NationStates Jolt Archive

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid? Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.

For anyone else, along with atheists, what's so wrong about Christianity?

Oh, and if you can, provide specific examples...

Personally, I don't have a problem with religion... but I will point out that religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith, and therefore could be called "illogical".

And some people (not me, but some people) might think it's a bit "stupid" to blindly follow a book that was written in several different parts, a few thousand years ago, with no proof that any of it actually happened, especially when bits of it contradict each other.

For me personally, as I strong day-to-day with my faith - and at one point, did consider myself an atheist - I can say that my feelings towards religion itself had nothing to do with my decision to not believe in God.

Instead, my personal feelings, thoughts, and conclusions from ventures with my exploration into Christian doctrine, the Bible, and just my relationship with my Lord all drew me further from him.

It's hard to exactly explain, truthfully.

Personally, I don't have a problem with religion... but I will point out that religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith, and therefore could be called "illogical".

And some people (not me, but some people) might think it's a bit "stupid" to blindly follow a book that was written in several different parts, a few thousand years ago, with no proof that any of it actually happened, especially when bits of it contradict each other.
But, atheism is based on faith, too, so what makes it "logical" while religion isn't?
And I would never expect someone to follow any religion blindly. I certainly don't. I question the Bible, I question God, but when it's all said and done, I can see that it is, in fact, logical...that's me though...i want to know why atheists don't do that.

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid?
I am athiest , but I'm not an athiest because I think all religon is "illogical or stupid" I just dont believe in God//goddess//Ganesh w/e . Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, People who have had bad experiences with religon have had bad experiences with *other people*, this doesnt have anything to do with athiesm , which is the belief that there is no God. but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What about them? Although someone saying that "religon is gay" is rather petty and small minded - it doesnt mean they are athiest- it just means they are , well, er, rather petty and small minded
What is it about religion that you hate so much?
See my above point, Im not sure what someone "hating" a//all religon has to do with being an athiest. After all Im not an athiest because I hate god, Im an athiest because I dont think God exists. And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.
Cant really respond to this question since I dont "hate religon" nor would I label something that I did hate as "gay"

But, atheism is based on faith, too, so what makes it "logical" while religion isn't?
And I would never expect someone to follow any religion blindly. I certainly don't. I question the Bible, I question God, but when it's all said and done, I can see that it is, in fact, logical...that's me though...i want to know why atheists don't do that.
It's a trap, get an axe.

Fighting the urge to make the response to this particular misconception/redirection....which is hard......

Let's don't. The athiests will come in here, be everything from calm to vicious and ten pages after an athiest or two has started whole other threads that start with their arguments some wounded christian will start one that's all "Why won't athiests leave us alone...." So lets just do that now, just leave them alone now-it's the same arguments, you know they've seen it-and I don't want to look at more christians whining that they're being picked on.

I know I could just not click on the threads....but still. What if we didn't do the merry go round this time? You have the power!

It's a trap, get an axe.

Fighting the urge to make the response to this particular misconception/redirection....which is hard......

Let's don't. The athiests will come in here, be everything from calm to vicious and ten pages after an athiest or two has started whole other threads that start with their arguments some wounded christian will start one that's all "Why won't athiests leave us alone...." So lets just do that now, just leave them alone now-it's the same arguments, you know they've seen it-and I don't want to look at more christians whining that they're being picked on.

I know I could just not click on the threads....but still. What if we didn't do the merry go round this time? You have the power!
Ah its all in fun, grab a seat get some popcorn and enjoy the show;)

Ah its all in fun, grab a seat get some popcorn and enjoy the show;)
I know, but I reserve the right to scream "I told you so" when the "Why do atheists pick on christians" thread starts....



EDIT:in retrospect it could be argued that this is already one of those, so my point is kind of moot.....

woops. oh well. But there will be the wounded one later, not the just 'question' one, so I'm not all wrong...

I know, but I reserve the right to scream "I told you so" when the "Why do atheists pick on christians" thread starts....
As long as I get to scream "Wont somebody please think of the children" you got yourself a deal. :D

But, atheism is based on faith, too, so what makes it "logical" while religion isn't?
And I would never expect someone to follow any religion blindly. I certainly don't. I question the Bible, I question God, but when it's all said and done, I can see that it is, in fact, logical...that's me though...i want to know why atheists don't do that.
I'm actually an agnostic, so I have questioned the Bible, and looked at the arguments for and against God existing, and concluded that I cannot possibly hope to ever discover the answer.

However, an atheist would probably argue that it is NOT logical for God to exist (e.g. the Suffering Problem), whereas you would argue that it is not logical for God to NOT exist (e.g. Paley's Watch Argument). Therefore neither of you would be able to come to an understanding of each other, because that would require letting go of your own beliefs in order to see things from the other person's point of view, just for a second.

What's so great about logic? If you ask me, too much logic takes the fun out of life. I just don't see what's so great about viewing myself as an aggregate of reacting macromolecules operating according to perfectly rational mathematical laws of physics. It seems like a very dehumanizing world view to me.

I haven't any problem with religion. I just don't subscribe to it myself. The only time I'm annoyed with it is when someone tries to shove it down my throat or when they tell me I'm going to burn in hell for not being Christian, or Jewish, or whatever.

Religion is based on faith, I'll never try to take that faith away from other people, just don't try to take my beliefs away from me. There are no problems that way.

I guess I used to be a "atheist". I really didn't like how people would attribute everything Good in the world to God, and everything bad to Humans.

It seemed stupid to me, and hypocritical to me. My philosphy was that we're responsible for the good, and we're responsible for the bad, God has nothing to do with what happens to us. (I still largely feel this way)


Then I also thought how in History religion has been used to hurt people.



But then I actually read the Bible, and realized I was stupid. I'm not a converted Christian, I still don't fully believe all of it. But I accept it, and understand it more. I respect Christians, and think they are good people.

As for History, You can't hold Christianity responsible for the acts of people who used the Bible wrongly. They're not true Christians.


And then I looked in the past 100 years. All the great tragedies. And you know what? They were all by people who opposed religion. (Fascists, Communists, etc)

Then I looked at all the GOOD things people had done, and they were largely motivated by their religion. Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, etc..



I realized that religion isn't the problem. It's people who think they know everything about everything. Atheists, and Theists alike. As a Christian you can never know everything there is to know about Christianity and your religion. And as an atheist you can't claim that you know EVERYTHING and that Religion is just stupid and for the weak.


We're all people, and we can only know so much.

I'm somewhere in the agnostic/atheiest spectrum. Why? Because nowhere can I find proof of a supreme being. Yes, there are marvelous and miraculous things that happen, but the laws of probability state that that because of the sample size, improbable/fantastic things are bound to happen every day.

But I keep an open mind. Do not confuse disbelief with hate. I, as a good rational being, do believe that there are things out there that our current knowledge can't explain. Do I feel that there's a greater purpose to existence than mere existance? Yes, yes I do, but I keep my mind open as to what that purpose may be. Why? Because the dangers of blind belief draw a bloody line across the pages of history.

Organized religion bothers me most. It too often leads to divisiveness (the people's fault, not usually the religion's,) bloodshed and irrational hate. That is not to say that organized religion is not responsible for good things as well, I would be wrong to think so.

Basically, I distrust anything that causes people to think in a uniform way that is not backed up by good, solid proof. I also believe that the personal pursuit of enlightenment is one of the most beautiful goals of all.

So be religious, be athiest, and share your ideas freely, without predjudice. If we are all open to learning about the human experience from everyone, no matter what their race, creed, culture or whatever makes them different, then we come that much closer to understanding what it is to be human.

For anyone else, along with atheists, what's so wrong about Christianity?

Oh, and if you can, provide specific examples...

The main problem I have with christianity is the amount of contradictions, and the serverity of them. My main example would be:

According to the Bible:

God is all powerful
God is all forgiving
God is all good

so what happened to the third world? Did God forget about them?


See my point?

honestly?

i find the fact that its not "true" to be a stumbling block in my faith

much of what jesus had to say seems very good to me. i try to live by most of it.

there are thousands of religions in the world, they contradict each other in the facts of the universe. why believe this one over the other? why do these others even exist? i find no more reason to believe in the christian story than i do to believe in the hindu story. they cant both be true, but they can both be false.

without any reason to believe in one over the others, i find i believe in NONE and that there is in fact not much likelihood that any of them is true.

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid? Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.


Its telling the children lies you cant proove are true - MISTRUST in your kids allready ..

It hascaused so many wars its unbeleivable if people would parent right and not rely on fantasy LOL maybe it would work untill then expect more blood covered TV every morning

I am Atheist, but I have no quarrels with religion...well thats a lie, I don't disagree with religion itself but I disagree with its side effects, e.g war, death ect. ect. These are brought on by Fanatics though.

This is my little equation.

Religion + Religion = War

Religion + Atheist = War

Atheist + Atheist = War anyway cos the world the is screwed


Thats my 2 Pence (not cents ye bastards!) and I think it is extremely poor but also pointless, I am the master of useless writings.

Ooh, what fun.

Neanderthals came up with religion I think about 50,000 years ago. Why do you think this was? Did God speak to them, or did they not understand why sometimes it is light and sometimes dark, etc? So people went with it. It's been around so long, now that science can explain so many things people still think it's all because of their god and remain ignorant.

I realize that we can't tell for sure yet how the world began and what else is out there, etc, but I'm more prone to believe evolution than a theory saying some bloke in the sky (quite possibly with a beard) just set down to people and told them to hump like rabbits.

I would also like to say that although most of the Christians i know are complete brainwashed hypocrites, I realize not all are like this. Just the majority.

I think organized religion is absolute crap, but somewhat inevitable. I wish people could think for themselves, take all the theories and think up some of their own to form their own belief system, and accept it when people don't quite agree with them. but people are bound to agree somewhere, and they'd like that and want more friends to understand them, and go crusading and such. Damnit, we should just find the definite answers.

I range from agnostic to atheist.

Theist: One who confirms the existance of a higher being.

Atheist: One who denies the existance of a higher being. (IE: God Allmighty)

Agnostic: One who neither confirms nor denies aforementioned entity.

Me: One who, quite frankly, could not care less about the topic in question.

Tea anyone?

I think the better question is, what is right with religion? You all can blindly waste your lives following something that will never be.Atheism is the best. That is my opinion so live with it...... :sniper:

What's so great about logic? If you ask me, too much logic takes the fun out of life. I just don't see what's so great about viewing myself as an aggregate of reacting macromolecules operating according to perfectly rational mathematical laws of physics. It seems like a very dehumanizing world view to me.

No more dehumanizing than the idea that humans are all inherently evil and therefore must pledge their undying love and trust in an invisible force who loves us, although It still has the power to torture us for all of eternity if we don't. Or the idea that we can't figure out on our own how to be good people or live correctly so we need, yet again, an invisible patriarch to tell us. Or the idea that this being also has a "plan" for us, because we, as previously stated, can't tell our own heads from our asses so we need an invisible all-knowing patriarch to run our lives for us. Yet we still (supposedly) have free will. But if the previous is true, that God has a plan for us, one or the other has to be moot. Someone is lying. Either God has no plan, or free will is an illusion, and we are just puppets.

This, I think, is more anti-hiuman than logic. Mind you, about a year ago, I would have completely agreed with your statement. But, supposing you eliminate God, I think (this is pure opinion, I'm not converting anyone here), it's more humanistic to believe that, since death is permanent, and we are alone in the universe, we are therefore more empowered because all we have is each other. And we should appreciate the time we do have all the more because of that.


But, atheism is based on faith, too, so what makes it "logical" while religion isn't?

I don't understand how atheism is based on faith of any kind, other than faith in the human race. Is that what you meant?

I consider myself a Stong Athieist...I can't really see why should I bealive in "god" or any superior being..
Religion came cuz humans could not explain natural fenomena (eg. rain, thunder, blah blah blah) so they thought that someone, or something, did that...all religions are based on this superior guy who controls everything, but no, physics do...you don't need a "god" (whatever it might be..) to make the Universe work..
And I do understand people who claim religion as illogical..not that I agree though, some people who are somewhat mentally weaker or fragile (hey, this does not mean dumb..just unstable) need to belive in something to give them some hope, and it does work cuz they belive it so strongly..the human brain is such a powerful "machine"..
So, I'm an atheist not because I thing "god" is ugly or whatever, but because there was not a single thing that proved that he (or them) exist.
Also, following the Bible, the Quran or whatever, litterally is not the smartest thing to do...I mean, how could a couple of guys actually know things about the afterlife, the will of "god" and all that if they never spoke to him? It's just what they think it was right (not that I don't agree with it) and so they supposed that "god" thought (I know..god does not think..it has no brain so it's physically impossible) that too, because it was good and it condemned evil.
I'm not against religion, I think people are free to belive whatever they want, no matter if it based on facts, physics or not, but I don't think a supreme being exists..if men did not create religion some thousand years ago because they did not understand the world, if they tried to study it (yeah, I know...people from 7000 b.C did not even know what "study" was) instead of getting a easy anwser to those problems, Christianity, Judaism and all other religions, and even the concept of religion, would be totally unknown to us.
Now, if you ask me if I think religion has an important role on our society, and if it can help...yes, it can. No religion inspires hatered, they try to make men live peacefully with each other, sad that some people currupted "holy" scripts to make people kill in order to make others belive what they think it's right..

