NationStates Jolt Archive

Something I would like to know, before I have listed all of the verses in the Bible dealing with Jesus's command to love thy neighbor as thyself, and all of the verses dealing with Love. As well as using the example of Jesus saying if "Thou have not sinned, cast the first stone" when saving the prostitute.

May I please ask why so-called "Christians" will often flat-out ignore the abuse, verbal or physical, of homosexuals? There are teenagers committing suicide, or feeling isolated because they cannot come out at their schools. They are afraid. It is because the atmosphere is one where people will not stop this abuse, among myriad other abuses they will not stop at some schools and communites.

Even if it is the personal belief of a Christian to condemn /homosexuality/ as an act, I would hope that the Christian preacher or other who preaches on this topic should realize and make clear that this is NOT an endorsement of predjudice, to mistreat or abuse a person.

I see many preachers in my area preaching on sin, but not Love? Perhaps this is a source of the error, when the Bible itself, the Holy Book of Christianity, holds love to be the "highest commandment" yet it is not equally preached along with the details of what should be "personal behavior".

I find fault with the /institutions/ of Christianity, rather than the teachings of Christ themself, for inappropriately dealing with these issues. While there are many other factors contributing to the issues facing society today, the major Christian institutions do NOT appear to be helping the situation as they should. I feel, as the major Christian denomination's views have major affect on society, and the Christian institutions that effectively "distribute" the teachings of Christianity, that it is the responsibility of Christianity to impart the message of Love thy neighbor as thyself. I have heard, as it does not happen so much in my area, of the myriad abuses that occur in schools and are ignored by teachers. Of the many other abuses that occur in communities. Child Abuse, Domestic Abuse, all forms of Abuses.

Of course there is human error, but truly, the leading figures in Christianity who appear on TV or have major influence should NOT be indirectly endorsing violence or predjudice.

Is it not the role of the Christian institutions in spreading Christ's message to its members to include Love, and not condemnation?

I say this because Christianity is supposedly supposed to be the guidance of culture in the United States, but all I see is abuse everywhere. There ARE People trying to help the situation, and I thank them. There ARE specialized Christian groups, among other religions trying to help those who have been through many forms of abuse. But I do NOT see the major Christian institutions that NEED to help emphasizing as much as they should the basic respect of another human being. There seems to be quiet a bit of apathy in our society, and if the United States is supposedly a "Christian" nation then this does not speak well of Christianity.

I find it ironic that Christians want to claim the United States as "under God" and "Their country" while at the same time condemning the moral state of the United States, and how everything is going down.

Obviously, someone is not doing their job.

I would also like to note it can also be cultural, such as our cultural views of masculinity which has been cited by sociologists and psychologists as one reason abuse may be so rampant in our society.

I must say I agree with ya. My parents are both pastors and although I have no problems with Christ's teachings, I DO have a problem with Christians thinking they have the right and the knowledge to rule the world and dictate your life. It's sick. They know they have power and want to use it to their utmost advantage.

Homosexuals are NOT evil. They need our support and our friendship. They do not need to be told they are scum or that they can change.

Have you heard of the Christian ex-gay places? You can hear horror stories of them all over the internet.

In all, Christianity is now just a power thing. It stopped being about Jesus a long time ago for most.

There are Christian groups that DO support gays, such as the United Church of Christ, the Lutheran Church, and the American Baptist Denomination.

The ones that are bad to them are The Southern Baptist Convention, United Methodist Church, and Pentacostal churches mostly.

i cant help but agree with you, aerion

the commands of jesus are very hard to follow, its much easier to get distracted by condemning the sins of others or the minutae of christian practice

if you just go through the gospels and concentrate on the words of jesus, you find a very challenging faith to follow. its all about love and acceptance and realizing that its not US and THEM. its all US.

this filthy piece of scum <whatever> is my brother and if i dont treat him the same way i would treat jesus himself, im in trouble.

if i pay more attention to my "stuff" than to my immortal soul, im not making the grade.

if im going to "stone" someone for their sins, i better be perfect myself.

The "compassionate Christian conservatives" are hypocrites. They run around claiming Christ is their Savior and do nothing but preach out of the Bible, yet the run around condemning everyone and everything.

If you truly do believe in the Bible, shouldn't you be practicing what Jesus preaches?

For example, there are many times in the Gospels that Jesus says "Love thy neighbor as thyself," yet these "christian conservatives" hate everyone and everything that doesn't belive in their crap. Look at Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly as examples to this.

