NationStates Jolt Archive

Here they go:

Why is Kerry a flip-flopper for voting for, then against two differing versions of the $87 War appropriations bill, but the majority of Congress, who voted against, then for, those bills get a free pass?

Why is it Kerry's fault that the troops didn't get their body armor, when it was the bill he voted against that PASSED that failed to get the men and women their armor.

Why do conservatives think that if the bill Kerry voted against failed to pass, then our troops wouldn't have gotten funding? Every rational person knows that another appropriations bill would have been put forth almost immediately.

Why won't anyone answer those points directly? The only responses I've ever get is: I don't listen to liberal propaganda. I didn't realize that how Congress functions is an act of liberal propaganda

Now watch this denial.

hopefully you just mean American conservatives? Im a british one and avoid american political threads since your politics is your business and not mine;)

Because many people are too set in their opinions to even consider another point of view. They know what they beleive, they know it's true and no fact is going to get in the way of that. BTW a lot of us liberals are the same way.

you jsut used facts, logic, reason, and common sense. conservatives will avoid this thread like it was infected with AIDS

Because many people are too set in their opinions to even consider another point of view. They know what they beleive, they know it's true and no fact is going to get in the way of that. BTW a lot of us liberals are the same way.

I understand bias is nearly inescapable. It just boggles my mind that one can run away when a clear example of hypocrisy is presented. I may not be perfect, and I'm perfectly able to ignore opposing opinion, but completely ignoring something that is self-evidently true in light of the facts presented is something I avoid as much as possible.

Why won't Kerry say that instead of saying that he voted for it before he voted against it (if he has, sorry that I still don't read enough)? Seems he doesn''t know what it was about...

By the way, the effect of putting "ME" in capital letters is lost when the first letter of every word is capitalised.

Actually I don't care if kerry flip-flops or not. I have plenty of other reasons not to like him.

I'm here.

1. Its more than that for why Kerry is a flip-flopper. First hes for the patriot act, then against. First hes for the war, then against, then for again, then against, and now sorta for. The others who did get a free pass because they probably don't have record for that.

2. I don't know anything on this so um..skip?

3. Actions speak louder than words. It's got nothing to do about it comming back again, it has everything to do with him going agianst troops who are already fighting.

4. I don't see this as liberal propeganda, however I do see it as an attempt to try to explain something in favor of a man who couldnt' even get the support of his own 6 man boat back in Vietnam. How can you trust him with a nation.

Oh and to Chess Squares: I always thought it was liberal democrats that avoided reason and logic, what with them not voting for Kerry, but Against Bush. Everyone who thinks about it for more than 2 second will realize that Kerry will kill this nation. First we'll be in Iraq, then out, then back in, then were using missiles, then were deciding thats barbaric. My god. I know military personel who are scarred out of their minds with the thought of Kerry winning the election.

So there you have it. I tried my best to answer your questions.

Why won't Kerry say that instead of saying that he voted for it before he voted against it (if he has, sorry that I still don't read enough)? Seems he doesn''t know what it was about...

By the way, the effect of putting "ME" in capital letters is lost when the first letter of every word is capitalised.
You see, this is where you go beyond the sound bite. He explained it when he said the infamous quote, but the quote is all that is heard in the sound bite. If you don't understand sound bites by now........kinda dangerous.....

Answers: He is a flip flopper because he voted against the final resolution which aided our tropps when he said he would. He is also a flip flopper on abortion, gay rights, and the Iraq war. Those other members who did the same thing are not trying to attain the office of commander in chief of the largest military on the face of the earth. Kerry is. He is guilty of neglecting the troops because he voted for the democrat version of the bill which failed and then against the Republican version ( the final version) which passed. I think that if the appropriation bill failed to pass the troops would have recieved $87 billion dollars ( !!!) less to work with to SAVE LIVES in Iraq. I am rational and I know that when it comes to funding our troops in combat you don't wait for a later bill. You help the soldiers out. I have directly answered the questions.

Not one of you have answered the questions posted at the beginning of the thread.

