NationStates Jolt Archive

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

Uh, don't you think you're painting with a broad brush here? Not all Muslims are terrorists. Just like not all white dudes blow up buildings in Oklahoma. Just like not all Irish people blow up the English and visa-versa.. not all terrorists are even Muslims. There are plenty of non-Muslims terrorists. They are just the ones being focused on right now.
I didn't say all muslims are terrorists. I know that. I'm saying that the ones who aren't terrorists make excuses when terrorism happens rather than accepting that something is terribly wrong in muslim societies around the world. Their borders are bloody for a reason.

Uh, don't you think you're painting with a broad brush here? Not all Muslims are terrorists. Just like not all white dudes blow up buildings in Oklahoma. Just like not all Irish people blow up the English and visa-versa.. not all terrorists are even Muslims. There are plenty of non-Muslims terrorists. They are just the ones being focused on right now.

I didn't say all muslims are terrorists. I know that. I'm saying that the ones who aren't terrorists make excuses when terrorism happens rather than accepting that something is terribly wrong in muslim societies around the world. Their borders are bloody for a reason.

You mean like how some Americans make excuses for their unjust war in Iraq? Ok, I get the point.

I promised I wouldn't argue or debate today in memory of 9/11 victims. I'm going to try to stick to it ..

americas handling iraq is not good and heavy handed but you can hardly compare to terrorist massacres

You mean like how some Americans make excuses for their unjust war in Iraq? Ok, I get the point.

I promised I wouldn't argue or debate today in memory of 9/11 victims. I'm going to try to stick to it ..
Some Americans do make excuses for Iraq. Many do not. I, among many other Americans, have been saying from the beginning that the Iraq war was a bad idea. Many Americans have been very vocal on that point. Very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake.

you can hardly compare to terrorist massacres

Yeah, exactly.. Those terrorist idiots who executed massacres like Sabra and Shatile must be brought to justice..

Oh wait.. I realize you're talking about Muslim terrorists.. Hmm.. Yeah.. Islam is bad.. kill them.. yeah..


I was recently visiting Mauthausen on my vacation in Austria (how ironic, eh?).. and at least one hundred people I was with started crying when they were dragged into the vile gassing chambers of Adolf Hitler.. For the next hour, everyone noted how "vile" Hitler was for massacring "poor Jews". Note that, according to the guide himself, Mauthausen was a labour camp, and the Jewish population at Mauthausen was minute compared to the Russian and Polish populations.

Then I brought up Sabra and Shatila.. And do you know how the Americans replied as soon as they heard "Israel" come out of my mouth? :

"But that was Israel.. A democracy.. they are fighting evil terrorists.. they are free to do whatever they want in their own land.. Surely you don't support Muslim terrorists.. Self-defense.. blah.. blah.. blah.."

And what about the Liberty?.. Isn't the attack on the USS Liberty just as vile as the one on the USS Cole?.. Does that not constitute terrorism because it was carried out by missiles and torpedoes, whereas throwing rocks is?

Hypocrites. Avoid double standards, you and Biff.. Your ignorance knows no bounds.

As for the issue of "waking up", believe me, we are more awake than most of you are.. It's just that we're powerless.. so what do we do to voice our concerns?.. You hold demonstrations, we shut up, except the serious ones among us.. they prefer to strap on a belt of home-made explosives and drive into American tanks...

Hey.. you asked for it.. You said "bring em on"... Hell, that's exactly what he's gonna do.. Don't like it.. tough.. get the hell out..

Some Americans do make excuses for Iraq. Many do not. I, among many other Americans, have been saying from the beginning that the Iraq war was a bad idea. Many Americans have been very vocal on that point. Very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake.

2 billion. But you'd know about the opinions of 2 billion people without asking them because you're a psychic.

When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason.

And that reason being, other than blanket ignorance and unfounded assumptions?

They can't get visas for a reason.

Remind me of the reason for this one as well, would you?

When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

They have no more responsibility to bring their coreligionists to justice than you or I do.

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?
this is the same thing as interviewing the biggest, dumbest redneck you can find after a natural disaster

Very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake.

See... ignorance.. utter ignorance..

Some Americans do make excuses for Iraq. Many do not. I, among many other Americans, have been saying from the beginning that the Iraq war was a bad idea. Many Americans have been very vocal on that point. Very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake.

There are a lot, lot more muslims than that. I think that most of them do think terrorism is wrong. The american media is a bit bigger in the world that most arabic media, its just that their voices don't get to be heard.

2 billion. But you'd know about the opinions of 2 billion people without asking them because you're a psychic.
Their opinions are made plain in polls and editorials in their media.

There are a lot, lot more muslims than that. I think that most of them do think terrorism is wrong.
Thinking something is wrong is different from speaking out against it, and turning the offenders in to the authorities.

Their opinions are made plain in polls and editorials in their media.

Educate me: show me a couple of links.

And that reason being, other than blanket ignorance and unfounded assumptions?



Remind me of the reason for this one as well, would you?



They have no more responsibility to bring their coreligionists to justice than you or I do.
The reason is that in every muslim society in the world members of other religions are subject to violence. Most of the big terrorist events that occur are caused by islamist groups. Let's face it, if violent crimes are routinely perpetrated by some members of a group of people it's reasonable to be suspicious of any member of that group that you meet. The average suicide bomber isn't American, European, Chinese, or South American. He's muslim, and probably arab or south asian.

And that reason being, other than blanket ignorance and unfounded assumptions?



Remind me of the reason for this one as well, would you?



They have no more responsibility to bring their coreligionists to justice than you or I do.
Of course they have a responsibility to bring their coreligionists to justice. If I had reason to beleive that a member of my family, or one of my neighbors was going to perpetrate a terrorist act that would kill civilians and I didn't report him to the authorities I would have blood on my hands.

So how are the billions of Muslims all over the world going to turn Osama Bin Laden over to the authorities? Using the same psychic powers that you are?

The reason is that in every muslim society in the world members of other religions are subject to violence.

In every predominantly Christian society (with the possible exception of the Vatican City or other micro-states) members of other religions are also subject to violence. Similarly Christians in said societies are also subject to violence. Your point being?

When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason.

Let's face it, if violent crimes are routinely perpetrated by some members of a group of people it's reasonable to be suspicious of any member of that group that you meet.


Notice how in your first statement the Muslims are viewed as terrorists, whereas in your second statement you give grounds for viewing them as potential terrorists, which are very different things. COming from Northern Ireland I have had direct experience of this kind of blurring of boundaries, and it ain't pleasent.


The average suicide bomber isn't American, European, Chinese, or South American. He's muslim, and probably arab or south asian.

That may be so, but still doesn't imply that the 'man in the street' in such a society as gives birth to suicide bombers has any greater or lesser responsibility to bring them to justice than you or I do.

americas handling iraq is not good and heavy handed but you can hardly compare to terrorist massacres

You can actually, america killed more than double the casualties of 9/11 they just did over a much longer a time. To make it seem more justified.

Of course they have a responsibility to bring their coreligionists to justice. If I had reason to beleive that a member of my family, or one of my neighbors was going to perpetrate a terrorist act that would kill civilians and I didn't report him to the authorities I would have blood on my hands.


Does the average man on the street that you mentioned in your first post have these links? I think not, therefore they have no greater responsibility than you or I do.

The responsibility to bring others to justice remains the same for all: if some have knowledge which could be used to bring people to justice, then their responsibility is not altered, instead their appropriate actions are changed. A muslim with knowledge of a bomber living on the floor above him has no more responsibility than you would have if the bomber lived on the floor above you.

Your response here indicates that you agree with me on this point.

I live in Jordan - a moderate Muslim society. The overwhelming majority of people in this country, Christians or Muslim, have never and would never support terrorism. Sweeping statements to the effect of 'Most Muslims support terrorism' or 'Most Muslims won't criticise terrorists' are plain wrong - they will and in many cases have. Muslim societies are complex and diverse - most generalisations about them simply can't be stretched very far. The opinion of ordinary people in these societies is rarely featured in the Western media (particularly in North America). People in the West should make a much greater effort to understand Middle Eastern values and culture, they would be surprised to find that their is a large swathe of Middle Eastern society that is moderate, mainstream, progressive, and generally pro-Western. Read the opinions on the internet in newspapers such as the Jordan Times. Only by people making the effort to understand more about each other will things ever change.

Educate me: show me a couple of links.
www.papillonsartpalace.com/prominen.htm
www.apfn.net/messageboard/9-05-03/discussion.cgi.31.html

Only by people making the effort to understand more about each other will things ever change.

Things will also change if people continue on their current courses of not seeking to understand. Not neccesarilly for the better, but they will change.

Anyway, if I may add something, terrorists do no commit attacks just for fun. Perhaps if I lived in a country where there is no hope and if anyway I knew there is nothing but shit to expect from the future, I would also do things that are utterly wrong because it might then appear to me as a kind of last resort. It would still be wrong but it is easy to condemn terrorism when you're not in such a situation. Chechnians consider themselves to be resisting against unjust oppression. They are weaker than Russia, so they cannot wage a conventional war. So in despair they resort to appalling methods. It's awful but they are not the only guilty persons in that situation.
If muslims were less generally oppressed in the world, there would be fewer muslim terrorists.

www.papillonsartpalace.com/prominen.htm
www.apfn.net/messageboard/9-05-03/discussion.cgi.31.html

Neither of those links have any information on what the Muslim populace thinks about 9/11.

www.papillonsartpalace.com/prominen.htm
www.apfn.net/messageboard/9-05-03/discussion.cgi.31.html

Yup, I was aware of those stories, but I was asking for links to the polls that you claimed earlier showed that "very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake", although this was not immediately obvious from my request.

So how are the billions of Muslims all over the world going to turn Osama Bin Laden over to the authorities? Using the same psychic powers that you are?
Someone is sheltering him. Someone is carrying the messages back and forth. Someone is providing him with supplies. These people have family, friends, and neighbors. They are responsible for turning the terrorists and supporters in.

Someone is sheltering him. Someone is carrying the messages back and forth. Someone is providing him with supplies. These people have family, friends, and neighbors. They are responsible for turning the terrorists and supporters in.

So how is the general Muslim population of the world, those who don't have links to terrorists (because those who do are obviously the minority), responsible for anything?

americas handling iraq is not good and heavy handed but you can hardly compare to terrorist massacres

Except not.

I was told in history a couple of days ago that for every American who died (reaching the number of 1,000), five Iraqis died. There's very little moral backing for killing/deaths, ever, not when innocent people paid their lives.

It's undeniable that it's a fantastic thing that Saddam is gone. But. 'Why did they have to bomb our markets?' To get him, we bombed Baghdad. Innocent people died. There isn't much room for justification or explanation when we had to kill innocent people for a "higher purpose."

I don't agree with the terrorists, but 5,000 people sure is a lot.

But I'm also not taking Russia into consideration, either.. *sigh* Everything's gotten so complicated.

Our way of life is at stake. We must fight for it. Support you government and military, especially when the bodies start coming home.
From Michael Spann, the first US death in the War against Terrorism after 9/11.

Some Americans do make excuses for Iraq. Many do not. I, among many other Americans, have been saying from the beginning that the Iraq war was a bad idea. Many Americans have been very vocal on that point. Very few of the billion or so muslims in the world admit that terrorism is a mistake.
if you think this, then you're obviously not listening.

FYI:: americans cant suspect that everyone from the middleeast is a terrorist and expect to be considered a nice country... please :rolleyes:

I was told in history a couple of days ago that for every American who died (reaching the number of 1,000), five Iraqis died.


www.Iraqbodycount.org currently puts the Iraqi civillian deaths caused by the recent military intervention there at between 11793 and 13802. This figure does not include members of the Iraqi armed forces.


I'll leave it to others to state what connection (if any) exists between Iraq and the attacks on the World Trade Centre...