Also, Jesus speaks many times about helping the poor and the less fortunate, yet "christian conservatives" do the opposite and CUT money from the poor and give tax breaks to the rich. That's not helping those who are less fortunate, now, is it?

Also, Jesus says something along the lines of "don't judge others lest ye be judged," yet "christian conservatives" run around and judge homosexuals and saying what they're doing is wrong. I've got advice for these "christian conservatives"--go look in a mirror before you pass judgement.

I'm done with the rant. :headbang:

I must say I agree with ya. My parents are both pastors and although I have no problems with Christ's teachings, I DO have a problem with Christians thinking they have the right and the knowledge to rule the world and dictate your life. It's sick. They know they have power and want to use it to their utmost advantage.

Homosexuals are NOT evil. They need our support and our friendship. They do not need to be told they are scum or that they can change.

Have you heard of the Christian ex-gay places? You can hear horror stories of them all over the internet.

In all, Christianity is now just a power thing. It stopped being about Jesus a long time ago for most.

There are Christian groups that DO support gays, such as the United Church of Christ, the Lutheran Church, and the American Baptist Denomination.

The ones that are bad to them are The Southern Baptist Convention, United Methodist Church, and Pentacostal churches mostly.


I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a Christian and I am perfectly happy with homosexuals being, well, homosexuals. I have NEVER seen anything in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.

If the Republicans were truly Christian, then they would quit judging others.

If the Republicans were truly Christian, then they would quit judging others.


I agree with you full heartedly. The Repubs. should be more like Libertarians.

While I am an "athiest" (since this is easier than explaining my beliefs), I however do believe that Jesus Christ did have a few good ideas. I do not agree with religion, but I agree his teachings, such as "love thy neigh", "judge not lest ye be judge", "let he without sin cast the first stone"... Because they aren't religious, but rather ways that we can improve ourselves spiritually. By following principles that help others as well as yourself, you build a stronger spirit. It doesn't matter what path you take in life, as long as you are kind to those who are kind and reach out to those who are alone...

So, this is why I hate Christianity because they say this, but there is so much hypocracy I can't stomach it and take a firm stand against the institution. They tell you to do all this, but then there is so much intolerance on the part of the preachers and the fundamentalists....and basically anyone who believes that the church is right, even when intolerance runs at a dime a dozen...

Hmmm, how long before the extremist christians arrive? Lol.

I disagree with homosexuallity, it has nothing to do with religion. However, I don't go out of my way to abuse homosexuals. Unless one started hitting on me, in which case, I would beat the sh*** out of him, but that would be an extreme circumstance. :p

This topic is one of the main causes for the big splits which are occurring between churches at the moment so there's obviously strong feelings on both sides, personally I don't feel that there is any justification for ill-feelings toward homosexuals but do not believe that the marriage of a gay couple should be sanctioned in a church.

Hmmm, how long before the extremist christians arrive? Lol.

I disagree with homosexuallity, it has nothing to do with religion. However, I don't go out of my way to abuse homosexuals. Unless one started hitting on me, in which case, I would beat the sh*** out of him, but that would be an extreme circumstance. :p

Hey there, sexy baby. How about you and me, dinner and a movie?



But seriously, when you compare the teachings of Christ to the idealogy of conservative christians, I can't help but notice some glaring inconsistancies.

Yes the problems in christianity grow out of the conservative nature it has taken on. Since Christ was in fact a radical this immediately puts them at odds.

If anyone wants proof just how radical he was consdier the ways he disregarded the laws of judaism, however he always justified it by helping people. He accepted all people for who they wanted to be and challenged religion and authority on the basis that it was unjust.

This is all based on the scriptures we have of Jesus' life and even if they aren't 'true' (as some claim) they provide an excellant example for us all to live by and aspire to.

This will always be true and will always be applicable. Whether it be sexuality, religion, race, disability or any other basis of discrimination, true christians all around the world must speak out against any form of discrimination in accordance with the churches teachings.

Jesus was not concerned with evangelising people, he was concerned with helping them and accepting them and promoting these ideals.

While I am an "athiest" (since this is easier than explaining my beliefs), I however do believe that Jesus Christ did have a few good ideas. I do not agree with religion, but I agree his teachings, such as "love thy neigh", "judge not lest ye be judge", "let he without sin cast the first stone"... Because they aren't religious, but rather ways that we can improve ourselves spiritually. By following principles that help others as well as yourself, you build a stronger spirit. It doesn't matter what path you take in life, as long as you are kind to those who are kind and reach out to those who are alone...