Kerry is accused of bring a "flip-flopper" and yet, not one of you can actually tell us why, except to reiterate your opinion that he is.


WHY is he?

see the above

now you ask: WHY IS HE ? Because he wants to do anything to get elected , that's WHY...

Not only beyond the sound bite, but beyond the snarky ass way the Republicans have used the soundbite in comments of their own.

now you ask: WHY IS HE ? Because he wants to do anything to get elected , that's WHY...
And Bush won't? :rolleyes:

No Bush has morals. Have you seen the man giving the black power sign*? Have you seen him do whatever the public wants him to?

Obviously not!

And we have answered your questions! Thats the answer, the man keeps changing his damn story and his damn beliefs! For gods sake hes supposed to be a an "active catholic" as in his own words!

*note I'm black and I was offended at him doing that

And Bush won't? :rolleyes:


NO. I know where President Bush stands on abortion, Gay marriage ,and the War in Iraq. I do not know the same about Kerry.

My other reasons for hating Kerry my area was hit hardest by Hurricane Charley, President Bush came down here 3 times because it was his job. Kerry came down here 3 days after he said he was not going to come down here then quickly left because there were no cameras around to video him.

Answers: He is a flip flopper because he voted against the final resolution which aided our tropps when he said he would. He is also a flip flopper on abortion, gay rights, and the Iraq war. Those other members who did the same thing are not trying to attain the office of commander in chief of the largest military on the face of the earth. Kerry is. He is guilty of neglecting the troops because he voted for the democrat version of the bill which failed and then against the Republican version ( the final version) which passed. I think that if the appropriation bill failed to pass the troops would have recieved $87 billion dollars ( !!!) less to work with to SAVE LIVES in Iraq. I am rational and I know that when it comes to funding our troops in combat you don't wait for a later bill. You help the soldiers out. I have directly answered the questions.


Ok lets look at what you have written.

By your logic, every person who voted on that bill more than once, in any version of that bill is a "Flip-Flopper".

Therefore youre arguement isnt very good.

"Answers: He is a flip flopper because he voted against the final resolution which aided our tropps when he said he would"

So..by your logic, hes a flip-flopper becuase he did what he said he would do?

Once again, your odd sense of logic confuses me.


As for the 87 billion dollar bil....
Yes, that was on top of over 300 billion dollars.

The troops were helped out a plenty.
and Bush was against the bill that called for body armour for those troops.
"

I'm here.

1. Its more than that for why Kerry is a flip-flopper. First hes for the patriot act, then against. First hes for the war, then against, then for again, then against, and now sorta for. The others who did get a free pass because they probably don't have record for that.

2. I don't know anything on this so um..skip?

3. Actions speak louder than words. It's got nothing to do about it comming back again, it has everything to do with him going agianst troops who are already fighting.

4. I don't see this as liberal propeganda, however I do see it as an attempt to try to explain something in favor of a man who couldnt' even get the support of his own 6 man boat back in Vietnam. How can you trust him with a nation.

Oh and to Chess Squares: I always thought it was liberal democrats that avoided reason and logic, what with them not voting for Kerry, but Against Bush. Everyone who thinks about it for more than 2 second will realize that Kerry will kill this nation. First we'll be in Iraq, then out, then back in, then were using missiles, then were deciding thats barbaric. My god. I know military personel who are scarred out of their minds with the thought of Kerry winning the election.

So there you have it. I tried my best to answer your questions.

1 That's changing the subject, but I'll bite anyway. Many, many people who first signed on to the Patriot Act have now had second thoughts about the wisdom of said legislation. Many, right after the most horrible terrorist attack on American soil, were moved to do things that, on later thought, they felt to be unwise.

2. fair enough

3. Then how come the Republicans who voted nay on the FIRST bill aren't accused of not supporting the troops? If the Republicans (the majority in congress, by the way) had voted for the first bill, we wouldn't be having this discussion now, would we? How come they're not irresponsible? Because they, like Kerry, knew another version of the bill was forthcoming.

