NationStates Jolt Archive

Apologize, Senator Kerry
Kerry stole the vets’ honor. And they’re coming to get it back.



Thirty years later, it still makes their blood boil. When, in April 1971, John Kerry testified to a Senate committee that "...war crimes committed in Southeast Asia [were] not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command," he said that the average American soldier who fought in Vietnam was a war criminal. Kerry's statement was false, a blood libel that hangs in the air to this day. If John Kerry had apologized, maybe he'd never have had to deal with the little group that calls itself "Vietnam Veterans for Truth."


A Martian observer at the Democratic Convention could have concluded that we won the Vietnam War, and did so because of John Kerry's bravery. He wouldn't know that there are really three John Kerrys: presidential candidate Lt. (j.g.) Kerry, radical anti-war protester Kerry, and Senator Kerry. If — as many now believe — Kerry lied about his war record, that's bad news for candidate Lt. Kerry. But if Lt. Kerry lied, he was lying about himself. For the common soldiers of the Vietnam War, anti-war radical Kerry lied about them in his Senate testimony. For that, they will neither forgive him nor sit idly while he pursues the presidency. And Candidate Kerry is about to have a very bad day: A whole bunch of those common soldiers Kerry purported to speak for on that April 1971 day are coming to Washington on September 12. They will rally under a banner that says, "Kerry lied while good men died."

That Sunday afternoon, hundreds — perhaps thousands — of Vietnam-era veterans will gather near the Capitol building to condemn Kerry for his 1971 libel, and for repeating those lies again and again in his political career. Members of Vietnam Veterans for Truth — and other Vietnam vets — will come by plane, by car, and by bus from New England and Florida, from the Midwest and all over.

When I spoke to organizer Larry Bailey, he said that about 5,000 men were expected at the rally. More than 500 have contributed to Vietnam Veterans for Truth in amounts as little as $2 and as much as $1000. Money was coming in, but the story needed to get out. As you'd expect, the Vietnam Veterans for Truth aren't getting any coverage in the papers or the network news. They need help spreading the word.

This rally may be bigger than its organizers anticipate. Because what they're protesting is not some vague moral principle: It's not, in the words of Vito Corleone, "only business." It's personal to men like Tony Snesko, Larry Bailey, Mike Bradley, Denny Baum, and Pete Webster. They were the men serving on the Swift boats, in the infantry. They were the ones who risked their lives, shot and were shot at, and were often wounded. They were the ones who saw their friends killed. What resonates so loudly in their minds is likely to reach many of the other Vietnam vets who don't remember Lt. (j.g.) John Kerry, and don't think much of Senator John Kerry — but who all remember John Kerry, leader of the radical Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

When Kerry accused Americans of raping, cutting off ears, heads, and limbs, and razing villages in the manner of Genghis Khan, he wasn't talking about some random "other": He was talking about these men. They and their fellow Vietnam veterans were — and are — innocent of the atrocities of which Kerry accused them. They can't forgive Kerry for what he said, or forget what they suffered because of it. They took Kerry's accusation personally. It would have been impossible for them to do otherwise. In Larry Bailey's words, "I never told a lie about John Kerry. He never told the truth about me."

Tony Snesko is a Swift-boat vet. He didn't know Kerry in Vietnam and — like the others I spoke to — doesn't want to debate Kerry's medals or combat experiences. Snesko says Kerry's testimony "put a plague on anyone that served in the war that would last the rest of our lives. ... I don't think there's any way to ever remove from us the stain ... [Kerry's] testimony about us being called rapists, child-killers and the like ... I don't know of anyone of the hundreds of Swift-boat guys that I know and Vietnam veterans that ever participated in any kind of atrocity."

