NationStates Jolt Archive

do you believe that women have as much right as men to pursue careers and their own objectives?

or do you belive that men are the only ones who are allowed to have fun and do something with their lives other than procreate?

why is it selfish for a woman to want a career and then have a family later, but it's not selfish for a man to do the exact same thing?

hell, why is it that men can have all the sex they want with multiple partners yet when women do so, they're sluts?

why is it that men are permitted to age and get fat without ridicule, yet it a woman gets a wrinkle and puts on 10 lbs, she's an old cow?

Yes, they deserve EQUAL rights, not more rights than males like a few of them are trying to get. Now notice I said a few, that means not many.

i don't know anyone who wants more rights than men. hell, some are happy to settle for less than equal so long as there's something...

When did you start to assume that any two humans are equal?

when did you start to assume that one human deserves a better shot at something for something that they can't control?

You can't change personal opinion, so I don't see how you can view putting on ten pounds a few wrinkles as a right the government should protect. Same goes with sleeping around.
Further, women have a shorter space of oppurtunity to reproduce, and thus need to make their move sooner. Additionally, women suffer more negative health affects from being pregnant.
It's the way life works, get over it and COOK ME MY DINNER!
And don't put so much cyanide in it this time, it's hard on my teeth.

you are aware that the female sexual peak is in the 30's, right? while the male sexual peak is at 18. therefore there is nothing really wrong with me waiting until i have an established career and am thus able to better support children than when i'm 20.

and no, how about you stay at home and look after the kids while i have a career outside the house and you can cook me my dinner and fetch me my slippers, damnit. these heels are killing me.

i dont think that women deserve more rights then men then men would be whining like some of the women are right now havent people heard we are all created equal by god not just male and female but colors to
and before some one says something about what sex of person wrote this it was a lady so i can say that women are whining

and before some one says something about what sex of person wrote this it was a lady so i can say that women are whining
with good cause, many corporations refuse to promote women to managerial positions, we earn 70 cents for every dollar a man makes. hell, in my chosen field, only 10% of the jobs are occupied by women. only 1% of the well-paying jobs are occupied by women.

you are aware that the female sexual peak is in the 30's, right? while the male sexual peak is at 18. therefore there is nothing really wrong with me waiting until i have an established career and am thus able to better support children than when i'm 20.
Fine, whatever. The woman still has to carry the child to term, and birth complications are more likely at higher ages (as in, older than 20 something).

and no, how about you stay at home and look after the kids while i have a career outside the house and you can cook me my dinner and fetch me my slippers, damnit. these heels are killing me.
I was making a joke, you see? Sexist bastard complaining about cyanide in his food, any of this getting through to you? Hellooo?!?

when did you start to assume that one human deserves a better shot at something for something that they can't control?

Each of us deserves EXACTLY what they can take in life. No more, no less.

Fine, whatever. The woman still has to carry the child to term, and birth complications are more likely at higher ages (as in, older than 20 something).

my mom did just fine and she had her last kid at 36. her first at 29.

I was making a joke, you see? Sexist bastard complaining about cyanide in his food, any of this getting through to you? Hellooo?!?

as was i... but you can still make me dinner and get me some slippers.

Each of us deserves EXACTLY what they can take in life. No more, no less.

and what evidence do you have to suggest that women can't handle the working world exactly?

I said "NO"
Because you always have to have someone to say "No".

I said "NO"
Because you always have to have someone to say "No".

no you don't...

and no, how about you stay at home and look after the kids while i have a career outside the house and you can cook me my dinner and fetch me my slippers, damnit. these heels are killing me.

As a [male] feminist, I completely agree with you, and there's a 40% chance I'll probably end up being the homemaker in my [current and hopefully lasting] relationship, and a 100% chance that if I'm not, we'll split the work and home duties.

That being said, you do a disservice to feminism and women by *walking around in heels*.
Heels are pointless ugly contraptions, and they are a bitch to walk around in.

(I also have something against makeup et al, but then again, I have no problem when men wear makeup/heels. Perhaps that's its own sort of sexist double standard, or maybe I hate seeing women constantly thinking of themselves as ugly and in need of cumbersome 'beautifications', and enjoy seeing men act like queens...
Allow me to reiterate that I am a heterosexual male.)

and what evidence do you have to suggest that women can't handle the working world exactly?

Im work with women who are my equal. In the work environment.

No two humans can be equal. To be so they would have to be identical I would like to think that there is some reason I interact with them.

As a [male] feminist, I completely agree with you, and there's a 40% chance I'll probably end up being the homemaker in my [current and hopefully lasting]relationship, and a 100% chance that if I'm not, we'll split the work and home duties.