4. All but one of the living men who actually served on Kerry's boat support him. Several thousand Vietnam Veterans, disillusioned and discouraged with the war, supported him when he testified before Congress.

Thanks for responding. Let's keep the channels open, cool?

NO. I know where President Bush stands on abortion, Gay marriage ,and the War in Iraq. I do not know the same about Kerry.


Becuase you choose not to listen.

Why is he?
well I can't answer that question because I never said he was.
He might be, he might not be, I really don't care since I despised him way before anyone said he was a flip-flopper.

My other reasons for hating Kerry my area was hit hardest by Hurricane Charley, President Bush came down here 3 times because it was his job. Kerry came down here 3 days after he said he was not going to come down here then quickly left because there were no cameras around to video him.
name how many other senators you saw down there, or even representatives

NO. I know where President Bush stands on abortion, Gay marriage ,and the War in Iraq. I do not know the same about Kerry.
How naive can you be? Bush would sacrifice his own mother to the god Zontar on national tv if it would get him elected again. Kerry would too. You have to be willing to do whatever is necessary in order to win a political office at that level. Man, if you honestly believe that a politician is honorable when it comes to getting elected, then you ought to be locked up in a padded room somewhere and kept away from sharp objects. You'll hurt yourself.

Oh and to Chess Squares: I always thought it was liberal democrats that avoided reason and logic, what with them not voting for Kerry, but Against Bush. Everyone who thinks about it for more than 2 second will realize that Kerry will kill this nation. First we'll be in Iraq, then out, then back in, then were using missiles, then were deciding thats barbaric. My god. I know military personel who are scarred out of their minds with the thought of Kerry winning the election.

So there you have it. I tried my best to answer your questions.
because you and your aquaintances are obviously simple lemmnigs who have bought into bush propaganda, i would appreciate you leaving me the hell alone until you learn some intelligent thing we can debate about

Ok your making this into something its not. It dosn't take someone with half a brain to figure out Kerry is a flip-flopper and Bush is as stubborn as a rock.

http://www.johnkerryflipflops.com/

There is a list of all the things hes flip flopped on.

Oh and can't forget:

"You can't talk bad about me, I'm a Vietnam Veteran!"
and then
"They have personally cut off heads, ears, raped..ect ect ect."

Wtf is that?

Lets see both Florida Senators and most if not all of the the Florida Reperesentatives in the House as well as a few state senators and represenatives.

You know, Bush has flip-flopped too..

Answers: He is a flip flopper because he voted against the final resolution which aided our tropps when he said he would. He is also a flip flopper on abortion, gay rights, and the Iraq war. Those other members who did the same thing are not trying to attain the office of commander in chief of the largest military on the face of the earth. Kerry is. He is guilty of neglecting the troops because he voted for the democrat version of the bill which failed and then against the Republican version ( the final version) which passed. I think that if the appropriation bill failed to pass the troops would have recieved $87 billion dollars ( !!!) less to work with to SAVE LIVES in Iraq. I am rational and I know that when it comes to funding our troops in combat you don't wait for a later bill. You help the soldiers out. I have directly answered the questions.

The only reason it was the final resolution was because it was the one that passed. If the first one, the one Kerry voted for had passed, that would have been the final resolution, correct? Unfortunately, the majority of Republicans voted against that bill (the irresponsible buggers, how DARE they vote agaisnt a bill supporting our troops?) which was why another was immediately crafted...just like another would have been crafted if the 2nd version had not passed. Next???

To put it more simply a.) Did the fact that the Republicans voted against the first draft cause our troops to lose $87 billion in funding? NO. b.) Did the bill that the Republicans pass, against Kerry's vote provide the troops with body armor? NO.

Where is my specific reasoning in my specific original questions off? What specifically, can you disagree with in this specific post?

Be specific, please. I want to know where my arguments are weak.

Ok your making this into something its not. It dosn't take someone with half a brain to figure out Kerry is a flip-flopper and Bush is as stubborn as a rock.

http://www.johnkerryflipflops.com/

There is a list of all the things hes flip flopped on.