Since the beginning of June, Snesko — with a handmade display of posters and papers mounted on a split U-Haul wardrobe box — has been spending his weekends sitting near the Vietnam War Memorial on the Mall in Washington, D.C. His display includes copies of Kerry's 1971 testimony, one of the fliers that Kerry's group — Vietnam Veterans Against the War — distributed on one of its marches, and the like. Snesko talks with hundreds of people each day. He shocks them by reading passages from Kerry's statements. Snesko says, "I change a lot of minds down there. ... It happens every hour or so when someone says, 'I didn't know that, I'm not voting for Kerry.'"

Mike Bradley had a lot of problems when he returned from Vietnam, and he thinks Kerry — and the rest of the anti-war crowd of those years — is responsible for them. He suffered discrimination against returning vets; for a time, he was even denied permission to date the lady who's now his wife because he was "one of those guys." Bradley remembers another Kerry libel against the Vietnam vets: that they were all alcoholics and drug addicts, and, as he told me, "we got that stink on us and that's what we lived with." Pete Webster is yet another Vietnam vet who blames Kerry for much of the suffering of returning soldiers: "If anyone got raped, it was the Vietnam vets who served honorably. Kerry is a serial rapist. He smeared us every day in the press, and raped us again, and again and again."

Denny Baum is totally disabled as a result of wounds received in Vietnam complicated by disease. Baum will never forgive Kerry for what he said and did in protesting the Vietnam War. "I want to do something to prevent a person with the character of John Kerry from becoming the president and commander-in-chief of this country." Baum remembers Kerry's Senate testimony: "He proceeded to tell my mom and dad, my sister ... everybody that I knew, the entire world, that I was a war criminal. And he said I intentionally murdered civilians, I raped women ... we looted and plundered. ... And he said that we did that on a day-to-day basis with full knowledge of our commanding officers. That is such a gigantic lie, he can never be forgiven for it. And the thing is that to this day he won't apologize. We've asked him to, and he won't."

This isn't about politics. Pete Webster told me, "If the GOP were running Hillary Clinton, we'd still be saying, 'Kerry lied.'" The Vietnam Vets for Truth want their reputations restored, and they want Kerry to apologize for more than 30 years of defaming their character. As they see it, Kerry stole their honor from them in 1971. They want it back — and they're coming to get it.



http://www.nationalreview.com/babbin/babbin200409080845.asp

Kerry wants an apology from the Swift Vets. What's new.

Besides the swift vets slander...

Fuck 'em. That's what I say. If anything, they owe Kerry an apology.

Fuck 'em. That's what I say. If anything, they owe Kerry an apology.

What for? (Just out of curiosity)

id tell them where to stick it

The SBVT are obviously biased. Instead, we should focus on the guy who's showing Bush's National Guard record. He isn't connected to the Kerry Campaign at all. :rolleyes:

i read what kerry said to the senate. (i was gonna post a link but my bookmark didnt take me anywhere)

i found it very moving and very true

the swiftboat vets wish they had fought in a different war but it was vietnam. our most stupid, useless, nasty war. i feel sorry that they had to suffer through it.

but that doesnt make kerry wrong.

he owes no one an apology for opposing that war.

What for? (Just out of curiosity)For the bullshit accusations about his service in Vietnam, every one of which has been refuted.

he owes no one an apology for opposing that war.

Agreed. But he does owe all the vets apologies for smearing them (most of them did not commit the crimes he spoke of; I personally know plenty of vets, and none of them committed those kinds of atrocities, nor did they witness any; they acknowledged that atrocities did occur, of course, but that they were rare, isolated instances).

id tell them where to stick it

LOL, best reply to the Swift Republican liars I saw.

In fairness, this Wikipedia entry is still not finalized because there is still discussion re: the neutrality of it, but....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth#Controversy

Also:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5810242/

The SBVT are obviously biased. Instead, we should focus on the guy who's showing Bush's National Guard record. He isn't connected to the Kerry Campaign at all. :rolleyes:
oh no, lets look at bush's actual record, when you are worried about just the record itself he obviously fucked up good. they actually have to LIE about kerry.

