NationStates Jolt Archive

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRFnuJnCV4lA&refer=europe
This is the first step of any solution: recognition. You know how human rights groups complain about wanton killing by Russian troops in Chechnya? It's starting to sound like that those orders rarely, if ever, come from the Kremlin. Oh, these Russian troops do a lot behind everyone's back: sell arms, take bribes, and what many experts suspect (and I pray this isn't true) is that some officers sell WMDs on the black market. Hopefully, the Kremlin can succeed with reforming the security forces.

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http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=aRFnuJnCV4lA&refer=europe
This is the first step of any solution: recognition. You know how human rights groups complain about wanton killing by Russian troops in Chechnya? It's starting to sound like that those orders rarely, if ever, come from the Kremlin. Oh, these Russian troops do a lot behind everyone's back: sell arms, take bribes, and what many experts suspect (and I pray this isn't true) is that some officers sell WMDs on the black market. Hopefully, the Kremlin can succeed with reforming the security forces.
Yep. That tends to happen when the soldiers are paid a monthly salary of roughly 80 Euros. And have to take second jobs as harvesters, car mechanics etc... while beeing deployed near hostile ground. When they are beeing payd at all.

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I thought you were talking about the US government for a moment ...

:mp5:

Yep. That tends to happen when the soldiers are paid a monthly salary of roughly 80 Euros. When they are beeing payd at all.
That much? I thought it'd be far less.
It's ironic how a once-great military can turn to this. I know why it happened, but it happened at dizzying speeds. I feel that the industrialized world, and the US in particular, should send military aid to Russia, so they can modernize their army, and devout more resources to their economy. Russia is far too vital of an ally in the GWOT for any of us to loose.

That much? I thought it'd be far less.
Officially. But in reality they aren't getting payed at a regular basis.

Officially. But in reality they aren't getting payed at a regular basis.
I've heard that the navy is supposed to be the worst of any branches. For one, they have to scrap many of their ships. The sailors tend not to be well fed, and the shipboard housing is inadequate. The submarines are supposed to be the worst of the worst. It was probably a result of human error from poor training that the Kursk, the most advanced submarine ever built, sunk on its maiden voyage.

I thought you were talking about the US government for a moment ...

:mp5:
Only the troop bases in Australia :).

all the people in power in russia were ex-soviets who still think they can do whatever they like, which in many respects they can do whatever they like..for instance putin is an ex KGB agent and all the russian generals were ex soviet generals (probably think they are still soviet generals). the democracy is in shambles and its president is almost a dictatorial tribal leader among many soviet general warlords. the people's lives have really not improved that much and the poor have gotten fat on western junk foods since the collapse but are still almost just as ignorant. the mafia also has great power (my sis was friends with a mafia man's daughter.. don't ask)

TBH its a no brainer.. it is corrupt, you don't need to say it! lol

I've heard that the navy is supposed to be the worst of any branches. For one, they have to scrap many of their ships. The sailors tend not to be well fed, and the shipboard housing is inadequate. The submarines are supposed to be the worst of the worst. It was probably a result of human error from poor training that the Kursk, the most advanced submarine ever built, sunk on its maiden voyage.
I think it's also a severe lack of maintanance.

I think it's also a severe lack of maintanance.
Oh, of course. But this just goes to show how little the Russians can now do with their military.

It is all due to democracy, in USSR to us was lived better... Much better.

I've thought they were corrupt for some time now

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm
Here's a listing of the countries that fund the most into their militaries. We can argue back and forth that China has a bigger military than Russia, and that's partially true. China, however, probably finds enough boys that are happy to get $10/month or so. After all, it's out of a pool of 1.3 billion people. Russia has a more advanced military by far. China has little navy to speak of, but Russia is struggling to keep its navy afloat. China has far less nukes to maintain than Russia. And China just has to focus its military on scaring Taiwan every few years, whereas Russia's has a lot to do. They are the biggest country on the planet, being nearly twice the size of their distant second, Canada. Yet Russia has to maintain garrisons in other countries as well.

I've thought they were corrupt for some time now
They were always corrupt, but the Kremlin didn't dare admit it. They have yet to realize that the Cold War is over.

You know... Democracy doesn't always work.

And NATO will disband?

And NATO will disband?
I see you are serious about democracy not working. In a way, you are correct. By itself, democracy can't work. But there are critical errors that trace all the way back to Gorbachev: too much glasnost, not enough perestroika.
You see, for any successful liberal democracy, like the US, Japan, and much of Europe, there are three pillars: democracy, economic freedom, and the rule of law. What order they come in is important. In both the US and Britain, for example, the rule of law came first, followed by economic freedom, then democracy. That's the best order, although others can work. It was the opposite in Russia: democracy, then economic freedom, but the rule of law is just starting to appear. It creates an anything goes society, which is why the Russian economy is like the Wild West. It just means Russia got off to a bad start, but they can recover, especially since the Russian economy is starting to improve greatly. It's certainly better than 1998.

