NationStates Jolt Archive

I am ashamed to admit this, but I once was a supporter of Chechen independence. I once looked upon it as similar to that of the IRA or the ETA, equated it with resistance to the Nazis.

What a fool I was.

I have never been so shocked by any terrorist attack as the butchering that occured those days ago. The only way those scum could fall any lower in my regard would be if they had raped the children before butchering them. In the interests of common humanity and fellow feeling, my entire support (for what it's worth) is behind Russian President Vladimir Putin. I no longer care.

If Putin decides to call in the entire military might of the CIS to obliterate Chechen society and culture, he has my support. If Putin places the entire 'republic' under federal rule and then shuts it down to all outsiders, my feelings will be 'at least no more Arabs can get in.' If he starts wearing a Stalin moustache, or reactivates the Okrahna, I will say 'well, at least we now know his inspiration.' Hell, if he starts to wear a Hitler moustache and talks about a 'Final Solution' to the 'Chechen Problem', I'll be the very last person you'll see protesting outside the Russian Embassy. He was right to say that this is International Terrorism more than Chechens, of course. According to current data, half of the terrorists were Arabs. My opinion on Arabs in general is, as is widely known, already rather low. (Though, I hasten to add, it's a hatred of Arabs in General. I rather like some Arabs, in Specifi)

Don't get me wrong. I know that there are untold millions of Arabs which are deeply appalled by this action. I know some of them personally. But I am equally aware that a large, vocal minority not only supports this horrific outrage, but also helped to perpetrate it. This leaves one course of action clear, and I think I already mentioned it.

The borders of this Chechen 'republic' must be sealed. The Arab terrorists are coming from the south, and they are the root cause of many of the current troubles.

I say this because, as many people already can see, the entire thing is a theatre of the Absurd. Chechnya is no more viable as an independent state than Delaware!...no, I take that back. Delaware has lots of arable land. Chechnya already enjoys considerable autonomy, and its people are generally secure from being left to die. An independent Chechen republic would be full of people who had no money, no food, and no real security either.

And you know what? If they're that desperate for independence, Putin could always give it to them. Then immediately secure the Russian territories around it and send forces in to secure the borders to the south. Let them starve.

puting has a major image problem. He has spent so long building himself up as a macho tough guy that he cant back down. This will only result in more carnage.

I am ashamed to admit this, but I once was a supporter of Chechen independence. I once looked upon it as similar to that of the IRA or the ETA, equated it with resistance to the Nazis.

What a fool I was.

I have never been so shocked by any terrorist attack as the butchering that occured those days ago. The only way those scum could fall any lower in my regard would be if they had raped the children before butchering them. In the interests of common humanity and fellow feeling, my entire support (for what it's worth) is behind Russian President Vladimir Putin. I no longer care.

If Putin decides to call in the entire military might of the CIS to obliterate Chechen society and culture, he has my support. If Putin places the entire 'republic' under federal rule and then shuts it down to all outsiders, my feelings will be 'at least no more Arabs can get in.' If he starts wearing a Stalin moustache, or reactivates the Okrahna, I will say 'well, at least we now know his inspiration.' Hell, if he starts to wear a Hitler moustache and talks about a 'Final Solution' to the 'Chechen Problem', I'll be the very last person you'll see protesting outside the Russian Embassy. He was right to say that this is International Terrorism more than Chechens, of course. According to current data, half of the terrorists were Arabs. My opinion on Arabs in general is, as is widely known, already rather low. (Though, I hasten to add, it's a hatred of Arabs in General. I rather like some Arabs, in Specifi)

Don't get me wrong. I know that there are untold millions of Arabs which are deeply appalled by this action. I know some of them personally. But I am equally aware that a large, vocal minority not only supports this horrific outrage, but also helped to perpetrate it. This leaves one course of action clear, and I think I already mentioned it.

The borders of this Chechen 'republic' must be sealed. The Arab terrorists are coming from the south, and they are the root cause of many of the current troubles.

I say this because, as many people already can see, the entire thing is a theatre of the Absurd. Chechnya is no more viable as an independent state than Delaware!...no, I take that back. Delaware has lots of arable land. Chechnya already enjoys considerable autonomy, and its people are generally secure from being left to die. An independent Chechen republic would be full of people who had no money, no food, and no real security either.