*pimp slaps "official property of bush propaganda machine" on your forehead*

We interrupt your program to bring you this breaking news: Susa is a dipshit who is deaf to reason and posts the same bullshit, which has been proven to be untrue, over and over!

Agreed. But he does owe all the vets apologies for smearing them (most of them did not commit the crimes he spoke of; I personally know plenty of vets, and none of them committed those kinds of atrocities, nor did they witness any; they acknowledged that atrocities did occur, of course, but that they were rare, isolated instances).He never said that all of the soldiers in Vietnam committed atrocities. He always limited his discussion of that to those people he had talked to and who had told him firsthand what had happened. Reread the testimony if you don't believe me, and post it here if I'm wrong. The smear that Kerry had accused all Vietnam vets of carrying out atrocities is, to the best of my knowledge, a crock, and nothing more than a Republican talking point.

He never said that all of the soldiers in Vietnam committed atrocities. He always limited his discussion of that to those people he had talked to and who had told him firsthand what had happened. Reread the testimony if you don't believe me, and post it here if I'm wrong. The smear that Kerry had accused all Vietnam vets of carrying out atrocities is, to the best of my knowledge, a crock, and nothing more than a Republican talking point.

My mistake. I'll reread it. Anyone have a link?

Eventually people are going to demand apologies from 12 year olds who, made a nasty joke. Look, Kerry shouldnt put so much emphasis on his Vietnam record and the SBVT should realise they arent helping anyone.

This happened a LONG time ago... so, why now is it such a big deal? Aren't there more important issues to focus on? :rolleyes:

This happened a LONG time ago... so, why now is it such a big deal? Aren't there more important issues to focus on? :rolleyes:
Clearly not.

My mistake. I'll reread it. Anyone have a link?
Here you go. (http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html)

How many vietnam vets were in vietnam? 4 million, I think? If only 1 in 1000 committed and atrocity, then that means 4,000 men committed atrocities. that's more than one atrocity per day for 10 years. Considering many were ordered to take part in no fire zones and village burnings (atrocities, according to the geneva convention) the number is probably higher. So yes, atrocities were happening on a daily basis. War sucks. War is evil. Anyone who paints it as a beautiful undertaking is probably a coward who has never seen war, and would run away from it if they found themselves in the middle of one.

I'm not saying War is never necessary, but it has to be an absolute last resort.

Not one of those men served with him, and they're airing a political ad that says that they did. It doesn't imply that they knew what they were talking about, it said that they did. The only problem is that a swiftboat only holds 2 or 3 men, and they stayed together for their tour of duty. The other men are lying, and they know it. Hell, they even added names to their petition without the consent of the men who hold those names.

Sounds fishy to me.

fact checking (http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244)

This isn't about politics. Pete Webster told me, "If the GOP were running Hillary Clinton, we'd still be saying, 'Kerry lied.'"

Is there any truth to this? Were they planning all of these demonstrations and such before Kerry announced he was running for president?

Even Jane Fonda apologized for her lies against Vietnam veterans. But don't expect Kerry to apologize, he is too proud and arrogant, and his entire career rested on his slander against his fellow Americans.

Even Jane Fonda apologized for her lies against Vietnam veterans. But don't expect Kerry to apologize, he is too proud and arrogant, and his entire career rested on his slander against his fellow Americans.
Did Bush ever apologize to McCain?

Fuck 'em. That's what I say. If anything, they owe Kerry an apology.
However, them asking for an apology positively demonstrates that they had a motive for their lies against Kerry. They are also probably trying to deflect all the negative crap that is happening in their lives since they opened their yaps?

However, them asking for an apology positively demonstrates that they had a motive for their lies against Kerry. They are also probably trying to deflect all the negative crap that is happening in their lives since they opened their yaps?

Looks like Kerry has been doing all the dodging lately ;)

Looks like Kerry has been doing all the dodging lately ;)
Well with any luck, this will all backfire on Bush and he can go back to playing with his oil stocks.