Anyway, if I may add something, terrorists do no commit attacks just for fun. Perhaps if I lived in a country where there is no hope and if anyway I knew there is nothing but shit to expect from the future, I would also do things that are utterly wrong because it might then appear to me as a kind of last resort. It would still be wrong but it is easy to condemn terrorism when you're not in such a situation. Chechnians consider themselves to be resisting against unjust oppression. They are weaker than Russia, so they cannot wage a conventional war. So in despair they resort to appalling methods. It's awful but they are not the only guilty persons in that situation.
If muslims were less generally oppressed in the world, there would be fewer muslim terrorists.
Terrorist acts will not stop oppression. They will not bring prosperity. They will only bring more oppression and poverty. If muslims want peace they should integrate with the west instead of instigating violence.

Someone is sheltering him. Someone is carrying the messages back and forth. Someone is providing him with supplies. These people have family, friends, and neighbors. They are responsible for turning the terrorists and supporters in.

osama bin laden is supposedly in the mountains somewhere, not in houses. and at any rate, let's say there are 100 people in a remote village in afghanistan or pakistan responsable for aiding him. does that mean that every muslim is somehow responsable for that?

i mean, there are plenty of muslims at my school. are they aiding osama bin laden though they have never been to afghanistan or pakistan?

osama bin laden is supposedly in the mountains somewhere, not in houses. and at any rate, let's say there are 100 people in a remote village in afghanistan or pakistan responsable for aiding him. does that mean that every muslim is somehow responsable for that?

i mean, there are plenty of muslims at my school. are they aiding osama bin laden though they have never been to afghanistan or pakistan?
The ones with access to him and his support structures are responsible. Others must be vocal in criticizing him.

Anyway, if I may add something, terrorists do no commit attacks just for fun. Perhaps if I lived in a country where there is no hope and if anyway I knew there is nothing but shit to expect from the future, I would also do things that are utterly wrong because it might then appear to me as a kind of last resort. It would still be wrong but it is easy to condemn terrorism when you're not in such a situation. Chechnians consider themselves to be resisting against unjust oppression. They are weaker than Russia, so they cannot wage a conventional war. So in despair they resort to appalling methods. It's awful but they are not the only guilty persons in that situation.
If muslims were less generally oppressed in the world, there would be fewer muslim terrorists.
You can't justify the merciless slaughter of children. "Unconventional war" shouldn't include blowing up a school gymnasium and killing 200 kids and their parents. The Viet Cong waged an unconventional war against American forces, which usually did not involve killing primary school children (though they, too, were guilty of atrocities). The Afghans fought an unconventional war against the Soviets without the use of Boeing 757's.

Your justification of the Chechen rebels' actions has two major flaws; 1.) the majority of the Chechen people are content with Russian leadership. Most are intelligent enough to realize that Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union and isn't likely to exile all of them to Siberia (again) and 2.) those involved in the primary school massacre were Muslim extremists, and I'm willing to bet they don't represent even the majority of the Chechen seperationists.

Others must be vocal in criticizing him.

From whence comes this 'must'? 'Must' we be vocal in criticizing all that is unjust?

You can't justify the merciless slaughter of children. "Unconventional war" shouldn't include blowing up a school gymnasium and killing 200 kids and their parents. The Viet Cong waged an unconventional war against American forces, which usually did not involve killing primary school children (though they, too, were guilty of atrocities). The Afghans fought an unconventional war against the Soviets without the use of Boeing 757's.

Your justification of the Chechen rebels' actions has two major flaws; 1.) the majority of the Chechen people are content with Russian leadership. Most are intelligent enough to realize that Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union and isn't likely to exile all of them to Siberia (again) and 2.) those involved in the primary school massacre were Muslim extremists, and I'm willing to bet they don't represent even the majority of the Chechen seperationists.
Those brave chechen freedom fighters were passing the time during the standoff by raping teenage girls according to the survivor's accounts.

this whole thread is f-ing stupid, period.

you know what the equivolent of this is?

some one creating a topic where the relate the incident of the News interviewing the reddest redneck they can find after a natural disaster than chastising all rednecks for some stupid shit

From whence comes this 'must'? 'Must' we be vocal in criticizing all that is unjust?
Yes. I vaguely remember something about evil triumphing when good men do nothing.

Like America has the right to say we have a superior society and government. The land and resources it represents were stolen from the Native American tribes and molded into the "great" nation it is on the backs of slave labor. But, of course, they still managed to say in the Constitution that "all men[sic]are created equal".
Isn't the American government versatile?**satire mood off**
When thinking about getting into arguments like this its best to tell your self first off that "He who is without sin, cast the first stone". AND no...I am not religous; just Taoist. But its good objective advice anyways; especially where religion is concerned.
AND, IMHO, religion is probably the worst problem that human beings have ever had plague them. Can't people just be spiritual and not religous? Despite "popular" belief, there IS a difference.

www.Iraqbodycount.org currently puts the Iraqi civillian deaths caused by the recent military intervention there at between 11793 and 13802. This figure does not include members of the Iraqi armed forces.


I'll leave it to others to state what connection (if any) exists between Iraq and the attacks on the World Trade Centre...

FROM: DANIEL McKIVERGAN, Deputy Director


SUBJECT: 9-11 Commission Confirms Iraq-al Qaeda Ties


With the release of the September 11 Commission report, some media outlets may ignore or mischaracterize the fact that the report offers more confirmation of Iraq-al Qaeda ties. It is especially noteworthy, however, that the previous staff report’s finding of no “collaborative relationship” between Iraq and al Qaeda has been significantly modified. While the commission found no evidence of a “collaborative operational relationship” for “carrying out attacks against the United States,” they did find that the connection between Iraq and al Qaeda to be more extensive than many critics of the administration have been willing to admit. And, as the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center previously remarked: “any indication of a relationship between these two hostile elements could carry great dangers to the United States.”


According to the September 11 report:

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request ... [but] the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections. (p.61)

In March 1998, after Bin Ladin’s public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin’s Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. (p.66)

Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides’ hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States. (p.66)


In addition, two other recent accounts have shed more light on the Iraq-al Qaeda connection. A June 25, 2004 New York Times article, “Iraqis, Seeking Foes of Saudis, Contacted bin Laden, File Says,” reported on the contents of a mid-1990s Iraqi intelligence document believed to be authentic. According to the article,


bin Laden “had some reservations about being labeled an Iraqi operative.”
the Iraqi regime agreed to bin Laden’s request to rebroadcast anti-Saudi propaganda.
bin Laden “requested joint operations against foreign forces” in Saudi Arabia. The U.S. had a strong troop presence in Saudi Arabia at the time.
following bin Laden’s departure from Sudan, Iraq intelligence began “seeking other channels through which to handle the relationship.”
the Iraqi Intelligence service believed “cooperation between the two organizations should be allowed to develop freely through discussion and agreement.”
a Sudanese official in 1994 told Uday Hussein and the director of Iraqi Intelligence that bin Laden was willing to meet in Sudan.

And, on July 7, 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee reported:


That George Tenet provided the Senate Intelligence Committee this assessment in a closed session on September 17, 2002: “There is evidence that Iraq provided al Qaeda with various kinds of training--combat, bomb-making, [chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear] CBRN. Although Saddam did not endorse al Qaeda’s overall agenda and was suspicious of Islamist movements in general, he was apparently not averse, under certain circumstances, to enhancing bin Laden’s operational capabilities. As with much of the information on the overall relationship, details on training are [redacted] from sources of varying reliability.”
That according to a CIA report called Iraqi Support for Terrorism, “the general pattern that emerges is one of al Qaeda’s enduring interest in acquiring chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear (CBRN) expertise from Iraq.”
That the Iraqi regime ‘certainly’ had knowledge that Abu Musab al Zarqawi – described in Iraqi Support for Terrorism as “a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner” – was operating in Baghdad and northern Iraq.

Yes. I vaguely remember something about evil triumphing when good men do nothing.

Not vocally criticizing != doing nothing.

The ones with access to him and his support structures are responsible. Others must be vocal in criticizing him.

i see, so i'm white, does that mean i must speak out against all the crimes perpetrated by white people? and be sure to be vocal about it?

no, i don't.

if people stopped grouping other people by race or religion, the world would be a better place.

FYI:: americans cant suspect that everyone from the middleeast is a terrorist and expect to be considered a nice country... please :rolleyes:
Um.... everyone who attacked us on 9/11 WERE from the middle east! After what they did, the LAST THING I want to be considered is a nice country!

But I can be warm and fuzzy ;) :fluffle:

You can't justify the merciless slaughter of children. "Unconventional war" shouldn't include blowing up a school gymnasium and killing 200 kids and their parents. The Viet Cong waged an unconventional war against American forces, which usually did not involve killing primary school children (though they, too, were guilty of atrocities). The Afghans fought an unconventional war against the Soviets without the use of Boeing 757's.

Your justification of the Chechen rebels' actions has two major flaws; 1.) the majority of the Chechen people are content with Russian leadership. Most are intelligent enough to realize that Putin's Russia is not the Soviet Union and isn't likely to exile all of them to Siberia (again) and 2.) those involved in the primary school massacre were Muslim extremists, and I'm willing to bet they don't represent even the majority of the Chechen seperationists.

I'm not justifying it, I said it was bad and I think it is bad.
All I'm saying is that when you live in an awful context you might be drawn to do thing you would not do in another context.
That it is easy to judge when one has not be put to test.
Are we all spotless?
Would we all act well if we lived in difficult conditions?
I hope we would, but perhaps despair can make normal people do awful things.

Islam is a way of controling the people, they dont have freedom of choice, they dont learn about other religions they are forced what to believe,like most religions, only Islam is hundreds of years behind the others. There will never be peace while'st there is Islam how can you reason with people that believe there will be virgins waiting for them in heaven when they have just flown a plane load of innocent people to their death's or blown up a bus or killed a school load of children, or circumised their daughters, or killed their daughters for not wanting to marry who they choose in so called honour, it is a backward violent oppressive religion no matter what the Koran says, how many actually follow it?
Muslims only view terrorism as an act of evil when it's commited against them or when someone retaliates to their mass murders of innocents around the world

I'm not justifying it, I said it was bad and I think it is bad.
All I'm saying is that when you live in an awful context you might be drawn to do thing you would not do in another context.
That it is easy to judge when one has not be put to test.
Are we all spotless?
Would we all act well if we lived in difficult conditions?
I hope we would, but perhaps despair can make normal people do awful things.
You're very right, of course. The Chechens have been the pawns and scapegoats of the Russian people for hundreds of years now. However, I think the terrorists are led to do what they do because of lack of education (and their subsequent brainwashing by their political/religious leaders), not simply oppression. Look at pre-war Iraq; oppression like no other, but not a huge terrorist recruitment center. This is mainly because Iraq was a secular state with a comparatively incredible education system.

The above is not to be used as ammunition in some pointless debate about the war in Iraq; save it or another thread.

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews.

It could have very well been.

Russia says Chechen warlord directed attack (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1094814066625&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724)

"The information that there were Arabs has been confirmed, as has been information that there were representatives of other nationalities, among them, as I understand, Russians, a Ukrainian, Chechens, Ingush," [Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov] said.

They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well.

If I recall, many Muslims were outraged and disgusted by this.

When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason.

Even if you say you aren't calling all Muslims terrorists, it is VERY obvious from this that you are.

And, I for one think you are a little ignorant prick. Maybe if you befriended a Muslim or two, you'd come to wonder, why the hell are these people considered terrorists? Some of the nicest people I know are Muslim, my best friend is a good example.

They can't get visas for a reason.

Because the American government decided that since being racists against blacks was so last century...

They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason.

Yeah, customs guys are horny! :D

When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

So, you're going to take responsibility for what your fellow whiteman has done?

Islam is a way of controling the people, they dont have freedom of choice, they dont learn about other religions they are forced what to believe,like most religions, only Islam is hundreds of years behind the others. There will never be peace while'st there is Islam how can you reason with people that believe there will be virgins waiting for them in heaven when they have just flown a plane load of innocent people to their death's or blown up a bus or killed a school load of children, or circumised their daughters, or killed their daughters for not wanting to marry who they choose in so called honour, it is a backward violent oppressive religion no matter what the Koran says, how many actually follow it?
Muslims only view terrorism as an act of evil when it's commited against them or when someone retaliates to their mass murders of innocents around the world
Idiocy at its finest...