Oh and can't forget:

"You can't talk bad about me, I'm a Vietnam Veteran!"
and then
"They have personally cut off heads, ears, raped..ect ect ect."

Wtf is that?

If you read John Kerry's actual testimony before Congress, you'll see that he was reporting on testimony given to him by 150 veterans who specifically stated that they themselves had seen and committed attrocities. Kerry was in no way saying ALL Vietnam veterans were war criminals, just like the criminal investigation on Kobe Bryant didn't mean all basketball players
are being accused of rape.

Bonus points to any conservtive who can quote Kerry's first paragraph in his testimony before Congress

This of course, it off topic. Please respond to my original questions directly.

because you and your aquaintances are obviously simple lemmnigs who have bought into bush propaganda, i would appreciate you leaving me the hell alone until you learn some intelligent thing we can debate about

No I beleive your the one who bought in the Kerry propaganda?

And I believe all you have been doing is slamming bush and republicans and conservatives. Do you actually have something or is your judgment of me as wrong as you are?

Besides I didn't buy into it, I watched how he preformed and liked what I saw. But hey nice attempt to not look stupid..too bad it failed.

Oh and on Bush sacrificing his mother, whats your issue? Are you so cynical to think that all politicans are evil? One, Kerry has lied about and ruined the honor and lives of veterans. He deserved none of his medals and there is proof behind this, but Bush had the honor to say that his military service was honorable and didn't think we should question it. Of course Kerry supporters are trying to make a deseprate bid to bring up Bushs military record. Something which is proving to be disastorous move on their part. So think before you type if you capable of that action.

If you read John Kerry's actual testimony before Congress, you'll see that he was reporting on testimony given to him by 150 veterans who specifically stated that they themselves had seen and committed attrocities. Kerry was in no way saying ALL Vietnam veterans were war criminals, just like the criminal investigation on Kobe Bryant didn't mean all basketball players
are being accused of rape.

Bonus points to any conservtive who can quote Kerry's first paragraph in his testimony before Congress

This of course, it off topic. Please respond to my original questions directly.

Ya I can't find that but I know this:

If you search around a little more you'll find that most of the people on his side at one point during his run for nominee said that he would make a horrible president and those that didn't have been proved as liars or people have greatly exagerated their stories. Kerry himself said he had witnessed warcrimes but hasn't been able to tell one! You wanna know why, because he dosnt' know!

Time to get off by order of mother...

No I beleive your the one who bought in the Kerry propaganda?

And I believe all you have been doing is slamming bush and republicans and conservatives. Do you actually have something or is your judgment of me as wrong as you are?

Besides I didn't buy into it, I watched how he preformed and liked what I saw. But hey nice attempt to not look stupid..too bad it failed.

Oh and on Bush sacrificing his mother, whats your issue? Are you so cynical to think that all politicans are evil? One, Kerry has lied about and ruined the honor and lives of veterans. He deserved none of his medals and there is proof behind this, but Bush had the honor to say that his military service was honorable and didn't think we should question it. Of course Kerry supporters are trying to make a deseprate bid to bring up Bushs military record. Something which is proving to be disastorous move on their part. So think before you type if you capable of that action.

Kerry did not lie to Congress. If Kerry had lied to Congress, he would have been put in jail. He was under oath, after all. The truth is that some American soldiers committed attrocities. Some Americans are white supremacists. Does that mean I am a white supremacist? No, nor does the fact that Americans have been accused of being white supremacists mean that I am being accused. I digress, the occurence of Vietnam attrocities is historical fact. 150 men told their story about it to Kerry, 1000's more supported him, and he passed the testimony along to Congress. How is that lying?

Name one piece of proof, not hearsay, that Kerry did not deserve the medals. Every bit of documented evidence supports Kerry. Since you believe no one on Kerry's boat supports him, I do not think you are an authority on this subject, since Kerry's crewmates are campaigning with him.

Ya I can't find that but I know this:

If you search around a little more you'll find that most of the people on his side at one point during his run for nominee said that he would make a horrible president and those that didn't have been proved as liars or people have greatly exagerated their stories. Kerry himself said he had witnessed warcrimes but hasn't been able to tell one! You wanna know why, because he dosnt' know!