And you know what? If they're that desperate for independence, Putin could always give it to them. Then immediately secure the Russian territories around it and send forces in to secure the borders to the south. Let them starve.
Hey, did you just insult Delaware!

Hey, did you just insult Delaware!
*cracks knuckles*

Jimmy Bob, I think that thar poor fool just did!

No flames meant

*cracks knuckles*

Jimmy Bob, I think that thar poor fool just did!

No flames meant
No no no, that's southern Delaware.

puting has a major image problem. He has spent so long building himself up as a macho tough guy that he cant back down. This will only result in more carnage.

Putin also has his rights to claim to be a macho tough guy. The man works weights and ran the KGB. He's probably one of the fittest national leaders on Earth today. Also, he has lots and lots of shiny weapons. He isn't posturing. He's being him.

Putin also has his rights to claim to be a macho tough guy. The man works weights and ran the KGB. He's probably one of the fittest national leaders on Earth today. Also, he has lots and lots of shiny weapons. He isn't posturing. He's being him.
Yeah, but he needs to lay off it, especially after his takedown of Yukos (scary), he's looking like a tin-pot dictator in the making.

More like a Tsar in the making, one thinks. Putin has the bloodline (possibly, never been proven either way. But he looks remarkably like Grand Duke Michael) and the political support. No matter what, Putin isn't going to be some 'tin-pot' dictator. If he does declare himself to be some sort of dictator, he'd either follow the Francisco Franco route or be an absolutist monarch.

And you know what? If it solves the Chechen problem, more power to him.

Theres another side to every story.

I support a Chechen Republic, even if i dont think that killing children is the right way to get it. The Chechens have also been terrorized by the russians. I consider the recent attacks on russia Payback. If the Chechnyans want a contry, let them have it. More will die if russia doesent. The Chechnyans will just have to deal with thier problems on thier own.

What can you honestly expect from a secessionist movement? If you want to break an area away from a nation or overthrow the government in general, your people can't become part of the political process, especially in Chechnya (same is true in other countries like Colombia). If they become a visible element in society, they get killed for their radical beliefs. Even if no one kills them, they stand little chance of winning because people like Putin have such strong ties to the corporations and the media that they wouldn't get fair treatment in the election.

Same is true in regards to the funding of secessionist movements. Usually they must resort to illegal means to fund themselves, such as growing or selling drugs. After all, not only do illegal operations have greater profit margins, legitimate businesses have a tendency to get shut down a lot easier by the government one is trying to overthrow.

Meanwhile, you also can't take on the military directly very often because modern militaries are so well trained and technologically superior that even if you get any significant foothold you will simply be hit by so many air strikes and cruise missiles that you will be killed off without even seeing your enemy. Point: we will never again be able to overthrow a government using conventional military tactics, unless of course a foreign nation is used or no one likes the nation you are overthrowing anyway.

Meanwhile, if you attack soft targets like schools and airplanes, while you may get your point across, your message is diluted by the carnage. Keep in mind, in some cases what looks like terrorism could just as easily be called isometric warfare. Superpowers have lost or fallen short in many of the wars in the last century or so because the rebelling forces have resorted to extreme tactics. The point is, terrorist tactics have a history of working if they are used correctly.

Furthermore, perhaps you shouldn't lose faith in an idea (in this case the chechen movement for independence) because of the actions of a select few (even though they do appear to have a large number in their ranks). If you believe in the cause, the evil actions of a few shouldnt disrupt your feelings for the large numbers who may still be putting their faith in more peaceful means.


Disclaimer: Personally I do not support the use of terrorist tactics, for I do not believe in the concept of the ends justifying the means. It would be very difficult to justify the targetted killing of innocents. Even further, I do not support the idea of chechen independence. I believe areas such as Chechnya and Taiwan should remain part of their larger governments (while kept as autonomous regions, as in paying a light tax for the military protection of the greater nation while having the ability to create their own laws and select their own leadership on the local level). Even more specifically, I actually LIKE Putin. I simply like to play the role of devil's advocate in conversations where there is a one-sided message.

Theres another side to every story.

I support a Chechen Republic, even if i dont think that killing children is the right way to get it. The Chechens have also been terrorized by the russians. I consider the recent attacks on russia Payback. If the Chechnyans want a contry, let them have it. More will die if russia doesent. The Chechnyans will just have to deal with thier problems on thier own.