Looks like Kerry has been doing all the dodging lately ;)

I'd dodge too if people were flinging bullshit at me.

Well with any luck, this will all backfire on Bush and he can go back to playing with his oil stocks.

Unlikely. Historically, an incumbent with this kind of lead will not lose. This election is going to be very satisfying.

I'd dodge too if people were flinging bullshit at me.

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.

You have exactly ONE possible lie that is easily explained by his confusion with the Vietnamese holiday, since Kerry WAS IN CAMBODIA in jan or feb. You repeat and repeat and repeat this one not very important statement, as if it's the end all, be all of the election.

Meanwhile, Bush has been caught in multiple lies about his National Guard service, his DUI, he was investigated by the SEC, he overemphasized the connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda (and continues to do so.) He promised to look after then environment, and then betrayed that promise. He promised to hunt down Osama Bin Laden, dead or alive, and then gave, saying that he doesn't care about Osama anymore.

What kind of twisted sense of reality do you have, where one completely innocuous, bullshit, harmless little possible lie is more important that lies that have cast doubt on AMerica as a leading nation and has gotten over 1,000 of our military personnel killed and countless more injured? Where the fuck are your priorities? Are you insane? Are you a blithering idiot?

If I EVER see you compare that stupid bit of dirt on Kerry to the outrageous abuses of power and trust carried out by the Bush administration ever again, I will know that you hate America with a passion equal to those willing to kill themselves to be rid of us. There is no defense for your utter contempt for truth and decency.

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.

Then riddle me this, why did Kerry's key detractor and head of the swiftboat vets tell Nixon in a video we have now all seen that he too was in Cambodia, after most recently saying "No swiftboats ever went to Cambodia" yet in the old dug up video, he clearly say he was there. Does O'Neil's lies cancel out his credibility? I would have to say yes.

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.

Ok.

YOU MUST BE THE SLOW KID, RIGHT?

Im gonna say this one last time.

Several (especially now) NON-PARTISAN investigational groups, have researched this issue to DEATH.

Such as :

www.spinsanity.org
www. factcheck.org

You wanna guess what they say?

Thats right...they say theres NO truth for the "Veterans for truth".

Let me make that like unto the clearest crystal for you.

They say that the Veterans have no proof for thier claims.
They have found that thier story just doesnt add up.

They...are.....making...it..up.

They...are...liars.

Even Jane Fonda apologized for her lies against Vietnam veterans. But don't expect Kerry to apologize, he is too proud and arrogant, and his entire career rested on his slander against his fellow Americans.
because jane fonda did thigns that blatantly caused the death of US soldiers. all kerry did was testify before congress, which logic suggests was required of him

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.
stop posting, no really. i doubt you have even looked at the story. if you analyze it it looks suspicious all around, and not because its a lie, but because of the timing of when reagan actually stated there are no troops in cambodia.

Unlikely. Historically, an incumbent with this kind of lead will not lose. This election is going to be very satisfying.Hee hee--historically no incumbent in this weak of a position has ever gone on to win. Neck and neck with 8 weeks to go is no place to be when you're the guy in charge.

Unlikely. Historically, an incumbent with this kind of lead will not lose. This election is going to be very satisfying.
The good thing about history is that it is written on a daily basis. Personally speaking I like the underdog Kerry's chances.

it would be a slap in the face of history for bush to win. judging by how many historically winning factors kerry has on his side, it would take bush rigging the election to win, luckily he has been planning it for years...

Jane Fonda blatantly caused the death of soldiers?

They can shove this right down the Mekong delta. While Kerrys record is far from deserving the heroic medalfest he got for it(a silver star for shooting a fleeing teen in the back, WTF?), these guys are, like anyone else in the game, far down the Bush familys pockets.