I DO beleve there is a god, and a spirit world. I just don't beleve any of the descriptions of those two things that the various religions give. Every one of them must have part of 'the truth', but none of them is entirely true, or more true than the next.
I also beleve, that everyone should (be allowed to) find their own way to spirituality, by joining a religion, or by combining them, by founding a new one, or by finding out what it means to be atheist. (see also my last paragraph) So read my text, and take it with you as baggage.

Maybe, if I can one day find the patience to do so, I will try to find out what the truth is, by listening to what people feel and write about it TODAY.
You see, The Bible is written in a diffrent time. The stories were not meant for our sientific minds. They were written for the people of 1000+ years ago, who were mutch more suceptible for images and metaphores.

About the 3rd World: Maybe those people are bringing us a sacrefice. They try to teach us (or humanity) compashion, by showing what it means to suffer. Especially when you beleve in reincarnation this makes sense. Becouse, by living a life in a 3rd world couthry, they learn what it is to suffer shemselves too. It sort of (SORT OF!!) gives a meaning to what is hapening in the world (like the terrorism).
Then with every life you live on earth, you have a chance to make the world a little better. If it is just by raising your children with the right mentality.

No more dehumanizing than the idea that humans are all inherently evil and therefore must pledge their undying love and trust in an invisible force who loves us, although It still has the power to torture us for all of eternity if we don't. Or the idea that we can't figure out on our own how to be good people or live correctly so we need, yet again, an invisible patriarch to tell us. Or the idea that this being also has a "plan" for us, because we, as previously stated, can't tell our own heads from our asses so we need an invisible all-knowing patriarch to run our lives for us. Yet we still (supposedly) have free will. But if the previous is true, that God has a plan for us, one or the other has to be moot. Someone is lying. Either God has no plan, or free will is an illusion, and we are just puppets.

I don't believe in any god or the idea that humans are inherently bad, so that objection doesn't apply to me at all. Materialism also lacks free will, since it views us as simply atoms operating according to laws of physics.

I'm atheist. I grew up christian but eventually started thinking for myself and came to the conclusion that I was lied to my entire life (even if the liees didn't realize it). Therefore, I'm now a little bitter about the entire thing and I want to spread the truth.

I'll give two reasons, to start off:

1) Evolution: It's a fact that evolution has taken place. It has been observed in nature and in the lab. There's tons of evidence to support it and denying it is absurd. This doesn't necessarily negate a creator but it certainly negates a christian one.

2) Time problem: How can something be eternal? That would indicate it was around for an infinite amount of years before our existence, which is impossible because it would then take an infinite amount of years to reach our time. Some argue that the creator probably exists outside our time. That's also impossible. For us to be created there has to exist a before (a time prior to our creation) and an after (a time after our creation). Therefore, a creator NEEDS time to create us. Some then may argue that he also created time. You'll run into the same before and after problem here.

From this thread at internet infidels forums (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=90082)

---------------------------------------------------------------
DRAYGOMB's PARADOX

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - ala Greaa...t Grandfather St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.
God doesn't exist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore, I do not believe in a creator and think mankind would be better off spending its time doing more meaningful things, like helping one another and forgetting their petty little religious differences.

I follow the way of KUNG FU.

I'm an atheist because I don't believe in god(s). Simple.

I believe religion can do positive things, but the way many people treat it (fear of hell, scare tactics) detracts from the good that religion can do -- give hope.

2) Time problem: How can something be eternal? That would indicate it was around for an infinite amount of years before our existence, which is impossible because it would then take an infinite amount of years to reach our time. Some argue that the creator probably exists outside our time. That's also impossible. For us to be created there has to exist a before (a time prior to our creation) and an after (a time after our creation). Therefore, a creator NEEDS time to create us. Some then may argue that he also created time. You'll run into the same before and after problem here.

Then how do explain the existence of the universe? It's eternal.. and even before the Big Bang, there was something.. think outside the box.

My opinion on religion:
Mild contempt for those who follow it blindly, but indifference otherwise.
My opinion toward Christianity:
Judged for it's extremists. Just like all other religions.
My opinion of your assumption all atheists hate religion:
You, sir, are a ****ing moron.
Not all atheists hate religion, they don't believe any of the options available or (more likely than not) simply don't give a rat's ass. In fact, less than a percent of atheists actually speak out against religion. Yet people such as yourself assume all atheists follow a standard when in fact atheism is, in a way, theocratic anarchy. As such, you cannot make any consistent opinion of atheists if you are a deist or theist except for what is in the dictionary and that they don't agree with you theologically.
My opinion on those who assume atheists automatically have no morals:
Most of these people follow their faith blindly, so they get mild contempt. But I just need to blow steam, so I'll throw this at them: at least I don't need an outdated, warped, moldy tome to tell me right from wrong.

Sorry if anyone was offended. I tend to be a jackass when talking theology. And I have World Religions this year.

If you want to make things that way...who created "god"?
You can't make something out of nothing. "God" just did not appeared from nowhere, nor did he create the Universe out of nothing.
And according to the theory, there is not "before Big Bang" simply because there is this Big Bang-Big Crush sistem that is always happening. Of course this is just a theory, not a sure thing and it's likely Humanity will never solve this problem.

But you're using god in a mathematical/concrete example -- what if "god" and "heaven" are a state of mind? A feeling?

Just to throw something out ...

Time began at the Big Bang. There is no "before" or "outside."
Similarly, there is no cause and effect without time.

Isn't special relativity fun?

But you're using god in a mathematical/concrete example -- what if "god" and "heaven" are a state of mind? A feeling?

If you think that way you are not Catholic ;)
A "state of mind" is something extremely relative, since the human brain is so complex and unexplored.

As for History, You can't hold Christianity responsible for the acts of people who used the Bible wrongly. They're not true Christians.

please tell me you're also smart enough to apply this to other religions and see that there is a difference between moslems and islamists, please, it would truly make my day.

As for History, You can't hold Christianity responsible for the acts of people who used the Bible wrongly. They're not true Christians.

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter whether you thought they were or not, their interpretation is as valid as yours. Both of you could probably throw bible quotes, reinterpretations and rationalizations at each other to no end. No one's appointed you the universal judge of who's christian and who isn't. In fact, I've no doubt there's some people out there who would say you're not a "true christian" (whatever that is), for whatever differences in beliefs you may have.

All you really have to do is accept Jesus as your saviour and repent your sins sincerely. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was truly sorry for what he did and repent at the last moment in that bunker. Mind saying hello for me when you get back up to heaven? Faith is a messy business.

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid? Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.

Not all Athiests think that religion is 'stupid', or 'gay'. I'm mainly an Athiest because I was brought up that way. I respect other people's religions, though.

I already stated my opinions on the opening questions and comments at the top of page three, so now for my theological idealogy.
The only restraints that should prevent your actions are self-restraints.
Rely on yourself and only yourself. The more you depend on others, the more likely you are to fail from their lack of effort.
Treat people as you relate to them. Like who you like, hate who you hate, and don't let anyone else say otherwise.
Don't let the facts stop you from enjoying life. Except for pain. That's some data you should never ignore.
As you can see, my principles do not in any way support a higher power. Hence, although I have a more thorough and more simplistic moral code than most theist religions, I am atheist.

I'm atheist. I grew up christian but eventually started thinking for myself and came to the conclusion that I was lied to my entire life (even if the liees didn't realize it). Therefore, I'm now a little bitter about the entire thing and I want to spread the truth.

I'll give two reasons, to start off:

1) Evolution: It's a fact that evolution has taken place. It has been observed in nature and in the lab. There's tons of evidence to support it and denying it is absurd. This doesn't necessarily negate a creator but it certainly negates a christian one.

2) Time problem: How can something be eternal? That would indicate it was around for an infinite amount of years before our existence, which is impossible because it would then take an infinite amount of years to reach our time. Some argue that the creator probably exists outside our time. That's also impossible. For us to be created there has to exist a before (a time prior to our creation) and an after (a time after our creation). Therefore, a creator NEEDS time to create us. Some then may argue that he also created time. You'll run into the same before and after problem here.

From this thread at internet infidels forums (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=90082)

---------------------------------------------------------------
DRAYGOMB's PARADOX

Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - ala Greaa...t Grandfather St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.
God doesn't exist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore, I do not believe in a creator and think mankind would be better off spending its time doing more meaningful things, like helping one another and forgetting their petty little religious differences.
False Premise.

Let's use your definations:
Definitions:

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause - ala Greaa...t Grandfather St. Thomas Acquinas
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of a change.

Premises:

Something that created a object knows the loopholes in it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for a Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time to pass.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is created Conscious.
God requires not Time, he created it.
God can be the cause of Time if God requires not Time, he created it.
God is the cause of Time.
God is The First Cause.
If God is The Conscious First Cause then God does exist.
God does exist.

Thus using your words I proved he exists. Ha, Atheists, funny people. Using false logic.

*snip*

Non-sequitur. Where'd all these "conclusions" about God come from?
I smell question begging.

I'm just going to post my opinions without reading the last post, which is probably talking about bringing religions to emu, so this will sound random.

I am an athiest. The reason I don't believe in god is the same reason you believe in god. Because that's how we were brought up, and we can't remember thinking anything else. I've been to a bar-mitsvah more times than a church (I have a bunch of Jewish friends). I don't feel any belief that there is a higher power.

I have nothing against religion, when it is benign. Religion inspires people to do good, but when that inspiration is taken too far, this happens: :mp5:

Like Chris Rock in Dogma, I think its better to have ideas, rather than beliefs. You've never seen a fanatical athiest, have you?

To that dude that said athiesm is a belief, it's as much a belief as absolute zero is a heat.

Thus using your words I proved he exists. Ha, Atheists, funny people. Using false logic.

You are insulting all atheists, including me, who didn't EVER insulted you. I feel like insulting you really bad (Myrth knows I can do it in a pretty nasty way) but I won't do it.
Funny how you changed his logic...he didn't ever say that "god" created time, you did, so he has different conclusions, he used logic correctly, not false logic like you claim...guess you aren't that "honest" you funny reality-changer religious-guy..

Ok lots of stuff flying around in here, and I've got a pretty good opinon on every one so lets start at the top:

Christians Impressing Their Faith:

Why cant we just accept each other? Why cant we just let people believe what they want to believe? Well, lets take the logical next step. Insted of saying "Dang it! Stop Preaching at me!" why not think "Why the heck is this guy preaching at me?" Indeed, why would someone impress their religion on someone else? The answer is simple. Christians believe that people who do not believe in Christ do not go to heaven when they die, they go to hell. I'll address this can of worms later. So a christian, a real christian, expresses their beliefs out of nothing but sheer love. The idea that they care about you enough that they dont care what you think about them, just where you're going when you die. They believe that hell is a place of eternal suffering, and dont want you to wind up there. Of course there's always going to be "Christians" out there who use their "faith" to feel superior and will impress their beliefs on non-christians out of nothing but malice. These people are regarded as problem withing Christianity, but there's really nothing they can do about them.

Hell and Heaven

Pretty clean cut here. Christian doxology: you believe in christ and put your faith in him (Believe that by believing in him you will go to heaven) then you go to heaven. You do not believe in Christ, you go to hell. Narrowminded? Possibly. Here's a good way to think about it. You get some terrible illness and the only way to cure it is this one special kind of medication. Nothing else can help you at all. Do you take it, or do you call your doctor narrow-minded?
This of course brings up the age old argument of how can a good God create evil (a.k.a. hell, hunger, satan, ect...). Well, God doesnt nessisarily create evil so to speak. There is such a thing as heat, and we call something cold, but in reality, cold is merely the absense of heat. There is such a thing as light, and we call something dark, but in reality, dark is merely the absense of light. In the same sense, evil is the absense of God. Well isnt God supposed to be everywhere? Yes. But God gave us free will. We can choose him or we can choose ourselves. So, as a result, we can make things devoid of God. This is what we call evil.

Ok and one comment on the whole, if God is infinite then he must have had to wait an infinite amount of time before he created the world thing. That's circular reasoning. It's like xeno's paradox. We are forced to obey the rules of time so it's all we know, and therefore we cannot fathom something beyond it. it's like trying to imagine a fourth primary color. God, of course,is not bound by time as he created it and therefore can pretty much do whatever he wants.

Who is this Jesus?

Well when it comes to this all-controversial figure a person really only has three choices. Many people say that he was just a good man and a good teacher, but he also claimed to be God. Now it would seem that if someone is claiming to be God, that makes them either insane or a liar. And if someone is insane or a liar, they arnt a very good person or teacher. So lets break this apart:

Jesus Was A Lunatic:
If jesus was a lunatic then other evidence of his lunacy would appear in his life. On the contrary, his teachings are proved by experience to be sound and,if followed by all, would truly create a utopian society. He expressed great reason and knowledge of the Human psyche. Therefore, it would be quite a stretch to call him insane.