Clearly, my friend Sami (who, BTW, is a Muslim of Arabic descent), is an evil terrorist that can't be reasoned with.

The Bible has just as many problems as the Koran. Judiasm's teachings are vioent, its followers generally are not. Christianity has a history of violence, and a rather appallig one, at that. Even athiesm has been used as a justification for slaughtering thousands.

In other words...

Pot. Kettle. Black.

You're very right, of course. The Chechens have been the pawns and scapegoats of the Russian people for hundreds of years now. However, I think the terrorists are led to do what they do because of lack of education (and their subsequent brainwashing by their political/religious leaders), not simply oppression. Look at pre-war Iraq; oppression like no other, but not a huge terrorist recruitment center. This is mainly because Iraq was a secular state with a comparatively incredible education system.

The above is not to be used as ammunition in some pointless debate about the war in Iraq; save it or another thread.

Yes education is obviously a very important factor, but perhaps even educated persons might sometimes make the mistake to become a terrorist.

Yes education is obviously a very important factor, but perhaps even educated persons might sometimes make the mistake to become a terrorist.
Yes and no. The educated extremists (ala bin Laden) tend to be the leaders, the ones screaming "blow yourself up for the glory of God!" whilst hiding in a cave. The undeducated are their lackeys and pawns, because their minds were succeptable to the brainwashing anti-Western propaganda.

The Chechen rebels, the 9-11 hijackers, even the Iraqi insurgency (most of whom I wouldn't consider terrorists or even bad people, despite being the enemy); their ranks are filled with those that are uneducated, with the educated zealots at the top, directing their every move.

I don't have any time for the bible either, and I also had Muslim friends who after years of trying to see their point of view and buying a copy of the Koran and putting my change from the shopkeeper in their collection tin for their mosque renovations, I had to admit we were worlds apart, they never accepted or even acknowledged the possibility that other religions may have some rights in the world, in the course of two years I heard them condemn the western world for it's corrupt behaviour, capitalism,moral standards, lack of values although they were happy to sleep with prostitutes, take drugs, drink alcohol,claim benefits they were'nt entitle to and still attend the mosque on Friday.
And when I was working with Bosnian Muslim refugees they even told me they were'nt proper Muslims as they were'nt Arabic or Pakistani!
And this was'nt just the people I was friends with I was living in a predominent Asian area and everyone I ever spoke to had the same views, well at least the ones who thought a white girl was worth talking to.
Racism can be directed towards us as well,at the council I work for there is a black workers news letter! Bet we could'nt have a white workers letter (not that I'd want one)
Have'nt muslims fought with hindu's and jews and each other and the west!

americas handling iraq is not good and heavy handed but you can hardly compare to terrorist massacres


well...
9/11/01: 3000 civillians dead (approx)

Iraq war: 9000 civilians dead (approx)


makes you wonder...

i see, so i'm white, does that mean i must speak out against all the crimes perpetrated by white people? and be sure to be vocal about it?

no, i don't.

if people stopped grouping other people by race or religion, the world would be a better place.
I criticize the president of the USA. I do so because his foreign policy is counterproductive, and is needlessly killing Iraqi civilians and American troops. I will help vote him out in November. Obeying my conscience is my duty.

well...
9/11/01: 3000 civillians dead (approx)

Iraq war: 9000 civilians dead (approx)


makes you wonder...

What does it make you wonder?

There will never be peace while'st there is Islam...

Now there is a dangerous statement.

By the way, was that a prediction... or a threat?

What does it make you wonder?


nothing, nothing, I dont want to sound like a conspiracy theorist.

It could have very well been.

Russia says Chechen warlord directed attack (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1094814066625&call_pageid=968332188854&col=968350060724)





If I recall, many Muslims were outraged and disgusted by this.



Even if you say you aren't calling all Muslims terrorists, it is VERY obvious from this that you are.

And, I for one think you are a little ignorant prick. Maybe if you befriended a Muslim or two, you'd come to wonder, why the hell are these people considered terrorists? Some of the nicest people I know are Muslim, my best friend is a good example.



Because the American government decided that since being racists against blacks was so last century...



Yeah, customs guys are horny! :D



So, you're going to take responsibility for what your fellow whiteman has done?
You say that I think all muslims are terrorist. I never said that, and you are putting words in my mouth. You will never get to the truth if you use straw-man tactics. What I do beleive is that many people are convinced that muslim=terrorist due to the lack of criticism for extremists from the muslim moderates. I also beleive that profiling muslims is a reasonable security policy. After all, islamists are responsible for most large terrorist incidents. As for taking responsibility for crimes perpetrated by whites, yes, I do beleive that I have a responsibility to denounce them. I accept that when meeting a black person for the first time he will likely view me as a possible racist. I don't blame him for that. I just try to be myself and show him that I'm one of the good ones.

No, black people aren't all as paranoid as you.

I don't have any time for the bible either, and I also had Muslim friends who after years of trying to see their point of view and buying a copy of the Koran and putting my change from the shopkeeper in their collection tin for their mosque renovations, I had to admit we were worlds apart, they never accepted or even acknowledged the possibility that other religions may have some rights in the world, in the course of two years I heard them condemn the western world for it's corrupt behaviour, capitalism,moral standards, lack of values although they were happy to sleep with prostitutes, take drugs, drink alcohol,claim benefits they were'nt entitle to and still attend the mosque on Friday.
And when I was working with Bosnian Muslim refugees they even told me they were'nt proper Muslims as they were'nt Arabic or Pakistani!
And this was'nt just the people I was friends with I was living in a predominent Asian area and everyone I ever spoke to had the same views, well at least the ones who thought a white girl was worth talking to.
Racism can be directed towards us as well,at the council I work for there is a black workers news letter! Bet we could'nt have a white workers letter (not that I'd want one)
Have'nt muslims fought with hindu's and jews and each other and the west!
The Koran has many suras that urge followers to kill or enslave non-beleivers. It allows slavery, and encourages men to take women and children from the "enemy" as sex slaves. Most muslims find such behavior disgracefull, but a large number agree with it. Look at how coptic christians are treated in Egypt, how christians in Pakistan are abused, how islamists call for war, death and slavery for all infidels. Christians, Jews and Atheists have worked this out of their religions. Muslims are still struggling with these violent teachings.

It was neither a threat nor a prediction but while religion has a ruling on the way countries are run there will never be peace, vastly different beliefs will never agree, I was brought up in a very strict religion or cult as some people like to call it, and although I don't want any part of it now at least you don't have groups of extreme fanatical Jehovahs witnesses blowing themselves up on your doorstep! And as my mother is still a believer I can honestley say that when someone has that strong a belief there is no reasoning with them.

Where is your proof of this? Give us some quotes from the Quran (Joey P).

You say that I think all muslims are terrorist. I never said that, and you are putting words in my mouth. You will never get to the truth if you use straw-man tactics. What I do beleive is that many people are convinced that muslim=terrorist due to the lack of criticism for extremists from the muslim moderates. I also beleive that profiling muslims is a reasonable security policy. After all, islamists are responsible for most large terrorist incidents. As for taking responsibility for crimes perpetrated by whites, yes, I do beleive that I have a responsibility to denounce them. I accept that when meeting a black person for the first time he will likely view me as a possible racist. I don't blame him for that. I just try to be myself and show him that I'm one of the good ones.



wow... someone who beleives that profiling in right, yet can make his pint without screaming 'Hot Shower". You belong to a diying(sp) species, my friend.

The Koran has many suras that urge followers to kill or enslave non-beleivers. It allows slavery, and encourages men to take women and children from the "enemy" as sex slaves. Most muslims find such behavior disgracefull, but a large number agree with it. Look at how coptic christians are treated in Egypt, how christians in Pakistan are abused, how islamists call for war, death and slavery for all infidels. Christians, Jews and Atheists have worked this out of their religions. Muslims are still struggling with these violent teachings.
True enough. Please remember, though, that the Bible encourages many of the same things. Also remember that most of these teachings were shunned by Judeo-Christian religions at about the same time as democracy was intoduced and education started flourishing. That's why we have to democratize the Middle East.

Poodog: You realize most Muslims aren't Arabs, right?

The "wake-up" begins? Read this thread I posted.

http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=356465

Where is your proof of this? Give us some quotes from the Quran (Joey P).
I can supply you with plenty of quotes from the Koran about these issues. I've seen them. They don't make the religion of Islam inherantly evil, though; progressive Islam denounces these teachings.

I can supply you with plenty of quotes from the Koran about these issues. I've seen them. They don't make the religion of Islam inherantly evil, though; progressive Islam denounces these teachings.


while "progressive" christianism still refuses to denounce the creepier parts of the bible. Makes you think...

Show some quotes and their full context. People are fond of taking quotes out of context from the Quran. For example, "Kill them (non-believers) where you find them..." is oft quoted by critics of Islam but they don't mention that this art was in reference to a time when a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non-believers was broken (by the non-believers) and war was declared. It's not uncommon for people to kill wach other during a war.

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?


Just out of curiosity, where d'ye get the "reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well"? I'm interested since I'm an NS player currently living in Cairo, Egypt. Let me just clear something up for those of you who might not have the best idea of what things are like over here: Quite a fair amount of Egyptians love Americans. They've embraced our culture: Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Lipton, McDonald's, and every brand of jeans imaginable practically OWN the country! I wouldn't say a majority of people, since I don't know that for a fact. But quite a bit more do than one who's never visited Egypt do. I don't deny your sources and what they had to say; Most of the Arab World is not very fond of Israel. As for the whole ignorance deal, I'm not positive, but I would say this: Many Egyptians are completely innocent, struggling to support themselves and their families in the face of imperfect wealth distribution and a government that largely refuses to act to clear up anything. Therefore, one could speculate that they might not realize that they, just people trying to make their living, are viewed as potential terrorists.

But hey, that's just somebody who lives in Egypt's idea. Not true to the word; just an educated guess.

True enough. Please remember, though, that the Bible encourages many of the same things. Also remember that most of these teachings were shunned by Judeo-Christian religions at about the same time as democracy was intoduced and education started flourishing. That's why we have to democratize the Middle East.

Poodog: You realize most Muslims aren't Arabs, right?

Yes I realise that, the muslims I used to know obviously don't, I'm from the educated world where we are taught on all religions not just brainwashed by one.

while "progressive" christianism still refuses to denounce the creepier parts of the bible. Makes you think...
Jerry Falwell is not progressive Christianism.

Anyway watch Monty Pythons Life of Brian, then you'll see how all religion came about, makes as much sense as anything!

Their opinions are made plain in polls and editorials in their media.

You dingbat, you think your sooooo smart. Tell me, who exactly are the biggest extremists in muslim society ? The rich muslims, those who can acctually FUND terrorism. WHO OWNS THE MUSLIM MEDIA ?! The rich muslims, all of your freakin' arguments can easily be rebutled by anyone with a brain larger then a chipmunks and capable of abstract thought rather then just gobbling up everything you see on your pretty magic picture box in your living room. Everything they show on TV is made to entertain, so of course they arent going to pick the moderate muslims because they dont represent something people will care about. If you tape an islamist Yelling "ALLAH AKBAR! ALLAH AKBAR! DOWN WITH THE GREAT SATAN! *burns american flags*" It wont exactly have the same effect as a moderate muslim calmly explaining his views and the climate in his country/region.

You say that I think all muslims are terrorist. I never said that, and you are putting words in my mouth. You will never get to the truth if you use straw-man tactics.

...You said yourself that profilling all muslims and suspicion of all muslims was justified, you are nothing but a bigot and your opinions reflect that.

True enough. Please remember, though, that the Bible encourages many of the same things. Also remember that most of these teachings were shunned by Judeo-Christian religions at about the same time as democracy was intoduced and education started flourishing. That's why we have to democratize the Middle East.

