NationStates Jolt Archive


The shit that apparently matters to God... if the holy rollers are right that is

1248B
09-09-2004, 03:10
BRIELLE, N.J. (AP) - An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman Catholic doctrine.

To read the entire article: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040820/D84ILOQ00.html

And what else can I say but: "That's just plain friggin' STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If the believers are right, fat chance, she'll just have to burn in hell for not being able to eat that wafer... So much for the "compassion" that the Church is supossed to promote. HA!
Copiosa Scotia
09-09-2004, 03:12
Those Catholics are picky about their communion bread. The transubstantiation thing, y'know.
Trotterstan
09-09-2004, 03:14
i dont get it. I thought when you ate the thing it 'became' the body of christ. From my admittedly basic knowledge of human biology, the body of christ wouldnt be made of wheat anyway.
New Vinnland
09-09-2004, 03:19
*chuckes* Oh, those wacky superstitions.
1248B
09-09-2004, 03:19
i dont get it. I thought when you ate the thing it 'became' the body of christ. From my admittedly basic knowledge of human biology, the body of christ wouldnt be made of wheat anyway.

Tell that to the priests who clearly are ignorant of their own teachings. :(
Cannot think of a name
09-09-2004, 03:25
Somewhere Jesus is going "Oh for f*ck's sake, it was a metaphor you *ssh*les....I was trying to make a point. Don't make me duel you..."
Ashmoria
09-09-2004, 03:31
i feel the need to point out that catholics arent holy rollers
that would be more properly used to describe pentecostals and others who are big on speaking in tongues and going into religious trances.
Athenoi
09-09-2004, 03:56
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations. Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants. Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.
Arenestho
09-09-2004, 04:13
This was already posted some time ago.

The Catholic Church did change it's tradition, this was during the SARS 'outbreak' in Toronto.
Dempublicents
09-09-2004, 04:20
Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants.

And the Catholic Church does not? Study the history of the church and then answer.

Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer.

Actually, it could - or it wouldn't be a big deal in the first place. Allergies can be very severe. Even the tiniest amount of something could cause a pretty violent reaction.

If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

And that really does sound like a holy roller belief. Ever stop to think that God is trying to demonstrate the futility of relying on silly regulations instead of true faith? Do you honestly believe that God can turn wheat into flesh but can't turn rice into flesh? That's putting an awful lot of restriction on the power of God, isn't it?
Skeelzania
09-09-2004, 04:30
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations. Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants. Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

Its intelligent, compassionate opinions like this one that really show why religion is good. -rolls eyes-
Copiosa Scotia
09-09-2004, 04:35
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations. Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants. Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

Just let me say that I'd like to disassociate myself from beliefs like these.

Oh, and also that an allergic reaction can kill you if the allergy is serious enough. I know someone who has to carry a syringe with him at all times in case he accidentally comes in contact with peanut butter.
Harmonia Mortus
09-09-2004, 04:38
Something similar to this happened to me in my school.
Y'see, Im alergic to the Tetnus vaccine, as in, VERY allergic. Last time I got the shot I ran a temperature of 105 (farenheit) for a five days, that is NOT a pleasant experience.
Well, my new schools Buerocracy was rather insistent that I get this vaccine, and said I couldnt get an exemption, so I would HAVE to get this shot,
Somehow, I dont think that school will do me much good if I lose half my brain cells to a fever.
So eventually I went to the hospital, got the shot, sat in bed with a temp of 102 for a few days and went to school. Im trying to figure out how to get even with that b*tch of a nurse.
Oh...and I got the flu as well.
Breweries
09-09-2004, 04:41
"The diocese has told Haley's mother that the girl can receive a low-gluten wafer, *** or just drink wine at Communion*** but that anything without gluten does not qualify. Pelly-Waldman rejected the offer, saying her child could be harmed by even a small amount of the substance."

Now c'mon. If she they'll let her get away with not even eating the wafer, why can't they let her eat one that won't be dangerous?
Ellbownia
09-09-2004, 04:52
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith...

Lasted longer? WTF are you talking about. It started sooner. They're both still around.

...and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations.

You're half right. There is only one Catholic church, ALL OF CHRISTIANITY! I'm sure what you meant to say is that there is only one ROMAN Catholic church.

Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants.

