NationStates Jolt Archive

I have seen many threads that are questioning Christianity, especially the transition from the Old Testament Law to the New Testament Faith. Many of the replies I have seen are completely false. I am not saying this from my view, but from scientific evidence and fact. There was a man named Josh McDowell who had a bad childhood due to an alcoholic and abusive father; because of his father and many other reasons, he thought that Christianity was a complete lie. When he went to college he met some Christians that challenged him to prove, scientifically, that Christianity is false. He agreed. After many years of research, he came to the conclusion that Christianity is one of the most scientifically backed beliefs in the world. This information led him to become a devoted Christian. Since then, he has written a book for college students, pastors, professors and laymen alike. This book, called "The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict” volumes 1 and 2, is filled with facts about Christianity. He gathers evidence from secular, Jewish, and Christian sources, most of the evidence is non-Christian. I ask that before anyone says anything as “fact” to please do your research. I highly recommend this book as a starting point.
Now as for Jesus and the Old Testament; the Law of Moses was God’s way of showing his people the difference from wrong and right. The Jews were brought up knowing the difference between wrong and right through the Law, and when someone tried to lead them astray (worshipping idols etc.), that someone was committing a blatant sin. Yes, killing someone seems very harsh, but we cannot question God. The culture in ancient times was very harsh compared to these times. Masters were allowed to kill there slaves for stealing an apple!
The Old Testament also has many prophetic books. The prophecies in these books are very detailed, and every one of the prophecies, details and all, have come true, including the ones concerning the Messiah. Jesus came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. We still have to obey God. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-20 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
I’m sure you thinking, “no one can surpass the scribes in righteousness”, and guess what, your right. We’re human beings; it is in our nature to sin because of our split with God in the Garden of Eden. That is why the Jews had to make sacrifices to God; they were repenting of their sins. Then Jesus came and was the ultimate sacrifice. That is why he is called the Lamb of God. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, He declares us free from sin. Now, accepting Jesus as your Savior is easy, but making Him Lord of your life is not. We have to go against our sinful nature and surrender control of our lives to God. Surrendering to God sounds dreadful, but when we surrender to God we don’t have to worry, He knows the future and what is best for us; He’ll take care of us. When we surrender, we get back some of that closeness we had with God before Adam and Eve sinned. In an attempt to keep this short :) , I ask that you look up the following verses for yourselves. Romans 3:9-31 Romans 8:35-39 Romans 10:9-13
I recommend that you read the entire Book of Romans. It explains many details about Old Testament Law and New Testament Faith. I also recommend the Scofield, New American Standard Bible, for a better understanding of the Scriptures and their translation from Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to English.

COuld you please help me find some scientific evidence that proves the existence of God as described in the bible?

This request is for nothing but my own convienience, but could you post portions of the scientific proof and/or evidence for the truth of christianity that you refer to? As I am not christian, I would probably never get around to looking it up on my own; whether christianity is true or false is not really my biggest concern. Thanks.

There was a man named Josh McDowell who had a bad childhood due to an alcoholic and abusive father; because of his father and many other reasons, he thought that Christianity was a complete lie.

Yeah, I've read some of McDowell's work. What he considers to be "scientific" evidence, I see only as supposition and misconstruction.

That is why the Jews had to make sacrifices to God; they were repenting of their sins. Then Jesus came and was the ultimate sacrifice. That is why he is called the Lamb of God.

And now we get to the biggest problem that I have with Christianity.

Many religions have sacrifice, either animal or human, as a basic tenet. When it comes to Christ dying on the cross, what we have is the moral equivalent of throwing a virgin into a volcano to appease the Fire God. Nothing more, nothing less.

I am not opposed to you believing what you want to believe; just don't try to convert me.

John 12:32

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Christs most inspired words I think.

Perhaps Christianity is feasible by modern science. I have no doubt that those events occured, personally. It is the fact that it is a very contradictory religion to the history it adheres to.

There are plenty of contradictions throughout the Bible and other Christian books. The Church has killed hundreds of innocents on charges of blood sacrifice and destroyed cultures for that practice. Yet their messiah was a blood sacrifice and there are many cases of blood sacrifice both animal and human. It teaches forgiveness, yet you burn in Hell for sinning, entire cultures were purged because they were sinful in nature to the Church.

It may be feasible and splendid, but look at it's history and the current. It is suppressing people through lobeying for banning of gay marriage. Tithes are regularily collected so the preisthood can line their pockets with gold. Preists convicted of pedophilia and child abuse related crimes were relocated. It is attempting to push itself on everyone and everything through subversion in governments.