Time to get off by order of mother...

Likewise, many of those that criticize him now were campaigning for him in 1996, and saying he was a great and heroic leader.

Whoever said that Kerry's own 6 man swift boat crew didn't support him is severely uninformed and obviously hasn't seen that crew actively campaigning for Kerry.

Someone also said that US military members are afraid of Kerry taking over. Don't ever speak for military members/veterans. We are a diverse group that should not be stereotyped. Kerry has served in active combat and taken shrapnel, something Bush avoided using family connections with then Texas Speaker of the House Barnes. MANY of us do not support Bush for:
1) botching the Iraq war (letting the Iraqi unemployment rate get so high that the only way most of them can survive is by resorting to crime while what should be their jobs are given to US contractors like Haliburton and Brown Root who then defrauded taxpayers),
2) underfunding/undermanning the fight to find binLaden in Afghanistan (remember him? or should we just wait for another attack?),
3) cutting 12 billion from Veterans benefits and health care during wartime,
4) incurring the largest deficit of any president ever (over 500 billion), while simultaneously overseeing the largest expansion of government ever,
5) raising medicare rates by the largest margin ever (17 percent!) for the elderly who sacrificed in World War II to save the world from facism and nazism.

So Kerry is a flip-flopper? Good. I would rather have a President who is able to analize past decisions and make the appropriate corrections when needed rather than someone like Bush who blindly sticks to one plan of action even when that plan is Wrong.

George W. Bush - W is for WRONG, wrong on war, wrong on terror, wrong on civil rights, wrong on the environment, wrong on international relations, wrong on the economy, wrong on workers rights, wrong on corporate scandal.....................wrong for the US and wrong for the world.

My other reasons for hating Kerry my area was hit hardest by Hurricane Charley, President Bush came down here 3 times because it was his job. Kerry came down here 3 days after he said he was not going to come down here then quickly left because there were no cameras around to video him.

First of all, the hurricanes were acts of nature and have nothing to do with the government. The government doesn't owe you anything for a hurricane coming through your part of the country.

Secondly, President Bush went to Florida because he is the President. Kerry is not President. I'll be willing to bet that the vast majority of Congress didn't even make an appearance in Florida, cameras or not.

So, don't worry about Kerry's brief appearance. I'd just assume he didn't show up at all. Florida is not his constituency.

No I beleive your the one who bought in the Kerry propaganda?

And I believe all you have been doing is slamming bush and republicans and conservatives. Do you actually have something or is your judgment of me as wrong as you are?

Besides I didn't buy into it, I watched how he preformed and liked what I saw. But hey nice attempt to not look stupid..too bad it failed.

Oh and on Bush sacrificing his mother, whats your issue? Are you so cynical to think that all politicans are evil? One, Kerry has lied about and ruined the honor and lives of veterans. He deserved none of his medals and there is proof behind this, but Bush had the honor to say that his military service was honorable and didn't think we should question it. Of course Kerry supporters are trying to make a deseprate bid to bring up Bushs military record. Something which is proving to be disastorous move on their part. So think before you type if you capable of that action.
congratulations!
you have now been ignored for being a COMPLETELY ignorant git

Another question:

Who would you rather have for president?

1. A man who stubbornly sticks to his decisions whether he's right or wrong.
2. A man who is capable of looking back at past experiences to evaluate and possibly change his orignial decision.

Oh and on Bush sacrificing his mother, whats your issue? Are you so cynical to think that all politicans are evil? One, Kerry has lied about and ruined the honor and lives of veterans. He deserved none of his medals and there is proof behind this, but Bush had the honor to say that his military service was honorable and didn't think we should question it. Of course Kerry supporters are trying to make a deseprate bid to bring up Bushs military record. Something which is proving to be disastorous move on their part. So think before you type if you capable of that action.
I'm cynical enough to know from experience that politicians are opportunistic bastards who will do whatever is necessary to get elected--otherwise they don't get elected. The sidelines of world politics are filled with honorable people who were willing to lose rather than descend into the gutters, and they lost. They're better people for it.