And I suppose you said the same thing on September 11. As I think I pointed out, letting the Chechens have what they want would be a crime akin to suddenly telling the Palestinians "You can have the entire country, but all the infrastructure the Jews built will have to come down. As will all infrastructure dating from colonial and ottoman times. Have fun!" Because that's what it'd be. If Russia pulls out from Chechnya, Putin will also ensure that no one goes into Chechnya. He'll starve them to death in the ruins of their cities (because before the Russians were there, the Chechens had none), and then, when most of them are dead, re-take control.

This entire 'Independent Chechen Republic' thing is just a lie put about by Arab terrorists. Ask most real Chechen nationalists what their plans are once they're independent, and I bet you wouldn't get a single workable concept. The best they can hope for is a Singapore Hi-tech solution. But wait! Most of the educated people are either Russian, expats living in Russia or elsewhere, or dead! Hrmmm...

Ya, personally I don't see much of a need for Chechen independence. Maybe a little more autonomy, but no independence. I feel the same way for Taiwan (did you forget that its technically part of China?). In regards to Israel/Palestine, I believe it should be one democratic republic. Let the palestinian refugees return and be compensated for their lost land, and create a democracy instead of a Jewish state and whatever the heck they have planned for Palestine. Can we really say that they can't have an islamic state while we are supporting a jewish state in israel without looking like hypocrits? Our support for the Israeli theocracy and the Saudi Monarchy are what caused 9/11 after all!

Furthermore, perhaps you shouldn't lose faith in an idea (in this case the chechen movement for independence) because of the actions of a select few (even though they do appear to have a large number in their ranks). If you believe in the cause, the evil actions of a few shouldnt disrupt your feelings for the large numbers who may still be putting their faith in more peaceful means.

If I thought the moderate had any chance of success in reining in their fanatical brethren, I'd agree with you. But the moderate Chechens are also terrorised by the Arabs, much like much of the terrorism in Iraq comes from a rather pathetic foreign element. I don't think there will be peace in the region so long as traitors to their faith like Osama bin-Laden and other pathetic individuals can continue to support terrorism by Arabs in the name of 'Muslim Solidarity'.

The most scary thing about this is it isn't Islamic terrorism at all. Regardless of what the politically correct might say, this is most emphatically Arab Terrorism. It's the Arabs who drive the machines of terror in the name of Muslim solidarity, and people like the Chechens and Indonesians and Kurds get caught up in it.


Disclaimer: Personally I do not support the use of terrorist tactics, for I do not believe in the concept of the ends justifying the means. It would be very difficult to justify the targetted killing of innocents. Even further, I do not support the idea of chechen independence. I believe areas such as Chechnya and Taiwan should remain part of their larger governments (while kept as autonomous regions, as in paying a light tax for the military protection of the greater nation while having the ability to create their own laws and select their own leadership on the local level). Even more specifically, I actually LIKE Putin. I simply like to play the role of devil's advocate in conversations where there is a one-sided message.[/QUOTE]

I was under the impression that that was how the Republic System in the RF works?

And I suppose you said the same thing on September 11. As I think I pointed out, letting the Chechens have what they want would be a crime akin to suddenly telling the Palestinians "You can have the entire country, but all the infrastructure the Jews built will have to come down. As will all infrastructure dating from colonial and ottoman times. Have fun!" Because that's what it'd be. If Russia pulls out from Chechnya, Putin will also ensure that no one goes into Chechnya. He'll starve them to death in the ruins of their cities (because before the Russians were there, the Chechens had none), and then, when most of them are dead, re-take control.

This entire 'Independent Chechen Republic' thing is just a lie put about by Arab terrorists. Ask most real Chechen nationalists what their plans are once they're independent, and I bet you wouldn't get a single workable concept. The best they can hope for is a Singapore Hi-tech solution. But wait! Most of the educated people are either Russian, expats living in Russia or elsewhere, or dead! Hrmmm...

Then....i guess that the killing will never end, will it? Is it just a Lose-Lose situation, then? Neither side will give up until the other side is dead.

Once again, my political beliefs are proven correct (keep in mind that as far as I know I am the only one who actually stresses it like this). The only peaceful solution is to throw both sides so deep into outer space that they can't even consider fighting. Do you honestly think there will be peace on earth? Never will happen. So, make peace by expanding outside of the constraints of earth ;)

Well Putin has been quoted as saying "We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten" in response to the school tragedy, so I think that gives an indication as to what his response will be.
I can't see Russia ever being able to pull out now after this. I mean how could they? They would in effect be telling any and every separtist groups that this is the way to achieve their goals.

