as I can tell, the commonalities existing between the present situation in the territories and the Holocaust are extremely general, to the point that I see no reason to specifically compare them. I believe we are not only dealing with issues of scale (which is important in of itself), but fundementally nature. Poll after poll indicates that a majority of Israelis want to pull out of the Palestinian territories and have a peaceful Palestinians state as their neighbor. The Prime Minister continues to talk of withdrawing from Palestinian territory, even as he receives death threats from the far-right. The degree to which Palestinian deaths can be said to be systematic seems to be extremely low.

I do not believe your comparison is appropriate. This is not comparable to the Holocaust, as there is no evident genocidal program at work. Furthermore, ghettos were generally formed inside of pre-existing cities, whereas the wall more or less creates a large contiguous area. One could argue that Hebron is in a ghetto-like situation. With the exception of Hebron, and possibly the Gaza Strip, I really don't see how the term "ghetto" is accurate here. Expanding the definition of "ghetto" so as to encompass the entire Palestinian Territories (one big "ghetto") is to make it so general as to be more or less meaningless. You might be able to call the Territories a series of bantustans- that is, there sections of Palestinian territory which are surrounded by IDF troops, but each "section" includes various swathes of land, including villages and towns- but I think ghetto is a bit of a stretch.

If you disagree, please feel free to back up your claims.

Please note, I am by no means trying to imply that the Palestinians "have it good"- they don't. But I don't feel that their situation is comparable to the Holocaust, and believe that making these comparisons is not only disrespectful to the Holocaust and its victims, but also to the Palestinians, by implying that somehow what they're currently undergoing isn't "bad enough', necessitating erroneous comparisons with something even worse. Jenin can't just be Jenin, it has to be the Warsaw Ghetto. The wall can't be bad enough, it has to be "like a concentration camp fence". If I was a Palestinian, I'd find it insulting.

I'm always curious- At what point are Palestinian advocates going to actually talk about what Israel IS doing, and not just make speeches using unecessary- and UNPRODUCTIVE- hyerbole? One almost starts to get the impression that the Palestinians actually DON'T have it that bad, since people are always making comparisons from what's happening to them with the Holocaust- as if getting one's house demolished or having your kid shot with a rubber bullet in the head isn't bad enough.

In the 1960s, Israel sat herself down on Palestine. They said it was the JEWISH HOMELAND - only problem was, Israel pretty much ended in the 10th century BCE, when King Soloman's reign probably ended. The arabs have been there for 12,000 years...

Where to start...

1- Modern Zionism began in the 1880s. Israel was declared in 1948. The 6-Day-War happened in 1967. Whatever historical event you're trying to describe, you're incorrect, at best, inaccurate.

2- Most people believe that the modern-day Palestinians are descended from Muslim Arabs who immigrated to the region around the time it came under Muslim control, in 638. That's around 1,500 years, chief. Your math is wrong again.

Some people say it is fair because of the Holocaust. Yes, the holocaust was horrible- but it was not the Arab's fault. If the holocaust is the justification, why not create Isreal in GERMANY where the 'caust actually OCCURED?

Simply put, most Zionists do not make that argument. They say the Holocaust is one reason why Israel should exist (not only "the world owes us" argument, but also the "need for a jewish homeland where jews can be safe" argument), not that Israel should exist BECAUSE the Holocaust happened.

And actually, since quite a few Arab leaders (and states, I believe) sided with the Nazis, one could indeed draw a connection between them. But we won't go there right now.

They say the Holocaust is one reason why Israel should exist (not only "the world owes us" argument, but also the "need for a jewish homeland where jews can be safe" argumentbut why does America have to pay all your bills? we didnt do the Holocaust

i would jump for joy
but it will never happen

As discussed previously in this thread, Israel is more than capable of defeating each and every Palestinian state without U.S. aid, so I wouldn't care if America pulled out from Israel.

but why does America have to pay all your bills? we didnt do the Holocaust

"Your" bills? I am an American, as are my parents and grandparents. I have distant Israeli relatives, but I do not identify as an Israeli, and I will thank you to do the same.