Secondly, Kerry didn't lie. I know you find it hard to believe that US soldiers committed the atrocities Kerry testified about, but some of them--and Kerry always limited his comments to a fraction of active servicepeople--did exactly what he described. It's been documented by more than one news organization, most recently by the Toledo Blade last year--they won a Pulitzer for their reporting.

Time to get off by order of mother...
That explains far more about you and your opinions than you will ever appreciate.

you jsut used facts, logic, reason, and common sense. conservatives will avoid this thread like it was infected with AIDS
*ahem*

Another question:

Who would you rather have for president?

1. A man who stubbornly sticks to his decisions whether he's right or wrong.
2. A man who is capable of looking back at past experiences to evaluate and possibly change his orignial decision.

HOOOORAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is logic! Right-wingers please pay attention and drop your jingoistic, fear-filled noise makers.........

*ahem*
American conservatives. Different countries have different definitions.

Our flashlight is your torch. Our elevator is your lift. Two countries seperated by a common language. Darnit, I digress again.

American Conservatives, answer my questions!

Alright, I'll take a stab at these:

Here they go:

Why is Kerry a flip-flopper for voting for, then against two differing versions of the $87 War appropriations bill, but the majority of Congress, who voted against, then for, those bills get a free pass?

Because the rest of the senate are not running for president. This whole flip flop issue isnt an attack on Kerry's character, it's an attack on his record as a public servant.

Why is it Kerry's fault that the troops didn't get their body armor, when it was the bill he voted against that PASSED that failed to get the men and women their armor.

It's not an issue of wheter or not the troops get their body armor. It's an issue that Kerry wasnt willing to fund body armor for troops.

Why do conservatives think that if the bill Kerry voted against failed to pass, then our troops wouldn't have gotten funding? Every rational person knows that another appropriations bill would have been put forth almost immediately.

It's not a matter of whether or not a bill succeeds or fails, it's a matter that Kerry voted against the funding.

Why won't anyone answer those points directly? The only responses I've ever get is: I don't listen to liberal propaganda. I didn't realize that how Congress functions is an act of liberal propaganda

Talking about Kerry "flipflopping" isnt an attack on his character. Never has been. It is an attack on his appearant willingness to take whatever side of an issue his audience happens to espouse at the moment.

Take the SUV issue. What is his stance on SUV's and the environment? So far, what he has said publicly is "I drive SUV's" (to detroit automakers) and "I wouldnt own an SUV" (to environmentalists).

Now watch this denial.

Denial of what, pray tell?

American conservatives. Different countries have different definitions.

Our flashlight is your torch. Our elevator is your lift. Two countries seperated by a common language. Darnit, I digress again.

American Conservatives, answer my questions!
Thank you, I dont mind being flamed for my own beliefs but I get a bit upset when Im flamed for someone elses;)

Peace

Here they go:

Why is Kerry a flip-flopper for voting for, then against two differing versions of the $87 War appropriations bill, but the majority of Congress, who voted against, then for, those bills get a free pass?

Why is it Kerry's fault that the troops didn't get their body armor, when it was the bill he voted against that PASSED that failed to get the men and women their armor.

Why do conservatives think that if the bill Kerry voted against failed to pass, then our troops wouldn't have gotten funding? Every rational person knows that another appropriations bill would have been put forth almost immediately.

Why won't anyone answer those points directly? The only responses I've ever get is: I don't listen to liberal propaganda. I didn't realize that how Congress functions is an act of liberal propaganda

Now watch this denial.

I can't answer it because I don't know what you're talking about :D

It's true, I don't listen to liberal propaganda, probably like how you wouldn't listen to concervative propaganda...
As to whether this stuff is true or not, i'd have to know what the story is, which i don't because, for the most part, I don't bother watching the news. Too boring for my tastes, even without all the political flaming going back and forth.