*applauds*

That being said, you do a disservice to feminism and women by *walking around in heels*.
Heels are pointless ugly contraptions, and they are a bitch to walk around in.

i disagree on the ugly aspect, unless we're talking about those stupid triangle toed ones, i don't know about you, but my feet aren't triangular.
but yeah, i don't actually weat heels much at all. i have a pair of shoes that have a tiny bit of a platform that make me about an inch taller and when it comes to really dressy kinds of occasions, i'll put on some sandal-heels which i don't mind because then i don't have to wear panyhose (which is truly the big pain in the ass) however, i find i can walk and even run perfectly fine in heels so long as the ground's hard...

(I also have something against makeup et al, but then again, I have no problem when men wear makeup/heels. Perhaps that's its own sort of sexist double standard, or maybe I hate seeing women constantly thinking of themselves as ugly and in need of cumbersome 'beautifications', and enjoy seeing men act like queens...
Allow me to reiterate that I am a heterosexual male.)

i don't wear makeup much either... mostly i do so when i feel like playing with it or when i feel like getting all specially done up for whatever reason...
and believe me, i wouldn't have the slightest problem if men wore makeup and heels. or plucked their eyebrows...

and i ahve to go to bed... can't be doing this kind of thing when i'm going to have to go to bed at a reasonable hour tomorrow night for school.

do you believe that women have as much right as men to pursue careers and their own objectives?
Of course


or do you belive that men are the only ones who are allowed to have fun and do something with their lives other than procreate?
Leading and improperly structured question. Not to mention last time I participated in the act of procreation I found it to be not seperate from fun.


why is it selfish for a woman to want a career and then have a family later, but it's not selfish for a man to do the exact same thing?

There is nothing selfish about it - unless she expects, after raising her faimly, to re-enter the workforce at a level higher than she left at. (Meaning that in fairness she would be at a lower income/seniority than men her own age, giving rise to misleading statistics)

If she would rather work than raise her family - delegating the children to daycare so she could pursue her professional interests - then that would be selfish. (Unless the father opted to be the stay-at-home parent - Children NEED to be raised by parents, not employees or businesses)


hell, why is it that men can have all the sex they want with multiple partners yet when women do so, they're sluts?

I agree, though I would argue that a man with multiple sexual partners is not really regarded as cool. It is more common these days to see him lowered in esteem and considered a user or worse. I am also reminded of an old, really unPC joke - "The difference between a slut and a bitch is that one has sex with everyone, and the other has sex with everyone but you." Though I disagree with it I still find it funny.

It is also worth noting that after marriage the field is quite level - a married man or woman with multiple sexual partners are equally considered scum.


why is it that men are permitted to age and get fat without ridicule, yet it a woman gets a wrinkle and puts on 10 lbs, she's an old cow?

According to whom? I don't recall seeing any fat bald guys on the Chip n Dales line-up.

It is noteworthy that women place different emphasis on features considered attractive. While men are, on average, more focused on the physical features of women, women are, on average, most focused on income. Is it fair that a man be judged by the size of his paycheck or net-worth statement? No more so than a woman being judged by the size of her busom.

Her are some links from a Libertarian site you may enjoy reading:

Women Fleeing the Feminist Fold (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0811roberts.html)

Has Feminism Made Good on It's Promises? (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0707roberts.html)

Outing the Feminists Great Lie (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0804roberts.html)

Those links all go to articles that are very poor. Poorly reasoned, poorly argued, lacking any constructive conclusions. One of them appears to support the 'women's movement' as opposed to 'feminism', but doesnt even attempt to clarify what the distinction between the two might be, beyond the spelling and pronounciation.

Women do deserve equal rights, but they and men are no more superior or inferior to each other

personally i don't care if an employer tries to treat me unfairly compared to men; i have skills and training that make me a very desirable employee, so any employer who tries to treat me badly will get to watch me quit and go work for the competition.

i actually enjoy when men (or women) try to tell me my place is in the home, or that i should be having babies, or that i shouldn't demand to be judged on my abilities rather than my genetalia. they are free to think that, if they choose, and free to live their petty lives in as repressed a manner as they like. meanwhile, i am having a wonderful life, a blossoming career, and a relationship that is so great it's almost sickening. why they think i will give all that up to produce babies is beyond me, and why they would want me to do so is likewise baffling, but it's nice of them to help me start my day with a hearty belly laugh.

Leading and improperly structured question. Not to mention last time I participated in the act of procreation I found it to be not seperate from fun.

yes, but men only have to deal with the fun part. unless you're having sympathy pains, a woman is pretty much alone in the non-fun part of reproduction.

If she would rather work than raise her family - delegating the children to daycare so she could pursue her professional interests - then that would be selfish. (Unless the father opted to be the stay-at-home parent - Children NEED to be raised by parents, not employees or businesses)

which is why i'd try to stay at home for the first five years... after that they're in school during the day anyways.

It is also worth noting that after marriage the field is quite level - a married man or woman with multiple sexual partners are equally considered scum.

this is true.