Jesus was a Liar:
If jesus was a liar then he was intentionally deciving all of his disciples. Yet, he must have surely believed it himself considering he died for it. But to believe that you are God is truly a sign of lunacy, yet we have just disproved that theory. Therefore, even by mere human logic, you can come to the conclusion that

Jesus is Lord:
Jesus had to have been who he said he was or he would not have died for it and still had sound teachings. (there is more to this argument, which is not mine but Josh McDowell's, a renowned and highly educated athiest, who, when he set out on a mission to disprove God's existence and Jesus validity using logic, converted to Christianity.)

How can God be a God of Mercy and Justice at the same time:
(besides from something dumb like "because he wants to")

God is supposed to be fully just yet also a God of mercy, but how can this be, the two almost being opposites? God demands that every sin (anything deviating from his law as to how we are to live our lives) must be paid and accounted for. In the Old Testament, the Jews had to kill something everytime they sinned. It was a very bloody and violent history. The payment for sin is always death. For any sin, something must die. That means everything from killing someone to telling a lie to simply thinking a lustful thought (and who isnt guilty of that?). Therefore, God is truly a God of justice. He required death to cover every sin. Yet, he allowed his wrath to be poured out on scape goats, animals, rather than people. The entire old testiment is there to show how serious sin is. Then Christ came, lived his entire life WITHOUT SINNING ONCE, and died. His death covered all the sin that ever was, and all that is to come. But it's just like a gift. you can accept his MERCIFUL gift of forgivness, or you can deny it. It's not manditory (free will again).

How can God have a plan and we still have Free Will?

Well, I guess God could have created us like a bunch of robots programmed to do his will, but then where would the joy be of us choosing to serve him? it's like a father working on, say, a play fort with his son. Sure, a robot that did everything he ever wanted quickly and flawlessly would be more efficient, but having his son work on the project with him, learning under him, and choosing to spend time with him, would be a much more enjoyable experience altogether. So, yes God does have a plan for our lives but we can choose not to serve him, and therefore, of course, miss out on whatever he had planned for us at the end.

Alright, hope this helps whatever you were wondering about or looking for. It's quite a mouthful, sorry. If you have any specific questions you dont want to post, telegram me in nation states

Ok lots of stuff flying around in here, and I've got a pretty good opinon on every one so lets start at the top:

Christians Impressing Their Faith:

Why cant we just accept each other? Why cant we just let people believe what they want to believe? Well, lets take the logical next step. Insted of saying "Dang it! Stop Preaching at me!" why not think "Why the heck is this guy preaching at me?" Indeed, why would someone impress their religion on someone else? The answer is simple. Christians believe that people who do not believe in Christ do not go to heaven when they die, they go to hell. I'll address this can of worms later. So a christian, a real christian, expresses their beliefs out of nothing but sheer love. The idea that they care about you enough that they dont care what you think about them, just where you're going when you die. They believe that hell is a place of eternal suffering, and dont want you to wind up there. Of course there's always going to be "Christians" out there who use their "faith" to feel superior and will impress their beliefs on non-christians out of nothing but malice. These people are regarded as problem withing Christianity, but there's really nothing they can do about them.

Hell and Heaven

Pretty clean cut here. Christian doxology: you believe in christ and put your faith in him (Believe that by believing in him you will go to heaven) then you go to heaven. You do not believe in Christ, you go to hell. Narrowminded? Possibly. Here's a good way to think about it. You get some terrible illness and the only way to cure it is this one special kind of medication. Nothing else can help you at all. Do you take it, or do you call your doctor narrow-minded?
This of course brings up the age old argument of how can a good God create evil (a.k.a. hell, hunger, satan, ect...). Well, God doesnt nessisarily create evil so to speak. There is such a thing as heat, and we call something cold, but in reality, cold is merely the absense of heat. There is such a thing as light, and we call something dark, but in reality, dark is merely the absense of light. In the same sense, evil is the absense of God. Well isnt God supposed to be everywhere? Yes. But God gave us free will. We can choose him or we can choose ourselves. So, as a result, we can make things devoid of God. This is what we call evil.

Ok and one comment on the whole, if God is infinite then he must have had to wait an infinite amount of time before he created the world thing. That's circular reasoning. It's like xeno's paradox. We are forced to obey the rules of time so it's all we know, and therefore we cannot fathom something beyond it. it's like trying to imagine a fourth primary color. God, of course,is not bound by time as he created it and therefore can pretty much do whatever he wants.

Who is this Jesus?

Well when it comes to this all-controversial figure a person really only has three choices. Many people say that he was just a good man and a good teacher, but he also claimed to be God. Now it would seem that if someone is claiming to be God, that makes them either insane or a liar. And if someone is insane or a liar, they arnt a very good person or teacher. So lets break this apart:

Jesus Was A Lunatic:
If jesus was a lunatic then other evidence of his lunacy would appear in his life. On the contrary, his teachings are proved by experience to be sound and,if followed by all, would truly create a utopian society. He expressed great reason and knowledge of the Human psyche. Therefore, it would be quite a stretch to call him insane.

Jesus was a Liar:
If jesus was a liar then he was intentionally deciving all of his disciples. Yet, he must have surely believed it himself considering he died for it. But to believe that you are God is truly a sign of lunacy, yet we have just disproved that theory. Therefore, even by mere human logic, you can come to the conclusion that

Jesus is Lord:
Jesus had to have been who he said he was or he would not have died for it and still had sound teachings. (there is more to this argument, which is not mine but Josh McDowell's, a renowned and highly educated athiest, who, when he set out on a mission to disprove God's existence and Jesus validity using logic, converted to Christianity.)

How can God be a God of Mercy and Justice at the same time:
(besides from something dumb like "because he wants to")

God is supposed to be fully just yet also a God of mercy, but how can this be, the two almost being opposites? God demands that every sin (anything deviating from his law as to how we are to live our lives) must be paid and accounted for. In the Old Testament, the Jews had to kill something everytime they sinned. It was a very bloody and violent history. The payment for sin is always death. For any sin, something must die. That means everything from killing someone to telling a lie to simply thinking a lustful thought (and who isnt guilty of that?). Therefore, God is truly a God of justice. He required death to cover every sin. Yet, he allowed his wrath to be poured out on scape goats, animals, rather than people. The entire old testiment is there to show how serious sin is. Then Christ came, lived his entire life WITHOUT SINNING ONCE, and died. His death covered all the sin that ever was, and all that is to come. But it's just like a gift. you can accept his MERCIFUL gift of forgivness, or you can deny it. It's not manditory (free will again).

How can God have a plan and we still have Free Will?

Well, I guess God could have created us like a bunch of robots programmed to do his will, but then where would the joy be of us choosing to serve him? it's like a father working on, say, a play fort with his son. Sure, a robot that did everything he ever wanted quickly and flawlessly would be more efficient, but having his son work on the project with him, learning under him, and choosing to spend time with him, would be a much more enjoyable experience altogether. So, yes God does have a plan for our lives but we can choose not to serve him, and therefore, of course, miss out on whatever he had planned for us at the end.

Alright, hope this helps whatever you were wondering about or looking for. It's quite a mouthful, sorry. If you have any specific questions you dont want to post, telegram me in nation states

(and, uh, "Holy Fro" doesnt have anything to do with religion, I just thought it sounded funny with Holy Empire)

sorry about posting twice. my comp froze and did something dumb.

Then how do explain the existence of the universe? It's eternal.. and even before the Big Bang, there was something.. think outside the box.

Someone mentioned that time was created at the start of the Big Bang already. We'll leave it at that.

LoL life was created by who cares - lets try and keep it here

As an atheist, I would never say that christianity is illogical or stupid. I have these beliefs for philosophical reasons. I don't cast judgement on other people who have different religions or beliefs other then me


enough said

False Premise.

Not quite.

Premises:

Something that created a object knows the loopholes in it.

What exactly is the loophole?

Conclusions:

Time is required for a Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time to pass.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is created Conscious.

God is created Conscious? Are you saying God is created? If not, a rewording would be nice so I know what you're saying.

God requires not Time, he created it.
God can be the cause of Time if God requires not Time, he created it.
God is the cause of Time.
God is The First Cause.
If God is The Conscious First Cause then God does exist.
God does exist.

Thus using your words I proved he exists. Ha, Atheists, funny people. Using false logic.

I'm not the one stating false logic here, in fact, I think you totally missed the point. For God to create Time, he requires Time to already have been created. It's the whole before and after spiel I mentioned in my first post. If something is created then there was a point in time where it didn't exist, thus, it requires Time to exist to have the before and after. For God to create Time, there has to be a point before Time existed for Time to be created. Therefore, God MUST exist in Time to be able to create Time. It's a paradox that cannot be answered but casts serious doubt on the existence of a creator acting outside of our time, philosophically.

The institution is led by bloody hypocrits! It's very backward in its thinking, oppressive attitudes, outdated teachings... plus it just plan doesn't fit in with my beliefs.

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid?

agnostic, but here's a shot... could it be that many religions are illogical and stupid?
i mean, don't get me wrong, the bit about treating other people nicely is all fine and dandy, but the bit about an all-powerful, omniscient deity creating an entire universe so it could bask in its own glory is ludicrous. why would such an infinitely perfect being be so insecure that it would need the worship of such insignificant pip-squeeks as ourselves?

i do enjoy buddhism, what with the god part not being necessary and all. let alone an angry, jelous father figure who demands respect.

Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?

i was christian for a good portion of my life. i've read the bible, i've gone to a youth convention, even an altar call and felt nothing. it's not that it was a bad experience, it's just that i felt nothing, i felt empty and left out.

then i go and read about other religions and stumble accross buddhism and feel cozy and warm. :) though i'm not a buddhist myself, i don't know nearly enough yet to even think of considering myself one.

Who is this Jesus?

Well when it comes to this all-controversial figure a person really only has three choices. Many people say that he was just a good man and a good teacher, but he also claimed to be God. Now it would seem that if someone is claiming to be God, that makes them either insane or a liar. And if someone is insane or a liar, they arnt a very good person or teacher. So lets break this apart:

Jesus Was A Lunatic:
If jesus was a lunatic then other evidence of his lunacy would appear in his life. On the contrary, his teachings are proved by experience to be sound and,if followed by all, would truly create a utopian society. He expressed great reason and knowledge of the Human psyche. Therefore, it would be quite a stretch to call him insane.

Jesus was a Liar:
If jesus was a liar then he was intentionally deciving all of his disciples. Yet, he must have surely believed it himself considering he died for it. But to believe that you are God is truly a sign of lunacy, yet we have just disproved that theory. Therefore, even by mere human logic, you can come to the conclusion that

Jesus is Lord:
Jesus had to have been who he said he was or he would not have died for it and still had sound teachings. (there is more to this argument, which is not mine but Josh McDowell's, a renowned and highly educated athiest, who, when he set out on a mission to disprove God's existence and Jesus validity using logic, converted to Christianity.)


it's kind of funny because you see, jesus never claimed to be a god. in fact, the divinity of jesus was voted on at the council of nicea. jesus being divine won by something like one vote and those who said he was a man were deemed heretics and expelled from the church.

the thing is, there's no actual evidence that such a man existed as jesus of nazareth. and oddly enough, the christian mythology looks very similar to the persian mythology involving mithras, right down to december 25th being the birthdate, wisemen bearing gold, frankinscence and mirh and hell, even being crufucied on top of a hill. the thing is that the mithras story dates back to well before any evidence of judaism has been found.

I guess I used to be a "atheist". I really didn't like how people would attribute everything Good in the world to God, and everything bad to Humans.

It seemed stupid to me, and hypocritical to me. My philosphy was that we're responsible for the good, and we're responsible for the bad, God has nothing to do with what happens to us. (I still largely feel this way)


Then I also thought how in History religion has been used to hurt people.



But then I actually read the Bible, and realized I was stupid. I'm not a converted Christian, I still don't fully believe all of it. But I accept it, and understand it more. I respect Christians, and think they are good people.

As for History, You can't hold Christianity responsible for the acts of people who used the Bible wrongly. They're not true Christians.


And then I looked in the past 100 years. All the great tragedies. And you know what? They were all by people who opposed religion. (Fascists, Communists, etc)

Then I looked at all the GOOD things people had done, and they were largely motivated by their religion. Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, etc..



I realized that religion isn't the problem. It's people who think they know everything about everything. Atheists, and Theists alike. As a Christian you can never know everything there is to know about Christianity and your religion. And as an atheist you can't claim that you know EVERYTHING and that Religion is just stupid and for the weak.


We're all people, and we can only know so much.
If you're a girl, or i was gay, I would kiss you right now.

I'm not asking atheists to be christians, I just want to know why they're not. I get so much crap in so many arguments that "all religion is crap!" kind thing, and I just wanted to know that they actually had a reason. I do also understand that Christians do it too, but (for the most part) I know why they do it.