Poodog: You realize most Muslims aren't Arabs, right?
Yep, but most arabs are muslims. The christian and jewish ones are rare now. Mostly thanks to the laws regarding dhimmis.

Where is your proof of this? Give us some quotes from the Quran (Joey P).
One of the suras urges muslims to cut the heads off of unbeleivers. The life of muhammad is full of instances where he and his followers slaughtered the men of a village and enslaved the women. The hadith details the treatment of captured women and children (they were kept as concubines). Do you really think women who just watched their husbands fathers brothers and sons slaughtered offered themselves up willingly to their conquerers? There are plenty of sites on the internet that show the brutatlity inherent in the koran and hadith. Do some work for yourself and look it up.

This is true. I agree that profiling Arabs isn't necessarily racist, as long as the fine line between "being extra careful" and "invading one's privacy" isn't crossed. It's highly unlikely that any Scottish people would hijack a jet liner (Allah's Kilt Brigade?).

Still, my point was, Arabs only constitute the plurality of Muslims, not the majority. They're contending with the Persians, black Africans of far too many ethnicities to name, and a great deal of other ethnic groups in the Middle East.

I can supply you with plenty of quotes from the Koran about these issues. I've seen them. They don't make the religion of Islam inherantly evil, though; progressive Islam denounces these teachings.
Correct. What the progressives in islam need to do is to shout out their message to the masses. Where's the muslim martin luther to nail his thesis on the mosque door?

One of the suras urges muslims to cut the heads off of unbeleivers. The life of muhammad is full of instances where he and his followers slaughtered the men of a village and enslaved the women. The hadith details the treatment of captured women and children (they were kept as concubines). Do you really think women who just watched their husbands fathers brothers and sons slaughtered offered themselves up willingly to their conquerers? There are plenty of sites on the internet that show the brutatlity inherent in the koran and hadith. Do some work for yourself and look it up.


It's your argment, you must provide the evidence. So far you haven't.

Show some quotes and their full context. People are fond of taking quotes out of context from the Quran. For example, "Kill them (non-believers) where you find them..." is oft quoted by critics of Islam but they don't mention that this art was in reference to a time when a peace treaty between the Muslims and the non-believers was broken (by the non-believers) and war was declared. It's not uncommon for people to kill wach other during a war.
Islam didn't spread like wildfire through the middle east because of willing conversions. Read your history. Muhammad was a warlord who fought, raped and pillaged accross the area. He converted people through the threat of violence.

Yes I realise that, the muslims I used to know obviously don't, I'm from the educated world where we are taught on all religions not just brainwashed by one.

Aha... you're from the educated world, whereas all Muslims are illiterate and completely worthless piles of dump?..

Muslims aren't brainwashed by Islam.. And if a Muslim does agree with that statement, he needs to be shot, because he obviously has no idea what his own religion is about..

Like all religions, it shows you the "right" path.. and the "wrong" path.. It's up to each individual how to interpret Islam.. It's not spoon-fed to its followers like Al-Quaeda wishes to have you believe..

You obviously know nothing of Islam.. nothing of the Muslim world.. Go back to your little corner and continue your worthless rants..

Correct. What the progressives in islam need to do is to shout out their message to the masses. Where's the muslim martin luther to nail his thesis on the mosque door?

Why did'nt progresive Islam have demonstrations worldwide after 9/11 like the demos we all saw worldwide when Iraq was invaded?

When the Muslim army beseiged a city in the time of Mohammed, they gave the leaders the option of converting to Islam or paying a tax.

It's your argment, you must provide the evidence. So far you haven't.
here's one of many lists
nowscape.com/islam/koran_sura.htm

Muslims are more likely to be a potential terrorst then any other person.. bcz the islam is very hatefull against ppl from with believes..

Ofc civilised muslims wouldn't do such a thing but I doubt the childish yelling crowds when an american dies and burn flags for no reason are very civilised.. when adults act like european 15 year olds with guns.. those childish ppl have seen to much anti western country propeganda in there lives...

Arabian countrys have very a very different culture from ours.. and u can't deny that they dont have the moral standards like us and are not civilised by our standards.. You can see that in there behaviour and laws etc..

Islam didn't spread like wildfire through the middle east because of willing conversions. Read your history. Muhammad was a warlord who fought, raped and pillaged accross the area. He converted people through the threat of violence.

Aha.. and you're a professor of early Islamic history??.. Or did you hear that from your fundamentalist masters and decided to spoil this read by mentioning the utterly worthless??..

Muhammad was not a warlord.. He did not rape and pillage. Give me one instance where a town was burned down by Muslim armies in the time of Muhammad, other than the battle of Khaybar, the city in which the Jews hid after collaborating with non-Muslims to destroy (rape, pillage) Medina? And even then, only the massive fortresses around the city were destroyed, and the Jews were asked to leave Muslim lands..

They took their stuff and simply migrated north.

Aha... you're from the educated world, whereas all Muslims are illiterate and completely worthless piles of dump?..

Muslims aren't brainwashed by Islam.. And if a Muslim does agree with that statement, he needs to be shot, because he obviously has no idea what his own religion is about..

Like all religions, it shows you the "right" path.. and the "wrong" path.. It's up to each individual how to interpret Islam.. It's not spoon-fed to its followers like Al-Quaeda wishes to have you believe..

You obviously know nothing of Islam.. nothing of the Muslim world.. Go back to your little corner and continue your worthless rants..
It's funny how so many muslims have never read the koran. They beleive what they beleive because it's what they were taught in their madrassa or mosque. More and more of those teach the saudi wahabi version of islam that hates all infidels. That's a form of brainwashing in my opinion.

Islam didn't spread like wildfire through the middle east because of willing conversions. Read your history. Muhammad was a warlord who fought, raped and pillaged accross the area. He converted people through the threat of violence.

Islam didn't spread like wildfire through the middle east because of willing conversions. Read your history. Muhammad was a warlord who fought, raped and pillaged accross the area. He converted people through the threat of violence.

Aha.. and you're a professor of early Islamic history??.. Or did you hear that from your fundamentalist masters and decided to spoil this read by mentioning the utterly worthless??..

Muhammad was not a warlord.. He did not rape and pillage. Give me one instance where a town was burned down by Muslim armies in the time of Muhammad, other than the battle of Khaybar, the city in which the Jews hid after collaborating with non-Muslims to destroy (rape, pillage) Medina? And even then, only the massive fortresses around the city were destroyed, and the Jews were asked to leave Muslim lands..

They took their stuff and simply migrated north.

Do you know the history of tribal conversions to Islam, and the events that triggered it??...

here's one of many lists
nowscape.com/islam/koran_sura.htm

Most of those quotes fall into one of three categories:

1)Talking about torment as in Hell, which is hardly unacceptable.
2)Taken completely out of context, such as the quote I've already mentioned.
3)Confusion from translation.

When the Muslim army beseiged a city in the time of Mohammed, they gave the leaders the option of converting to Islam or paying a tax.
If they paid the tax they lived under sharia law as dhimmis. They could never build new houses of worship. Their homes had to be lower than muslim homes. They could never hold government or private authority over a muslim. They couldn't testify in a court of law against a muslim. They couldn't own weapons. If a muslim accused them of blaspheming the prophet the unbeleiver would be put to death unless he could find a muslim male witness who would back him up. If the unbeleiver's daughter was raped, or son was murdered by a muslim he had no legal recourse. Yeah, that's living.

*cough* mohammed had a 13 year old wife while he was an adult
and was an alcoholic.. not a warlord or something like that.. he hated christians and jews bcz they hated him.. but all that is quite irrelevant.. so.. even if he was a warlord that wouldn't add jack to this discussion

Aha... you're from the educated world, whereas all Muslims are illiterate and completely worthless piles of dump?..

Muslims aren't brainwashed by Islam.. And if a Muslim does agree with that statement, he needs to be shot, because he obviously has no idea what his own religion is about..

Like all religions, it shows you the "right" path.. and the "wrong" path.. It's up to each individual how to interpret Islam.. It's not spoon-fed to its followers like Al-Quaeda wishes to have you believe..

You obviously know nothing of Islam.. nothing of the Muslim world.. Go back to your little corner and continue your worthless rants..

Yes as usual a non muslim knows nothing of religion because we are all immoral infidels! I visited Bahrain earlier this year and I'm sorry to say felt quite intimidated, justified or not that is the way Islamic extremists have made us western travellers feel and as I have a great interest in travel and religion would love to visit many religous historical sites unfortunately it does'nt feel safe for us; Luxor, New York,Bali, Istanbul to mention a few tourist bombings and massacres. So my little corner as you so arrogantly put it is just as well travelled, educated as you seem to think youare!

It's funny how so many muslims have never read the koran. They beleive what they beleive because it's what they were taught in their madrassa or mosque. More and more of those teach the saudi wahabi version of islam that hates all infidels. That's a form of brainwashing in my opinion.

Wahabism is denounced by Islam.. The Wahabis teach their "Muslim" followers to walk on the right side of a road, while other non-believers have to kneel down and walk on the left-side..

You think a religion would accept that form of degradation?.. Hell.. do you think its followers will accept that form of degradation?

No.. Wahabism is a sect, and by far the most loathed.. It just happens to be the sect followed by your friends, the Saudi Royal Family.. and anyone who disagrees is sent "behind the sun" as the Arabic expression goes..

And Muslims do read the Quran.. the fact that the Quran needs to be recited in the five daily prayers means that all Muslims are required to utter its words of wisdom, at least five times a day..

And you take all "slaying the idolaters" verses as just that.. It appears you were never taught how to read "in context" and how to consider the events and the environment surrounding the time those verses were received by the Prophet..

Funny how this "uneducated idiotic Muslim" knows more about the basics of literary analysis and the methods of propaganda than you do.

Most of those quotes fall into one of three categories:

1)Talking about torment as in Hell, which is hardly unacceptable.
2)Taken completely out of context, such as the quote I've already mentioned.
3)Confusion from translation.
The islamist terrorists use these verses to incite violence against non-muslims. Unless you can prove that the context of the quotes makes them acceptable, or that the translation is wrong, I think you are full of it. You seem to be trying to make excuses for terrorists who use the koran and hadith as recruiting tools. From your posts, recent and early, I think you hate America, and would support any of our enemies, no matter how barbaric.

guys, your all americans right?... well let me tell you something,
I come from The netherlands, because of its excellent social rights and a secured minimum cash check every dutch citizen gets we have allot of imigrants, mostly our fault, we brought them here in the 50's when we needed workers. Most of these people are muslim. We now have a problem because a part of the younger muslims aren't intergrated that well. That particular group has been known to steal, lie, and having no job. Because the effect of these people on society are very extreme mostly because just like in america the press likes point at them giving them the fault of allot of things, "their immigrants, lazy stuppid farmers that our former corrupt government took here..". thats called ignorance, black people are now a big problem in america just because for so long they where pionted at by media and people who were invluenced by the media, they start to make trouble they dont want to be the weaklings the so called thiefs they there for become because the others their getting sick of being blamed for everything.. Stop pointing at people racial and because of their religion just because a smaller group stands out.. (only because they werent good edjucated, they were never intergrated.. because they arent given the oppertunity to.) You create your own problems.. Terrorists dont attack because they have no reason.. last thing you got to do then is attack a country those terrorists just happend to came from. You should solve problem to make sure the terrorists dont want to attack you.. solve them on a peacefull way because once more agression has shown that te knife has two sides where it can kill you with.. Promblems are allways created by yourself almost never because of the opposit side.. thank you for the time


Cya Niels

*cough* mohammed had a 13 year old wife while he was an adult
and was an alcoholic.. not a warlord or something like that.. he hated christians and jews bcz they hated him.. but all that is quite irrelevant.. so.. even if he was a warlord that wouldn't add jack to this discussion
Aisha was 6 when he married her, 9 when he fucked her.