It is noteworthy that women place different emphasis on features considered attractive. While men are, on average, more focused on the physical features of women, women are, on average, most focused on income. Is it fair that a man be judged by the size of his paycheck or net-worth statement? No more so than a woman being judged by the size of her busom.

wtf? women aren't just after money, ass.

Her are some links from a Libertarian site you may enjoy reading:

Women Fleeing the Feminist Fold (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0811roberts.html)

Has Feminism Made Good on It's Promises? (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0707roberts.html)

Outing the Feminists Great Lie (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0804roberts.html)

i'll look at them now... though based on the reaction of other posters...

wtf?

for one thing, there are societies where gender roles are completely reversed. i once read about a tribe where men stay at home and look after the children and the women are responsable for the manual labour and the like.

there are also nomadic soceities where men and women were considered equal, the !kuing tribe for instance, women had equal status, until they were forced to settle down, then the men stayed out of the home and the women grew depressed after staying inside the home to raise children. alcoholism soars with the depression... yes, what a healthy society it is now.

the people who write these articles seem to focus only on the so-called femi-nazis, rather than those who believe in actual equality. they seem not to know the difference, and to suggest that women in the workplace is the cause of divorce and the dissolving of the nuclear family is rediculous.

I believe in complete equal rights. If a man can, a woman should be able to, is a woman can, a man should be able to (except for natural differences, such as pregnancy). Women should be paid equally, but should be able to be drafted too.

Women should be paid equally, but should be able to be drafted too.

fine by me. i can't remember when canada has ever drafted people..

Each of us deserves EXACTLY what they can take in life. No more, no less.

Why? Why is "might makes right" a good idea? It sounds brutal and counterproductive to me.

there are also nomadic soceities where men and women were considered equal, the !kuing tribe for instance

They were also pretty close to anarchism, as well.

I see you followed the linkies Dakini....

Drafting women....may I ask do we send the pregnant ones to the front line, force birthcontrol on all draftable women, or just have enforced abortions when drafted women are found to be pregnent? And since everything to be equal must be the same (the only logic I can imagine such an argument was premised on), when will the scientist get off their chuffs and invent a narcotic that will reproduce the effects of menstruation for men (who will all be drafted to take it like it or not) and also the drug that ensures men experiance the exact same pregnancy effects as their spouses......? Also when do we get underway with the program to equalise rape opportunities, men are sick of not being raped in the same numbers as women, they want their share too....something must be done to end the equality now, and clearly two things cannot be different and yet equal, which is why scientist are right now working on a GE alternative to human life, consisting of a bunch of identical clones, true equality is coming...
By the way, will women be drafted before or after the group of politicos deciding questions of war are equally comprised of women as they are of men.....?

Drafting women....may I ask do we send the pregnant ones to the front line, force birthcontrol on all draftable women, or just have enforced abortions when drafted women are found to be pregnent?

no, that's stupid... obviously you're not going to send a pregnant woman to possible death, especially if she's far enough along that the pregnancy could impede her mobility making her an easier kill. it's also unfair to force birth control on all women who could potentially be drafted, as not all of them would be drafted for certain, and after they're drafted, when are they going to have time to be havign sex?
and forcing an abortion on someone is clearly a violation of her right to choose.

And since everything to be equal must be the same (the only logic I can imagine such an argument was premised on), when will the scientist get off their chuffs and invent a narcotic that will reproduce the effects of menstruation for men (who will all be drafted to take it like it or not) and also the drug that ensures men experiance the exact same pregnancy effects as their spouses......?

equal but different... and aside from that, if you haven't noticed, this thread is about equal opportunity in the workplace, not equality when it comes to physical pain and discomfort... hell, when i'm 50 i don't want a doctor to have to examine a prostate that doesn't exist just like i'm sure a man wouldn't want a speculum shoved up somewhere with a doctor poking at a non-existant cervix...

Also when do we get underway with the program to equalise rape opportunities, men are sick of not being raped in the same numbers as women, they want their share too...

raping anyone is deplorable... whether it's men raping women, women raping men, men raping men... i'm not sure if women can really rape other women... but yeah, if anything, we should work together so that acts of violence against both genders goes down.

something must be done to end the equality now, and clearly two things cannot be different and yet equal, which is why scientist are right now working on a GE alternative to human life, consisting of a bunch of identical clones, true equality is coming...

umm... right, i think you missed the point of the thread... i'm aware that men and women aren't the same, but that doesn't mean that we don't each deserve equal opportunity to prove our capabilities in the workplace, whether it be managing a coropration or research or whatever, a woman can do anything a man can do (except sperm donation of course, and autograph the snow with urine) and we deserve to be looked upon as equals in the workplace.