Surrendering to God and stopping yourself from being sinful is basically comitting suicide. What joy is there in simply praying to a God that doesn't listen? Seriously, how many time are your prayers answered that couldn't be explained by science (not your dog coming home or your uncle recovering from a sickness)? Suppose something does happen that is miraculous, you don't know how it's done, how it happened. You are now dependant on that being to help you or someone else because you/they can't help your/himself. Being a tool because you can have no pride and must always be forgiving? Never stop working to enjoy life because being lazy is a sin? Giving away everything you own since being greedy is a sin? Being unable to defend yourself because that would be being wrathful? Surrendering to God is commiting spiritual suicide. Rejecting sin makes you weak, not strong.

Now as for Jesus and the Old Testament; the Law of Moses was God’s way of showing his people the difference from wrong and right. The Jews were brought up knowing the difference between wrong and right through the Law, and when someone tried to lead them astray (worshipping idols etc.), that someone was committing a blatant sin. Yes, killing someone seems very harsh, but we cannot question God.
Why not?

yes all thos epeople back then and sitll now makes mistakes, it's human nature. I for one is not even far from being considered a "good" chrsitian. I'm to this day dealign with the pornography. Sometimes nalso men feel that they ar ebieng led by God to do these things that most likely Satan worked in them and God allowed to happen.

Nothing happens without God knowing. God allowed Adolf Hitler to start the Halocaust, God allowed Bush to star a war in Iraq, He allowed all the previous presidents to be in office, God allowed all those children in Russia to die, God allowed 9/11.

The God is a angry God? Now he isn't, he's a loving God that cares for everyone.

Many men declared this batle for the Lord. Some in earnest some on a whim. But remember God allowed sin to enter the world.

and Arenethso, I feel such joy praying to my Father, prasing him. Such joy that I hope you could come to understand. Just talking to him, giving up my hurts, my pains, my sins to him. I know he's listening to me. If Christianity is a lie and i die and nothing happens, I think my life would not have been wasited cause spending my life as a Christian is th ebest thing that could of happen to me.

Drugs, sex, drinkingm gambling could do though, just temporaily fill a empty hole when Jesus can fill it with his Blood and Living Water.

On eof my best friends mom at church had extrmeely bad cancer and the doctors gave her less then a year to live (she's my moms best friend as well). She would not live to see ehr 50th birthday. We had hundreds of prayer chains going, through our church, the community, online, and email. And yo uknwo what...because of th eprayers and God's will, she is still with us and just a few weeks ago celebrated her 50th birthday and we threw a huge party for her. It was very emotional. She still has cancer but not as bad and science sure helped her overcome it but with out God's handd on it, she would be dead by now.

There was a speaker I was saw at a convention and he was telling the power of prayer. He's a leader in his church. One mother brought in her son who had a crippled leg. They brought out the boy and prayed for him. As soon as they prayed, his leg straightned out right before them and he began to walk. I dont know of any scientific explanation for that but only that was work of God. Another was a new born baby who was full of cancerous tumor. They prayed over her body andth enext day, there was no sign of them and the doctors were baffeled. God is still with us and nothing happens without hsi hand on it.

Im not sure if what I said made any sense to you or had some effect but I didn't speak from myself but God was speaking through me to you.

Why not?

It's perfectly normal to question God. Everyone does. But our doubts about God are fed by Satan and are of sinful nature.

But then again huamns are naturally sinful. So it's perfectly normal to question Him and His will, He will supply your answer if He wants to.

I’m sure you thinking, “no one can surpass the scribes in righteousness”, and guess what, your right. We’re human beings; it is in our nature to sin because of our split with God in the Garden of Eden. That is why the Jews had to make sacrifices to God; they were repenting of their sins. Then Jesus came and was the ultimate sacrifice. That is why he is called the Lamb of God. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, He declares us free from sin. Now, accepting Jesus as your Savior is easy, but making Him Lord of your life is not. We have to go against our sinful nature and surrender control of our lives to God. Surrendering to God sounds dreadful, but when we surrender to God we don’t have to worry, He knows the future and what is best for us; He’ll take care of us. When we surrender, we get back some of that closeness we had with God before Adam and Eve sinned. In an attempt to keep this short :) , I ask that you look up the following verses for yourselves. Romans 3:9-31 Romans 8:35-39 Romans 10:9-13

This is all *completely* unscientific. In fact, never mind unscientific, parts of it are philosophically debateable. Stating that "it is in our nature to sin" is making a very large fundamental assumption about human nature, and the evidence it is grounded in is scientifically false (There is plenty of verified evidence for the big bang as opposed to the creationist story).