And you could make the same argument in reference to the foreign aid America gives to EVERY country. America didn't do anything to Egypt, either. They receive the next highest amount of aid.

And you could make the same argument in reference to the foreign aid America gives to EVERY country. America didn't do anything to Egypt, either. They receive the next highest amount of aid.Yes Israel and Egypt are both getting a ridiculously huge amount of welfare....The welfare we give to Egypt, is because of Israel...All the Welfare to the midle-east must stop

Worlwide, welfare is creating dependence, and most of the time it does not make it to the peoplo who needs it most...

IMO, there's absolutely no reason for us to be giving money to Israel. We also shouldn't be taking their side blindly every time violence flares up in the area. They are just as much, if not sometimes more at fault than the Palestinians.

And you could make the same argument in reference to the foreign aid America gives to EVERY country. America didn't do anything to Egypt, either. They receive the next highest amount of aid.
Could somebody post a link to an official site showing the amount of aid the US gives to other nations? I confess to being very curious about the exact breakdown.
Thanks!

Could somebody post a link to an official site showing the amount of aid the US gives to other nations? I confess to being very curious about the exact breakdown.
Thanks!
This is what i remember...from the last decade or so...
Israel gets most
followed dy Egypt...

Distand third was Jordan...and maybe other ME countries...
Lately...Colombia has suddently skyrocketed to the top 5...(IMO...Thats very bad news for Chavez)

Hope that we would stop sending money to every other nation we send it to.

May the Lord forbid the Jews to take all the Holy Land again...oh wait they never controlled it until 1948...
of course we did: kingdom of david.


For the first question: vote for the party opposion the change.

but why does America have to pay all your bills? we didnt do the Holocaust
Because in return, we get the latest breakthroughs in medicinal, and military technology, access to one of the most powerful spy networks in the world (when CIA can't be caught), and many other advantages..

What would happen..? Hmmm... I would... SHOUT HUZZAH! AMERICA HAS COME TO HER SENSES! HA HA!

No, I am NOT anti-semetic. Let me defend myself.

In the 1960s, Israel sat herself down on Palestine. They said it was the JEWISH HOMELAND - only problem was, Israel pretty much ended in the 10th century BCE, when King Soloman's reign probably ended. The arabs have been there for 12,000 years...

And Arabia (Palestine?) land pretty much ended in the mid-20th century. Jews have been there for over 50 years.

And Arabia (Palestine?) land pretty much ended in the mid-20th century. Jews have been there for over 50 years.50 years?...thats nothing...

Because in return, we get the latest breakthroughs in medicinal, and military technology, access to one of the most powerful spy networks in the world (when CIA can't be caught), and many other advantages..Israel does not have better medical, spy, or military technology than America...

And neither they had it in the Seventies when we were already raining record amounts of Money into that little country...

Could somebody post a link to an official site showing the amount of aid the US gives to other nations? I confess to being very curious about the exact breakdown.
Thanks!

This was sort of tough to find. Here's one source I did locate, though:

http://cfrterrorism.org/policy/foreignaid2.html

Which countries receive the most aid?

The top recipient is Israel, which gets about $2.1 billion per year in military aid—used mostly to purchase U.S.-made weapons—and $600 million per year in economic support. The second-largest recipient, Egypt, annually gets around $1.3 billion in military aid and about $615 million for social programs. (In August 2002, the Bush administration said Egypt’s human rights record was so poor that Washington couldn’t support Egyptian requests for additional aid—the first time the United States had linked Egypt’s aid package to its human rights practices.) The embattled government of Colombia, the third-largest beneficiary, gets around $540 million per year to help battle the drug trade and crack down on local terrorist groups. Jordan, a leading U.S. friend in the Arab world, is slated to get about $250 million in economic support and $198 million in military financing in FY 2003—a sharp increase from 2002, due to its increasingly pivotal role in the Middle East. Peru, Ukraine, and Russia each receive about $200 million annually in economic and military aid.

That would put the numbers at:

1- Israel
2- Egypt
3- Colombia
4- Jordan
5- Peru, Ukraine, Russia

If anyone else can find anything, that'd be cool, too.