By the way, will women be drafted before or after the group of politicos deciding questions of war are equally comprised of women as they are of men.....?

hmm... well, in many countries, they're getting better at having more women representatives...

no, that's stupid... obviously you're not going to send a pregnant woman to possible death, especially if she's far enough along that the pregnancy could impede her mobility making her an easier kill. it's also unfair to force birth control on all women who could potentially be drafted, as not all of them would be drafted for certain, and after they're drafted, when are they going to have time to be havign sex?
and forcing an abortion on someone is clearly a violation of her right to choose.
I agree that it is wrong to force abortion or birth control on women, but if you draft women then what are you going to do to stop them getting pregnant just to get out of being drafted, as for not having sex, when they draft you, they dont come to where you are, announce 'you are drafted' and take you away there and then. Further women can and do become pregnant while on active duty, even those apparently busily engaged in torturing Iraqi prisoners apparently have time for hanky panky on the side.......
equal but different... and aside from that, if you haven't noticed, this thread is about equal opportunity in the workplace, not equality when it comes to physical pain and discomfort... hell, when i'm 50 i don't want a doctor to have to examine a prostate that doesn't exist just like i'm sure a man wouldn't want a speculum shoved up somewhere with a doctor poking at a non-existant cervix...
Equal but different is acually my point. The point is that physical differences dont go away just because of ideology.
raping anyone is deplorable... whether it's men raping women, women raping men, men raping men... i'm not sure if women can really rape other women... but yeah, if anything, we should work together so that acts of violence against both genders goes down.
OF course rape is deplorable, but so is war. The fact is certain physical differences exist, certain differences may well exist in terms of mentality as a result of biological function, but even were this not so certain differences do exist in terms of mentality as a result of being encultured. Obviously it is ideal to get rid of acts of violence, but were we able to succeed in this goal, arguing about a draft would be irrelevent, because war is an act of violence.
umm... right, i think you missed the point of the thread... i'm aware that men and women aren't the same, but that doesn't mean that we don't each deserve equal opportunity to prove our capabilities in the workplace, whether it be managing a coropration or research or whatever, a woman can do anything a man can do (except sperm donation of course, and autograph the snow with urine) and we deserve to be looked upon as equals in the workplace.
Being looked at as equals does not mean being treated identically, arguabley treating two different people the same can be treating them unequally. The fact that women do bear children is entirely significant when deciding whether or not to force them to go to war. You either have to choose to draft women regardless of pregnancy, or force them to abstain from becoming pregnant, both of which you have indicated is not acceptable to you.

I agree that it is wrong to force abortion or birth control on women, but if you draft women then what are you going to do to stop them getting pregnant just to get out of being drafted, as for not having sex, when they draft you, they dont come to where you are, announce 'you are drafted' and take you away there and then. Further women can and do become pregnant while on active duty, even those apparently busily engaged in torturing Iraqi prisoners apparently have time for hanky panky on the side.......

it doesn't mean you can force them to take hormone pills. some women can't even take the pill because they get extremely nauseus. and there can be a rule that in the event of a pregnancy, there is a set amount of time to give birth and breast feed, and then it's off to train for battle that way, pregnancy only delays teh draft.

Being looked at as equals does not mean being treated identically, arguabley treating two different people the same can be treating them unequally. The fact that women do bear children is entirely significant when deciding whether or not to force them to go to war. You either have to choose to draft women regardless of pregnancy, or force them to abstain from becoming pregnant, both of which you have indicated is not acceptable to you.

i said putting pregnant women on the front lines is stupid. waiting a year for them to go won't kill anyone.

OF course rape is deplorable, but so is war. The fact is certain physical differences exist, certain differences may well exist in terms of mentality as a result of biological function, but even were this not so certain differences do exist in terms of mentality as a result of being encultured. Obviously it is ideal to get rid of acts of violence, but were we able to succeed in this goal, arguing about a draft would be irrelevent, because war is an act of violence.

i don't know why this didn't quote with the rest...

and the differences in mentality are more likely because that's what people have been taught. many rapists were raped or molested themselves as children, sometimes by women.. many had domineering female influences growing up, many were just raised to believe that women are worth less than men. similarly, many women are raised to feel that they're worth less than men. however, if we were to teach children from a young age that everyone is equally deserving of a chance, of respect, then perhaps the numbers would decrease.

also, i don't support a draft in the first place, though if there is one, it's only fair that it's an equal opportunity draft where women have as much chance as men do to be forced to go to war. hell, i don't even support war, it's something that should be entered into as a last resort or self defense. and i don't mean the bullshit "they have weapons of mass destruction that they can deploy within 45 mins to kill us." i mean like "we're under attack, let's fight back."

it doesn't mean you can force them to take hormone pills. some women can't even take the pill because they get extremely nauseus.
Actually you can force people to take hormones even if it makes them nauseus, the point is not whether or not you can (because you can), but whether or not you should (because you shouldnt).