Isn't it interesting how a Christian can become free of sin and live an apparently righteous life just by doing whatever Jesus says (or whatever they want to pick out of the bible, modern Christians don't live according to what the bible actually says, they follow the contemporary socially acceptable parts)? The Chrisitan doesn't have to make any of the very complex moral decisions that an agnostic or atheist has to, they simply follow dogma. Doesn't mindlessly following dogma seem to you to be less worthwhile (and arguably morally wrong) than making complex individual rational choices about ethical issues? Surely the exercise of reason is a valuable thing?

It's perfectly normal to question God. Everyone does. But our doubts about God are fed by Satan and are of sinful nature.
But then again huamns are naturally sinful. So it's perfectly normal to question Him and His will, He will supply your answer if He wants to.Who is this god, and who is Satan? I suppose you don't even know where "Satan" comes from.
...Christianity is one of the most scientifically backed beliefs in the world.That's a plain lie, because science never backs any beliefs. Science can only provide information, but it cannot of course make any thelogical judgements.

On eof my best friends mom at church had extrmeely bad cancer and the doctors gave her less then a year to live (she's my moms best friend as well). She would not live to see ehr 50th birthday. We had hundreds of prayer chains going, through our church, the community, online, and email. And yo uknwo what...because of th eprayers and God's will, she is still with us and just a few weeks ago celebrated her 50th birthday and we threw a huge party for her. It was very emotional. She still has cancer but not as bad and science sure helped her overcome it but with out God's handd on it, she would be dead by now.

What about all the people that die despite efforts such as this? You cunningly forget to mention these. My girlfriends mum died of cancer recently. Why didn't mr. god save her? Why does god randomly kill many many lovely people all the time? Why does god ruin society with crime? If god actually exists, he/she/it is a complete moron, and is not worthy of my praise.

Isn't it interesting how a Christian can become free of sin and live an apparently righteous life just by doing whatever Jesus says (or whatever they want to pick out of the bible, modern Christians don't live according to what the bible actually says, they follow the contemporary socially acceptable parts)?

For one thing, it's not like "Jsus Says" and we do. I do stuff I know God wouldn't like me to do do but it's sinful nature to do so otherwise.

Chrisitian who has ACCEPTED Christ as thier savior are saved from enetrnal damnation. With thier heart. Thiers to many "chrisitans" goign around saying they are just to save face. Thats why Jesus died on the cross.

I know some christian groups believe in some of the bible or parts of the bible. But thats a false statement that ALL Christians. I know plenty of denominations that believe in the entire Bible. I for one believe in the entire Bible and everything in there is the truth.

And now we get to the biggest problem that I have with Christianity.

Many religions have sacrifice, either animal or human, as a basic tenet. When it comes to Christ dying on the cross, what we have is the moral equivalent of throwing a virgin into a volcano to appease the Fire God. Nothing more, nothing less.
I respectfully disagree. Sacrificing the virgin is a different symbol than sacrificing the son of the virgin and leaving the virgin intact to be exalted to a godhood of her own. Entirely different symbolism, there.

What about all the people that die despite efforts such as this? You cunningly forget to mention these. My girlfriends mum died of cancer recently. Why didn't mr. god save her? Why does god randomly kill many many lovely people all the time? Why does god ruin society with crime? If god actually exists, he/she/it is a complete moron, and is not worthy of my praise.

Im terribly sorry to hear that happened. And personally, know one knows the will of God (defiently not me). All I can say He allowed that to happen. I don't know why God allows one person to die and than the other not to die. It's his will an dno one can tell what it will be.

an dI did not "cunnigly" avoid it. I didnt think of adding that in there and your post brought my attention to that subject.

For one thing, it's not like "Jsus Says" and we do. I do stuff I know God wouldn't like me to do do but it's sinful nature to do so otherwise.

Chrisitian who has ACCEPTED Christ as thier savior are saved from enetrnal damnation. With thier heart. Thiers to many "chrisitans" goign around saying they are just to save face. Thats why Jesus died on the cross.

I know some christian groups believe in some of the bible or parts of the bible. But thats a false statement that ALL Christians. I know plenty of denominations that believe in the entire Bible. I for one believe in the entire Bible and everything in there is the truth.Then either you are very young or very uneducated.

I don't know why God allows one person to die and than the other not to die. It's his will an dno one can tell what it will be.

I dont understand then...why do you actually worship this god? If you are happy to admit that god allows terrible things to happen, apparantly on a random will, then I really dont understand why you find god worthy of worship. Why not worship Hitler? Or Jack the Ripper?

To ankers post, I'm 19 and personaly I dont think I'm qualified enough to represent God. Like said I'm far from being even considered a "good" christian. My knoweldge of the Bible, Scriptures and such is very limited. But I can't sit idly on my butt when I could somehow make a difference.