Show me in the Bible where it says I can't eat meat on Friday during Lent.

Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

Very compassionate. Jesus would be proud.
Pyta
09-09-2004, 05:00
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations. Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants. Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

huh, a little wont hurt her? The lethal dose of Botulism toxcillius is 10 Picograms to the kilogram, that means someone weighing approximately 200 pounds, it would take 1/10,000,000 of a gram to kill them outright.

A little my ass
Mystery Ink
09-09-2004, 07:46
Ooooo someone did their bio warfare research! I'm impressed!

As for the topic on hand: ITS FUCKING SYMBOLISM! The Salvation Army does not serve wine with their communion because a lot of people who go there are recovering from alcoholism. Does that mean that their communion is less meaningful?

The concept of 'religion' is what Jesus came to destroy, not create.


And for the record, the Romans were the first people to fuck up Christianity.
Ankher
09-09-2004, 10:34
Since when do wafers have anything to do with what the Christian god wants?
Chess Squares
09-09-2004, 11:31
Since when do wafers have anything to do with what the Christian god wants?
since the vatican said so :rolleyes:
PioMagnus
11-09-2004, 05:17
First off the name of the Catholic Church is the "Catholic Church"---Roman Catholic only refers to one of the 23 individual rites in Catholicism. Roman Catholic refers to the Latin Rite. When you say Roman Catholic you are ignoring the Ukranian Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Melkite Catholics, and many other rites.

The Girl has the option of receiving only under the form of wine. This is a valid option in Catholicism. Also there are wafers that have such a low gluten-count (it's gluten, not wheat the girl is allergic to btw) that it is very unlikely to cause any kind of reaction, but if she fears it enough she can still receive under the form of wine. The reason she can't receive a no wheat wafer is because the Church believes that matter, form and intention must be present for a sacrament to be conferred. If the matter is invalid (rice wafer) the sacrament did not take place. The Church has no power to change this (Ordinatio Sacrametalus mentions this as well)

The bible has many instances of fast and abstinence. No meat on fridays is just such an abstinance. Further the Catholic Church believes in Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture. We don't need to find all of our beliefs in the bible. Sola Scriptura guys have a problem though. SS isn't in the bible. It's a self refuting theory.

If it (real presence) was symbolism why didn't he correct those who left saying "This teaching is to hard for us"?

What tradition are you reffering to that the Church changed at the SAR's Outbreak? If you are reffering to not giving the people the consecrated wine, that is not a matter of Doctrine, but of Discipline. Disciplines may change, doctrine may not.

-PM
Dakini
11-09-2004, 05:18
hey, one of my friends is allergic to wheat too.


and yeah, those catholics all have bugs up their asses over their damn christ crackers.
Dakini
11-09-2004, 05:21
fun fact: the followers of mithras ingested crackers with crosses on them and drank wine to symbolize the flesh and blood of mithras, a practice that dates to long before christianity came about.
Brittanic States
11-09-2004, 05:45
If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.
An interesting idea , you reminded me of this bible verse
Mat 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"
Enn
11-09-2004, 06:41
Catholic doctrine hasn't changed in centuries and I am quite certain that it never will. While you may consider us "holy rollers", the church has lasted over a thousand years longer than the protestant faith and there is only one Catholic church whearas there are tons of Protestant denominations. Protestants for the most part make up what they want to believe to suit their individual needs and wants. Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.
As someone who undergoes an anaphylactic fit if I accidentally ingest any type of shellfish, I sincerely hope that you are not serious. Having your throat close is not fun.
Mentholyptus
11-09-2004, 06:47
fun fact: the followers of mithras ingested crackers with crosses on them and drank wine to symbolize the flesh and blood of mithras, a practice that dates to long before christianity came about.
1. Who are/were the mithras?

2. Where do I sign up?

Seriously though, the Church (Roman Catholic, I refer to) has no business telling her (or her family, I guess, since she's young) that they can't use a no-wheat wafer. This may well be a life-and-death matter for the girl, and I really don't see how a wheat Christ Krispie is so different from a rice Jeez-It. (I had to use them both. I apologize to Catholics...no I don't. It was funny.) Someone show me the Catholic doctrine in the Catechism or whatever that says "And the Lord Spake, saying 'Communion wafers must be of wheat, for rice is of the Devil.'"
Dakini
11-09-2004, 06:58
1. Who are/were the mithras?