I also found this interesting:

Does U.S. aid play a role in Middle East peacemaking?

Yes. The two largest recipients of American aid, Israel and Egypt, got their assistance packages as rewards for concluding the first Arab-Israeli peace treaty in 1979. U.S. aid to Israel and its neighbors has provided incentives for taking often risky moves toward peace. While Yasir Arafat’s Palestinian Authority—which the Bush administration says is tainted by ties to terrorism—doesn’t receive any direct assistance from the United States, Palestinians benefit from $70 million a year in U.S. aid through U.N. refugee assistance programs, as well as about $75 million administered to water, housing, employment, and democracy programs.

Also these excerpts: http://cfrterrorism.org/policy/foreignaid.html

Why does the United States give aid to poor countries?

While President Bush has said that “poverty doesn’t cause terrorism,” many experts argue that poor countries with nondemocratic governments could become havens for terrorism. Moreover, the U.S. Agency for International Development maintains that “U.S. foreign assistance has always had the twofold purpose of furthering America’s foreign policy interests in expanding democracy and free markets while improving the lives of the citizens of the developing world.” But experts say that the U.S. government has given aid more often to reward political and military partners than to advance social or humanitarian causes abroad.

How much aid does the United States give?

Less than 1 percent of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid. President Bush’s 2003 budget proposes about $11.4 billion in economic assistance and about $4.3 billion for peacekeeping operations and to finance, train, and educate foreign armed forces.

How do U.S. aid levels compare with those of other countries?

The U.S. foreign-aid budget as a percentage of gross national product (GNP) ranks last among the world’s wealthiest countries (at about 0.1 percent).

Do Americans understand how much of the U.S. budget goes to foreign aid?

No. A 2001 poll sponsored by the University of Maryland showed that most Americans think the United States spends about 24 percent of its annual budget on foreign aid—more than 24 times the actual figure.

Do Americans support increasing foreign aid?

Yes. A University of Maryland poll, which was conducted in July 2002, indicated that 81 percent of Americans support increasing foreign-aid spending to fight terrorism. According to the poll’s findings, the typical American would like to spend $1 on foreign aid for every $3 spent on defense; the real ratio in the proposed budget for fiscal year 2003 is $1 on aid for every $19 spent on defense.

I find this fascinating- even though most Americans think the US spends over 24 times the amount it does on foreign aid, they also support giving more.

Perhaps the administration should take this as a mandate from Americans to increase foreign aid.

Note: what makes this site so interesting is that apparently it is run by the Council on Foreign Relations, a group related to the NeoCon movement. And yet they seem to be advocating positions that, to me, sound "liberal".

This was sort of tough to find.

Thak you very much!

Note: what makes this site so interesting is that apparently it is run by the Council on Foreign Relations, a group related to the NeoCon movement. And yet they seem to be advocating positions that, to me, sound "liberal".
Memories of the Marshall Plan, perhaps?

of course we did: kingdom of david.Kingdom? David was a small chieftain only coming to relative power when the Levant was neglected by Egypt during the reign of Akhenaten. And although Solomon was accepted by Horemheb as a ruler in the hills of Palestine (he even gave one of his daughters to Salomon), the bliss was over with Seti I coming to the throne, and even more so under Ramesses the Great. The Israelite became again what they always were: politically irrelevant and completely dependent on the sufferance of the real powers of ancient times.

I would like to make a point that i'd rather I didn't have to!
You claim that we kill palestinian children so please explain how it is that I belong to a charity which brings palestinian children with terminal heart problems into an Israeli hospital and treat them. That's right, treats them, not kills them! Not bad for a Zionist child killer! So please stop making baseless accusations unless you can back them up with cold hard fact!

@Sanctaphrax: tell me something. Why is it illegal for Palestinians to have a swimming pool?

@Sanctaphrax: tell me something. Why is it illegal for Palestinians to have a swimming pool?
Come again? Run out of anything with any remote connection to what we're discussing and went on to talk about Palestinian swimming pools did we???