*cough* mohammed had a 13 year old wife while he was an adult
and was an alcoholic.. not a warlord or something like that.. he hated christians and jews bcz they hated him.. but all that is quite irrelevant.. so.. even if he was a warlord that wouldn't add jack to this discussion

An alcoholic??.. An alcoholic?.. Proof?..

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well.

Meh ... the "common man on the street" is what should let you know. Just because a person isn't American, doesn't mean he/she isn't dumb as a rock. ;)

"We the people" are often sheep to our government's propoganda ... no matter what nation you live in, ya know?

When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

I'm going to assume you're white and probably Christian. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry because I know we've spoken before and I can't remember.

Now, being a white Christian, would you appreciate being put through special screening, singled out for searches, and generally harassed because of the actions of Tim McVeigh?

[QUOTE]I have lived in Saudi Arabia and Qatar
for ten years and I am disgusted with your point of view.
not all Muslims are bad. HAVE YOU LIVED WITH THEM? have you even spent more than five minutes sitting next to one? YOU HAVE NOT A CLUE ABOUT HOW MUSLIMS THINK.
LET ME TELL YOU.

1. there are two sides to Wahabiism. Most are normal and peaceful, like you and me. they go on holidays,buy american brands and like the west and america in particular.
then there are always the right wingers. they are in every family all over the world, not just islamic families, and they are not all terrorists.

2. the Muslims don't like the jews for the one reason that their land was taken off them in 1948, and more land is being lost daily to the state of Israel, so think about that. think also that america is always helping the Israelis out against the Palestinians, so of course the muslims won't like that.

3. most Muslims DO NOT LIKE america's aggressive behaviour and STONGLY DISAGREE with americas strategy and behaviour regarding the war on terror, palestine, their attitude to muslims, Abu ghraib, and america's lust for the middle east's oil. all of this is pushing them further and further in resentment and anger towards what america is doing in the world, so more people are going to the right.

I am not a muslim or actually of saudi arabian stock, but I have lived with them long enouhg to know this.

please think carefully that of the millions of people in the middle east few are antagonistic.

Wahabism is denounced by Islam.. The Wahabis teach their "Muslim" followers to walk on the right side of a road, while other non-believers have to kneel down and walk on the left-side..

You think a religion would accept that form of degradation?.. Hell.. do you think its followers will accept that form of degradation?

No.. Wahabism is a sect, and by far the most loathed.. It just happens to be the sect followed by your friends, the Saudi Royal Family.. and anyone who disagrees is sent "behind the sun" as the Arabic expression goes..

And Muslims do read the Quran.. the fact that the Quran needs to be recited in the five daily prayers means that all Muslims are required to utter its words of wisdom, at least five times a day..

And you take all "slaying the idolaters" verses as just that.. It appears you were never taught how to read "in context" and how to consider the events and the environment surrounding the time those verses were received by the Prophet..

Funny how this "uneducated idiotic Muslim" knows more about the basics of literary analysis and the methods of propaganda than you do.
No true scottsman much?

The islamist terrorists use these verses to incite violence against non-muslims. Unless you can prove that the context of the quotes makes them acceptable, or that the translation is wrong, I think you are full of it. You seem to be trying to make excuses for terrorists who use the koran and hadith as recruiting tools. From your posts, recent and early, I think you hate America, and would support any of our enemies, no matter how barbaric.

I do not know if Refused Party Program knows Arabic, but I do.. and yes, the problem with many Quranic translations is the fact that... it can't be translated. There's almost always a fault with the translation. Thus, people who are really passionate when it comes to learning about Islam, and people who want to engage in debates and know what they're talking about usually decide to learn the basics of Arabic, especially Arabic Poetry, before studying the Quran..

And what do you know.. they seem impressed..

guys, your all americans right?... well let me tell you something,
I come from The netherlands, because of its excellent social rights and a secured minimum cash check every dutch citizen gets we have allot of imigrants, mostly our fault, we brought them here in the 50's when we needed workers. Most of these people are muslim. We now have a problem because a part of the younger muslims aren't intergrated that well. That particular group has been known to steal, lie, and having no job. Because the effect of these people on society are very extreme mostly because just like in america the press likes point at them giving them the fault of allot of things, "their immigrants, lazy stuppid farmers that our former corrupt government took here..". thats called ignorance, black people are now a big problem in america just because for so long they where pionted at by media and people who were invluenced by the media, they start to make trouble they dont want to be the weaklings the so called thiefs they there for become because the others their getting sick of being blamed for everything.. Stop pointing at people racial and because of their religion just because a smaller group stands out.. (only because they werent good edjucated, they were never intergrated.. because they arent given the oppertunity to.) You create your own problems.. Terrorists dont attack because they have no reason.. last thing you got to do then is attack a country those terrorists just happend to came from. You should solve problem to make sure the terrorists dont want to attack you.. solve them on a peacefull way because once more agression has shown that te knife has two sides where it can kill you with.. Promblems are allways created by yourself almost never because of the opposit side.. thank you for the time


Cya Niels
What if the terrorist's problem is that their version of islam hasn't conquered the world? What if they want to wage war untill all the earth is Dar al Islam? Should we solve the problem by converting everyone and instituting sharia law worldwide? That's what Bin Laden wants.

An alcoholic??.. An alcoholic?.. Proof?..

So the 13 year old wife is ok with you then?

Meh ... the "common man on the street" is what should let you know. Just because a person isn't American, doesn't mean he/she isn't dumb as a rock. ;)

"We the people" are often sheep to our government's propoganda ... no matter what nation you live in, ya know?



I'm going to assume you're white and probably Christian. If I'm wrong, I'm sorry because I know we've spoken before and I can't remember.

Now, being a white Christian, would you appreciate being put through special screening, singled out for searches, and generally harassed because of the actions of Tim McVeigh?
White and atheist. If a bunch of white atheists were killing people worldwide, I would speak out against them, and understand the extra security measures aimed at my kind. I'm not a hypocrite.

Islam didn't spread like wildfire through the middle east because of willing conversions. Read your history. Muhammad was a warlord who fought, raped and pillaged accross the area. He converted people through the threat of violence.

Quick ... name one religion that hasn't been spread through tyrrany and violence and/or has a truly peaceful history. Just one. Careful, now, I can already prove you wrong. ;)

I do not know if Refused Party Program knows Arabic, but I do.. and yes, the problem with many Quranic translations is the fact that... it can't be translated. There's almost always a fault with the translation. Thus, people who are really passionate when it comes to learning about Islam, and people who want to engage in debates and know what they're talking about usually decide to learn the basics of Arabic, especially Arabic Poetry, before studying the Quran..

And what do you know.. they seem impressed..
Why can't it be translated? Maybe someone who's going to study a new language, learn the literature of that tongue, and study the culture that goes along with it just to read one book is inclined before the fact to be impressed with it.

White and atheist. If a bunch of white atheists were killing people worldwide, I would speak out against them, and understand the extra security measures aimed at my kind. I'm not a hypocrite.

Okie ... sorry about the Christian bit ... wasn't sure and I hate to assume, but you know ... *shrug*.

White atheists, eh? Ted Bundy, Sam Berkowitz, and Charlie Manson were all white atheists. ;)

However, I know, that's beside the point. I do highly doubt that you'd lie back and take it like a sheep, though. I don't see too many Atheist sheep. :D

Quick ... name one religion that hasn't been spread through tyrrany and violence and/or has a truly peaceful history. Just one. Careful, now, I can already prove you wrong. ;)

im not gonna quistion ur knowledge.. but u could enlighten me about buddism

Quick ... name one religion that hasn't been spread through tyrrany and violence and/or has a truly peaceful history. Just one. Careful, now, I can already prove you wrong. ;)
Most every religion went through a violent period. It's just that most every religion has mellowed out. Some strains of Islam seem incapable of peacefull coexistance.

Okie ... sorry about the Christian bit ... wasn't sure and I hate to assume, but you know ... *shrug*.

White atheists, eh? Ted Bundy, Sam Berkowitz, and Charlie Manson were all white atheists. ;)

However, I know, that's beside the point. I do highly doubt that you'd lie back and take it like a sheep, though. I don't see too many Atheist sheep. :D
It's not sheepish behavior to accept reasonable security measures.

im not gonna quistion ur knowledge.. but u could enlighten me about buddism
There was a tibetan buddist warlord as I recall, but his name currently escapes me. There was a painting of him at the school where I used to study martial arts. The thais are buddist, and they invented a nice combat style (krabi krabong). They conquered and converted tribespeople.

So the 13 year old wife is ok with you then?

It's certainly not okay in modern society, but over 1000 years ago, I would suspect this was common practice. I'd also advise people here--including Americans, and NOT just Southerners, thank you very much!--to check their genealogies very thoroughly. You would be surprised how long it took customs of that nature to end, here in this country.

joey p: "What if the terrorist's problem is that their version of islam hasn't conquered the world? What if they want to wage war untill all the earth is Dar al Islam? Should we solve the problem by converting everyone and instituting sharia law worldwide? That's what Bin Laden wants. "

Well we sacrificed millions of poor people by sending them to a middle east country because some lame old guys wants them to conquer some land... So called Crusaders told ya.. we make our problems ourself.. we pay the price of something our ensesters did... too bad that innocent peeps gotto die because of that.. religion should have been a good thing it turned out that its the worst thing ever happend to us..

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

indeed. the reason is called "racism."

same reason that the media is searching for a rationale for the suicide bombings in chechnya, and explaining it as "desperation poverty, hopelessness" and so forth, but when it happens in the middle east it's taken in stride without needing an explanation. somehow people need to believe that pale-skinned folk near the Caucasus mountains ("caucasian" anyone?) have a "reason" of some sort for destroying themselves and civilian bystanders. apparently arabs aren't thought to need such a reason.

also, arabs aren't searched because they're muslim. they aren't singled out because they pray toward mecca. they're singled out because of how they look. plenty of the folks getting shot at by the israeli defense force are christian arabs (as difficult a concept as that may be for you)

it's also important to remember that islam isn't the catholic church, there's no grand high ruler of all islam, it's an extremely widespread and diverse religion with members all over the damn planet. what makes you think that muslims have any control over other muslims by virtue of being muslims?

it's not about religion, it's about stereotypes and prejudice and hypocrisy.
until you take it upon yourself to bring your violent co-racialists in your VERY SAME COUNTRY (the ones bombing abortion clinics and/or still marching around in white hoods or khaki and armbands) to justice, then kindly shut the fuck up.

salaam al leikum

So the 13 year old wife is ok with you then?

...You do know we are talking about mohammed here right..? You know... The guy who lived A COUPLE CENTURIES AGO.... So in todays society, a 13 year old wife is weird to the extreme, back in the day ? Not so much no.. And since were on the subject.. We cannot judge people who lived in the past, their lives were too radically different from ours, and one might point out that.. 13 year old marriage in those times.. would probably be as if a 16 year old got married.. Something that I've seen happend personally. The normal age of marriage around that time was 15-16 thusmaking the 13 year old only 2 years early..

Quick ... name one religion that hasn't been spread through tyrrany and violence and/or has a truly peaceful history. Just one. Careful, now, I can already prove you wrong. ;)


Exactly the reason why we are atheists, some character you've never met, you'll never see and have no real proof of existance yet people worldwide live their lives by his word! Cos the bible, koran etc says he exists come on get real what if (and it's likely ) this judgement day never comes?

Why can't it be translated?

Many non-Romance languages are very difficult, if not impossible, to translate neatly and directly into Romance languages. It's where we get fun things like "All your base are belong to us!"

Unfortunately, I don't know Arabic and cannot give a good example, but I am a Hebrew scholar and can show examples all day long of how amusing English translations of Hebrew texts can be. It's why you can have so many different and varying translations of the Bible into English, but no matter how you do it, a lot gets lost.

The very first word of the Hebrew Bible (Torah) is "Berashith". The closest direct to English translation I have seen of that one word is: "The Spirit of God brought into continuous expression the dual principle of life and death by containing it and realizing it in an infinite array of cosmic manifestations."