2. Where do I sign up?

Seriously though, the Church (Roman Catholic, I refer to) has no business telling her (or her family, I guess, since she's young) that they can't use a no-wheat wafer. This may well be a life-and-death matter for the girl, and I really don't see how a wheat Christ Krispie is so different from a rice Jeez-It. (I had to use them both. I apologize to Catholics...no I don't. It was funny.) Someone show me the Catholic doctrine in the Catechism or whatever that says "And the Lord Spake, saying 'Communion wafers must be of wheat, for rice is of the Devil.'"

1. mithras was a mythological figure. called the mediator by the babylonians, he was to stand between ahura mazda (god) and the devil (i forget what they called their devil at the moment) those who believed in him would go to paradise and those who didn't would go to hell. it is the mystery religion of rome as well. it's funny though because there was always an inner sect who knew that mithras didn't exist and such, and for a time there was such a sect for christianity (the gnostics) however, the christians attempted to wipe out the inner sanctum who knew the truth, whereas the followers of the mystery cult didn't.

2. i'm not sure if you can sign up, it started off as zoroastrianism, which one can't convert into. you must be born into the religion and can't even marry into it. hence the decreasing numbers...
PioMagnus
12-09-2004, 02:13
I can't find anything that says "Rice is the devil" but I was able to find this

Can 924 paragraph 2 of the Code of Canon Law

The bread must be made of wheat alone and recetly made so that there is no danger of corruption

The Church does have a right to say what kinds of materials can be used in a Church ritual.

Can. 925

Holy Communion is to be given under the form of bread alone or under both kinds in accord with the norm of the liturgical laws or even under the form of wine alone in case of necdessity.

The girl can receive just the wine. It is completely valid and licit. Further, Catholics don't believe you have to EVER receive the Eucharist in order to get to heaven.

Oh, and again. The name is CATHOLIC church. Roman Catholic just refers to one of the 23 rites.

-PM
New Genoa
12-09-2004, 02:14
Somewhere Jesus is going "Oh for f*ck's sake, it was a metaphor you *ssh*les....I was trying to make a point. Don't make me duel you..."

Exactly. The spiritual meaning is more important than the physical one.. :rolleyes:
Superpower07
12-09-2004, 02:14
Just let me say that I'd like to disassociate myself from beliefs like these.

Oh, and also that an allergic reaction can kill you if the allergy is serious enough. I know someone who has to carry a syringe with him at all times in case he accidentally comes in contact with peanut butter.
My friend used to be deathly allergic to bee stings, so he'd have an Epipen as well - now it seems he's outgrown the allergy, I think
Grishnackhistan
12-09-2004, 02:26
Sure that girl cannot eat wheat...well big whoopty do...it is only a communion wafer, I am sure it wouldn't endanger her life to eat a communion wafer. Soon fat women will want to have communion steak instead of wafers so they don't have to eat "carbs". Their argument will be "steak is closer to human flesh than a cracker". Gah. spare me. Do you actually think a communion wafer would have endangered that girl's life? I am not certain but how much wheat does a wafer have to have to be allowed in Catholic churches, I am sure it isn't much and not enough to harm that girl. If they had enough faith they would have just let her eat a regular wafer and believed that God would take care of her.

Because, you know, innocent people NEVER die. :rolleyes:
Erinin
12-09-2004, 02:31
To read the entire article: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040820/D84ILOQ00.html

And what else can I say but: "That's just plain friggin' STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!"

If the believers are right, fat chance, she'll just have to burn in hell for not being able to eat that wafer... So much for the "compassion" that the Church is supossed to promote. HA!
First Dick-nose not every Christian is a Catholic.
Second apparently given the title of this thread,
the "Shit" you believe in doesn't include "Class", Vocabulary, or Tact.

To your point, yes it is a testimonial to the ignorant hypocracy of the Mother Church and its twisted devotion to dogma rather then God.
Erinin
12-09-2004, 02:32
I apologize for calling you a dick-nose.
I would edit it but that would be like pretending I didnt do it.
Sorry.
Suicidal Librarians
12-09-2004, 02:53
I'm Protestant, we only have communion a few times a year, I don't see why she would "burn in hell" for something as stupid as that.
PioMagnus
12-09-2004, 06:35
take it from a Catholic, she wouldn't burn in hell for not receiving the Eucharist. We don't belive that.
1248B
14-09-2004, 04:01
First Dick-nose not every Christian is a Catholic.
Second apparently given the title of this thread,
the "Shit" you believe in doesn't include "Class", Vocabulary, or Tact.