and there can be a rule that in the event of a pregnancy, there is a set amount of time to give birth and breast feed, and then it's off to train for battle that way, pregnancy only delays teh draft.
And off to war leaving who to take care of an infant. I think it's bad enough being born in a time of war, let alone having your mother dragged unwillingly off to the front line within a 'set amount of time', and who decides about the appropriate time for breast feeding, their is no ideal set time and how long mother's breast feed (if at all) is a matter of personal choice (although often coincides with cultural norms, such norms being constantly subject to change as all aspects of culture are).

i said putting pregnant women on the front lines is stupid. waiting a year for them to go won't kill anyone.
Yes but you provide no alternative solution to drafting women, which would not allow some irresponsible women to use pregnancy as an excuse (oops I just popped up in the draft better open the legs quick), while only responsible women are left with the burden of being drafted (oh I might get drafted, I dont think my husband and I should plan a baby right now)...
The fact is a war is disruptive enough to society without implementing the very radical measures that would have to undertaken in order to come up with a fair practical system under which women could be drafted. (by the way I missed half your earlier post on the first reading, and re-edited my earlier post to take it into account).

On the flip side, here are some questions...

Why is it being deadbeat if a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad and his wife works instead? Why is that looked down upon?

Why, if mothers get maternity leave, can't fathers get paternity leave without disdain?

Why is it that in a custody battle, even if the father would very clearly be the better parent, the mother so often gets the child anyway, and the child suffers for this?

Why, if a man is raped (and this DOES happen, folks, and DON'T laugh), or a victim of domestic abuse, is it blamed completely on him, and he is ridiculed instead of given the help that "battered women" are?

do you believe that women have as much right as men to pursue careers and their own objectives?

Absolutely. And of course, women's liberation doesn't stop with the career.

or do you belive that men are the only ones who are allowed to have fun and do something with their lives other than procreate?

Certainly not.

why is it selfish for a woman to want a career and then have a family later, but it's not selfish for a man to do the exact same thing?

Because men are still trying to get women to be their slaves. Come to think of it, there's never anything "selfish" about having children, unless you're a man who expects to have "his woman" take care of them. Being a parent means giving up a lot of your selfish pleasures, which is of course why population growth tends to zero in consumer societies: it's the "stuff not kids" method of population control.

hell, why is it that men can have all the sex they want with multiple partners yet when women do so, they're sluts?

Yes, what a stupid double standard.

why is it that men are permitted to age and get fat without ridicule, yet it a woman gets a wrinkle and puts on 10 lbs, she's an old cow?

I really wish we could get over that, too. It makes me feel terrible that my partner frets over these little things. She is so beautiful, but no matter how I try to tell her, it seems she's not allowed to think so! On the other hand, she's relaxed a bit since we started dating... she's gained a few pounds (and frets about it), but I think she's adorable... and she's stopped talking about stupid plastic surgery!! Whew!!

Yes, they deserve EQUAL rights, not more rights than males like a few of them are trying to get.

Really? I don't see many women (if any) demanding "more" rights than men... generally they have a hard enough time enforcing equal rights.

On the other hand, remember that equal rights does not necessarily entail equal treatment. Both men and women have a right to suspend work duties because of illness or, more generally, physical condition. If "extra" leeway must be given to women for pregnancy, then this is because it is a condition that requires more attention than most male issues!!

Of course, equal rights does mean that whatever employers are required to do for pregnancy, they should also allow for relatively long-term illnesses or firm family commitments -- for both sexes. And I think that is a fantastic idea.

i don't know why this didn't quote with the rest...
mmm, go figure, it is my sincere belief that despite posing as being stable and reliable the internet is infinately screwy...at least you can blame your ommission on a technical fault, I just somehow managed to not see half of your earlier post.....

and the differences in mentality are more likely because that's what people have been taught.
A problem that has plagued scientist of the highest calibre, none the less regardless of how those differences come to be they exist. Is it anymore fair to tell women to be as men despite the differences as a result of society engineering those differences.

many rapists were raped or molested themselves as children, sometimes by women.. many had domineering female influences growing up, many were just raised to believe that women are worth less than men. similarly, many women are raised to feel that they're worth less than men.
That does not change the fact that women are subject to pregnancy, that the frontline of a battle is no place for a pregnant women, nor that socieity or biology or some admixture of the two makes men and women different, and that such a difference must be considered if they are to be treated equally.

'however, if we were to teach children from a young age that everyone is equally deserving of a chance, of respect, then perhaps the numbers would decrease.
we cant teach 'our' children, because they are not yours and mine. They are raised by thier own parents and so our ability to influence their upbringing is limited to the level of social engineering our politicians and citizens are willing to see employed.

also, i don't support a draft in the first place, though if there is one, it's only fair that it's an equal opportunity draft where women have as much chance as men do to be forced to go to war.
I dont support the draft either. Forget fair for a moment and consider pragmatism. If 2 nations were involved in a protracted war, facing equal loses but one had all their women at home reproducing as per normal and the other had significantly reduced the national fertility rate by drafting women, who do you think will eventually win? Regardless the notion that equality consists of forcing mens' roles onto women despite their having been encultured or biologically predisposed to differences in mentality, and the clear evidence of the effect this would have on their reproductive rights, not to mention that war is a physical activity and women are undeniably physically different, is one that no one yet has convinced me of.....although there is always a first time for everything......