1) I am ashamed to admit this, but I once was a supporter of Chechen independence. I once looked upon it as similar to that of the IRA or the ETA, equated it with resistance to the Nazis.
1) So you equate the British and Spanish with the nazis?

2) What a fool I was.
2) Still are.

3) I have never been so shocked by any terrorist attack as the butchering that occured those days ago. The only way those scum could fall any lower in my regard would be if they had raped the children before butchering them. In the interests of common humanity and fellow feeling, my entire support (for what it's worth) is behind Russian President Vladimir Putin. I no longer care.
3) Mercifully, some of us still care.


4) If Putin decides to call in the entire military might of the CIS to obliterate Chechen society and culture, he has my support.
4) So the death of those innocent children should be avenged with the same carnage waged on millions of other children?

5) If Putin places the entire 'republic' under federal rule and then shuts it down to all outsiders, my feelings will be 'at least no more Arabs can get in.' If he starts wearing a Stalin moustache, or reactivates the Okrahna, I will say 'well, at least we now know his inspiration.' Hell, if he starts to wear a Hitler moustache and talks about a 'Final Solution' to the 'Chechen Problem', I'll be the very last person you'll see protesting outside the Russian Embassy.
5) I'm sure you will, few people who submit to knee-jerk reactions come to see how much worse they make things.


6) He was right to say that this is International Terrorism more than Chechens, of course. According to current data, half of the terrorists were Arabs. My opinion on Arabs in general is, as is widely known, already rather low. (Though, I hasten to add, it's a hatred of Arabs in General. I rather like some Arabs, in Specifi)
6) Whereas a rational person would say they dislike a 'specific' few Arabs for certain inhumane acts and not the rest in general. This has very little to do with the sort of terror that King George spouts on about, although the methods are also those of guttersnipes. Ask yourself how much news you've read from Chechnya over the last few years. None. The reason for that is the continuing slaughter of Chechnyans by the Russian military


7) Don't get me wrong. I know that there are untold millions of Arabs which are deeply appalled by this action. I know some of them personally. But I am equally aware that a large, vocal minority not only supports this horrific outrage, but also helped to perpetrate it. This leaves one course of action clear, and I think I already mentioned it.
7) So you recant on your views regarding 'most' Arabs? I think you mean Muslims anyway. I'm interested to know how you are so aware that a 'large vocal minority' of Arabs helped to carry out this act of butchery. How many? 500,000?

8) The borders of this Chechen 'republic' must be sealed. The Arab terrorists are coming from the south, and they are the root cause of many of the current troubles.
8) See, this is where your ignorance of the place and situation shines through. The borders, as you put it have been sealed for years. The Chechnyans have no voice, the remnants of their elected government is under permanent seige, there is no press to alert the world and the Russian murder continues.

9) I say this because, as many people already can see, the entire thing is a theatre of the Absurd. Chechnya is no more viable as an independent state than Delaware!...no, I take that back. Delaware has lots of arable land. Chechnya already enjoys considerable autonomy, and its people are generally secure from being left to die. An independent Chechen republic would be full of people who had no money, no food, and no real security either.
9) You don't think the people of Chechnya have a right to disagree then? Does that mean the US should reincorperate itself into the United Kingdom?

10) And you know what? If they're that desperate for independence, Putin could always give it to them. Then immediately secure the Russian territories around it and send forces in to secure the borders to the south.
10) Well, here it looks like we agree.

11) Let them starve.
11) Spoken like a truly outraged humanist.

Theres another side to every story.

I support a Chechen Republic, even if i dont think that killing children is the right way to get it. The Chechens have also been terrorized by the russians. I consider the recent attacks on russia Payback. If the Chechnyans want a contry, let them have it. More will die if russia doesent. The Chechnyans will just have to deal with thier problems on thier own. If Chechnya was allowed independence from Russia, the entire Caucasus region would disintergrate along ethnic lines. The Caucasus is like the Balkans but twice as fragmented. It is simply not viable for each ethnic group to have their own state.

The terrorist atrocity in Beslan is not justified at all. The Chechens have dug their own grave by committing disgusting acts like that.