Come again? Run out of anything with any remote connection to what we're discussing and went on to talk about Palestinian swimming pools did we???Just the other day I saw a documentation about the Palestinian swimmer who took part in the Olympics. He told the camera team that he could not show them the way to the swimming pool where he was training because it was set up "illegally", since Israelis do not allow Palestinians to have or use swimming pools. This is just another stone in the mosaique showing how Israel seems to be treating Palestinians. So if you are working for a charity helping Palestinian children, does that make up for Apache helicopters firing missiles into buildings and streets to go after alleged terrorists and killing scores of civilians? I don't think so.

I have a question. Does most support for Israel stem from religous convictions? Is that it? All they do is waste U.S. tax dollars and use our troops to do their dirty work. Why are we dying for Israel? Can't they fight their own battles? What does America get out of this relationship?


YOU IDIOT!!!! Israel doesn't use US troops!

.... I belong to a charity which brings palestinian children ....into an Israeli hospital and treat them.Well I belong to a charity that pays for all the Jews and arab who work for Israel...

And the end...we Pay for your salary too...so In a way without us you could not afford to pay for the Palestinean...

here are my "Charity" coordinates:
Washington, DC 500 N. Capitol St. NW
Washington, DC 20221
(202) 874-6748

YOU IDIOT!!!! Israel doesn't use US troops!1000 American GIs have died in Irak...I wonder what is the % of Muslims and Jews....

1000 American GIs have died in Irak...I wonder what is the % of Muslims and Jews....


That is America's war, we are not doing that for Israel. BushCo is doing that for oil!!!! :gundge:

That is America's war, we are not doing that for Israel. BushCo is doing that for oil!!!! :gundge:just Follow the money...The number 1 beneficiary of the Irak War is Israel.

Here is what I think...The White house MidleEast "experts/advisors"...who are big Friends with the Powerful Jewish Lobby...Convinced Bush that Invading Irak was a Win-Win situation...because of the Oil....

All warnings coming from the Intelligence Agencies were tamed down...reduxed...or simply did not make all the way thru...

Just the other day I saw a documentation about the Palestinian swimmer who took part in the Olympics. He told the camera team that he could not show them the way to the swimming pool where he was training because it was set up "illegally", since Israelis do not allow Palestinians to have or use swimming pools. This is just another stone in the mosaique showing how Israel seems to be treating Palestinians. So if you are working for a charity helping Palestinian children, does that make up for Apache helicopters firing missiles into buildings and streets to go after alleged terrorists and killing scores of civilians? I don't think so.
Well then stop watching Al-Jazeera!
It doesn't make up for it but guess what, every life is a life. Regardless of whether he's black, white or Hispanic. He's a child. Every one they save is a life. A life isn't a statistic. You can't say "oh, we've saved X amounts but we've killed Y so it's not acceptable!"
This athletes allegations are false. Find me the law which says "Palestinians may not own private or public swimming pools." Then we'll talk, deal?

@Sanctaphrax: tell me something. Why is it illegal for Palestinians to have a swimming pool?


Get educated you idiot!!! All you do is say S!@#! I doubt your religion teaches you to blow up a bus or a shop full of women children and defenseless people who are minding their own business!

BTW your self-loving fundamentalist leaders screwed everything up...because of all these terrorist attacks, all Palestinians lost thier jobs in Israel!

Isrealis are the next hitler SS movement they are smart in making the US give them and weapon and in return destroy arab hospitals,schools and offices all in the name of looking for nuclear facilities. this is ethnic cleansing by mean and inhuman jews who want to rule the world.accept it muslim would always be in these world, jew should go back to wearing undersized caps and not killling muslims

Get educated you idiot!!! All you do is say S!@#! I doubt your religion teaches you to blow up a bus or a shop full of women children and defenseless people who are minding their own business!

BTW your self-loving fundamentalist leaders screwed everything up...because of all these terrorist attacks, all Palestinians lost thier jobs in Israel!
I agree with your points but I think we all need to calm down a bit. No-one is more annoyed at his statements than me but don't give him the satisfaction of you losing your temper. We can all calm down, have a drink and come back ready for another round of civilised debating.