Ok, I think I replied to your whole post....if I missed something out, I'm going to pretend the internet did it to me.....(although I suspect my habit of missing things out might dent my credibilty on this issue.....)

Why is it being deadbeat if a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad and his wife works instead? Why is that looked down upon?

it's looked down upon? i wouldn't call such a man a deadbeat unless he's just not working because he's lazy, but if a couple can afford to live on a single income, then all the power to whoever wants to stay home.

Why, if mothers get maternity leave, can't fathers get paternity leave without disdain?

well, for one thing, there is parental leave (here at least) so that either parent could stay at home after the child is born. women pretty much have to take it easy for the last couple months of pregnancy though, whereas the work doesn't start for men until after the kid's born. but yeah, if a man wants to take time out of work to look after a kid, then again, i'm all for it.

Why is it that in a custody battle, even if the father would very clearly be the better parent, the mother so often gets the child anyway, and the child suffers for this?

if the father is so clearly the better parent, then he'd win the battle...
don't they let kids choose who they want to stay with after the age of 6 anyways?

Why, if a man is raped (and this DOES happen, folks, and DON'T laugh), or a victim of domestic abuse, is it blamed completely on him, and he is ridiculed instead of given the help that "battered women" are?

anyone who blames the victim of an assault is stupid. i am aware that men do get raped and beaten up by spouses. generally isn't it more of a machismo that keeps them from reporting it or seekign help though? the same kind of machismo that makes some men uncomfortable with their spouse earning more money than them.
the reason that there isn't the amount of support for battered men as there is for battered women is that it's not nearly as likely for a woman to beat up on her husband as the other way around.

You can't change personal opinion, so I don't see how you can view putting on ten pounds a few wrinkles as a right the government should protect. Same goes with sleeping around.

It is true that you cannot change opinions directly -- you can't legislate what is in people's heads. However, there are some things a government can do:

1. Finally pass an Equal Rights Amendment. That kind of statement, planted in the Constitution, will have wide-ranging effects on the way people think about women. (Not that we should need it, being that the Constitution already has several points that suggest all people be treated equally... but for some reason the Supreme Court has failed to interpret all people to include "women.)

2. Further, women have a shorter space of oppurtunity to reproduce, and thus need to make their move sooner.

Even if this is true, which -- given the state of medical science -- seems increasingly less likely... so what? You are talking about personal decisions in a woman's life, not something that needs to be enforced by society!! My partner and I do not plan on having children -- ever. Other women may realize that the longer they wait, the smaller their chances of being successful... and be ok with that risk.

Moreover, if having children is something that our society considers important (and, population concerns aside, I don't see why it should be), then we have an obligation to make the transition from early motherhood, if that is what a woman chooses, to career as easy as possible. Many women, however, find that it is difficult to enter school, or a career track, after having spent several years out of the loop. There are programs that can be implemented to alleviate this -- and if you think about it, there are men that would be helped as well.

Additionally, women suffer more negative health affects from being pregnant.

SOOO???

It's the way life works, get over it and COOK ME MY DINNER!
And don't put so much cyanide in it this time, it's hard on my teeth.

Let's hope you're joking. However, if you are, you may realize that humor has been a clever ploy of conservatives since time immemorial. Clever, since they tend to ridicule "both sides," including their own, making it hard to criticize... while it's effects are plain. By making the issue itself appear ridiculous, you make discussion look ridiculous... and without discussion, the inevitable fallback point is the status quo.

So, think before you joke.
:)

Fine, whatever. The woman still has to carry the child to term, and birth complications are more likely at higher ages (as in, older than 20 something).

Again, so what. Personal decisions, you see.

I was making a joke, you see? Sexist bastard complaining about cyanide in his food, any of this getting through to you? Hellooo?!?

My previous comment is worth repeating: Political jokes tend to serve a conservative purpose, because by making a joke of the issue -- whether the joke is directed at yourself or not -- you make a joke of those who want to discuss it seriously, i.e. the people who want to change things.

Why is it being deadbeat if a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad and his wife works instead? Why is that looked down upon?
Considered by whom, I have nothing but respect for the stay at home fathers I know, and no one I know has ever expressed a different view to my own on this matter. I'm sure there are people out there that think this, but there are also people out there that think we are decended from clams....

Why, if mothers get maternity leave, can't fathers get paternity leave without disdain?
Father's should be able to get paternaty leave. The reasons they do not are largely economic.