So, this is why I hate Christianity because they say this, but there is so much hypocracy I can't stomach it and take a firm stand against the institution. They tell you to do all this, but then there is so much intolerance on the part of the preachers and the fundamentalists....and basically anyone who believes that the church is right, even when intolerance runs at a dime a dozen...


I really need to meet you. Maybe my church can help change your opinion. We aren't all hypocrites, just most of us. :( Those poor, misguided souls that think they are going to heaven, but will be plunged straight into hell. Oh well, it makes me more comfortable to be in heaven with the Christians that actually acted like christ.

This is something that's been bugging me, too, as a Christian--the misuse of religion for bigotry.

I am quite sad that the majority (I think) have behaved in such a way that Christians are automatically stereotyped as bigots, haters of homosexuals, and condoners of violence and abuse against them. I do not recall EVER being called to hate any group of people in this way. I recall being called to REFRAIN from judgment, and to show kindness.

And flame me if you want, but I cannot even go so far as to call homosexuality a sin. First off, the Old Testament was overruled, and secondly, the NT references to homosexuality were by Paul, someone writing in a time when he quite simply would have had no understanding of the matter--and thirdly, I see homosexuality as biological. To condemn a homosexual simply for being what he/she is would be as if someone condemned me because I was born female, making a claim that because Eve partook first of the apple that I am somehow more of a sinner than anybody else. I did not choose to be born female, and I did not choose to be heterosexual--just the same, I do not believe homosexuals made any conscious choice to have that nature. Why would I condemn them?

I would die if I had to, to stop an act of violence against a homosexual.

That is the depth of what I feel about this. I have spoken with people many times to defend their rights as well. Put simply, there is simply no excuse for the condemnation of homosexuals.

Some christians just don't know that some of the laws put on people were due to culture back then. The whole gays are bad thing is just because people in other religions worshipped phallic symbols and judaism was supposed to be different.

Some christians just don't know that some of the laws put on people were due to culture back then. The whole gays are bad thing is just because people in other religions worshipped phallic symbols and judaism was supposed to be different.

Along similar veins I heard that the law may also have been in place to stop promiscuity, not homosexuality per se. Anyone heard this theory?

I've heard that too.

I've heard that too.

Any validity to it? I had an English professor awhile back who offered a compelling argument, but I've never looked further into it myself.

The point is that the bible offers no reason why homosexuality wasn't tolerated. We must look to other sources to see why. No matter what Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson or George W. says, we need to be accepting of it. It isn't going to go away, and why should it? Just because some guys in the bible started following Greek religion they stone them? Why should we do what the old testement says?!?! They tell you to stone your kids for some things. I can't wait for the churches to start doing that so that I can kick their butts.

Something I would like to know, before I have listed all of the verses in the Bible dealing with Jesus's command to love thy neighbor as thyself, and all of the verses dealing with Love. As well as using the example of Jesus saying if "Thou have not sinned, cast the first stone" when saving the prostitute.

May I please ask why so-called "Christians" will often flat-out ignore the abuse, verbal or physical, of homosexuals? There are teenagers committing suicide, or feeling isolated because they cannot come out at their schools. They are afraid. It is because the atmosphere is one where people will not stop this abuse, among myriad other abuses they will not stop at some schools and communites.

Even if it is the personal belief of a Christian to condemn /homosexuality/ as an act, I would hope that the Christian preacher or other who preaches on this topic should realize and make clear that this is NOT an endorsement of predjudice, to mistreat or abuse a person.

I see many preachers in my area preaching on sin, but not Love? Perhaps this is a source of the error, when the Bible itself, the Holy Book of Christianity, holds love to be the "highest commandment" yet it is not equally preached along with the details of what should be "personal behavior".

I find fault with the /institutions/ of Christianity, rather than the teachings of Christ themself, for inappropriately dealing with these issues. While there are many other factors contributing to the issues facing society today, the major Christian institutions do NOT appear to be helping the situation as they should. I feel, as the major Christian denomination's views have major affect on society, and the Christian institutions that effectively "distribute" the teachings of Christianity, that it is the responsibility of Christianity to impart the message of Love thy neighbor as thyself. I have heard, as it does not happen so much in my area, of the myriad abuses that occur in schools and are ignored by teachers. Of the many other abuses that occur in communities. Child Abuse, Domestic Abuse, all forms of Abuses.

Of course there is human error, but truly, the leading figures in Christianity who appear on TV or have major influence should NOT be indirectly endorsing violence or predjudice.

Is it not the role of the Christian institutions in spreading Christ's message to its members to include Love, and not condemnation?