Anyway, late at night, so I'll have to read the rest of this thread...sometime....when I have time...

it's kind of funny because you see, jesus never claimed to be a god. in fact, the divinity of jesus was voted on at the council of nicea. jesus being divine won by something like one vote and those who said he was a man were deemed heretics and expelled from the church.

the thing is, there's no actual evidence that such a man existed as jesus of nazareth. and oddly enough, the christian mythology looks very similar to the persian mythology involving mithras, right down to december 25th being the birthdate, wisemen bearing gold, frankinscence and mirh and hell, even being crufucied on top of a hill. the thing is that the mithras story dates back to well before any evidence of judaism has been found.
Actually, he did. I can find the verses, but it's too late, so I'll let someone else do it, or I'll do it later, or something.

Secondly, the date for Christmas was established long after Jesus was born. It's probably not right, we don't know. The Bible never says.
Thing is, there is evidence that it was in winter. Then, the Catholic Church back the dark ages decided that since they couldn't get the pagans to stop doing their thing, which was on Dec. 25, they'd slap a different label on it and smile and make people think they did good (not to criticize today's catholic church...). I have no doubt in my mind that Dec. 25 is suspiciously like some mithra-something or other, because, in fact, it was.

Hell is a very very very VERY generic idea.

Lastly, do you have any evidence for a time period that this was established? Remember, for me, I believe that Judaism (well, kind of) was the first religion, so there's no way that mithras could have been first ;)

please tell me you're also smart enough to apply this to other religions and see that there is a difference between moslems and islamists, please, it would truly make my day.


Yes, I have no doubt that there are Moderate Muslims in the world.

It's sad that, espeically in the Middle East, those moderates don't hold any power. What with, Sharia law, Arafat, Iran and all.

Actually, he did. I can find the verses, but it's too late, so I'll let someone else do it, or I'll do it later, or something.

did jesus write any of that? no. he did not. there was one verse where he said he was the son of god, but then there's another where he says that everyone is god's child.

Secondly, the date for Christmas was established long after Jesus was born. It's probably not right, we don't know. The Bible never says.
Thing is, there is evidence that it was in winter.

actually, it would be in the spring, the shepherds don't tend to tend the flocks out in the middle of the fields in the winter.

Then, the Catholic Church back the dark ages decided that since they couldn't get the pagans to stop doing their thing, which was on Dec. 25, they'd slap a different label on it and smile and make people think they did good (not to criticize today's catholic church...). I have no doubt in my mind that Dec. 25 is suspiciously like some mithra-something or other, because, in fact, it was.

actually, the european pagans had celebrations on the 21st for the solstice.

Lastly, do you have any evidence for a time period that this was established? Remember, for me, I believe that Judaism (well, kind of) was the first religion, so there's no way that mithras could have been first ;)

well, the earliest discovered copies of the old testament date to around 100 bce and the evidence for a monotheistic religion in the area of israel don't go much earlier than that. before then, there was a fair bit of evidence of worship of (a name you'll recognize) bal.

and yeah, zoroastrianism dates back pretty much to the advent of writing, so not much can predate it. hindhuism is contemporary with it though. and let's not get into the obvious early fertility worship among many pagans...

I see no reason to believe in a god or gods. No reliable, verifiable evidence has been presented. It does upset me when others make laws affecting my life based on the word of an imaginary being.
Jehovah, Santa Claus, Vishnu, Zeus, Thor, Puff the Magic Dragon, Wonder Woman; they’re all the same to me.

The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter whether you thought they were or not, their interpretation is as valid as yours. Both of you could probably throw bible quotes, reinterpretations and rationalizations at each other to no end. No one's appointed you the universal judge of who's christian and who isn't. In fact, I've no doubt there's some people out there who would say you're not a "true christian" (whatever that is), for whatever differences in beliefs you may have.

All you really have to do is accept Jesus as your saviour and repent your sins sincerely. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was truly sorry for what he did and repent at the last moment in that bunker. Mind saying hello for me when you get back up to heaven? Faith is a messy business.



In reality most Christian religions are not radically different from each other. They both have the same ideas behind salvation, and damnation. They both follow Jesus, and agree on what he said. They just practice their religion diffrently. Catholics have alot more ritual and tradition, then most Protestant churches.


So if someone goes and grabs a rifle, and says the Bible told him to kill non-believers. Well, no he's wrong. And he's not christian. And all the Christian faiths can agree on that.


If Hitler repented, and HONESTLY and SERIOSLY meant it. Then God would forgive him. That's the Christian way. Pope John Paul even forgave his almost assasin.

The thing is, it's not in Hitlers character to repent and mean it. He wasn't really very Christian. And God knows if your lying. You can't simply say, Oh crap. I'm sorry. FORGIVE ME!

but hitler thought he was doing god's work, eliminating the jews.

surely he can't be held responsable because he was misinformed, he was just following what he thought god wanted him to do.

but hitler thought he was doing god's work, eliminating the jews.

surely he can't be held responsable because he was misinformed, he was just following what he thought god wanted him to do.


No, see, Hitler didn't think he was doing God's work. Hitler wasn't even religious. I honestly don't even think Hitler believed Jews were inferior. But the guy was smart. And he realized he could get people worked up and pissed at Jews. Which would result in him rising to the top.


The Holocaust was about Politics, and a man's desier to control everything. It has absolutely nothing to do about God, or God's will.

Lastly, do you have any evidence for a time period that this was established? Remember, for me, I believe that Judaism (well, kind of) was the first religion, so there's no way that mithras could have been first ;)

Please tell me you dont actually beleive that.
there were religions before Judaism"
-The egyptians (arguably the first true civilization) had an advanced system of religious beleifs (revolviing around death rather tahn life... Kinda typical of religion :( )

-The sumerians (also arguably the first true civ....) had an advanced set of religious beleif. Hence refrences to gods and goldy powers in the epic of Gilgamesh. (also revolving around death...)

- The beleifs of Native Americans were certainly religious. I dont know how far back they go though, possibly to as early as the crossing of the land bridge.

I would also like to note that all of these religions include a flood myth. Suggests that contrary to christian beleif there was simply a flood in the middle east, not that it was caused by god. (suggestions have been made suggesting a burst ice dam barely previous to or just during the early neolithic revolution) Since their stories are so radically different, but share aspects.

Frankly I beleive that religion is a tool used to manipulate the unwary, and that it has caused corruption and will continue to corrupt until it is amputated from society like a gangreous limb.

Edit: Just for clarification I do not mean this in a violent manner, While i wish for change it must be peaceful or it defeats its own purpose.

No, see, Hitler didn't think he was doing God's work. Hitler wasn't even religious. I honestly don't even think Hitler believed Jews were inferior. But the guy was smart. And he realized he could get people worked up and pissed at Jews. Which would result in him rising to the top.


The Holocaust was about Politics, and a man's desier to control everything. It has absolutely nothing to do about God, or God's will.

i see... so he just wrote things he didn't think were true?

and at any rate, the thousand years of anti-semitism in the church probably didn't help prevent the whole holocaust situation from happening...

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid? Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.

Think of it this say. Say you're a christian, right? You think all other religions and gods besides your own are bullshit, right? So do we, except we just believe in one less god than you. :)

i just say god kicked the big bang in the ass and let it roll from there, but that's my point of view.
as for atheism, i have been atheist for a good part of my life, until about a year ago. despite going to mass and all that happy stuff, i really didn't think there was some supreme being who gave a damn if i ate communion or confessed stuff. why didn't i? it didn't make sense. the only reason i actually went to mass is because i got dragged along. i saw no point in getting up at 6 am and heading down to church to worship something no one has ever even seen (unless you count Jesus, but that's a technicality, and i didn't believe in the bible at that point.) it's not that i hated religion, i just didn't believe there was a need for it. the fact that my CCD teacher was a royal ass-biter didn't help the religion case either. ah, CCD... yet another thing i was dragged through by parents.
i said i was atheist for a reason, because i've had a lot of run-ins with stuff i can only call faith. no, i'm not christian, i'm just a believer in god, and that's as far as my dogma goes (i still see no point at getting up at 6 AM and going to mass to worship).
but hey, das me

Think of it this say. Say you're a christian, right? You think all other religions and gods besides your own are bullshit, right? So do we, except we just believe in one less god than you. :)
hehe, love it.

i see... so he just wrote things he didn't think were true?

He might have used a form of speaking called 'lying'.

First, I am not an athiest. I'm an agnostic.

Religion is based on blind faith. Very few practice because they have honestly studied it and believe it is "right." Notice how people practice the religion they were raised with? It's because they've been told to be followers ever since a young age.

I have nothing against the belief in a god, but rather with the religion.

People have to face the facts, the bible is out of date. It says that you can't eat shellfish, and you can sell your daughter into slavery. It can no longer be used to justify beliefs.

Personally, I don't have a problem with religion... but I will point out that religion isn't based on logic, it's based on faith, and therefore could be called "illogical".

BINGO!

I am a agnostic.. but that is only due to the fact that I dont know what happend b4 the bigbang and I have no clue about why a 1 celluar organism evolves into a human with eyes and stuff and can think properly.. I dont even know how I started to think did some1 turned on the Lights switch in my head when my dad pushed me in my mothers belly ;)?? (its mostly bcz of the first argument tho)

I also think most religion are based on the same principels (yes there variations.. some believe in nature stuff and some have a hundreds of gods) that u should live good and not hurt others to much..

I know if I was completly sure that there was no god I would really do what I like.. maybe even :sniper:
So i try not to really think about it.. just live good and every1 is happy.. god or no god.. that is all that matters in relegion and modern society anyway..

What the old books say mean nothing to me tho.. they seem like laws of an old culture in my eyes.. with a lot of *faith* in magic

And believers.. stop dicriminating Atheists.. u guys r supposed to be nice and stuff... :D Atheists don't believe in god so I see no reason for them to hold back tho ;)

And believers.. stop dicriminating Atheists.. u guys r supposed to be nice and stuff... :D Atheists don't believe in god so I see no reason for them to hold back tho ;)

That's a two-way statement. Atheists should stop discriminating against theists too.
Afterall. What if you're wrong? Just-in case, it'd be wise not to anger my god unnecessarily. ;)

That's a two-way statement. Atheists should stop discriminating against theists too.
Afterall. What if you're wrong? Just-in case, it'd be wise not to anger my god unnecessarily. ;)

Its not meant as a paradox or something i meant that Atheists r allowed to take the piss on every1.. bcz they have no reason not to..
and if there is a god.. arn't those Atheists forgiven because they dont know any better?

I am an atheist simply because I can prove my viewpoint empirically, whilst proof of any form of religion,spirituality, etc can only be found in the minds of believers

Rhyno D....

Intersting question, here's my 2 pence....

Religion and faith are two VERY different things.

Religion is something followed by weak willed sheep... people who abrogate all responsibility for their actions... hence the why does god let this happen! why would god do this.... well he would it? everything we do in this life is dictated by us. What religion is, is a fantastic tool of social control..... the big "faiths" as much political as they are spiritual.. it's mostly done by rote.... get up - pray because as a child you have been taught that.

Faith on the other hand is personal - only you can commune with the god-head, and faith comes from a belief in youreself and thes around you.. churches and other places of worship are irrelevant and divicive.... all you need (and this a huge factor of ancient Greece/Egypt/Rome/Illium) had home shrines.... there were yes huge temples errected, but this was more a national display of wealth and splendour. Faith shold be kept to ones self, the Spartans took great delight in mocking the athinian acts of pulic pray as no more than showing off (in effect keeping up with the Jonses, in this I pray more than you do neah!)

Those who speak little of their beliefs are the stronger.... empty bottles and all that.


Right.... the big C... christianity, when it first appeared (btw Christ was not a christian... he was an Asetic Jew... ) was debunct by he learned typs in Athens as already done, as it encompases vast chunks of easten and asiatic faiths... the christ figure beas a striking resembelence to Mithras.. and has aspects of the Apollo - sun god, healer, wiseman and so on.

Hands up who knows when the Roman Empire passed away? It hasn't! the Pope is still Emperor of Rome, under Constantine I, he used it as a tool to unite East & and the failing Western arms of the Empire.... the reason christianity is so in your face is because it was the religion of one of the most parasitic, destructive and plain nasty Empires in history the Roman...

Well that's me done... apologies for the poor spelling.....

Its not meant as a paradox or something i meant that Atheists r allowed to take the piss on every1.. bcz they have no reason not to..
and if there is a god.. arn't those Atheists forgiven because they dont know any better?

If you're gonna take that sort of chance, you'd better be sure. ;) Me? If I were an atheist, I'd keep quiet and behave. The penalty for the christians being right is bad enough without pissing God off. You know. Just in case.

Same thing with the Christians, though. If I were christian(and I am), I wouldn't flaunt it in the face of atheists either. Just in case the jews are right. :p

If you're gonna take that sort of chance, you'd better be sure. ;) Me? If I were an atheist, I'd keep quiet and behave. The penalty for the christians being right is bad enough without pissing God off. You know. Just in case.

Same thing with the Christians, though. If I were christian(and I am), I wouldn't flaunt it in the face of atheists either. Just in case the jews are right. :p

I make the claim that I myself am God incarnate. Do not deny my divinity, just in case I'm right.