From Democratic Underground ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/167.html )

*Alfred French, who signed an affidavit accusing John Kerry of exaggerating his war record, is in trouble after it was revealed that he didn't serve with Kerry and did not actually witness [ http://www.kval.com/x30530.xml?ParentPageID=x2649&ContentID=x46616&Layout=kval.xsl&AdGroupID=x30530 ] his behavior in Vietnam. Lying in affidavits is obviously not a good idea when you're a county prosecutor. Oh yes, he also got caught lying about an extra-marital affair.[ http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/109360837947360.xml ]

* After Ken Cordier's departure from Team Bush, it was the turn of Benjamin Ginsberg to quit [ http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,10572967%255E1702,00.html ] two weeks ago when it was revealed that not only was he a lawyer for George W. Bush's campaign, he was a lawyer for - surprise - Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

* Jim Russell (who, unlike the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth," was actually there the day that Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of the river) composed a stirring letter contradicting their story. "The picture I have in my mind of Kerry bending over from his boat picking some hapless guy out of the river while all hell was breaking loose around us, is a picture based on fact and it cannot be disputed or changed," he wrote. [ http://www.telluridegateway.com/articles/2004/08/20/news/opinion/opinion01.txt ]

* Larry Thurlow signed an affidavit accusing Kerry of lying about being under fire when he rescued Rassmann, saying "no return fire occurred.... I never heard a shot." This directly contradicts his own Bronze Star citation. [ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html ] But a third Bronze Star was awarded that day, to another Swift Boat skipper, Robert Lambert. Lambert's recently-released citation says that [ http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=1692 ] "all units came under small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks," and that Lambert "directed accurate suppressing fire at the enemy." The citation praises his "coolness, professionalism and courage under fire." Thurlow claims that Kerry faked the citations by falsely describing events to superior officers. But Kerry is not the eyewitness on Thurlow's citation - Lambert is. Can it be any more obvious that Thurlow is lying?

* John O'Neill has been making a big stink lately over whether John Kerry was in Cambodia or not during the Vietnam War. It appears that nobody - including Kerry - is really sure. But O'Neill - as usual - made himself look like a complete idiot by claiming [ http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/24/asb.00.html ]to CNN that he (O'Neill) had never been in Cambodia and in fact it was impossible to cross the border by river. Whoops! It turns out that O'Neill appears on an audio tape recorded in the Oval Office telling the complete opposite to Richard Nixon. O'NEILL: "I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water." NIXON: "In a swift boat?" O'NEILL: "Yes, sir." Ah, credibility. We hardly knew ye.

Here is a document that outlines the relationships of the Swift Boat Liars to the Bush Administration: http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2...WIFT_GRAPH.html

First: http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1121957/posts
You need to see PBS reference to John Kerry to read whole speech.

Apologize, Senator Kerry
Kerry stole the vets’ honor. And they’re coming to get it back.



Thirty years later, it still makes their blood boil. When, in April 1971, John Kerry testified to a Senate committee that "...war crimes committed in Southeast Asia [were] not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command," he said that the average American soldier who fought in Vietnam was a war criminal. Kerry's statement was false, a blood libel that hangs in the air to this day. If John Kerry had apologized, maybe he'd never have had to deal with the little group that calls itself "Vietnam Veterans for Truth."
Speech:
I would like to say for the record, and also for the men sitting behind me who are also wearing the uniforms and their medals, that my sitting here is really symbolic. I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of a group of 1,000, which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table, they would be here and have the same kind of testimony. I would simply like to speak in general terms. I apologize if my statement is general because I received notification [only] yesterday that you would hear me, and, I am afraid, because of the injunction I was up most of the night and haven't had a great deal of chance to prepare.

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit--the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that, at times, they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam,in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
end speech part one:
He said many Vets said they themselves were war criminals. I mean if Josh tells you he did something bad and you report it; you are not say he did it but Josh is. His statement was true so libel won't work in court. He did apologize for the harsh words he used later so looks like they lied to the public abnout Kerry lol.


