NationStates Jolt Archive


The multiple conspiracies to kill Hitler from the German resistance.

Mr Basil Fawlty
13-09-2004, 01:44
Hello all, I just found this website a little while ago and thought this was a good site.

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Conspiracy.htm
Gigatron
13-09-2004, 01:50
Hello all, I just found this website a little while ago and thought this was a good site.

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Conspiracy.htm
Possibly, but history has largely been written in the way that all of Germany was evil, murderers, bloodlusty etc. It will take some time still until the real course of history will be accepted due to undeniable proof.
Superpower07
13-09-2004, 01:52
Yep I've heard of these conspiracies as well
Von Witzleben
13-09-2004, 01:56
Yeah. I've seen this site before. It's a good one.
Mr Basil Fawlty
13-09-2004, 02:01
Possibly, but history has largely been written in the way that all of Germany was evil, murderers, bloodlusty etc. It will take some time still until the real course of history will be accepted due to undeniable proof.

*Looks at the number of Gigatron potsts and tells him: 1000!*Congrets, Gigatron!
Gigatron
13-09-2004, 02:03
*Looks at the number of Gigatron potsts and tells him: 1000!*Congrets, Gigatron!
OoOooh.. I'm a pimp!!!
*giggle*
Roach-Busters
13-09-2004, 02:06
Possibly, but history has largely been written in the way that all of Germany was evil, murderers, bloodlusty etc. It will take some time still until the real course of history will be accepted due to undeniable proof.

I know, it's sickening. Not all Germans were Nazi or pro-Hitler. And the Allies committed horrific atrocities as well. Considering what city you live in, I'm pretty sure you know that better than anyone else here does.
Roach-Busters
13-09-2004, 02:12
bump
Eldarana
13-09-2004, 02:44
Wish the assination attempts on Hitler would have started and worked before the war started.
Gigatron
13-09-2004, 02:47
Wish the assination attempts on Hitler would have started and worked before the war started.
Trust me. Many many Germans wished that too.
Mr Basil Fawlty
13-09-2004, 02:48
Wish the assination attempts on Hitler would have started and worked before the war started.


Euh..., many did start before the war, read the link ;)
Von Witzleben
13-09-2004, 04:21
bump
Peopleandstuff
13-09-2004, 07:46
Slighty (but not entirely) off topic, I dont normally like spy/war/espionage type books, but I did once read one that was based on the premise that Hitler actually had been assasinated, but no one knew because they got a 'double in'. From memory it was quite a good book...
BackwoodsSquatches
13-09-2004, 08:00
You know what Ive always wondered about Hitler?

What made him think that such a far-fetched idea, would actually work?
Killing all the Jews he could lay his hands on....creating a race of "Aryan Supermen", and global domination would actually succeed?

Did he really think that The United States and Russia would just roll over?

What made him, and those who supported him buy into that crap?
Bushrepublican liars
13-09-2004, 09:55
A very interesting post. Nice to see that much allready happened BEFORE the war.
Eldarana
13-09-2004, 14:44
Well if the assinations would have worked there still would have been World War II only it would be the world versus communism.
Mr Basil Fawlty
13-09-2004, 14:46
Well if the assinations would have worked there still would have been World War II only it would be the world versus communism.

We don't know that. But "What if's" are allways nice to debate.
Eldarana
13-09-2004, 14:48
Yeah i always liked asking the what if questions.
The Holy Palatinate
13-09-2004, 15:03
[QUOTE=BackwoodsSquatches
Did he really think that The United States and Russia would just roll over?

What made him, and those who supported him buy into that crap?[/QUOTE]

After WWI, rather than admitting that they'd been beaten fair and square, a large number of Germans insisted that they'd been 'stabbed in the back' by the Jews, communists, socialists, etc etc and that they would have won the war otherwise. So they were convinced that as long as the Final Solution went ahead, they'd win.