Alright, I'll take a stab at these:



Because the rest of the senate are not running for president. This whole flip flop issue isnt an attack on Kerry's character, it's an attack on his record as a public servant.

Then you could make the same case about Bush not supporting the first version of the bill, but supporting the second.



It's not an issue of wheter or not the troops get their body armor. It's an issue that Kerry wasnt willing to fund body armor for troops.

Where do you see where Kerry didn't support armor for the troops? By voting for the first version of the bill, Kerry showed he was interested in supporting the troops. By his 2nd vote, he showed that he was against that specific way of supporting the troops, a way that ended up not giving the troops body armor. If anyone could be accused of not wanting the troops to have armor, then you have to point the finger at those who drafted the bill, and those who carried it out.



It's not a matter of whether or not a bill succeeds or fails, it's a matter that Kerry voted against the funding.

But Congress voted against funding, then for it. The argument was never on whether the funding would be there or not, it was on the specifics of how the funding would be paid for, and what, specifically, the funding would pay for.



Talking about Kerry "flipflopping" isnt an attack on his character. Never has been. It is an attack on his appearant willingness to take whatever side of an issue his audience happens to espouse at the moment.

Sounds like an attack on his character to me. This is an issue of point of view, though. Since it doesn't involve facts, you and will always disagree as to whether such things are flip-flops, or an educated change of opinion over time.

Take the SUV issue. What is his stance on SUV's and the environment? So far, what he has said publicly is "I drive SUV's" (to detroit automakers) and "I wouldnt own an SUV" (to environmentalists).

Yeah, that was kinda douchebaggy, but the Prez has done things equally douche-like. Like the time he was unable to define sovereignty, or his being against, then for the 9/11 commission (wait, that one is important,) They're rather small issues, and are standard campaign stunts (like kissing babies...what normal person walks down the street, kissing babies?)


Denial of what, pray tell?

The apparent hypocrisy involved in the majority of the slams against Kerry.

Then you could make the same case about Bush not supporting the first version of the bill, but supporting the second.

That's fine then.. make that case. Im suprised that the Kerry staff didnt do that in the first place, rather than make Vietnam his whole pulic platform.

Where do you see where Kerry didn't support armor for the troops? By voting for the first version of the bill, Kerry showed he was interested in supporting the troops. By his 2nd vote, he showed that he was against that specific way of supporting the troops, a way that ended up not giving the troops body armor. If anyone could be accused of not wanting the troops to have armor, then you have to point the finger at those who drafted the bill, and those who carried it out.

I could be mistaken, I couldnt find the source I am remembering. What I remember is that Kerry voted for the bill when it included a rider that reversed the tax cuts, but voted against the bill that did nothing about the tax cuts. If that's the case, then it has the appearance of Kerry utilizing a politic issue (tax cuts) to grant or withhold vital funding.

But Congress voted against funding, then for it. The argument was never on whether the funding would be there or not, it was on the specifics of how the funding would be paid for, and what, specifically, the funding would pay for.

Right.. but your assertion in the first post I quoted was that since any "rational person" knew that another funding bill would be put up immediately, Kerry voting against it was immaterial. I see that as Kerry politicizing a vital issue. He was willing to vote against funding for purely political issues, not wheter the funding was necessary.

Sounds like an attack on his character to me. This is an issue of point of view, though. Since it doesn't involve facts, you and will always disagree as to whether such things are flip-flops, or an educated change of opinion over time.

Educated change of opinion over time... I like that. It very well could be an explaination for Kerry's "flip flops". Would be nice tho to hear his response to the charges. As in "I was for(or against) that issue for this reason. I was then against(or for) that issue for this reason." That would do a lot to quiet any nay sayers.

Yeah, that was kinda douchebaggy, but the Prez has done things equally douche-like. Like the time he was unable to define sovereignty, or his being against, then for the 9/11 commission (wait, that one is important,) They're rather small issues, and are standard campaign stunts (like kissing babies...what normal person walks down the street, kissing babies?)

But you see.. without any explaination of his "flip flops" these small issues add up to his appearance to be unwilling to have convictions about anything. I would really like to hear his explainations.