And to Cigalle, it's not a random will. Not like God picks someone and decides to kill them. One thing I know thiers a reason behind why God does stuff. One of my close friends died last year and he was a well known christian at school. Because of his death and testimony, 10 people cam eto Christ. I questione dand even cursed God for taking him away but I found out thats hwy he did so more people can be saved. But like I said before, I can't even comprehend the will of God.

Why I wroship him...something I havnt asked myself deeply. He is worthy of worship because He made me and loves me. And my gift to God (even though I'm sooo not worth th eprice of hi Son) is my praise and worship. It might not seem much but God cares for everyone of my needs and loves my praises.

Remember God cares for even the hurt little sparrow that falls on the ground.

Remember God cares for even the hurt little sparrow that falls on the ground.

Just not enough to do anything about it.

Just not enough to do anything about it.

so you're saying God is limited?

God allows children to die, allows people to suffer with illness, allows war to happen....God does this....God does that....what a sadist God is!! Whatever gave you the idea that God is the source of evil and suffering? Remember his most beautiful angel, Satan? He's the source of evil...not God. God is the salvation.

To ankers post, I'm 19 and personaly I dont think I'm qualified enough to represent God. Like said I'm far from being even considered a "good" christian. My knoweldge of the Bible, Scriptures and such is very limited. But I can't sit idly on my butt when I could somehow make a difference.

And to Cigalle, it's not a random will. Not like God picks someone and decides to kill them. One thing I know thiers a reason behind why God does stuff. One of my close friends died last year and he was a well known christian at school. Because of his death and testimony, 10 people cam eto Christ. I questione dand even cursed God for taking him away but I found out thats hwy he did so more people can be saved. But like I said before, I can't even comprehend the will of God.

Why I wroship him...something I havnt asked myself deeply. He is worthy of worship because He made me and loves me. And my gift to God (even though I'm sooo not worth th eprice of hi Son) is my praise and worship. It might not seem much but God cares for everyone of my needs and loves my praises.

Remember God cares for even the hurt little sparrow that falls on the ground.What books have you read in your life so far? And what languages have you learned?

What books have you read in your life so far? And what languages have you learned?

well I've read alot of war books....mostly from WWII To many to count. I've read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Samarillion more times then I can count.

I've read a few Christian books (Piercing the Darkness, This Prsent Darkness) an dsome others such as a account froma missionary and...thats bout it

this will proably hurt my credibility but I have learned no languages save bits and pieces. I have a learning disability in both man and a tiny bit in english a while ago but I'm better now (heck im in advanced english college class lol). TYhey said "I'm not intellegent enough in english to take a foreign language".

I know some words and phrases in Japanese and some words in Elvish. lol

God allows children to die, allows people to suffer with illness, allows war to happen....God does this....God does that....what a sadist God is!! Whatever gave you the idea that God is the source of evil and suffering? Remember his most beautiful angel, Satan? He's the source of evil...not God. God is the salvation.Please stop referring to Yahweh/Elohim simply as god. The concept of divinity is not limited to Christianity or Judaism.

And BTW: who created the one you name Satan? And who knew beforehand every single deed the one you name Satan would commit?

well I've read alot of war books....mostly from WWII To many to count. I've read The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, and The Samarillion more times then I can count.

I've read a few Christian books (Piercing the Darkness, This Prsent Darkness) an dsome others such as a account froma missionary and...thats bout it

this will proably hurt my credibility but I have learned no languages save bits and pieces. I have a learning disability in both man and a tiny bit in english a while ago but I'm better now (heck im in advanced english college class lol). TYhey said "I'm not intellegent enough in english to take a foreign language".

I know some words and phrases in Japanese and some words in Elvish. lolOh, you read the Silmarillion? So what do say about the concept of divine providence that is developed there?
The Tolkienion (http://www.tolkienion.com/)

God created the angels. Satan aka Lucifer was the most buetiful and excellent of all the angels. Well yo uknow the story of hiss downfall and the apple and when sin enetered into the world.

And now we get to the biggest problem that I have with Christianity.
Many religions have sacrifice, either animal or human, as a basic tenet. When it comes to Christ dying on the cross, what we have is the moral equivalent of throwing a virgin into a volcano to appease the Fire God. Nothing more, nothing less.


I never really thought of that way before. The difference between a virgin and Christ is that Christ didn't die to appease God he died to allow us (human race) to have a relationship with God through Him (Christ). the reason for sacrifices goes back to Genesis where Adam and Eve sinned. Sin separates us from God and requires death as punishment. Because life is in the blood (you can't live without blood) innocent blood can be shed to take our place.
because Christ lived a perfect life he was able to pay for all sins past present, future.