Yet, for some reason, every English Bible I've seen has it translated simply as "beginning".

Not quite the same thing, eh?

Salaam is right naif... ingorant people are these days.. Racists are the ones that should be brought to court for their crimes.. AND YES JUST BECAUSE THEY THINK RACIST THOUGHTS!! RACISTS HAVE ISSUE'S GO FIGURE THEM OUT AT THE SHRINK'S OFFICE PLEASE!

I'd rather be a white person living in Qatar or Jordan than an Arab
Muslim living in the US of A. Theres a certain amount of understanding I'd have going to Qatar or Jordan, they are both Oligarchys. However, an Arabic Muslim in the US should be treated the same as every other citizen, becuase of the principles of Democracy that Americans always try to uphold.

Of course, before I would travel anywhere, I would ensure that I could be easily identified as a Canadian, because most people are much more likely to tolerate a Canadian over an American, and we all look the same.

joey p: "What if the terrorist's problem is that their version of islam hasn't conquered the world? What if they want to wage war untill all the earth is Dar al Islam? Should we solve the problem by converting everyone and instituting sharia law worldwide? That's what Bin Laden wants. "

Well we sacrificed millions of poor people by sending them to a middle east country because some lame old guys wants them to conquer some land... So called Crusaders told ya.. we make our problems ourself.. we pay the price of something our ensesters did... too bad that innocent peeps gotto die because of that.. religion should have been a good thing it turned out that its the worst thing ever happend to us..
The crusades were partly triggered by muslim incursions into europe.

...You do know we are talking about mohammed here right..? You know... The guy who lived A COUPLE CENTURIES AGO.... So in todays society, a 13 year old wife is weird to the extreme, back in the day ? Not so much no.. And since were on the subject.. We cannot judge people who lived in the past, their lives were too radically different from ours, and one might point out that.. 13 year old marriage in those times.. would probably be as if a 16 year old got married.. Something that I've seen happend personally. The normal age of marriage around that time was 15-16 thusmaking the 13 year old only 2 years early..

Thats the very point we are talking centuries ago, so why are people today still following the words of the koran, bible etc..

Salaam is right naif... ingorant people are these days.. Racists are the ones that should be brought to court for their crimes.. AND YES JUST BECAUSE THEY THINK RACIST THOUGHTS!! RACISTS HAVE ISSUE'S GO FIGURE THEM OUT AT THE SHRINK'S OFFICE PLEASE!

Guys like u r the once spreading hate.. thinking u r right and the other is wrong.. and condemn other ppl bcz they think differently.. Im not a racist btw..

You are very simulair to a racist

those incurions joey p cost the lifes of poor farmers.. incursions.. pff you mean that they invaded spain? well they werent sooo christian bak in the old days.. mainly because spain was devided into Spain and aregon... the pope has noooo right to send those peeps into death not even for a good cause.. what it wasnt@!#

indeed. the reason is called "racism."

same reason that the media is searching for a rationale for the suicide bombings in chechnya, and explaining it as "desperation poverty, hopelessness" and so forth, but when it happens in the middle east it's taken in stride without needing an explanation. somehow people need to believe that pale-skinned folk near the Caucasus mountains ("caucasian" anyone?) have a "reason" of some sort for destroying themselves and civilian bystanders. apparently arabs aren't thought to need such a reason.

also, arabs aren't searched because they're muslim. they aren't singled out because they pray toward mecca. they're singled out because of how they look. plenty of the folks getting shot at by the israeli defense force are christian arabs (as difficult a concept as that may be for you)

it's also important to remember that islam isn't the catholic church, there's no grand high ruler of all islam, it's an extremely widespread and diverse religion with members all over the damn planet. what makes you think that muslims have any control over other muslims by virtue of being muslims?

it's not about religion, it's about stereotypes and prejudice and hypocrisy.
until you take it upon yourself to bring your violent co-racialists in your VERY SAME COUNTRY (the ones bombing abortion clinics and/or still marching around in white hoods or khaki and armbands) to justice, then kindly shut the fuck up.

salaam al leikum
Last time I checked islam isn't a race. They have black, white, semitic, and asian members aplenty. True, islam doesn't have a central religious authority, but individual groups of muslims do. They trust in the interpretations of muslim scholars, some of whom are violently hatefull towards all non-muslims (and some muslims with different views). Let's face it. The guys who hijack planes and blow up busses, and kill schoolchildren don't tend to be blond haired blue eyed aryans. If I'm threatened by nazis, I'll look with suspicion on the latter, if I'm threatened by islamists, I'll look with suspicion on arabs and south asians.

...You do know we are talking about mohammed here right..? You know... The guy who lived A COUPLE CENTURIES AGO.... So in todays society, a 13 year old wife is weird to the extreme, back in the day ? Not so much no.. And since were on the subject.. We cannot judge people who lived in the past, their lives were too radically different from ours, and one might point out that.. 13 year old marriage in those times.. would probably be as if a 16 year old got married.. Something that I've seen happend personally. The normal age of marriage around that time was 15-16 thusmaking the 13 year old only 2 years early..
She wasn't thirteen! Aisha was 6 when married, 9 when it was consumated.

im not gonna quistion ur knowledge.. but u could enlighten me about buddism

Let's see ....

I'd say just look up Japanese war crimes. Buddhism is an integral part of Japan and Japanese culture. Granted, nothing has been done in the name of Buddha, but that's because Buddhism is an Atheistic way of life. However, some groups of Buddhists (such as the Japanese) have used their interpretations of Buddhism in order to justify certain atrocities like the Nanjing Massacre, et al.

Let's see ....

I'd say just look up Japanese war crimes. Buddhism is an integral part of Japan and Japanese culture. Granted, nothing has been done in the name of Buddha, but that's because Buddhism is an Atheistic way of life. However, some groups of Buddhists (such as the Japanese) have used their interpretations of Buddhism in order to justify certain atrocities like the Nanjing Massacre, et al.

Not to nitpick...and maybe to learn...is Shintoism considered a form of Buddhism or not?

I'd rather be a white person living in Qatar or Jordan than an Arab
Muslim living in the US of A. Theres a certain amount of understanding I'd have going to Qatar or Jordan, they are both Oligarchys. However, an Arabic Muslim in the US should be treated the same as every other citizen, becuase of the principles of Democracy that Americans always try to uphold.

Of course, before I would travel anywhere, I would ensure that I could be easily identified as a Canadian, because most people are much more likely to tolerate a Canadian over an American, and we all look the same.
Actually muslims in the USA have prospered. They tend to be better educated and wealthier than non-muslims. So much for American racism.

oke infinity or what ever your name is.. im the bad guy now? Racists are invluenced by the media or by trauma's.. thats were your right... but but that doesnt give them the right to judge about people they dont know..only because a smaller group they think has don e them harm..
Oke you can try to make me think your right (thats solves another insult..) convince me m8... here i am

So the 13 year old wife is ok with you then?

My great-grandmother was married at 14 and had her first child at 15. Her husband was 10 years older than she. We're talkin' 20th century US, too.

those incurions joey p cost the lifes of poor farmers.. incursions.. pff you mean that they invaded spain? well they werent sooo christian bak in the old days.. mainly because spain was devided into Spain and aregon... the pope has noooo right to send those peeps into death not even for a good cause.. what it wasnt@!#
Learn your history. Aragon didn't exist prior to the Muslim invasions. When the Muslims invaded, the Iberian peninsula had been a Christian nation under the Visigoths for about 400 years. The Spanish Christians were later divided into kingdoms like Castile and Aragon but even though they were divided they were among the most zealous and pious believers in all Christendom.

those incurions joey p cost the lifes of poor farmers.. incursions.. pff you mean that they invaded spain? well they werent sooo christian bak in the old days.. mainly because spain was devided into Spain and aregon... the pope has noooo right to send those peeps into death not even for a good cause.. what it wasnt@!#
Not just spain, but also eastern europe. Vlad the impaler made his name by executing moslem soldiers who invaded his land to bring it under control of the caliph. Rome sent troops to try to push back this threat to the european way of life and reclaim christian lands in the middle east that were forcibly annexed into the islamic empire. Naturaly things got ugly because the world was a pretty barbaric place at the time.

Let's see ....

I'd say just look up Japanese war crimes. Buddhism is an integral part of Japan and Japanese culture. Granted, nothing has been done in the name of Buddha, but that's because Buddhism is an Atheistic way of life. However, some groups of Buddhists (such as the Japanese) have used their interpretations of Buddhism in order to justify certain atrocities like the Nanjing Massacre, et al.
Shinto was the Imperial religion. Similar to chinese taoism in some respects.

My great-grandmother was married at 14 and had her first child at 15. Her husband was 10 years older than she. We're talkin' 20th century US, too.

This is EXACTLY why I told people to research their genealogies. My father has found similar things in our family history, and I suspect a LOT of other people here would find some surprises, too.

This is EXACTLY why I told people to research their genealogies. My father has found similar things in our family history, and I suspect a LOT of other people here would find some surprises, too.
Yeah, but 9 years old? Come on, that's inexcusable.

Not just spain, but also eastern europe. Vlad the impaler made his name by executing moslem soldiers who invaded his land to bring it under control of the caliph. Rome sent troops to try to push back this threat to the european way of life and reclaim christian lands in the middle east that were forcibly annexed into the islamic empire. Naturaly things got ugly because the world was a pretty barbaric place at the time.
Vlad the Impaler existed about 200 years after the last medieval Crusades ended. Although I do agree with you that Muslims have been on bloody campaigns against their neighbors, both Christian and non-Christian, but a lot of people set a double standard and constantly complain about the Crusades.

Not to nitpick...and maybe to learn...is Shintoism considered a form of Buddhism or not?

Nah. I've met some people who kinda mix the two, but they're completely different religions. Shinto is more Pagan. It's nature worship, uses divination, and is a shamanistic practice.

Whatever you guys say.. the piont is that we have invaded allot of country's too.. we have killed allot of innocent peeps.. so have the muslims they arent any different then any other religion. Christians are being used too.. look at the priests that fuck little children.. look at the pope that judges about gay peeps and non christian peeps.. propaganda.. too much of it.. just like in nations in the middle east. We need to stop blaming them. we have our own issue's, poor peeps.. corruption.. we should make somehow peace with these people.

I'd rather be a white person living in Qatar or Jordan than an Arab
Muslim living in the US of A. Theres a certain amount of understanding I'd have going to Qatar or Jordan, they are both Oligarchys. However, an Arabic Muslim in the US should be treated the same as every other citizen, becuase of the principles of Democracy that Americans always try to uphold.

Of course, before I would travel anywhere, I would ensure that I could be easily identified as a Canadian, because most people are much more likely to tolerate a Canadian over an American, and we all look the same.

Being English,we have extemely large muslim areas, schools,mosques even areas full of shops and restaraunts and on eid a road in Manchester is closed off sometimes to traffic, which I have got no problem with believe me, but could/do white english have the same in Saudi,Pakistan,Iran, Syria etc are there churches, pubs etc in these countries? I'm thinking no but then I have'nt been.

This is EXACTLY why I told people to research their genealogies. My father has found similar things in our family history, and I suspect a LOT of other people here would find some surprises, too.


But are we talking by choice or by force?

guys gotto go.. if you have anything to say to me just send me a message.. and infinity im not a racist because i h8 racists am i?
i have black yellow pruple green orange friends no mather of their relgions... and if you ment that.. well im a racist against racists! Fuck hitler Fuck the white power fuck racism...thats all for now cya all later!

Yeah, but 9 years old? Come on, that's inexcusable.

I can't find any sources that Aisha was 9 outside of Christian Right and Women's Oppression websites. Is there a more credible source to her age?

guys gotto go.. if you have anything to say to me just send me a message.. and infinity im not a racist because i h8 racists am i?
i have black yellow pruple green orange friends no mather of their relgions... and if you ment that.. well im a racist against racists! Fuck hitler Fuck the white power fuck racism...thats all for now cya all later!