The apparent hypocrisy involved in the majority of the slams against Kerry.

I dont see any hypocricy involved with "slams" against Kerry.

Here they go:

Why is Kerry a flip-flopper for voting for, then against two differing versions of the $87 War appropriations bill, but the majority of Congress, who voted against, then for, those bills get a free pass?
There weren't two versions, just one. Kerry was just one of two senators to vote for the war, but against the appropriations bill.
Why is it Kerry's fault that the troops didn't get their body armor, when it was the bill he voted against that PASSED that failed to get the men and women their armor.
No one said it was Kerry's fault. Kerry just used it as part of his caampaign. At it is assumed by Congress, btw, that such basic needs as armor are to be funded.
Why do conservatives think that if the bill Kerry voted against failed to pass, then our troops wouldn't have gotten funding? Every rational person knows that another appropriations bill would have been put forth almost immediately.
But not soon enough. It would've taken far too much political wrangling, and the Pentagon and/or the troops in Iraq would need to cut corners. We tried that in Vietnam. It didn't work.
Why won't anyone answer those points directly? The only responses I've ever get is: I don't listen to liberal propaganda. I didn't realize that how Congress functions is an act of liberal propaganda

Now watch this denial.
Don't listen to liberal propaganda :).

That's fine then.. make that case. Im suprised that the Kerry staff didnt do that in the first place, rather than make Vietnam his whole pulic platform.

These Republican talking points have succeeded in distracting many people from the fact that Kerry is, in fact, running on issues aside from Vietnam, and he brings those issues up in every single speech.



I could be mistaken, I couldnt find the source I am remembering. What I remember is that Kerry voted for the bill when it included a rider that reversed the tax cuts, but voted against the bill that did nothing about the tax cuts. If that's the case, then it has the appearance of Kerry utilizing a politic issue (tax cuts) to grant or withhold vital funding.

Which is exactly what the Republicans did by voting against the funding in the first place. Kerry saw that it was his duty to make sure that the funding was responsibly paid for. The Republicans saw it as their duty to protect the tax cuts for the richest 2%. It's a case of both sides doing their job as they perceive it.



Right.. but your assertion in the first post I quoted was that since any "rational person" knew that another funding bill would be put up immediately, Kerry voting against it was immaterial. I see that as Kerry politicizing a vital issue. He was willing to vote against funding for purely political issues, not wheter the funding was necessary.

Again, by that reasoning, the Republicans, encouraged by Bush, were willing to vote against the first bill for purely political reasons. So, you're saying that if the Republicans politicize an issue, the Democrats should just lie down?



Educated change of opinion over time... I like that. It very well could be an explaination for Kerry's "flip flops". Would be nice tho to hear his response to the charges. As in "I was for(or against) that issue for this reason. I was then against(or for) that issue for this reason." That would do a lot to quiet any nay sayers.

He does respond, but his responses don't make for good "sound bite" fodder, so they are not introduced into the mainstream. He's realizing now that the only way to get the press to report on his speeches is to be more agressive in his criticism of Bush.


But you see.. without any explaination of his "flip flops" these small issues add up to his appearance to be unwilling to have convictions about anything. I would really like to hear his explainations.

He has explained them, which is why I have the information I do. Has bush ever explained why he was against the 9/11 commission, and then for them?



I dont see any hypocricy involved with "slams" against Kerry.

Hence why I started this thread.

There weren't two versions, just one. Kerry was just one of two senators to vote for the war, but against the appropriations bill.

What?!? That's a straight out lie! Even the Republicans agree there were two (or more) versions of the bill.


No one said it was Kerry's fault. Kerry just used it as part of his caampaign. At it is assumed by Congress, btw, that such basic needs as armor are to be funded.

Ummm...moving on.

But not soon enough. It would've taken far too much political wrangling, and the Pentagon and/or the troops in Iraq would need to cut corners. We tried that in Vietnam. It didn't work.

Then why vote against the first version?

Don't listen to liberal propaganda :).

Translation: If you can't argue against it logically, deny it.