Saner Germans knew that the US hadn't really wanted to enter WWI, and hoped that the US would remain isolationist. Also, the Soviet Union wasn't taken terribly seriously; the Polish invasion in 1920, the Stalinist purges plus the Finnish Winter War all made Russia look foolish, so it's not surprising that the USSR was underestimated. And given that Stalin is supposed to have considered offering terms to Hitler during Barbarossa, maybe even the Russians were underestimating themselves!
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 02:19
Just found out something interesting since most people think that the troops at home were very loyal to the party. They weren't and would trow over the regime if Hitler was really dead. Surched for some proof that they were able to take power.But once they know that the plot failed, fear took power. Most people think that the reserve armee (ersatz) were loyal Nazi's, but things deserve a nuance since they also would not resist th enew Generals in power that would end the war.

I have found some general figures for the Ersatzheer in mid 1944:

Total Strength - 2,500,000.

Sick and Wounded - 700,000.
Convalescents - 200,000.
Medical Personnel - 100,000.
Home guard, internal security - 300,000.
Command authorities, static installations - 300,000.
Recruits in training - 500,000.
Replacements en route to the front - 400,000.

Also the Walkure units of each wehrkreis were to consist of :

2-3 Infantry Battalions.
An artillery abteilung of 2-3 batteries (some with French pieces)
1-2 anti-tank companies.
1 Engineer company.

They had to be fully ready for action within 6 hours. In total they were the equivalent of about five 1944 pattern infantry divisions. The variations depended on the constitution of the wehrkreis concerned. Some were three times as large as others.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It must be remembered that the plotters were few in number and engaged in a gigantic confidence trick. They were using a mobilisation plan ("Walkure") that was designed to deal with internal unrest. "Walkure" could only be initiated by Hitler, or, in his absence, by the head of the Ersatzheer, General Fromm. Hitler, as the target, could not order "Walkure" and Fromm refused to co-operate. They therefore had to issue the Walkure notificatons under different signatures, which caused a lot of doubts in the provincial wehrkreise.

The plotters told everyone, including the vast majority of officers within Ersatzheer headquarters, that Hitler had been killed by a Nazi coup and ordered every wehrkreis to use its Walkure units to occupy all Nazi Party offices, all Himmler's police installations and all Goebbels's broadcasting stations. Walkure units were also to go to all Waffen-SS depots with orders to keep them in barracks. With the focus of the SS oath - Hitler - dead it was hoped that the Waffen-SS would follow the army line.

In the provinces, only the commander of Wehrkreis IV was in on the plot. There were small cells of supporters in all the other wehrkreise headquarters, but the overwhelming majority of officers had to be tricked into putting Walkure into action. However, as soon as it became clear that Hitler was still alive all Walkure activities were suspended.

The plotters were engaged in a gigantic bluff which absolutely depended on Hitler being killed. He was not and they had no chance as soon as this was known.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From the little evidence available, it seems that the various Nazi Party organisations might have remained entirely passive if Hitler had been killed. In Paris Himmler's entire secret police were briefly arrested without any resistance. In Vienna all the local Nazi big-wigs were also briefly rounded up without any resistance. In Prague the local Waffen-SS depots co-operated with the Army because both thought that keeping control of the Czechs was the most important thing. When Hitler appointed Himmler head of the Ersatzheer in place of Fromm, the heroic Reichsfuhrer-SS delayed going to Berlin for 24 hours until he was sure he was safe, so he was hardly likely to have given a strong lead if Hitler had been killed. In Berlin Goebbels ordered the Waffen-SS units at the depot of 1st SS Panzer Division to remain in their depot at Lichterfeld lest their presence provoked a clash with the army. Otto Skorzeny turned up with his special forces only as the coup was ending.

In short, with the exception of Goebbels', whose finest hour this may have been, the entire Nazi apparatus was pretty much paralysed throughout the coup. The coup was in reality put down exclusively by Ersatzheer units.

Cheers,

Fawlty Towers, the best hotel at your service.
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 02:22
How was that Goebbels finest hour?
And it's a shame that General Bittrich and his corps weren't there at the time.
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 02:35
And it's a shame that General Bittrich and his corps weren't there at the time.