Why is it that in a custody battle, even if the father would very clearly be the better parent, the mother so often gets the child anyway, and the child suffers for this?
I suggest the reason the child suffers is obvious, going with the least apt parent is unlikely to result in anything else. Why do men get custody, because of encultured ideas about 'norms'.

Why, if a man is raped (and this DOES happen, folks, and DON'T laugh), or a victim of domestic abuse, is it blamed completely on him, and he is ridiculed instead of given the help that "battered women" are?
Firstly men are not always blamed in the circumstances you mention, and women often are blamed and ridiculed in the same circumstances. People have funny attitudes about both rape and domestic violence.

Actually you can force people to take hormones even if it makes them nauseus, the point is not whether or not you can (because you can), but whether or not you should (because you shouldnt).

well, you shouldn't. i know people who got nauseous shortly after the pill was taken, thus vomiting up the pill and such. though i'm not sure if depo prova has the same effects..
but at any rate, you can't and shouldn't force someone onto medication they don't particularly need against their will.

And off to war leaving who to take care of an infant. I think it's bad enough being born in a time of war, let alone having your mother dragged unwillingly off to the front line within a 'set amount of time', and who decides about the appropriate time for breast feeding, their is no ideal set time and how long mother's breast feed (if at all) is a matter of personal choice (although often coincides with cultural norms, such norms being constantly subject to change as all aspects of culture are).

well, do men with newborns get dragged off to war?
men can play as much of a parental role a women, the only thing they can't really do is breastfeed, but there are other ways of feeding infants.

Yes but you provide no alternative solution to drafting women, which would not allow some irresponsible women to use pregnancy as an excuse (oops I just popped up in the draft better open the legs quick), while only responsible women are left with the burden of being drafted (oh I might get drafted, I dont think my husband and I should plan a baby right now)...
The fact is a war is disruptive enough to society without implementing the very radical measures that would have to undertaken in order to come up with a fair practical system under which women could be drafted. (by the way I missed half your earlier post on the first reading, and re-edited my earlier post to take it into account).

meh, the draft is a stupid idea in the first place, but i don't see how tearing women away from their children is any worse than tearing men away from the same children. they're still left without one parent, though hopefully for a brief period of time only. and really, how many people think "oh, there's a slight chance i may get drafted, i'll put my plans on hold until then."? perhaps a 25 year old woman, recently married and settled in and her husband want to have a baby, why should they be stopped because there's a remote possibility that she may be drafted.

however, there should be some kind of rule against drafting both parents...

or just no draft whatsoever which really is ideal anyways.

If she would rather work than raise her family - delegating the children to daycare so she could pursue her professional interests - then that would be selfish. (Unless the father opted to be the stay-at-home parent - Children NEED to be raised by parents, not employees or businesses)

Really? The empirical evidence suggests that not only are children who spend some of their day in professional day care centers just as healthy, physically and mentally, as children raised by their parents alone... but they tend to get along better with peers, and to develop self-esteem less dependent on the people immediately around them.

Only recently, in relative historical time, have children been raised almost exclusively by their parents. Wealthy parents used to hire nurses and tutors... and the poor lived with extended families, grandparents, aunts and uncles, who would care for them while Mom and Dad were out.

It is noteworthy that women place different emphasis on features considered attractive. While men are, on average, more focused on the physical features of women, women are, on average, most focused on income. Is it fair that a man be judged by the size of his paycheck or net-worth statement? No more so than a woman being judged by the size of her busom.

Right. How about we work on ending both kinds of judgment?

Women should have equal opportunities, but they should not have special privileges and there should not be laws that positively discriminate in favor of them. Companies should hire on the basis of merit.

On the flip side, here are some questions...

Why is it being deadbeat if a man wants to be a stay-at-home dad and his wife works instead? Why is that looked down upon?

Because the male society has to enforce the stereotype on would-be "traitors" to the cause of male supremacy. If men start breaking gender barriers, it'll only make it easier for the women...

Why, if mothers get maternity leave, can't fathers get paternity leave without disdain?

They should be able to. Since it's less politically correct to criticize a woman for deciding to have a child and taking maternity leave, we criticize a father who would do the same... but the real effect is to make sure everyone knows that taking off from work to have a child is not acceptable behavior for an employee... and this is really meant to apply to women.

Why is it that in a custody battle, even if the father would very clearly be the better parent, the mother so often gets the child anyway, and the child suffers for this?

Hey, we should have passed that Equal Rights Amendment in the 70s... would have done away with that. Equal rights means equal rights -- the better parent would always get the child.

Why, if a man is raped (and this DOES happen, folks, and DON'T laugh), or a victim of domestic abuse, is it blamed completely on him, and he is ridiculed instead of given the help that "battered women" are?