I say this because Christianity is supposedly supposed to be the guidance of culture in the United States, but all I see is abuse everywhere. There ARE People trying to help the situation, and I thank them. There ARE specialized Christian groups, among other religions trying to help those who have been through many forms of abuse. But I do NOT see the major Christian institutions that NEED to help emphasizing as much as they should the basic respect of another human being. There seems to be quiet a bit of apathy in our society, and if the United States is supposedly a "Christian" nation then this does not speak well of Christianity.

I find it ironic that Christians want to claim the United States as "under God" and "Their country" while at the same time condemning the moral state of the United States, and how everything is going down.

Obviously, someone is not doing their job.
This is sadly true. It gives Christians a bad name.

But, don't act like Christians are the only ones doing it, nor are gays the only people it's being done to.

This is sadly true. It gives Christians a bad name.

But, don't act like Christians are the only ones doing it, nor are gays the only people it's being done to.

You are so right.

Hey!! You're from VA too!!!

Any validity to it? I had an English professor awhile back who offered a compelling argument, but I've never looked further into it myself.

Primarily because the quotation in Romans doesn't talk about the same kind of homosexual behavior that we talk about when we refer to homosexual behavior. In those days, anal intercourse between males was widely practiced, but only in the course of a master making use of his slave. The Romans typically just thought of it as stress relief and use of property on the part of the master (although they would have seen it as a serious loss of face had a master been seen on the receiving end of anal intercourse). The modern notion of homosexuality, where two people mutually exchange sexual favors for the purposes of happiness, would be one that was completely foreign to the Roman church that Paul was writing to.

That being said, such a relationship would not have been completely foreign to other Christian populations in the Hellenistic world, such as the church in Corinth or Ephesos (Greeks have a fairly long tradition of mutally-affectionate homosexual relationships, going all the way back to Homeric myths and beyond). Oddly enough, Paul never specifically condemned homosexuality in letters written to those congregations. What he did do, fairly consistently, was to critisize sexual immorality in general. As I recall, he had a pretty dim view of sexual behavior altogether (this is primarily because he envisioned Christ returning for the Final Judgment before he died. No sense getting sidetracked on the marathon to God in the final leg, is there?), but he did encourage marriage for those who weren't quite willing to go to the extreme of celibacy as he was.

On the whole, I think that makes a pretty good case for what Paul was really talking about, and outright and complete rejection of homosexuality was not it. Rather, he condemned the use of sex outside of the context of love. Given his strongly Hellenistic viewpoint, and the fact that many Greek philosophers (such as Socrates in the Phaedrus) made similar points, this should not be so surprising. What he was condemning in Romans wasn't women giving it up to women or men giving it up to men, it was women and men engaging in sexual activity without the concurrent emotional attachment that should go with it.

ooc: The homosexuality discussion was already carried out in another thread which I explained all the sources of why the fundmanetalist Christians have misintrepreted those five "verses" that supposedly condemn homosexuality. This thread is specifically to point out that the institutions perporting to be Christians have not acted very...Christian.

Any one else have any commentary?

Primarily because the quotation in Romans doesn't talk about the same kind of homosexual behavior that we talk about when we refer to homosexual behavior. In those days, anal intercourse between males was widely practiced, but only in the course of a master making use of his slave. The Romans typically just thought of it as stress relief and use of property on the part of the master (although they would have seen it as a serious loss of face had a master been seen on the receiving end of anal intercourse). The modern notion of homosexuality, where two people mutually exchange sexual favors for the purposes of happiness, would be one that was completely foreign to the Roman church that Paul was writing to.

That being said, such a relationship would not have been completely foreign to other Christian populations in the Hellenistic world, such as the church in Corinth or Ephesos (Greeks have a fairly long tradition of mutally-affectionate homosexual relationships, going all the way back to Homeric myths and beyond). Oddly enough, Paul never specifically condemned homosexuality in letters written to those congregations. What he did do, fairly consistently, was to critisize sexual immorality in general. As I recall, he had a pretty dim view of sexual behavior altogether (this is primarily because he envisioned Christ returning for the Final Judgment before he died. No sense getting sidetracked on the marathon to God in the final leg, is there?), but he did encourage marriage for those who weren't quite willing to go to the extreme of celibacy as he was.

On the whole, I think that makes a pretty good case for what Paul was really talking about, and outright and complete rejection of homosexuality was not it. Rather, he condemned the use of sex outside of the context of love. Given his strongly Hellenistic viewpoint, and the fact that many Greek philosophers (such as Socrates in the Phaedrus) made similar points, this should not be so surprising. What he was condemning in Romans wasn't women giving it up to women or men giving it up to men, it was women and men engaging in sexual activity without the concurrent emotional attachment that should go with it.