And hey, and if the Muslims are right (or one of the other umpteen thousand religions and variations thereof), you and I can burn together, side by side, in the fiery pits of damnation for all eternity.
Won't that be swell! :D

I make the claim that I myself am God incarnate. Do not deny my divinity, just in case I'm right.

And hey, and if the Muslims are right (or one of the other umpteen thousand religions and variations thereof), you and I can burn together, side by side, in the fiery pits of damnation for all eternity.
Won't that be swell! :D

Oh, I won't deny it. But don't think that being God will protect you if you bend over and your briefs are showing. You'll be God with a Wedgie.

I'll be smited. But I decided long ago that the Supreme Being needs a wedgie. I'd wedgie Jesus if the opportunity presents itself. In a heartbeat. Then I'll be smited.

These things happen.

And If I see you in Hell, I'll be the guy saying, "Hey! I think I felt a breeze over here!" Just to get people worked up trying to find it. :D

For me It's not that I think all religious people are stupid, I'm just really tired at this point of religious people trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. Aethiest don't go door to door and try and convert other people, we don't try and make laws based on a book (Gay Marriage Ban in US), we we don't openly go against the law and use our religious beliefs as a defense. I think you will find most aethiest people to not even let their religious beliefs be well known, because a lot of people when hearing the word aethiest think that you're evil.

I've had religious friends and reletives give me bibles for christmas. I have 6 of them. I've read the bible, I think it's a nice oral tradition, I just don't believe there's a God.

I think that religion can be a wonderful thing and give comfort that after death there is an afterlife, and when things go wrong you can pray and ask for guidance. While religious people FEEL the spirit within them and KNOW that there is a god, I can tell you that I do not. Sometimes in life it would be comforting to be able to turn to a higher power, but deep in my soul [irony] I just don't believe it. I could pray, but it would just be a false prayer.

i really think religion aint nottin but a problem, i guess the religion itselve has almost create the racism, im not sayin in the only thing, but one of the most important, its all about hate, the religion makes differences betwen people, and then if some stupid fanatic like Hitler takes it very serious look what he does...

nowdays religion aint followed by what it mean but by tradition.

Hmm... I've watched forums like this for a long time, and have heard countless debates about theism, atheism, deism, etc... I think I'm noticing some patterns.

Let's just use Chistianity as an example, since that's definitely the more targeted religion. And when I use "Christians," I mean people who identify themselves as Christians. Whether they really are or not.

A good amount of Christians like to shove Christianity down other people's throats. Why? I think it's because they've mostly grown up with it, are familiar with it, and when they meet someone who doesn't share this view, they are caught off guard and rather shocked that such a person hasn't received "the Word." So they'll give you the equivalent to intense immersion-therapy. Problem is that most people don't like ANY kind of "therapy" like that.

--- God and Logic ---
And so, a good amount of Atheists will strike back, giving the Christians the third degree. They'll point out all the "logical" reasons why God or gods or whatever cannot exist.

Problem is, a higher being exists beyond the scope of lower beings, as well as (more often than not) in the same realm as the lower beings. Logically defining God in every aspect is entirely impossible for the human brain. Hence, faith comes in and fills in the rest of uncertainty.

--- Extremists ---
Yes, it is indeed correct that many religions and I dare so most if not all religions are attacked because of the actions of an extremist. Fundamentalists, stubbornly repeating the same rhetoric over and over, Muslim terrorists causing harm to other people; these are extremist. Do you honestly think all Christians in this world spout hell and damnation for sinners? No. Do all Muslims strap bombs to themselves and seek to kill the "infidels"? Heck no.

--- Radical Atheists ---
Radical Atheists DO exist. I think they are by far the worst of the radicals. They are not impeded by any belief stuctures that warrant good behavior, and they voluntarily choose to ignore the same sense of decency that most Atheists adopt anyway. They are menace to atheists and non-atheists alike. I've met a few, and I do not like them. At all. Nor do most people.

--- Time and Infinity ---
Picture a line. Now cut it in half. Do it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And by now you are glazing over the text. You are dealing with the concept of infinity (or the infintesimal, which is basically the same concept with a different direction). You deal with it by not pursuing it all the way through. The human mind does not have the capacity to understand infinity, just that you'll never get to the end of it. And just because humans can't fully deal with this concept, it doesn't mean that automatically everything is finite. That's the supreme arrogance of humans; thinking that they themselves are gods on earth and can analyze all existence if given enough time.

The "First Cause" argument is something completely based on the assumption that the infinite doesn't exist. Gee, infinity doesn't exist because humans can't grasp the concept. What a logical conclusion.

--- Jesus Exists/Existed? ---
Uhh... YES he did. The Romans were pretty particular about bookkeeping. They Jews even know he existed, though they certainly don't believe he was the Christ. Even Buddhists acknowledge that a "very wise man" came from the west and learned some things from them, then went back to his country, at a time that happens to correspond to Jesus reportedly wandering in the desert, away from Israel.

--- The Bible and Its Errors ---
Fundamentalists tend to fall flat on their faces on this one, and accordingly the entire religion is ridiculed. Sure the Bible has errors, but that doesn't make the whole thing wrong. Tomatos are fruits, not because of the taste. Fruits, by definition, house the seeds of the plant. No seeds, no fruit. Many health books say that tomatos are vegetables. It's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference of definition. But does that make everything else the books have wrong? Do things with high protein content not build muscle or does fat not make us, uh, fat?

You can also blame handwriting mistakes. Way back when, before computers and Xerox machines were invented, people actually had to write stuff. And copying stuff was a pain in the ass. Some guy read from a master copy, and the scribes wrote it down. The standards Bart has to do at the beginning of every Simsons? Try that times a million, possibly more. Human error, of course, will come into play. Oh crap, I made my "4" into a "9." Oh crap, what did the guy just say, "will not" or "have not"? And also, the people writing the original invidual parts to the Bible might have been misinformed about current events. I mean, millions of people are misinformed today.

Did you know that Judas Iscariot was most likely trying to force Jesus to become King, rather than truly get him killed? Or that John was more likely a self-important "Thunder Brother", if you will, rather than "the one whom Jesus loved," a term which is only used in, oh... the Gospel according to John? Lots of people miss little things, lots of people miss the fact that archaeologists are finding lots and LOTS of biblically historical artifacts, and finding out lots of things that actually support biblical events rather than the opposite. Which finally leads me to...

--- Evolution, Carbon-dating, and everything else ---
Evolution has NOT been observed here. Theories of evolution have only been around recently (in terms of human history). I find it hard we can observe such conclusive results in evolution. And they are only theories. Even Darwin on his deathbed said, "Remember. It's only a theory." However, lots of atheists like to think of it as more than just a theory.

I'd like to say that carbon-dating is THE MOST OVERRATED measure of dating in history. Carbon-dating is ridiculously inaccurate beyond a narrow bracket of years. Carbon-dating thought that a dead penquin was millions of years old. Carbon-dating thought that, when Mount St. Helens decided to blow up (literally), the resulting trenches that formed were actually formed millions of years ago, as well. Given that the entire theory (yes I said theory) behind it as actually true, one would require EXTREMELY PRECISE measurements to give a good estimate. The rounding error at the umpteenth decimal place would drastically chance the timeframe predicted.

And finally, a mathematical model of humans, taking into account a very generous dosage of wars, famines, and other population decreasing factors, showed that the first human being (or human being derivative) could not have been more than 100,000 years ago. This conflicts with the 24 million years that scientists using carbon-dating (on an object that has all but lost every atom of carbon-14 by now) have concluded on.

The agnostics seem to have gotten a good idea about mankind: we don't know enough to warrant the existence or absense of a higher being.

I'm going to sleep now... goodnight everyone. And remember, Everlight is renowned for their compulsory miltary service. And pristine beaches. And beer.

--- Time and Infinity ---
Picture a line. Now cut it in half. Do it again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And again. And by now you are glazing over the text. You are dealing with the concept of infinity (or the infintesimal, which is basically the same concept with a different direction). You deal with it by not pursuing it all the way through. The human mind does not have the capacity to understand infinity, just that you'll never get to the end of it. And just because humans can't fully deal with this concept, it doesn't mean that automatically everything is finite. That's the supreme arrogance of humans; thinking that they themselves are gods on earth and can analyze all existence if given enough time.

The concept of infinite is not entirely hard to understand. It is hard for our minds to picture something as infinite but it is not impossible to understand its concept. No one is saying that everything is finite and yes, given enough time, science will be able to answer most, if not all, questions about existence and its beginnings.

The "First Cause" argument is something completely based on the assumption that the infinite doesn't exist. Gee, infinity doesn't exist because humans can't grasp the concept. What a logical conclusion.

So the concept of a supreme being as the creator doesn't indicate a First Cause? In fact, most approaches to the concept of the universe's beginnings do not indicate a need for a First Cause by a non-creationist view. Quantum mechanics have actually shown that something can come from nothing in a vacuum without any cause.

--- Jesus Exists/Existed? ---
Uhh... YES he did. The Romans were pretty particular about bookkeeping. They Jews even know he existed, though they certainly don't believe he was the Christ. Even Buddhists acknowledge that a "very wise man" came from the west and learned some things from them, then went back to his country, at a time that happens to correspond to Jesus reportedly wandering in the desert, away from Israel.

Legends do not correspond to truth, no matter how many stories there are. There has never been any evidence that Jesus existed or that the stories about him are even remotely true.

--- The Bible and Its Errors ---
Fundamentalists tend to fall flat on their faces on this one, and accordingly the entire religion is ridiculed. Sure the Bible has errors, but that doesn't make the whole thing wrong. Tomatos are fruits, not because of the taste. Fruits, by definition, house the seeds of the plant. No seeds, no fruit. Many health books say that tomatos are vegetables. It's not a difference of opinion, it's a difference of definition. But does that make everything else the books have wrong? Do things with high protein content not build muscle or does fat not make us, uh, fat?

If the Bible is to be taken literally then it fails as an inerrant document, this we seem to agree on. Even not taking the Bible word for word still fails because not EVERY story within was meant to be taken as just a story to teach God's message. That would make it nothing more than a philosophy text. If you try to take something in between then which stories are supposed to be taken as is?

You can also blame handwriting mistakes. Way back when, before computers and Xerox machines were invented, people actually had to write stuff. And copying stuff was a pain in the ass. Some guy read from a master copy, and the scribes wrote it down. The standards Bart has to do at the beginning of every Simsons? Try that times a million, possibly more. Human error, of course, will come into play. Oh crap, I made my "4" into a "9." Oh crap, what did the guy just say, "will not" or "have not"? And also, the people writing the original invidual parts to the Bible might have been misinformed about current events. I mean, millions of people are misinformed today.

This just reinforces what I just said.

Did you know that Judas Iscariot was most likely trying to force Jesus to become King, rather than truly get him killed? Or that John was more likely a self-important "Thunder Brother", if you will, rather than "the one whom Jesus loved," a term which is only used in, oh... the Gospel according to John? Lots of people miss little things, lots of people miss the fact that archaeologists are finding lots and LOTS of biblically historical artifacts, and finding out lots of things that actually support biblical events rather than the opposite. Which finally leads me to...

If artifacts that support the stories in the Bible have been coming to light you'd have a lot less atheists and many more agnostics. Finding artifacts that show cities existed that are listed in the Bible does not prove the stories that mention them true. Troy has been found but no one believes in the Iliad.

--- Evolution, Carbon-dating, and everything else ---
Evolution has NOT been observed here. Theories of evolution have only been around recently (in terms of human history). I find it hard we can observe such conclusive results in evolution. And they are only theories. Even Darwin on his deathbed said, "Remember. It's only a theory." However, lots of atheists like to think of it as more than just a theory.

To start off, you don't understand the concept of a theory in its scientific meaning. To scientists, a theory is an explanation of some feature of the natural world that:


Is supported by empirical evidence.
Is testable and falsifiable.
Can be used to make predictions.


Evolution, again, HAS BEEN OBSERVED in the lab and in nature. Scroll down to "5.0 Observed Instances of Speciation" (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html)

I'd like to say that carbon-dating is THE MOST OVERRATED measure of dating in history. Carbon-dating is ridiculously inaccurate beyond a narrow bracket of years. Carbon-dating thought that a dead penquin was millions of years old. Carbon-dating thought that, when Mount St. Helens decided to blow up (literally), the resulting trenches that formed were actually formed millions of years ago, as well. Given that the entire theory (yes I said theory good for you) behind it as actually true, one would require EXTREMELY PRECISE measurements to give a good estimate. The rounding error at the umpteenth decimal place would drastically chance the timeframe predicted.

Learn more on C-14 dating here. (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-c14.html)

And finally, a mathematical model of humans, taking into account a very generous dosage of wars, famines, and other population decreasing factors, showed that the first human being (or human being derivative) could not have been more than 100,000 years ago. This conflicts with the 24 million years that scientists using carbon-dating (on an object that has all but lost every atom of carbon-14 by now) have concluded on.

And how did you arrive at this conclusion?

Then how do explain the existence of the universe? It's eternal.. and even before the Big Bang, there was something.. think outside the box.