Yeh me too, whats really mad is that we are all sat here on a Sat night!!

I can't find any sources that Aisha was 9 outside of Christian Right and Women's Oppression websites. Is there a more credible source to her age?
I've seen it on secular websites critical of islam. It would take me a while to hunt them down again. Still, I don't think muslims in the west would want to publicize such a thing, so I don't think you'll find it on many pro-islam websites.

Poodog:

You live in a Democratic country. The concept of Democracy is that all citizens have the same rights, (although it isn't as easy to practice). A lot of Arab and Muslim-based countries are not Democracies, therefore there isn't that expectation of equal rights.

In Jordan, living areas are divided along a muslim/christian line. Those who are not muslim get their own living areas.

As for the countries you mentioned, what makes you think that we deserve our own place to drink/worship/sleep?

oke infinity or what ever your name is.. im the bad guy now? Racists are invluenced by the media or by trauma's.. thats were your right... but but that doesnt give them the right to judge about people they dont know..only because a smaller group they think has don e them harm..
Oke you can try to make me think your right (thats solves another insult..) convince me m8... here i am

Hello Volkert van de G....
you shouldn't judge other ppl either.. alot of ppl hate other ppl.. some hate nerds.. some hate muslims bcz they think they want us dead.. some hate racists bcz they think they want some1 dead.. Im just saying that that is equally bad.. live up to ur own ideals..

I've seen it on secular websites critical of islam. It would take me a while to hunt them down again. Still, I don't think muslims in the west would want to publicize such a thing, so I don't think you'll find it on many pro-islam websites.

Nod ... and I imagine she may have been 9 ... I don't know as I wasn't there. However, I also know that society's standards change. Maybe 9 was acceptable at the time and at that place. Mohammed also had more than one wife, which in 21st century America isn't acceptable by societal standard.

It's all perspective, I suppose.

Whatever you guys say.. the piont is that we have invaded allot of country's too.. we have killed allot of innocent peeps..

"We," as in today's Christian societies, are not responsible for long-ago invasions... Christianity has moderated but Islam to this day continues to be involved in large-scale religious wars with all of its neighbors wheither they be Christian, Jewish, Hindu, athiest, whatever. You can't compare the fundamentalist, violent Christianity of 500 years ago with modern-day Islam. It is ridiculous to cite centuries-old instances of witchburnings and Crusades to somehow prove that 20th century Christianity is like that.

so have the muslims they arent any different then any other religion. Christians are being used too.. look at the priests that fuck little children.. look at the pope that judges about gay peeps and non christian peeps.. propaganda.. too much of it.. just like in nations in the middle east. We need to stop blaming them. we have our own issue's, poor peeps.. corruption.. we should make somehow peace with these people.
Christian nations have its own share of intolerance to work out, there is no doubt that modern Islamic nations and society are the most socially backward and have the most catching up to do with the rest of humanity.

Poodog:

You live in a Democratic country. The concept of Democracy is that all citizens have the same rights, (although it isn't as easy to practice). A lot of Arab and Muslim-based countries are not Democracies, therefore there isn't that expectation of equal rights.

In Jordan, living areas are divided along a muslim/christian line. Those who are not muslim get their own living areas.

As for the countries you mentioned, what makes you think that we deserve our own place to drink/worship/sleep?

Not saying anyone deserves anything, just trying to understand the Muslim persecution theory when worldwide they have the same rights in a non muslim country, when we dont get them in a muslim one, understand the democracy thing just not the persecution thing.

Nod ... and I imagine she may have been 9 ... I don't know as I wasn't there. However, I also know that society's standards change. Maybe 9 was acceptable at the time and at that place. Mohammed also had more than one wife, which in 21st century America isn't acceptable by societal standard.

It's all perspective, I suppose.
It can't be too pleasant for a nine year old to be penetrated by a grown man's penis. Unless muhammad was hung like a mouse.

Christian nations have its own share of intolerance to work out, there is no doubt that modern Islamic nations and society are the most socially backward and have the most catching up to do with the rest of humanity. Also you can't compare the fundamentalist, violent Christianity of 500 years ago with modern-day Islam. It is ridiculous to cite centuries-old instances of witchburnings and Crusades to somehow prove that 20th century Christianity is like that. Christianity has moderated while Islam continues to be involved in large-scale religious wars with all of its neighbors wheither they be Christian, Jewish, Hindu, athiest, whatever.

:fluffle:

I g2g.. I hope u guys have worked out world peace by tommorow.. ;)

It can't be too pleasant for a nine year old to be penetrated by a grown man's penis. Unless muhammad was hung like a mouse.

Heh ... well ... I've never seen any pictures, but anything is possible. :D

It can't be too pleasant for a nine year old to be penetrated by a grown man's penis. Unless muhammad was hung like a mouse.

I think u could compare it to anal sex.. uhhh not that I know how it is to penetrate a 9 year old..

Nod ... and I imagine she may have been 9 ... I don't know as I wasn't there. However, I also know that society's standards change. Maybe 9 was acceptable at the time and at that place. Mohammed also had more than one wife, which in 21st century America isn't acceptable by societal standard.

It's all perspective, I suppose.

There are different stories, some believe she was married to Muhammad when she was nine, other stories believe the age was 11.. He penetrated her only much later. He also married Khadija, who was decades older than he was.. What's your point Joey P.??

The prophet married some women, like Umu-Salamah, because he genuinely wanted to take care of her, not to have children from her.. Others, like Khadija and Aysha, he married out of love.. But still, what's your point?

Considering the hardships the bedouin society faced, it was very common to get married in your teenage early years. If I was a bedouin, I would be married right now, with children too, who knows?. You have no idea how different concepts like distribution of wealth and job-hunts were interpreted in the bedouin society, so stop taking things out of context and relying on only one frame of reference, yours. That's called bigotry.


It can't be too pleasant for a nine year old to be penetrated by a grown man's penis. Unless muhammad was hung like a mouse.

That's an attack, not an argument. It's at this point that I would act if this discussion were carried out face-to-face.

Because it is virtual, I can do nothing more than report you to the mods.

*something*

That's an attack, not an argument. It's at this point that I would act if this discussion were carried out face-to-face.

Because it is virtual, I can do nothing more than report you to the mods.
Awww dont spoil the fun.. Its a nice tread and this forum is bound to get another one simulair to this one.. just let it be... or at least give him a change to rephrase or something if u think he is really crossing the line..

EDIT: I dont see the problem of that guy posting that about penetrating btw.. u overreact.. mods wont support u I think

There are different stories, some believe she was married to Muhammad when she was nine, other stories believe the age was 11.. He penetrated her only much later. He also married Khadija, who was decades older than he was.. What's your point Joey P.??

The prophet married some women, like Umu-Salamah, because he genuinely wanted to take care of her, not to have children from her.. Others, like Khadija and Aysha, he married out of love.. But still, what's your point?

Considering the hardships the bedouin society faced, it was very common to get married in your teenage early years. If I was a bedouin, I would be married right now, with children too, who knows?. You have no idea how different concepts like distribution of wealth and job-hunts were interpreted in the bedouin society, so stop taking things out of context and relying on only one frame of reference, yours. That's called bigotry.



That's an attack, not an argument. It's at this point that I would act if this discussion were carried out face-to-face.

Because it is virtual, I can do nothing more than report you to the mods.
Report me to the mods for what? It's not an attack it's a simple statement of fact. Fucking a 9 year old is child abuse and rape. A kid can't make the decision to grant consent. As for saying if we were face to face you would act, I seriously doubt it. Empty threats on discussion groups just go to show the weakness of those who make them.

Did I ever suggest my retaliation would be in the form of violence? I do not resort to violence in real-life..

Like I said, you attacked the prophet and your information was completely false. The woman was engaged to him by the age of 11 as the majority of sources suggest, and was not penetrated until much later.

You also skipped my entire argument.. respond to the many of my posts you have left unanswered.

Did I ever suggest my retaliation would be in the form of violence? I do not resort to violence in real-life..

Like I said, you attacked the prophet and your information was completely false. The woman was engaged to him by the age of 11 as the majority of sources suggest, and was not penetrated until much later.

You also skipped my entire argument.. respond to the many of my posts you have left unanswered.
You can't report ppl for ppl giving a wrong argument about THE PROPHET.. noone was talkin bout violence btw.. calm down b4 u hurt urself behind ur comp.. :headbang:

Did I ever suggest my retaliation would be in the form of violence? I do not resort to violence in real-life..

Like I said, you attacked the prophet and your information was completely false. The woman was engaged to him by the age of 11 as the majority of sources suggest, and was not penetrated until much later.

You also skipped my entire argument.. respond to the many of my posts you have left unanswered.
Looking back I noticed that I have posted responses. with quotes even.

Like I said, you attacked the prophet and your information was completely false.
This is a free speech forum and anyone can attack anybody... most people here do not believe the prophet Muhammad is anyone special who deserves special privileges and you have to accept their right to an opinion. You can call it flame baiting but I think that would just highlight the fact that Muslims take their religion much more seriously than Christian socieities do and thus Islamic socieities have much greater potential for religious violence. Jesus, the Pope, the Church, and Christians gets flamed here on a daily basis without incident.

This is a free speech forum and anyone can attack anybody... most people here do not believe the prophet Muhammad is anyone special who deserves special privileges and you have to accept their right to an opinion. You can call it flame baiting but I think that would just highlight the fact that Muslims take their religion much more seriously than Christian socieities do and thus Islamic socieities have much greater potential for religious violence. Jesus, the Pope, the Church, and Christians gets flamed here on a daily basis without incident.
rofl haha that was exactly the reason y I deleted my post.. He makes the muslims look even worse:D while trying to defend them.. I was thinkin bout pointing it out but I didn't wanna attack him to much...

Im off now.. most of my posts r off topic so.. id better leave..

Yeah, exactly.. Those terrorist idiots who executed massacres like Sabra and Shatile must be brought to justice..

Oh wait.. I realize you're talking about Muslim terrorists.. Hmm.. Yeah.. Islam is bad.. kill them.. yeah..


I was recently visiting Mauthausen on my vacation in Austria (how ironic, eh?).. and at least one hundred people I was with started crying when they were dragged into the vile gassing chambers of Adolf Hitler.. For the next hour, everyone noted how "vile" Hitler was for massacring "poor Jews". Note that, according to the guide himself, Mauthausen was a labour camp, and the Jewish population at Mauthausen was minute compared to the Russian and Polish populations.

Then I brought up Sabra and Shatila.. And do you know how the Americans replied as soon as they heard "Israel" come out of my mouth? :

"But that was Israel.. A democracy.. they are fighting evil terrorists.. they are free to do whatever they want in their own land.. Surely you don't support Muslim terrorists.. Self-defense.. blah.. blah.. blah.."

And what about the Liberty?.. Isn't the attack on the USS Liberty just as vile as the one on the USS Cole?.. Does that not constitute terrorism because it was carried out by missiles and torpedoes, whereas throwing rocks is?

Hypocrites. Avoid double standards, you and Biff.. Your ignorance knows no bounds.

As for the issue of "waking up", believe me, we are more awake than most of you are.. It's just that we're powerless.. so what do we do to voice our concerns?.. You hold demonstrations, we shut up, except the serious ones among us.. they prefer to strap on a belt of home-made explosives and drive into American tanks...

Hey.. you asked for it.. You said "bring em on"... Hell, that's exactly what he's gonna do.. Don't like it.. tough.. get the hell out..



I cannot believe the racism in hearing the tone you adopt referring to Hitler. He did kill innocents, and I think if you had died in a gas chamber your defensive tone of indescriminate murderers, you would probably have something else on the matter. Fascists like yourself always pretend to give a shit about the so called "attrocities" of Israel, when in actual fact you probably detest all people unlike yourself, and are simply using this as a ploy to further attack the Jews. Time and time again Israel has been proved innocent of alleged massacres by the UN such as in Jenin.

To sum up Hitler was a brutal, rascist; so are the modern day terrorists; so are their excusers; and the chances are, so are you!