A Martian observer at the Democratic Convention could have concluded that we won the Vietnam War, and did so because of John Kerry's bravery. He wouldn't know that there are really three John Kerrys: presidential candidate Lt. (j.g.) Kerry, radical anti-war protester Kerry, and Senator Kerry. If — as many now believe — Kerry lied about his war record, that's bad news for candidate Lt. Kerry. But if Lt. Kerry lied, he was lying about himself. For the common soldiers of the Vietnam War, anti-war radical Kerry lied about them in his Senate testimony. For that, they will neither forgive him nor sit idly while he pursues the presidency. And Candidate Kerry is about to have a very bad day: A whole bunch of those common soldiers Kerry purported to speak for on that April 1971 day are coming to Washington on September 12. They will rally under a banner that says, "Kerry lied while good men died."

Let me see the John kerry he says:
1) Senator Kerry
2) Anti crimes in Vietnam Kerry
3) Presidential Candidate
Kerry didn't lie about his war record... who cares if people thought he lied when he didn't? False pursecution means you are blessed in the biblwe for are you better than Jesus or the holy prophets? Nah, till the whole world turns against you, you will not have risen above them.
Anyway so that part is a crock lol.


That Sunday afternoon, hundreds — perhaps thousands — of Vietnam-era veterans will gather near the Capitol building to condemn Kerry for his 1971 libel, and for repeating those lies again and again in his political career. Members of Vietnam Veterans for Truth — and other Vietnam vets — will come by plane, by car, and by bus from New England and Florida, from the Midwest and all over.

When I spoke to organizer Larry Bailey, he said that about 5,000 men were expected at the rally. More than 500 have contributed to Vietnam Veterans for Truth in amounts as little as $2 and as much as $1000. Money was coming in, but the story needed to get out. As you'd expect, the Vietnam Veterans for Truth aren't getting any coverage in the papers or the network news. They need help spreading the word.

This rally may be bigger than its organizers anticipate. Because what they're protesting is not some vague moral principle: It's not, in the words of Vito Corleone, "only business." It's personal to men like Tony Snesko, Larry Bailey, Mike Bradley, Denny Baum, and Pete Webster. They were the men serving on the Swift boats, in the infantry. They were the ones who risked their lives, shot and were shot at, and were often wounded. They were the ones who saw their friends killed. What resonates so loudly in their minds is likely to reach many of the other Vietnam vets who don't remember Lt. (j.g.) John Kerry, and don't think much of Senator John Kerry — but who all remember John Kerry, leader of the radical Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

But he wasn't lying... if you aren't lying it isn't Libel! Courts say so!

When Kerry accused Americans of raping, cutting off ears, heads, and limbs, and razing villages in the manner of Genghis Khan, he wasn't talking about some random "other": He was talking about these men. They and their fellow Vietnam veterans were — and are — innocent of the atrocities of which Kerry accused them. They can't forgive Kerry for what he said, or forget what they suffered because of it. They took Kerry's accusation personally. It would have been impossible for them to do otherwise. In Larry Bailey's words, "I never told a lie about John Kerry. He never told the truth about me."

Tony Snesko is a Swift-boat vet. He didn't know Kerry in Vietnam and — like the others I spoke to — doesn't want to debate Kerry's medals or combat experiences. Snesko says Kerry's testimony "put a plague on anyone that served in the war that would last the rest of our lives. ... I don't think there's any way to ever remove from us the stain ... [Kerry's] testimony about us being called rapists, child-killers and the like ... I don't know of anyone of the hundreds of Swift-boat guys that I know and Vietnam veterans that ever participated in any kind of atrocity."

Tony didn't talk to Kerry's organistation who asked and investigated crimes done in Veitnam. So Tony can't be the one he was talking about.
Tony says its abiout him but he can't be involved if he didn't admit it.

Larry Bailey's either lying or he did the crimes and is angry that Kerry reported it. He says its about him so he must have told the investigation.