Speculative, I'm afraid.

Many scientists believe that the universe isn't eternal, but that it is PART of an infinite cycle, so it will 'repeat' eternally.

Also - before the Big Bang... how far 'before'. The whole point of the Big Bang is that there wasn't anything there before.... there was a potential, and then the potential became the kinetic.

Many scientists don't subscribe to the Big Bang, either. A 'repeating' universe doesn't need it.

- The beleifs of Native Americans were certainly religious. I dont know how far back they go though, possibly to as early as the crossing of the land bridge.



The most likely crossing dates over the 'landbridge' would be somewhere in the 9,000 to 12,000 years ago ball-park.

That's a minimum of 6,000 years BEFORE the very earliest hints of Judaic scripture.

With regard to Mesopotamian scriptures, there is clear evidence that the Babylonians had a code of laws (ironically for Judaism, their laws actually ARE 'carved in stone', literally) that predates Mosaic law by a clear thousand years or more

No, see, Hitler didn't think he was doing God's work. Hitler wasn't even religious. I honestly don't even think Hitler believed Jews were inferior. But the guy was smart. And he realized he could get people worked up and pissed at Jews. Which would result in him rising to the top.


The Holocaust was about Politics, and a man's desier to control everything. It has absolutely nothing to do about God, or God's will.

Maybe. But, then again, raised in a Jewish community, in a 'Christian' nation, yet in the Austria/Germany region, which was still very fond of Passion plays at the turn of the last century. Exposed throughout the younger years of his life to Passion play propoganda (and thanks to Mel Gibson, we now have the same thing again...), it would not be too surprising if Adolf Hitler DID believe that purging the world of the 'Jews who killed Christ'.

Then again, of course... Hitler killed more Poles than Jews, and more Russians than everyone else put together, so... maybe he just didn't like anyone.

well I don't have anything against religion unless it hurts other people or you are trying to convert me.
I am not religious because I believe that either there is no god or if there is one they aren't very nice (considering what goes on in the world)
and if god is all powerfull and wanted me to be religious I'm sure s/he could tell me so.
sorry if I am repeting some one else I didn't read the rest of the thread

I make the claim that I myself am God incarnate. Do not deny my divinity, just in case I'm right.

And hey, and if the Muslims are right (or one of the other umpteen thousand religions and variations thereof), you and I can burn together, side by side, in the fiery pits of damnation for all eternity.
Won't that be swell! :D

It isn't the Muslims being right that would scare me....

what if the ones who are right are the MORMONS????!!!!!

It isn't the Muslims being right that would scare me....

what if the ones who are right are the MORMONS????!!!!!

you know, i don't really think we have anything to fear. no matter who's right or wrong, if there is a god, then it's bound to be smart enough to realise that we're all doing what we think is best and believing what we've been taught (directly or indirectly) is right, so it wouldn't give a damn. and hey, if you're nice to people while bumbling about like an idiot, then all the better. no one really knows what's out there, beyond what we can see or detect, and someone else's guess is as good as mine or yours. so quit bitching about it all and just make the trip around the sun easier for yourself and others as much as possible.

i just wondered what events happened or what is it that influenced someone to become an atheist? this is simply a question and nota jab or offensive move. i have never known anyone who was an atheist,so i havent had the opportunity to ask them questions about their beliefs or what their view of religion is. if anyone is an atheist, please reply.

i know i can look up atheism and get a general idea, but thats not what im looking for. id like to here personal responses. thanks

Searching for the meaning of life is an outdated concept. We all realise that the meaning of life is simply to procreate and ensure the future of our species. (Does this stretch to involvement in environmental issues and the such in this modern age?)
Thus life has become meaningless for the majority of us. I know that if I don't create any new life it will have very little effect on the future of my flawed species. I'm sure that people have realised this for thousands of years.
I often wonder....did this realisation that the meaning of life was now meaningless co-incide with the development of religion.
Spirituality=Good
Religion=? :headbang:

Hmm.

I think that Religion is, or rather was, a great way of explaining things. It gave you an answer to lifes questions, gave each and everyone of us a purpose in life, it even let us know what would happen when we died.

But its very hard to believe that anymore.

In the day and age we as a race have lost our faith, mainly due to a few main factors:

- We seem to explain things about life/death more realistically that any holy book does.
- There really is just to much bad stuff in this world for a God to be looking over us
- Most people, unfortunatly, rarely care about much else except themselves in this world

Science seems to answer it all now, and I know I havn't seen many acts of God lately. And more death has come of mis-interpreted religion and wars of conflicting faith than any other thing, period.

I have always felt religion gave hope (perhaps false, perhaps not) to people with none, i've always had faith in myself, so i must admit i havn't needed religion much.

Don't get me wrong, i would love to believe, i'd love to think if i'm good i'll go to heaven and all bad people will suffer in the next life, but i just can't without some kind of proof! And I know it's about having Faith, but in what?

I've got to hand it to you Christians, you throw yourselves into your God, without question, you feel he is real without doubt.

I so wish i could...

I know this is the opposite of what this threads about, but can some christians let me know how you believe?

you know, i don't really think we have anything to fear. no matter who's right or wrong, if there is a god, then it's bound to be smart enough to realise that we're all doing what we think is best and believing what we've been taught (directly or indirectly) is right, so it wouldn't give a damn.

Or maybe he'd be pissed off because we have the ability to make decisions and think things through for ourselves but we tend to do as we are told and follow the hatemongers and propagandists.
Everything we are told we are told for a reason.
And that reason, somewhere along the line, is money.
Not power....power is and has always been a means of amassing money.

I am not a revolutionary. I am not a rebel. If I am offered alternatives that I find acceptable, I would be more than happy to comply. :confused:

How can one belive there is no God. Obviously there are things we don't understand about religion and God, but there are just things in which we must have faith. There is proof of God in the world around us. How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us. Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here. God created it. I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us. As they say what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Just accept God. I can assure you life is better with God. (the only God -- not buddha or allah or anything else)

Oooh three posts in one day.
But I can't keep my fingers of the keyboard after reading that Dark Lord matey.

Why did this planet have to be created.
Creation is a start. Starts and finishes are concepts of rationalised time.
Humans rationalised time.
Why did anyone have to create this place. It just is, and always has been.
Theories expressed by Stuart are not necessarily the views of the Bullockian government!

Stop trying to find meaning in your life and live it instead.

How can one belive there is no God. Obviously there are things we don't understand about religion and God, but there are just things in which we must have faith.

why must we have faith in something we can't see, touch, taste, hear, detect on instruments et c.? is there any reason for us to have faith in such a thing?

There is proof of God in the world around us. How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us. Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here. God created it.

where's the proof? where's the evidence that the world wasn't created teh way one can learn in a basic astronomy course, i.e. from a giant dust cloud along with the rest of the solar system.
we have also learned that life is a lot more resiliant than previously thought. we find life anywhere we find liquid water it seems. from deep sea themal vents to the antarctic.
we're aware that the world hasn't been here forever, but we're also quite aware of the forces that would result in the creation of such a solar system as our own. we can observe it happening elsewhere in our galaxy.

also, what plan?

I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us. As they say what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Just accept God. I can assure you life is better with God. (the only God -- not buddha or allah or anything else)

actually i find my life better without god. i was quite depressed and timid as a christian. i would also like to point out that allah is the same god as your jehovah and buddha never claimed divinity he was simply a man who discovered a way to peace and shared it. note that i said a way, buddha never claimed to be the sole carrier of the truth.

and also, if your'e going to believe in one god, when why not many? i mean, why would there be just one? a power struggle that resulted in teh deaths of the others?

i just wondered what events happened or what is it that influenced someone to become an atheist? this is simply a question and nota jab or offensive move. i have never known anyone who was an atheist,so i havent had the opportunity to ask them questions about their beliefs or what their view of religion is. if anyone is an atheist, please reply.

i know i can look up atheism and get a general idea, but thats not what im looking for. id like to here personal responses. thanks

I don't know if I am typical for an atheist, but most of the atheists I have met have arrived at atheism by variants on the same route, namely:

They usually start off in a family that has a religion... whether it be Hard religion (a devout family, sabbaths, church, etc.) or Soft religion (they believe in 'god' in whichever form).

They listen to the stories - totally believing, at first. They may or may not go to church - depending on the family. They are 'religious'... once again, either Hard (They have a 'fever' for 'god', in whichever form) or Soft (they kind of believe that there is a 'god')

Then, they start to realise that the stories of their faith, don't quite add up. Maybe some of their preachers told different stories, and they can't be reconciled. Maybe it's the stuff attached to the religion that ISN'T in the texts. Or maybe it's just the texts - since they are artifacts of human hands, they are all prone to errors.

Eventually, they come to the conclusion that the basis of their chosen religion is not as they were told. They see more and more of the 'gaps' in their religion, as they start to become distanced from it, and, therefore, free of the 'conditioning' of that faith.

Eventually, from that point... they realise they don't belive in the 'god' they were sold. At this point, they start to look elsewhere for their spirituality, and find the same 'problems' in all the other faiths, too.

Thus, they are left with no 'god' to believe in. Thus, they become Atheistic.

(Which explains also, why most Atheists have such broad knowledge of theology).

How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us. Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here. God created it.

I think the problem is for most of us we just can't comprehend how you have such definate faith that this is true.

I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us.

Does letting terrorists kill hundreds stregthen us? Does letting women get raped strengthen them?!

How can one belive there is no God. Obviously there are things we don't understand about religion and God, but there are just things in which we must have faith. There is proof of God in the world around us.

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
(2) Only God could have made them so complex.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us. Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here. God created it.

ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
(2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us.
ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


As they say what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.

ARGUMENT FROM ABUSE
(1) You always hurt the ones you love.
(2) God hurts me.
(3) Therefore, God loves me.
(4) Therefore, God exists.


Just accept God. I can assure you life is better with God.


ARGUMENT FROM COMFORT
(1) All kinds of people have found comfort in religion.
(2) That means there must be something there to give comfort to them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.


(the only God -- not buddha or allah or anything else)
ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, aka TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) More people have had positive religious experiences in the context of Western theism.
(2) Therefore, God is kind, just, and all-loving.
(3) [non-believer: What about the people who have had negative experiences? Or experiences of God's non-existence?]
(4) They don't count.
(5) Therefore, God is just the way I describe him to be.
(5a) Oh, yeah. And God exists.

Does letting terrorists kill hundreds stregthen us? Does letting women get raped strengthen them?!
yes, and what lesson does an infant learn from being shaken or beaten to death? how does a murder victim grow and mature from their experience of being killed? how does dying in an earthquake teach humans anything?

For anyone else, along with atheists, what's so wrong about Christianity?

Oh, and if you can, provide specific examples...

Christianity falls under religion, dude. And it's all gay

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid? Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.


ok, one: being in the immediate family of a homosexual, I resent the use of the word "gay" as an insult

two: I dont Hate religion, in fact, I beleive its a good thing for those who cannot do the right thing out of simple moral responsibility, and need a divine consequence for "sin"

Religion is great for those who are too stupid or too blind, or simply too unoriginal to actually do the "right" thing without the help of a "god".

How can one belive there is no God. Obviously there are things we don't understand about religion and God, but there are just things in which we must have faith. There is proof of God in the world around us. How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us. Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here. God created it. I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us. As they say what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Just accept God. I can assure you life is better with God. (the only God -- not buddha or allah or anything else)


I should slap you so hard....I cant take people like you.

My life isnt better with god, beleive me, Ive tried. Ive tried alla, Buddha and vishnu too, theyre just not working for me. I gave up after shintoism, and decided to skip the church of satan, and just give it up. If there a god, he has a big pole up his ass, 'cause he sure hates ours.

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
(2) Only God could have made them so complex.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MY ARGUMENT-1
1)first how do you not know that it is the human mind that didn't make things so complex?
2)If there is a god then how did he exist?
3)Describe to my how or more improtantly why god exists, that's like asking how the big bang theory happened.

ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
(2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MY ARGUMENT-2
1)Sure there beautiful...but then how can people come up with reasons why they are beautiful?
2)Why would god make things as simple as a flower, or a sunset, beautiful? Why do that when he/she (Depending on your opinion cause i know some people who think that god is a she) could have not made the emotion of hate?
3)Explain to me why god exists, what is his purpose?

ARGUMENT FROM INCOMPLETE DEVASTATION
(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MY ARGUMENT-3
1)Why did god let the plain crash in the first place?
2)Why let only the one child survive with out at least one parent?
3)Explain to me this.


ARGUMENT FROM ABUSE
(1) You always hurt the ones you love.
(2) God hurts me.
(3) Therefore, God loves me.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

M ARGUMENT-4
1)If god exists then why must he let us hurt one another?
2-3)How can someone hurt you yet love you? How can someone put you through phisical and emotional pain so great, and you still love them, and they love you?
3)Explain to me this

ARGUMENT FROM COMFORT
(1) All kinds of people have found comfort in religion.
(2) That means there must be something there to give comfort to them.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MY ARGUMENT-5
1-2)If god exists and is to give us the "perfect" world, why do we need the comfort?
3)Explain to me why god exists

ARGUMENT FROM POSITIVE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE, aka TAFFY LEWIS'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) More people have had positive religious experiences in the context of Western theism.
(2) Therefore, God is kind, just, and all-loving.
(3) [non-believer: What about the people who have had negative experiences? Or experiences of God's non-existence?]
(4) They don't count.
(5) Therefore, God is just the way I describe him to be.
(5a) Oh, yeah. And God exists.