Oh, you read the Silmarillion? So what do say about the concept of divine providence that is developed there?
The Tolkienion (http://www.tolkienion.com/)
what do I say about it? (sorry i ddint look at thelink and my AOL/DSL is acting slow today and i wanted to reply, ill check it out later).

Personally I find it intresting as mkuch as I find any other rleigion intresting. I dont condemn other religions. I don't think they are right but I dont condemn them.

As for what Tolkien created with the Valar (Manwe being the mos thigh Valar) I see nothing wrong with it. Nor do I think Tolkien did. I dont think Tolkien meant it to be taken seriously that it has it's own tehology. I think he just created a story but that story has gone deeper and deeper.

So personally I do not dondemn it nor agree with it. I find it harmless and a rather intresting read :)

BTW i study cults and other religions so thats why i find it intresting.

It's perfectly normal to question God. Everyone does. But our doubts about God are fed by Satan and are of sinful nature.

But then again huamns are naturally sinful. So it's perfectly normal to question Him and His will, He will supply your answer if He wants to.
But this doesn't answer my question: why can we not question God?

But this doesn't answer my question: why can we not question God?

i didnt say we couldn't the other person did. It's normal to question God.

what do I say about it? (sorry i ddint look at thelink and my AOL/DSL is acting slow today and i wanted to reply, ill check it out later).

Personally I find it intresting as mkuch as I find any other rleigion intresting. I dont condemn other religions. I don't think they are right but I dont condemn them.

As for what Tolkien created with the Valar (Manwe being the mos thigh Valar) I see nothing wrong with it. Nor do I think Tolkien did. I dont think Tolkien meant it to be taken seriously that it has it's own tehology. I think he just created a story but that story has gone deeper and deeper.

So personally I do not dondemn it nor agree with it. I find it harmless and a rather intresting read :)

BTW i study cults and other religions so thats why i find it intresting.So if you find other religions intersting, what have you learned from other religions about your own perception of the world?

It's perfectly normal to question God. Everyone does. But our doubts about God are fed by Satan and are of sinful nature.

But then again huamns are naturally sinful. So it's perfectly normal to question Him and His will, He will supply your answer if He wants to.

More Christisn crap.

There is no god. There is no satan. There is no heaven. There is no hell.
All you do wrong in life is Your fault alone.
All you do right in life is Your fault alone.

Get over it and get used to it.

Stop Blaming someone mythical for all your problems and accept your goodness as yours alone.

This is the only truth that is needed to live life.

Peace Be

the Grokdoc

So if you find other religions intersting, what have you learned from other religions about your own perception of the world?

all humans are inheritantly sinful and dont deserve a second chance
some people create religions so that they feel secure
and most religions don't offer salvation

well it sbeen fun but i need to get going
i have some school work i need to get done

its been fun chatting about this subject...I learned soem stuff and I hope you did to.

I never really thought of that way before. The difference between a virgin and Christ is that Christ didn't die to appease God he died to allow us (human race) to have a relationship with God through Him (Christ). the reason for sacrifices goes back to Genesis where Adam and Eve sinned. Sin separates us from God and requires death as punishment. Because life is in the blood (you can't live without blood) innocent blood can be shed to take our place.
because Christ lived a perfect life he was able to pay for all sins past present, future.

Of course he died to appease Jehovah. That's much of the basis of early Judaism: You anger God (only one of many Gods, according to the Torah) through your imperfection, you sacrifice an animal without blemish, you appease the Lord, he gives you prosperity and many descendants. Jesus was supposedly the ultimate animal without blemish, the "Lamb Of God." Same thing.

I never really thought of that way before. The difference between a virgin and Christ is that Christ didn't die to appease God he died to allow us (human race) to have a relationship with God through Him (Christ). the reason for sacrifices goes back to Genesis where Adam and Eve sinned. Sin separates us from God and requires death as punishment. Because life is in the blood (you can't live without blood) innocent blood can be shed to take our place.
because Christ lived a perfect life he was able to pay for all sins past present, future.What? You have never thought that the sacrifice of Jesus had the sole purpose to unmake the sin of First Man? And that he was (allegedly) sent to re-create the original state of humankind that had no intermediary between man and god? Oh, that reminds me: do you recall the hour when Jesus died? Mark 15:38 "The veil of the temple was torn in two from the top to the bottom", "veil" being the understatement of the epoch. You surely recognize what this was supposed to mean: that there was now no more separation between the people and the holiest part of the temple, the "residence" of god.