If Chechnya was allowed independence from Russia, the entire Caucasus region would disintergrate along ethnic lines. The Caucasus is like the Balkans but twice as fragmented. It is simply not viable for each ethnic group to have their own state.

The terrorist atrocity in Beslan is not justified at all. The Chechens have dug their own grave by committing disgusting acts like that.

Of course the cowardly butchery of innocents is not justified and never can be. However, if Putin continues the rape and pillage in Chechnya, the terror will increase, will spread accross the Caucuses and almost certainly into the Balkans. Do we have to wait for that?

I am ashamed to admit this, but I once was a supporter of Chechen independence. I once looked upon it as similar to that of the IRA or the ETA, equated it with resistance to the Nazis.

What a fool I was.

I have never been so shocked by any terrorist attack as the butchering that occured those days ago. The only way those scum could fall any lower in my regard would be if they had raped the children before butchering them. In the interests of common humanity and fellow feeling, my entire support (for what it's worth) is behind Russian President Vladimir Putin. I no longer care.
WTF? Let me get this straight you supported independence but you dont now because some of the people who also support independence commited crimes....?

If Putin decides to call in the entire military might of the CIS to obliterate Chechen society and culture, he has my support
This is just disgusting and abhorrent. You are suggesting that because one group of Chechynians victimised children who had not victimised them, that a whole nation including their children who have victimised no one be genocided. That is the most disgusting thing I have ever seen anyone post on the internet. Your reasoning is worse than that of the Chechyan terrorist, they only want to wipe as many Russians as is needed to convince Russia to leave them to their independence (a stance that is utterly abhorrent), where as you wish to destroy all Chechyans, women children, elderly, the good and innocent along with the minority element of criminals.

Hell, if he starts to wear a Hitler moustache and talks about a 'Final Solution' to the 'Chechen Problem', I'll be the very last person you'll see protesting outside the Russian Embassy.
Aha, well you are clearly either evil or sick, get help fast.

He was right to say that this is International Terrorism more than Chechens, of course. According to current data, half of the terrorists were Arabs. My opinion on Arabs in general is, as is widely known, already rather low. (Though, I hasten to add, it's a hatred of Arabs in General. I rather like some Arabs, in Specifi
He's right based on what independently verified information, or does the word of a government of a nation in which misinformation and propaganda is a long standing tradition convince you without further investigation?
Do me a favour and please explain why you think every Chechyan child should be murdered by Putin if half of the people involved in this act were not even Chechyan.

As I think I pointed out, letting the Chechens have what they want would be a crime akin to suddenly telling the Palestinians "You can have the entire country, but all the infrastructure the Jews built will have to come down. As will all infrastructure dating from colonial and ottoman times. Have fun!" Because that's what it'd be. If Russia pulls out from Chechnya, Putin will also ensure that no one goes into Chechnya. He'll starve them to death in the ruins of their cities (because before the Russians were there, the Chechens had none), and then, when most of them are dead, re-take control.
Well that's nice isnt it. Be ruled by Russia or we will destroy all the infrastructure that for all anyone can prove may have been built by the Chechnyans themselves if Russia had not interferred with them, and then surround your terrritory until you starve to death...that is just sucky.

Ask most real Chechen nationalists what their plans are once they're independent, and I bet you wouldn't get a single workable concept.
Really, and do you think a couple of hundreds years ago the idea of a democracy where even people who dont own substantial amounts of land get an equal vote as to who holds leadership was considered anything other than insanity and utterly unworkable to those on the sidelines?

Ya, personally I don't see much of a need for Chechen independence. Maybe a little more autonomy, but no independence. I feel the same way for Taiwan (did you forget that its technically part of China?).
Might that be because you are not Chechyen or Taiwanese?

In regards to Israel/Palestine, I believe it should be one democratic republic. Let the palestinian refugees return and be compensated for their lost land, and create a democracy instead of a Jewish state and whatever the heck they have planned for Palestine. Can we really say that they can't have an islamic state while we are supporting a jewish state in israel without looking like hypocrits?
I dont think either the Palestinians or the Israelis would accept this solution.

If Chechnya was allowed independence from Russia, the entire Caucasus region would disintergrate along ethnic lines. The Caucasus is like the Balkans but twice as fragmented. It is simply not viable for each ethnic group to have their own state.
Then perhaps we need to reconsider the very recent invention of nation states and look at alternative nation forms in those places where nation states are not feasable.