It is a shame that id did not work. The world would be a different one if it had. It would not have been a perfect world but things would be different after th epeace (East/West relations, no USSR occupied Eastern EU and no sattelite states of it).
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 02:42
It is a shame that id did not work. The world would be a different one if it had. It would not have been a perfect world but things would be different after th epeace (East/West relations, no USSR occupied Eastern EU and no sattelite states of it).
Well yes. Of course. I just meant that Bittrich strikes me as a man of action. He was strict against Hitler and his regime. Eventhough he commanded a SS corps. On july 16 before the assasination attempt Rommel informed him about the coupe. He immediatly pledged his allegiance with Rommel and the other conspiritors. And his officers thought the same. Having a highly decorated SS general with them might have made a difference. As one big fear of the conspirators was stiff resistance from the SS.
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 02:48
What do you think of my toughts/facts that I posted?
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 02:51
What do you think of my toughts/facts that I posted?
They look ok. As far as I can tell......
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 02:57
Do you know this site? http://forum.axishistory.com/

Feel free to join, I find it one of the best, specially because there are posters from all continents and some writers like Kershaw and Guido Knop that post there to.
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 03:00
Do you know this site? http://forum.axishistory.com/

Feel free to join, I find it one of the best, specially because there are posters from all continents and some writers like Kershaw and Guido Knop that post there to.
Yes. I know it. And it´s Knopp. With 2 P´s. ;) And I´m VW´s puppet.
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 03:04
Yes. I know it. And it´s Knopp. With 2 P´s. ;) And I´m VW´s puppet.

Nice, how are you!!! Greetings :fluffle:
But it is bed time here, will see you again on NS. To be sure to see your posts again I will use the buddy list.

All the best,

"Groscurth" (on the mentioned site)
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 03:04
Nice, how are you!!! Greetings :fluffle:
But it is bed time here, will see you again on NS. To be sure to see your posts again I will use the buddy list.

All the best,

"Groscurth" (on the mentioned site)
I´m good. Nighty night. I´ll have another beer.
Mr Basil Fawlty
25-09-2004, 03:06
Nighty night. I´ll have another beer.

I hope that it is a real "Pilsener" from Pilzen. Hope you have a Urquell or so in hands. Prosit!
The Cocytus
25-09-2004, 03:09
You know what Ive always wondered about Hitler?

What made him think that such a far-fetched idea, would actually work?
Killing all the Jews he could lay his hands on....creating a race of "Aryan Supermen", and global domination would actually succeed?

Did he really think that The United States and Russia would just roll over?

What made him, and those who supported him buy into that crap?

Yes, he did. He made a secret alliance with Russia, and everyone else in the West was pulling a France and appeasing Hitler.

If he never invaded Russia when the word of the alliance got out, my money would be that he would have won WWII if he was not assassinated.
Jever Pilsener
25-09-2004, 03:10
I hope that it is a real "Pilsener" from Pilzen. Hope you have a Urquell or so in hands. Prosit!
:D Unfortunatly it´s just a 37 cent Euroshopper beer. But as far as cheap beers go it´s pretty good.
Mr Basil Fawlty
06-10-2004, 15:48
Hitlers star general and later a fieldmarschall also had contacts with the resistance, so did Stülpnagel and Von Kluge.
Demented Hamsters
06-10-2004, 16:17
I've never taken the German assassination plots of Hitler seriously. They had the opportunity enough times but they lacked the balls to do it. Take the most famous one - the bomb they brought into the brifeing room then left before it went off.
If they were real serious about making sure, one of them would have walked up to Hitler and set it off right next to him. Sure both would be dead, but surely the sacrifice would have been worth it. The fact none of them tried this (or even just shooting Hitler point-blank) shows, to me at least, they weren't that committed to their ideals of removing Hitler and sueing for peace.
Bunnyducks
06-10-2004, 16:21
So, basically you are in favour of suicide bombers?
Demented Hamsters
07-10-2004, 14:55
So, basically you are in favour of suicide bombers?
If it means taking out a meglamaniacal dictator, hellbent on war with the World and the entire destruction of several races of ppl, then yes I do.
Yo gotta problem wit dat? :)