It has been mentioned that Bush attacked terrorism (Iraq in particular) to finish off what Bush Senior had started. Now i can see why they said this. Bush did seem to send US troops into Afghanistan and Iraq very quickly after 9/11.

I think anyone would admit that America is the biggest super-power in the world. But part of its power is in its commercialisation of most of the world. You can't go to many places that have not been touched by 'McDonaldisation' as it's called. Maybe that's why Muslim's feel threatened. If someone stuck a money making kiosk in my back garden and tried to make all my family eat something they shouldn't, I'd be annoyed too.

In conclusion, I don't think Muslims are to blame for what they did. If someone hits you, you retaliate. The US can moan all it wants about how terrorism targets them, but the simple matter of fact is, they are mainly to blame for what happened. If they hadn't been so greedy and keen to step in and look like the heroes, nothing like this would have happened.

Tim

It has been mentioned that Bush attacked terrorism (Iraq in particular) to finish off what Bush Senior had started. Now i can see why they said this. Bush did seem to send US troops into Afghanistan and Iraq very quickly after 9/11.

I think anyone would admit that America is the biggest super-power in the world. But part of its power is in its commercialisation of most of the world. You can't go to many places that have not been touched by 'McDonaldisation' as it's called. Maybe that's why Muslim's feel threatened. If someone stuck a money making kiosk in my back garden and tried to make all my family eat something they shouldn't, I'd be annoyed too.

In conclusion, I don't think Muslims are to blame for what they did. If someone hits you, you retaliate. The US can moan all it wants about how terrorism targets them, but the simple matter of fact is, they are mainly to blame for what happened. If they hadn't been so greedy and keen to step in and look like the heroes, nothing like this would have happened.

Tim
the presence of mc donalds in muslim countries excuses terrorism?

You have got to be kidding me. No one forces people to eat mc donalds, listen to rap music, or watch american movies. People do these things because they want to. We didn't hit the terrorists. they hit first.

Most every religion went through a violent period. It's just that most every religion has mellowed out. Some strains of Islam seem incapable of peacefull coexistance.




We are always hearing Islam is a peaceful religion, since when? Every history book I've ever read starts from the time of Mohammed and they have invaded, controlled, forced by taxation, the Caliphs took Syria and Iran and Palestine after they forced the Bedouin tribe with military action, the Ottoman empire took large parts of Europe and, Islam wants world domination always has and wont stop until they get it or until it reduces the world to a 3rd world war.

We are always hearing Islam is a peaceful religion, since when? Every history book I've ever read starts from the time of Mohammed and they have invaded, controlled, forced by taxation, the Caliphs took Syria and Iran and Palestine after they forced the Bedouin tribe with military action, the Ottoman empire took large parts of Europe and, Islam wants world domination always has and wont stop until they get it or until it reduces the world to a 3rd world war.
Some groups of muslims are still hung up on this. Those are the people we're fighting. It really makes me mad when people say the terrorists are fighting because we "oppressed" them. I guess not scrapping the constitution in favor of sharia is oppression.

It has been mentioned that Bush attacked terrorism (Iraq in particular) to finish off what Bush Senior had started. Now i can see why they said this. Bush did seem to send US troops into Afghanistan and Iraq very quickly after 9/11.

I think anyone would admit that America is the biggest super-power in the world. But part of its power is in its commercialisation of most of the world. You can't go to many places that have not been touched by 'McDonaldisation' as it's called. Maybe that's why Muslim's feel threatened. If someone stuck a money making kiosk in my back garden and tried to make all my family eat something they shouldn't, I'd be annoyed too.

In conclusion, I don't think Muslims are to blame for what they did. If someone hits you, you retaliate. The US can moan all it wants about how terrorism targets them, but the simple matter of fact is, they are mainly to blame for what happened. If they hadn't been so greedy and keen to step in and look like the heroes, nothing like this would have happened.

Tim
Asolute sh**e you can put a mcdonalds anywhere people dont have to eat there, enough muslims in England use them, when I flew into Bahrain this year the first thing I saw as we descended was a KFC if it was'nt doing business it would have to close,fact is muslims like and need the fast lifestyle the western world offers like the rest of us, simple, you hate the U.S dont live there, dont buy it's goods, no levis, no pepsi, no KFC, no McDonalds, no nike etc, easy when you think about it.

Some groups of muslims are still hung up on this. Those are the people we're fighting. It really makes me mad when people say the terrorists are fighting because we "oppressed" them. I guess not scrapping the constitution in favor of sharia is oppression.

What they are fighting is the centuries old war when the Roman armies took back parts of Europe they thought they'd taken, where there still remained a force, fighting is still going on today ie; the Balkans.

Anyway Im definately going now, I'll be dreaming of marauding muslims taking over the world and going to mcdonalds only to find, they only sell felafel and little glasses tea without milk and 10 sugars in each one!!
Hope I didnt sound like too much of a bigot, people should believe what they want, only all religious buliding should be dimolished and ANY religion should only be practiced in your own home and have no bearing on how a country is run, thats how it is in Poodog!

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?
*is a Muslim*

I can safely say that you are an ignorant person. The "common man" in the street of Egypt was not holding common views.

We are always hearing Islam is a peaceful religion, since when? Every history book I've ever read starts from the time of Mohammed and they have invaded, controlled, forced by taxation, the Caliphs took Syria and Iran and Palestine after they forced the Bedouin tribe with military action, the Ottoman empire took large parts of Europe and, Islam wants world domination always has and wont stop until they get it or until it reduces the world to a 3rd world war.
Do you not think it makes sense that the real Muslims are the ones preaching about compassion and love and peace, while the violent ones are the ones killing each other.

the presence of mc donalds in muslim countries excuses terrorism?


Sometimes the presence of McDonald's wants to make me blow things up. Ever try to drive past one with three kids in the van who know what those golden arches mean? *shudder*

Quick ... name one religion that hasn't been spread through tyrrany and violence and/or has a truly peaceful history. Just one. Careful, now, I can already prove you wrong. ;)
Hari Krishna


Unless you count them assaulting poeple at the airport with flowers as tyrrany and violence..

It's certainly not okay in modern society, but over 1000 years ago, I would suspect this was common practice. I'd also advise people here--including Americans, and NOT just Southerners, thank you very much!--to check their genealogies very thoroughly. You would be surprised how long it took customs of that nature to end, here in this country.
I think it had more to do with mortality rates than anything else.

Many folks didn't live for very long compared to today.

I am one to believe that parents rather than the state should determine when a person is ready for adult commitments/activities though having an age where the parents right to limit would expire would be a good idea.

well...
9/11/01: 3000 civillians dead (approx)

Iraq war: 9000 civilians dead (approx)


makes you wonder...

9/11/01 - 3,000 Americans dead
Iraq War - 9,000 non-Americans dead

Hope I didnt sound like too much of a bigot, people should believe what they want, only all religious buliding should be dimolished and ANY religion should only be practiced in your own home and have no bearing on how a country is run, thats how it is in Poodog!
You hope in vain. If you prevent people taking their religious beliefs into account when voting, you may as well abolish democracy: because what you are saying is "take any option so long as it is one I like".
Arguably, what you want is pretty close to what the Islamic loonies want - you're just adding them to the list of people to suppress.

Oh, I trust that Poodog still has slavery then; without the influence of the churches there is no way that slavery would have been abolished - it was simply too economically powerful.

Well that distinction is really bigotted.

At the rate the Baathists were killing people in Iraq, we've already saved a lot of innocent lives.

I promised I wouldn't argue or debate today in memory of 9/11 victims. I'm going to try to stick to it ..
Their memory isn't best served by letting others exploit what they died for and not speaking out against it.

9/11/01 - 3,000 Americans dead
Iraq War - 9,000 non-Americans dead
Well that distinction is really bigotted.

I didn't say all muslims are terrorists. I know that. I'm saying that the ones who aren't terrorists make excuses when terrorism happens rather than accepting that something is terribly wrong in muslim societies around the world. Their borders are bloody for a reason.

I am an American, I vote not for Bush I support not the war in that country, and I am not a crook. But a group of Muslims have apoligized to America for 9/11.

I saw an interview with a common man on the street in Egypt broadcast on CNN. He claimed the massacre in Beslan was the work of Jews. They were trying to discredit islam. This reaction was common after Sept. 11 in the muslim world as well. When will they wake up and realize that they are viewed as terrorists for a reason. They can't get visas for a reason. They are searched before boarding airplanes for a reason. When will they face their responsibility to bring their violent coreligionists to justice?

Why should they wake up, most of the world does not hold them accountable for anything. They are like prehistoric apes, roaming from country to country with their knuckle dragging antics, and bombs. Muslims and Islam itself shall be removed from the face of the earth, and all of those that pity them shall die with them.

Muslim women, rejoice, send your young men and women to bomb inocent children, you will eventually run out of people or be destroyed. Look at how you treated France, after they kissed your ass, you people sure are smart. I'll bet France is just waiting to help you again.

All Arabs are bigots, racist, homophobes, psychotic and need to be killed. Anyone who disagrees, just remember this is exactly what they say about everyone else in the world. Fuck'em
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

Why should they wake up, most of the world does not hold them accountable for anything. They are like prehistoric apes, roaming from country to country with their knuckle dragging antics, and bombs. Muslims and Islam itself shall be removed from the face of the earth, and all of those that pity them shall die with them.

Muslim women, rejoice, send your young men and women to bomb inocent children, you will eventually run out of people or be destroyed. Look at how you treated France, after they kissed your ass, you people sure are smart. I'll bet France is just waiting to help you again.

All Arabs are bigots, racist, homophobes, psychotic and need to be killed. Anyone who disagrees, just remember this is exactly what they say about everyone else in the world. Fuck'em
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

HELL YEAH!

All Arabs are bigots, racist, homophobes, psychotic and need to be killed. Anyone who disagrees, just remember this is exactly what they say about everyone else in the world. Fuck'em
That's inappropriate. Consider yourself warned for flaming.

Why should they wake up, most of the world does not hold them accountable for anything. They are like prehistoric apes, roaming from country to country with their knuckle dragging antics, and bombs. Muslims and Islam itself shall be removed from the face of the earth, and all of those that pity them shall die with them.

Muslim women, rejoice, send your young men and women to bomb inocent children, you will eventually run out of people or be destroyed. Look at how you treated France, after they kissed your ass, you people sure are smart. I'll bet France is just waiting to help you again.

All Arabs are bigots, racist, homophobes, psychotic and need to be killed. Anyone who disagrees, just remember this is exactly what they say about everyone else in the world. Fuck'em
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:

I'm a caucasian muslim.

Thanks for the offer to have me strap a bomb on myself and run into "inocent" children to kill myself, while I keep being a bigot, a racist, a homophobe, AND a psychotic. Oh, forgot about the part where I needed to die? Aye.

It's funny how every single person in here trying to blame muslims are unable to use simple grammar and correct spelling, yet apparently they have more knowledge on Islam and have read the Quran, because God forbid that a muslim should actually like, read the book of his religion. Oh right, all Muslims are dumbasses who can't read and try to kill "inocent" children. Whoopsie, my bad.

Maybe instead of throwing blind stereotypes, you should try getting some real information about your points?

I'm a caucasian muslim.

Thanks for the offer to have me strap a bomb on myself and run into "inocent" children to kill myself, while I keep being a bigot, a racist, a homophobe, AND a psychotic. Oh, forgot about the part where I needed to die? Aye.

It's funny how every single person in here trying to blame muslims are unable to use simple grammar and correct spelling, yet apparently they have more knowledge on Islam and have read the Quran, because God forbid that a muslim should actually like, read the book of his religion. Oh right, all Muslims are dumbasses who can't read and try to kill "inocent" children. Whoopsie, my bad.

Maybe instead of throwing blind stereotypes, you should try getting some real information about your points?


Though it is true the vast majority of muslims are not terrorists, it is also true that the vast majority of terrorists ARE muslims.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/signs.php?sign=10