The class, vocabulary and tact that is obviously yours, right? :rolleyes:

BTW I never said that every christian is a catholic.
1248B
14-09-2004, 04:03
I apologize for calling you a dick-nose.
I would edit it but that would be like pretending I didnt do it.
Sorry.

As they say.... it takes a dick-nose to call someone a dick-nose. :)

And hey, who cares what you say? :rolleyes:
United Seekers
19-09-2004, 16:58
First off the name of the Catholic Church is the "Catholic Church"---Roman Catholic only refers to one of the 23 individual rites in Catholicism. Roman Catholic refers to the Latin Rite. When you say Roman Catholic you are ignoring the Ukranian Catholics, Marianite Catholics, Melkite Catholics, and many other rites.

The Girl has the option of receiving only under the form of wine. This is a valid option in Catholicism. Also there are wafers that have such a low gluten-count (it's gluten, not wheat the girl is allergic to btw) that it is very unlikely to cause any kind of reaction, but if she fears it enough she can still receive under the form of wine. The reason she can't receive a no wheat wafer is because the Church believes that matter, form and intention must be present for a sacrament to be conferred. If the matter is invalid (rice wafer) the sacrament did not take place. The Church has no power to change this (Ordinatio Sacrametalus mentions this as well)

The bible has many instances of fast and abstinence. No meat on fridays is just such an abstinance. Further the Catholic Church believes in Sacred Tradition as well as Sacred Scripture. We don't need to find all of our beliefs in the bible. Sola Scriptura guys have a problem though. SS isn't in the bible. It's a self refuting theory.

If it (real presence) was symbolism why didn't he correct those who left saying "This teaching is to hard for us"?

What tradition are you reffering to that the Church changed at the SAR's Outbreak? If you are reffering to not giving the people the consecrated wine, that is not a matter of Doctrine, but of Discipline. Disciplines may change, doctrine may not.

-PM

PM, thanks for clearing up the misunderstandings many here seem to have about us Catholics and our beliefs and traditions. I just hate it when non-Catholics argue about what Catholics believe and do not believe. That makes as much sense me arguing about what a black man in the ghetto believes. I am not black, and I never been in the ghetto. How would I possibly know his beliefs or traditions?

The one thing I question is that the Catholic Church says one must take the Eucharist (wafer) as made only from flour and water. But I asked a rabbi about their matzah bread (traditionally made from flour and water only) and he said for those with Celiac disease or any type of allergy to the matzah, there is an alternative that is used so they can eat some kind of matzah at Passover Seder meal. For those who do not know Christian history, Jesus Christ ate his last meal with his friends, the Apostles, and we call that the Last Supper. It was the traditional Jewish Passover Seder meal. Now back in the day, the matzah eaten would have only been of flour and water. No alternatives, but in the 21st century, if Jews found an alternative to the meal, why can't CAtholics?

Until there is a change, I will back up my Church's teachings. So that leave the wine as the only viable alternative to those with allergies to gluten in the wafer. I understand that the parents of this little girl didn't want her drinking wine at such a young age. Now that is plain silly. The French, Itialians and Germans are known for drinking wine often at meals, even young children taste of the VINO. What is wrong with having a 7 or 8 year old sipping a bit of the Wine at Mass? She ain't getting drunk on the stuff. My word, talk about limiting yourself to nothing.

S
PioMagnus
19-09-2004, 18:32
Well, there is one simple (well more than one, really, but I'll just narrow it down) difference between the Seder Meal, and the Eucharist.

The Seder is not a sacrament. However, since the Eucharist is, we have no power as Catholics to change the matter used. If the pope were to say tomorrow "We may now use rice wafers" it would not change the fact that a valid sacrament would not have been conferred. Not only that, but if the pope were to say that it would prove the Catholic Church is not the True church, as this statement on Faith would be infalliable---and wrong.

If we ever see this happen it will be time for every Catholic to abandon the Church and move over to the Eastern Orthodox. But DO NOT FEAR. This will not happen.

-PM