The terrorist atrocity in Beslan is not justified at all. The Chechens have dug their own grave by committing disgusting acts like that.
Attacking innocent people is not in any way justified at all, that much should be obvious to anyone with any claim to moral decency, but that is not the point. All murder is unjustified, should we consider that all nations whose civilians include murderers have dug their own graves? Why is that not all Americans are guilty of murdering JFK for instance, but all Chechyens are considered responsible for the acts of this insane few?

The IRA!
So you support an organisation that ignores democratic elections that have time and again shown they are in the minority. You support an organisation that murders people because they work on a building that will be used by the police? You support putting nail bombs in pubs and public parades? You support and organisation that is part funded by protection rackets and organised crime? You support driving nails through the knee caps of teenage boys?
Hmm, like the worl you live in. Let's hope some small group doesn't decide that Texas should have self rule and split from the use and use murder of any one that support the US Gov to bring about it's aims. Or if you are not from the US (and I doubt you are from the UK) change Texas for any county, citiy etc that has some historic half assed cliam to indipenance. P.S sorry about the crap spelling but I'm in a rush.

Kirtondom, considering your comments are directed at someone who supports genocide, and would be happy to see a Hitler-esque 'final solution' applied to the people of Chechynia, do you really think they would halt at supporting the IRA. I mean if you dont object to genocide, murders in numbers less than 'an entire ethnic group or nation' are likely to slip below the radar dont you think?

Kirtondom, considering your comments are directed at someone who supports genocide, and would be happy to see a Hitler-esque 'final solution' applied to the people of Chechynia, do you really think they would halt at supporting the IRA. I mean if you dont object to genocide, murders in numbers less than 'an entire ethnic group or nation' are likely to slip below the radar dont you think?
Well you can but point these things out. I don't want to insult the population of the US as a whole but have found that many there are completly ignorant of what really went on in Northern Ireland. I don't take sides as it does not affect me directly other than the odd time when bombs have gone off at places I have been or where relatives were. Maybe I will log on as my other self and be a little more direct with my comments.

The IRA!
So you support an organisation that ignores democratic elections that have time and again shown they are in the minority. You support an organisation that murders people because they work on a building that will be used by the police?

So far so good. 'Democratic elections' are frequent the result of biased mass media, few people actually voting, and uninformed voters. Democracy, in the form that is proclaimed by our world leaders, is highly overrated.

If you are going to go as extreme as trying to attack a government (I wouldn't exactly recommend it, ESPECIALLY THE UK! pick a weaker government), why wouldn't you attack a police building, especially before its been built (when its an easier target to destroy). Not only are the people working on building the police building clearly not helping your cause, they are even furthering the power of the government you are attacking.

You support putting nail bombs in pubs and public parades?

My opinion there varies. If this is a public parade saying the enemy is wonderful, then go ahead. Chances are highly favorable that people at the parade are your enemy. Now, if the parade is just a religious or cultural holiday, you should probably leave it alone or possibly even warn publicly that you support it so no one in your ranks tries to attack it.
As far as putting bombs in pubs, that is a legitimate means if your opposition is in it or at least frequently in it. Random pubs? No.

You support and organisation that is part funded by protection rackets and organised crime?

Well, its impossible to fund a contra-government movement legally, so while its saddening, its acceptable.

You support driving nails through the knee caps of teenage boys?

No, hell no. And by this I assume you mean innocent teenage boys and not teenage boys who knew it was coming but still refused to pay for the drugs they wanted. Even then it shouldn't come across as your movement, it should be seen as the drug rings. Teenage boys should be the ones you target for your propaganda and they should in turn be used to spread it. They should never be your indiscriminate targets...

Hmm, like the worl you live in. Let's hope some small group doesn't decide that Texas should have self rule and split from the use and use murder of any one that support the US Gov to bring about it's aims. Or if you are not from the US (and I doubt you are from the UK) change Texas for any county, citiy etc that has some historic half assed cliam to indipenance. P.S sorry about the crap spelling but I'm in a rush.