BTW, NATO has other reasons to exist asside Russia. As one British diplomat once said, NATO is to "keep the Americans in, the Germans down, and the Russians out". It'll be reformed, but it doesn't need to be disbanded.

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And NATO will disband?
I hope to see it happen in my lifetime.

I've heard that the navy is supposed to be the worst of any branches. For one, they have to scrap many of their ships. The sailors tend not to be well fed, and the shipboard housing is inadequate. The submarines are supposed to be the worst of the worst. It was probably a result of human error from poor training that the Kursk, the most advanced submarine ever built, sunk on its maiden voyage.

but then, you must understand that russia had always been a continental power (before), that is, they rely on more on their armies, and thay have had embarassing defeat with their navies

but then, you must understand that russia had always been a continental power (before), that is, they rely on more on their armies, and thay have had embarassing defeat with their navies
I know that they've been traditionally a land power, and it probably suits them best for today. They just need a coast guard like navy to protect their shores and ports.
But it's amazing how it declined, especially their submarine fleet. It used to be the largest in the world, and the most fearsome. Now it's just a few peices of metal that can go underwater, and barely fight.

You know quite frankly im shoked at what i have read. Especially coming form people that seemed relatively educated.
I understand that Russia bashing is fun. I'm one of the first to laugh at commi bastard or drunken bear jokes, but this stuff is just disgusting.
There was a terrible tragedy, and, although some alterations may have been made, most likely, there was no way to prevent it. As for Corruption in Security Forces... yea! wow. there's the surprise of the year!. "Part of the russian government/beurocracy are corrupt!".... The only amazing thing about it is that they admit it, unlike the rest of the world.
I can't beleive all that talk about how no one gets paid enough, and everything is low quality, and everything that is or has to do with russia is in a shithole. I mean, really! Grow up. Thats the oldest propoganda i can think of. And you say Russia thinks its in the Cold War.
As for the 80 euro's a day thing... theres a reason Russia has little/no interest in switching to euros, and u probably just stumbled across it.Hey, did u ever stop to wonder how much food costs, or rent.... U really should figure the proportions of people's salaries. I'm not saying their wages shouldn't be higher, it is a problem, but practically everything you people have said so far is an enormous insult to the Russian people.

A lot of what has been said is based in fact... that is the way it always is... but the vast majority is just plain stupid.
You wonder why other people hate Americans... maybe its because, despite all their high talk, they really have never learned to think before they speak and eat up propoganda just as fast as their Mcdonalds extra value meals.

You know quite frankly im shoked at what i have read. Especially coming form people that seemed relatively educated.
I understand that Russia bashing is fun. I'm one of the first to laugh at commi bastard or drunken bear jokes, but this stuff is just disgusting.
There was a terrible tragedy, and, although some alterations may have been made, most likely, there was no way to prevent it. As for Corruption in Security Forces... yea! wow. there's the surprise of the year!. "Part of the russian government/beurocracy are corrupt!".... The only amazing thing about it is that they admit it, unlike the rest of the world.
I can't beleive all that talk about how no one gets paid enough, and everything is low quality, and everything that is or has to do with russia is in a shithole. I mean, really! Grow up. Thats the oldest propoganda i can think of. And you say Russia thinks its in the Cold War.
As for the 80 euro's a day thing... theres a reason Russia has little/no interest in switching to euros, and u probably just stumbled across it.Hey, did u ever stop to wonder how much food costs, or rent.... U really should figure the proportions of people's salaries. I'm not saying their wages shouldn't be higher, it is a problem, but practically everything you people have said so far is an enormous insult to the Russian people.

A lot of what has been said is based in fact... that is the way it always is... but the vast majority is just plain stupid.
You wonder why other people hate Americans... maybe its because, despite all their high talk, they really have never learned to think before they speak and eat up propoganda just as fast as their Mcdonalds extra value meals.
It's not propaganda. Russia's military has rapidly declined since the breakup of the Soviet Union, and quite frankly, that's scary. Now it's coming with consequences that may complicate the global situation.
BTW, it's not uncommon to find an underpaid military, even in the richest of nations. During the Vietnam War, US privates recieved about $1/day in salary, including room and board. That's just about $30/month, which was very low even by the day's standards.And that, btw, is just $5.67 inflation adjusted, which is probably even lower than what the Russians currently get paid, anyhow.