Leviticus 18
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

I think that being gay is wrong, but no more wrong than any sin that I've commited, nor any sin that anyone else has commited.

moral codes are great, just so long as people dont try and pretend that theirs are better in any way form or fashion than anyone elses. Unfortunately a lot of Christians have a tendency to assume that somehow, their version of what is right is better than other versions.

While I am an "athiest" (since this is easier than explaining my beliefs), I however do believe that Jesus Christ did have a few good ideas. I do not agree with religion, but I agree his teachings, such as "love thy neigh", "judge not lest ye be judge", "let he without sin cast the first stone"... Because they aren't religious, but rather ways that we can improve ourselves spiritually. By following principles that help others as well as yourself, you build a stronger spirit. It doesn't matter what path you take in life, as long as you are kind to those who are kind and reach out to those who are alone...

So, this is why I hate Christianity because they say this, but there is so much hypocracy I can't stomach it and take a firm stand against the institution. They tell you to do all this, but then there is so much intolerance on the part of the preachers and the fundamentalists....and basically anyone who believes that the church is right, even when intolerance runs at a dime a dozen...

First, "teachings"? What about the crucifixion? The empty tomb? That's the BIG teaching.

Tolerance of sin? No. We should not tolerate sin. This is the reason why homosexuality is a hard issue. Homosexuality is condemned throughout the Bible as a sin. Don't play semantic games about culture- you know as well as I do what is meant. The problem comes when homosexuals persist in sin- they refuse to repent. And that should not be tolerated. This even Jesus would agree with.

The "compassionate Christian conservatives" are hypocrites. They run around claiming Christ is their Savior and do nothing but preach out of the Bible, yet the run around condemning everyone and everything.

If you truly do believe in the Bible, shouldn't you be practicing what Jesus preaches?

For example, there are many times in the Gospels that Jesus says "Love thy neighbor as thyself," yet these "christian conservatives" hate everyone and everything that doesn't belive in their crap. Look at Rush Limbaugh or Bill O'Reilly as examples to this.

Also, Jesus speaks many times about helping the poor and the less fortunate, yet "christian conservatives" do the opposite and CUT money from the poor and give tax breaks to the rich. That's not helping those who are less fortunate, now, is it?

Also, Jesus says something along the lines of "don't judge others lest ye be judged," yet "christian conservatives" run around and judge homosexuals and saying what they're doing is wrong. I've got advice for these "christian conservatives"--go look in a mirror before you pass judgement.

I'm done with the rant. :headbang:

Yeah Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh, who get paid to voice contorversial/emotion inducing opinons are great examples.

And its not judging to simply state that you think homosexuality is a sin. Which according to their book of law (the Bible) it is. Judgment implies passing a sentence for a supposed "crime." Christian aren't judging they are just siting what is a sin according to their relgion. Judgement belongs to God (if you believe in him), opinons still belong to everyone. If someone thinks its wrong then its their right to say so. Thats the way it works. I think rasicism is a sin, should I not be able to say so because it will offend rasicsts or may be percieved as passing judgment on them?

And the government has always given tax breaks to the rich. Democrats and Republican have all promised not to do this but, until interest-groups are banned from giving money to them (which will never happen) you will continue to get tax breaks. And here's a little insight. Rich people get tax breaks because they take the time to do certain things that will get them tax breaks. Of course, poor people could do this but, they have to worry about feeding they're families so they just worry about paying their percentage. Everyone pays a percentage, the same percentage, in reality the rich, even after the supposed "tax breaks" still pay more annually then anyone else.

just because some may hate gays (kkk) doesnt mean all christians do my entire church is based on outreach it may not like the way gays live or about gay marriage but it accepts them and does not hate them i have two cousins who are gay their great people just because i do not like the way they live does not mean i hate them

First, "teachings"? What about the crucifixion? The empty tomb? That's the BIG teaching.

Tolerance of sin? No. We should not tolerate sin. This is the reason why homosexuality is a hard issue. Homosexuality is condemned throughout the Bible as a sin. Don't play semantic games about culture- you know as well as I do what is meant. The problem comes when homosexuals persist in sin- they refuse to repent. And that should not be tolerated. This even Jesus would agree with.

Then you can go make your OWN damn country, persecute away, and in a few years we'll attack you under the guise of WMDs then pretend we were just killing off a horrible dictator.