Well, in the example of Texas, we certainly shouldn't worry about them wanting to break off. Since texans seem to have controlled the US govt ever since JFK died (or earlier, thats just the greatest turning point that I'm aware of), we don't have to worry about them breaking off. They seem quite content controlling the rest of us. Anyhow, if a group wants to break away from a larger government, it would be nice if they did so as peacefully as possible until it becomes clear that there is no other choice. Furthermore, if they seriously want to break off, they should really have a good reason for doing so. I figure the next logic civil war in the US involves the NorthEast or the West breaking off from the rest of the country due to the backwards domination of the hyper religious South. Or perhaps it will happen with the South breaking off once their agenda fails.

If you are going to go as extreme as trying to attack a government (I wouldn't exactly recommend it, ESPECIALLY THE UK! pick a weaker government), why wouldn't you attack a police building, especially before its been built (when its an easier target to destroy). Not only are the people working on building the police building clearly not helping your cause, they are even furthering the power of the government you are attacking.
The poster didnt say they attacked a building, they said that they murdered people who were employed to build it.

My opinion there varies. If this is a public parade saying the enemy is wonderful, then go ahead. Chances are highly favorable that people at the parade are your enemy. Now, if the parade is just a religious or cultural holiday, you should probably leave it alone or possibly even warn publicly that you support it so no one in your ranks tries to attack it.
And never mind the passing pregnant woman and her elderly mother...

As far as putting bombs in pubs, that is a legitimate means if your opposition is in it or at least frequently in it. Random pubs? No.
Well Osama bin Laden's opposition frequented the world trade center, so I guess you think flying planes into them was ok, and clearly the attack on the Pentagon cannot in any way be criticised since that's where his opposition is. And hey the 'non-enemies' in the pub, like the young engaged students barely out of their teens who dropped in for a cold one, the tourists who thought a night at a genuine Irish pub was just what they needed, tough for them....



Well, its impossible to fund a contra-government movement legally, so while its saddening, its acceptable.
So it would be fine in your mind for a group of anti-government US citizens to use their 'contra-government' status as an excuse to sell drugs to children?

Quote:
You support driving nails through the knee caps of teenage boys?
No, hell no. And by this I assume you mean innocent teenage boys and not teenage boys who knew it was coming but still refused to pay for the drugs they wanted. Even then it shouldn't come across as your movement, it should be seen as the drug rings. Teenage boys should be the ones you target for your propaganda and they should in turn be used to spread it. They should never be your indiscriminate targets...
Oh great so a drug dealer sells drugs to a young impressionable and vulnerable child (who also happens to live with the trauma of life in a virtual war zone) and then when the consumption of drugs goes beyond their means to pay, then it's ok to drive nails into the knee caps of the young teenaged child? Adults should not be selling drugs to children, children should have no access to drugs, and if some unscrupulous scum gets a child hooked on drugs, that is evil, and so is putting nails in their knees, it is not as you imply the earned consequence on the part of the child who should never have been exposed (during their childhood) to drugs anyway. Why are drugs illegal even for adults, because even adults are not considered equipped to monitor their own well being in relation to drugs. It stands to reason if adults cannot be sensible about drugs, we have no right to expect children to be.

It seems to me that you are a hypocrite, you claim in your earlier post that murdering people in order to achieve a cause is not acceptable, I suggest many children have died as a result of the very activities you condone (such as nail bombs in pubs and at parades). You think blowing up pubs with whoever happens to be inside, if the pub is frequented by your 'opposition', is ok, but one could apply that rationale to the 9/11 attacks and they would be according to your stated opinion with regards to the IRA, totally justified and legitmate. Maybe you think the actual cause is the legitimising factor, but I ask you who decides when a cause justifies murder, including the indiscrimate kind that results from blowing up buildings?

Still I guess condoning a bit of indiscriminate murder is small fries next to advocating genocide...

First off, yes, I am a hypocrit. But to explain my hypocritical stance, you must realize that I am not actually expressing my views per se, but rather playing devil's advocate and expressing theoretical views with the assumption that the rebellion is a legitimate one against some truly tyranical force which has grown too strong to be dealt with conventionally. I am trying to view it from the eyes of the enemy.

From Osama's perspective, attacking the world trade center and pentagon certainly was justified, since the USA supports Saudi Arabia and Israel, the two regimes he originally started out hating. Likewise, attacking the people building a new police station for your enemy would also certainly be justified in the minds of a hard-core member of the IRA. What is their other option? Let the police station be built and have your enemy be that little bit stronger? Plus it lessens the desire of the populace to support the hostile government since they recognize the risk of getting killed.