That is the important thing: Kerry said that those who did it did it on a day to day basis. If you didn't do it then why are you upset? If I punish a criminal how does that make you one?

Since the beginning of June, Snesko — with a handmade display of posters and papers mounted on a split U-Haul wardrobe box — has been spending his weekends sitting near the Vietnam War Memorial on the Mall in Washington, D.C. His display includes copies of Kerry's 1971 testimony, one of the fliers that Kerry's group — Vietnam Veterans Against the War — distributed on one of its marches, and the like. Snesko talks with hundreds of people each day. He shocks them by reading passages from Kerry's statements. Snesko says, "I change a lot of minds down there. ... It happens every hour or so when someone says, 'I didn't know that, I'm not voting for Kerry.'"

Mike Bradley had a lot of problems when he returned from Vietnam, and he thinks Kerry — and the rest of the anti-war crowd of those years — is responsible for them. He suffered discrimination against returning vets; for a time, he was even denied permission to date the lady who's now his wife because he was "one of those guys." Bradley remembers another Kerry libel against the Vietnam vets: that they were all alcoholics and drug addicts, and, as he told me, "we got that stink on us and that's what we lived with." Pete Webster is yet another Vietnam vet who blames Kerry for much of the suffering of returning soldiers: "If anyone got raped, it was the Vietnam vets who served honorably. Kerry is a serial rapist. He smeared us every day in the press, and raped us again, and again and again."


Mike blames Kerry like a Scapegoat. Its not Libel Mike read the rules of the courts. Sure, by reporting on the bad ones everyone got "raped", real mature guys...

Denny Baum is totally disabled as a result of wounds received in Vietnam complicated by disease. Baum will never forgive Kerry for what he said and did in protesting the Vietnam War. "I want to do something to prevent a person with the character of John Kerry from becoming the president and commander-in-chief of this country." Baum remembers Kerry's Senate testimony: "He proceeded to tell my mom and dad, my sister ... everybody that I knew, the entire world, that I was a war criminal. And he said I intentionally murdered civilians, I raped women ... we looted and plundered. ... And he said that we did that on a day-to-day basis with full knowledge of our commanding officers. That is such a gigantic lie, he can never be forgiven for it. And the thing is that to this day he won't apologize. We've asked him to, and he won't."

This isn't about politics. Pete Webster told me, "If the GOP were running Hillary Clinton, we'd still be saying, 'Kerry lied.'" The Vietnam Vets for Truth want their reputations restored, and they want Kerry to apologize for more than 30 years of defaming their character. As they see it, Kerry stole their honor from them in 1971. They want it back — and they're coming to get it.



http://www.nationalreview.com/babbin/babbin200409080845.asp

Sad that they lie at the end... its about politics.
They want honor that no one took away unless they were guilty...so huh?
They say that they blame Kerry because some people got confused and thought all vets did crimes?
Shouldn't you blame their confusion and not Kerry?
Denny is a crock he says he blames Kerry for his misunderstanding too.
How do the republicans confuse people and make them believe lies?

So let me get this straight.

Kerry honorably tesifies under oath to congress representing the stories of the men he is representing. Since Kerry is not arrested for lying to Congress, something even Clinton was investigated (impeached) for while he was President, then it must be concluded that Kerry spoke truthfully.

Now, according to the Swift Vets, this testimony was siezed upon and used as propaganda to further torment American soldiers.

So, the question remains, Why are the Swift Vets so eager to spread Vietnamese propaganda?

I must have got the Anti-Kerry group good, since they're being political girlie men-about answering my question.

Don't be political girlie-men!

So let me get this straight.

Kerry honorably tesifies under oath to congress representing the stories of the men he is representing. Since Kerry is not arrested for lying to Congress, something even Clinton was investigated (impeached) for while he was President, then it must be concluded that Kerry spoke truthfully.