Isrealis are the next hitler SS movement they are smart in making the US give them and weapon and in return destroy arab hospitals,schools and offices all in the name of looking for nuclear facilities. this is ethnic cleansing by mean and inhuman jews who want to rule the world.accept it muslim would always be in these world, jew should go back to wearing undersized caps and not killling muslims
1) remember 1st grade grammar lessons? full stops, that bit?
2) Instead of trolling and flamebaiting make calm, logical, well thought out comments and then we'll debate them.
3) Never, ever compare me to a nazi.

I agree with your points but I think we all need to calm down a bit. No-one is more annoyed at his statements than me but don't give him the satisfaction of you losing your temper. We can all calm down, have a drink and come back ready for another round of civilised debating.

I can't calm down!
:headbang: its as if their brain cells evaporated during their sleep!!!

They blow up a bus full of civilians! Then Israel strikes back killing Hamas leader...and they will be saying that Israel just commited a "War Crime".
I mean Common sense and Logic doesn't exist anymore!! :gundge:

....
3) Never, ever compare me to a nazi.hmm....Are you for or against the Jewish-Apharteid-Wall ?(Sharon calls it his security fence)

I can't calm down!
:headbang: its as if their brain cells evaporated during their sleep!!!

They blow up a bus full of civilians! Then Israel strikes back killing Hamas leader...and they will be saying that Israel just commited a "War Crime".
I mean Common sense and Logic doesn't exist anymore!! :gundge:
I agree but keep posting like that and you'll get deleted. It would be a shame to get deleted over something this trivial. If you ask my opinion we should set up a debate between the best pro-Israel debater on this forum (in my opinion) who would have to be QahJoh and The best anti-Israel debater which... Forget it, I haven't found any remotely convincing ones yet!

hmm....Are you for or against the Jewish-Apharteid-Wall ?(Sharon calls it his security fence)
I believe that it should have been built on Israeli land but that it is completely neccessary in order to stop the wave of suicide bombers.

hmm....Are you for or against the Jewish-Apharteid-Wall ?(Sharon calls it his security fence)


WTF is that supposed to mean?!?!?!?!

No one is supposed to be compared with Nazi and Stalin!
You definitely got some mental issue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree but keep posting like that and you'll get deleted. It would be a shame to get deleted over something this trivial. If you ask my opinion we should set up a debate between the best pro-Israel debater on this forum (in my opinion) who would have to be QahJoh and The best anti-Israel debater which... Forget it, I haven't found any remotely convincing ones yet!


LOL! ok...I agree!

Well then stop watching Al-Jazeera!
It doesn't make up for it but guess what, every life is a life. Regardless of whether he's black, white or Hispanic. He's a child. Every one they save is a life. A life isn't a statistic. You can't say "oh, we've saved X amounts but we've killed Y so it's not acceptable!"
This athletes allegations are false. Find me the law which says "Palestinians may not own private or public swimming pools." Then we'll talk, deal?I think I've seen that on BBC.
So if every life is a life and everyone's life is respected by Israel, why does Israel fly air-strikes against Palestinians and kill alleged terrorists (and many civilians) without trial? And it is a difference between a state using force and people who see their land taken by foreigners doing so.
And do Israeli officials do only what the law allows? I cannot quote Israeli law (url?), but if an athlete has to hide when he is going to a swimming pool so the Israeli forces won't find out the location, I don't think he is making that up. There sure would be no need for that when there was support from the Israeli side.

I believe that it should have been built on Israeli land but that it is completely neccessary in order to stop the wave of suicide bombers.for now...I dont have a strong enough case...I take it back

I think I've seen that on BBC.
So if every life is a life and everyone's life is respected by Israel, why does Israel fly air-strikes against Palestinians and kill alleged terrorists (and many civilians) without trial? And it is a difference between a state using force and people who see their land taken by foreigners doing so.
And do Israeli officials do only what the law allows? I cannot quote Israeli law (url?), but if an athlete has to hide when he is going to a swimming pool so the Israeli forces won't find out the location, I don't think he is making that up. There sure would be no need for that when there was support from the Israeli side.