From the terrorist's mind, a mind of desperation, lives are considered expendable. They will probably tell you that everyone dies some day anyway, that pain is an illusion (and for the religious, that suffering doesn't matter since good people will get into heaven anyway and the enemy will probably go to hell where they will continue to be tortured), and then the idiots would just say that the ends justifies the means. (Personally I don't believe that an ends ever comes, so the means must justify themselves, but that runs contrary to the conversation, which is the perspective of those who see terrorism as a worthy means).

Any religion based on Judaaism, aka Christianity or Islam, has the ability to glorify murder and war in the good of pushing forth the group's agenda. Need proof? Just look in the old testament where the Jews, after just being told not to murder, go about following 'the will of God,' killing everyone who they think are unfit (or generally in the way of their zionist homeland dream). Heck, they even lie to their enemies who simply want to join with the Jews (I don't remember the exact passage in the bible, nor do i care, if you really want to know where it is, start reading the old testament. If you are like me, you will get sick of it about two thirds through, but you will have found the story by then). They convince the men of the town to get circumsized, and the following day they sweep the town and massacre all the men, who apparently can't fight due to the circumcision. All in the name of God. I do not recall whether or not they killed the women and children in that town or not, it doesn't really matter. The fact is, any religion based on Judaaism can find a way to justify violence and massacre of innocents.

First off, yes, I am a hypocrit. But to explain my hypocritical stance, you must realize that I am not actually expressing my views per se, but rather playing devil's advocate and expressing theoretical views with the assumption that the rebellion is a legitimate one against some truly tyranical force which has grown too strong to be dealt with conventionally. I am trying to view it from the eyes of the enemy.

None of which explains why the IRA murdering people indiscriminately is any better then the Chechyn seperatest terrorist murdering people indiscriminately. If these theories can be extended to justify the killings done by some then why not the killings done by all? My strongest point is shock that someone would support one group of terrorists who are murderers while stating that an entire ethnic group should be wiped off the face of the earth because some of the members of that group murdering terrorists - actually scrp that, my strongest point is shock that someone is actually advocating genocide for any reason...

I wish people would stop going on about the number of 'arabs' in the Beslan incident. Reports of Arabs in the group have been discredited by most mainstream media already.

None of which explains why the IRA murdering people indiscriminately is any better then the Chechyn seperatest terrorist murdering people indiscriminately. If these theories can be extended to justify the killings done by some then why not the killings done by all? My strongest point is shock that someone would support one group of terrorists who are murderers while stating that an entire ethnic group should be wiped off the face of the earth because some of the members of that group murdering terrorists - actually scrp that, my strongest point is shock that someone is actually advocating genocide for any reason...

First off, was that directed towards me? Cuz I was basically just suggesting that its easier to justify targeting an actual military or political target than targeting a damn school (ok, so truthfully i approached this from many more angles than that, but thats the one in my mind right now)... I guess I was saying that the IRA could justify a FEW of their actions a little easier than the actions that the original poster highlighted in regards to the Chechens (as in they were murdering a little more discriminately than the Chechens). Basically, from the mind of even a lesser terrorist, you could justify the killing done by any group that is even moderately selective. All it takes is that damn 'ends justifies the means' mindset.

While I personally couldn't justify genocide for any reason (then again, my true personal theories say you should peacefully work and manipulate whatever system you are in until you succeed or at least are in power - which in turn gives you the ability to enact positive change), historically it has been fairly easier to ignite and 'justify.' All it takes is an ignorant populace (hey! the USA is heading that way!), differences among the populace (the USA contains plenty of those to choose from), and the us vs them mentality (which CLEARLY exists in the USA). Wait a second, it doesn't even take an ignorant population, it just takes a docile one (just think of the press in the USA a few months ago when they basically did whatever Bush told them to so they didnt lose access to the press conferences). Basically, anyone who seriously wanted to could start up genocide in the United States, so long as he could find a small handful of machiavellian-minded friends to use as a base. Clearly machiavellian-minded friends aren't all that hard to find, heck, Bush seems surrounded by them. Luckily for the world, Bush chose war with Iraq over genocide, but perhaps you would put the Iraqi war and genocide in a similar boat anyway?

For further proof of society's tolerance of genocide, look at Darfur right now or Rwanda a few years ago, and you can see that most Western nations aren't willing to recognize genocide and actually try to stop it until its way too late. At which point, they say never again, again.