MY ARGUMENT-6
1-2)Why do we need different religion if there is only one god?
3-5)If we are all gods children then why do the people who had negative experienses or experiences of god's non-existence not count of got is kind, just, and "all' loveing?
5)Answer me all of this

MY ARGUMENT-6
1-2)Why do we need different religion if there is only one god?
3-5)If we are all gods children then why do the people who had negative experienses or experiences of god's non-existence not count of got is kind, just, and "all' loveing?
5)Answer me all of this


they cant, cuz theyre not smart enough. Marilyn vos savant started disrpoving atheist very well at one time. It was funny. I would love to see a savantvs. Hawkins theological debate.

oh one more thing...i'm just asking cause this stuff has been on my mind for a long time so please don't get offended...i'm just asking

they cant, cuz theyre not smart enough. Marilyn vos savant started disrpoving atheist very well at one time. It was funny. I would love to see a savantvs. Hawkins theological debate.

but why would god make some people less inteligent then other's if god's an all loveing being and conciders every living thing as equals then why would he do this?

but why would god make some people less inteligent then other's if god's an all loveing being and conciders every living thing as equals then why would he do this?


Republican answer: Cuz god is not a communist!

MY ARGUMENT-6
1-2)Why do we need different religion if there is only one god?
3-5)If we are all gods children then why do the people who had negative experienses or experiences of god's non-existence not count of got is kind, just, and "all' loveing?
5)Answer me all of this


1. god is an invention of humanity, different humans at different places and different times considered teh afterlife to be a different thing, tehy considered a different deity (or dieties)
2. what? you just confused the hell out of me.
3. phrase your questions better and someone might have a shot at it.

they cant, cuz theyre not smart enough. Marilyn vos savant started disrpoving atheist very well at one time. It was funny. I would love to see a savantvs. Hawkins theological debate.
actually, Marilyn Vos Savant has been exposed as a fraud, and her arguments "disproving" atheism were easily refuted by high school students. since Vos Savant of no more than slightly above average intelligence, and since Stephen Hawking is most like the smartest human ever to live, i think the theological debate would mostly consist of him (and the audience) laughing hysterically at Vos Savant's attempts to cover her own ass.

response to Bottle's "ARGUMENTS FOR..." post, cut for length
honey bunny, READ THE POST AGAIN. it's called satire, and all of those "arguments" are very clearly crap. that was the point, to show that the "arguments" posted by the Dark Lord chap were inherently ridiculous.

actually, Marilyn Vos Savant has been exposed as a fraud, and her arguments "disproving" atheism were easily refuted by high school students. since Vos Savant of no more than slightly above average intelligence, and since Stephen Hawking is most like the smartest human ever to live, i think the theological debate would mostly consist of him (and the audience) laughing hysterically at Vos Savant's attempts to cover her own ass.


ok...(sigh) Vos savants IQ is 28 points higher than hawkins. she just lost some face in front of me because, despite her great intelligence, she still relies on religion.

ps, hawkins cant really laugh

ok...(sigh) Vos savants IQ is 28 points higher than hawkins. she just lost some face in front of me because, despite her great intelligence, she still relies on religion.
um, no, actually it isn't. numerous experts have shown that the "measure" of Vos Savant's IQ that she and her sources claim is fraudulent, and that it is not statistically possible for the measures she claims to have correctly or accurately determined her IQ. she claims to have a measured IQ that falls well outside the range that can be tested by the exams she claims to have been given, and all reputable researchers have concluded that giving somebody such an IQ measurement would be impossible using any modern test. being such a genuis, you would think she would be able to come up with a better lie.

ps, hawkins cant really laugh
actually, yes he can. i'm a bit of a hawkins fan, you see, and i've been to a lecture he gave...he laughed several times during the talk.

actually, yes he can. i'm a bit of a hawkins fan, you see, and i've been to a lecture he gave...he laughed several times during the talk.



a hawkins fan...wow...Im resisting the urge to laugh harder than hawikins himself ever could. Its just sooo funy.

Im here arguing with a left-brainer.

um, no, actually it isn't. numerous experts have shown that the "measure" of Vos Savant's IQ that she and her sources claim is fraudulent, and that it is not statistically possible for the measures she claims to have correctly or accurately determined her IQ. she claims to have a measured IQ that falls well outside the range that can be tested by the exams she claims to have been given, and all reputable researchers have concluded that giving somebody such an IQ measurement would be impossible using any modern test. being such a genuis, you would think she would be able to come up with a better lie.

yeah, one of my friends only has a range for his iq since they couldn't test it properly.

he also got sent off to university at 14 though, so it's not like it's a common thing to be that smart...

and what does stepeh hawking laughing sound like? the same monotone/electronic thign he ususally has? or does he have like a special audio clip for laughter?

thank you Grave N Idle. many different views on this topic. i think i could argue religion all day. thing is-the arguing is mostly within myself. i was raised with the same general Bible stories and stories about God and Jesus. i have tried to believe in him whole-heartedly and pray and try to do whats right. i dont necessarily need proff to believe in him. it would be great if he would come and part the atlantic ocean or speak to me from a burning bush in my yard, but it seems miracles of such and turning water into wine are not performed anymore. i think that the premise is the having faith part. the dictionary gives one definition of faith as Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. i think god asks us to believe in him and we will receive our reward.....he isnt going to make it easy for us hence the no proof -you just need to believe. its difficult to believe in something you have never seen evidence of. and i dont mean the earth or trees or babies. some say those are all miracles, but they differ from the miracles of the bible that i spoke of early. sure if someone threw a stick down and it turned into a snake, itd be hard not to believe in that! i also have a hard time dealing with somethign some of you said earlier about how does rape and murder and child abuse and all that teach us something. ive caught myself "questioning God" in my heart and asking "why did that child have to suffer abuse?" where were you?" after i queston him-i have this enormous amount of guilt because ive questioned the almighty. how dare me. thats the main thing i have a problem with is all the suffering that is going on.last year, a guy in my state stuffed tissues down a 4 month old babys throat and then broke both its arms and legs just because it was crying. many people have left their child in the car and it died from the heat or lack of oxygen. a man broke into his ex girlfriends house and killed her 5 year old daughter and 8 year old son because he was angry with her. an 11 year old girl was tortured, raped, put in an clothes dryer and it was turned on and then her genitals were cut and thensewn back together with fishing line and a large needle...this was by her moms boyfriend. the girl lived but will probably comit suicide later on in life. how can all this be going on?? its a double edged sword having to serve God and trust in him unconditionally. am i wrong to questoin these horrors ive just mentioned or should i just accept them and believe in christ and that it will all just work out. its a constant struggle.

You know...I was tinking, in a tgeological debate, you can just go all "yeah? well stephen hawkins is an atheist! Are you smarter than stephen hawkins??

and then you can REALLY shove it in their faces by asking " are you better looking tthan stephen hawkins???

Cuz the man is a sex beast

and then you can REALLY shove it in their faces by asking " are you better looking tthan stephen hawkins???

Cuz the man is a sex beast

yes, because as we all know, looks are all that has ever mattered.

how about you stop bashing one of the most brilliant minds there is simply because you know that his iq is probably triple yours.

dont get me started on religion u wont like it

dont get me started on religion u wont like it
Feel free to start, but why not post with your main nation rather than with a puppet?

To Bottle: Ha Ha ya sry i'm a little slow, accually i didn't know how to start my own part in this conversation so when i saw the post i just used what you said as a start up for my own part in the conversaiton...so please pardon my "crap" and i didn't mean to sound fresh if i did just there. So i'll just shut up and leave you guys who accually know what your talking about alone.

I usually don't even bother to check the forum threads that pop up while I'm on NationStates, but this one caught my interest, so I think I should respond. I apologise in advance for not reading the seven pages of threads before posting.

What makes religion so horribly illogical or stupid?
To be completely honest, I don't believe all religion to be stupid. I can see why it's a useful device to offer hope to people who have nothing to believe in, and to occasionally convince them that if they live their lives doing "good," that they will be redeemed from their misfortunes after death.
However, at the same time I have to say I've done my research on many, many religions and do consider myself to be relatively well-versed in theology, and consider the vast majority of religions to be highly illogical. This is partially due to the "unquestionable" nature of many of them--in particular those which are monotheistic--which quite nearly demand you to believe without question what you are told to believe. This to me is the ultimate demeaning stance that anyone can take; it doesn't seem possible, to me, that someone can claim to truly believe something, or to understand it, if they refuse to question it and learn more in doing so.
On the other hand, you see a variety of polytheistic religions which (the Native American religions being of particular note) place emphasis not on the omniscience or unquestionable right of an all-powerful deity, but instead on nature and the sanctity of the world around them. This is not to say that all polytheistic religions are like that, because they certainly are not all of that philosophy, but I can see some validity in the beliefs of a nature-based religion. When a religion is rooted in believing that everything around them has a spirit and should be respected as such, well, they've gone so far as at least to recognise that they are not "special" or above all other life on the planet (a notion supported by many, if not all, monotheistic religions, which I find quite absurd) and that all living things on our planet rely on other living things to keep nature in balance--a biological truth, if you will, that's always in effect, as you observe changing populations of predator and prey, herbivores and the plants on which they rely, as time goes by. I feel that a religion which respects the world around it as alive holds a certain validity over one based mainly in the belief of a single deity that created Man to be special (which is another thing that deterred me from such religions--the inherent superiority complex that they possess in a remarkably non-symbiotic nature) that might bless you, if you are found to be "good" by the standards set by the men who run your local theological branch, or send you suffer eternally if you do something they perceive to be wrong. And since these modern monotheistic religious "standards" are set by human society, they are in themselves infinitely fallable.
Perhaps it's just that I look mainly at whether something is logically and scientifically sound above all else; but as there is no religion that could by definition fit the bill, my current stance is, and remains, thoroughly atheist.

Ok, I understand that some people have had bad experiences with religion, and some people tried it,and didn't get into it, but what about all the people who just say all religion is gay?
First off, the poor terminology of this question makes it very hard to take seriously. If you want people's opinions, try not to ask for them in a way that might offend others.
To address the question, however, I must say that I've had no such "bad experiences" with religions of any sort--my family was Eastern Orthodox Christian, though we rarely attended church, and it was over a period of several years where I devoted good deal of my time to researching religion. This search left me as a confirmed atheist, simply because no religion I could find made logical and coherent sense outside of it's own existence. And since religion in general, I found, could not support itself outside of itself, it was logically invalid.

What is it about religion that you hate so much? And don't just give me "well, i hate religion because it's gay", give me a real reason.
As I said, I don't "hate religion" at all. I find it illogical, for the reasons I stated above (hopefully in a coherent fashion) but I don't hate it in itself. My distaste for religion stems from the fact that it leads so many people to behave in ways that wrong their fellow man, but that fault lies mainly not within the tenets of the religions itself, but rather with the infinitely fallable and corruptable men who either create or manage the religions. It's been made clear throughout history that more bloodshed has been "justified in the name of God" than ever should have been. Whether these people genuinely believed it or not, one can never tell. All we know is that mankind's monotheistic legacy is one marred with bloodshed, not necessarily by the fault of the religion itself, but as I said by corruptable individuals following blindly selective portions thereof.

Obviously there are things we don't understand about religion and God, but there are just things in which we must have faith.
Why must "we" simply have faith without justification for it? What is it that requires us to believe anything without reasonable evidence? Should we believe something blindly simply because someone else tells us to?
I think that questioning yourself and others is the key to understanding who you really are. If one is content not knowing who they are, let them be happy with what others tell them they are. But for myself, and for many other atheists, I know, "because God said so" simply isn't a sufficient answer.

There is proof of God in the world around us. How else could you explain a perfectly created world and His perfect plan for us.
Our world is an imperfect one. It is perfect in one sense--that there are established sense of what we refer to as scientific laws that are always true under the current established conditions of our planet--but to otherwise claim that it's "perfection" stems from a single omniscient being (who created the fragile human body and psyche "in his own image," apparently) is highly unlikely at best and altogether quite illogical. My own policy is to believe that something stems from the mundane before seeking a mystical explanation for it--and there are far more likely theories than the one presented from the religious standpoint.

Things just don't happen. The world just wasn't here.
This is true. Things don't just magically happen. Each action has an equal and opposite reaction, most generally in accordance with a scientific law that can be repeatedly proven. My main dispute with blind faith rests with the fact that it encourages people to take things at face value, and not try to understand beyond the "what" of an event, instead of encouraging them to understand the "why" or "how" of what's going on. Introspection, as well as questioning the world around you, are what I believe to be crucial in understanding the world in which we live.