Now, according to the Swift Vets, this testimony was siezed upon and used as propaganda to further torment American soldiers.

So, the question remains, Why are the Swift Vets so eager to spread Vietnamese propaganda?
i suspect they are pissed that they had to fight in vietnam instead of WW2
the poor guys got spit on when they got home, (if anyone noticed that they came home) when the ww2 guys got great big parades.

its enough to make an old soldier bitter

Swiftvets want an apology from Kerry
Swiftvets can go fuck themselves.

I'm going to keep reposting until I get a response from the Bush-lovers

when will the swiftboat vets apologize to the veitnamese people for being babykillers?
When will Cheney apoligize for exploiting terrorism for political and economic gain?
when will Bush apoligize for sacrificing 3000 american lives on 911?

when will the swiftboat vets apologize to the veitnamese people for being babykillers?
When will Cheney apoligize for exploiting terrorism for political and economic gain?
when will Bush apoligize for sacrificing 3000 american lives on 911?


While I appreciate your sentiment, let's not get off topic.

To sum up:

Kerry testified in front of Congress under oath. His words, though perhaps fired by the horrors seen by the men Kerry represented, were deemed truthful, since Kerry was not convicted of perjury or lying to Congress, and was not even formally investigated for such.

According to the Swift Vets, the Vietnamese siezed upon Kerry's impassioned pleas to end the war and the military approved breaking of the Geneva Convention, and used them as propaganda to futher demoralize, humiliate and torture American POW's.

I ask again, why are the Swift Vets so happy to spread Vietnamese propaganda?

Kerry's "Christmas 1968 in Cambodia" lie has already been exposed by the Swiftees. Kerry has been flinging that bullshit on Capitol Hill for the last three decades.

No, it's been verified in the voice of one of the main Swiftoids, in the Nixon Oval Office tapes.

No, it's been verified in the voice of one of the main Swiftoids, in the Nixon Oval Office tapes.
What he's not saying is that the descripancy is in the date, which somehow means something to them that the date was off....don't look at me, it's thier stretch they want to complain about. Seems stupid to me.

The Swift Boat Vets owe all of America an apology for contributing to the constant mudslinging we've had to endure this year.

The Swift Boat Vets owe all of America an apology for contributing to the constant mudslinging we've had to endure this year.
I wish I could say that I'm surprised by the mudslinging--I could be shocked, shocked! in the Casablanca model, but even that's a stretch.

The one thing that has surprised me is the powerful and at times vengeful nature of the counterstrikes by the Democrats this time around. We're famous for just sitting back and taking it, of "being above it all," but this time we've fought fire with fire, and while it may have raised the level of vitriol for the moment, it may be the only way we ever return to any sort of bipartisanship. Maybe if the two parties get so divisive that the electorate calls "a plague on both your houses," we'll get away from the sort of "purity tests" that both parties have been imposing on their candidates of late, especially in the House races.

I wish I could say that I'm surprised by the mudslinging--I could be shocked, shocked! in the Casablanca model, but even that's a stretch.

The one thing that has surprised me is the powerful and at times vengeful nature of the counterstrikes by the Democrats this time around. We're famous for just sitting back and taking it, of "being above it all," but this time we've fought fire with fire, and while it may have raised the level of vitriol for the moment, it may be the only way we ever return to any sort of bipartisanship. Maybe if the two parties get so divisive that the electorate calls "a plague on both your houses," we'll get away from the sort of "purity tests" that both parties have been imposing on their candidates of late, especially in the House races.
well its still only the republicans coducting interviews and making people sign loyalty oaths to see their speeches

You know how we can solve the Swiftvets issue?

Rapiers at five paces, Kerry vs. the nixon tape guy, winner is right, and alive

You know how we can solve the Swiftvets issue?

Rapiers at five paces, Kerry vs. the nixon tape guy, winner is right, and alive
Kerry will hack out John O'Neills forked blackened tung