A sad situation... which should be remedied. And, don't think women commonly get help. When a girl was raped at my undergraduate institution several years ago, the police aggressively tried to talk her into believing that she had done something to encourage or allow it. When she told them she was raped, do you know what they're first question was, before such obvious things as "are you injured," or "which way did he go?" ....... It was, "were you drinking?"

well, you shouldn't. i know people who got nauseous shortly after the pill was taken, thus vomiting up the pill and such. though i'm not sure if depo prova has the same effects..
but at any rate, you can't and shouldn't force someone onto medication they don't particularly need against their will.
Once again I have to point out that you can indeed force people to take medication. Which is why drafting women is so problamatic. Trust me start drafting women and some women will get pregnent to either get their tour cut short or to get out of the draft before they even leave. Considering the reactionaries around the place (question the need for a war and you are a traitor in many people's eyes), how long before the 'draft dodgin' is ended by enforced birth control.....

well, do men with newborns get dragged off to war?
men can play as much of a parental role a women, the only thing they can't really do is breastfeed, but there are other ways of feeding infants.
Yes men do get dragged off to war, but whether or not they are make equally good parents to infants is debatable. Evidently the choice to breastfeed is surely one better made by parents than a draft board. The fact is men and women are differently encultured, if you made society gender nuetral tomorrow we would still have decades and decades of adult who had been encultured into gender roles, including that of motherhood. I dont doubt that many fathers are able to single handedly care for an infant, any more than I doubt than some mothers cannot achieve this task, but I do beleive that in our current society more women can adequately do this task than men, if only as a result of encultured differences.

meh, the draft is a stupid idea in the first place, but i don't see how tearing women away from their children is any worse than tearing men away from the same children.
Well then you are ignoring the current reality. Of all the parents I know those who achieve excellence in the caring for of infants could be described as being mostly women, whilst those who are in my opinion crap parents (and there are thankfully few of these, although more than nill is too many) could be described as mostly men. There are members of both genders all across the scales, but for whatever reason women make good parents and men poor parents in greater numbers than vice versa.

they're still left without one parent, though hopefully for a brief period of time only.
Yes and so far we have no studies that indicate that all other things being equal an infant is equally disadvantaged by the loss of either parent. There are sound biological reasons for mooting otherwise. Are we to force seperation immediately or rip a new born from the mother it just bonded with. All evidence suggests that within a few days of life babies are more bonded with the maternal parent. That may not fit ideologies or what have you, but babies dont exist to fufull our ideological preferences.

and really, how many people think "oh, there's a slight chance i may get drafted, i'll put my plans on hold until then."?
I guess only the responsible ones, the ones with a commitment to family and country, the ones that we least can afford to loose on the front line.

however, there should be some kind of rule against drafting both parents...
That would limit the numbers too much I suspect and place an unfair burden on single non-fathers, a great many of whom might suddenly find a desire for fatherhood....

i don't see why people claim it is selfish for either parent, man or woman, to decide to pursue a career and place their children in daycare. i was a latchkey kid my whole young life, and i think it made me a stronger, healthier, and more capable person; i would put my kids in daycare even if my partner or i were able to stay home with them, because i think it is a better environment and will help them be more independent people.

the fact that both my parents work is a source of strength and pride for me. i would never have wanted either of them to be "stay-at-home" parents, and i was always proud to tell friends or classmates about my parents' careers. i don't understand where people get the idea that daycare is damaging or a negative choice for a child, or why anybody builds a household so complicated and poorly designed that it requires a full-time stay-at-home parent to keep things running.

Of course, women deserve as much rights as men.
The problem is that over the last 20 000 years or so, we have developped a culture in the west that makes the Man the master of the family and the woman the slave. This can not be undone over night.
There is still a long way to go before the women have equal rights. We are still barbaric. The path to the change starts from education. People must be educated to think of the woman as an equal human.

*sigh*

i don't know what should be done with respect to drafting women.

however, i don't think that women are always the better parents. i think my dad was a better parent, though he would always try to help out a bit too much, he still does... hell, last year when i was in second year university he volunteered to drive me out to the middle of the country for my astronomy project... and he went about searching for the least light polluted skies while he was at it...

my mom never wanted to have kids though. and she wasn't very good at encouraging me or my sisters to do things we like. she's always on about how we need to have jobs that make a lot of money and she's laughed at me and lectured me about the worthlessness of some jobs and fields i've been interested in.

though it is probably best to have both parents around at any rate... or at least two adult role models of some sort around. if only because i would imagine that a single parent would be facing a lot more stress than someone who has a partner to help them out and kids tend to be able to tell when someone's stressed...

The path to the change starts from education. People must be educated to think of the woman as an equal human.

exactly. education is key for everything... well, at least stopping discrimination... and you know, advancing discoveries and the like.

i don't know what should be done with respect to drafting women.
My guess would be dont draft them.

however, i don't think that women are always the better parents.
Neither do I.

exactly. education is key for everything... well, at least stopping discrimination... and you know, advancing discoveries and the like.
Discrimination will not end while there are people who think men are superior.