Israel will only support Palestinians, if, the Plaestinians will go against those self-loving fundamentalist groups!!!
And about killing "terrorist", (almost never civillians), can you tell me wtf are your terrorist doing killing civillians in buses, shops...ect. Why can't your terrorists fight like MEN on battle fields against Israeli soldiers.
My guess would be the terrorists are too cowardly to do something like this!

...Why can't your terrorists fight like MEN on battle fields against Israeli soldiers.
My guess would be the terrorists are too cowardly to do something like this!maybe for the same reasons that the French, Jewish, Polish, Resistances did not fight on open Battle fields against German soldiers...

Israel will only support Palestinians, if, the Plaestinians will go against those self-loving fundamentalist groups!!!
And about killing "terrorist", (almost never civillians), can you tell me wtf are your terrorist doing killing civillians in buses, shops...ect. Why can't your terrorists fight like MEN on battle fields against Israeli soldiers.
My guess would be the terrorists are too cowardly to do something like this!They are not my terrorists.
Why are there so many kids ready to blow up themselves and kill civilians? Because they have never known other conditions living in an occupied land. They have been raised only learning to hate those responsible for their plight. And someone who is ready to die in a suicide attack 1. sees no other way of resistance and 2. does not regard the own life as worth anything.
When Germany had occupied the Netherlands in WW2 everybody would have found it to be alright if a dutchman were to kill (any) Germans. So what is different regarding the situation in Palestine/Israel? Occupation is occupation, and if the occupators would stop the occupation, everything would be just fine.

maybe for the same reasons that the French, Jewish, Polish, Resistances did not fight on open Battle fields against German soldiers...

My bad...you know what I mean...the Jewish, French and Polish didn't go blow up civillians!

My bad...you know what I mean...the Jewish, French and Polish didn't go blow up civillians!maybe they did maybe not...

but they were not stupid...for sure they did not Figth in open Battle field against The German Army

They are not my terrorists.
Why are there so many kids ready to blow up themselves and kill civilians? Because they have never known other conditions living in an occupied land. They have been raised only learning to hate those responsible for their plight. And someone who is ready to die in a suicide attack 1. sees no other way of resistance and 2. does not regard the own life as worth anything.

If they've been raised to hate those responsible for their plight, why haven't they torn down Arafat yet?

If they've been raised to hate those responsible for their plight, why haven't they torn down Arafat yet?Because Arafat is not the occupator of the land.

Because Arafat is not the occupator of the land.

*LOL* who is the "occupator"?

Arafat is responsible for the culture of terrorism that keeps Israel in excuses for continuing the occupation.

They are not my terrorists.
Why are there so many kids ready to blow up themselves and kill civilians? Because they have never known other conditions living in an occupied land. They have been raised only learning to hate those responsible for their plight. And someone who is ready to die in a suicide attack 1. sees no other way of resistance and 2. does not regard the own life as worth anything.

Actually if It was 100% occupied by Israel, there would be no Terrorist!
Palestians acutally have thier so called "Police". The term and conditions that Palestians have, are because of those self-loving money loving fundamentalist groups. and WTF are you fighting for? I would rather be occupied by a richer and more organized counrty than have than be independant with a whole bunch of illiterate people!

If you look at all those countries that fought for thier independance (except for the US), their life style, economy, basically everything became worse.
And those people who fought for the independance of thier county, only wanted to get rich! Thats why education should be everyones first priority!

maybe...but they were not stupid either...they did not Figth in open Battle field against The German Army

THATS WHY I SAID "MY BAD"

Actually it is 100% occupied by Israel.

Actually it is 100% occupied by Israel.

I think s/he meant "annexed". And I almost agree.

Actually it is 100% occupied by Israel.


Ummmm....no ITS NOT, only officially.

Good to see that everyones calm.
Now Ankher, The palestinian athlete did what he did for a publicity stunt! Ever watched a football transfer. The player may have never heard of the club he moved to before but as soon as he got there he supported them since he was a child! The Palestinian athlete wanted publicity and popularity in the territories so he lied. 50/50 that Arafat was behind it!

hehehe...this topic is dead, I guess :)