I know some people say if there is a God why would He let so much bad stuff happen. God doesn't do things to hurt us. He gives us trials to strengthens us. As they say what doesn't kill me makes me stronger.
This is, from one perspective, an admirable standpoint, and good illustration of my previous point--religion can be beneficial in the sense that it gives many people the strength to overcome obstacles when they don't believe the strength within themselves to do it alone. But is again one of those things which cannot be proven one way or another--do bad things happen as a "trial" to test our strengths, or simply as an unfortunate stroke of bad luck, or something different altogether? You'll probably get as many answers as people you ask. It's a matter of "personal truth" so long as it cannot be proven either way.

Just accept God. I can assure you life is better with God. (the only God -- not buddha or allah or anything else)
See, the number one thing that repulses me from modern Christianity (and I suppose Christianity throughout history) is its patronizing views of people who are not Christians. What right does one man have to dictate to another what he should believe in (for his own sake, as is often claimed), or whether or not he'll be "saved" when he dies? What right do you have to tell me, from one human to another, that my beliefs are wrong, and that the only true and real ones are your own?
It doesn't matter to me what individuals believe. I believe that everyone is entitled to their own individual beliefs, and that it is wrong to attempt to impose your own on others--and Christianity is by nature a culturally imperialistic religion that feels it's necessary to "enlighten" others to the teachings of Christ at the threat of fire and brimstone. Perhaps it's done with the best intentions; many people do genuinely believe the others must be "saved" by the grace of their God in order to avoid hell in the afterlife--but to try and intimidate people into those beliefs (as is, unfortunately, a common practice by the very nature of Christian "salvation") is wrong.
Perhaps in some aspects I'm marginally hypocritical, I admit. There's really no such thing as an unbiased response, after all. I did this in segments throughout several hours, so it may seem a bit disjointed. I apologise if it turns out in such a way, and I hope that I addressed the points of the original topic well enough.
If any of you actually read this whole post, I applaud you. I don't think I'd have the patience for it :P

I heard something the other day that made me think for a bit.

"You can't believe in something that is real"

Which is actually true.

You don't believe in Grass or Stone, mainly because you know its true.

If we actually knew God existed, we wouldn't really believe in him, we'd just know, there would be no Faith because Faith wouldn't be needed.

God can't prove himself to all of us because i guess then we would not have the Faith. And i think Gods need faith to survive...

I heard something the other day that made me think for a bit.

"You can't believe in something that is real"

Which is actually true.

You don't believe in Grass or Stone, mainly because you know its true.

If we actually knew God existed, we wouldn't really believe in him, we'd just know, there would be no Faith because Faith wouldn't be needed.

God can't prove himself to all of us because i guess then we would not have the Faith. And i think Gods need faith to survive...


well said...thats a nice way to look at it

Ok, to answer some general statements that I've been seeing...

First off, you can prove that religion is true.
You can't prove that atheism is any more true that religion
So, if you answer is "Religion isn't true", find a new one. That's not good enough.

Secondly: Athiesm is based on faith from the first thing I said. Someone said that you don't believe in grass, you just know it to be there. But this requires faith that "there" is really there...Most people don't even think about it, because it's just a simple matter of believing that reality is, in fact, real. Everything requires faith. Here's a nice quote from Orson Scott Card (Speaker for the Dead):
And that's as sure as we ever are of anything. We believe it enough to act as though it's true. When we're that sure, we call it knowledge. Facts. We bet our lives on it.
You may claim that facts can be proven with instruments and experiments, or whatever, but you can't prove that the instruments are 100% correct. Even you can, you still have to prove that they're real. So, if you believe anything, it requires faith. if you know anything, it requires faith. Every action you do requires faith, in something, even if you're only having faith that the ground is there and won't drop you if you take a step.

If you don't believe me, try to prove that grass is real.

umm... irrelevant... Fact is, Im a whole lot more sure that grass exists 'cause i can experience grass. See it... Roll in it.. and smell it (much to my dismay 'cause im allergic). I can't see, feel, hear, touch, or smell god, I cant even get an instrument to confirm god. That said... Is faith required to beleive in nothing? no.

Religion has been the cause of the suffering of innocents who make the mistake of beleiving in a corrupt, power hungry, rhetoric spewing fool, who is no better than the least moral business man alive. to quote Queensryche in their song "Spreading the Disease"


"Religion and sex are power plays
Manipulate the people for the money they pay
Selling skin, selling god
it all looks the same on your credit card"

umm... irrelevant... Fact is, Im a whole lot more sure that grass exists 'cause i can experience grass. See it... Roll in it.. and smell it (much to my dismay 'cause im allergic). I can't see, feel, hear, touch, or smell god, I cant even get an instrument to confirm god. That said... Is faith required to beleive in nothing? no.

Religion has been the cause of the suffering of innocents who make the mistake of beleiving in a corrupt, power hungry, rhetoric spewing fool, who is no better than the least moral business man alive. to quote Queensryche in their song "Spreading the Disease"
Ever seen the Matrix? ;)

And atheism has done all of that too, ya know...point in case, Stalin.


And some have seen God. Some people have felt God...Smell, I don't know about...I would think he would smell good. You can't see air. When the wind isn't blowing, you can't feel it.
As for instrumentation...a few centuries ago they couldn't see viruses...does that mean they didn't exist?

I heard something the other day that made me think for a bit.

"You can't believe in something that is real"

Which is actually true.

You don't believe in Grass or Stone, mainly because you know its true.

If we actually knew God existed, we wouldn't really believe in him, we'd just know, there would be no Faith because Faith wouldn't be needed.

God can't prove himself to all of us because i guess then we would not have the Faith. And i think Gods need faith to survive...

Close, He doesn't need faith to survive. let me explain. all upon this earth are spirit children of God. We all knew who he was. but since we lived in such a time when you were just good cuz you were in his presence, He needed to find what spirits were truly faithfull. so he came up with a plan, a plan to figure out which were truly faithfull enough to come back and live in his presence. which plan was then opposed by satin or lucifer or the devil. whichever you know him as. yes he is also real. but he had a plan to make it so that on earth there was no agency. so then everybody would make it back to live with god. now this wouldn't work because then the lives we have on earth just would have been for nothing. yet there was 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that liked lucifers plan so much that they followed him. this 1/3 was cast down. those with actual physical bodies today aret the 2/3 that understood the risks and said that they would follow gods plan. now so here we are on earth. God had to make it so that we would only know him by faith. it we truly knew him then his plan would not work. so those that choose not to follow him are those that aren't passing this so called test that he has set up. so that is what faith is for. it is because there can be no other way to test yet by faith.

Close, He doesn't need faith to survive. let me explain. all upon this earth are spirit children of God. We all knew who he was. but since we lived in such a time when you were just good cuz you were in his presence, He needed to find what spirits were truly faithfull. so he came up with a plan, a plan to figure out which were truly faithfull enough to come back and live in his presence. which plan was then opposed by satin or lucifer or the devil. whichever you know him as. yes he is also real. but he had a plan to make it so that on earth there was no agency. so then everybody would make it back to live with god. now this wouldn't work because then the lives we have on earth just would have been for nothing. yet there was 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that liked lucifers plan so much that they followed him. this 1/3 was cast down. those with actual physical bodies today aret the 2/3 that understood the risks and said that they would follow gods plan. now so here we are on earth. God had to make it so that we would only know him by faith. it we truly knew him then his plan would not work. so those that choose not to follow him are those that aren't passing this so called test that he has set up. so that is what faith is for. it is because there can be no other way to test yet by faith.
What religion is this? Please tell me you don't think that this is Christianity.

And some have seen God. Some people have felt God...Smell, I don't know about...I would think he would smell good. You can't see air. When the wind isn't blowing, you can't feel it.
As for instrumentation...a few centuries ago they couldn't see viruses...does that mean they didn't exist?

No it just means that I cant beleive in what I cant have real beleivable proof of. I mean think about it... I can say "I saw a giant flying saucer" but you arent gonna beleive me. One of the rules for prooving something is (other than that it has to be real) that you dont do it once. Every experiment that we accept has been done once and then repeated by scientists around the world.

What religion is this? Please tell me you don't think that this is Christianity.
this is where christianity comes into play. Jesus christ was the eldest of the spirit children. he supported god. I know this may be slightly confusing to you. if so visit www.jefflindsay.com and searth through there to find the answer to every question. there was life before this life. jesus agreed to come and atone for our sins to make it possable to be pure enough to live in the presence of god. that makes it so that repentance is possable. and yes. my religion is very very christian. just visit the site.

Hmm, sorry for the double post but I would also like to say this. If the christian god was real in the way that the bible talks about him or in the way that catholics and mormons do, I would go to hell rather than accept him as anything, because he does not deserve anyone's faith.

Hmm, sorry for the double post but I would also like to say this. If the christian god was real in the way that the bible talks about him or in the way that catholics and mormons do, I would go to hell rather than accept him as anything, because he does not deserve anyone's faith.
Well then I will say no more. exept for. I feel deeply sorry for you. because hell is a pretty bad place. anyway. jefflindsay.com a great site.!!

Hmm, sorry for the double post but I would also like to say this. If the christian god was real in the way that the bible talks about him or in the way that catholics and mormons do, I would go to hell rather than accept him as anything, because he does not deserve anyone's faith.
But why doesn't he deserve faith? He created you, gave you a chance to live! Why don't you think that he's good?

thank you Grave N Idle. many different views on this topic. i think i could argue religion all day. thing is-the arguing is mostly within myself. i was raised with the same general Bible stories and stories about God and Jesus. i have tried to believe in him whole-heartedly and pray and try to do whats right. i dont necessarily need proff to believe in him. it would be great if he would come and part the atlantic ocean or speak to me from a burning bush in my yard, but it seems miracles of such and turning water into wine are not performed anymore. i think that the premise is the having faith part. the dictionary gives one definition of faith as Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. i think god asks us to believe in him and we will receive our reward.....he isnt going to make it easy for us hence the no proof -you just need to believe. its difficult to believe in something you have never seen evidence of. and i dont mean the earth or trees or babies. some say those are all miracles, but they differ from the miracles of the bible that i spoke of early. sure if someone threw a stick down and it turned into a snake, itd be hard not to believe in that! i also have a hard time dealing with somethign some of you said earlier about how does rape and murder and child abuse and all that teach us something. ive caught myself "questioning God" in my heart and asking "why did that child have to suffer abuse?" where were you?" after i queston him-i have this enormous amount of guilt because ive questioned the almighty. how dare me. thats the main thing i have a problem with is all the suffering that is going on.last year, a guy in my state stuffed tissues down a 4 month old babys throat and then broke both its arms and legs just because it was crying. many people have left their child in the car and it died from the heat or lack of oxygen. a man broke into his ex girlfriends house and killed her 5 year old daughter and 8 year old son because he was angry with her. an 11 year old girl was tortured, raped, put in an clothes dryer and it was turned on and then her genitals were cut and thensewn back together with fishing line and a large needle...this was by her moms boyfriend. the girl lived but will probably comit suicide later on in life. how can all this be going on?? its a double edged sword having to serve God and trust in him unconditionally. am i wrong to questoin these horrors ive just mentioned or should i just accept them and believe in christ and that it will all just work out. its a constant struggle.

The problem with the idea of a god that wants us to believe without proof, is that there is no PROOF that there IS such a god. We don't know that 'god' asked us to believe in him - but, if we DO believe in him, then we have to believe that he asked us to believe without proof.... if you see what I mean.

You shouldn't feel bad about questioning god. I am sure that, if there IS a god, he's not above a little question-and-answer. Look at the lives of Abraham and Thomas, to see biblical examples of people who turned their back on god, or questioned god, and still acheived biblical greatness.

I don't even need to get started on the bad-mouthing Job gave god, and yet he's one of the few people who is actually listed as a good man in scripture.

I read about the 'evils' you describe, and, it's things like that that make me wish I DID believe in Hell. Choking babies, or rape, etc. seem like pretty good reasons why the death penalty isn't always 'good enough' - but then, these things aren't happening BECAUSE of god, or DESPITE god... these things are happening because some people are sick and wrong.

As an atheist, I don't have the luxury of believing that this is all part of some big plan - so, I deal in the here and now. I try to make my life good, the lives of those I love good, and the lives of everyone no worse.

As a christian, you need to know that these things are sent to test your faith. You need to know that none of us are given MORE than we can bear.
You need to know that, even if YOU can't see the purpose, god always has a purpose.

But why doesn't he deserve faith? He created you, gave you a chance to live! Why don't you think that he's good?
a rapist may father a child, but that doesn't mean the child should respect, love, or honor a father who is unworthy of such consideration.

besides, if God is all-powerful then it didn't cost Him a thing to create me, so i don't owe Him a thing.

and then you can REALLY shove it in their faces by asking " are you better looking tthan stephen hawkins???

Cuz the man is a sex beast

The picture you showed wasn't a great one, but he really does have very nice eyes.

Plus, he's intelligent, has a wry sense of humour and a lovely personality...

Why wouldn't someone like him?

Ok, to answer some general statements that I've been seeing...

First off, you can prove that religion is true.




Go ahead.... prove that it is true...

Which one will you be proving first?